 Welcome back, it's still the breakfast in Plus TV Africa. The term copyright is a legal one. He used to describe the rights that creators have over their literary and statistic work. Work covered by copyright ranges from books, you know, to music, paintings, sculpture and films to computer programs, databases, advertisements like what you see on Plus TV Africa. Maps and technical drawings, yeah. It is the exclusive and assignable legal right given to the originator for a fixed number of years to print, publish, perform, film or record literary, artistic or musical material. Now the internet, you know, it said that it has allowed consumers across the world, across the globe to access information easily and with fewer boundaries. Yeah, this same tool, the internet, has allowed consumers to access and even reproduce works without adhering to copyright requirements. I mean, because the music downloads and all that, you can just get it off some sites without paying anything. How are copyright laws in Nigeria dealing with this global problem? How is the Nigerian law protected copyright owners? Now, the Director General of the Nigerian Communications, sorry, Copyrights Commission, NCC, Dr. John Assain has recently said, quote, the creative sector is the next oil well for the country and may in fact be the only oil well that will never be exhausted in the nearest future as long as humans remain on earth. Now for that reason, he believes Nigeria must design its own model to fit its peculiarities in the creative sector. I said this as a recent meeting between select stakeholders in the broadcast media, hotel, creative and legal sectors in Lagos, Nigeria and the Nigerian Copyright Commission, the Audiovisual Rights Society of Nigeria, Musical Copyright Society of Nigeria and the Reproduction Rights Society of Nigeria, the nation's copyright collective management organizations for audiovisual musical and literary work. He asked earlier, asked earlier how we asked earlier rather how Nigeria's copyright regulations are dealing with the global problems affecting the creative sector. I'm glad to say joining us for a conversation on this very important subject, Manoa Kikeko. It's a journalist who joins us, Vasu, from Badagri in Lagos, Nigeria. Manoa Kikeko, good morning to you. Thank you very much. Do you agree with the NCC, the Nigeria Copyright Commission's DG, that the creative sector has a nation's next oil well? Of course, when I saw the quote, I was very, very happy because from what we've been seeing and the analogy to me is very, very nice word. When you talk about a situation where the intellectual properties and the people that are creating it are no well recognized or being paid in terms of their contribution to knowledge. No, we can simply be as referred to like when oil company takes our oil and they don't pay for it. It can simply be seen as oil theft. So today now we have seen how in Nigeria how the intellectual property are no well referenced in terms of some writings and all in terms of other music and movies where they are not the consent of the providers. The first creator is not being recognized. So in terms of the knowledge, this sector being an oil well because we can see today Nigeria is most especially we are going places in terms of knowledge contribution in terms of entertainment industry. This industry has been building the image of Nigeria. In terms of technologies, sorry, in terms of writings and movies, Nigerian industries are going places and today we can say in short time it's going to be a very, very important source of income for Nigeria, apart from that boosting the image of Nigeria. So which can be said to be economically viable in nearest future. So that's why I can, I have seen this, Dr. John, I sense analogies are very, very, very good in terms of knowledge intellectual property. All right. So but do you think that we're doing enough, you know, you have stakeholders now and it's a good thing that that meeting actually happened. And do you think that, you know, in Nigeria we're doing enough to protect intellectual property? In terms of that, in terms of people, we are not really in terms of. So that's why I am very, very happy in terms of the building. I was just passing six of the six of every million in the week, which is a new number at point 22, which was majorly where all kind of point to improve. Stainting the right of the providers and all other things that will improve, give the contribution of these properties the right and give them the strength to fight for their right and to protect their property. In terms of this, Nigeria, I think we should, the government, the government should do more in enforcing this act, because today we can see a lot of music that are being pirated, a lot of books without the consent of the, and the government is not doing enough to penalize those people that are doing that. From the meeting too, I saw a point that was made by ship Samuel Oalabi where he said the major factor that should also be addressed is sensitizing the providers, the owners of this knowledge and the users on the impotency of their right, because that's another thing that is affecting the circle. Some people who are providing this knowledge, they don't really know what their right is. Even if these pirates, those who are pirating these ideas, they know that their works are being used illegally, but they don't know how the institutions to visit in terms of demanding for their right. And this meeting that was held lately is a good idea, but on my own part, I don't think it should be a meeting that will be held once in a while. It should be a meeting where stakeholders who come brings up their challenge that they've been facing in terms of providing intellectual properties and at the same time they should bring up mechanisms that will try to listen to the views of the users of this property. Manawa, it's an interesting subject and some points you raised. I'm happy you talked about the new copyright law in Nigeria and you're expressing indeed optimism that this law will signal the new day for copyright owners in the country, but you've also talked about implementation. That's very interesting that you're saying apart from having laws, there must be enforcement. Then just put the laws on paper and go to bed and show that the laws are ahead too. In terms of enforcement, I'm sure you remember some years ago, maybe about a decade or so over a decade ago, I mean on national television we had pictures and videos of officials from the MCC, the MCSN, the Musical Copyright Society of Nigeria going to Alaba International Market to go to shops and stores where you had fake CDs or musical CDs to confiscate and destroy them. I'm sure you remember that. This is 2022, times have changed, artists don't longer print as many CDs. I don't even bother about that. As much as they used to back in the day, it's more digital now. You can stream, you can download, those are how people, that's how a lot of people consume your music these days. What do you think this change in the consumption pattern, the power of the internet, the opportunities the internet presents for music streaming, music downloads. Do you think this is presented new challenges? Because we mentioned that in our intro, the internet has presented new challenges. And how can these challenges be overcome in terms of the law? Do you think the law covers it adequately? And also implementation because there's no longer going to Alaba to burn CDs. It's times a different ballgame altogether. Yeah, it's a serious challenge. It's a serious challenge in terms of enforcing the law because of the technology that is in the system now. But we can always see it too in what happened. I don't know if you are aware of what happened. How Taiwan intend to enforce people that are trying to boycott the means of pain before they get a view. There's a the on board where people use is a channel that is being used where people boycott the official and the well known channels that they use, which is a paper. And fortunately, the government was able to come with come up with a mechanisms that was able to checkmate this type of system in the sense that they were able to bring up softwares that will control the providers of this information in terms of what you talk about sites or some channels that would provide this information to the people in the sense that they can look at the development we have had in IT sector now. I think the government, if they want to enforce this law, this act, there should be a drastic improvement in terms of our IT sector whereby they can optimize the site that are providing this information to the sites whereby the people that are going to download the music or the video or the movie, we won't have option than to pay. In terms of my own view, I think this will be even to some extent easier to address than the previous one where they would just go and burn it on CD. But now what I'm trying to say is that when you are trying to access a website to download the music, they can always protect it in the sense that if you have not paid, you can't have access to it. That's one aspect I think the government have to do as much in terms of liaising with the internet sector by the site providing this information and the LCC coming up with possibly a branch in the sector that will be monitoring specifically on how these people will be downloading this intellectual property and the government will get the right to what they need. All right. So you have mentioned that it's important that the government steps in to ensure that people are doing the right thing. There should be some collaboration, level of collaboration with the government and the relevant stakeholders to protect the creative sector, especially those who have intellectual property. But do you think that information, the people know the need or the importance of not bridging the law? I mean they understand what theft of intellectual property is because I know, for instance, as much as the software that we use, this software that we use on our computers or laptop, whatever it is that you call it, some of them are pirated. We don't pay for it. So don't you think that we need a different culture because it might just be a cultural thing where we're used to getting things for free. People are not really used to paying for things. You just get it. You find a way to get it. To get an original software of the things that you need on your computer installed, we just have it differently. So don't you think that it's a cultural thing and do we have enough information? You're talking about, it's a very important one. You're talking about, for instance, operating system. To get an operating system, how many people even, I don't know if you have, do you have an original operating system on your laptop? Or do you have an original Microsoft word on your computer? No, let's not mention this. Don't ask me. I'm asking you. People go for crack. But I know crack now. You know crack. When he said, when he, when he said to you, you know, burning in the city, I said, this guy, he's a suspect. You know, so if you know crack, he means you're a suspect. You know, so I think that's the basis of talking about a very interesting thing. You know, yeah. So, so, so do you think that, you know, the issue that we're faced with right now is that the people understand? Do we have enough information? And do you also think that it's also a cultural thing? Because we in this climate, we're used to getting, we don't pay for things even as shows. They are some part of the country where in Nigeria, so speak, people are not interested in you say you have a show, you have to pay, you have to pay tickets, you know, to get to a show. It's not, you know, common. It's not part of our culture. We're used to just going to things and get things free. So I'd like to share your thoughts based on this premise. Yeah, thank you for that. That's the fact that we are getting used to the wrong thing. And it is becoming a culture. And at the same time, we'd be, if the government can, what I'm trying to say is that, you know, I don't believe something that can just happen immediately or a drastic move that will change everything immediately. I think it's going to be a gradual thing. But we can't take the wrong thing. It's becoming, I think it's becoming the norm, the necessity, and it's becoming a culture. And it's wrong. When the right thing is becoming up, the government is trying to implement it. At one point or the other, the people who have to adapt to it and it will also become a culture. So the question is, do the people know that it's wrong for you to just download movies where you didn't pay for? You just go to a site and you're getting movies and you're downloading music without paying for it? Do people know these things? That's the question. Do people know that it is wrong to get, do people, do Nigerians really know that it's wrong for you to get crack versions of this operating system and softwares that they use on their computers? Exactly. That's what, that's when what a, a chief somewhere, Oala Bistad would come in at the meeting was saying that there's need to enlighten the people, even the providers and users of the, of this intellectual property, to enlighten them on the right, on their right. And at the same time, you enlighten the users on the, the wrong aspect, how they've been using it wrongly. On, in response to your question, some people don't know that they are doing the right thing, but some people know they are doing the wrong thing. But since that is a, is a short cut, people today, you know, people prefer the short cut and who don't, where they wouldn't have to pay all these things. Some people know they are doing the wrong thing, but they have seen it as a means to, but meanwhile, some people don't know. So that's where they need to enlighten the people. And in, in a situation whereby the people, to some extent, the enlightenment has gone viral. If somebody is eventually caught in the act, you won't have the skills to say you are, I'm not aware all these things. You think that this, cause you talked about, you know, enforcement, it can be totally eradicated because the message is talking about awareness. And she's also talking about culture, you know, have a culture of not paying for these things in this part of the world. And indeed, it's a global phenomenon. It's not just limited to Nigeria. It's all over the world. You know, I remember the days when you had the Pirate Bay, you know, where you could go to Pirate Bay, it was a global phenomenon. It wasn't even a big thing in Nigeria, but it was a big thing all over the world, where you could go to Pirate Bay and get, you know, anything you wanted to download, whether it was series, books, whatever, you know, for free. There's another gentleman who was, was based, I think, in New Zealand. The authorities, they had to go and arrest him with a helicopter. He made so much money, you know, from having something like that, a website, a pirate website where you could download anything. It was an issue. So is it something that can be eradicated? Seeing the global scale of it, with the introduction of the internet and, you know, how fast the internet is growing, internet access from the comfort of your home with a mobile phone now, 5G is coming. Can it be totally eradicated, you know, even if you enlighten people from now to Kingdom come, you know, will it be people who have access to these things, FZs, movies.net and all the sites where you can go download the series? How do you know that? Where's his laughing? I did my research before coming, but I don't know why you're laughing. I'm just amazed. So it can be totally eradicated. And truthfully, can it be? Really. I don't know. I don't think it can be totally eradicated. Because the reason is, you know, technology is evolving every now and then. You know, when you try to block what means, before you know, some people will look for a loophole so that they will get something out free at one point or the other. But what I'm just trying to say can be minimized. And in a couple of times, because even if it's going to be checked, it's not going to happen as I said earlier, it's not going to happen immediately as they go. It's going to be a gradual process and a consistent something. All right. Are there creative ways? Yeah. You know, since this is a very, very tall order, it's a battle that cannot be won in this entirety. Are there creative ways that are being employed around the world that, you know, can be employed in Nigeria to at least get the copyright infringements reduced to a reasonable extent? You know, to a reasonable extent? Yeah. As I said earlier, from the analogy of the Taiwan I made, it can be seen around the world. It's not only Nigeria that is facing this challenge. It's all happening around the world. These countries we are looking at have been trying as much as they can to minimize it. And at the same time, none of them has been able to totally eradicate it. It's just, majorly, they are trying as much as they can to reduce it and to make sure the providers of the intellectual properties are getting their right. So what we have seen so far now is that the government have to improve in the sectors at the same time in enforcing this law. Because in the day-on-day, several people have been plouncing the law, going against doing a lot of things that is not proper in terms of the way they use intellectual property and they go away with it. You know, people will feel like since people have been doing it and not deserve it, they really can do it and not work. But in the situation whereby there have been examples where people have been penalized and it's been broadcasted, people saw it like that this is a offense and it has been sentenced for years for the purpose of charge so amounts of money. You know, these are the one thing they want to enjoy is that before people can really comply to a particular rule or regulation, some people must have been used, for example, and people will say that seriously, these people are really mean business. So these are the things basically that are COVID to some extent. All right. We'd like to thank you very much for your time. Manoa Kikeko, who is a journalist, joining us on this discussion on the breakfast this morning. Thank you. All right, we have to move on. Merci. We have more conversations ahead this morning. All right, stay with us. When we return, we'll be looking at, you know, the issue of 2023 elections and all of the energy that we've been experiencing. Stay with us.