 Today we're going to talk about Chloe Ailing. She's a British fashion model and in 2017 she was kidnapped. Greg wanted to tell us about the videos we're going to see. These interviews are with Ian from 60 Minutes Australia and she's telling a story of where she was kidnapped when she went to a photo shoot, held as a hostage, going to be sold as a sex slave and then led out on some kind of a control release program where she would pay back the money. She thought it was Andre's studio, but it was empty. I about to put my hand on the door that said studio just to open it to check if anyone was there and that's when I was attacked from behind. One person put his armour on my neck and the other hand with a glove on my mouth and my nose and another masked man rushed in front of me and held a syringe to my arm. Obviously I was trying to fight back because I didn't want that to go into my arm. I was trying to make fast but I can't fight off two grown men so they managed to get the syringe into my wrist and then I was unconscious. What were you injected with? Ketterman. Ketterman can be a party drug though, can't it? Have you ever had it before? No. I don't do drugs. I don't even drink really. We now know the masked men were two Polish-born brothers. 30-year-old Lucas Herber and 36-year-old Michael Herber. The brothers allegedly gagged and handcuffed the unconscious Chloe, into a duffel bag and threw her into the boot of their car. They then drove to a secluded farmhouse outside Milan. I open my eyes and I have like restrictions on my mouth. Like I didn't know when it was at first. I had hands in my handcuffs and I was like trying to feel where I am. I heard the engine so I knew I was in a moving car. I was shouting driver, driver, like as loud as I could. They told you to what? Be quiet? They didn't say anything. Didn't say a word? Not a word. All right. If you don't know who we are, we're the behavior panel. And I'm Scott Rouse. I'm a body language expert and analyst. And I train law enforcement and the military in interrogation and body language. And I created the number one online body language course, BodyLanguageTactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. Help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility. Every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years of U.S. military. I wrote the number one bestselling book on behavior profiling, persuasion, and influence. And I teach people those things every day. Greg. Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, written 10 books on body language and behavior and put together this number one body language tactics.com course with Scott Rouse. All right. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, really interesting. So on the story and we'll come to the story in a second, but there's some shading of the eyes. That's when the eyes just come down. They don't tend to look at the interviewer or they look down and away. That's often can be in alongside some other indicators, a signal of some kind of stress and maybe then therefore deception. There's some instability in the shoulders. They kind of move around. So the story may be a little bit unstable. So couple of indicators there. Really, you know, for me, those two really not enough for deception at this particular point, but worth worth thinking about, worth looking at. No, she says. No, I don't do drugs. I don't even drink really. Well, no, would have been fine. So no, would have been fine. So maybe some deception about whether she's done drugs or not. She probably has, whether it's been ketamine. I really don't know. But she, but she drinks clearly because you wouldn't need to, you know, like no, would be fine. No, would be fine. You don't have to bring in the drinking and distract with that. Look, however, not a bad start because if I ignore some other stuff that's going on, I would say there's some elements of the story that she's quite clear about. You know, it kind of rolls along quite well. It's got a good, quite a good kind of rhythm and roll to it. And there's not too much detail in there, but there seems to be kind of enough. So, you know, up the start, it feels to me like, OK, I'll listen a bit more to this. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt upfront just based on that, that video there. I'll give it, I'll give it a go. I'll watch some more and see what happens. OK, Chase, what do you got on this one? There's something off about this. And I bet as you watched it just now, I bet you felt it too. There's very little emotion in this video and something like this should trigger some emotional response in most people. This is called trauma recall. When something's traumatic, repeating it doesn't desensitize it to the trauma. It desensitizes the person to the story of the trauma. If it works the other way around, this would be the most commonly practiced therapy in the world. And it's not. So she's moving, I recall positions here. This might be common in many people, but it's not in her baseline. So she's moving her eyes in different directions to access information that are outside of her baseline. And when she's saying that's when I was attacked from behind, there's the unusual avoidance of eye contact or emotional movement of the face. And yes, I promise you all four of us have heard of Botox before. There's a confirmation glance that's more likely to be deceptive if it follows a statement than before it. So if a person makes a statement and then does a confirmation glance to the interviewer, that makes it more likely to be a deceptive behavior. And write it. You probably noticed the little strange smile throughout this video. I want you to keep that in mind for later. And the description of the struggle sounds very similar to some that we've heard before, like Mr. Smollett, for example, it lacks detail. It lacks emotional reaction only contains body narration with this pulling away movement. I'm not a forensics expert, but I have seen someone struggle against an injection before. And police said there was a single clean needle mark on her wrist. And that's not what I would maybe imagine it would look like in a struggle. Also a quick fun fact. Forensic toxicologists found no ketamine in her urine at all. And ketamine can stay in your system for up to eight weeks. So I've got a very long list of how to perform this perfect statement analysis that I don't share. However, while we go through these videos, I'm going to reveal one of these techniques that's relevant to the current clip that we're watching. So this one's number 39 from my list. I think this is the longest I've ever gone. I apologize. Reproduction of speech. Does the person willingly without prodding reproduce speech elements of the story? Or are they glossed over and summarized? Which one is it? Scott, what do you got? All right. She shows a really odd illustrator here when she's when she's first starts going to the part about being when I was attacked from behind. Quite often you see a woman especially expose their wrist. They're being honest and open and they're trying to connect with you and they they they have feelings towards you. But when she does this, her hands are closed. So it's really odd to see that because quite often someone's hands are closed. We associate that with someone holding something back and maybe being used as an adapter or something. There's that means or would suggest there's an issue there. So seeing that and hearing what she's saying. If I was talking to her of these Italian police officers were talking to her, that's where they should jump in and just eat her lunch at that point. Because from the get go from out of the gate, you feel the people watching the person watching this. You can feel something's wrong. You just don't know what yet and that's part of it. You're seeing these things that tell you something just isn't right here. Now the description she has that she gives is too detailed. There are too many details with something that was supposedly happened so fast and is so violent and it would scare the you know what out of her. So when somebody comes in, they start telling you nanosecond by nanosecond every move that was made. Somebody tied me from behind. Somebody had a glove on. They put it around my nose and my mouth and then she goes on with this big long story. That's not how you would say that. You would say these guys tried to inject me with something. What are you talking about? They grabbed me and tried to stick something, tried to put a needle in me, tried to put something in me. What are you talking about? And they'd go on. They'd finally get down while standing there. What happened? Yeah, they came up from behind and somebody grabbed me and they tried to put a they tried. There's a more than one. That's the way those stories go. And now she's told this story a lot. But there's she still wouldn't go into all these nanosecond by nanosecond details because she wouldn't remember them like that in that and even in that order quite often you hear somebody's gone through something so traumatic. If you saw this, like I said before it, you would just say somebody jumped me and or somebody tried to give me a shot or tried to inject me with something that would be your jump off point. And then you would go backwards with what happened. Most of the time when I heard stories like this, not necessarily about someone being injected, but when something happens there's a lot of action going on, a lot of adrenaline happening. They don't start with the little details of it. They show you the big picture even when they're telling someone else about it a week or a year later. Yeah, they'll get a little more detail, they'll go nanosecond to nanosecond. When they're talking about ketamine, she knows what ketamine is and it's not ketamine and I think she knows that. He may not know that. I have no idea. I never heard anybody call it ketamine. Is that the way they say it in England? If possible, throw away some vowels and some letters and say anything, any word as fast as you can. That's English. Okay, great. So when they're talking about the ketamine, she knows what it is and that's why we see Dupers Delight. Let's shout out to Cal Dunion there. He's always talking about Dupers Delight. But we see just a little smile there where she talks about the drugs and the drinking, those kinds of things. So I don't feel like at all this is being truthful. I think we're seeing so much deception there. It's ridiculous. My main concern here, though, is Ian because if you look at his pupils, they're blown out like most Japanese anime characters. I mean, he looks like he might be on ketamine at this point. I mean, look at him. It's just these dark black holes you could just reach into and grab part of his brain from there. So look at that. It's really, really odd, really weird. I'm kind of worried about him at this point. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'll give you two data points and I'll dive into a couple of things that you've all said, but give you some other data points for that. Number one, they did find ketamine residue in her hair or they found proof of it in her hair, which means she had used it, but there's no residue from the time frame to your point, Chase. These two boys, these two men are five years and 12 years in prison. They're current, what they're serving. So if she's telling the truth, they deserve it. If she's not, shame on her. Okay, let me give you a couple of data points. I've snatched a person or two in my life in real life, actually abducted them, including if you want to see a few of them, you can go watch on the History Channel where we can make you talk. That's me doing the abduction. I'm about 40 there, and I'm snatching grown men. I don't need help. Tell them why, Greg. Tell them why. Because that sounds good at all. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. So we did a thing for the History Channel called We Can Make You Talk, where we showed how people stand up to traditional world interrogation techniques. Keep them miserable, wet, all that. It's a really good experiment. People lasted less than 24 hours and they gave us their information. One guy traded all of his information for a cookie. Other people just said, hey, I don't want any more of this and quit. But it was me. I was the guy standing behind a curtain and when people walked by, we had a distraction, a camera in their face. And I just stepped up behind them, put my foot in the back of their knee, pushed them down, put my hand over their mouth and their nose, and put my arm around their neck. The next thing you know, guess what? Where your head goes, so goes your body. That's the way life works. And this woman, unless she's made out of cask, darned in alligators, I could snatch her around like a rag doll. She's small. I mean, even if she's 5'10", she's thin. And these were grown men when we were moving around. So think about that. Number one, it's ludicrous. It takes three men to abduct her. Number two, I'm going to tell you, we talk all the time about Maslow. Guess what's at the base of Maslow? Air, air, air. The minute I put my hand over your nose and your mouth and I got control of your head, all the rest of the stuff going around you, guess what? It disappears. Your brain goes air, air, air, air, air. Just like when you're drowning. So all those details that she's remembering are suspicious at this point. Anytime you challenge this woman at any point, you find that she gives a lot of detail. We know that people, when they're in a hostage situation, I worked here and we taught hostage survival for state and folks like that, we know that what happens, everything becomes black and white. And the only things that matter are the things that actually impact you. So all the details around you start to fall apart. So all those things, and Mark, I'm going to do, does she drink? Absolutely, absolutely. This face, however, the smiling face, could be her resting face, Scott, to your point. Because if you go look at many, many, many pictures of her, she's perfected that. Extra face. Yeah, and what she's doing, that face is what has worked for her. So organism does what made the organism successful. I think she thinks she's a hell of a lot smarter than she is. But you can see that resting disdain face is her normal face, not the smile part, but the disdain piece. But when she's telling us a story and I'm back to things you've already covered, she's got amusement in her face. I don't see any trauma, anything emotional or passionate. If you ask me about when I was abducted to go to see her, it's pretty a passionate thing, and that was 30 years ago. So you think about those days, Chase, you'd remember it passionately, too. You'd be like, the next thing I know, I got a zip tie. There's all kinds of stuff going on that you're like, oh, panicky about. Yeah. You don't go, and then I was abducted and they gave me some catamine. And then, oh yeah, after that, this is just not real. That's all I got. Nicely done. She thought it was Andre's studio, but it was empty. About to put my hand on the door that said studio just to open it to check if anyone was there. And that's when I was attacked from behind. One person put his armour on my neck and the other panned with a glove on my mouth and my nose. And then another masked man rushed in front of me and held a syringe to my arm. Obviously I was trying to fight back because I didn't want that to go into my arm. I was trying to make fast, but I can't fight off two grown men, so they managed to get the syringe into my wrist. And then I was unconscious. What were you injected with? Catamine. Catamine can be a party drug, though, can't it? Have you ever had it before? No. And I don't do drugs. I don't even drink really. We now know the masked man were two Polish-born brothers. 30-year-old Lucas Herber and 36-year-old Michael Herber. The brothers allegedly gagged and handcuffed the unconscious Chloe, zipped her into a duffel bag and threw her into the boot of their car. They then drove to a secluded farmhouse outside Milan. I open my eyes and I have, like, restriction on my mouth. Like, I didn't know when it was at first. I had hands in my handcuffs and I was, like, trying to feel where I am. I heard the engine, so I knew I was in a moving car. I was shouting, driver, driver, like, as loud as I could. They told you to what? Be quiet? They didn't say anything. Didn't say a word? Not a word. Did they say anything to you about the main motivation? It was to sell me as a sex slave. The auction was supposed to be on Sunday and the starting bid was a $300,000 answer. Why do you think they did target you in the first place? I don't know why they specifically asked for me. Do you think they may have found you on social media or is that what you... I guess so. I guess Instagram. Maybe they wanted someone with, like, a large following or maybe they thought that would get them the ransom they wanted. Greg, what do you got? So, she raises one shoulder, but I'm not sure that one shoulder rises because she's using her hand. I really can't tell. I would like a better frame. But when people ask me all the time, how can I tell by non-visuals when something is going on? I say, listen for... little stinger voice, listen for changing cadence and pitch and listen to the cadence shift in her when she rushes to answer and rises and puts a lot of stress on $300,000 US. Hmm. Something's up there. I'll be like, why does that matter so much to you? And then quickly, she comes back to amusement in her face. Her eyes are all alight when she says $300,000 and she lills at the end in the ransom. The only time I see any concern in here is when she says it's maybe they wanted somebody with a large following. Are those two things related? Maybe. Don't know if something's going on and we need to poke on her a little harder. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I did a while on a search and seizure team and some of that was anti-human trafficking stuff. And I can tell you, captors don't receive this kind of information. I'm sorry, captives don't get this data. And so I just want to break down one thing. When she says $300,000, I want to break down everything that's there and this is one of the greatest reasons that we do these overlays over the screen is that I'm talking about this. We have just during right around this phrase, fidgeting, pupil dilation, upward inflection, locked eye contact. She's lulled and muted emotional state. And I think the 300K was designed to impress more than anything else. It was supposed to be impressive. And when they asked, why do you think they targeted you? Because she changes the word. She softens the crime for the bad guy. They didn't take her. They asked for me. Or they didn't target me. They asked for me because she is so important. And that's why I think she changed the words. I don't know why they specifically asked for me. Someone with a large following. That's just more impressive stuff that we're supposed to find impressive. This big behavior of someone who took a bunch of Xanax is what it looks like here. That's what we're seeing on the screen. And let's cover our statement analysis item. This is number 103 from my list here. Does the person make excuses for or fail to blame the alleged perpetrator? Or do they minimize the seriousness of the acts that were committed? Second part of this, do they fail to add allegations when an opportunity occurred? This one actually comes from peer reviewed research by D.C. Raskin and W.P. Esplan in 1991. That's all I got. Scott, what do you got? All right. These answers are riddled with what we would call textbook deception cues. From eye blocking to fading facts, barriers, or channel lowers to guard her throat. Her breath rate increases and she's added qualifiers at the wazoo for what's going on. And that whole part where she said they wanted some of the lot of followers that bit. It's just one right after the other. Again, my main concern at this point goes back to Ian. Those is pupils. Did you guys look at that? Or is it just me? It looks like he's not going to leave when it's over. He's just going to stand up, open his jacket and turn it into like a hundred rats. Everybody and they'll all run away. That's how odd this looks to me. But I have a lot of problems with this one, including again, where's this auction going to happen? It just sounds like something somebody not very smart would make up and use that for their excuse at this point. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yes. So look, abductions happen. They do actually happen. And there's some people who've been imprisoned around this. And, you know, Italian courts are probably quite good. Why would they get it wrong? Okay, so I'm going to go into some reasoning as to why she might be telling us the truth here. I've got one reason. And then I'll give you some opposites to that because I, you know, I got to fill some space, but I'm doing my best here. I'm doing my best. I'm giving a benefit of that on the first one. Okay. And I got one reason. This unemotional, well-controlled demeanor that she has is one of the symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome. Not for everybody because it's different for different people, but it can be a symptom. Okay. So, so we could put that down to that. And she could have been, this could have happened. It's people in prison. They could have happened. Okay. So here's the opposite of that. And that's probably the last she's going to get from me on this. The eye, yeah, pupil, eyes widen and pupil dilation on $300,000 ransom. So why is that 300,000 US dollar ransom interesting? So we have in, in, when you put a price on something, a price it based on what it's, what its value is, what its manufacturer value is plus some margin on it. Or you do what's called price marking, which is you think about the customer and you go, what would the customer be prepared to pay? Okay. There's some other ways of pricing something, but let's just look at those two. So either this 300,000 US dollars is her intrinsic value plus the margin. Well, as she's been abducted, it's cost them, well, I don't know, maybe they needed transport and stuff like that. It's a bit of petrol involved. They got it, you know, bought some clothes and stuff. So it's quite a high margin or it's the price mark. It's the $300,000 price mark. It's going, I reckon somebody would pay 300,000 for this one. Well, if they'll pay 300, they got four. If they've got four, they've got half a million. Half a million is a better price mark. Like why, like why three, my question would be, why do you think you were price marked at 300,000 rather than 400 or half a million? Why not go for the million? Okay. Well, the problem is it's an auction and there's a ransom price. We kind of both. You don't have, I buy stuff at auction all the time. I've got a lovely art collection. I buy a lot of it at auction. They don't set the ransom for the piece. I go, well, the ransom is this. And then we'll throw it out to other people to kind of, like the ransom is the ransom. And in a ransom market, there's only one buyer, essentially. There's not multiple buyers. So there's some confusion as to whether this is an auction or a kidnapping. So that's confusing. And she is just, I think it was you, Chase, that said, she's not forthcoming about potential motives. Why her? Why exactly her? Why that price? So two videos in, I'm running out of support for this one. It seems like a very nice person and there are people in prison and stuff. And I can't ever see that the Italian courts would be complete bunk and a mess, really. Can you? So, but I'm running out of support for this one. Did they say anything to you about the main motivation? It was to sell me as a sex slave. The auction was supposed to be on Sunday but it was a $300,000 ransom. Why do you think they did target you in the first place? I don't know why they specifically asked for me. Do you think they may have found you on social media? I guess Instagram. Maybe they wanted someone with a large following or maybe they thought that would get them the ransom they wanted. You said they made a mistake, didn't they? Yes. Because when they found out you had a little boy, a child, it was the wrong thing to do. Yeah. Well, it's not that they wanted me to be with my son. It's the fact that it devalues women if you've already had a child. So in terms of a sex slave, if you've had a baby, it's not much good for trade. Yes. They went to a lot of trouble to get you. Yeah. I know it was like months of... months of planning and all the money that it cost. There are photos of you and your little boy on your Instagram account. And pregnant, yeah. And pregnant? Yeah. So if they worked everything else out, how come they made such a basic mistake? Yeah, they said... Well, Lucas said that he didn't scroll down enough to see the pictures because they were from way back. So they did all that other planning, but... That's what he said, yeah. They didn't scroll down the Instagram account enough. Mm-hmm. Well, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so I'm going to lean on a little bit of my past history around anti-terror and hostage-taking, all that. Number one, remember that all hostage-takers have a backup plan. They kill you. That's how it works. If they can't get you, they kill you because you can compromise the people who are trying to abduct you. So typically, you choose run or fight, but you pick where you choose. And so you can get killed doing that. Okay, these guys are pretty scrupulous. Okay, you got a child. Well, this is all off. Let's take a rational approach to that. If a woman who has not had a child is worth $300,000, what do you think one who's had a child is worth? Still $100 maybe? $50,000? $75,000? Well, then why wouldn't they simply keep the prisoner they already have and just lower the price? Why would they send her back? That's question number one. The thing, anytime you're dealing with people who take hostages, you can identify them. They are in trouble the minute you're released. The minute you walk, they're in trouble. And we know that all terrorism all under any kind of secretive thing, whether it's crime families or that, the most dangerous thing they do is the operation. All the intelligence people, they don't know each other, but these people all know each other and they can compromise each other. So they're very careful about letting anyone go. Now, having said that, maybe they're dumb too. Don't know. Don't know anything about it, but I say too because she's not as smart as she thinks she is. And then for me, if I think about, she says, when she's talking to him and she thinks she has agreement, listen to her go yes and nod. You said they made a mistake, didn't they? Yes. Because when they found out you had a little boy, a child, then it was the wrong thing to do. If you've had a baby, it's not much good for trade. Yes. That's her affirmation that, okay, he's believing what I want to do. So she does large nods, eye blocks and extends that ass at the end. You're going to see it more than one time here. So you can listen for things she's saying and know there. And then she says, something that is a source lead and a big oops, she says two of them. One is, I know it was months. Oops, it must have been months in the planning. She doesn't say oops, but she could have. I would have said, that and then the cost. Well, how much do you think that cost? Something along the line here is starting to smell like she knows a lot more about the details of this thing than she should. There's plenty of detail here to make sure her story makes sense. So she's giving you all of that. This is iterative storytelling to get you to a point that you believe what she's saying and she's giving enough information when it's the time. And then finally the last one is her breathing and eye blocking change when she says he didn't scroll down. And she starts that, her breathing and her eye blocking change. So there's a handful of things that make me go, wait a minute, this woman knows more than she should about being abducted. Number one, there's no rationale for why they didn't just keep her and reduce her price. They also released her and now she could identify them and this is just all awkward. Scott, what do you got? All right. When he says, they went to a lot of trouble to get you, here come the unnecessary qualifiers again. And her answer lets us know that she's thought all this out. We don't see anything in her face or any kind of movements at all that say she's constructing a sentence, putting something together, thinking about it all. She just keeps talking and she's giving you a story she's rehearsed. That's why it's almost like loping. It's not quite because it's coming out straight, the straight answer, but she's keeping it with the answer that she knows. So she's focused on that so her voice doesn't go up and down. There's not much movement at all. And she's just repeating a rehearsed answer there. And it's not a good one at all. Then she says, Lucas said he didn't scroll down far enough because those pictures are from way back. She takes a deep breath there and that lets us know there's an issue there. It suggests there's an issue there. And she's relieved when she gets it delivered, that answer at that point. And when she says pictures, we see a slight little squint there. I think it's because she doesn't like the way those pictures look because they make her look undesirable because she's pregnant or with a child. And that's the last thing that one of those Instagram influencers want is to look undesirable. So I think that's what that little squint is there for. But this is totally rehearsed. She knew exactly what she was going to say, but she didn't make it fluid enough. It's just sort of repeating that. And that's all we get at that point. All right, Chase, what do you got? Yeah, so this is not how trafficking works, especially in the Middle East areas, where I guess this was supposed to take place, this auction. And I just wonder all the, all the research that was done on the other side, I wonder how many times she watched the movie taken with Liam Neeson to do her part of the research here. We're seeing it crystal clear in the behavior here. Strong increase of breathing into the chest instead of the abdomen, which suggests stress. And we're seeing the story unfold as a sales pitch instead of a story. It's a selling instead of telling. And this is kind of like the bad guys telling her everything that's happening and everything that's going on. This is also from a movie. This is from hundreds of movies that you've seen where the bad guy paces back and forth and lays out his big grand plan to the hero of the movie who's locked up or in handcuffs or something, lays the plan out first. And that's a lot of what we're seeing here. So statement analysis number 63. Superfluous details are peripheral details described in connection with the alleged events that are not essential and do not contribute directly to the specific allegation. So we're seeing a detailed mountain around things that don't matter and detail valley around allegations, perpetrators, sensory details, all kinds of other things that are important and not just important, she's being directly asked about some of these things. So huge red flag here. Let's see if it gets any better in the next one. Mark? Yeah, the breathing change is really significant, I think, because she tells this story with search apathy. I would suggest that we really do see that big difference in the breathing around the scrolling down. I think she sees that as a real gap in the story and she's maybe been slightly caught out around that one or doesn't really quite, feels very unsure about how she's going to fill that gap. I would suggest somebody, even if they had post-traumatic stress and they weren't recounting or executing the emotions, there would be more energy in the storytelling and less apathy around it. She just doesn't seem bothered. It's not bothered. Not bothered at all about this. Not bothered in any way whatsoever. But the biggest thing that jumps out here is she calls one of these abductors, Lucas. Well, that's quite friendly, isn't it? If it were me, I'd be like the kidnapper, the perpetrator. I don't think I'd call them by their first name. However, there is something called Stockholm syndrome. I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt and go, okay, well, so maybe that could be Stockholm syndrome. Maybe she is siding with her abductor as is a classic psychological situation here. But even with that, I'm just doing my best, doing my best to try and join in a little bit on this. Let's see what happens with her and her abductor, Lucas. They said they made a mistake, didn't they? Yes. Because when they found out you had a little boy, a child, then it was the wrong thing to do. Yeah, it's not that they wanted me to be with my son. It's the fact that it devalues women if you've already had a child. So in terms of a sex slave, if you've had a baby, it's not much good for trade. Yes. They went to a lot of trouble to get you. Yeah, I know it was like months of, months of planning and all the money that it cost. There are photos of you and your little boy on your Instagram account. And pregnant, yeah. And pregnant. Yeah. So if they worked everything else out, how come they made such a basic mistake? Yeah, they said, well, Lucas said that he didn't scroll down enough to see the pictures because they were from way back. So they did all that other planning, but... That's what he said, yeah. They didn't scroll down the Instagram account enough. Mm-hmm. One of the witnesses in the village said that you looked very comfortable, that you were sort of sharing a few laughs with him while you were shopping. I wasn't laughing. We were just walking. When you were in the shop, couldn't you have just made a run for it with people around you? No. Because it was still... He said Black Death agents are nearby. They're watching you. He was armed all the times. He made me believe that even if I managed to escape, I would still be killed. I had to go about this the right way. Why did you believe him? He was just so convincing, everything he would say. Like, if I'd asked him a question about anything, he would answer in so much depth. No hesitation at all. But Chloe had her own plan. And after six days in captivity, she'd established enough rapport with Lucas Herber. She was able to charm him into an extraordinary undertaking. He agreed to set her free even before any ransom money was paid. Was there a relationship between you and Lucas? Not sexually, no. But I had to say right after I'm released, I promise I'll do that and I'll meet you and stuff. So I gave him that hope and then that's why he really trusted me and, I guess, set me free. Effectively then, you tried to make him fall in love with you? In order to survive. Yes, everything I did was to survive. Okay, Chase, what do you got? There's no emotion here. It's really strange. Well, we could just call it apathy, like Mark said. And she smiles when she mentions his name here. She smiles mentioning his name. Or she retrieves a memory about him. That's when you'll see actual emotion. The only emotion we see is happiness around the alleged kidnapper. And she's literally in this one clip. She's selling a story about how naive she is right before telling you how cunning and intelligent she is in the same clip. And when she says I wasn't laughing, we were just walking. This is the perfect denial illustrating a selling argument. If she's honest about mocking or pretending to fall in love with him or treating him to do this, then she would be happy to say that she would laugh with him. Her denying the laughter is a gigantic red flag for me. The denial about the sexual aspect of the relationship. This denial is from social appearance perspective to me. Kind of like the other one was. If it was about a threat to her life, captivity, survival, this would look very different. And she would have probably may be engaged in something physical to save her life. There's no emotion except happiness here. And let's cover the statement analysis. Number 78 contextual embedding. Our events placed in a spatial and temporal context is the action connected to other incidental events such as routines and daily occurrences that we do regularly. So we don't see a lot of any of that here. It's very spotty, splotchy, designed to manage a social appearance. Great. Yeah. So first thing is we know that eyewitnesses are not reliable. And you have to have a mailbox in your head to know someone is abducted. Later when they say, did she smile? Well, she was smiling. You wouldn't remember what the person was like. You just would not. We paint in the details. And every time we open that memory, we edit. We always tell you that. So you need to know someone's been abducted and then you'd be looking for that. There is however one thing. This woman's got a lot of hair. A lot of hair. If you've been abducted and you've been treated like an average prisoner and put in a box and left there, put away, how do you keep up all the hair? How do you not look kind of rat's nesty when you walk out in the street? Unless they grabbed your carry-on bag when they abducted you and brought all your products with them or they went and shop for all that stuff for you to start with. Something seems odd there to me. Why is it that nobody noticed there's a ratty hair woman walking down the street with a guy to buy some shoes? I would have said they would have noticed that and you wouldn't need a bag in your head. You wouldn't need a box in your head for it. Here's the interesting piece to me. Chase, you're talking about when she talks about laughing. This is the only time she shows concern in her brow. When she's challenged about laughing, she shows concern in her brow. She doesn't do that when she talks about being snatched or drugged or any other time. But she does then. She does an eye block and then this thing comes up in her forehead. That's weird for me to see that when she's talked about all the rest of the stuff. Then she starts to tell this dramatic story of these armed agents and she interrupts her own armed agent's story with a story of he was armed at all times. Mark, does that common Brit speak? I'd say he had a gun probably. Only people who have thought it out are thinking he was armed. Unless maybe he had a knife, but I'm guessing a gun. What we know is that Stockholm syndrome can happen very rapidly. It happened in six days in the original story and with Manson it happened very quickly. But what we know is you don't usually escape when you're doing that quite as easily and you don't turn on their captors quite as quickly either. My other favorite part of this one is when she says not sexually, no. She's got withdrawal of the muscles on the side and those that indicate disgust. She's got concern in her brow and that like, oh hell no, kind of look to her face, not that. Then when she says all this stuff and then now she's getting out of the port where she says I would do after I would do that. I don't know what that is and then she says stuff. That source leads now. She knows how long it took to plan it. She knows there's money spent. She knows she's going to do some stuff afterwards. Hmm, I got questions. What's going on in your little head right there? And then when he says, you made him try to make you fall, you tried to make him fall in love with you and she goes yes and does that big knot again. And then he says to survive yes and does that big knot again. Hmm. Mark what do you got? Yeah, I don't like this stuff thing. I mean this is a master plan. She's brilliantly executed. She's got him to, she's won him to his side. She's, they're out shopping and stuff. And he's promised he'll do stuff and she says I'll meet you and stuff. It's like, if you work this one out just a little more detail would be lovely because I would like to understand exactly how you've worked this one out because it's got to be pretty good because you've turned the situation around here into a shoe shopping trip and that's nothing wrong with that. I like shoes. You like shoes. Let's go shoe shopping but that's a real turnaround. It's almost the opposite of Stockholm. So it's almost, the captor is like, she said falling in love with her. That is masterful. That is, that is, that's now genius I would say. And she says it herself, you know, she makes people fall in love with her in order to survive. That could be a modus operandi away. Now, it was his name, Scott, is it Ian? Is it Ian with the, with the eyes? Ian, Ian mate snap out of it. Snap out, it's working on you. Snap out of it. She's got you. She's got you. She's got you, mate. So I think you know, those dilated pupils her method of making people fall in love with her is working to an extent on our friend Ian. But I think that's going to turn around on the next one. We'll get the Australian back on the next one there. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right. Now, when she says I wasn't laughing. We were just talking. That's not just odd. That's weird because she's trying to make this guy fall in love with her and she's not laughing at his jokes. Every woman watching this that's happily married is a professional laughter and they're professionally laughing at horrible jokes. They've heard nine, 12,000 times when their husband sees people they know and he thinks they haven't heard him tell this joke yet. You all saw that happen we were in Las Vegas. You saw Amber laugh every time I told the same joke and we all know it was fake because of our skill sets that her laugh was fake, but she still did it because she loves me and every woman that is happily married or has engaged or has a boyfriend they're in love with and everything's going great. They're professional laughers because that's one of the keys to do it. You have to be pleasant. You've got to make the guy want to fall in love with you. If you're not laughing at his jokes, there's a big problem there. I don't think it's going to go very far at all for you. And then when she says when he asks her the question she says not sexually no, I'm with you on that Greg because he didn't ask why would she add that in? She wants to make sure everybody knows she's not having sex with this guy right? This thing just it's a circle in the drain. It gets worse and worse as it goes. The most mind-blowing thing she says is that she expected everybody to believe was when she says I made him fall in love with me and stuff and the end stuff like you were talking about Greg, the end stuff parts that Jonah borrowed Jack Schaefer that famous creating time creating all these things that in there that she's not telling us I made him fall in love with me and stuff that's incredible and less than 40 words she explains like Mark was talking about this masterful way of capturing bewitching someone and making them fall in love with her and making it so she doesn't have to pay him any money they're going to let her go for free in less than 40 words. Something that complex she's broken down into just a very small very short couple of sentences maybe a half a paragraph it's ridiculous at this point. As far as body language goes she's shown us again the classics everything you can think of just about that says deception that is what she's doing every move she makes in there just about we see that quick swallow and the fast breathing the low blink rate she's focused on him making sure he's believing her story buying her story all these cues we're seeing tell us with their answer and I'm there's so many negatives in here so many deception cues it's it's its own show it's its own thing right here. I'm thinking about using this in training because it's so bad I don't know I don't think I can stand watching her explain this again so many times anyway that's all I got we good? Yeah. One of the witnesses in the village said that you looked very comfortable you were sort of sharing a few laughs with him while you were shopping. I wasn't laughing we were just walking. When you were in the shop couldn't you have just made a run for it with people around you? No because it was still he said black death agents and nearby they're watching you he was armed all times he made me believe that even if I managed to escape I would still be killed I had to go about this the right way. Why did you believe him? He was just so convincing everything he would say like if I'd ask him a question he would answer in so much depth no hesitation at all but Chloe had her own plan and after six days in captivity she'd established enough rapport with Lucas Herber she was able to charm him into an extraordinary undertaking he agreed to set her free even before any ransom money was paid was there a relationship between you and Lucas? Not sexually no but I had to say right after I'm released I promise I'll do that and I'll meet you so I gave him that hope and that's why he really trusted me and I guess set me free. Effectively then you tried to make him fall in love with you? Yes. In order to survive? Yes everything I did was to survive. Kenapa takes you to breakfast he says I'm going to release you I'm going to set you free but just before I do that I'll just go and get some bacon and eggs I don't think he just had a juice Yeah it's very strange I know Why would your abductor get all that trouble to kidnap you and then simply hand you in? Because he still demanded money from me on my release But he wasn't getting any money? I was supposed to pay it within a month I was literally like stressing about how am I going to pay this money even when I was in the Italian police station I was thinking why am I answering these questions when that was my rule not to But what sort of kidnap releases their victim and puts them on some sort of honor system to pay the money back when they get home? Because I was so brainwashed into thinking that if I don't do it I'm just going to die that was my mindset I had to do it or else I would just not come out alive Why didn't you tell the Italian police that you'd been shoe shopping with one of your abductors? Well I brushed it off at first because this interview was like 15 hours at the police I was super tired But when you say brushed it off I just said I don't know Is that a euphemism for lying by omission? I just said I don't know Chloe that's a pretty important point though isn't it? What do you mean? To go shoe shopping with the person who kidnapped you I mean I've heard of Stockholm syndrome but I've never heard of shoe shopping syndrome Yeah I know Alright Mark what do you got? Yeah so look Ian's back has him there so he snapped out of it let's just leave it at that I don't know where you'd gone Ian but you're back with us now fantastic good to have you back What I love is when she said I just said I don't know when we get this collision of disgust and eye block I think Jupiter's delight as well and disdain I mean it's such a mash up go back pick them out extraordinary mash of feelings there but what we don't get is any confusion there's no confusion around hang on you didn't tell the police and you were kind of you were in a shoe shopping relationship with your captor look one of the symptoms and indicators of Stockholm syndrome is non-compliance with the police if you have Stockholm syndrome you will support your captor and you won't talk to police people will be upset about that and one of the symptoms is confusion about that you will be confused as to why this bizarre thing is going on where you have where you've confused your captor for a a friend go back over that and see whether you're seeing any confusion in her whatsoever lots of apathy, lots of other collisions lots of emotion but for me no confusion at all I think Ian is right to bring up the idea of Stockholm syndrome and she's going to play for that but it isn't there at all in my mind Greg what do you think? Yeah it's interesting to watch a whole bunch of things she does here the first one and this is the first of more than one we'll see is she does something I call aiming stake argument so when you're in the military and you're doing kind of an overlapping perimeter with these stakes in the ground at night so you know where your fields of fire are so you don't shoot somebody next to you you know where to shoot and what she's doing when he says something about breakfast and eggs she jumps to he didn't have any eggs well that's a aiming stake argument and that's a dangerous argument because if you're good at what you do then what you do is you bracket you go back to the other extreme boom boom boom what do you have then not about the breakfast at all I'll give you a great example as once talking to a Finnish soldier who we were getting on the discussion of World War 2 and they had supported Hitler in World War 2 and his immediate out the gate stop to stop the argument was we had nothing to do with the Holocaust that doesn't change anything about you supporting Hitler now if you're Finnish I understand all the complexities of Russia and and and but the whole point of taking the hardest stake you could and trying to defend that is dangerous because the next step by somebody who has a bracket is to go to the other extreme and then you just keep walking it in until you get them so you didn't do this but you did do this you didn't have eggs you did have you get where I'm headed because we'll hear it again she uses this more than one time then after she does that whole orange juice comment she does a real douchey smile the only one I've seen here and why is she doing that you have to ask yourself is she pleased she just disarmed that or something no idea she swallows her words when she or uses scott's fading facts when she says it's strange it just kind of disappears out of her mouth and then if you want a great example of what we mean we say internal voice watch Ian formulate his question the as he comes up then she goes back to what she does best she jumps up here and starts to tell her story and then she comes to life that's organism doing what made the organism successful people fall for that from her all the time and I love the rent a center approach to a hostage what you can go home and make a monthly payment if you miss payments will repossess I guess is what that's supposed to say just such a weird bunch of stuff she is so focused on the stock home syndrome thing she doesn't hear the real question I was saying negotiation know what you came to say yes but be careful and listen to what the other person is saying when he brings up what kind of capture would do this she doesn't even talk about the capture she says well I was so brainwashed because she's got a story to tell Mark all that discussed all that I just have written right here this is Mark smells her own rat that's what that is she's like oh I'm in trouble and then finally just another logic thing having been a prisoner manager handle prisoners and abduct abductees and that kind of stuff guess what I know how to go buy shoes without your help if worst case I'll take a piece of paper and trace your foot and walk in and say handy some shoes that size but I can pretty well figure out what size shoe you wear and I don't care if they really fit you're going to be a croc wearing ass if I got to do that Scott what do you got all right for the entire interview she's on guard actually and now she's getting the most damning part of the interview and she remembers and she recalls the tiniest of details when she gets captured she remembers all that but she can't remember about the breakfast really they went out and had breakfast she can't remember that but she can remember these nanosecond nanosecond details about what made this whole thing start now that right there there's a little check for you right there I don't believe this box and let's talk about her lips through the whole interview there's just a little slit of light you can see coming through her teeth because she's doing that little duck kind of face really go like that you know to look sexy and so she's trying to puff up her lips watch her do that watch her blow air out through her lips come up in there she's going through that and when she says he still demanded money from me we see a single shoulder shrug and that suggests he isn't confident with what what she's saying and her tone of voice like you were saying Greg that whole thing changes it gets quieter there and again it's like a fading fact situation we're dealing with as well and then when the interviewer says when he even says but he wasn't getting any money far in the whole thing that we've seen and she's almost wiggling trying to get away I think this is when her fear her freeze fighter flight kicks in because I think at this point she's internally panicking because she's getting ready to box her in he doesn't but he's got it right there where he could get her boxed in and then she says when I was in the Italian police station I was thinking why am I answering these questions when that was my rule not to sorry there you go sweetie sorry it's handy when she says what I wasn't going to do that the interrogator if we'd been in there you could say this you'd say hang on just a minute if you're talking to her you mean to tell me you're in the police station you're in the bowels of the police you can't get away nobody can get in there to you and you're afraid of these guys who aren't here you know who they are you know where they're from you know the names and all that we have guns they're not going to come in and get you what's the problem and we're going to take care of you we promise it's not going to happen to you and she doesn't tell them all this she's thinking I'm not going to tell them anything really no you're going to say okay here's what happened because the first thing you're going to think of is your child because they wouldn't have said we're going to kill you if you don't pay us you know what they would have said we're going to be after your family attention a woman's attention the thing that means more to her than anything in the whole wide world a little baby a little child and that's what they would have said they wouldn't have said her they're going to lie to her about it anyway about what they're going to do they would have said the child they would come for that so that didn't ring right with me either at all this whole thing is just a big mess it's a train wreck so far yeah so right when Ian says strange she says I know and I want you to watch this and hopefully it will be on your screen right now but there's a sudden drop of the smile off of the face right when she says I know and when Ian says what sort of kidnapper does something like this talking about being released and all that she starts off with because and she speaks for the kidnapper in first person at this point innocent people when their questions about the motives of another person a bad person will probably make a zero attempt to craft an answer liars especially in a forensic setting will attempt to ascribe motive desire reasons so this is especially true when they've collaborated with the other person and there's actual research on this that I'll put in the description of the video down here below when she said otherwise I would just not come out alive there's heart eye blocking a laugh of affect or emotion there's lack of verbal or sensory recall nothing there and then let's cover statement analysis item number 14 does the person use sensory detail when describing or recalling emotional events ask anyone you know today as your homework as a panelist ask anybody you know about an emotional event preferably a good one and I bet you'll hear a couple sensory words even if it's only one sentence long kidnapper takes you to breakfast he says I'm gonna release you I'm gonna set you free but just before I do that I'll just go and get some bacon and eggs I don't think he just had a juice I can't remember it's very strange why would your abductor get all that trouble to kidnap you and then simply hand you in because he still demanded money from me on my release but he wasn't getting any money I was supposed to pay it within a month I was literally stressing about how am I gonna pay this money even when I was in the Italian police station I was thinking why am I answering these questions when that was my rule not to but what sort of kidnapper releases their victim and puts them on some sort of honor system to pay the money back when they get home because I was so brainwashed into thinking that if I don't do it I'm just gonna die that was my mind so I had to do it or else I would just not come out alive why didn't you tell the Italian police that you'd been shoe shopping with one of your abductors well I brushed off at first because this interview was like 15 hours at the police or I was just super tired but when you say brushed it off I just said I don't know is that a euphemism for lying by omission no I just said I don't know Chloe that's a pretty important point though isn't it to go shoe shopping with the person who kidnapped you I mean I've heard of Stockholm syndrome I've never heard of shoe shopping syndrome yeah I know I know Michael now says it was a normal relationship between you and Lucas what do you mean a normal relationship well there was no kidnapping plan plot it never happened the last time he saw you and Lucas together it was just a normal relationship that doesn't even make sense that's not true after she was released Chloe returned home to England and was quick to call a press conference on her front lawn the world expected to see a traumatized fragile victim but what they got was a flashy unflappable publicity how I think we're perfectly entitled to ask you difficult questions what's wrong with them the increase in your profile the increase in publicity plays into people's skepticism doesn't it yeah definitely if I was just like a normal looking older older woman then I would be getting sympathy and everything but because I look how I do and I do glamour then people automatically would associate that with publicity so it's not fair the very first ransom demand mentioned the fact that this whole episode would increase your media profile and kick start your career yeah I don't know why he did that that line has led to other people thinking that you were part and parcel of this people questioning me for his tactics and I can't I don't know how his mind works and what his intention was so well because they think you're in cahoots with him but I'm not not as his victim but you categorically say that didn't happen I'd like to see I'm going to go look at that Piers Morgan interview I bet he did oh man alright Chase what do you got right at this I'm going to dissect this using the behavioral table of elements which is a tool I created for lie detection you can download it anywhere pretty much from the internet for free but I'm just going to do one piece of this right when he said it was a normal relationship here's what happens asking for clarification of a simple question for score for repeating words of the interviewer question repetition lack of affect lack of a confident denial lack of detail failure to address the perpetrator or speak about the perpetrator failure to correct the record with accurate information failure to display any disagreement repetition of the interviewer again and then interviewer had to encourage the denial score 70 and you need an 11 or higher to be very likely deception this is a 70 it's the highest we've seen on the show so far I'm so happy I'm here today and one more thing on the remark about the career in this first ransom note the denial is about the motive for the kidnapper she's not denying that she agrees with it or anything she's denying the motive of the kidnapper there's no detail there's no relevant story detail to show that the kidnapper has some personality so let's cover our statement analysis item six does the person recall story events and experiences using both spatial and temporal which means time context if any of these come from academic references I'll add them to the description below and time was not there space is not covered in almost this entire thing pay attention to where space and time and sensory detail shows up and then when it vanishes very very quickly Scott what do you got on this? when she says what do you mean normal relationship we're back to her focusing on her looks because when she says relationship again she blows the air out of her mouth that tells you where her head's at show us that show us that face one more time I saw it last time I think we did it one more time you're not very good at your duck face no oh lord no it's a little children it scares children when I do that I think they're running from the room screaming so it yeah a little duck face so that's where her head's at during this she's not concerned about her safety she's not concerned about what's going to happen she's not worried about paying back $300,000 she's not worried about any of that she's thinking about how she looks as this interview is going on that's all I got on that one Mark what do you got yeah look great day to be alive 70 on the behavioral table of elements I never thought I'd see it I thought that was an impossibility so what is what that seems to suggest I'm not no you're not saying this chase but what that seems to suggest is she's an absolute liar I mean that would just suggest she's absolutely a bear faced liar yeah I mean is that possible I don't know it's a possibility isn't it it seems to suggest suggest that for sure so she negotiates that statement what do you mean a normal relationship she then negates the next statement that doesn't even make sense completely negates it completely negates it somebody who wants you truly wants you to understand the story that really happened we'll try and help you we're trying to help you understand rather than just going I'm just going to negate that completely you'll have to come up with something better for me to be able to give you an answer no not true now I want you to go back and take a look at that or maybe we'll show it right now no not true is that the face of no that you see there or is that a half smile on that and if it's a half smile that's often very close to Dupers delight so is that Dupers delight around the word no could be a lot of single shoulder shrugs as well lots of them around and about all over this I love most the wintz that she has that wintz kind of face that she has I don't know why you did that I don't know why you did that I think she's saying to herself why the hell did you come up with that I don't know why you came up with that story that's a wintz to herself just like Greg I think you write that she was smelling her own rat earlier on she is annoyed at her own ineptitude that's a decent story here amazing we got a 70 will we ever get more than a 70 I don't know I can't see it but maybe Greg what do you think I heard the same thing she stumbles through some fading facts Scott to use yours and I got something I can't believe you missed in this one Scott because this is your trademark but she stumbles through those fading facts and at the end over pronounces the P don't know what it means something is wrong there her browser down in the middle and we typically associate that with anger one thing I'll give her credit for I love a stoic face hers might have kind of a mask like quality to it but she's pretty damn stoic in this whole thing except for occasionally she gets a slight center a slight wrinkle right here in the center which shows concern and when he says that doesn't make sense she does that laugh kind of a beautiful laugh kind of a nervous laugh she's not afraid to go after people she went after Piers Morgan which nobody's saying he doesn't deserve it but at that point she then I blocks and goes back to that resting face her respiration increases as Ian asked her about publicity watch your respiration just go through the roof and then Scott this thing I'm surprised you didn't see not only does she do this many times she does this many times I'm so focused on what she's saying always says that's the best indicator of a liar he's seeing she does that more than one time she doesn't that glamour and mark I think part of her problem and she's dancing carefully around that self being worried about self she almost calls out well they treat me differently because I'm beautiful and they're not that's what that starting to come across as and she backs up very quickly and goes and starts changing her words that's when she really does the shoulder to chin point and then the interviewer says it didn't happen what does she say it did not happen non-contracted deny ding ding ding ding just a whole line guys could she be telling the truth and just has an unfortunate personality sure is it likely not based on my experience that's what I got hey could could you do that laugh one more time Greg sure come on lean into it that's what I did I know somebody left like that you laugh just like that you had a serious face I don't remember you were doing it I was waiting for Mark to go clearly smelling her own delight her own deviance clearly smelling his own delight as it comes forth it's foul I can almost smell it from here my empathy is so high disgusting Michael now says it was a normal relationship between you and Lucas what do you mean a normal relationship well there was no kidnapping plan plot it never happened the last time he saw you and Lucas together it was just a normal relationship that doesn't even make sense that's not true no not sure after she was released Chloe returned home to England and was quick to call a press conference on her front lawn anything further until I've been debriefed the world expected to see a traumatised fragile victim but what they got was a flashy unflappable publicity this woman's first-hand account I think we're perfectly entitled to ask you difficult questions yeah that's fine I can answer all of them the increase in your profile the increase in publicity plays into people's skepticism doesn't it yeah definitely if I was just like a normal looking older older woman then I would be getting sympathy and everything but because I look how I do and I do glamour then people automatically would associate that with publicity so it's not fair the very first ransom demand mentioned the fact that this whole episode would increase your media profile and kickstart your career yeah I don't know why he did that that line has led to other people thinking that you were part and parcel of this it's not happening to me for his tactics and I don't know how his mind works and what his intention was well because they think you're in cahoots with him but I'm not not as his victim but you categorically say that didn't happen I'm sitting here thinking Chloe Elling's lying I'm also thinking why would you lie in order to put two innocent men in jail for a long time I know it doesn't make sense are you certain these brothers are guilty certain yeah 100% if they're found guilty they'll be locked up for a long time well so they deserve it being the victim of a headline grabbing abduction has already proven very lucrative for Chloe Elling she's been offered jobs worth hundreds of thousands of dollars the interview requests are piling up and there's a book deal in the works perhaps we too have become pawns in Chloe's grand plan for fame and fortune and whether it's a kidnapping gone wrong or a publicity stunt gone right one thing's for sure this is a story of our times the suggestion that you've completely made all this up does that offend you it doesn't offend me no because I get it like there's people picking parts of the story and they don't know because it's such a complicated story they don't know everything what happened and all the details I see why people have doubts if it wasn't me I would think it's just crazy but it doesn't affect me because after going through something so bad the opinions of people that don't even know me or know the full story it's just not going to affect me you think because you've survived anything else is secondary because that was just so bad what I went through that was some opinions to me it's just not going to touch me yeah I'll keep this one very short because she starts off when he starts saying it doesn't make sense she's going exactly and then she starts to do what she does and that's work him and you can see it until he says 100% and she goes 100% when she says 100% her chin drops to cover her throat and her lips immediately purse the indicator of telling the truth that doesn't look like she's telling the truth at all then when she gets back to telling her story she's animated her face comes to life she's all happy and cheerful lots of eye contact unlike anything else we've seen throughout the whole thing Scott what do you got everything she's doing shows an excuse of deception from fading facts to again like you were saying earlier Greg the shoulder so small but her single shoulder and toward that is real small little things she did her whole approach to this thing is hard that's all it is for me I'm not I can just rehash but I'm not going to chase what you got I agree with the guest and right when Ian says are you certain they're guilty there's repetition again lack of affect any emotional affect lack of detail or information again repetition of the interviewer word for word and there's eye blocking at that repetition so the school her score on the behavioral table there would be 20 and when she says they deserve it there's visible sclera a little white part above your colored part of your eye that that's visible which indicates anger most of the time and I have an assumption or an opinion about what I think might have happened that I'll tell you at the end here but during the does it you this is what a response looks like does it offend you there's movement there's facial expressions although they're muted there's words that actually using human words she says people don't have the details and that's the purpose of the interview here that's the purpose that's why the interview is here if it's a complicated story fill us in so let's cover statement analysis item number 108 does the person describe any element of their own behavior related to the incident as wrong inappropriate or that could have been done differently and guess what there's zero of that here so pretty big Greg pretty good oh sorry sorry I thought you were pointing at Greg no I had my hand up thank you look let's not forget there are two guys doing time in an Italian prison somewhere I think they're doing time for abduction not wasting police time abduction she doesn't seem to mind at that point that's pretty cold what kind of person wouldn't mind about that interesting interested who we've got here it doesn't offend me she said this is around people not believing you thinking you're a liar if I'd been through this trauma and I'd told my story and I'd told it the best way I could and people were going Mark you're just an out and out liar scoring 70 on the behavioral television I would be offended it would be my emotions would be triggered by that I'd find that flipping offensive because I'd think you're just doing it on purpose now I'd be offensive I'd be offended by that she's not offended it's interesting has no emotional reaction to that it was just so bad she says it time to time again so bad what I went through there's an inability there to really pass out and describe in more details the emotions the feelings that are around being what from my point of view should be a real trauma doesn't even say the word trauma which is a word that she would have it's a very popular word she doesn't even use that word it's just so bad she can't pick any of the emotional words that she must surely have from the rest of her life and put them together the only thing I can describe it as is this and this and this and this that I've already been through but she only has the emotional words of so bad for something like that it seems like she's devoid at this point of being able to really express feelings or even have feelings that we might expect around that so that's kind of interesting I'm just amazed not necessarily perplexed but it is extraordinary the lack of emotion that she has around all of this and that might point to a personality that we have here wrapped up in a thing for some people of a thing of beauty it may be a little darker on the inside let's just say that I'm sitting here thinking Chloe Elling's lying I'm also thinking why would you lie in order to put two innocent men in jail for a long time 100% are you certain these brothers are guilty 100% if they're found guilty they'll be locked up for a long time well so they deserve it being the victim of a headline grabbing abduction has already proven very lucrative for Chloe Elling she's been offered jobs worth hundreds of thousands of dollars the interview requests are piling up there's a book deal in the works perhaps we too have become pawns in Chloe's grand plan for fame and fortune and whether it's a kidnapping gone wrong or a publicity stunt gone right one thing's for sure this is a story of our times the suggestion that you've completely made all this up does that offend you it doesn't offend me no because I get it like there's people that are just picking parts of the story and they don't know because it's such a complicated story they don't know everything what happened and all the details so I see why people have doubts because if it wasn't me I would think like it's just crazy but it doesn't affect me because after going through something so bad like the opinions of people that don't even know me or know the full story is just not going to affect me you think because you've survived anything else is secondary that was some opinions to me it's just not going to touch me I'll start around the room and sort of wrap up what we think happened and what we've seen Mark you want to go first yeah looks to me looks to me like she's lying completely and there's a couple of guys in prison I don't know what happens over in I used to work in Italy for quite a while it's a great lovely country fantastic food fantastic food just everybody you know stay out of courts as much as you ever can unless you make your living out of that stay out of Italian ones for sure for sure Chase what do you got I would I would be comfortable saying that I'm an expert in false memories and this is one of the common theories out there that there's some false memory that's going on and this it was even started to be popularized by her from what I understand and I would say this is absolutely not possible and not the case here and what we've seen here is just muddy deception I'm not going to pretend to know what happened but there's definitely more deception here than truth I think it's very possible that she did team up with them that there was a falling out of some sort where they do deserve it like we just heard in the last video will they deserve it they deserve that punishment for a slight they did to her in my opinion and they had a falling out I think this explains a lot the language and the behaviors in all of her appearances when she references her alleged abductors Greg yeah is it possible she has just this awkward delivery that makes her appear to be lying at all every turn yeah it's possible is it possible that she was abducted by dumb and dumber it's possible is it also possible that she was part of an abduction plan with dumb and dumber and when it started to fall apart she's willing to jettison that's possible too we can't know her details but what we can do is say in behavior what do we collectively think the four of us have a pretty strong opinion at the moment and then overlay that on what we know about abductions what we know about taking prisoners what we know about releasing what we know about organized crime and hostage taking and overlaying all that together this paints a pretty damning picture for her in my opinion Scott what you got I agree with all you guys I think this is a great example of somebody who's not great at lying and they're trying to lie while focusing on themselves and the way they look as they're lying and not just to look truthful but to look as the best they can and to look attractive I just think that's fascinating seeing that and I I agree there's something going on with those guys in prison why they and I think maybe they have turned on her at this point but how she could talk her way out of that and I think she's at home I think she's she's home right now but to be able to get away from that and putting those two guys in the pokey like that and not helping them at all and leaving them in there after they and especially once once when the one guy supposedly didn't have a relationship with her but maybe it's most cases where she's like listen if we get away with this we'll get married and all this or something you never know but it's just it's just weird and I was I was thinking about using this these things for training but I just can't so bad it's just so obvious people I think people were bored out of school trying to pay attention to this so I think it was another good and fellas and we'll see you next time they behave you're a panel and when he says it doesn't make sense she does that laugh kind of a stupid laugh kind of a nervous laugh she's not afraid to go after people she went after Piers Morgan which nobody saying he doesn't deserve it but at that point she