 Chicken tastes good, that's my opinion. Chicken tastes good. Chickens taste good? Yeah, yeah, taste good. Where would you stand in the days of slavery? Would you be on the side of the slave owners? Yeah, against it, obviously, obviously. Just ask where you are now with animal rights. Why is it worse to kill a human? I want to know why it's worse if it's not brain capacity. Because we're human beings and we shouldn't kill other human beings. And law as well, of course. No, no, no, no. We're not going to talk about law because what's legal hasn't always been moral. So you're not a vegan yet? I'm not a vegan, no. Okay. No, I'm not a vegan, but I'm still interested to listen. What questions do you have? Well, I think it's quite difficult just to try and change a lifestyle. Because I usually, when I go shop at Aldi or whatever, I'll get loads of meat all the time and that. Usually when I have a meal, I'd have a meat and a side or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, I wouldn't know. I'm happy to try and reduce how much meat I eat, but... Okay. I don't know, I'm just like... Okay, yeah. So I want to know, first of all, do you think what you see on the screens is okay? You usually blur it out on your YouTube videos, don't you? Well, I'm just trying to show you some stocks there and stuff. There's a gas chamber in Ashton online, not too far away. This is this gas, pigs being gassed. It's pretty common. The main way pigs are gassed in that England and Wales. Okay. Yeah, I mean, first of all, the dairy industry. First of all, you have to agree that this is morally wrong. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, you never think about a jewelry. That's the thing. Like if you just go to the shop and you just get your food, you never really think about where it comes from and that. Yeah, I mean, and also when you pay for that food, you're paying for this to happen to the animals, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you don't usually think about that though, do you, Drew? No. It's not the first thing that comes to your mind when you go to the shop and you buy some chicken or beef, you don't think, oh, this is where it comes from and it's cruel or whatever. I mean, it was in the back of my mind, but when I used to make a chicken's breast on the side of my plate, not all the time it wasn't in the back of my mind. Like sometimes when I seen like a bit of blood in a vein or something, it would remind me that that's from an animal. Well, I was going to say, what about Christmas time especially? Yeah. That's a bit more typical. Yeah. So what about Christmas? Because everyone's having turkey, beef, pork or whatever. Well, who do you eat at Christmas? Turkeys or cows? We have a bit of pork, actually. We have belly pork at our house. Okay. That's what we have. Okay. And a bit of beef as well. We don't really like turkey too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I love turkeys, but I don't want to eat them. No, no, that's fair enough. That's fair enough. But yeah, Christmas time, like I've been doing a bit of campaigning for Christmas. Yeah. Okay. A little scan, a QR code, and you can get a little download pack, and it just gives you a little supermarket guide and things like that. Yeah, yeah, good idea. I also got these as a little guide too. And in January, there's something called Veganuary happening. Okay. So it's like a yearly campaign in January where everyone sort of goes vegan for January. Okay. So like, when you commit to something for 30 days, you build new habits, you might find out about new foods, and you... So when you became Veganuary, was it like instant, did you like to switch a diet completely? So what happened with me is I felt like a hypocrite. Okay. Like, I don't know, are you against animal cruelty? Yes, yes, I would be, yeah. I think that what happens to animals in animal agriculture is cruel. It's always cruel. Yeah. When you shoot an animal in a head, if they had a happy life, I think that's cruel. Chopping animals up into pieces, I think is cruel. So do you believe this away in which you could like, kill an animal without... producing as much pain as possible, and could that be seen as more humane? Oh, well, I think there's worse ways to kill a person. I think there's more humane ways to kill a person, generally. But to kill you is the inhumane part. Well, of course, but killing people as compared to killing animals is completely different, do you not think? I don't think it's completely different. I think it might be a little bit worse to kill a person who has more... A lot worse. A lot worse, no? Well, well, it depends on which person. What type of experience do they have? Are they a good person or a bad person? Are they a small child who will grow up into an adult? Are they... like, what type of person are we talking about? I wouldn't justify killing anyone, personally. Why not? Because that's a terrible thing to do. What about self-defense? I wouldn't kill someone in self-defense. What if you had to? They're going to kill your family. You would... If you were to kill my family, I would have to... could I not take a different route, like, ring the police or whatever? Well, what if the only option is either you kill me or I kill your family? I don't believe that... In a hypothetical situation... In a hypothetical... I'm just... It's a completely hypothetical situation, but I... I don't really see how that situation... Okay, because I... Well, I'm giving that situation because I would kill a human in that hypothetical. I would... Yeah, of course I would. Okay. If a human being was going to blow up a stadium full of 100,000 people and I had a sniper rifle and I could kill him to save the... Of course I'm going to kill the human. I don't think I'd be in a situation to have a sniper rifle or think I would want to kill anyone. No, but I'm just talking about hypotheticals to get an ethical position. Yeah. It's just a part of philosophy. It's just... I mean... Okay. I'm saying that animals are... Animals are innocent, right? Yep, yep. But in self-defense I would kill. Okay. There are situations where I would kill. Okay. Okay. I'm not a complete pacifist. No. Because I think it would be immoral not to kill in some situations. Okay. It would actually be an act of immorality. Okay. Yeah. Not to kill someone in certain situations. Understood. But like with animals, all right? You know what? You might not hold them as on a higher plane as human beings. You might think that a human being... They have a... You know, a more deeper experience. They can understand deeper possibilities of what can happen to them. They might suffer on a deeper level maybe. But also, Drew, in your favour here humans as a responsibility and we control and look after animals. We've got a responsibility, I would say in a way. You know? Yeah. Well, I think we've got a responsibility to protect them. Yeah. But like, you could take a human being who has the mental capacity of a cow. Yeah. Okay. Which they do exist. Okay. And bless them. They're being looked after in special facilities, yeah? Okay. We protect their rights and we look after them, yeah? Yes. Now, you might think that they might not have as... They might have a similar experience to a cow in their life. Okay. You don't think that's possible? I think that's a bit far-fetched though if we're saying a human with not the... I'm setting it up for you here. A human without the brain capacity or whatever. Therefore, we're just judging a human based on brain capacity. That's what the value is based on is purely capacity. That would be... Why is it worse to kill a human? I want to know why it's worse if it's not brain capacity. Because we're human beings and we shouldn't kill other human beings. And law as well... No, no, no, no. We're not going to talk about law because what's legal hasn't always been moral. Okay. Slavery was legal. That was immoral. So you don't bring... Law and morality are two different topics. Of course, of course, law divides over time is... Yeah, we should have laws protecting animals. We should have laws protecting animals from being slaughtered, I think. Okay. But like... I understood that, yeah. Yeah, but like... Because the images you're showing me, this looks cruel. This doesn't look like a... I know we've talked about the words humane described in the situation because you're saying, well, it's inhumane to kill anything, isn't it? I think it's inhumane to take someone's life when it's needless for sure. Yes. I think you're robbing them of their life. I think that's not humane. It's against what humane means which is to show compassion. Okay. Um... Sorry, I didn't... Humane means to show compassion, kindness, benevolence. Okay, so... Can we not... If we were to kill an animal, is a way of reducing or... We can talk about that. Can I... Can we just first... Because we didn't get off the topic of like... Yes. I want to know... This human trait that you've given me... Yes. Because they're human. Yes. That's why we shouldn't kill them. Yes. But isn't there something about a human? Like, that they feel pain, they suffer, they want to live, they have moral value because they experience the world subjectively. Um... They have wants and desires. Yeah. A want of a future. Like, aren't these things more important than just... They are this species? Um... Yeah, I... I'd completely agree to it. But again, going back to the point of... As people, we experience a lot more... It's kind of... So, they say... So, there we are, there we are. Yeah, it's okay. So, because I could take a human being and a sentient being, they are almost alike in every single way, except for they're not human, they're from another planet. Okay. Is it okay to kill them en masse for burgers? To kill another... But again, this is a very hypothetical situation. I'm trying to find out your moral position, whether it's just human that's a trait, or if we take... If we get a person, like a person that's not actually human being, but they're some type of alien, okay? No, no, stick with the follow of the imagination. Stick with me. Okay. They look the same as you, but they're an alien, they don't have the same DNA, so they're not a human. Okay. But they experience the same as you do. Okay. On par. Okay. Is it okay to kill them? I wouldn't want to kill them, no. Okay. Why? Um... Because, like you said, this species that we're talking about is sentient, and they're very similar to us. Okay. So, it's not the trait human. It's not that they're the same DNA as us, that's why we shouldn't kill them. It's other things. It's their sentience, they experience life like us, yeah? Yes. Okay. So, now we go to cows. Okay. Okay. They are sentient. Do you disagree? Cows are sentient, yeah. They experience life, they suffer, they love their children, they don't want their calves to be taken from them. Yeah. You're against animal cruelty for a reason, yeah? Okay, yes. So, they might not be on the same... A chicken might not be on the same level as you. Yep. So, I might say, if you're not a hypothetical, I have to kill the chicken or you. I'm gonna probably save you if you're a good guy. I would hope so too. If you're not Hitler, I'm saving you. Yeah. I would... You seem like a nice guy. Yeah. Thank you, Joey. And even though I love chickens... Yes. And I'd hope that you maybe if I saved you, you'd stop eating chickens and stop causing suffering. Okay. Maybe that would be a caveat. Okay. But I would save you over the chicken, I think, that it would be more of an injustice maybe to kill you than the chicken. I would hope so, Joey. That would be nice of you. That doesn't mean the chicken still has experience. They're still sentient. Yeah? Yeah. The thing is true, but in my opinion with things like birds or whatever, I wouldn't think their value of life or their importance is nearly near as significant as you or I. I'm not saying that. I actually agree with you there. Okay. But what I am saying is that they are worth more than my taste buds or a five-minute meal that I've digested and flushed down the mall. Yeah. I understand, but we can also expand this to the point of seeing how important meat is to certain industries and the economy right now and if everyone were to stop eating meat, for example, there'd be a lot of job losses and things. I understand. Yeah, we can talk about that. But I want to know if a chicken is worth more, like a chicken's life, is worth more than a five-minute meal for you that you can eat plants. You know that to get there. They have to live in factory farms. Most of the chickens here are factory farmed. Yeah, 95%. Yeah. Deeply concerned for me on a moral level, but however, if I could go to eat more plant-based things and stuff, when that's an option in that case, yeah, it would be better to do that. So what should I do? I think it's completely terrible, though, truly, which... Well, I personally do think because if I took a bird right now and snapped their neck and ate them in front of you, you'd probably say, what did you do that for? You could have just went and got a sandwich. Well, that would be bizarre behaviour, truly. Why? Because I don't often see many people snapping birds next to the public. So what you're essentially doing when you go to buy chicken sandwich, you're paying someone to snap the bird's neck behind closed doors. I've told you this before when I go to the shop like Aldi or whatever and I get meat or whatever. You don't really think about that, do you? But this is why... So what we're trying to get to the bottom of is we're trying to get to the bottom of the morality of paying someone to cut chickens' heads off, raise them in farms. Yeah. You know, we're trying to get to the point where you go, it's an immoral thing to do, basically, because you feel like they are experiencing. The thing is true. I've watched loads of your videos before and when you have these debates with people and you take them down this path and I go, you know what, I actually agree with what Joey's saying here. But it gets to the point where I go, oh yeah, I've watched your video. Joey's made a good point here but am I actually going to do much for myself and go, well next time I go to Aldi oh well, the chicken's really cheap for £1.99. I could go make feet or whatever tonight and I'd do it anyway. So it needs to get to a point because I understand that... Convenience for you? It's convenient You said price? It is well... It's a price and convenience. And then you also said we should keep animal agriculture in existence because of economy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we can do those three things. Yeah, yeah. So if it was more convenient for me to get a tortured dog body, we have to talk about hypotheticals when you have in philosophical discussions because I'm trying to help you... I'm trying to put it in a different context so it makes more sense. So let's just say I could go right there, it's five metres away. Yep. And they're boiling dogs in the back there alive and it's really cruel and you can hear them yelping. Okay. And next thought away it's a bit longer. Let's just say it's 10 more metres. Let's just say it's five kilometres, okay? So it's even more inconvenient. Okay. I can walk straight in there pay for them to boil the dogs. Okay. It's convenient. Okay. Or I can drive five kilometres to get plant-based stuff. Yes. What do I do? You'd get the plant-based stuff. Okay. And what was the other thing? Okay. The dog cost two pounds. Oh, okay. Plant-based stuff. Let's just say it was more. It was five pounds. Yes. And I'm either going to go out and have an extra beer tonight or I'm going to pay for the plant-based stuff. What do I do? You'd go for the plant-based stuff. Okay. But the point is but even on a practical level plant-based foods are cheaper than meat. Okay. Okay. Maybe the meat replacements aren't as cheap as the meat. But like if you go into get your beans and your lentils and your rice and your pasta and your vegetables and your fruits and all this idea of healthier eating as well and stepping aside from the morality as well but that's why I said I would quite like to reduce the amount of meat I eat as well because I think like we said before it's quite hard to just change that. So I'm very open to what you said. Also back to the point of the dogs in this country and that culture especially European culture we wouldn't do that, would we? We would eat dogs. Yeah, but I don't want to know if we do it for its cultural acceptable things like this. I want to know if it's moral if it's an ethical thing to do because we're trying to talk about ethics. We're not talking about some things that are cultural weren't ethical. I would say like going back to the chickens I'd say like a dog is different to a chicken. Yeah, but the things that they have in common are what matters. Yeah, but we're talking about intelligence before in capacity a dog would be more intelligent than a chicken. Possibly, I mean chickens do display amazing traits of intelligence if you've seen some of the science on chickens. I haven't seen some of the science of chickens but I would say that humans have a better affiliation with obviously dogs. You're eating pork at Christmas. Yeah. Do you want to sit down or shall I stand up? Yeah, because if you're eating pigs at Christmas they're scientifically more intelligent than dogs. Yeah. Okay, that's a good point. So why are you eating a pig if you think they're more intelligent than a dog? Going back to the it's more cultural acceptable. I wouldn't eat a dog. I've been... You said intelligence matters. I think it does. You're using that in the argument against the chicken. You said a dog's I wouldn't eat the dog. And I asked you why you're eating pigs because they're more intelligent than dogs. And then you went back to culture. You know what I mean? So I feel like you're going from one to another. We can go culture now. I understand completely what you mean through this. Because with culture when you think about culture female genital mutilation is cultural. Okay. There are many things in cultures that are immoral. So slavery's cultural. It's part of culture. You know? I think this is a racism is cultural. I think this is a far-fetched difference to what I was trying to say. So just because something's cultural doesn't mean that it's moral or immoral. It can be either moral. Cultures can be moral or immoral. Looking after a dog is completely different to the concept of slavery or something. No, no, no. I'm not saying that the same thing. I'm saying that culture doesn't determine what's moral or immoral. No, it doesn't. So we're talking about culture. We're not talking about slavery or this and that. We're talking about... We have to use our own brains as well to make sure that racism is cultural. All these things fall under the banner of cultural. Quite quietly, but yeah. Yeah, so like, just because you go, oh, well it's not cultural to eat dogs. Well, I want to know if it's moral, if it's ethical, if racism's ethical, if slavery's ethical, if killing dogs is ethical. That's what we're trying to talk about. But again, I am conditioned in the way I am because of culture. I've lived in a family that eats meat. I've lived in a country where you can go to the supermarket and it's convenient and that's the way I've been brought up. And that's the way you were brought up as well before you become vegan. Before I changed and realized that culture shouldn't determine morality and I should maybe act in alignment with morality and not what everyone else is doing and what's tradition and what's cultural. Just because you were brought up doing something horrible, you know, I was also from 14 onwards and I was involved in gangs and we were beating each other up and throwing bottles at each other's head and there were shootings and stabbings. Now I was brought up in that culture. I got sober and stopped doing those things. But imagine if I said to you, well, you know, stabbing people's cultural where I'm from, dealing drugs is cultural, you know, you would say, well, no, that's not ethical. But then we go back to the morality bit again because I think the morality in terms of shooting or getting in gangs of people is significantly worse than eating a dead animal. Okay. Well, I'll tell you right now that animal agriculture is worse than any human polycourse that's ever existed. Okay. Just by numbers. On an individual basis, like a human will suffer more than, say, a cow, I don't know how you quantify that. Yes. But when you talk about numbers alone, more animals are butchered and killed in four weeks than human beings have ever existed. Okay. So you're talking about 74 billion land animals a year and one to three trillion marine animals every year. Yeah. Now being tortured on many cases, most cases they are tortured. Yeah. So the birds, the chickens and the fish, most cases they suffer. Well, that's the thing that I would really want to do. We're talking again, we're talking about how humane something would be. Can we do that in a way in which it would reduce the likes of torture or pain for an animal? Well, when you talk about mass farming for human consumption you can't do it without factory farming. There's not enough space you have to intensively farm these animals. Yeah. And there's always suffering. Yeah. And like, let's just say you wanted to instead not factory farm meat, you wanted to hunt. Okay. And they didn't live in a factory farm, you wanted to just like, why are you trying to find right ways to do the wrong thing when you can just be vegan? I understand that. In the UK I've been vegan seven years. It's not hard to be vegan, you know? Okay, but in another point of the future we... Sorry. You good? Taking some info? Well, I've been told I mean... Sorry. I'm not a vegan, I'm a pescatarian. I took my phone out to take a photograph. This eagle turned around, literally turned around. And you might think I'm a little bit crazy.