 Okay, so we're recording this without further ado I'm going to hand over the virtual floor to use the nobia to start your presentation. Thank you. Let me see if the screen sharing will go according to plan today. Let's see. Is this working for everyone. Okay, great. Thank you for having me on this series and thank you very much when for being here to talk about this research. It's a little bit niche nuclear security so I'm going to try and make it as broadly relatable to everyone as possible and different applications and security studies and more studies and defense studies of this research. This is a compilation of probably the last four years worth of research so there's a lot of different directions it goes in. And I'll just quickly walk you through that to start with how it came to be and why and where I hope it's going. And then I'll talk you through sort of our latest paper and data. And I'm really interested to see when what you think about that and how it can be more clear in what I'm saying because I'm good at sort of rambling in different directions. And also where I can take this next how to make it into something a bit more solid and big, maybe get some funding something in that direction. Basically bring it all together. I could really use your insight there. So I'm going to start with for everyone who's wondering what I'm talking about as Amanda said I work at things organizing workshops on nuclear security. And we're talking about civil nuclear industry in a bunch of different countries here. So that's usually very typically a three day activity in a country like Saudi Arabia or South Africa, and we work with professionals who work at labs or power plants or universities or hospitals. And these are quite, they can be introductory courses they can be very in depth. So the first thing we look at is security culture, and my background isn't in security I trained as an archaeologist, which means that maybe I observed some things that people hadn't considered when I started teaching these courses and one of these things was how we were communicating and the language we were communicating in how this affected our teaching and how it had an impact on the learning of the people we were interacting with. Because for example in South Africa there's 11 official languages to start with and then dozens and dozens more on official languages. So they come together in a company and they all try to communicate in English. And that's a very typical thing in the nuclear fields. There's the International Atomic Energy Agency, and they maintain a couple of official languages Russian and Arabic are also on the list. But mostly all the official information is first and foremost communicated in English and the guidance is in English and people try to adapt to this as well so if you're working in nuclear industry in Turkey. So I became very interested in how does that impact security practices. And as you can see from the timeline and papers I created we started by looking at security and education, but this has since evolved a little bit in just generally how do you access information, and then what information is available in the first place so we've sort of gone a little bit in the direction of intelligence and especially open source intelligence as well. And what I'd really like to do with all of this is maybe, you know, get like some nice big postdoctoral funding or I'd be really interested in having a big edited book as well with examples from different countries in different cultures. I just don't really know how to get it off the ground combined with my other research and projects of Kings and ever seem to be able to focus it into something clear that someone will be interested in. And especially at the moment I'm actually on maternity leave. And so I'm producing everything with one hand. That's also why my slides today have a lot of text on them it's mainly for me to remember what I'm talking about, because I'm not even sure what day in time it is right now. Yeah, one of the things that I really wanted to highlight today in the discussion is just language diversity, because we have had a lot of discussions in the nuclear field the last couple years about other imbalances like gender imbalance. I put a picture here of one of our workshops recently where we had 50 people attending, and four of them were women. And that's with us already trying to make an effort this was. This is an example of failure I'd say rather than success. But there's, there's other imbalances as well in my opinion and one of them is language so that's what I want to focus on now the same workshop the picture underneath. So we have a lot of people from more than a dozen countries. These were all Arabic speaking countries, but not all Arabic is the same, which is something that's often assumed when you're producing international guidelines and information just use modern standard Arabic everyone will get it. That's something I'm really interested in looking into how we can talk about nuclear security and make clear what it's about and avoid confusion and avoid miscommunication in different languages and investigates what's the role of English and when do we need to not to use English. And that's also goes into the writing systems we use so a big there's a big difference in Latin or Roman writing versus Arabic writing or another one we've looked at is Korean Japanese Hindi Chinese. And it just doesn't always directly translate the same way or mean the same thing. When you go between languages when you go between writing systems. And that can be difficult because very many nuclear projects have a lot of levels to them. It's not one academic department, you know a power plant they have engineers they have managers they have cleaners they have drivers. They don't assume the same understanding and educational background for everyone. So, why, why has language not really been on the agenda so far in how we work and how we teach, because in a lot of other industries it's already been acknowledged that that's really really important to avoiding confusion to avoiding safety accident security incidents. So this is something I'm interested in just gathering some proper academic data on a nuclear context. Because every time I mentioned this to someone the person on the other side will say oh yeah yeah that's interesting that's probably relevant yes I've had a problem with that before, but there's there's no no data collection so far there's no databases. We know it's of interest that we don't really know what we're doing. I even talked about what was on this slide, but anyway, the example I wanted to mention is aviation industry it's another really high risk industrial sector just like nuclear industry. And I think it's already 10 or 20 years ago they've developed an official aviation English but even before that the last century as aviation has been developing. It was acknowledged that everyone needs to be on the same language page, because otherwise you get issues of the pilot calling the airport and people misunderstanding each other when you're going between so many different countries on a daily basis all the time. There's different acronyms in different countries there's just different ways of expressing things, and that can be really important if you're landing a plane and you need to circle back around. If you don't communicate that clearly and directly straight away. There's that can be big problems and in aviation there have been direct examples of accidents happening because the communication wasn't clear. So I think this is a really useful industry to draw some comparisons from to draw some data from so there are misunderstandings they can be a problem. And there can be this. Yeah, this disconnect so to illustrate this in a nuclear field I've been looking at the difference between safety and security as an example. This is a really quite well known example if you're looking at the field of linguistics there's there's a couple papers on just the safety security translation issue in general unrelated to nuclear. So that's what I've been working with as an example but there, there can be lots of different ways to look at this. But just to illustrate I asked a couple of colleagues and friends from different countries from Bulgaria from Japan. Can you tell me how would you describe what safety is how would you describe what security is, and it just has different connotations and different cultures. For example when I, I put some on the slide here but when I talked to a friend in Turkey they said safety that's when you care for another person security that's the police. So it can mean very different things to different people also individually not just the country and the language. And in a lot of languages it, there's not even two words for it in most languages there's just one word that means both safety and security. And in a couple of languages there's multiple words so you specify you know food safety and health safety there's those are different words and different concepts, which I'm trying to say in English now doesn't translate very well. Anyway, the point I'm making is, even if we were translating all of our teaching materials in nuclear security. And even if we were translating all the nice IAA guides on physical protection and important aspects of security at nuclear sites. The translation, it can't just be, you know, a Google translate direct thing you have to understand the context of the country and the facility you're translating it for. So, one of the projects I did the last year or two was trying to see what information is there about nuclear security to start with. This is something I've worked on with many colleagues including some from King's College. Particularly, I worked with someone from Turkey and someone from Jordan and someone from the US but with knowledge of India to see what information is there anyway about nuclear security and is this accurate. If you're finding it, is this something that's been directly translated and does that make sense to you if you're reading it in a different language. And if you're looking for it, what exactly will you end up with, because a really unique thing about the nuclear field is that it's very secretive, necessarily so. And a lot of documents will be classified so if you're working at the nuclear side those things won't be online on the internet. That's necessary. However, if you are for example a student, or you are someone who's looking to join the field or someone who's been working in the field that wants to switch jobs to a different country. What information can you access that's not classified. And that's something that we as researchers could look into because that's something that we can also access just to open sources on the internet. So we decided to explore that aspect to see what information is there and is that useful. So here's the first example of a case study we did on Turkey don't mind all the tiny tiny print on the slide. Basically what I want to illustrate is if you are doing a search in English for security or safety. Almost all the sources you'll get will be about nuclear energy. So we typed into Google advanced search really specifically nuclear security, but then all the information you get are actually about nuclear energy. And nuclear security sort of came second as a category. And also notably, all of it was related to the civil nuclear field and none of it to, for example, nuclear weapons or non proliferation, even though Turkey does have some involvement with that with NATO. So it's quite curated what's available on the internet. And then when we looked for nuclear safety, most things in Turkey came from the nuclear regulator, but there wasn't any other related information. There was some information about earthquake risk in Turkey, which is very specific to the region and environmental protest. But again, the main sort of the bulk of the pages weren't necessarily nuclear safety themes. It's just a word that might be mentioned somewhere at some point. And then we looked at what happens if you look for the same for the same information in Turkish. And you can see it's still nuclear energy is the main category but also, I think, can I go back between slides here. Yeah, I can. You can see there's actually less information. So there's fewer pages, there's fewer search results in Turkish and also there's fewer categories of information. So if you were someone who's working in the nuclear field in Turkey looking for information about nuclear security, you're better off looking for it in English than in Turkish. And also, the graph I have on the right here is how accurate it was. So if we looked for nuclear security, does the web page actually talk about security or about something else usually safety. And you can see that mostly it was accurate but actually a fairly significant percentage of the searches were also inaccurate. I can't remember from the top of my head now something like 10% or something of the information was not actually translated correctly, or described correctly, because of this confusion between what is safety what is security. As I said this was just one example safety and security you can apply this to other concepts as well like risk and threat is another really big one. There's more of them. So we looked at this in a couple different countries looked in India as well. English is a really big language in India. And there's there's many languages there, but we compared it to Hindi for our own sort of ease for the for the research for the search to start with. I've got some information on other languages as well that I won't be into that now. Again, you can see the difference there's more information in English than there is in Hindi. And also in Hindi safety and security is the same word so there was only one search there. Anyway, so all the categories combined in Hindi there were fewer of them. But of course if you look at the two separate leaders, there's more. And again we looked at what was accurate and what was inaccurate and for India this was much better and we suspect this is because there is also a better command of English particularly in the nuclear fields which is usually a lot of people will put this information out on the Internet will be highly educated or they will be working on quite a high level as engineers and things like this. So they will have been educated in English sometimes in England. So the information in India that was available in English was a lot more high quality than it was in Turkey. And then we also looked at Jordan so Turkey they've, they're in the process of completing a nuclear power plant right now, India they've had nuclear power for decades as well as nuclear weapons, Jordan they don't have a nuclear power plant. They do have a nuclear research reactor. So that's what we would describe as really like a country that's very new to nuclear. So what's the, what's the information availability there. Is there is there anything is it useful. You can see this difference between English and Arabic. There's much, much less in Arabic and I haven't put the numbers in here but we have something like only 30 or 40 search results in general of anything nuclear related in Arabic. And there's much more in English, which I think is really interesting for a country that hasn't even sort of like developed anything nuclear yes already English is the dominant language there and not not the old national language. So much more of it was inaccurate because a lot of the Arabic information was direct Google translate from English and then safety and security get mixed up and other concepts get mixed up. So the inaccuracy of the information increased. We did also have a little look at like all what happens if you look at other countries in Arabic so for example United Arab Emirates they've been operating a power plant for a couple years now. It's actually fairly similar information availability or in availability and inaccuracy to Jordan. I just don't have the data on the slide here. So that's, that's a couple case studies to look at. And I think what's really important here is just this this cultural aspect really goes missing when you're looking for information about nuclear security so on the left here is an image that a colleague of mine made for one of our zoom workshops last year. And she decided to ask the audience in colloquial Turkish about how they felt about the security of of nuclear in Turkey. So not using any of the the professional terminology that we use in the workshop, but just common expressions from Turkey, and this resulted one in a lot more interaction in the workshop but also to in just a better understanding it's not so. It's not so abstract when you're talking about it with each other in that way. I think that's really important because yeah you you might express things differently depending on where you are and who you're talking to, and to take that into your professional communication to make sure everything is clear and everything is understood. So, just in summary of that. As I said, in India, a lot of information is available in English rather than Hindi or other languages. So it does make sense if you're focusing on what information to make available on how to do it to maybe do that in English. And then for Turkey. It, it's sort of the opposite where you might encourage people to learn English professionally but you want to avoid confusion at any point so at the moment the power plant they're building it's being sponsored by Russia so they're having conversations between Russian and English and Turkish, where no one has full command of any of the other two languages. I also not expected that all the Russians learn Turkish and all the Turkish personnel learn Russian. So, you have to take that into account when you're, you know, like us doing our teaching but also publishing any information or when you are onboarding new personnel when you are looking at what students are doing in university right now where that's going. And then for Jordan, as I mentioned at the start, the main issue we encountered there is that a lot of information is a modern standard Arabic and not necessarily regional. I've had conversations with colleagues in Egypt about this as well where they say oh they've the IAA when they do use regional Arabic it's usually sort of Levant Arabic and not more African Arabic and there's different ways in which things can be expressed that can be more clear to people in different regions. So, just on a final note on that as well. As I said, this has gone a little bit from we were looking at nuclear language in teaching and how it works in the workplace and whether there might be confusion but then we went a little bit in the intelligence direction so what information is available, what can you do with that. Is that is that useful or not and why. And part of that is also how and whether you can use the internet. So as I said as researchers this was an easy way for us to start looking into nuclear language and nuclear information we can use open source. So I'm based in the UK and one of my colleagues was based in the US and there's very high internet access and availability there. But then for Turkey that's about 70% for Jordan 66 and then in India if you look at the whole country it's around 35%. So that information availability. It might be there for me but not for everyone else. And then, on top of that you have to take into account that's usually going to be available to people who are from a wealthier background if you have a house and electricity and internet. So if you don't how are you going to learn anything about nuclear so let alone if you are someone who works in nuclear industry or studies nuclear engineering. How will you know about your country's power plants or nuclear weapons if you can't even access any of the information or understand it properly. That's that's another sort of direction we've gone in with this research in general nuclear awareness versus information availability information access. And we did have some useful suggestions in the end so. I'm sorry if it's not clear but separating between suggestions for nuclear industry and suggestions for open source intelligence for nuclear industry. We do think it makes sense to match the education to specific context you're working in and I realized that's not a very sort of novel conclusion. But you know now we've tested it and now we've got some data so it's not just people saying it's from experience or hearing that we know for sure now. And we do also think that it's useful to keep in mind that sort of common language like aviation uses so I guess it doesn't have to be English and a lot of countries in practice Russian I haven't even talked about that. But to make sure that everyone has access to learning that language and understanding that language and that you can talk through it. And in native language versus the common language to make sure it's actually understood rather than just sort of imposed or applied. Which, you know how leaves us with a question, should the IAA also have this you know like aviation has aviation English should we have nuclear English. Or should we put some more effort into, you know, translating the materials into different types of Arabic, or both, who knows. And then, on sort of more the, the OS inside of things. We did think that by looking at nuclear security as an example. The questions. What only available information is there anyway. Our online search is useful and if you want to learn more about this and the answer is not especially. So, can you find information in languages that aren't English, not really do things get mistranslated. Yes, they do. So, not only if you're a person who is working in a nuclear field are interested in joining a nuclear field. It's not only important to those people but also if you are, for example, trying to do some research on it, like I do in academia, but perhaps also in other contexts. What sort of information can you really find from a country and it's not only that it's shielded and secured, which is what the countries generally want. But also what is there is actually not necessarily accurate, which can then give the wrong impression and lead to things like, what are the words like this information and it can actually mean that the information gets used in the wrong way basically. So, even if you want to protect all your really sensitive information it's important that what is available out there is actually correct and used in the right way and understood in the right way. Because nuclear is a pretty, pretty big thing to misunderstand geopolitically. So, yeah, what I really want to say from the combined research is that I think it's useful to look at not just English when you're discussing nuclear security, not only in acquiring information but also in publishing information. To really clarify some key concepts in different languages, because it does influence security practices and it does prevent accidents. I think that was it. Yeah, thanks. Thank you, Zenobia there's certainly a lot of food for thought there and I think what you know was made clear too is that the serious risks involved in the in the lost in translation. Lots to sink our teeth into for sure I'm going to pass the virtual floor over to win for some of his general or more specific comments and commentary. Okay, thank you Amanda and thank you Zenobia for your talk and also you sent me a couple of papers beforehand so I can have a sort of more in depth read looking at the research to. It's a fascinating subject area right I mean you you make the part that is quite niche. And it is quite nice right because we're talking about, you know, some very narrow sort of subject matter. But the importance of linguistics and linguistic differences I think is really really important not just in the nuclear security area but in security in a much broader sense right they can get you into. A lot of trouble I mean you know you just think about, you know, the concept of deterrence for example in the nuclear area in a broader sort of sense is quite it's quite complicated right the Russians look, you know the Russian view the French view that different uses of language and whether they actually have the right terms themselves. So I think you've done a good job I think in the in the research demonstrating the importance of nuance in nuclear language, the miscommunication potential. I think through the through the three case studies Turkey India Jordan you've, you've I think identified some important questions so that the research kind of comes up with questions, well should we be doing this and should we be doing that. You know, the question of is information accurate in a different language when it sort of translated across. So I think some of the important points you make around in the paper. So about, should we be matching education and training to specific information needs of nuclear power program, you could power programs, you know, for human resource development, for example. You talk about, you know, nuclear English and whether that's we should be pursuing that taking the lead from the aviation area I think that's a really interesting and important question. You do make the point you know about this diversity aspect and the inclusion aspect is about, you know, do we need to look beyond these internationally dominant languages right and spend a lot of effort trying to make nuclear security related information accessible, you know, and so that it's published in different languages, etc. Although that obviously would take a quite resource challenge there to be able to do that. And you make the important point to that nuclear, the nuclear sector whether it's military or civil in nature is very secretive right so that's a key underpinning factor here to is that much much nuclear security information for very good reason is not open and accessible as well. So really interesting set a couple of readings and join listening to you talk now. I've got three main points but before I do that listening to you talk about this is a bit of a back to the future moment for me so from 2001 2006 you know I worked with colleagues at Kings on on a lot of open source work looking at nuclear safeguards issues rather than nuclear security issues. So the distinction is more is about making sure that countries that have civil nuclear programs don't transfer their nuclear material into a weapons program, so it's safeguarding against that. And we did a lot of work at Kings on that for for many years, and we used to work in different languages, you know, so we did a lot of work in English, obviously, but we did a lot of work in local languages to including Turkish actually, but also, you know, Arabic and other local languages to of interest. One of the things I remember there was we used to do a lot of content comparison on national atomic energy agency websites. So the National Authority, and we weren't looking at content comparison for accuracy, you know, in terms of the language but just in terms of the, just the sort of the raw content. Are they saying things in one language in more detail than they would be in English. And we were looking at that in terms of transparency issues so looking at in a different way, but it doesn't make me sort of come back to this issue of yeah this is really important stuff very interesting stuff. We used to do a lot of specialized searching to around much more granular terminology, mostly in English, you know, related to parts of the uranium enrichment process for example. It would be interesting to see whether we could, you could do that in by taking Europe right which is seeing whether or not you can develop you know a glossary of different of these very specific terms to use across different languages and what you get from that. Anyway, I'll stop reminiscing. So, I got I got three three general points to make the first point, I think, is around the audience for the work for the papers. And I think across reading the papers and listening to you today. There are various, various audiences for this work right there's researchers there's nuclear operators nuclear regulators, academics, policymakers nuclear security professionals, I think you mentioned journalists at one point in there too. I think what would would be good going forward is to perhaps have a bit more clarity around the audience, which this research is focused on. So really these are really, really important issues. Absolutely. Totally get that. But sometimes I was asking the so what question you know the academic so what question. And yes there's a so well because we know it but actually I think the clarity over the audience would help with that so what bit. So, and it will help with laying out objectives of the work to. Part of this might be working through is the priority for the work you're doing. Nuclear security and making sure things don't happen. Or actually you're more interested in the inclusive bit to make sure that you know everybody has an opportunity to understand the issues involved. So I think that's that's my first general point. My second point is about is more of a pet issue I suppose a little bit is about open source, open source intelligence as a discipline. So, as academics. All we do is deal with open source information of one various type, but most people in an academic sense wouldn't label that as as open source intelligence as such. I struggle a little bit with the idea that open source intelligence is a discipline. I think it's a method to achieve an end, which is you have a research problem and you apply open source intelligence to that research problem. I'm more comfortable with thinking of open source intelligence as something that's done in the private sector. I think it's time to that you know it's something that you know when you've got very specific research problems that is something that is done in academia to anyway that's one of my pet issues is like you know is this a real discipline by itself. And then my final point actually no it's not my final point. I got some more from listening to you talk I've got more points. So my final sort of point that I've thought about before you start speaking was around some of the examples that you use. It's a real area to go forward with. So you talk about the nuclear power plant, being built in the UAE by the KEPCO from South Korea. And you talk about, you know, two dozen country people from two dozen countries involved in the construction of that and the multiple scripts problem that generates. I'm wondering whether actually, you know, the UAE and the South Koreans are quite open to have conversations actually with people I mean I've, I've had conversations with officials from both countries on the nuclear side for different projects in the past. I'm wondering whether or not you could actually just approach them and just ask them about right okay you know is this a problem in that sort of practical hands on sense, you know, it may not be a problem so I think that could be one really interesting area to drill down going forward. And it's a general point to I think what one of the paper quotes in the paper you've got is real life case studies and practical solutions remain limited right and that's, that's a challenge for a project like this. And I think it's how can you prize open those case studies as examples that you can really drill down into the other one obviously you talked about the International Civil Aviation Organization and the lessons. I'm wondering whether or not you could draw those lessons, really specifically the nuclear security area and potentially look at the lessons and just you could create some surveys you could do some research interviews with practitioners in the nuclear security area to ask the same sort of questions to start generating a sense of what a sense of what practitioners in the security area think, think is whether there's sort of read across or not. And that could then in itself help to generate research questions and ideas that you could then you could then look at. I think, you know, this was my project, what I would be thinking about doing is like the next step for me would be trying to understand whether there have been incidents or accidents related to nuclear security, where language has been a problem, because of linguistic differences, and the various other things that you identified. I know that's difficult, because companies and governments sometimes don't like to talk about whether they've been problems. It's so valuable if you could try to see whether that has been an issue so I guess I guess field work. I'll finish off by you talk about funding. You know as an area to discuss. I think I go back to my point I think it may be worthwhile doing some field work some interviewing in a light sense, just to start to pull together some interesting research questions and go from there. I think you could make a case for you know looking at the civil aviation or authority organization. I'm looking at the read across there if that hasn't been done properly before because I think that's a really interesting area. And I mentioned the KEPCO one in South Korea to the final thing I'd say is and this is I say to most academics. You mentioned an edited book. And the first thing I thought why not edited book why not a authored or co-authored book. It's much better for you in terms of academic progression to have authored or co-authored books against against your name. I've been interested in hearing what other case studies you might think about looking at, you know, the on the three that you've worked with colleagues on so far. And then also just then going back to that the audience of that book who that book be with that book be targeted at. And so I'll stop there I've talked for too long, but fascinating area really enjoyed reading the papers and listen to you talk so I hope those comments have been vaguely useful. Thank you so much. I think your first comment on who the audiences is. That's very helpful. Because it started out as the audiences the people we teach in the workshop so nuclear operators regulators. I do think I will try and like explain myself better in that looking at inclusion will then lead to improving security. I think the two are connected is what we sort of realized along the way. So when, when everyone at the, the organization we're working with is included in the communication that you can prevent security incidents. So inclusion leads to security. But yeah, the main audience to start with was was the audience from the workshops. I also agree that I'm also a little bit new to OSIN this discipline which is why I titled my presentation information rather than open source intelligence because I do see it as working with information in different ways as a researcher. So, yeah, I get that one. And let me see. Yeah, so about working with for example, aviation. I got the idea because someone was already doing that. So I attended a presentation at INMM one time, where some researchers had been looking at the comparison between nuclear industry and aviation. So I don't want to steal that from them but also it's not actually published anywhere. So the next step there is to maybe get in touch with them and see where that's at. And then about doing some fieldwork that's exactly what I've been trying to do the last sort of two years. But I, my funding applications keep getting rejected. And then on top of that, we got COVID pandemic. So I had to auto rejections last year where they just said we won't consider it because you can't travel anyway. And a lot of the interesting things are kind of tied to being on site in how comfortable people are talking, but also access to people in general, like the site we work with in South Africa, a lot of people, I wouldn't be able to zoom them. So it is a little bit fieldwork dependent, which is a little bit funding dependent. I just need to make my argument better, I suppose. And which the same goes for collecting some examples of nuclear incidents related to language. I have a strong feeling they are there because we look at nuclear security so much and nuclear security culture and culture ties in with communication. So a lot of the security culture examples we have of accidents in the past are related to how people communicate just not necessarily how it's translated so that's the next thing that I'd really like to get some details on. But it's difficult to get people to open up about that understandably. And the other region I'm really interested in looking at for case studies is countries that use Russian as a language rather than English. So I've been working with a colleague from Belarus on on a paper for this for the IAA conference in Moscow this summer. But it's been quite difficult to get people from other countries involved so I'd really like to work with someone from Ukraine, maybe also any country in Central Asia that uses Russian to develop some case studies that aren't completely centered around English, because I do have some data from colleagues in Belarus in Ukraine that they have some issues translating directly between Russian and their own languages. And issues translating between Russian and their own language and English as well. So I think that's another really interesting direction to go in. I've also talked to colleagues in South America about English versus Spanish versus Portuguese and other local languages. And I've even had a colleague from Canada bring up, not just the difference between English and French, but they are concerned that there's no information about anything nuclear for any anyone who doesn't speak English and French in Canada. So that's very niche, but still to me very interesting. And then, yeah, the last point you made about a book is everyone tells me that I should offer my own book for academic purposes. It's just, I guess I'm not as academic at heart. And I'm more interested in in the in the nuclear industry side of things. So I'd really like to showcase different examples from different people from different countries and gather them together and also a little bit give them more of a platform to have another book written by someone in the UK about this but really have some some chapters from people from different countries and from different organizations. So that's not so good for me, but my my interest there really is sort of the diversity in the field. But maybe you know maybe what I need to do is both. I think that's excellent responses there. I think on the with the research grant site. I wonder whether you need to convince somebody up your chain of command in Kings to give you some seed seed funding to do some initial feed work because I think sometimes you need to do a little bit of field work to be able to put together some strong research applications, grant applications, because it just gives that granularity to it. You know if you can demonstrate through conversations already that there's a research problem here. And here's the evidence for it. We just need to dig into that. And that's why I was finally the funding so perhaps go to suggest names but perhaps I'm going to give you some seed money to do that. So along that note choose no be I think, I guess it depends how you frame the question or, you know, the intent to folks and sort of conversation but I was actually quite surprised at what people talk about over zoom now, and I don't know if we've just all got interested or used to zoom over the last two years but you know I have, I have a colleague who's working on issues of sexual based gender violence, which is a very sensitive topic and she's been able to conduct interviews with perpetrators of the violence and victims as well over zoom, and they feel comfortable having those conversations which normally you would think you could not have that conversation satellite. But I don't know if this is changing now because again people are getting used to more of a virtual space. You know additionally someone you might want to talk to is Claudia Airdow with her massive EU grant on migrants crossing the border, which is also a very politically sensitive discussion where she's actually interviewing and they've developed certain interview strategies because of COVID they couldn't go face to face but how they could have certain conversations while still protecting these people's identity so I think there is some strategies out there and if it's just about, you know, establishing some, some sort of basis for a problem for then which to apply you know to talk to people further up the chain at King's or for the grant money if you can at least demonstrate like when said there's a problem here so that just might be something not to totally foreclose because I get that I felt that way too there's certain conversations you can't have online but now apparently there are conversations you can have online so it's just yet it's it's it's fielding that out. This, that's, that's my two cents on research field work and the virtual space. We have a question here by Santiago Sandra who says hi everyone is there any written resource like a dictionary or glossary about nuclear security where anyone could search a specific word. There is the IAA does have a nuclear security glossary an official one in, I think five or six languages, and a lot of countries will have their own unofficial ones as well. The issue I have with those is that they're usually yeah literally like a list of translations what's the word for that rather than explaining why something is translated in that way so the IAA glossary for Russian has a couple of translators notes and also the one for Spanish I think saying we decided to explain this in this way for these reasons or this is just an addition to what this means after you've translated it but they've done that for maybe six words or something. So, there are translations but you just have to trust that you understand them and that they are right. So they're not very sort of practically useful translations and also yeah the IAA only officially does it for a couple of languages. So for example Turkish doesn't have one. Okay, great. And then we had someone in the chat box. Oh, same word Santiago is just says you know greetings from Argentina so you have a global audience here is the novia and says really great presentation so yeah I mean this is so much food for thought and I can't wait to see how this, you know how how you're thinking about this and what sort of projects derive from this that you know taking this forward I look forward to continuing these conversations with you. So no via for sure. And again want to thank you and win so much for taking the time out of your day. Thank you so much for leaving the novia for for having this conversation with us. So, and thank you so much for the audience for you know for listening in and engaging with with this work so those are my final comments I don't know if you'd like to say. Thank you for for inviting me for this and for having a listen to my research. It's been really interesting so thank you. Okay great and for those of you who still want to learn more about the novia's work she will have a blog post coming out with critical military studies in due course so please watch out for that. And since this presentation has also been recorded so if you've missed some of it or if you want to watch it again, or circulated amongst your networks, please watch the space you'll be on war studies YouTube channel but also circulated through the school security studies, Twitter and Facebook handles. And thank you so much everyone and have a great afternoon. Thanks no via.