 little way here on a Monday morning, I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech, The Handsome Young Man, is Chang Wong. We're gonna talk about from here to there with immigration lawyer Susan Cohen. Welcome Chang, welcome Susan, nice to see you. Great to be here, thank you. So Chang, can you introduce Susan and try to be fair about this? Cause immigration lawyers, they get a bum rap these days. Everybody always says there's no more immigration law. How come there are immigration lawyers? Good point, David. Well, it is my great honor and pleasure to introduce Susan. Legendary, nationally recognized lawyer, I have the fortune to call a mentor and friend, as chair of the Means of Immigration Party, and Susan called a work with corporate clients and to address the constant immigration challenges. Susan is very active in American Immigration Lawyer Association and a country built with federal and state immigration regulation. It's frequently quoted by media. It's an editor of the Means of Immigration Law blog and a recognized as popular author of Edie Supra. Very interestingly, you may know that Susan led a team of Means lawyers working with the ACLU of Massachusetts and to obtain a temporary with any other DRO of the 2017 Trump Tribal Bank. For her proposed work, they have helped many immigrants who have been obtained asylum. But today, we invite Susan to be on the show cause she just published a book, The Inspiring and Assault Powering Book on Immigration. The title is Journey's Problems There to Hear Stories of Immigrant Files and a Contribution. Receiving real reviews and short to help to the number one Amazon bestseller in a slew of different categories. I've read this book and I'm pleased to report it's a very, very good read. The famous writer was exiled from Albania and the Greek. Somali Norman turned multinational banker in Asian war virtuoso, violentness with perfect pitch and many more. With eye-opening collection of immigrant files, the views leading function immigration lawyer Susan Cohen invite you to walk her client and their shared incredible journey coming to America overcoming unimaginable dangers and often the heart breaking of those frauds. When massively of these marginalized voices, they embody the remarkable realities of staggering worship and inspiring resilience. I see you'll read this book, right? Roy, often. Okay, okay, Chang, we're gonna use the whole show on the introduction. Let's get to Susan. Susan, why'd you become an immigration lawyer? Is it because you're empathetic with people that you have a big heart? Is that what it is? Tell us. I guess, Jay, it turns out that that seems to be the case because I didn't think that's what I was gonna do with my life. I started out thinking that I was gonna be a corporate litigator and I joined my firm, Men's Levin, which is a large corporate law firm in Boston. A wonderful place. I've been there my whole career, 36 years. But I started out doing litigation and then I had an experience where I got to represent as a very junior associate like a second year rising first second year associate an amazing Japanese potter who was doing his visa and residency at Harvard and at a very special museum called the Peabody Essex Museum. And this guy was here with his whole family and he carried on this traditional pottery that was very unusual, seven generations. It was the seventh generation potter. His work was exquisite. I ended up being a lucky one to put his case together. Got a green card for him and his family and it was so incredibly meaningful to me. They were so grateful. Their life trajectory was changed for the better in a way that they had deeply wanted but didn't know if it would come to pass. And we had a wonderful celebration and I felt so good about it that I changed course and decided to start an immigration practice at my law firm. But that's- You know, that's so funny, Susan. My first immigration case also involved a Japanese potter who I'm friendly with even today. Ask your client if he knows Yukio Ozaki. They know each other. I guess they do. I have his case bound, Velo Bound on the bookshelf of my office because it's the very first immigration case I ever worked on. And I remind myself all the time that I was inspired and I love this work. I love helping people and it's not easy. No, it's hard these days. And on my joke before we began is there still immigration law? I mean, I know some immigration lawyers here in Honolulu that swear there's nothing they can do anymore. Even in the day of Biden, it's much harder to help people. Am I right? You are right. And there are reasons for that. Would you like me to talk about them? Yes. I would be delighted. And it's very nice to share this opportunity with you and your watchers today. I mean, it kind of wraps into why I wrote the book. So maybe I'll say a little bit about why I wrote the book and then it will lead us inexorably into the question of why is it so difficult today? So why did I write journeys from there to here? It wasn't like I'd ever really planned to write a book. I just was in the trenches every day helping my clients like this wonderful gentleman in front of us. And putting in very long hours as you probably know because you are an immigration lawyer. So you know how hard it is, how long the hours are and you're very tired at the end of the day. But then President Trump came along. He started campaigning and during his campaign and his presidency, President Trump unleashed the severe virulent xenophobia. You know, xenophobia in the United States rises and falls over the course of time and history. And during President Trump's era, he unleashed tremendous hatred of immigrants and xenophobic rhetoric across the country. And he used his platform and he used his presidency once he became president to restrict immigration in the form of approximately 400 standalone separate moves that he did as policy regulations, the travel bans and he used his bully pulpit in my opinion as a platform to spew a lot of exaggerations and generalizations and stereotypes about immigrants painting all immigrants with a broad brush as murderers and rapists and terrible people. You know in the late of that, even though I was working so hard trying to help people after President Trump got elected because it became so much harder for immigrants after that, I decided that the only way to counter that narrative of fear mongering and painting all immigrants with one broad brush as terrible people was to try to showcase the human face of immigration by delving into individual stories of wonderful people that I picked for this book who are representative of so many other thousands and hundreds of thousands and millions of immigrants to the United States. It's a large representation across the book of all the different people that are featured to give the public insight into how hardworking, how wonderful immigrants truly are and what they bring to the country, how much they have to overcome before they even get here, the stuff they are made of, the resilience, the strength of creativity. Give me your tired masses turning. I wanted to celebrate our common humanity and have people walk with each of these people through their journey to create a bond and to show them the only way to counter stereotypes is to tell stories. It's a storytelling exercise. Look at each of these people and what they had to overcome to get here and how incredible their work is and how much they're benefiting us and how we're lucky that they're here. Really, the book is about a celebration, truly a celebration of immigrants and we need to remember that we should always be a nation of immigrants. It's an uplifting book. It's an uplifting read at the end of the day. You go through some dark passages along the way in each person's chapter because many of the reasons they fled and came were dark reasons. I don't want to give too much away because I hope people will buy the book and read the book. All the proceeds are going to charity. Good for you. From there to here on Amazon. Thank you. I really mostly wanted to have something for people to read and make them feel good. There's so much bad news these days. There's so much bad news, not just in the immigration sphere, but we wake up every day to pretty discouraging headlines. But when you pick up the book, you feel good about the country. You feel good about the principles of immigration and you know that immigrants really make our country. I hope it, by the way, somebody's got a typist nearby and that sound is getting on our soundtrack. I can hear somebody typing. I can hear your question. Why things are so hard? I also wanted to shine a spotlight through these narratives of the downsides and the flaws and the faults in the immigration system and the way the immigration laws and the system are administered by different agents. It's true, but I'd like to lay an environment first, Susan. This country with the Statue of Liberty and the poem about what was her name, Lazarus, you know, the great Colossus, I think the poem was called. You know, it's the definition of the country and indeed, you know, from an economic point of view, it has made the country over a couple hundred years great. And of course, this isolationism, nationalism, xenophobia doesn't help going forward because we lose the prospect of that going forward. And what I think though, ultimately is where we, our immigration laws need to be reformed. And I'd like to ask you about that. I had a friend who served as counsel in the House immigration committee for a lifetime. And he waited and waited and waited for immigration reform. And it didn't really happen. You know, I suggest to you that we need that. But the other thing is, and this is really important, borders in our lifetimes in the past decade, even have been dissolving. That's before the migrant issue happened in Europe. But until the migrant issue happened, until nationalism reared its head, borders were dissolving. And I suggest to you, Susan, that in the future, borders may dissolve even further. And we may find a borderless world. And in many ways, it appeals to me, although, you know, Trump's claim that terrible people slip in. Bottom line is that, aren't we ultimately looking for a better world, a world without borders? A world where immigration law is very kind and gentle. Aren't we looking for that? Well, that's a very lofty and noble goal, Jay. And I agree with many of the thoughts that you just referenced. I don't think it's going to happen in our lifetime. And in the meantime, we are dealing with borders and we are dealing with officers that, you know, are not always very kind and don't always administer the law equally to everybody coming across the border. We have the people fleeing from, you know, fleeing from horrific, atrocious situations where their lives and their family's lives are in danger. And while we still have the system that we have, you know, our job as lawyers is to at least try to make sure that the law is applied equitably and that when people take advantage of people that were lucky enough to represent, that we stand up for them and we fight them tooth and nail to make sure that the Constitution is upheld and their rights are protected. And, you know, that includes asylum seekers, you know, and it's really, really important that we get the borders back to a state where people are admitted to be able to make or at least make the case about why they are requesting asylum and not, you know, my short-term goals is to try to fight for anyone who comes to me for help and not just on an individual basis, but in class actions and all the federal court litigation that I try to do to protect large... I thought you wanted to get away from litigation, Susan. Yeah, well, at certain times it feels pretty good. You know, I'll sue the government. I don't have any hesitation in suing, you know, the Department of Homeland Security or the president by name if necessary to make sure that my client gets what he or she deserves. So are there cases, Susan, where you say to the client, you know, I don't think you're a terrible person, but you're not a good enough person that I should represent you and you'll have to go to someone else to help you. You have those kinds of situations. That's a great question, Jay. As a matter of fact, I've had some cases like that where I wasn't sure if the person in front of me was the kind of person that I wanted to represent. And, you know, as Chang alluded to, I kind of get a lot of inquiries all from people all over the world because, fortunately, I've developed a reputation. And sometimes I get agents representing dictators contacting me. I don't take those cases, as you might imagine. I once had someone who worked in the, you know, the Serbian Croatian War in a concentration camp and swore to me that he didn't persecute or harm other people, but I wasn't sure. And I actually paid for the lie detector test out of my pocket and had him take a lie detector test, which didn't, and the results didn't satisfy me. And I declined to represent that person. And there have been a few other people whose names I can't mention, but they're very common, well-known people who have been on the front pages, and I have declined some of their cases as well. But most of the people, I try to find a way to help. I mean, if I believe in them and their cause, and you know, if they're hurting and they can't, and they've tried everything and they've had other lawyers and no one's been able to help them, that tends to be the cases that really pull at my heart strings. Like, they only have one more shot, right? And it's either I win or God knows what will happen to that person and his or her family. So I get highly motivated to do everything. The stakes are very high. It's really essentially life or death for a lot of your prospective clients. And I wonder how that, you know, how that affects your practice and your state of mind when you handle it, it's pretty stressful to handle a capital murder case because the fellow, you know, may be executed. And that's not too far off from being sent back to a world where you will be executed. There is no stronger motivator to dot your eyes and cross your teeth and do everything possible in your human power to save someone when you know their life is on the line. And it's stressful. And the stress doesn't go away till you win the case. And it's stressful for them and their families and their friends, you know. So there's so many people worried, you know, all the time in this country. And, you know, we just have to do the best we can. But I, yeah, I get a lot of massages. Sure. Yeah. It's the stress, you know, the worry about my clients days resides in my, in my person. And I have to exercise it on a weekly base. We can see. Before we go to Chang, I know he has questions for you. I do want to ask one other thing, you know, back in the day seems my, my observation was the immigration lawyers, I mean, immigration officials were pretty tough, but they were human being and you could talk to them and you could appeal to them and they, you know, they would, they would respond to you in Hawaii. We have a certain amount of corruption in the immigration service and known. But, you know, by the large, they were okay to deal with. It strikes me that it's not just Trump. It's maybe the legacy of Trump. They're right now immigration officials are really in a different world. And they're much tougher. They really don't care. They're not, they're not sympathetic. And in fact, you know, they're, they're, they're out to throw people out of the country. That's their, you know, motivation. And then, of course, you have a, a skating down of the weapons, the tools, the kit bag that is available to the immigration lawyer. Now, how does that work? What are your favorite kit bag tools these days in order to try to help people? I think you hit the nail on the head there. There's definitely been a shift. And I think it did get very much exacerbated during the Trump era because the dialogue, there used to be a very healthy dialogue between the immigration bar, immigration lawyers and the different agencies within DHS, you know, US citizenship and immigration services, Press, EISN and CBP, and there were liaison groups, and we would meet on a, you know, regular basis and, and they'd answer questions and we'd have ability to pick up the phone and call those people. And during Trump shuttle, of that down. And it's, it's, you know, So the legacy of the Trump area is very, is Aira is particularly severe in law. It's going to be long lasting because it takes a long time try to undo a lot of what was done, to reduce civility and connection between immigration lawyers and the people working in the agencies. So, you know, I can now I have to appeal to the highest level. And unfortunately for me, I'm lucky I have some access over years of developing it over many, you know, three plus decades. But, you know, every time one of those very high level people that I have a good relationship with retires is like one less person right that I can go to. So, I use the threat of media attention in on a very regular basis in my practice. Because, you know, so often the ideas that some of these agents have but they would like to do shut down options for people. And the human consequences of their, you know, uncaring attitude and even disregard of the actual requirements under the policy and the law sometimes can only be countered with the threat of, you know, a big spread in the news about what the consequences would be. Right now I have a family I'm trying to help three kids. And unfortunately for them both their parents who were on the visas that we're keeping them here illegally both tragically died within a year of each other leaving some teenage kids three or often kids. And, you know, I'm trying to get a special status for those kids. And it's called deferred action and it was, you know, give them a chance to get back on their feet and mourn and grieve and be with the community that they found. And if the government doesn't grant it. That's, that's going to be a story in the newspapers to try to make them do the right. You know, that's all you can do. Sometimes you have to use that. But that works. And I guess, even in these difficult times. There is a readership, a readership out there who reads that media report, and who finds it objectionable. And would, you know, would would sympathize with, with the immigrant. Yes, yes, and you can galvanize a lot of public support, which can go a long way and I've done that a lot in my career. You know, leading campaigns of public support to try to help save an immigrant who deserves to be saved and not kicked out of the country. It's by case, it's case by case. And, you know, I had it, I think I described it in the epilogue of my book one of my partners served in the Bush administration at a very high level and a very key department executive agency of the federal government, American citizen, and he was traveling across the border between Mexico and Texas. And he observed customs and border protection officer mistreating the woman in line in front of him, and he spoke up for the woman and he said to the guy, you really should speak to people in a nicer way you're representing the United States through the first, you know, base of the US that anyone sees and you know you should treat everyone with kindness and respect. And the guy took my, my partner was a senior partner in a corporate law firm and he took him into secondary inspection he said, you can't talk to me like that and he stripped them of his global entry. He took his global entry away it was a complete abomination, you know, abuse of discretion by a customs and border protection agent. And my partner is a powerful guy, a very powerful lawyer, and CBP, this, you know, basically, you know, took this, this, this right that he had, which he was entitled to which he had earned and applied for under legitimate process took it away in a second. He would think something like that would happen and throw third world country right, not in the United States though, fortunately for this guy I mean he knew me and I was able to go to the head of the global, you know, global entry department in Washington DC and they were horrified that it happened, but and it took still it took like four to six weeks to overturn the denial and get it reinstated. You know, like what other people do you know, that's an awful story. You just fall it out when you see it that's the thing that's really you got to talk truth to power, and fairness and equity to power. And you know it's a great concern to me, I'm going to turn this over to Chang now is that over time, these stories have a way of permeating the global environment, and where we used to see the Statue of Liberty and all that it stood for. And now we see this this hard nose, grossly unfair immigration service that that almost enjoys dumping on people. This is very troubling not only to the people involved and to right thinking citizens but to the whole world. Our image has been tarnished by the emergence of these new strains you're talking about, or old strains concurrent. Let me go to Chang Chang I know you have questions so I'm turning this witness over to you. Remember two years ago I interviewed you for BBC article on immigration, and you talked about the immigration status at that time. And at that time was a very not very promising because a year ago Donald Trump and nutrition just removed, rewrote the entire United States citizenship and location services to SCF emissions. In the original mission statement agents to SCF or serving a nation of immigrants. And at USAF removed that sentence. That sentence is not simply it's body, it's a very large implication. The good news is recently SCF reporting that USAF leadership is asking all the employees to describe the immigration agency's mission is three words to help them to rewrite the mission. Now to reworking back to the original but to a new mission statement, if you were USAF officer, so what words did you like? Yeah, it's, it was horrifying to me when that happened. And the saddest thing is that I know the guy who ended up rewriting the mission statement I was very disappointed in him. And when he did that, because they took away the reference to the nation of immigrants and they also took out the word customer. And you know, they just don't. And like Jay was saying, the removal of terms that can out respect just is is you know an indicator of a lack of caring and lack of concern and a lack of respect for immigrants. And that changing of the mission statement was a reflection of an America first very nativist sort of orientation around immigration. But the United States always will be a nation of immigrants. I mean right now, there's 43 million people in the United States that were born in another country. We are a nation of immigrants, and we must always be a nation of immigrants. So the way I would rewrite the mission statement, I would, I don't think three words are enough. I don't think you can rewrite the mission statement with just three words but I would think maybe maybe two or three sentences. And if it were up to me, it would be something like that US CIS is committed to ensuring that the United States remains a nation of immigrants, and to providing immigration benefits fairly with transparency equal access to all. And, you know, in, in an equitable manner, and efficiently, efficiently. It was do concern for human values. And, and, you know, there's so much inefficiency and in the system and it's there's so much carelessness in the system so I think then mission statement needs to reflect an attitude that immigrants are people to they deserve any of us could be in a heartbeat. In a situation where an immigrant to another country, you have to put ourselves in other people's shoes it really has to come down to almost like a biblical notion. You know, do unto others as you would wish people would do to, you know, to and for you like be treat other people the way you would want to be treated. And that's kind of simplistic for the mission statement so I would use some of the other language that I gave you, you know, but efficiency is a problem like things are taking forever now to get approved and employment authorization cards went from 90 days free Trump. Now, even with Biden as presidents, having a lot of trouble getting the processing times back to normal amounts of time where people can live with. In a few days it's like eight to 10 months to get an employment card now you know citizenship applications are taking a year and a half used to take, you know, five to six months. Why is that Susan it sounds like a culture point within the immigration service that it sounds like, you know, a change in attitude. It's, I think it's a perfect storm between, you know, the legacy of the Trump area where, you know, they took a lot of people out of service, and then cove it hit. And then the, you know, the back legs grew exponentially as due to the combination of both of those things, but providing more officers to the different adjudication lines is really really important but not charging people more people pay enough for these applications. Not paying enough that they should get efficient and not careless service from the government, and they deserve it. Okay. Great. Well, I'm, you know, Susan, you know, talk about immigration reform now it's more complex than when my buddy served as counsel for the House immigration committee. Because of the, you know, the, you know, the process dynamic you've described. And I wonder, you know, how the president in a right thinking administration could fix that because it sounds to me like there are people that populate the ranks, including high ranks in the immigration service that are perpetuating, there's very serious human rights problems there, and the failure to abide by the law failure to follow the rule of law is what we have. And there are a lot of officers in the immigration service, who need to be reminded of that. So what, what does the president do what can the president do. What should the president do. The president sets the tone for the, for the service for the Department of Homeland Security and for the country, and president can actually do a lot it's you know I think Biden has good intentions, but there's so many things that have to be fixed it that his is being divided, but there's some easy fixes, easy things that he could do. For example, why is it the case that every time someone applies for an immigration benefit, they have to get their fingerprints taken again, and again, and again. The people's fingerprints to change over time. No, one fingerprinting is enough to run any number of background checks over the number of years that someone has applications pending. And it takes so much longer to process those fingerprints than it used to, and the background checks have slowed down and so that's one of the reasons why things you know all these applications are taking so long so you should never make anyone get more than once easy. Why do we need to have in person interviews for a lot of immigration benefits when everything's already been vetted behind the scenes through security checks and the information has been reviewed. Used to be that we didn't need in person interviews and then Biden came along and reinstated in person interviews and the Trump and I mean that Trump did that and Biden hasn't changed it back yet but that's something easy. He could direct the officers to adjudicate the cases on the papers, and for the most part, except where there's a concern about fraud or a problem, and they want to interview the person, you know, sitting down in an office but most of the time, benefits can be adjudicated without an interview. The same thing can happen outside the country at embassies and consulates, you know, especially for, you know, renewals of someone's visa where they've already been approved once. There really shouldn't be a need to make people to go back in person to an embassy and those backlogs are like up to a year now year and a half in some countries because of COVID delays. Just apply for a visitor visa in some countries, he's got to wait a year to get an appointment. That's ridiculous. You know, but you don't you shouldn't need to go in person for a lot of these things, but that's something he could do. I think training for the officers I think would be really important. And some of us me included are advocating that there should be some kind of a pilot program where there's watchdogs at the airports and the borders, keeping an eye on the transactions that are happening between the CBP officers and people coming across someone looking over their shoulder to make them do the right things that they don't abuse their power. It can become quite power hungry when no one is looking and that's when a lot of bad abuses happen. We need to have some kind of a pilot program to institute some kind of monitoring of that. But what about monitoring for, you know, meanness and, you know, inappropriate actions on applications and exercise of rampant power just for the sake of being mean and all that. And an attitudinal problem that surfaced and was exacerbated while Trump was in office, which he welcomed which he encouraged. Can't we go the other way on that and say look you're going to be rated on how, how kind you are, you can be rated on, and whether you stand for the principles of this country or not. And if you don't, your career will be affected your promotion will be affected, and you may lose your job. We need sanctions in order to reverse the attitudinal decline. What do you think? I think it's a really interesting idea, Jay. I think in practice, it's going to be difficult to achieve that because, you know, there are a lot of officers who are embedded in the agencies that don't feel the same way that you do, and I do. So it's going to take a long time to transition people out and bring in new fresh faces and people who believe in those principles to enforce those kinds of actions. So it's kind of come from the top, you know, if your boss does looks the other way, nothing is going to happen. So, you know, we need to hold them accountable and thinking a variety of ways, not just internally inside the agencies because you don't really trust that it's always going to happen the right way. But those of us who are watching, we need to be vocal, we need to call out problems when we see them we need to write op eds and newspaper articles on, you know, blog posts to show the world when things go wrong and shame people into, you know, being better, treating people with the respect and dignity that they deserve, because otherwise, it's just going to keep spiraling down and getting worse. So, you know, those of us who are immigration lawyers and, you know, in the business of representing clients through the immigration practice, we all have an obligation to take it a step further for people when we need to. And that's what I do when I see it I go to the district director, and the district director in any city, you know, oftentimes has the same ideals that I do, and is horrified when he or she hears that one of the officers has acted out of line. But there's sometimes a big disconnect, you know, so they need to treat a lot of internal trainings and I think sensitivity training is very important. It's going to happen. I can't tell you if it's really going to happen that way. After all that we've said and what I've heard from other immigration lawyers is that it's harder to practice immigration law these days, because of the resistance you get to a clear case which you know you feel legally is a clear case. And the immigration service through these personnel are likely to reject that notion and make it as hard as they can for you. And of course, you know, the human rights issues on the border and all that is harder to represent these people and also these people don't have a lot of money. They never had a lot of money coming into Ellis Island, you know, they might have had $5. And now, same $5. The question I put to you is, do immigration lawyers these days make any money. Are you making any money. Can you get rich being an immigration lawyer, or is it all for love. That's a good question I'm going to choose not to answer, but I, I have to say that I, I can't imagine have had having had a more fulfilling career than the one I've had, helping people, you know, to, to actually achieve their American dreams no matter how hard the process sometimes is I can't imagine any more fulfilling or rewarding no matter how hard it is. I'm making a difference in someone's life oftentimes a difference between life and death, and that it's just a privilege for me. It's a privilege for me to, to meet all my clients from all parts of the world. So many interesting places and their cultures are fascinating I learn and gain so much from them, and they're making the country so much better in a palpable way and I'm so proud of them and I feel so lucky that they're my clients, you know, most of my clients I just absolutely love, and, and I want the world to see how immigrant by immigrant and person by person. These people are making our country great. And I, for one, couldn't be more proud of that. Well, we couldn't be more proud of you. What you are doing is national service. Thank you. So, can you summarize and, and thanks Susan and pose the show. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. So, I had to recommend everybody read journey from zero here. You just read these stories. You'll be proud to be American. And you feel pain and suffering. And may you also enjoy and celebrate with the immigrant. I'm a immigrant. And may I quote Senator Obama. And when I read my review of Susan Bocca, I am. And anyone out there who still saw that America is a place for all the things upon. Who still wonder if the dream of our founders is live our time. Who still question whether America is a nation of immigrants. Susan Collins book. From there to here. If you will answer. I want to thank you so so again and feel for all you wonderful work. And for the help of the immigrant. For all the work working with the ACLU and the car and all these charities. And you are on my role model. I know it's very hard to be, it's almost impossible to achieve your level. I'm a lawyer and immigrant attorney. And with also immigrant who teach artificial law and immigration law. And I just learned so much from all of you parties. You just valuable advice. And the J you are always my role model. One year. The love and the passion you are. And the love and the passion. And the passion that you are. And the love and the passion that you are. What really, you know, by the journalism and the help. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Susan. Thank you for my great discussion. And a pleasure. Thank you. Same here. Bye.