 Hey, hey everyone, this is Carlos founder and CEO at product school and today. I'm here with very Hoffman Who is the chief product officer at CISU data? Hey, very it Hey Carlos really excited to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to have you on the show I was taking a look at your LinkedIn profile and you are probably the first person I've ever met in my life That has the word product in every single job like you can you are a pure breed product person That's true. Yes, I have been in in product roles pretty much my whole career and Actually was very fortunate Kind of happened into that career and just just have loved it. So yeah, it's been a fun ride So they're gonna be more about that first job like when you were trying to you know break into the workplace I how did you actually become a product manager from the get-go? Yeah, absolutely. So You know, actually, I will say I had a pretty non-traditional even though I've been in product roles my whole career I had a pretty non-traditional path into Product I think particularly in the Valley we think of the archetype of a product person being someone who probably has a CS degree You know has some training as an engineer. That was not me. I in undergrad I studied history and economics and was very much liberal arts background and I Was born and raised in Minnesota and so the first company I joined was actually a Minnesota based company I moved back there after after undergrad and Joined a company. It was called compelling. It was in the technology space a data infrastructure kind of storage enterprise storage company and had interned there actually in a marketing role and Was very fortunate that one of the leaders at the company in in the marketing department specifically kind of just said to me Hey, you should do product And I honestly didn't even know really what that meant or what product management was and but I love the company I love the pace that was growing. I love being in the technology space and so I said, okay Why don't we give it a try and Candidly my first boss probably did not want to hire me I was not the background that that he was used to hiring So I say all of that to say I was very fortunate that a company was willing to take a you know place a bet on me and I learned a lot of both the technology and how to be a product person on the job and That's something I initially actually I Think was reticent to talk about it was something I probably hid a lot in kind of earlier days of my career was I Wanted to come across as you know, I'm your typical You know technical background and almost hid that part of my path into product, but it's something I now feel really strongly about talking more openly about because I think I Think it's important that we kind of open our minds to there's different paths into a product especially as you know kind of amplifying and extending the Different representations of different types of people particularly in technology I think one way to do that is to be open to different paths and so anyway, it's something I like to share now that I Think it's important part of the dialogue is hey I had a non-traditional path and the company was willing to take a bet on me And I kind of fell in love with the role and and have never looked back since I Love it and I agree with you. It's important. It's a lot of people who are looking up to Others like you or chief product officers who don't have your traditional engineering degree and I made it and they keep building And they I make it learning and and that's what I want to explore with you in this conversation It's like few years after your your first job and fewer jobs you you could spend four years at Google as a head of product there So tell me more about about that experience because obviously Google is a huge company So when we say you are the head of product, it's not like you're the head of Google, right? You were owning the Google hire product. That's right Yeah, so I'll maybe start with just a little bit of contacts on my path into Google So that was actually through an acquisition So I was at a company that I joined very early stage company called bebop We're about nine people when I joined and we got acquired in 2015 and so at that time You know, we we were it was a really I think an Fortunate setup in that the CEO of bebop which was Diane Green who had co-founded and was the CEO of VMware She actually came in to lead all of cloud for Google And so we were very fortunate in that I think bebop got kind of got to continue to operate as almost a little startup inside of the cloud organization and inside of Google and And that was kind of the context in which I got to Continue to lead and and we eventually launched Google hire as a recruiting product And then you know eventually took on a couple other products in the recruiting space as well And it was it's a very fun interesting experience to be able to kind of have To work on as you said a product that is In some ways you're kind of trying to operate as your own little company or startup Inside of this behemoth that obviously has so much going on. I think it really opened my eyes to You know how I guess a couple things one I would say how to think about When you have a platform like Google and I don't mean a technical platform I mean a Platform with the kind of brand and reach and and customer base that a company like Google has It actually ended up really Influencing our product strategy and that was surprising to me to actually say the way we think about building this product And the way we think about bringing it to market is actually really different Even though we still think of ourselves as this little startup. We can actually leverage the reach that Google has But then there's also things that probably not surprisingly can feel like they're slowing you down a little bit and a lot more, you know Whether I have alignment building but also just understanding where do we fit in this broader ecosystem of offerings and And Honestly where you fit can change a lot more rapidly when you're talking about a company at Google scale because they're placing a lot of different bets and You know those bets and strategic directions can evolve Quickly as they should and so Anyway, it was a very interesting experience and I think opened my eyes to Even when you think you're operating as hey, this is just our little product our little domain inside of this broader company The context of being in at a place like Google does really change how you think about product strategy. I Mean I always Admire product product teams at Google. I think they're actually one of the pioneers and product management training because when they created this first APM program That was really unique and in a way when we created our own product school The idea was to democratize the type of access for for people who don't work at Google So, you know deep respect for that and I can imagine that for someone who's a builder who's being a startup Who's not acquired by a larger company, you know You that mindset that you are that you acquired can be applied so many different contexts, right? You can always decide to build a larger organization. You can decide to build by yourself now. You are back at start the world So please tell me tell me more about your current company and what your role as a chief product officer there. Yeah, absolutely so So chief product officer at CSU data we I've been there for about a year and a half coming up on two years in January and Currently leading our product management Design and actually have post sales team right now as well And so that's something that I think is an example of you know traditionally you wouldn't think of post sales or maybe even in some cases design kind of being part of the product organization Particularly at a company that's gonna be at Google scale, but it's an example of something where Because at an earlier stage company, we you know, we spend some time looking at what makes sense for Where we are and what we're doing today and one of the Things that I that got me really excited about joining CSU and happy to get into this a bit more later if we have time is You know, it's a space data and data and analytics and kind of decision-making and how we as as Professionals how we as businesses actually leverage the data we have to make Really more informed decisions. That's really what we're in the business of doing at CSU and that's where we see a big opportunity to to kind of do a fundamental rewrite of how Companies actually extract some of the insights and answers they need to make better decisions with data and I got really excited about that because those are the types of problems at the end of the day decision-making is a Multi-user multi-step Workflow, right? It's not just about the technology to go do the analysis. It's actually about how do we facilitate? People coming together as humans and making better decisions and I share all that context because I Think that helps underline why having being able to have Product management design and post sales who's interacting day to day with our customer base Why that really made sense for the type of product that we're building to have that very close tie-in and very tight feedback loop with You know people in customer success roles to have really strong partnership between product management and product design where we're taking a very human-centered design thinking approach to how we Build a product in a space that candidly is very crowded And I like to say like the world doesn't need another analytics tool, right? It would that's not what we're trying to build we're trying to really change and facilitate better decision-making Which I think requires coming with a deep deep deep understanding of How businesses are making decisions today what works about that what doesn't it's not just looking at Hey, we're in this little box of analytics tools, but it's a whole workflow and I share all of that like I said to say I think Being at an earlier stage company allows you to do to be a bit more Creative or flexible about how you structure an organization and how you think about Product and how product works with other functions in that organization To facilitate the type of you know customer centricity or user centricity that I think it's going to be critical to our success at CSU You know, I mean there are a few things there that I got my attention one is you said that post says reporting to you. Yes That's cool. And I'm very unique. I've seen very different configurations and there's no right or wrong answer Which I think it's a beautiful thing in product There me more about About that like how do you come up to the decision to kind of have that team part of the product team? Yeah, absolutely. So this is where This is where again it was it was not that way initially when when I started and it was a decision that we made Collaborative collaboratively as a leadership team because there was so much Knowledge and and just valuable insight that we knew our post sales team was Gathering from how they were actually interacting and working with We we our target customer is kind of a mid-market to larger enterprise customer. And so you've actually got people who are participating in some of that like onboarding and implementation and and training and You know, we knew that we we really wanted to capture the Insights and learnings from those interactions and have them feed into an influence how we thought about product strategy and where we invested and You know, there's a lot of ways to accomplish that without making org changes, but You know, when we kind of really sat down and looked at it. We we felt like Why not? I mean to your point it's it's it is non-traditional It's a bit of a different approach, but it it it made sense for what we wanted to achieve which was honestly that kind of continuous feedback loop and also post sales being very close to What we were building on the product side, right? Because we're an early-stage product and so if they really understand and know what's coming in the roadmap they're better able to kind of bridge some of that value to customers and You know, we we made that change several months back and have really gotten a lot of benefit of that tighter feedback loop And I think it also sends a very powerful message Internally, but also to your customers about how much product cares about The entire lifetime of the user not so much about closing the deal and then moving on to the next shiny object Exactly. Exactly. And that's actually, you know, big shift for me has been Actually spending a lot of time on what is that full customer life cycle journey? And how do we think about Both from a post sales managing that journey, but also Tying that into different product metrics and engagement metrics that we're looking at at different stages. So Absolutely, I think it's a It's a nice way to solidify. It's the full journey. It's not just closing them up front So this this major trend, um, some people call it product-led growth, which I think aligns nicely with What you were saying is really putting the product at the center of the entire organization and the user journey Yes, it's important that product has to represent your company and there are a lot of users that need to see a little bit of the product before they Commit, but it's also important to to invest in product for the users who are part of this journey and make sure they are Engaged so they can also extend their their agreements with you in a probably more less heavy lifting way Yeah Yeah, absolutely. And I think actually I'm glad you brought up product-led growth because it is it's like the buzzword of of our of our uh, this moment in time and I think it's something that is easy to equate or interpret as product-led growth just means free trials or you know Some kind of Purchasing flow, right that that allows someone to have some sort of like demo of free trial experience and I think of it differently. I think of it as product-led growth is really just a recognition and a decision to say the product experience is a key driver of how we both acquire and expand Usage because right those are the two ways you grow you acquire new customers and you Uh get more usage or more value to the to the customers you already have or to the to the users you already have And really all product-led growth means is we are betting on and investing in the product experience as a key lever for that growth in contrast to or maybe like in addition to Other more traditional methods which might be a sales team which might be you know different marketing campaigns and things like that and so To me it's so much more than a trial experience, right? It's truly the entire product experience at every moment depending on where that customer is in in their life cycle and their journey with your product is How are they experiencing it in a way where they're seeing increasing value and that is causing them to say I want to grow my usage. I want to grow my investment in this product Yeah, and I think a part of it also is seeing more chief product officers Because it might sound obvious in in some context, but it is not back in the day There will be a lot of the the most senior product person at the organization would report to a cmo or to a cto And now seeing that the cpo is there and that the ceo actually cares And in some cases come from a product background It really elevates the the role and the influence that we have on overall business So I'm curious to know about your own day to day because now you're not just alone building So how what is how is your role your day to day different than your your teams day to day? Yeah, absolutely. Um Well, I think the the I'd probably bucket my my day to day into Maybe three categories, right? And and then I'll try to answer the second part of your question Which is how does that differ than than the rest of the team? Um, so look, I think the the most important thing That we do as as product leaders, um, or or cpo's is going to be Really Defining and aligning the company on Really like our strategy, right? And and that's where I think that you're we're recognizing the Elevated role that product plays in the company's strategy And you know to do that I think I'm spending and it sounds Silly and obvious, right? It's um, but I think there's three things that that breaks down into there's what problem are we solving? Who are we solving it for? and how are we solving it And the what problem are we solving is where I'm spending a you know a ton of time Just really understanding what what are these untapped? Or un unaddressed needs that that customers have where we have an opportunity Who are we solving it for is all about who we're focusing on who we're targeting at that time? and then how is We better have a differentiated point of view on and how we're going to do it and I think those three things And I want to underline too it's not just about answering them at a point in time If you know it's kind of as soon as you think you've answered those questions You probably need to revisit again and say like do we still have the right answers, right? and And are we aligned and clear as an organization on our answers to those questions? And so It's not it's not a one-time Exercise that is truly where I am spending and of course there's a bunch of the like Executional meetings and things like that, but When I look at my calendar and kind of where my mind share is going it better be 80 plus percent to What problem we're solving who we're solving it for and how we're solving it? and I think that the delta to get to your question of how is that different than when You're you know, just kind of an icy or or owning a piece of the product it's it's Maybe different mostly just at the granularity at which you're looking at that right because that what I just described is what You know in you know individual product leads in a certain area are doing for their area And it really is just a question maybe of both time horizon and scope at which you're answering those questions I'm trying to think a couple years out. I'm trying to think across the entire Company or even if you know the entire product or if we have multiple product lines whereas individual pms are trying to think more at the Uh, whatever scope it is that they're that they're owning Yeah, and I like that observation because there's a lot of uh pms or mid-level pms in the audience Might be thinking well, maybe strategy is just for the vps and cps and and I like what you said about Well, this triangle of what we are what probably are we solving what we're solving it for and and how It kind of apply to every single level like maybe your scope is smaller But everyone should be thinking strategically around like the big problems. We're trying to solve Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's actually the the Maybe I think when you start to recognize That that is actually your charter as A product manager is actually owning defining setting aligning the strategy For whatever scope it is that you own that is when you shift from being a product manager where you're just managing tasks to a product leader Uh, and that I think is that is regardless of title, right? That is totally can be done By individual pms for the area that they own Love that regardless of title I think leaders lead and usually people who get promoted have been leading before that official promotion. Exactly. Exactly So how do you go about building a successful product team? You mentioned your own background is not a technical background So when you have now the chance to build a team to hire What are what are your your main like ways to do it? Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I think first and foremost, I would say Spending time on really saying for the stage we're at or for the role that I'm hiring or for the makeup of the team right now What what am I optimizing for in each hire? And I will say one trend or pattern that has been really important to me in the context of startups Is finding people who and I like to say not they don't just know how to navigate ambiguity, but they thrive In ambiguity. They are energized by it, right? You can the the pms who do really well in kind of startup or high growth environments Are people who when you throw them a big ambiguous open-ended problem? they're like I love it because I get to figure out what this means where I take it how I do it and Look, there are some people who want to be more in they like Give me a space and let me optimize within This space and that's okay But those people are not going to feel energized in a startup environment And so I think you know one of the things I'm looking for and thinking about what I'm hiring is This needs to be mutual fit on both sides, right? I don't want to force someone to do something that they don't enjoy doing and you know, especially at early stage the company needs product thinkers who who To dig in and are you know love that ambiguity and that complexity and the opportunity to say I'm going to set a direction here Because there is no defined direction um, so that's one thing uh, and then I think the the second thing that I really look for is problem-first mentality uh, you know I think Where I see most Projects or or products go off the rails is when we didn't spend enough time on really understanding the problem we were solving and why it was important to solve for the for the segment that that we chose and so I think there's ways to to test for that to to really look at you know I actually will do intentionally some really open-ended prompts or discussions in interview processes and say Just pitch a product idea right because that starts to test like how do they deal with ambiguity? How do they deal with big open-ended questions like that? Do they really align us on the problem before we start diving into the solution? So again, those are all things I would say particularly in the context of startup environment That I'm thinking about this is what we need and this is so these are the things I'm going to test for and I think the key point here is Getting crisp about what it is you need in the role for the stage you're at or for the makeup of the team and then making sure you're reflecting that in the interview process So one thing you mentioned going back to your positioning as a company for sisu data is that obviously a lot of analytics and data tools in the space Which in a way, I think confirms that the opportunity is huge because there's a lot of them are going public the raising money That's that's great for everybody But you said that you are not you don't want to be yet another solution. So what is that unique position? What is that actual problem that you are solving you mentioned decision making but like can you kind of give me the next level down? Yeah, absolutely. So So yeah, the next I I like to say I will go so far as to say if all we do is build an analytics tool We will have failed world doesn't need it. So, um, so what are we solving? That's a that's I think What has been interesting and where we've spent a lot of time as a as a team and company over the last year and a half Since I joined is Is actually digging into and going and talking to customers Not tell me how you use xyz analytics tool Because that actually then all you're doing is you're just recreating You're saying what's painful about like the space where you've kind of boxed in other tools And instead instead saying, you know talking to analysts for example and saying where are you spending your time? What's painful about it? What are you hoping to accomplish? Right? And one of the observations that came out of that is Yeah, they're creating a bunch of dashboards and like traditional bi analytics tools but What they're really dealing with is a bunch of like ad hoc questions coming up, right a bunch of like reactive questions You know, we see a metric went up. Why did it go up? Why did it go down? And they're jumping into Other tools whether they're writing sequel or writing in a python notebook or trying to cobble it together in a bi tool And then going and summarizing it in slides and summarizing it in a doc So it's an example of where when you kind of take a step back and say Well, tell me what is actually What you're trying to influence, right? You're trying to influence and and react to Decision makers at your company coming with questions about the data and you're trying to elevate Their understanding and their insights into the data in a way that can influence the decisions they're trying to make Well, that's actually spread across a bunch of different tools And what's really painful about it is Actually the way you're trying to answer some of those diagnostic why questions Super manual Right, like they're going in and they're saying like I think maybe it's This particular subgroup like let me go test And so that's an example where like what we're doing with sisu is we're actually saying Flip that on its head and Point sisu at whatever data set you want. Say here's the metric you care about We will look at every dimension in the data set every subgroup the million billions of different combinations of Of dimensions that constitute subgroups in the data pull out the ones that actually add statistically significant impact And that's where you focus so out of these billions of combinations. You've got the five that has statistical significance on metric performance It's a very concrete example, but it's it's where to maybe go in that click layer click lower is There's these why questions these diagnostic questions that are coming up You need to answer them in order to influence a decision in a timely way The tools you're using to do that today Way too manual And so that's that's the problem we need to solve for you. It's not go build another dashboarding tool. Yeah, totally get it and I mean, I've noticed that in general now it's data is not just for the data teams, right? It's not like oh, I need a dashboard data team, please build it for me, right? So what is the role that the product managers are playing now into this entire decision making process? Absolutely, I mean we think of so there's kind of two core personas that we think of we think of that kind of analyzer And whether they have analysts in their title or not It's someone who's very close to the data And then we call it like the kpi owner who could be a product manager Could be a leader in customer success could be a marketing manager But it's that that person who probably they don't necessarily maybe they write sql Maybe they don't but they're not necessarily in the like weeds of the data modeling but they're close to the To the metric they care about their their they need to own the performance of that metric And so I think a big gap actually in so many analytics tools is like they've not been built for collaboration between those two parties They've been built for let's give you access and visibility into your data. That's what a dashboard does It's not built for how do we collaborate and communicate about this and how do we actually Then put together the summary of this and share it out and make a decision So that's when I say the workflow piece of it That is where we're really trying to rethink and say Actually, you know a product manager is a perfect example of a persona we need to serve How they collaborate with that that analyzer In getting to the right decision Well, I I love this interview because I was asking you the questions that I personally care about as a product person You know, and it's really resonating a lot of your answers resonating with me and I know I could go for hours And just need to stop at some point Be respectful of your time, but I want to thank you. It's been awesome to learn from you Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed being here and I hope I hope it comes forward and is clear that I'm so passionate about Just product and product thinking and so really appreciate the opportunity to be here and talk through some of this stuff