 Welcome to the homelab show episode 100 why DB and 12 book word is awesome. And I'm not just joined by Jay, but also Veronica. How you doing, Jay and Veronica. Hello. Hey, this is, this is exciting. The DB and 12, there's a lot of hype about it, but it's definitely worth the hype. There's going to be lots of a lot of fun things that I didn't get a chance to watch Jay's videos and I've only looked a little bit briefly. But he's definitely got some videos covering it, but we want to talk about on a podcast and talk about how exciting it is, but we want to get to a little bit of feedback because it's been a couple weeks since we were here between travels and scheduling conflicts and we're happy to be back we're happy to be live. We're happy to see there's a lot of people watching this live right now. But the feedback first question was the IDS and IPS so intrusion detection systems and intrusion prevention systems which often are kind of the same just a matter of how you have them configured and will you covered as a topic on the show. I think the answer to that is yes, I think this is something that it's going to be different than what I may use in the enterprise, but it's definitely something to understand how these systems work so it's amazing thing to run in your home lab. I've definitely used oh second to past wazoo a little bit. What about you Jay or Veronica. Have you used either or different or have recommendations on those tools and which ones we should probably do a podcast about. I've, sorry, I've used suricada and I actually really like suricada. Yeah, I've used the the built in stuff into unify and I feel like I don't get quite as as good of a response from it it's it's more challenging to use so I tend to like suricada it's one thing they've got. Yeah and suricada is actually what's under the hood in the unify platform and if you use it for example though in the PF sense platform, you get a more hands on approach to it because it gives you all the it doesn't just put a pretty UI on it actually gives you the raw details on there. That's what I'm after. Yeah, let's you turn all the knobs and set your own threat and tell fees and the first thing first thing people will do and I recommend doing this because it's a learning experience you'll turn on monitor everything and then you'll regret it. You either you'll panic thinking you're under a tech thing you'll start learning really what false positives are but it kind of teaches you how to be a security engineer, and you understand what people are looking at so I think it's a fun topic will definitely cover it on the show. Not every alert means you're being hacked I've had to explain that to many people. Yes, that's why I said turn it all on at first you just want to see it come at you. Great learning experience. The next question was basically do you buy a think pad or a system 76 laptop and I think Jay's covered a handful of times system 76 we I love Papa West and their goal was to run Linux on there specifically Papa West and yeah what do you think Jay how was the system 76 laptops. Well I mean I have a bunch of them that tells you anything so. Now to be completely unbiased I'm always unbiased but I want to focus on the pros and the cons of both when I answer this so. When it comes to Lenovo, they're going to have fewer Linux running laptops I don't remember. I know at one point they're shipping fedora Veronica do you remember are they still doing that. I feel like they're still doing fedora new boom to but I haven't confirmed that recently. So I'm not sure if how support would react because you know how sometimes tech support can be when they are helping you troubleshoot something they find Papa West is to the fedora or whatever it was. So, I think system 76 is going to be more open to trying other distros because they're going to get a lot of people that are running Debbie and they ship a boom to as well it's not just Papa West but you could have like someone running arch. And they even go as far as to put some of their stuff in the a you are like system 76 themselves to support people so they don't seem to care if you're running something else and they'll they'll even give you windows drivers if it ends up going that direction. But you call into Lenovo I'm just not sure how they'd react if it's something different now another thing I also want to stress is that system 76 doesn't have accident coverage if that matters to you like. Lenovo's business support they can actually go to you and you know fix your computer where you are so I've seen people with broken screens get their screen replaced right there on site so. I feel like if you are spending that much money on a computer it'd be great if you had on site coverage I don't think system 76 could ever do that because that would be a regional thing. But at least having an accident coverage thing now if you're not accident prone and you're not a clutch like I am then it doesn't matter if you have accident coverage because you don't. I'm sure you're not planning on dropping your computer so I think like Veronica said it's just you're going to have have more support on system 76 side then Lenovo but the build quality in my opinion is probably about 10% better on Lenovo side as my opinion so I feel like the pros and cons kind of. I don't know it's hard to say it just depends on what's important to you as far as warranty the support if you're right sufficient or not things like that. I've had pretty good experiences with system 76 and support whether it's software or hardware for me the software supports huge knowing that it you know if I'm running Linux on my laptop and I have some kind of driver issue or some update Bork something and I need to fix it. Knowing I have somebody I can reach out to who I've paid so there's that support that to me that's huge. But I will say I've had good experiences with them even on the hardware side maybe not getting me same day or next day service but like telling me what part I need to order from you know big box retailer or whatever so that I can actually do that replacement myself. That's been huge and I've taken advantage of that when I've accidentally dropped something or you know broken a Wi Fi card because I was being silly while trying to open something up you know that that sort of thing. And I won't leave out the new framework laptops that I've been watching from not hands on but just watching not just Linus but other people talk about them. Corey Dockrow recently talked greatly about them and one of his write ups about how easy a lot of things were for swapping motherboards etc etc so that's another one I would throw on the radar list because he's very he runs a bunch you on it and he says he found it to be very Linux compatible. So if you look up Corey Dockrow framework laptops he's got a lot to say about him as well so if you want someone because Linus being an investor in it you may assume that he's biased but I do also think it's a good product so you can find other people maybe at some point. I'll buy what I actually went with Dell and Papa West runs beautifully on it my only reason I chose the Dells at the time I wanted a OLED screen and it wasn't available from system 76 when I ordered and I just was once you've seen an OLED screen. It's a luxury once experienced you can't go back it's it's because of necessity. I agree another thing I'll mention about system 76 that I like is the fact they're a small company and. Yes, the reason why I say this is because or why it matters to me is because they're paying attention more like if you are a Lenovo customer it's not that they don't appreciate your business but it is the fact that you are one of a large number of people so it's really. You're not going to get that one on one attention which is really not something you can expect anyway but I've seen system 76 fix things in firmware because one person mentioned it in Twitter, for example, and you don't have people watching Twitter and Reddit and things like that like system 76 does they're paying attention and it's not like. Some companies or they have a maybe a PR person that's watching like their employees, you know, plural are watching and they just seem to be paying attention so I think that's pretty cool that they believe in it and that they'll fix things that quickly when someone notices a problem they consider it they don't say oh yeah it's you and not me it's like. Tell me more about that they might they might have a opinion in their mind but they're not going to jump to something until they kind of have the evidence they can they, you know, look at it look at it so I think that also could be a benefit. Absolutely. Yep. All right well moving on to the topic of the day. DB and 12 bookworm and why it's awesome so I'm going to let you to take the lead on this I am a observant in this one. I'm excited because I'm a long time Debian fan I still run Debbie and for a lot of my server stuff I have a few a bunch of things on there but even told bring some changes to the map so where do we start with it. How about where we started with it as a kind of prelude I think that'd be fun like like. 99 or 23 years ago 24 years ago. So what about you Veronica when did you first try Debian if you even remember. It's been it was a long time ago I think if I'm remembering correctly my first distro was a wound to like back in 2005, you know long time ago and then I figured out wound to is based on Debian and gave it a try and at the time I was such a new but I couldn't figure it out. And I ended up shelving it until a little bit later. If I'm remembering correctly my first experience with Debbie and was getting it going on power PC on some old like power PC laptop I don't remember if it's an old iMac or something like that and it worked. And it was the only Linux I could get working on it and it was like OK now I'm going to start experimenting with it and see what we can do. I started. So my first distro was red hat 7.1 or 7.2 before well so people might be thinking well that wasn't that long ago actually it was. No the old red hat. The old version red hat the one that you would you could get in a box like a box thick with manuals and everything. I think the year was like 2002 when I first started with Linux and then sometime after that I discovered Ubuntu I think it was the very first release and to be honest I didn't like it. The first release I found was buggy. I would install another desktop environment in addition to gnome and then everything would just you know go south. Literally the second release like six months later they fixed everything in Ubuntu and it was fine so I started using that from that point forward. And then I remember going to work one day and you know I'm still starting out I go to the IT department for something unrelated and I noticed Linux on someone's computer and I asked about it. And he said something to me that is untrue but maybe it was true back then I don't quite remember how Debian changed over the years when I asked what he liked about it. He said that it's a rolling distribution you install once and upgrade forever and that was the first time in my career I have ever heard that being spoken so I've never even. I don't remember when Arch started but I know for sure I at least never heard of Arch back then. And that's something you generally hear about and it's not true Debian's not a rolling release it's it can be semi rolling depending on which branch you go with but maybe it's true back then I don't know but there's something. Novel about the idea that I could just install something and keep you know and maybe what he was referring to as a fact that the upgrades and Debian are so seamless that you could just keep rolling through the releases but. I thought it was great but I just never went away from Ubuntu because I felt like oh that's more work and Ubuntu was like Debian but they kind of just did all that for me and I can get up and running quicker but later on I tried Debian and I loved it but I also was frustrated with it because of all the. Extra things you have to do to get Debian working well that Ubuntu just did for you and that was why I went the Ubuntu direction but as we'll talk later I kind of came back around to the Debian side especially with this new release. Oh this new release is so good. It's one of the best ever. It's so good. I was doing mail server administration on Red Hat but every time we had we had constant dependency problems is which when we get to the opportunity came around 2001 to rebuild the mail server Debian it was and. We know the first time I realized you could just apt install something and all the dependencies would come with it and not have to chase down a bunch of RPM packages and solid capabilities between them. That was and back in those days if you the early Red Hat days there was some debate about where you saved things Debian was pretty strict there is no debate you will put your config files under slash. Yes. You will put them where they belong and that's something that helped me a lot because sometimes the problems I would have we would have a trip wire if you ever remember that I think it might still exist at the time it was an open source project to let you know if someone had touched a file or logged in or any changes. And one of the problems was you're trying to get a configuration but the Red Hat version would save the config somewhere else. So you're playing with that. I change this parameter. Why is it not working. You're like oh it puts one here but then it copies it over here but doesn't use a symbolic link and Debian doesn't allow such nonsense. Yes. Right. Yeah. Once I got over that I was like okay this is this is my new favorite Linux to show and I'm sorry Red Hat you lost me at that. Things have changed in the last 20 years but we're Linux people we have biases from the first this shows we touch. The worst part. So when I switched when I became a cobalt dev and started doing system administration for for cobalt on Linux cobalt almost always requires Red Hat or one of its clones and and it was a real learning curve for me figuring out that there's lots of different places they put things in. So I figured with Debian Debian always felt very strict and very specific and Red Hat I mean Red Hat's got its own things and its own conventions and it's a relearning it's it's not a it's not like a brand new system it's not like suddenly switching for BSD or something but it was it it it definitely was a thing and I always missed that when I'm doing a system administration it's like if I'm on a rail system I'm like oh I wish this was Debian you know I know how to do this on Debian it does feel like Debian's kind of at least for a lot of people the standard I know other people disagree that's you do you. You know another thing I thought I'd bring up to see if you guys remember this. Never used it. So never used it. I remember hearing about it. So when I was on Ubuntu I when I first moved to Ubuntu from Red Hat I kind of missed Red Hat a little bit because that's what I started with so Fedora which you know Red Hat on the desktop became Fedora so I came back to Fedora and check it out. And I just felt like I liked apt better than the you know the package manager on there so apt for RPM came out which is a port of apt for Fedora or Red Hat which you could apt install. It was the weirdest thing ever and it would work it was like completely seamless like whatever you typed in apt it would translate that to the system and do whatever it's supposed to do so I was just running that. Eventually I think apt for RPM went away and I just thought I'd bring that up to see if you guys remember it because it's one of those it was a short life I think but it was an interesting thing to see a package manager that's not meant for a distribution. Be ported over to that distro so people could use it there and I thought that was kind of interesting. I think it shows that we've always had this this idea around package management and trying to create grand unified theories of package management and this is nothing new you know we talk about flat pack and snap and all these new things but like we've been we've been shooting for this for a good a good long while now and and it will probably never hit grand unified theory of Linux and that's okay because I don't know that we need a grand unified theory of Linux I don't think we do I think it's fun even with its different quirks and idiosyncrasies so. Speaking of quirks. I'll just talk about some of the reasons why I haven't been using Debian that have been kind of holding me back. And this isn't a criticism of Debian now. So no one get upset you know this is they fixed all of this so which is going to be something that we talk about but there was this frustration I would always have with Debian that things were harder than they needed to be it wasn't that I didn't know how to do it. I knew how to do all the stuff all I have to do is Google it right down the steps I keep I keep really good notes so got to do something again I know how to do it just go back to my notes. So Wi Fi drivers GPU drivers and all of that have been an issue for a long time so I remember one time I was installing Debian on a think pad that had no Ethernet port it was Wi Fi only I'm pretty sure it was the next one carbon. If I remember correctly, it had a dongle an Ethernet dongle that it came with but I know where it was it couldn't find it. So I'm installing Debian and of course it doesn't have a driver for the Wi Fi card so this net install. So what am I going to do it has no way to net. There's no way to get on the internet. So what I did was I just got a flash drive went over to another computer and I found the package I needed and okay I moved it over there I said hey look in this. The on the flash drive for the thing for the Wi Fi driver didn't work there's a dependency for that Deb so darn it have to go back over to the machine grab this other file this other file. And eventually I just extracted the Deb package found the firmware files for the Wi Fi card and I just copy them over to the appropriate place mid install through a TTY just to get Wi Fi drivers to get the net thing working so I can get it installed and it worked fine. So after that I installed Nvidia work fine but the problem was I felt like I should not have had to do any of that it should have just worked out of the box and the issue and the reason why we keep talking about this is because proprietary hardware is bad because it basically means that the developers of the distribution have no visibility into the code because if someone says my Nvidia card is failing me will go contact Nvidia we can't see the source code we can let them know about the problem. But it's an issue and it's a political issue and Debian being conservative they'll just keep that stuff off the ISO image there's also fears of like, I don't know if it's quite a fear but a possibility of lawsuits or just conflicting licenses there's always been that. So they'd keep the packages off the ISO in my opinion has always been. I understand Linux people we get this we understand why it's a concern it's important to us, but the average user they don't give a crap they want their hardware to work they're not trying to hear about politics. They're not trying to hear about anything does they just want their hardware to work but Debian just made everyone jump through those hoops while Ubuntu based on Debian just took all care of all of that for you so it wasn't like I couldn't do it. It's that I didn't feel like I should have to and no one else should have to deal with this this is not our problem Debian you figure this out you you know bang the drum where we need to bang it but don't punish us is what my mindset was. I think this is where Ubuntu really took the advantage of I simply a checkbox load these proprietary things would you like to know work check the box on install great because it's it was never as obvious how to do that and Debian. The other issue that I ran into. And this is not a Debian specific problem by the way. This is something that I experienced like early on in my Linux career and I look at this and I'm like why is it this way so. I would install Ubuntu and I remember it was the second release ever of Ubuntu and I'm forgetting the name. Was it Horry Hedgehog or Woody Warhog I can't remember which direction they went. But anyway a new version of open office came out at the time. And I asked a Linux person at work OK the new open offices now how do I get that he's like you don't like. What what do you mean like it's out it's like yeah but it's not going to be out until the next Ubuntu release and I'm thinking wait I have to wait an entire release of the operating system just to have the latest word processor that doesn't make sense when those users are able to download it and install it right now Mac users can do the same thing with I think it was out for Mac but anyway. The point is we have software that comes out on a website Linux or excuse me Windows and Mac users can download it install it. And it's fine but we Linux users are strangely OK with the fact that we'll never get the newest version until the entire operating system. Imagine not being able to download the latest version of OBS because you need to upgrade to Windows 12 but that hasn't come out first. What. So there was this whole system that I thought was just really horrible when it comes to software delivery. And I think where it hits Debian is Ubuntu is a six month release cadence Debian is closer to two years. So that's a lot longer of a time to spend with those older pieces of software and nowadays as we'll talk later we in Veronica just mentioned we have flat pack and all these other things that make this largely or actually pretty much not an issue at all because we're separating user apps from system packages which is something that I've been feeling should have been the case since 2002 when I discovered Linux. The. For me the performance of flat pack in Debian has been stellar I've been. You know I like I use pop OS on my main work machine that I do for work still and I don't I don't see that changing anytime soon just right now. But for my editing rig and my video games and you know like the other things that I do like streaming. I'm streaming right now from Debian and it's been absolutely fantastic. It's been flat hub has been stellar for for this particular experience. Now will it continue to be with the political issues around it and you know if if places don't support flat pack the same way and you have to go with a snap. I mean I can see Debian having issues for folks who need something that isn't found in either of those places but you know for a lot of people it's I think it's becoming a recommend for me. It's something and part of that is the installer updates that have just made it so much easier to actually install where I used to describe Debian as harder than arch I think two years ago I said Debian is actually harder than arch. To install because arch has the wiki and you can get every single answer whereas Debian's website was at the time a complete mess of I don't know which ISO I need I don't know what version I need like do I need this for this hardware there's no simple checkbox it's like I almost need a wizard. And it's it that's done now it it it I've thrown this Debian ISO at everything I can every laptop every desktop every virtual machine I've tried breaking things I've tried it all seems to work so. Yeah it's also it's so great and it's so thoughtful like it's creating work in a way but saving work for me because I still notice things so my Ansible config I built something in there that basically it's a system to use service that will update your flat packs automatically every night and that's what it does. Now I didn't get around to running that on my Debian installs yet but then I log into my test machine which I installed nothing on this is just what I record footage on I must have recorded a flat pack I think I did I think I did that when I recorded a flat pack video recently. And then I log in and it says that my flat packs are updated I'm like that's interesting I didn't add my config to this so there must be either something in flat pack that flat pack did to make that automatic or maybe Debian put an interface in there I don't know what it was. But it took care of that for me so now it's like I need to go to my Ansible config and put an exception that if the target is Debian don't even bother you know putting this config over there because it already does that for you and I think that's novel just to have a. You know automatically updating flat packs and before anyone asks yes you can lock flat pack versions to to the current version that's installed if you don't want that so it's easy to work around if that's not what you want. But that's just you know there's all these pleasant surprises that we find in these releases after using them even after a review. Well I think there's a good place to really dive into specifically Debian 12 how much better is the installer where some of the really key features that make it so much better than some of the reminiscing we did of problems. Some of the other ones I installed over net it's I used net install over Wi-Fi so that just that sentence I think it is a game changer and now here's the thing so just so people are aware you were always able to do this there was a non free ISO that they offered but they'd never advertised it and most people didn't know it existed in fact I never knew it existed until somebody in one of my videos commented to let me know that it existed so as an unofficial. Like something like Debian with non free software ISO I don't know how they worded it but when I use that it was fine but now the standard Debian ISO image will have proprietary firmware on there that will be installed if it's found that it's needed when you go to install the distribution which makes. I feel like what this does is it it lowers the barrier of entry for beginners to check out Debian because before you know it's like my friend Bob said that Linux is the best thing ever and runs on everything I tried it and I can't even get Wi-Fi to work Linux sucks I'm back to windows that's usually how it would go but now you know you have that out of box experience where your hardware works which I feel like is just going to make it more popular for Linux users of all kinds you have. Experts answering fewer questions and you have beginners having fewer questions. I just checked out the Debian website for download and this was this was always one of my big criticisms of Debian is. You would have to go to the alternate download site and then it would give you so many different options you got not only the net install but the full install and how do you know which one is the one you want. Then you have Jigdo what is Jigdo do we do we use Jigdo is that a thing you like there's all these different options. I was like a board game made by Milton Bradley honestly yeah you have do you need the CD or the DVD of the stable or testing do you need it and for for folks who've been in this you know you can kind of get a feel for it. But if you haven't been in this this is entirely overwhelming compared with virtually every other distro today and they've really taken a ton of time to just just make that look better. I still think they've got some work to do on the website just in terms of making it you know organized and and friendly for beginners because I think Debian could get there. I think with this release especially they're really getting close to a beginner friendly distro. I don't know if I would say it's perfect yet but it's getting real close and I'm excited about that and because we every distro like ideally most distros ought to be beginner friendly. I don't know if Gen 2 needs to be beginner friendly. But most distros need to be beginner friendly because with the with the proliferation of distros comes those moments like Jay was talking about of confusion with new folks who make they download Debian and think it represents all of Linux not realizing that you'd have a far easier time with Linux Mint or PapOS or Ubuntu and we I would like to see more simplified entry points and I think Debian is just getting so close with this release. I completely agree and then the other issue with in here's the thing we're on episode 100 and we're talking about a distribution that has packages that are 100 years old. But and that's been an issue for a while is that Debian in my opinion feels stale right at release and then continues to be the case and even worse so later. But the flatback thing really helps that out because I mentioned this in the review Debian 12 ships with a version of LibreOffice that the developers of LibreOffice don't want you to use. They literally tell you stop using 7.4 they've had several point releases of 7.5 and they're telling you to move to that it's stable enough now but Debian ships the very version that they don't want you to keep using and that's just something you'll find across the board. Nowadays with this release we have the latest plasma desktop which is awesome we have the second latest gnome so it's newer than most of the time it's just. It just feels stale because your packages would be so old on release day and then would continue to age but flatback if you need something newer. You can go grab it if you'd rather leave everything stable you can do that not update anything but if you have that one piece of software you can go grab it. And it's pretty easy to do and I think LibreOffice is definitely something that no distribution on the planet should ever put in their their repositories. I know that might not be a popular opinion but Microsoft Office continues to develop they continue to add new features and change things. LibreOffice also updates regularly to keep up with those changes so if you're using an older version of LibreOffice or even one that's not old but is locked it's going to get to a point where. You're going to have issues with people running Microsoft Office sending you a document you open it gets corrupted why because. And many people think it's because LibreOffice compatibility most of the time it's because your distributions given you an older version I feel like flatback should be the only way to get. LibreOffice flatback snap maybe put them in all of those on app image even but at least keep it out of the repositories but. Again I think the point here is that flatback makes this largely not an issue at all so even the classic. Jurassic package dates of you know the Debian packages is just not even something that's going to be a problem at all either so without that problem it's like. I'm running out of things to complain about. Absolutely. I will say with Debian you know I'm working on some testing before I upgrade some of my Debian 11. Environments to Debian 12. One of the reasons I was always hesitant with Debian in like web servers like PHP specifically is that it was at the time you know challenging to like convince a company to install the non official repo for like the most recent PHP. Right and getting this configured and set up was really challenging. I'm interested to see how Debian 12 compares because I have a sneaking suspicion at release day it's better than Debian 11 was at release day for for that particular use right now I don't have anybody who's actively asking me to deploy a Debian 12 on a web server but. You know that could change in a week who knows so I'm super excited to see exactly how that's going to end up working. You can you can do goofy things like pinning and development stuff but when you're trying to convince the C suite that that's worth the investment compared with something like Ubuntu which makes that simpler. It's been kind of challenging. I feel like Debian 12 isn't going to do a whole lot to fix that because one mindset of people will have is just put it all in a container that's not always the answer that's not always going to work it could work but not always. I feel like surprisingly rel has potentially the best solution to this and I can't remember what they call it but that you could literally choose the version of PHP that the repositories will give you so you can move it to a specific version right in the repository config. I have a whole feature for this and I don't use rel every day so I can't remember what it's called but I feel like if Debian just maybe in the next release did that then that would probably solve it because you could just oh I want PHP whatever the version is I'll just. Put whatever the config is for that and I have that version that's what I have but you'll probably still run into you know that version is too high for this other application which is why I feel like a lot of these things should be taken out of the repositories and put separate but I think with. What Debian has achieved they've done so here's the thing Debian has achieved more in the release of Debian 12 by itself and they have in the entire distributions history okay yeah. I'm talking specifically about user being user friendly obviously over the 30 years I mean they've done all kinds of things to revolutionize you know Linux in general but when it comes to you know making it easier for the user they've done more in this one release than the entire history of the entire distribution. Absolutely I completely agree. I mean defective they're shipping with you said second to the latest gnome and then the latest plasma desktop that's a big step forward because that's not something I would have expected out of the W distributions. And I think it was just barely the newer version of gnome I think was just barely over the date I think it was kind of close enough where people were like thinking it could happen. Plasma was already out at the time so I think that that's great now what I'll shift gears and talk about myself about myself and I think Veronica you have a lot of thoughts on this too because we've chatted about this. The bombshell thing I dropped at the end of the review where I said I'm switching to it and I'm going to have a dedicated video about this and. And maybe I figured about I talked about some of the reasons why I made that decision and that kind of help people understand my mindset. Now the thing is I'm not a fan of drama. You know it is especially challenging in Linux sometimes because I see someone asking a question in a Linux forum and some of them and they'll just get like assaulted almost it's like you know there's some of this this going on and there's just drama and I just don't like drama now. When it comes to covering Linux you're always going to have the drama there's no way to get out of it because you have to be in it to report on it you have to be in it to know about it to know what's going on and how it's going so I'm still in with the drama but at the same time it's. When I'm with my own systems and I want to manage my own stuff. You know there comes a time where OK my work day is over and I just want to you know play around or update some things and just have some fun with my own system. And then I look up things and I'm still dealing with drama because of the snap package thing and canonical is doing this canonical is doing that and I don't know what they're going to do. Why I kind of do know because I know some things that you know the public doesn't know but still I think most of it has come out now. There's just all this excuse me in fighting about Debian or not Debian but Ubuntu and I just get tired of it like I cover it all day long. And at night I'm going to also continue to deal with it. No I think it just comes a point where I just want the drama to be outside. I just want the thing that is quiet it works and you know I have to deal with all of that but the other thing is without knowing what canonical is going to do next. They're a company and I'm not saying anything they're doing is wrong because it's their distribution companies exist to make money. That's why they exist. So I'm not saying you know Ubuntu is doing something wrong here because canonical is a company they're going to do company things. I also feel that if people use Ubuntu they choose to use Ubuntu. They've chosen to use a distribution backed by a company and I feel like they forfeit the right to complain because they chose to use the thing that everyone knows is made by a company. But Debian is like Ubuntu without the company is kind of how the best to describe it as a community project. I was about to say that. Yep so that's a great thing too but as a business like I don't want to have a situation where oh gosh canonical just crossed the line. Now I definitely have to switch all of my systems over at the last minute but it's like you know that day is going to come eventually I'm just going to switch it now. And I switched all of the servers over not all of them the public facing servers are still on Ubuntu I haven't decided that I'm going to convert those now or just let them age out and then move to Debian later. But that's kind of where I'm at with all of this but when it comes to the book you know I'm still going to support the book I still might write a new edition I'm not going to stop covering Ubuntu it exists it's just the difference is what I'm running internally. But I'm always going to have Ubuntu installations because I have to keep up on what they're doing I have to do the tutorials and the reviews and keep you guys updated and I can only do that if I'm using it but when it comes to my core systems it's like OK those are Debian that's just going to be stable and solid and just not move for a while. So nothing against canonical I do feel like the whole push for Snap is it is anti community in my opinion but yes. And that's the other reason too is I feel like there's a conflict of interest with the channel I I'm not learning Ubuntu to TV and learn Linux TV Linux you know Linux the thing not just Ubuntu. So if Ubuntu is doing something that I feel like is toxic towards the community by forcefully making Snap not Snap on account of its own self being great. It's not working it's not getting traction against Flatback so they're forcing it so it's like excuse me Michigan allergies so the fact is I just get I get tired of that honestly it just gets it just gets old and not Debian old I mean like tedious old. Yeah I brought this up in my great log tutorial and it's one of the challenges that people I didn't know people were having because I was building it on Debian. But if you go through and you install a bunch of server and you apt get install Docker it's fine. But if you choose when you're building your Ubuntu server and check the box like yeah like Docker little menu there come up on the installer it's going to install things in Snap and that comes with a new set of challenges the way you manage Docker. And of course the errors are you don't have permission to do this so it doesn't immediately tell the user why they don't have permissions and it's because it's the way you have to add certain parameters to snap. So it kind of creates some different challenges and that's one of the problems I've run into more recently with it like you are making a kind of a core change that this tutorial should work on really any flavor of Linux. But you've decided to throw a little monkey wrench in there and with your installer without saying hey we're selling the snap version of it and that's those little challenges sometimes as you said you are not necessarily in line with the community. Right and the last thing I'll say about this because you got to get Veronica's thoughts on this too because I think she kind of came to the same conclusion as I did separately which is kind of interesting. The thing that I think is surprising to me is canonical doesn't know this I think everybody in the Linux community knows this which is surprising that canonical doesn't know what I'm referring to is that first impressions in Linux are eternal. You know you don't release something to you know public scrutiny unless it is ready for that so I feel like if they had held snap back and then kept making it great and fixed everything before it became the default. Then everyone's opinion would probably be more positive than it is now and it probably would even succeed but you know they put it out with flat or excuse me Firefox you know taking like 10 seconds to load which has been fixed that's been fixed it's not a problem now but they had already had a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths because of the problems with it and then that's another problem. They pretty much guaranteed that snap will never succeed it will never succeed and I'm not saying that I want canonical to fail I don't want anyone to fail. I want things to succeed I want it to be great for everybody but by deciding to put it out there you know and it's unfinished state. They have permanently soured the opinion the only way that they could make it successful now is to change the name you know the same product but fix it. Change the name and then make people might accept it but if it's called snap it's just not going to be successful and they will have to switch to flatback at some point in the future it could be five years from now. It could be you know the next release it won't be the next release but at some point they're going to realize that this uphill battle that they caused themselves is just a never ending hill they have to climb. I mean unity took off. Well that's a joke yeah. I mean you say that eventually they took it out right. You know companies make company decisions and companies make company decisions because because they're they're they're after something that isn't community you know like that's that that is what it is and I'm not saying I think that that's a bad thing it's just a thing it's it's part of how this works you know like I'm not saying I use Debbie and because it's a community thing because. While that definitely weighs into my kind of thought process around it. I also know that there's a lot of large organizations supporting this project and supporting Linux in general like you know you're it would be naive to suggest that Linux is free of corporate drama it's definitely not and it's naive to say that Debbie and packaging is free from drama because it's not there's there's stuff going on there and and. You know all of these different areas have their their little quirks. My concern about Ubuntu and snap is one of ground swell where we're seeing for the first time that at least I remember a general consensus forming. Around flat pack and flat hubs specifically and that's beautiful and Ubuntu is getting in the way of it and that just feels nasty now I will confess I actually think snap is pretty cool technology under the hood and I do think there's some neat stuff going on there. Particularly around server application development and you know like like issues like I you know I just recently installed for a customer. We can a Kanban board and like with a snap it's it's incredibly slick and it works really well and they're having no issues with it and price saved me hours of development or deployment time. Yeah it was fantastic and you know like when it works it works. I have concerns about who's supporting it and who's managing it and whether that's a community project or corporate project. Particularly since I have a sneaking suspicion canonical will not continue to be a independent company forever you know at their size I'm just I'm waiting for that Microsoft canonical. Everyone is everyone's waiting to take bets against you on that one. Yeah exactly and and that's that's my concern right now is that I you know like I like snap as a as a project and I like it fine it's it is what it is and I don't I don't hate it or anything like that you know like people get so amped up about it and I get the logic behind the emotion because we're seeing ground swell for the first time and it's like we could do that. And actually like especially with Steam Deck and with all these places supporting flat pack and the move toward immutability and how that could be a really good and powerful tool and do boon too is kind of in the way horrible. Something you reminded me of that I should probably mention too because I don't think this got a lot of traction and this is something I'm going to cover in a video I had to screenshot these pages on Canonicals website or some of them were there and some of them were in blogs where Mark Shuttleworth was quoted because you brought up the whole unity thing and that going away and this is kind of where. My next point is where my problem is you have Canonicals saying one thing and doing another okay and that to me if you're a company that's fine companies do company things but companies need to be held to the word also that's kind of like the the honor system here if a company does one thing or says one thing it does another. That's bad and there are several times where this happened where I was using Ubuntu gnome before gnome was the default desktop environment again they were currently unity they had a an officially recognized flavor called Ubuntu gnome and it gave you a vanilla gnome it nothing you know added to it exactly gnome as gnomes developers intended. Now when they decided to drop unity that essentially meant no Ubuntu gnome became the you know main version and they even dropped that version and then Mark Shuttleworth said that he wants to focus on and I'll have the exact quote in my video but he wants to focus on giving people the software as the developers intended giving people gnome as gnome intended that's what he said that he said that that's what they're going to do meaning you know gnome like fedora does gnome where it's known as the developers intended. That's what he wanted first release of gnome based Ubuntu comes out they made it look like unity you know custom theme with the panel on the left they completely changed everything so it absolutely was not gnome as gnome intended so that wasn't true and it wasn't even like a year later they went back on and it was like months later when the next release came out it was completely opposite of what he said but then when he also talked about you know unity not taking off or gathering steam. He said what Ubuntu wants to do is let the industry decide what's successful he said that the software will be judged on its merits and we think that that's what how a software should succeed is the community has chosen to elevate that what did he do they go against the community they go they do snap they do their own thing so again he's going against what he said they would do the other more recent thing was. You know Ubuntu flavor leads were free to include whatever software they want and it says it on the website still to this day and I've screen shot of it because I know they'll take it down. And you know because they're basically saying if a person wants to release Ubuntu with a different set of packages they're allowed to do that. And here what do they do they told all the flavor leads that they're not allowed to use flat pack and that goes against the verbiage that's on this website right now so even as a company and I'm a business I'm having trouble trusting them and if I'm using canonical software they're essentially a partner maybe not officially but I'm using their software then I'm not going to use something that the company constantly says one thing and then does something else I don't think that's going to build trust and trust is important. Companies are going to do company things. Exactly right and sometimes that company thing is aligned sometime it's not and he just kind of have to not listen to what they say but watch what they do. Absolutely how did you arrive at Debian 12 and what are you using now. I'm actually not using Debian 12 anymore. I've been using Debian 12 in the form of Debian testing for probably two months now and I love it like it's great it's fantastic. I've been using it for my editing rig as well as for gaming and streaming this this this thing we're doing right now and it's pretty great it's it's honestly stellar. I decided to give it a try mainly because what's happening with PopOS and they're going to be basically reengineering how PopOS works which is cool and I'm excited about it like I think it's a good thing when it comes to my editing rig. I don't necessarily want to be going in that direction yet. You know I'm going to want to give it a try on my other machines and see how it's working and you know I don't necessarily want the channels video cadence to suffer for that because there's already so much in the way of videos I don't want this to be in the way as well. Now I will say last night I decided I only live once and I upgraded to SID and so now now you're seeing me live from SID this is a SID machine now and it's it's wonderful. Mainly my reasons for that are experimentation right now at this particular stage in in Debian's development but also there were some packages I wanted to try and it was just easier if I just upgrade the whole thing to SID right now so Will I stay here forever? I don't know I'm probably going to be trying I'll give the I know I'll give PopOS the new PopOS once it comes out an honest and sincere try and if I love it and it's great I might switch to that. Right now I'm trying to get sway going on this thing and learning a window manager. Oh my goodness. So it's not fun when you when you get there because I was I've been an open box user for so long it's still my favorite but I guess my problem with it is that it. You know it's not I don't know if it's abandoned because it's like what all do you need to change in it right it's tried and true and it's been you know it works but it doesn't you know we've had high DPI displays take over and it's just not there. Open box is tough. Yeah I think sway is going to be more likely to work well and I'm also trying that too so it's kind of funny you were you mentioned that I'm like I've been playing with that too I've been trying to get a video out for that for like a freaking year. But I swear I'm going to be able to get it done now eventually but I'm giving it an honest try again because I like it it's just every time I try it I get sidetracked but so far sways been awesome. Yep I've got to figure if I can figure out how to configure streaming and so I've been my rig that I'm using right now is actually it's Katie I switch back to Katie plasma but it's plasma with Wayland and everything's working. It's all Debian plasma Wayland 5.27 it's all it's working everything it's it's all good. Lots of flat packs it's fantastic switching to sway it for whatever reason I can't figure out any streaming any screen sharing any capture I'm still in the middle of building that out. I think OBS should work because I'm pretty sure they support Wayland now if I'm not mistaken. They do I'm using it right now but but not in sway for whatever reason so I think there's got to be something I'm missing. And I'll get there it'll it'll I'll figure it out eventually or I won't and you know that'll be a learning curve but I think there's so many sway fans I think you've pretty much guaranteed that someone's going to write in with a config. Oh yeah no that's why I'm talking about it if you or someone you know has a good sway config please write to me. Me too. I'm at vkc.sh is my email please. And also also to me as well just disclaimer I'm making a video so I'm not going to lie you know whatever you send me cannon will be used in said video but if you have some figs or whatever if you send it to Veronica say hey Jake can have this to have to have your permission first and then maybe I'll also check it out. Nope I got and I have to figure out a way to publish my dot files because I've been avoiding doing it for a good long while. Because so much of it like it's peppered with comments about people and I probably shouldn't share that but I'm trying to separate that I should probably talk to you about offline. It's going to be fun. Eventually you'll be able to get dot files from me and that that'll be helpful because I've been using so many terminal application like I do my email in the terminal it's great it's fantastic. Highly recommend it. What I'm using for that. I use mutt in the terminal. Yes. I use I use mutt and proton mail and it works. It's fine. It's all good. It's it's just fine. You need to do a video a month. I haven't used mutt in a long time. Oh I'm planning a whole video on mutt. I watch most YouTube from MPV and subscribe using NewsBoat and it's it's just fantastic. It's like I barely have to touch my mouse. It's great. Hmm. These are great topics. I think some config file sharing and collaboration. That would be fun. I feel like there should be like a such thing and maybe there is going to be now a dot file party where you just get like a bunch of people together that have like, you know, customizations that meet the VIM Tmux whatever it is like any software and just Oh, that's going to be fun. Other people. Oh, I want that config. I want that config and then everyone just borrows this borrows that from other people. I used to do that at work all the time. I think. Oh, that's great. That would be a blast. We got to talk offline about that. I got ideas for you. Yeah. I think we need a whole video of how Veronica uses the Internet. Oh, geez. Right now I'm trying to get a pick 20 on the Internet. That's going to be my, my, my next big retro getting on the Internet. I got, I just I'm setting up a serial modem. I'm building my own thing. It's all kinds of fun. Yeah. If you make me something for my Commodore 64, I don't care if it's a pie or whatever it is to load games. I will pay you just let me know. I'll, we'll talk offline. I've got, I got options for you. I've got options for you. Yeah. I have some retro goals as well. So I mean, I'm, I'm excited. I'm the retro whisper now apparently. Yep. I am like literally in a room with like there's my 64. There's my mega 1200. There's my 500. There's my thick 20. Down here's my other thick. It's what I do for fun. What can I say? Absolutely. It's a great hobby. And maybe I'll start developing games on a Commodore 64. That might be, that might be fun too. I would love that. That'd be a blast. That's so somebody asked in one of my subscribers from Kofi, I think asked in the comments what my favorite language is. If it's not cobalt and cobalt is not my favorite language. It's language. I know it's what I do. It's not necessarily what I enjoy. But if I had to pick a favorite language personally, it's probably basic. It's like, we got to go way back because it was, it was my first. And I still think in basic, basic is pretty, pretty much my thing. If I'm picking a favorite language in the universe today, I love Python because I love teaching Python. I love teaching Python. I used to do trainings like enterprise trainings where I would teach people how to write Python scripts. And it was one of my favorite jobs I've ever had. It was a blast because Python, people can grab it so quickly. And they just, they can learn and it's, you see that spark. And then, you know, I find out two years later, they got a job in IT later on. And it's like, I can help with that. That's fantastic. So Python. I love what Python does for people. Should everybody write in Python? I don't know. But Python's a great language as a language to learn. I would recommend Pygame for all the beginners. Yeah. There's a book. I don't remember the title off the top of my head, but something like creating arcade games in Python or something. I think it has a cartoon snake on the cover. But there's, there's, in my opinion, no fun, no better or more fun way to learn programming than a game development book, Pygame. It's very entry level. Because I feel like in some ways understanding programming is easier with game development because, you know, you have your development book is like, here's how, here's how you write a mortgage calculator. Then you have to stay awake through the whole thing. And then a game design book is like, here's how you create a pong clone. Okay. Now that's more exciting. And I'm going to focus on that more and learn it quicker. So that's a recommendation to learn. Debian is not Debian. I'm going to have Debian on the brain. Yes. Python library Pygame. Yes. Which you can do on Debian. Yeah. So, All right. I think we've, I think we've covered all of this as much as we have time for at least. Yep. I think so. All right. This is a blast. Thank you so much for inviting me. I really appreciate it. This is a lot of fun. Yeah. And I didn't see someone bring up Pascal. I learned Turbo Pascal after basic. So that's a, it's been a while. I should, I'm going to learn some new languages. That's on my to-do list, like to try to be proficient at one of them. So not just kind of dabble in them. All right. Well, thanks everyone for joining. Thanks everyone for the feedback and the engagement interaction. And thanks for joining me and Jay. We'll definitely have you on again. Yeah. Subscribe to Veronica Explains because I know she's going to do this whole, I mean, you already have one about getting your Commodore 64 online. So I know there's going to be some more content around some of the other classic stuff. And of course you're going to have the dot file. So I will leave links to that in the description where you can find her channel. Not hard to find though. Veronica Explains is pretty easy to find on the website. And feedback at the homelab.show. We love hearing from you. Love hearing the feedback and tell us what you think. And we'll be back next week because we're, we're back on our normal cadence again. So thanks everyone. See you around. Thank you. Bye.