 Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. Coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today, talking about an event that we're going to have in November. It's pretty exciting. And to talk about it and give us a little bit of a preview, we're joined in this segment by Jeffrey Hammond. He's the vice president and principal analyst at Forrester. Jeffrey, great to see you. It's good to be here, Jeff. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So a lot of social media memes about, you know, what's driving your digital transformation is the CEO, the CIO or COVID. And I think we all know what the answer is, but what's happened is as we've, you know, accelerated digital transformation and we had the light switch moment when everybody working from home, we're now six months, eight months into this and this is going to be going on for a while. So specifically in the context of DevOps, where such a foundation of that is us getting together every morning in a room and having a quick stand up and talking about what our challenge is and going out to develop, we haven't been able to do that for six months and we're probably not going to be able to do it for a little while longer. So how is DevOps in 2021, the age of COVID and even post COVID going to be different from what we had, say 2019? Yeah, Jeff, a couple of years ago, I wrote a piece called Designing Developer Spaces and it was all about creating physical spaces for agile teams to work in because as creative teams, they needed to have an environment that supported them. And the idea of remote working was kind of like an oddity. There was a list up on GitHub of companies that supported remote developers and it was maybe a hundred companies long at that point. And now in 2020, every company is a remote development company. And so all those investments in physical spaces to support cross-functional co-located teams aren't something that we're able to take advantage of today. And as a result, it's forcing companies to become even more disciplined with respect to the things that they do to help development teams work together. It's enforcing them to, you know, focus on what I would call spiritual co-location because physical co-location is no longer an option. And you can't do that without having an even higher attention to automation and DevOps practices that enable it, but also an increased focus on enabling digital collaboration, moving from things like the physical Kanban wall that you put index cards on onto tools that help you replicate that sort of capability, but do it in a digital world when you have a hundred percent remote developers. Right, right. So it just begs a lot of questions, you know, what should people be measuring? How should they be measuring? I mean, we have all kinds of measurement tools and obviously the DevOps processes is continuous thing that's happening every day, pushing out new releases every day. How do the managers kind of rethink about how they're measuring outcomes? I don't want to say success because it's really outcomes and not activity. Yep, it's a really timely question, Jeff. You know, I've been getting a lot of questions from large enterprise development shops about, well, how do I make sure that my employees are still productive now that I can't see them? Should I be measuring individual productivity? You know, my answer is, you know, I don't think so. You really want to be able to, you really want to be able to measure the team level, but you may want to allow individuals to begin to look at their own productivity metrics and benchmark themselves because they can't see the person next to them in the other desk or have that conversation and know that they're doing a good job. So the way that managers works changes significantly and that's one of the things that we'll talk about in November. Right, and I'm just curious how much stuff can we pull from generic leadership as well? Cause it's the same situation. I love your concept of spiritual alignment. That's also got to come not only from the DevOps team, but from all the senior leadership now who don't necessarily have the opportunity to reinforce those messages in the hallway or whatever the kind of the normal communication channels that they used before. But this is well beyond DevOps, but really, you know, leadership in general, I would say. Yeah, it comes down to data, collaboration and shared vision. You know, those principles are not unique to software development, but they're extremely important for any type of creative work. And that's what software development is. So we can learn a lot from the business as a whole, but then we need to apply it specifically in the process and context of developing software. And that's where DevOps creates the link to enable that to happen. Yeah, really an interesting kind of fork on the road, if you will, DevOps has been around, I think for 20 some odd years, fundamental change in the way software is spec'd and built and delivered. But as you said, I mean, even by definition, cross-functional co-located teams simply aren't enabled today and probably won't be for a little while longer. So I think this is probably a lot of information that people are really excited to hear. Yeah, especially because we're now out of the sprint phase. We're moving into a marathon. We're going to have to deal with this for probably at least the next eight to 12 months. So we've got to start thinking differently for the long-term and how we keep our employees productive, but we also keep them happy and make sure that they aren't burning out so that they're developing great software that really matters. Yeah, that's great. Well, thanks for the little tease. We look forward to getting a lot more meat in this topic and diving in November. So Jeffrey, thanks for stopping by. And again, as DevOps virtual forum, November 18th, 11 a.m. Eastern, 80 and Pacific. Jeffrey, we'll see you there. Can't wait, it'll be a lot of fun. Alrighty, he's Jeffrey. I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. So get ready, mark your calendars for November. It's the DevOps virtual forum, November 18th, 11 a.m. Eastern, 80 Pacific. See you there. Thanks for watching.