 Podcast is round table round one hundred and thirty one The thing that hangouts tells me is different. So I'm all distracted usually just says like you're live It's giving me a message, but it says we're live. So we're live Welcome back. We're gonna talk about how many podcasts there are I guess usually We use Apple generically, but we're gonna talk about it's the what is it 300 800 pound? I always ask that 800 pound gorilla. Anyways, we're gonna talk about how many podcasts are our pod fading or are you gonna get into conversation about Podcasts being removed from Apple and whatever else we Decide to go whatever road we decide to go down Welcome back. It is co-host only day here on the round table And that's okay because we want to make plenty of time for for Daniel who's joining us. What's up, Daniel? Hey, it's great to be back and I figured you guys mentioned me enough times that the little ticker counter I have a hit marker a hit counter on my website and every time I get mentioned in podcasters round table It goes up and I was thinking maybe we should make this like a patreon goal Reach a thousand dollars per month and we let Daniel out of his cage, but regardless. I'm here anyway That's right. We're trying to do the Beetlejuice thing or if we say your name enough times you show up and There he was right there in the little box That's where he lives in that little box. We all live just a little box on the internet Dave Jackson. Welcome back Yeah, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting calm and we're getting the band back together man Yes, the chat room is saying OMG. Welcome back Daniel. So I second that Sentiment that's awesome that there's anyone in the chat. So last minute on this one. So welcome I'm gonna go over there in a minute after a week after I toss to someone else But let's talk a little bit about well I tweeted this out the other day and I just went back to get the tweak is like I remember I had a thought about this and then it turns out I retweeted my podcast reviews aka Daniel and I had a comment about it. So let me go to the original Daniels tweet was the total number of podcast in Apple podcast have been unintentionally exaggerated by many And I'm gonna stop there because we're gonna dig in those numbers Because what I wanted to do is bring up the article first. I also tweeted about that So unorganized I got ahead of myself But let me start here. So Tom Webster. Is it webby 2001? So dated himself when he got on Twitter there The Edison research guy as you guys know from the share of ear and all that research for podcasting over many many years Wrote a quick piece on medium the other day and it's called a pointed perspective on the purported Podfating problem and I just want to read the last quote here because this is what I tweeted out And it says I love the the header It says the only difference between a TV show and a podcast is who decides to cancel it Now that's a that's a great line because sometimes, you know, maybe we don't always make the best decision to cancel our show own show sometimes we sort of Cancel ourselves without really saying we're canceled So I certainly have had shows like that But he says I think too much is made of pod fading and in quotes the word pod fading If your show is not getting traction maybe it's time to retool it or decide how committed you are to promoting it or Get some reliable third-party feedback on its quality or stop or keep doing it It's really up to you, but let's retire pod fading It's derogatory and unappreciative of the myriad of reasons why someone might stop doing a podcast Let's celebrate the starters and I thought that was cool. I also, you know, there are all kinds of reasons and he goes into What I was quoting before about the number of podcast That are in let's again, we're going with Apple versus the active number of podcasts and that we are going to to get into that because it's sort of it sort of plays off of that but You know, he's basically saying how hard a podcast is to do and he makes some Correlation between the number of primetime television shows That we're on just in the last like five or ten years and how like 15% of those maybe are still active Maybe I think it's even worse than that But the point is that people he said the point is the people tune into really good content and re making really good content It's a hard thing to do So I did you guys read this I did yeah, what do you think dude? I liked it. I the only thing that made me scratch my head is I've never thought of the phrase Pod fading is derogatory. I've never heard somebody. I've never heard somebody say. Oh you dirty pod fader But when people say it though, I do feel like they say oh that show pod faded and it does feel negative to me Yeah, I could see where it's kind of like add they didn't have the guts to make a quick. Yeah, that person quit It's like the nice way of saying they quit But I I thought it was a great point because if you think about it how many TV shows are like mash or Seinfeld or Cheers or The one with dr. McDreamy that I can never remember a Grey's Anatomy You know those are shows that have gone on for like ever and that's typically not the case You'll have a show go on that's Whatever three or four years and they'll move it to Thursday and then Tuesday and Friday and then it's gone, you know, how long was once on the year? Daniel once upon a time with seven years. Yeah So it's I don't think it's the norm that you have these mega mega hits But boy when they get one boy, they try to squeeze it out as as long as they can but you know How long did Alex Inc last about seven episodes and I think it was gone. So I thought it was a great point What'd you think Daniel? I I'm the guy that wants to make sure we're using the same definition for things and that's what I think is different about this is When Tom wrote this I think he's using what is Kind of the popular understanding of pod fade now, which I think is very different from how What pod fade meant when that first term came about I think a pod fade is not something you do It's actually what happens when you don't do something with your podcast It's when your podcast fades out of existence. So you never pod fade a show a shot a pod a podcast pod fades you could stand Soviet Russia the podcast pod fade you but it's When we say all of these shows that aren't active are pod faded. I do think that's wrong Because then you're saying these shows to me when I hear pod fade because what that means to me is You're saying these shows faded from existence because they're producers their hosts just didn't put enough energy into it And I think that is yeah a little derogatory when there are podcast series out there and hey I checked out one of them recently just exploring the geca tapes. It's a really interesting story Narrated by certain individuals as part of the story. I think it was eight episodes ten episodes something like that I don't think they're going to do another season But it was really good really well done storytelling to that really nice twist at the end and and reveals along the way And there's no need for that show to continue week after week after week after week or season after season after season Serial could have been just one season and then maybe it would have still been super respected So I think we need different terms like there's pod faded There's pod flashed, which is the term I coined for if a show just is like a flash in the pan It starts and stops before it even has a chance to really get going Anchor and They're inactive or retired shows or shows on hiatus or seasonal hiatus is and such so yeah I think just saying any podcast. It's not actively publishing today is pod faded is derogatory Hey, if you think about s towns another one I think that was seven or eight episodes and that was never supposed to be any more episodes That was just a more or less a short story told over x amount of episodes when it was done it was done So yeah, I guess I see the point because you just lump everybody in as a pod fader then that's not always true Yeah, and I think in some cases especially with the storytelling stuff Is that we see that people have sort of made it clear that there's an end to this right? So a lot of podcasters start And they don't define its terms with Daniel with once it's sort of like we're gonna do this until this show Exists or it goes off the air pretty much right Daniel I mean you even got to the point where you didn't want to do it, but you were gonna finish it out, right? Yeah, we made a commitment to that show and and it just kept going and going and going right You're lucky it didn't turn in like the Simpsons or something 20 years later You might have had to renegotiate your own your own terms there, but So yeah, so I think you know, there's show that doesn't have a defined Sort of end date. It doesn't have seasons and then sort of just stops producing Especially a difference if you if you just stop and don't ever say to the audience we're done, right? I mean there's even a difference there which you end it And I think a lot of podcasters always think I'll I'll get back to it, right? And I think in so would you call that pod faded Daniel where someone didn't really? Sort of leave the audience with a with a finality and say we're done. I just kind of went away Yeah, if it it faded from existence either by didn't exist. I mean it's still there, right? I mean it's still in the catalog which we're gonna talk about but yeah New episodes aren't showing up and no one ever said this is over because even the podcaster believes I'll throw I'll get back to it Yeah, if you're leaving your audience hanging like that with no notice of saying I will be back I'm not sure when or just the last episode is join me again next week and there is no episode next week I think that's something like a pod fade. Yeah My favorite and this is such a great example of when you probably should just quit is I've been doing a show for musicians for about 11 years and I normally don't split up interviews But it was really long and we talked about two separate subjects And I put out part one of the interview and I'll be like well play part two next week And I never did and here's the great part about it. Nobody asked about it. That's when you know, okay I've lost my I lost my audience long before I was really spotty with putting out consistent data and Content and I was kind of just I'd lost my passion for it and I put out part one and nobody asked for part two That was the best Your audience faded too. Yeah, it was it that was audience fade. Yeah He even uses the word tell a fade in here. They were gonna need a pocketbook to navigate the freaking world of podcasting here So Take notes. Well, he starts his article Basing it on numbers that he saw for a total number of historical podcasts meaning how many podcasts exist Ever I guess or yeah have been created and put into sort of the Apple podcast Directory and he says approximately 760,000 he's getting those numbers from blueberry which We only need to be somewhere in the ballpark. It's not that important in this case And then he says a percentage of those were updated in the last year Oh percentage of those that were updated in the last year meaning they got a new episode was 39% Something like that but Daniel you have slightly different numbers and then so that's what that tweet when I started off reading that first tweet That's what it was about. You said the total number of podcasts and Apple podcasts have been unintentionally Exaggerated by many as of this afternoon. This was back. I don't know June 14. So not that long ago You said there are seven hundred and five point eight thousand podcasts and Apple podcast and 284 point three thousand forty percent have published an episode within the last 90 days And then you said more data coming soon. So, you know in the ballpark There's somewhere around seven hundred thousand Podcasts, I guess that's in the library Daniel. Yes. Yeah, so what I've been doing and where that bigger number that you may hear Some people say seven hundred fifty seven sixty anything like that. That's coming from Probably tracking how many have ever been added as of when they started looking But what I did is I started filtering out all the shows that have been removed from Apple podcast And since I started tracking in December 2018 47 and a half thousand podcasts have been removed from Apple podcasts Removed for various reasons and we'll probably get into those but so that number of seven hundred ten now is about where it is That is shows that you can actively find right now in Apple podcasts and subscribe to Right and so my my retweet of that and then I with common I said so I said so starting a podcast there Yes, there's lots in the catalog which means it can be hard to break through but given how many podcasts stop production Odd vaid maybe It means if you persist you can compete and I said, you know sort of stick with it It's sort of a positive message there But because if you start a new podcast essentially, you know, it doesn't matter I've often said to people. Hey, you want to start a podcast in X niche whatever it is I said, go look in Apple and see does it exist? How many are there and don't get discouraged by the fact that you find seven in your category how many of those are Producing episodes or they are they still active and it might be, you know, two maybe three of them of the seven that you find So, you know when you first get in yeah, it might be harder to surface But if you are the active podcast if you're one of two active podcasts in that niche then over time That other person who's listening that same niche and found the, you know, that historical podcast has got 30 episodes They're gonna probably migrate towards you because they're gonna run out of stuff. So you you can I think float to the top of your niche if you stick with it, but You know, so there's a you know, it's funny because it's just it feels like there's a lot But there really still isn't and we know this number compared to blogs is just like a fraction So you're so active podcast and how are you defining active podcast? This is where and this is why the numbers I have are so different from blueberries numbers for active is because at least for this data I defined active as any podcast that has published an episode in the last 90 days Even if that's only one episode and they just started and maybe 90 days ago They published one episode and haven't published anything since that is counted in my numbers Now I can filter that down more But that's how I'm at least for now defining active is published an episode within 90 days Yeah, and I think that's you know, and that's kind of what I would say you're you're actually if you want to say competing Against right to be found is this sort of active podcast number. So the library is deep. It's still not that deep But the active podcast is sort of who else is producing podcasts and then I would say even in your own your own niche It's it's not a lot and again It's hard. It's hard to do regular content, right? And here's an even smaller number for you How many podcasts have published an episode within the last seven days? Oh my gosh 48.4 thousand that's six point eight percent of the catalog I would have to say like I'd be more curious about two weeks because that seven day depends on what seven days I don't know. Maybe the last like two weeks gives everyone a chance to publish one episode within a week I mean if the seven days is Yeah, I guess I mean like if you're eight days, I don't know what about can you how fast can you punch up those numbers? Given the round table is a by is a bi-weekly Seven seconds which which I actually think is a which is an interesting What I've seen between while Daniel's looking that up I think it already has it but what I've seen between shows that I do that are bi-weekly and weekly I'm seeing Numbers that are telling me that bi-weekly gives people so that's once every two weeks fortnightly as we say here in the head or the round table Fortnight fortnight fortnight. Is it are we getting indexed for? No one's watching none of the kids are watching it Seth Godin should really be listening to this because we're awesome like Pat Flynn and John Lee Dumas Now we'll get indexed for those words. This is the yeah And since Google is now indexing the podcast via transcription. We just we just hacked the whole system We're going straight to number one, especially if we wanted to make a million dollars in six weeks Oh, how could I make a million dollars in six weeks day with smart passive income? That's Okay, a number of podcasts that have published an episode within the last two weeks fortnight 12,000 one point no, I'm sorry wrong number 143.2 thousand twenty one twenty point one percent That's a see and I tell you went just instead of seven days went fourteen and you like tripled the number Right, it was 40,000 percent. So I think that's a good number of of like who's really active and so as I was saying Shows that are published at least in my very small sample and a totally I'm seeing that showed a show that goes every week Ultimately gets more listens because they're every week But that their per episode number is lower after say like four weeks, right? So the bi-weekly show actually picks up I would say in some of the cases. I'm looking at a couple thousand more So is do you guys think that and it's consistent? Do you think my theory is that it gives? People what are the numbers speaking of Edison? I think in share of your one of the studies They show that one once people start listening to podcasts once they find podcasts They really start to exchange their audio listening time or their listening time to podcast So maybe they shove out more radio. Maybe they shove out audiobooks and they start to listen to even more podcast and so I think that people who listen to podcast regularly have a lot of stuff to listen to and that Having an episode every two weeks gives them more time to get to your episode whereas I think people if if you publish an episode and then you publish another episode and that person has not even gotten to the One that was you know published before the last the most recent one They'll skip it. I don't know. I mean, I'm that's what I'm seeing. I don't think I don't think being bi-weekly is affecting the audience I think it's actually very interesting in some cases I think it gives people more chance to consume it and it depends on the content, right? If you have a topical based show, you're more likely to skip because you want I mean not topical but Like time related time sensitive show When anything like that? Well when the TV show once upon a time in its first and second season had a pretty Unpredictable schedule at times, especially early in the calendar year Where they would be on for two weeks off for a week on for three weeks off for two weeks It's stuff like that and it was really weird and it confused the audience and their viewership declined For a big reason because of that so people would sit down to their TVs to watch and there's no episode And then by the next week, maybe they forgot maybe they thought oh the show is probably canceled It wasn't there last week, but a podcast is different because of the subscription So if someone subscribes to a podcast and there's not an episode there They might not necessarily notice Depending on how loyal of a fan they are But when you do publish an episode as long as they haven't unsubscribed they'll get that next episode. So I think The more content you put out, I think the better it is and easier it is to build an audience more Consistent that schedule is and I think weekly is easy for an audience to get used to as well as a podcaster But you do what you have to do and people can adapt to that. I think yeah, I In your case with the TV show, it's definitely I mean, it's it's like a podcast I haven't telling you where we're gonna be here every week And then you expect the TV show to be there like once the season starts so it especially a major brand like that It's it's very weird or sort of not be there an erratic schedule on a TV show would be very disruptive on a podcast you know ideally but like you said the subscription thing at least delivers it when it is there and You know, I still recommend general recommendations, you know Once a week is sort of that prime spot, but having said that for so long It's interesting what I see in the numbers being every two weeks anything beyond that I think is really just Almost a special special audio on the web type It hardly seems like a podcast, but that's just that's like a personal feeling Of course, if you put one feed you put one episode down a feed once a year that we have a podcast, right? I'm thinking of an illustration here We could call it the law of pod blobbing returns or something like that Imagine a blob like there are certain toys like this that you know You can squeeze and the blob stuff moves around inside it, but something like a TV show high production value Large audience short run series. So its blob shape is very tall very You know rise and fall of the TV show when the show goes off the air the audience Pretty much goes with it and there's that dramatic decline a podcast though You kind of smush that blob down and to one in and that's more the I think growth pattern Of most podcasts where they're publishing consistently over a longer amount of time than the TV show does I mean even just in a yearly schedule TV show is on usually for six months The podcast might go for the full 52 weeks of the year you push that blob down and you have a more gradual growth and Then if your schedule is more infrequent than weekly, you're kind of stretching that blob out I think I want to develop this the law of diminishing pod blobbing returns On fire. I'm getting to see I say I just to put add that to your Pod dash whatever word notebook. I think pod blobbing returns comm is available I'm sure well it was until you said it out loud and then Dave right. It's I'm on it right now Well, you'd mentioned something though that I always forget like right now I have probably over a hundred episodes waiting for me to to listen to and I'm not by any means a Regular podcast listener. What does Edison say? It's like five to seven and we still don't know if that's episode No, we know I this is my this is my pet peeve here the the way the Edison says is they say seven podcasts What is it a week or something like that? Yeah, and I know I asked Tom at a meeting specifically I went up afterwards and I said does this mean seven podcasts meaning shows or episodes in its episodes And why they don't define that it drives me crazy So what it means is people listen it could be three episodes of the school of podcasting and and for audacity to podcast It's seven episodes, right? So that's where if you aren't consistent in your schedule and every Thursday I listened to Ray and all of a sudden it's Thursday and there's no Ray and I got a drive to work I'm like I got to find something because I can't listen to the radio That's where I think it might be a little bigger a more impact on your listener than for me I mean I listened to James Crittle in today, and it was like from four days ago. I'm so far behind on my news So it that's that I think that's a difference to what depends on who your audience is and how many podcasts they listen to if pod fading is gonna be That impactful on your audience. I feel like good. I wish we could know The why behind that answer to when people say I listened to this many quote podcast Whether that's episodes or separate shows but this many podcasts per week Why is it because that's just the number of podcasts that they like is that that's the number of podcasts They have time for is that simply the number of podcasts they subscribe to five years ago And they haven't thought to look for anything since then Yeah, and as Dave as you're talking I it would be curious to know that and I also think that Everyone has a lot of podcasts, but I feel like they always had most people have one or two That they are in that spot where they get in their car. It's Thursday. They're looking forward to and it's not there And they're like, oh man, that hurts right most of the time, you know the beauty of podcast and Finding other shows is that you do have something usually in your app to go to but for me There is one podcast that I will that I will have that feeling. I don't want to have to go to something else I want that show, right? So if you are that person's that show It's more devastating and if you're building it at some point, you know, what do you have a 500 listeners thousand fifteen thousand? That's probably the number if you're seeing that consistently, you know downloads per, you know after four weeks from release That's your base of people who really hope that you show up When you say you show up, right? So It is interesting that the choice we have and and like having to pivot I don't like to have to pivot, but I got plenty to go to and Mad minister in the chat says the bell is our friend which he's commenting back on I said, I was surprised There's anyone here. So if you're watching live, yes, hit that little bell And I don't ever seems to work for me, but the notifications on YouTube Hit that so it's how you won't we're live and if you're if you're listening to the audio only well Hopefully you're subscribed, but you can also go to youtube.com slash podcast roundtable. Check us out there once in a while and Greenlee in the chat mentioned some things that I think yeah He said other shows that are monthly Episodes are huge to sure weekly is a great sweet spot seems like less frequent episodes tend to grow community slower I think there's We need another law of something here for this But there's a thing like I see it right now where yes because of my life right now the audacity to podcast published one episode in 2018 and I'm about to actually publish another episode in 2019 maybe more than one episode in 2019 it might even be available by the time you're hearing this but So when I look at my stats, I see that one episode that one last episode I published in 2018 has a huge number of downloads to it now I'm looking at that not thinking wow my audience has really grown. I'm looking at it thinking all right How many downloads is my next episode going to get because when there's a limited number of episodes or When there are longer gaps between episodes it gives people a lot more time I'm to get those episodes like Dan Carlin's hardcore history where he publishes his audiobook aka also known as a podcast episode every whenever he gets around to it and Those episodes are highly praised. They're really good and there's a lot of time there for people to subscribe download that latest episode so I Don't think it's necessarily That infrequent episodes you can say Have a bigger audience. I think it's just they get more downloads Well, and in your case you're that's the one people are landing on when they find your show It's the one at the top right and Rob said he also said he's seen faster audience growth with two episodes a week To he said it depends on the content and the community of course. It's always it depends right Yeah, I've seen that though I've had somebody this week that contacted me and said hey our numbers are way down What's going on and I looked and they would literally they would put out like I do two episodes And then they'd skip like three months Then they'd put out another two episodes and then they kind of went okay We're doing this for real and they put out episodes like once a week And I said the reason your numbers are smaller is because your other ones had three months of people downloading that episode So to kind of go back with what Daniel says. Yeah when when you take a break or if there's more time in between If somebody subscribes to your show Most apps will download that the your latest episodes So you're gonna get more downloads from that and I think that that that sort of four week number is important Right, so Daniel's talking about how many episodes how many downloads will my next episode get so looking at how many downloads You get four weeks from the date of publish Gives you a better idea of what your next episode is probably gonna perform in that same timeframe because like we you know Again having that one that sits there all the time is gonna get more downloads It's not gonna give you an indication of what the next The next is but that that that number This is what number we've kind of always used to sort of guesstimate the subscriber base If you see that after four weeks from publish Average that at over like three four months you get some idea that you can probably count on Maybe that number's a thousand you can count on a thousand people downloading within four weeks the next episode So you have some idea right I think it depends on how you approach the content for your show as well Because you can look at other types of traditional media that are out there Movies they might make a few movies in a series and they're done They might make a one-off movie and they're done just that one movie a TV shows maybe a few seasons and they're done Books sometimes it's one book sometimes. It's a series of books and they're done But a magazine that's month after month after month or quarter after quarter However, often that is same thing with newspapers now magazines and newspapers I know are kind of dying mediums right now But a podcast could be like that TV show or movie or book where it's something that you put a lot of Hard work into it. You make some great material. That's timeless that people will enjoy for years to come and you're done and Or your podcast could be like the magazine Which I think our podcasts are like that where we've always got something to say about our industry And so we're publishing more like a magazine format constantly bringing out new information new coverage new ideas new approaches Is the way that you guys think of seasons has that changed at all How are we seeing the rise of seasons and obviously it's anecdotal? I don't have data on this but you know as I think about pod fading as I go through struggling with pod fading of my own shows as this show is not always consistent the podcast studio certainly sort of sits there gets a show whenever and And I and I've also worked on some other shows that do seasons and you know, is it a more? Sane way to work like the I don't miss an episode ever I'm here every week is a bit insane on some level It's it's a bit not insane, but it that's a lot of pressure to put on yourself, especially if it's not your job And I think it is put on yourself I think a lot of podcasters do that to themselves and we talked about burnout on on this on one of these rounds But seasons what do you guys think of I mean I'm I kind of like the idea of Producing eight episodes calling it a season in that the audience knows right. There's an expectation there Okay, they know you know, it's break time. It's summer. We don't podcast in the summer We'll be back with another season and I don't know How that really hurts if you're telling people yeah, we do seasons I don't know what do you guys think about seasons as a change is your opinion on seasons change Do you have an opinion on seasons? For me, I think you have to nail on the head you have to communicate with your audience what's going on Is there a part? Because I am I am that guy that doesn't want to miss every Monday come hell or high water if I get hit by a deer I'm still putting out a podcast And I don't know why that is I think at this point just because it's such a long streak. Yeah, but There is I have heard comments kind of like well if you do seasons, you know, come on You know buckle up and get in there and do it every week or whatever it is But I think in the long run You have to take care of you and I'm actually thinking about I do A show called the podcast rodeo show and that's three days a week now. It's a really short show But I'm actually thinking of going to my audience and going I'm going to do three weeks on one week off Because they're just it's just it's a lot of shows to do And if if it starts to burn you out then something's gotta Gotta give so I don't know. So I'm not really the only thing I worry about is I really think I would have loved to see what cereal would have done if they had taken like a two week break Not a they took a long break between one and two They were your thoughts Daniel like a year doesn't work. Yeah Danny, what are your thoughts on seasons? It depends on the show and that's the thing that since Podcasting first came out There's a lot more creativity into the space of how we can use this medium I mean, look how long it took apple to come out with new categories for apple podcasts And we didn't need a true crime category 10 years ago. Well now we do because there's Thinking so many true crime podcasts out there and these all of these other categories as the industry has changed over the years So I think seasonal approaches can fit some shows Maybe not others and some ways that I've seen it done really well like a long running podcast I'm not sure if it's still running because I'm no longer in this industry but the boag world web design podcast did seasons that Did follow somewhat of a seasonal schedule But also followed seasonal topics and I thought Their approach to seasons was really clever because they could re-approach the same topic But from a different perspective like one season was the tools season So every episode they were talking about certain tools for web design One season was the top 10 season So every episode was a top 10 of something for web designers One season was talking with clients to learn about the web design process so every episode was that And I think they did take some breaks between the seasons. You don't have to take a break between seasons seasons could be Topical they could be schedule based. I think it really goes to What fits you what fits your content what fits your audience if you do a news show current events kind of show There might not be seasons for your content and your audience is going to miss you Even if your content is seasonal like you do a tv show fan podcast your audience might be desperate for content when The tv show is off the air and they want to hear from you, but it still needs to be good content Dave pulled the you pulled the same Comment out of the chat and put it in the private chat here that I also was going to mention. So what was that? Yeah, patrick keller says as a listener seasons annoy me Um the shows that do seasons tend to have no rhyme or reason for why or when I think that again goes back to communicating with your audience if you say Hey, we're gonna return in two weeks Because I said so I don't know about you growing up because I said so was that never went over well with me but if somebody says hey, I'm going to take two weeks off because I don't know. I got whatever the reason is Uh, I think if you give any reason period Your audience is your friends and unless it's something like because I don't feel like it Which again is a legitimate reason, but I don't know that anybody's going to go. Well I'm not going to listen to him anymore. Why was grandma died. So forget it. He did Can't make an episode, you know when granny died. I'm like, I think if anybody said anything they'll be like Oh, okay. Well, yeah, he's got to take care of some stuff And you know, we'll see him when he gets back. So I think it all comes back to communication yeah, and I think that you know What he's saying there too like an interview show that just does seasons They're like what you just season two is Interviews with the same people like I don't understand why there's the same question Right. So I think if you define the reason for the season being this is how I produce like I'm going to Do intensive production for the next eight weeks and then I'm taking four weeks off or whatever it is I I do think defining it also makes me wonder And it is related to the content. How much do we produce for The sort of the current listener and then just sort of the catalog Um, I mean honestly I've kind of always looked at the podcaster studio as building a catalog. So if a new podcaster found it They could learn how to podcast and it didn't really matter That they found it today or they find it a year or two years from now It was more important to me to have a body of work That someone could go through and do the thing I want them to do which is start a podcast And so I'm not very interested in keeping up with with news per se I'm interested in keeping up with stuff that would change how like best practice to how maybe how you start a podcast But you know seasons like a story like serial is still being You know or finding richard simmons. I think is what it was called, which I love you can pick that up anytime Now it will start to get old serial the case Will become less relevant over the years although it's still things are still going on But in cases like that You're really producing for it's almost like a book Like anyone could pick it up Sort of start it and put it down and go on to the next thing. So often it just made me think about producing for Sort of the weekly listener and then sort of the someone who's going to come in and get something from it Especially as I think about how google podcast is In theory going to work where it's going to surface content for things people are searching for If that thing is your podcast then it might serve it up to them to get Well, we talked about with evo not necessarily get an answer that probably won't surface but you know Because they search for a topic and so they might not be there Weekly you might be you know my youtube channel runs on search. I mean it does not doesn't mean when I publish a video I'm gonna get The 60 000 subs that if they're not gonna watch it runs on search So I'm curious how pot podcast might pivot to running on search and how that might be how might that play into our production I don't know any spot. I literally just thought about that Mike row had a great example. He does The way I heard it podcast and he got a book deal because of his podcast And he basically said I I forget how many months he's taking off He goes because I need to go write this book and he gives you know some of it's based on The podcast he has to write some new stuff and he goes and if I try to write the book and do the podcast I will die He's like, so I'm just going to take some time off. I'll be back I think he said in august and I'll have new episodes. I'm recording them now And you know some other things going on and at that point I was like, oh cool. I'm a and then he even said You know, I'll let you know When the book comes out because if you can you know, he started kind of primed the pump It's like hey when it comes out and everybody go buy the book and I thought that was just a great example of like, okay Here's how you take a break. Here's you know, I'm taking a break and here's why and here's what I'm coming back If you know when that is so it was a really interesting psychology study done several years ago Not quite sure what to look up for it, but the the basics of it. I'm sorry. I can't quote the actual numbers, but the basics were What kind of effect does giving a reason? Have on people so they used examples of Someone cutting in line to make some copies at a copy store. Boy, this sounds so dated already So they said when someone would just simply ask. Hey, can I cut in line? They were very Unlikely to be allowed to cut in line But if someone said asked can I cut in line? I'm in a hurry or my kids in the car or whatever There was a very high percentage that they'd be allowed to cut in line But even if they simply said hey, can I cut in line? I need to make some copies Which everyone else is in the line to make copies, but simply giving a reason Significantly jumped up the percentage almost to the same level of I've got this emergency or this urgent circumstance Just simply giving that reason. So I think when you hear people like micro or anyone else say I'm going to take a break from the podcast because of this Because I need some time for my personal life or because Someone's sick or because I'm working on this other project simply giving a reason as long as it's truthful, you know, Eric Forgot his name Ashley Johnson, okay, John. Um, he says, you know always tell the truth. That's a big thing too. So Just simply giving that reason. I think your audience will sympathize a lot more with that and In a way kind of maybe feel part of it Yeah, it's it seems so Obvious, but we don't always do it, right? It does seem obvious. You're like, yeah, it makes total sense But uh, this is how you hack humans Like, you know, social engineering, but really giving people a reason Um, yeah, I mean it goes back Dave like Dave said communicate with your audience. That's very important And you know, I mean, I obviously the ideal is You want this? We're here every two weeks you can count on it and I would say if you're for the most part Consistent with that you're fine. Um, I don't give enough reasons I just say, uh, you know life is crazy and you know this show I'm gonna lean on the fact that the people who do consume the show are also podcasters. So they get it Stuff is hard, man Um, but you know life is crazy. But yeah, I think that's you know, again communicate with your audience A reasons can really change I think how that communication goes or lack of communication. So I was also With this article and then talking about the number of podcasts in apple podcast and daniel you already led us into this about apple Getting rid of podcasts. So you've been kind of tracking this lately, right? What have you been seeing? Yeah, I haven't dug into yet why But yeah since december 2018. It's uh, june 2019 now 47 and a half thousand podcasts have been removed from apple podcasts Do you know how many have been added? Yes, uh in that same amount of time. Yeah, um 100 and something thousand So the number was 609,000 in early december or november uh, 2018 and That was before these 47 and a half thousand have been removed. So about 160,000 rough guests off the top of my head Podcasts have been added Since then so around 150,000 this year And some of those that have been added have also been removed Right So we hear this all the time people get frustrated We talk about being found or that that I talked about there are seven shows in your niche and there's one That has been not active for six years, but you can never Climb above it. You don't rank. Uh, it always comes up first, right and people Wonder why this is they go crazy because they're active and that show is not Even though basically that has to do with the fact that still more people are Subscribing or consuming that podcast. It's really good. All right, it's enough to drive people or It's got this long tail Uh effect of you know, maybe some of that goes to algorithm and the fact that it was there longer helps, right? But So some people want they just want purge. They just want the purge They want people who who shows they're not active I want them gone But we don't can we speculate on some ideas why apple is pulling out these What what do we think makes apple take a podcast out because it's not just the fact that you're not active That's not enough and I don't think you'd want that. Honestly. Well, there there are still people keyword stuffing And it's um, and so I have seen that where somebody would be like, hey I'm trying to relist my show on apple And I'm hitting a snag on something and I'll be like, okay Well, hold on a second and then you'll go in and you'll see well I can see why you got pulled Because there's just keywords all over the place and their author field has all sorts of stuff in it that it shouldn't have Yeah, I'm like, okay. Well first things first you need to clean this up. So that's still going on Um, I think we don't hear about it as much because I think the people in the past that we're getting pulled We're in like the top 200. So it was a little maybe more of a You know, if somebody said hey, I got pulled and you're a top 200 person in theory You're gonna have a bigger audience than somebody who's not in the top 200 that says hey, I got pulled So I think that's part of it. Um, Daniel, do you know any other reasons why? Yeah, so those that you just mentioned I would say those were kicked out because they were violating the terms in some reason I think the other really big reason podcasts are removed are for technical reasons their feed is broken their episodes don't download I've seen that happen to some clients where they they break something in their feed They don't realize it and two weeks later they're asking Why is my podcast no longer an apple podcast? And it's because their feed is broken or no episodes or no episodes download or something like that So for technical reasons and I've definitely seen that as Produce picture. It's it the blip.tv where I was host they went away And at some point I didn't even think about it because I was also done with the show And then only realized I probably like a podcast connect when that came out. I was like, oh, it shows you it's like Deleted I'm like, well, of course the feed doesn't work right that there's no you can't get these files And there is essentially I think there was still a feed, but there's no files So that was that's a reason I would have got I got removed. I didn't even know Even just in the data I've been working with recently the last few days I see Looks like maybe 25,000 feeds That I couldn't pull Data from and that could be for various reasons. It could be a bug in my code. I know there are some bugs But I did see a lot of instances where the feed was invalid either the feed Was broken or it had invalid tags Or something technically wrong with it. I think that's the biggest reason number one will remove something But even a couple years ago at one of the wwdc conferences James Boggs the head over apple podcast Said that they are constantly cleaning up their Directory to remove podcasts that are Having technical problems or that break the rules I think that's the main two reasons podcasts are removed technical problems or break the rules no episodes I don't think apple is going to remove anything just because it hasn't published an episode as long as the feed works Yeah, and that's the thing is and that's really if you think about it That's that's the intent of the podcaster if they're keeping the feed alive So in this case if they're paying lipson To host their files and keep the feed alive like the whole point was I mean think about Think about finding richard simons. Is that is that what it's called anyways anyway missing richard simons? I think not right. I was it keeps coming out of my mouth. It's not right. It's good I enjoyed it but in that case like no more episodes are coming down But he obviously the the author the podcasters he doesn't he wants it there It's it's there to live like I said sort of be consumed when anyone finds it almost in the way of a book. So you certainly Shows that are not Producing active episodes does not mean they should be removed and I think a lot of people I think people might want More weight to go towards active podcast and I say weight The algorithm whatever whatever guides itunes moving up down the charts, which honestly who cares but people do care I'm gonna make a difference whatever What do you guys think? You know, do you think that um, there should be some more? I don't know I mean I even have a hard time asking because it's like I don't really care about charts So to speak and it because only because I say that because it doesn't make a difference I think apple is getting really big into machine learning And I think they're pointing some of those algorithms toward podcasts And maybe that's why some podcasts have been removed more recently like in the chat room just now Patrick teller asks are there still podcasts without artwork? Well, one of the things in apple's requirements is they say Don't have placeholder text or cover art or no placeholder information in your show So maybe their machine learning algorithms are looking for All of those podcasts that still have the default Podpress logo or something like that, you know some default logo some default title or default text And maybe they're removing those they're not technically broken But they're not doing things properly I think as far as What where there else they'll go with that machine learning is taking some of this other data they're getting on How much episodes are consumed youtube has been doing this for years Where and this is one of the big reasons i'm against fake video on youtube If a video Has tens of thousands of views, but those views only stick around For 30 seconds and then leave youtube is going to see this video For some reason is turning people away. So this isn't a very good video I think apple may this is only a theory or hypothesis. Maybe even Apple may start implementing algorithms like that as well They have the really cool that I think they should they have the retention stat, right? So and I think you know youtube has figured this out You know youtube had to switch to that model because Things were gamed and be like this this video got a million views It clearly should be put in front of people, but then they found out okay You know, obviously there are ways to game that but it's it's a lot harder to game the fact that you know 100,000 people watched 75 percent of the video, right? Of course, there are ways but retention is a great indicator for How how are people receiving the content right? It's one thing for it's one thing to get people to click on it Which is the hard enough as it is but then to keep them is a big deal And so yeah, I think that You know, are you saying that you would like to see that factored into how podcasts are ranked inside of apple sort of surfaced in even search Yeah, because just for the Pure fact that it's not something that can be gamed very easily It's not simply clicking a button But yeah in search in charts in features And maybe apple is even already using that for what they decide to really feature They see wow this episode is getting listened to a lot It's a six hour long episode and people are listening to every single minute of it. Let's feature this podcast So yeah, I think they're they're going to use that or are maybe already And I would like to see that we do get the stat like it's almost like a foreshadowing right? It's like what is apple showing you that they're collecting and we've gotten this retention stat for now over a year So it almost, you know the same way with youtube like youtube will give you the information that they're also looking at because they want you to produce better stuff And so yeah, it does seem logical to me that that that they would go in that direction Now when I said it doesn't matter do you guys? Do you think it would matter? So Okay, good. They're doing something that is surfacing relevant content that people like Does that have enough do you think that has any kind of impact on someone show or it's just Okay, cool. You got the search better It depends on how they build the algorithm because if it's if it's measuring audience size, I think that's Not always a good thing because then it's the independent people who get left out Who may have really good quality content? Well, that's why I think retention is big there because these shows that are featured You you might have an independent show that's getting way better retention even in its own even in the same niche But I'm I'm asking I guess I'm asking do people even search this what does it matter? The jacob's media had a thing and they said 70 of people are basically finding podcasts through word of mouth Right, which is oftentimes Another podcast they're listening to I would say word of mouth sounds weird It sounds it sounds like my neighbor came over and was like dude open the door. You gotta hear this podcast International podcast day is coming up. That's right. Not my neighbor's doors We're going canvassing people. Yeah, but that could be I mean you're right word of mouth could be I heard it on another podcast You know, so I mean that's what I'm saying like obviously it's it's kind of like the IAB like People harp and they talk about and they're just constantly trying to figure out what a download is So they can deliver these numbers so we can get big brands like forward and lays chips and I don't care most people don't care. These are not brand deals that most people want These are pennies on the dollar. It's useless. We spend a lot of energy talking about this But it's not usually the way that most podcasters are even going to persist or even deal with it Is kind of a one percenter type game yet. It's still important. I think to figure out how to Get the most accurate analytics and I think in the same way we want search to work the best it can You know and google is obviously working on their own Way to sort of surface podcast and search and so maybe Maybe if we tweak on search even though that's where the question becomes weird because it's like well if people aren't searching this way I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. I think we want the best we can get But if people are not using the system How much does it matter? It's like it's like reading reaching, uh, nirvana. You you can't get there, but you don't stop trying It's building a foundation for what people may do later Like right now we say yeah people don't search for podcasts very much But people do get on netflix and search for something to watch they channel sort of Some I did it just recently Um, but unless they know something they want to watch or their show that they like Is there with Superpowered by word of mouth though like everyone's like have you seen this show you have to watch handmade You know what I mean like super powered by word of mouth Oh, yeah I think later as people get more and more accustomed to podcast consumption They may Want to go find something new or they may be thinking of oh, this is a really good podcast this whole new world A podcast has opened up to me. I'm interested in such and such. I want to find a podcast about that I think that's where the foundation that's being laid still Will really help later in the future for people to find a right podcast for them And I think this this actually applied to me recently because for the first time in That I could recall I was in apple podcast searching for just trying to find a podcast and why was that because Um, I let my daughter come and go to sleep in my office And I was like look, you know, she wants to watch her show or whatever and I was like no no Watching times over I said but you can listen to a podcast if you close your eyes I'll I'll play a podcast and I was like I don't necessarily have I wanted to find something new like not just the one she listens to so I just went to kids and I started searching and let me tell you Half of the stuff I was like this is not at all what I'm looking for and I think I ended up on a gimlet show And it was all artwork based like they just nailed the artwork and that's how I was searching I was like what looks interesting so in this case it was one of the few times where I did go To search and you know, I'm sure that show came up within the first, you know 100 or whatever the list shows you this thing is on the apple tv at the time Um, so I think it can be category dependent too. I mean in that case it was just like I'm not a kid, but I need something for my kid, right? So I'm just like let me just search the category and see What looks interesting almost like youtube. I mean thumbnail driven So I thought it was really interesting because I was like kind of laughing As I sat there searching going this is the way I've never I'd say the people never search this way here I am like trying to find a pod I just did that too because I ran out of podcasts that make me laugh I wanted a podcast to make me laugh so in overcast I went looking in the comedy section And this may be the beginning of the end folks. I found an npr podcast and I actually I liked it But it wasn't the traditional way we think of npr podcast It was wait, wait, don't tell me which is a game show and it's very entertaining And that's why I liked it and uh subscribed and downloaded all the back episodes that were available. There you go What happened I can't believe you ran out of podcasts That's maybe the that is the actual shocking part of your sentence In that playlist in overcast I ran out of podcasts Ah, yes comedies, but I mean it was john there was niche specific again, right so you know with this whole reshuffling of the categories Do you think as I said, I was kids and family that I was looking in and you know, I'm getting pod I'm looking for sort of a storytelling podcast. It's focused at kids, but I'm getting a lot of Podcasts that are for parents, right? So I'm like, this is not what I'm what I wanted So in that case, I wanted I want just podcasts that are for kids So do you think that this what do you guys think of the reshuffling of the categories? If you guys don't know if you're listening to this or watching this, um apple has They've gotten rid of some subcategories. Maybe even a couple primary. I'm not sure and Added some others. So if like our our category for this show would be podcasting It's gone It was never useful because all of you who have a podcast also thought you were in the podcasting category So it made it made us irrelevant So but we're going to be in those cases if they're getting rid of your sub cat sub cat sub cat Oh, that's a good logo for them. I just want to be a sub cat. Um It's uh any talented illustrators. Please draw me a sub cat. Um, we're just going to be bumped up to tech I think and then we can switch it if we want, um But what do you guys think of the reshuffling the the recreating the getting rid of categories Well for me You never take things away from your customer. So I know the people in k through 12 are like, what do you mean? You're taking away k through 12 and we're sitting here. It could be I I mean Yeah, uh, I think it's a great start I it is one of those things where because I heard Todd talking about this like they don't have a lg bt xkm whatever that is uh category and um The guy from apple was like well if we do that then we have to have male and female in african-american and i'm like Well, yeah, you could And i'm like is that such a bad thing really to have too? I mean, is it bad to have too many categories? I don't know and that's it kind of goes back to like you said how many people actually surf That way. I don't know. Daniel. What are your thoughts on the categories? I think they're generally good now some things like the k through 12 Uh, I don't think that's completely gone. I think it's simply renamed. I have yet to see how the id numbers behind these categories change Um, so like yes education k through 12 is gone But there's now kids and family Education for kids That might be the same thing. Maybe that's that's just moved over I think these categories Are pretty well thought out my in general One problem with the categories is when A single subcategory could appear under multiple top level categories. For example news there's a Or no news, uh, let's do fiction. So under fiction. There's comedy fiction drama and science fiction Under comedy there's comedy interviews improv and stand-up So if you want comedy fiction Are you going to go to comedy first or are you going to go to fiction first if you go to fiction first? You'll find comedy fiction. But if you go to comedy first You won't find comedy fiction under there. So I wish that they would have These tied together a little bit more and I did send this feedback to them so that Someone can end up in the same place through multiple routes as comedy fiction music news TV movie news Different things like that can go under multiple categories as far as like what's missing I think that For one thing they probably looked a lot at what's currently being used Where are shows fitting and how important is it to have a specific category for kind of show And do they do people really expect to find something like that and one of the breakdowns there is I'd catch us have to choose where to put themselves All right, so like where you think you belong might not be where someone's searching I mean it it's an imperfect system and just to clear it up adam says lgbtq plus Dave so just to get yes, I've been getting schooled. Yes, exactly. So it's very important and they What if there was something else in the comments? um Oh, uh, patrick was saying he doesn't he doesn't have like paranormal is still homeless doesn't have a category So, you know, how do you define yourself? where do you put yourself where people searching and Isn't it primary category only that you can pick several You can pick like in lips and you can pick three Categories or is it how does that work dave three categories and then in a sub of each or just You could pick like your second category could be a sub category, right? But Only primary matters to apple right daniel Yeah, that's what they said is that It's the most important one It because that's where you'll be found in any kind of top 200 list, right? Right that how that works as well as the listing for your show where Although does the new apple podcast app have this I forget Where at least on itunes, I would say at the top the category That's from your first category Dave do you have any general advice to people who are asking how they should categories their podcast? I would just say pick the The one that matches what you feel is the best And then don't worry about it. And what I always do is the minute I am listed in apple Grab that link and put on your website because the last thing you want to rely on is search In any app for the for the record, uh spotify is starting to get Not so great Radio.com so great at what? Uh finding like, you know, if you type in the feed You won't find it. You'll find five other shows labeled the feed But you have to type in the libson to find libson show called the feed So their search just isn't very good or I don't want to blame it all on them. Maybe they need other things to Make it easier to find shows or whatever But I have people that have said type in the name of my show and it doesn't show up And that's just the truth. So When you do get listed Grab that link. There's a great plugin daniel. What's the name of that one plugin something subscribe? I forget the name. You might have heard of it Social subscribe and follow maybe yeah, there's a great plugin that will allow you to make a Really pretty subscribe links right on your website So you could direct people to your website to subscribe and then if you find find people in search, that's great, but I don't I don't know. I don't put a lot of stock in it Well, you shouldn't really be telling people to find you that way anyways, right? Yeah, don't the to me The worst thing you could say is find me an apple podcast. I'm like Here's where The search does concern me a little bit. So we say and I agree don't tell people find me Please never tell them that But you also don't want to overload your sites. Yes, I made social subscribe and follow icons plugin for wordpress and it has now I think 57 different icons on it for the love of all things pod Do not put all 57 icons on your site but What happens for those people Who like us? Dave uses overcast. I use overcast ray. What podcast app are you using now cast? Pocket cast. Yeah, so we're all not using apple podcasts. So for all those podcast websites out there that link to apple podcasts The apple podcast button Is not relevant to us so That's where They did help out with that a little bit You can now land on anyone can land on it and play, but it's not obviously ideal for that Yeah, but if I want to subscribe to a podcast in my preferred podcast app I do end up having to search because it's just not reasonable to have all of those subscription buttons on the website. So that's where I think it's good to say subscribe at my awesome podcast.com or your favorite podcast app But we're still Depending on search to some degree Yeah, and maybe that's well, you know, I was I was talking about people on search that way, but it could be that You at least want to make it good for the minority of people who are Who are answering like a call to action, right? So like That it might not be that your numbers show that the most people are finding new podcasts that way But the but there might be like the four percent Who are really important because those those that four percent are actual intentional subscribers and they can't find your show And then they bail right like you're saying Dave with the feed like You know, I mean most times people will jump through hoops to try to get something they want, but you know We you don't just look at the numbers by themselves. You really have to take the the quality or the the The reason behind why someone might be searching and I think in this case making it as good as possible And it's it's crazy too, right because everyone reinvents the wheel Um, I've seen this done at work too. It's like Well, google's figured out search a lot of cases or at least is put in You know massive that that is their business model Um, but everyone's got to redo it themselves, right apple podcast learning Spotify probably has to learn how to create search And I don't know if this is a A development issue or it's it's some kind of stubbornness, but we can't just plug in something to our system Like I mean, I know there are plugins for google like on your website That wordpress is a good one like search can really suck on your own wordpress podcast site Um, unless you plug in something else that does search for you, right? Daniel, you might know a little bit more about this But I mean it just it's crazy to me that we have to reinvent that each of these platforms have to reinvent the wheel so While three of them get it right one one is really far behind And when it comes to the categories too, how much are we wanting to make the categories replace search? Because when it comes to certain things like um, lifestyle decisions or or Whatever it is. Are you really wanting a category? Or do you want to just be able to search and find the podcast? Netflix relies on it a lot because you'll I always go to new releases Right like what's new and then or there's comedy. I think when you're watching a program like that You're going for a product you do you have a general idea tonight. I want to watch romance tonight I want to watch comedy right and action. So in those cases. I think I mean just judging on what I see when I open Netflix. It's pretty important categories Yeah, and those are very very high level top level categories And I think like even having true crime as a top level category That's one where I think that's it really catering. That shouldn't be there. Let's just face it Not only do not only do if you want to look you want to make money in podcasting start a true crime show We've learned that that's actually what they say. Um, big money is in In true crime right now. You know that also we don't need to start a whole nother round table, but um, I really In a future round table, we'll talk about and maybe we'll get like rob greenlee on here if he's still in the chat but How much of this Industry so to speak because I'm using that as a very specific term is is driven by 1% of the podcast It sounds like a lot. It sounds like a lot A lot of the money coming in is being funneled through very few of the podcast being produced. So Bookmark that one I want to go there So we're saying that 1% That's 712 podcasts Well, I'd use 1% as a generic I know elite the the more than and so who was it was it Todd? I think new media show And that's why I mentioned rob. They came out with some stats where it was like Uh, yeah, I was Todd talking about some stats and who knows here's the case of I don't know if it's the most recent episode I just picked one that I hadn't listened to in a while and he was talking about how um You know podcasts that get 500 000 listens per and above I mean, we're talking, you know Very few numbers here like get the one in above the 500 000 you get the 45 000 to 200 000 and and the drastic swings between how many podcasts there were when you break down like sort of Downloads per episode over four weeks that number. It was very fascinating and you know, we we keep we constantly are hearing Podcasts exploding and and there's going to be a two million a two billion dollar business by next year and all this stuff and I and you know that money comes from usually big brands and um, I think a lot of it is not going across The podcast spectrum. I think these numbers like two billion is being propped up by Very small percentage of podcasts which on the one hand Makes you worry, but on the other hand makes me super optimistic because it's like look how far we've gone on potentially Not a ton of inventory catalog podcast And like wow, there's a ton of potential here. You know, we always say Radio is just leaps and bounds beyond podcasting in terms of revenue Um, but as we build that library and more shows come on board that find a really Like wall big audience. Well, how are we going to find that means 500,000 more? uh downloads per episode I don't know seems like a lot of potential. I mean it sounds like we're making we're making really big inroads with Not a ton Of podcasts and you know and a lot of shows it a lot of podcasts it doesn't apply to I mean like That none of our show or none of my shows are in it for ad revenue and that's why I say Man, most of these numbers that they talk about don't matter Don't matter to me don't matter to a lot of independent podcasts because cpm is not the is not the way forward for a lot of podcasts Yeah, the uh, the numbers from libson from from rob. This is from march. So this is a couple months old Top seven percent is five thousand or above. That's one out of 14 Right five thousand that's and that's I would consider that small Yeah, like on a scale of when we're talking about I mean five thousand is the number rob says that a lot of advertisers want to see to start with Right, that's a threshold I mean when when you take that number up to 50,000 100,000 what what would be considered sort of a prime time show? Uh, yeah Well, in my in my notes here top two percent 19,000 Top one percent. Yeah top one percent 34,000 or above 34,000 downloads for Is you're in you're in the top one percent? Yeah, okay. It's even more dramatic than I was making it out to be when I said one percent Yeah That's from march That's crazy and I think it's actually good because it tells us We've gotten real attention, you know, I mean we joke about serial and stuff like that But it it brought real attention and in theory it brought some new money and I think we're doing I say all the time podcasts do more with a little something like that You don't need a lot to do, you know, you can do a little wait You can do a lot with a little with podcasting something like that, right? And that goes with audience, right? We talk about You know a thousand people who listen to your show every week um You can do a lot more with that than say a tv network. They can't do anything with that But a podcast could could pretty much exist. You could you could make an income in theory off of something like that And that was off by the way. It's seven thousand 120 not seven hundred twenty would be one percent Yeah, when I was in new york, uh at an event, um the producer of missing richard simmonds Okay, david somewhere to go it's a good Alexa stuff um But the producer Of that said I think it was five percent if you gave her five percent Of the budget of a tv pilot she could make a whole year of a podcast Yeah, and that's where I think you're going to start seeing more shows Kind of be developed. Yeah. Yeah, the the pilot is going to be the podcast and if it picks up steam Then it's going to follow the path of lore and homecoming and these other ones that have uh, You know been turned into tv shows Yeah It's interesting I said we wouldn't open up talk if we got there I started going I said Stop me cut myself off like someone Someone just uh, stapled his lips shut for gosh sakes. All right. Well good That's a good place for us to wrap and I'll take some notes and then maybe approach You know other people who think of the space paul Evo rob they all think of the space in these terms and always have good opinions And then of course we'll get One of you from the audience on A podcast around table dot com slash guest if you want to appear I will reach out to you ask if you'd like to appear on a round table if the time works We'll bring you on and we'll probably give you 24 hours notice or less. So be prepared. It's like a game show here Who will make it? to the round table All right, that's the sign. We need to go daniel j lewis. Thanks for uh joining us. I don't know If you'll be here next time, but the chat has certainly enjoyed your presence. And so if you're not here Expect a lot of mentions Thanks, we'll see how my hit counter does that's right And you can check out my episode if it's already published or publishing soon at the audacity to podcast dot com And I want to leave you with this thought Almost three million podcast episodes have been published in the last 90 days So how are you going to make yours stand out and be better? That is the trick if only apple would show it to people Nine would be better. It's all new and noteworthy I'm gonna get in that new noteworthy Eight weeks is up. Okay, dave jackson Yeah, dave jackson school of podcasting dot com This week on the school of podcasting. I will be answering the question What are the best ways to make money with your podcast? But step one is you do have to have An audience so that could be a problem in some cases Such clickbait davis figured out how to do clickbait. I love it how to make money Is it I think every episode has like dollar sign emojis. That's it And that's that's the title of every episode regardless of what it's about. Yes, exactly. I'll just put in Million dollar podcasts and etc. Etc. Tons of clicks until they start measuring attention, dave. You're good You're in the money. All right podcasters round table dot com Subscribe check us out youtube all the places. We'll see you next time. Thanks again Awesome to the chat chris patrick Christopher's to chris and christopher. Thanks for showing up bangs adam Dave jackson always doing it up in the in the chat for us. Thanks, dave All right wave. Goodbye. See you