 the NJSA podcast, the newsroom for telecom and data center professionals. I'm Dean Perine and on behalf of JSA, thank you for tuning in to our JSA virtual roundtable, infrastructure and sustainability predictions for 2023. What you need to know an important discussion today, but first a little housekeeping before we begin our first 100 registrants for today's roundtable have now received lunch delivered right to your door or a gift card. So please enjoy that lunch or that gift card. If you weren't one of our first registrants, hopefully next time be sure to get in on the front of that stuff. Make sure you register early for our monthly roundtables at jsa.net to get that free lunch as well. We want to hear from you and make this roundtable experience as interactive as humanly possible. So please add any questions you might have. Excuse me into the chat and our panelists will get those and assuming that we have time at the end of our discussion. Be sure to stick around once the roundtable is over today. So you can join the virtual networking tables immediately following a immediately following this discussion for a unique opportunity to talk face to face with our event attendees and speakers. You simply join a table in the lounge area and let the networking begin. OK, without further ado, let's go ahead and get started. It is my pleasure to hand things over to our moderator and the ever present and incomparable Mr. Rob Powell. Rob is the founder and chief editor of telecom ramblings. Rob, it's all yours. Well, thank you. Thank you to my good friends at JSA for inviting me to moderate this online panel. Today's topic is infrastructure and sustainability predictions for 2023 and what you need to know. And we have five industry leaders here to give us their thoughts. Let's introduce them quickly here right now. You raise your hand as I introduce you. Luke Kipfer, vice president of data center development and construction at ARAP and powerhouse. We have Angie Cronenberg, chief advocate and general counsel at Encompass. Encompass is the Internet and Competitive Networks Association based in Washington, D.C. We have Scott Hannah, chief revenue officer at Cumulus Data Centers. We have Danielle Rossi, global director, mission critical cooling at train commercial, and we have Rebecca Gilstrap, strategic strategy director at Adler Grand North America with their data power and control division. Thank you, everybody. And let's just dive right in here. And the first question for the panel will be in what forms has data, excuse me, in what forms has sustainability manifested in the infrastructure world over the last several years? We're starting with the context of where we've been. Where have we seen the most advancement? Let's let's let's go with Luke first, Luke. Absolutely. Thanks, Rob. So, you know, at powerhouse, we're a data center developer, not operating data centers, but designing and building them. So really focusing on the construction of data centers. One way that, you know, sustainability has really seen advancement is really making the projects more efficient, being able to use technology, you know, technologies like like BIM, being able to build the building virtually to be able to walk through it virtually, you know, it reduces a lot of waste on construction sites, we're able to build faster, we're able to build in a more sustainable way, you know, different technologies, even, you know, using drones to be able to map out a site and do a cut fill analysis to really make the sites as efficient as possible. So there's been some great technological advancements that are really being implemented nowadays that help us to build build faster and build with less resources in a more sustainable manner. Angie, what are you seeing? We're seeing massive investments right now, both by the public and the private sectors and broadband networks. And by that, I mean, all of the network, but the ISPs are building a lot more fiber going into the ground, the fibers just, it's more sustainable in terms of actually operating the fiber by the providers. In addition to that, it's more sustainable when they manufacture fiber and it's cheaper to operate. But in addition to that, we've seen with the data centers, right, lots of new opportunities to not only lower the operating costs related to the energy efficiencies, but new technology like liquid cooling that's really making a difference too in terms of environmental friendly ways to operate those data centers. And then one last thing I would just mention too, we see a lot of wholesale opportunities that are happening. So this basically means when you have large infrastructure, whether it's a data center or you have a fiber network, where you have others who are sharing in that, that actually makes the operation of the networks more sustainable, where you don't have multiple people like overbuilding each other. The same things because there's wholesale access to the networks. There's wholesale access to the data centers. That hyperscale kind of data computing power really makes a difference in terms of business operational costs, moving it from your local business to a hyperscale data center really can make a difference for the environment as well. Great. Scott, what are you guys seeing at Cumulus? Yeah, just by way of background, what Cumulus is building a data center campus directly connected to a nuclear power plant in northeast Pennsylvania. So but I think to answer the question in the last several years, I think everyone now has a stated carbon goal with regards to energy. I think there are companies that didn't have that even a couple of years ago. So it's super important for them. Now how we measure that is we'll get further on into discussion, but you're seeing advancement in the ESG role in companies. I think that's developed significantly over the year over the last several years in terms of that prominence in an organization. And then the development and renewables has been significant, which obviously we're all targeting. And the water usage, you know, discussion is also has been prevalent in the last in the last several years. All right, Danielle. Yeah, so I think from a broad perspective, the biggest over the last few years is the prioritization. So a lot of people, you know, over the past three or four years, I took Scott's point, been making goals and now they're starting to put actual numbers to the goals. And I've been in the industry long enough to remember when no one cared about sustainability and it was all about, I just want the lowest ticket item and I don't care what they, you know, what my PUE is and what's WUE, you know, these types of things are becoming commonplace conversation. And it's a priority now, as opposed to someone saying, oh, yeah, it's third on my prioritization list, as opposed now it's especially for the top, say the top 20 main, main distributors and suppliers are talking. It's one of their main focuses. Rebecca, what's the perspective from LeGrand? Yeah, so I think we're in an interesting perspective because we have, you know, such wonderful, intelligent PDUs that we have built a business off of. And when you look at the intelligence that's in the data center, we just see that continuing to grow. And so, you know, Danielle touched on it, Scott touched on it, Angie touched on it, you know, people are really starting to baseline what's going on in the data center. It's always happened from a PUE perspective of what's the energy efficiency from an operational perspective in the data center. But we've really made that shift now where it's saying, OK, I'm not doing this just because of operational efficiency. I'm doing this for those ESG reasons that Scott mentioned. And then, you know, to tackle onto what Angie was saying about, you know, when you segment out that data center market and look at, you know, who's focusing on this or how this is being implemented. I mean, they literally have, we have this transition. We've seen it go into COLO. We've seen it go into cloud. And there are studies that actually show that at scale, those providers are able to be more sustainable, to what, again, Angie said, than individuals trying to perform and host those services themselves. So there's some really good work out there, and we can share that. Right. In what parts of our digital ecosystem do we have the most work still to do in terms of sustainability? Where are we not where we want to be? Let's start with Luke. So, you know, just go back to Scott made a great point about, you know, companies setting, organizations setting carbon goals. You know, really, I think the most work is still having visibility into that. Not only at the goal, but at all your suppliers and your subcontractor suppliers. You know, trying to understand in the whole life cycle of these projects, of the material, of the developments. You know, a lot of companies are starting to do very good jobs of setting goals for themselves. It's how those goals carry down to the subcontractors and our other partners in the industry. You know, and really finding a good way to measure that and track that as we move forward. All right. Scott, how about you? Yeah, no, to Luke's point. I think energy is pretty defined now. I mean, we kind of know what carbon goes into energy. You know, wind, solar, nuclear, hydro are all great options. The reliability is the key to that. But, you know, I think you're seeing, you know, the energy industry decarbonizing their fleets, those types of things. But I think to Luke's point, you know, what's inside the data center? How's the data center constructed? How do we measure that? Because I think energy is kind of pretty self-explanatory. But, you know, what else is all in the data center and how do you measure all that? I think there's a lot of work to do. And I know there's a lot of great work being done. But how are we tracking it? How is that being brought about to the overall, you know, ESG and carbon picture? Danielle, any thoughts? Yeah, so to both of your points, that there's a lot of voluntary disclosures happening, right? So globally, you've got CDP that they are putting out scores for who's, you know, getting their voluntary disclosures. I think it was something like 13,000 last year and 19,000 this year. It's a huge increase of amount of people are doing that now. And that's fantastic. And we can start noticing what companies are actually doing with numbers. But to Luke's point, now we can start saying, my company is going to do business with your company. What's your score? And what, you know, what are you doing to help us help everything else? So it's, we can actually call each other accountable now. I think that's a big part. Rebecca? Yeah, I mean, everybody, you know, has mentioned the piece about energy and energy consumption has been such a big I would say KPI that we've tracked, right? That PUE piece and the efficiency that was running through it. And, you know, when I think about it, I see we have these large corporate goals that are made, right? And whether it's from an investor perspective or because of the consumers that some of these companies are servicing, right? The feel good aspects, the do good aspects, the CSR, the corporate social responsibility aspects of why they're making those higher arching commitments. I think that there's an opportunity for us as individuals, right? As thought leaders in the organization, as thought leaders within the data center industry, you need to make those personal commitments of how to integrate KPIs even into our daily work or how we're personally managing our team so that we can contribute to those sustainability goals, right? So it's, I feel like there's a bridge that has to happen between those corporate statements, right? That go out on press releases and, you know, our big claims that are going to change, right? They're gonna change and move the industry. But as individuals, we can marry up to that. Looking at things like lighting within the data center or looking at even go servers, right? There's really simple things that you just, you have energy being wasted or you have different aspects of sustainability which people have touched on, which is transparency, right? Transparency of how things are made, transparency of what is actually in those products and then how that trickles down into the actual, the compute, right? So people talked about carbon, but really figuring out what's the carbon footprint for that compute and consumption that we're all using. Great, that gives an idea of what we need to do. In the third question is in 2023, what kinds of initiatives do you expect us to actually be working on? What do you expect people to be talking about and doing? Let's start with Danielle. So 2023, I think 2023 and 24 are gonna be a really big jump for the industry. There's a lot of things going on to move the dial. And for me, it's three main things, right? It's the, I mean, you mentioned CDP, right? So people reporting voluntary reporting disclosures that's, I think it's pressure. I think it's industry pressure, right? From competitors and people saying, hey, we're doing this and you're saying the bar. Then there's legal requirements. So you've got the legal Montreal protocols and the changes that are happening. So like the next GWP change for refrigerant is in January of 24. And then you've got the legal benefits, so legal requirements, legal benefits. So in the United States, you've got ITC, so the investment tax credit from the IRA and other versions of that where you're getting money back for using renewable energies. And those projects have to be completed by 2024 as well. So those are, you know, a big driver. And then new technologies. Angie mentioned before immersion cooling. That wasn't a huge thing until recently. I mean, my background's cooling. And in general, people have been talking about this for 15, 20 years. No one's really considered it until it's been necessary. And now we have these high power chips that we're using and they only can be cooled with liquid. So they're having conversations about, okay, I can use liquid, it's decreased footprint. It's less real estate I have to buy. You can have heat reuse, which they're already using in Europe really regularly, but we're just starting to hit the tip of the market here in the United States. There's a lot of things that are gonna be able to come from these types of more efficient types of technologies, but it's all coming to a head around the same time. So I think those are the big things that are gonna be happening the next year too. Great. Angie, what are your thoughts on what we're gonna see next year? She covered a lot on the data center side. So I'll cover a little bit on the network side in terms of how it is that customers, you know, are using the data centers through their internet connections. In the US, we still have a number of residential and business customers that are on copper or coax fiber that are all you have copper in them with massive investments now being made on the fiber side to try to get fiber to more end user locations. And we, as I mentioned, it's not just the private sector making these investments now, it's also now the public sector and the policymakers in Washington are really impressing upon the industry to prioritize as much as possible fiber where it's efficient in terms and capable of building out because the long-term investment needs in the US such that fiber is cheaper to operate, it is more environmentally sustainable. So what I suspect is gonna be happening and we're beginning to see the shift already, more customers as fiber becomes available to them, they're gonna move from their copper, coax based services over to fiber. So you're gonna see improvement. And the benefit to data centers too for that is, fiber can just carry a lot more traffic, cares a lot more data. So there's a lot of opportunity where customers maybe weren't doing as much in terms of cloud computing and using the internet applications and services that rely on the data centers, we're gonna see more of that happening. And so just a more opportunity for that usage, which is again, just that ecosystem and needing to improve the environmental sustainability of data centers. So it's like all of this happening at the same time, I think ultimately means that there's gonna be more opportunity in the marketplace for data centers, more data centers are gonna need to be built, that you need to be more environmentally sustainable at the same time, the networks are improving to be more environmentally sustainable as well. Luke? So what we're seeing is a lot of the sustainability metrics and goals are driven by the hyperscalers, right? They're the ones that have had the ability in the capital to be able to make this a priority when maybe some of a retail COLO player and enterprises, you know, more focused on redundancy, reliability, cost, earlier on. So, you know, one thing that we're really seeing is that that's really starting to trickle down. So that's no longer just a priority for, you know, for the seven or eight big guys that's really trickling down to the wholesale, the retail COLO providers to enterprise providers. And it's great. It's helping the industry as a whole. The hyperscalers have allowed to put capital in so we can develop more technologies like immersion cooling and, you know, use outdoor air without using chemical cooling. There's a lot of great ideas out there that have driven that by that, a lot of great technologies. And so I see a lot of that really starting to trickle down to some of the users who that necessarily wasn't one of their main goals, but it's quickly becoming one. Okay. Rebecca? Surprise. So sorry. So, you know, especially what Luke is saying about the hyperscalers and the opportunity, you know, they're really, they're pushing the industry forward. And I think that that's a really great thing. And because of the commitments that they've made, they made them very strongly, boldly. They've put them out there, they're public. But what we're seeing is an effect where people are actually able to take advantage of them, right? So if you're using those cloud platforms if you colos are even doing this, where people are, if you look at like the top reasons while why someone is selecting a specific co-location site, you know, you've gone from availability as a given, like you were up, uptime and availability, that has to be happening, right? And then you're looking at, you know, security. And now sustainability is finally making it into those top rankings of vendor selection, right? So for that compute, I want to be able to have sustainable compute. And then that ties back to your own corporate mandates and ESGs, right? So as a department, and this kind of goes back to what I was saying before, is that as a department, you are able to do that funnel up of saying, hey, how we're processing this, how we're doing this, you know, through and through our business is sustainable. And so I think it's the tools to be able to do that. It's the transparency needed to be able to show that and people are going to ask for it more and more. I think we're just going to see more demand. Demand's not going down in any sector for compute, right? We're just going to continue to see more. And I think the technologies that are out there that are starting to emerge into the data center are starting to emerge into the network, like the automation, the artificial intelligence, looking at, you know, security blockchain, they actually use more compute and what's behind the compute, right? It's all that IT infrastructure. So we're just, we're going to have to continue to use smarter technologies, monitor, you know, how we're doing it and again, show how we're improving on those baselines. Scott, what initiatives do you see coming up this year? Yeah, all great points, you know, by the panel here. I think, you know, to Danielle's point, I think you're going to see moving from voluntary tracking to mandatory tracking at some point in time where we're going to have to have a grading system, a tiering system to track all this stuff. But the one thing that people haven't really talked about is the advanced, you know, the use of nuclear power. And obviously that's near and dear to me, but you know, we're looking at trying to make renewables or carbon-free power sources 24 seven, which we was a requirement, it's a table stake for a data center, obviously. So you're seeing a lot of interest in that. You're seeing a lot of talk about SMRs, you know, small modular reactors, which are a little bit ways away, but you know, utilizing our current nuclear fleet, you know, the White House and France just got together on advancing the nuclear power discussions to use that because it's 100% carbon-free. And it's going to have to be used in order if we're going to meet the demands of the data center industry. Right. Are the public and private sectors working together effectively right now when it comes to driving these kinds of sustainable infrastructure goals? What does that dynamic look like and how does it affect the industry? Angie? Yeah, I'll just start off by saying that, you know, there's a lot of attention paid to these issues in the public sector investment, the Infrastructure and Jobs Act, which was a bipartisan piece of legislation that was passed in Congress and signed by the president last November is an implementation phase. I know some of you may be focused on some of the environmental specific pieces of the legislation. We've been very involved on the broadband network side of that with our network companies. And what we see there is not only, you know, a commitment by Congress to spending over $60 billion for the building of broadband and making sure that people can afford it in their homes, but also wanting to see that that network capacity is sustainable by really impressing upon the policymakers to choose more fiber connectivity and fiber, you know, is used for really all technologies. Ultimately, mobile wireless relies on it, but a lot of the responsibility is at the state and local level. So the grants that'll get really doled out to broadband providers to build to unserved and underserved Americans and businesses will be based upon state policymakers and decisions. So it's gonna be just a really critical time for those of you who are on the ground working on these issues every day to also marry these issues in a way to really educate the state policymakers who are making these decisions about the importance of the networks, you know, being able to be used for a long-term basis and also being sustainable. And then we see that, you know, there's a lot of opportunities still be just because the way the process is rolling out and the timing of it, the states are working on their broadband plans right now and now's a good time to be talking to them. So if you're not already doing that, but in addition to that, you know, we think that we're gonna have a really good sense of how much each state is gonna get in terms of connectivity money by next summer and then they're gonna begin their grant process. So there's not a lot of time, but there's a little bit of time. And so I just wanted to pass that along to this audience who I know really cares about these issues. Great, Scott, any thoughts? Yeah, I think, you know, like Angie said, there's a lot going on, you know, with these private public partnerships. So, you know, she talked about one of the, you know, one of the, you know, the IRA and part of that is this production tax credit for development of renewables. It also applies to nuclear, et cetera, in terms of, you know, the government basically helping develop those types of technologies and making it viable. So I think you're seeing that. I think there's probably gonna down the road. There's a couple of organizations that are becoming more prevalent who's a UN global compact. And so I think that's the center for climate and energy. And so there's a couple of things out there. I think you're gonna see more of that in the future though. Hey, Rebecca? I would just, yeah, I'll jump in there in that I do see it as an opportunity, you know, for the industry. I mean, we have a question in the chat about, you know, the definition of data center and what we're talking about data center. Yeah, you know, when I'm talking about it, I'm talking about all data centers. So I am going from top down your largest hyperscale, you know, data centers and cloud providers all the way down to cell towers. And even thinking about cell towers is just mini data centers and edge sites because if you think about it, you have immense power at even in those edge sites to make a difference. And especially when you think about the aggregate of all of those sites. So again, whether it's cell towers or whether it's a retail store, you're going to continue to see compute happening out in those edge sites. And so you really need to think about what is the aggregate compute impact that you have, right? And the sustainability measures that you're gonna be able to take. Again, regardless of whether it's a hyperscale or whether it's your co-location provider or your disaster recovery site or you know, it's your enterprise, it doesn't matter. You can make those sustainability steps either way. And then I wanted to jump on, you know, what Angie was saying, I mean, she's talking about digital inequality and inequity that's happening in America. And so we talk about sustainability is a big piece of corporate social responsibility. And there are other things that are happening that she's alluding to around that digital inequality. And I think that that's a bigger thing that the industry can tackle of how do we get compute into more people's hands and how do we get compute into people that are disadvantaged and don't have the means or don't have the resources or quite frankly, don't even have the fiber in their backyard, you know, to be able to access this ecosystem and all these, you know, right? What all these wonderful data centers are supporting. So Angie, it's really awesome to hear you talking about it. It's really here, awesome to hear about the work that's happening between the public and the private sectors on the broadband side. And then I can add in from a data center perspective that it's, I think we're gonna start impacting even more. So you think about site selection, you think about cities actually regulating how much power a data center can have. I mean, you're starting to see trends where there's going to have to be better partnership. There's going to have to be better communication because if there isn't, you know, you're gonna inherit these regulations. And so again, I tap it back into its opportunity, you know, it's tons and tons of opportunity for there to be a better partnership between the public and private sectors. We have to, we have to. One of the things that, you know, we do here in Washington is educate policymakers about what industry is doing. And so I really, I couldn't emphasize more, Rebecca, the point that you're making that the companies that you all are representing and in the audience, it is really, really key to be engaging with the policymakers really at all levels, federal, state and local, so that they understand, you know, what it is that you're already doing and then how it is that this industry really can improve overall, right? The carbon footprint and improve the health of our globe because it really does relieve, you know, as many of the issues, right? That we traditionally have had as a nation and as a globe where we've had people with long commutes, we've had people not being able to connect with one another except doing so in person. Now the broadband connectivity really can meet a lot of needs along with the data center compute power, right? So that's, it's, we are at this tipping point, I think as a nation too, with all this investment that's happening where we're gonna see, you know, great strides and many of these issues. So it's, if you haven't already been engaging with policymakers, you might be behind a little bit, but there's time to catch up. Okay, this next question is what a personal one of mine really, because I get a lot of press out there that comes to me and everybody says they do sustainability well, right? Nobody says we do sustainability badly. So how do we distinguish instances of real progress when we're talking about creating sustainable infrastructure? How do we separate it from the hype, Luke? You know, this is a great question. Honestly, partly because I don't think the hype is bad. I think obviously we can go into greenwashing and how that negatively impacts things, but would much rather see companies set these lofty high goals and fail by a little bit, then, you know, set the bar very low for something they can easily achieve. So I know a lot of companies have come out with big claims about, you know, being water positive and, you know, negative emissions. And there's a lot of big claims out there. I don't think all of those are bad because it does help raise awareness and it does help raise the bar for other players. So I'll let everyone else talk on the rest of the question. But ultimately, I think the hype gets people talking and, you know, some of those type headlines, they get a lot of attention and they get a lot of exposure to the sustainability in the industry as well too. So honestly, I'd hype it up all they want. All right. Scott? To Luke's point, I think the hype is good because it gets everybody's attention in terms of, you know, this is something real, this is something we need to pay attention to. I, you know, I think it's kind of a tricky one because, you know, we talk about recs, you know, renewable energy credits and offsetting your carbon footprint. So, but it's challenging because, I mean, it's definitely, I mean, super important. We need to do that. We need further development of all this. But really, do we, how are we tracking the actual, you know, say electrons that come into the servers, right? Is it just offset or is it real? Is it something that's real? So again, it's tricky because, you know, like I know our companies and we're developing like 2.7 gigawatts of, you know, wind and solar across our fleet. But the, but it is tricky. Like, are we just going to offset the carbon to develop more renewables or are we really going to try to figure out, you know, the actual power that's serving the data center? So, and again, I don't want to call that hype at all. It's not, it's super, super important. But, you know, at some point we're going to have to get down to, and then that goes back to what we're all talking about too, in terms of tracking and reporting. How do you, you know, how do you take it from voluntary to mandatory and how what kind of standards are going to be put in place? Because we're all having these stated goals and I think it's great. And I think these bold goals are awesome and most companies will fulfill those. But it's really the proofs in the pudding and how it's done. Okay, Danielle? Yeah, I think exactly that. I mean, and if you talk about carbon offsets from a, not even just this industry, but there's also a lot of instances where people are just paying money to a third party fund and they're not actually doing carbon offsets if they're just saying they are. So, there's going to be an emperor's new clothes moment soon where people are going to start calling out on this where they didn't realize that they're just going through the motions and you can make these lofty goals. And I agree. I like that. I like them making these goals, but prove it. That's, I think that's going to start happening very soon and they're going to have to start putting numbers to it. And when they're putting fake numbers to it, to Scott's point earlier there, yeah, there's been voluntary disclosures, but very soon they'll probably be mandatory. That'll make it easier. Rebecca? Yeah. So you can look at it at a couple of different facets. One is from like a micro level is that it's as simple as even calling out HPDs and EPDs and looking at product declarations, right? And the documentation around how products are manufactured and what is in those products. So I think in your sourcing, you know, whether it's through a sourcing department, whether it's you as an individual, you have the opportunity to ask for in your submittals, you know, products, right? That have that documentation and have those certifications to prove, right? That they are actually good sustainable products and are made in sustainable ways. The other thing is I think you can look at it in who you're doing business with and look at the companies and their ESGs and what are the steps that they are taking from a sustainability perspective, right? And what are those KPIs look like? How are they progressing along them? Especially if they're a public company, a lot of that information is now being shared within their shareholder meetings, right? And they're quarterly earning statements. They are, it's making it to those financial calls about the steps that they are taking and how they are progressing. So I think it's looking at who you're doing business with and making sure that they really are enacting on that. And then I think, you know, the other pieces within your own design, right? Like are you taking the steps, even site selection? Are you looking at areas where you have more renewable energy available, you know, to power, right? Is it real versus buying those offset credits? So literally something as simple as site selection, we've looked at it for, again, uptime and cost of power and these other factors before, you know, but now we need to add on that piece of sustainability, which again can impact it from a macro level. All right. So we're running toward the end here, but what specifically, yes. Robert, real quick, there's a question here that might answer on this question. Does ESG receive any attention from chief risk officers? And, you know, we talk about hype and what's real and what's not. I can just speak from our company standpoint. We, our ESG, head of ESG is actually our chief risk officer. So you're getting more attention on that. I can't speak to other organizations, but I thought I saw that in there that might, you know, I think, I think as risk gets involved with ESG, you're going to change the hype from reality because that's, you know, that kind of gets down to the level of importance in a company. Right. I think a lot of that too, really quick, just on the ESG thing that we're having conversations about ESG with people and people forget that a huge part of ESG is trying to track and audit your existing equipment. So a ton of times you'll find, you know, old products, things that are, you know, end of life and things you wouldn't have normally found that we're trying to replace them and get the most sustainable option, but in reality, it's an availability issue too. So that would, that's a huge risk mitigating factor as well. All right. All right. What specific improvement would each of you most like to see in 2023 and how we approach a sustainable infrastructure? Luke, you first. So, you know, I'd really like to see an increase in, you know, collaboration between a lot of the professionals in the data center industry. You know, there's some great groups out there. I think there's a question in the chat about, you know, iMason's climate accord. So there's some groups that are doing amazing things, but ultimately we're all trying to solve a lot of the same problems. And, you know, we're all under 100 NDAs and every hyperscaler and every colo, you know, they think they have a special sauce and designs aren't shared and solutions to problems aren't shared. So I'd really like to see, especially when it comes to sustainability, you know, more groups, more discussions like this, more groups like the iMason's, where, you know, the actual designers, you know, we can get to the real, the best solutions for problems, whether, you know, on the design, the construction, the operations, you know, and even taking data centers out of, you know, decommissioning data centers. So it really be, I think helpful that the industry as a whole, that if we have more open communications about how we're all handling the same issues across the board. All right. Angie, what would you most like to see? So on the network side, I talked about the massive investments that are being made across the board, right? So, but there's a customer issue. And we see this where customers don't want to transition over into the technologies that are much more energy efficient, because oftentimes it does mean they need to purchase like new equipment to handle their services, either at their business or in their home. So what I think our side of the industry sometimes doesn't fully appreciate is how to make the pitch to customers about the long-term savings and the long-term benefits that can happen, as well as the immediate benefits in terms of being able to access so much more content and to be able to do so many more things. And tying that back to the topic at hand that we're talking about today is how do we do this in a way that's much more sustainable? So being around the broadband industry for my entire career, you haven't really heard as much of a pitch about this to help people understand this is really about making sure that we're doing what we need to do to save our earth. And so that there's a place here long-term for humans to exist. And so I think, you know, as Rebecca had mentioned we talk a lot about the inequities, right? But those inequities tied to so much of a bigger picture and we need to do a better job of that as well as we're explaining to the customer there's now a better technology for you. You need to move off of DSL which is based on copper and move over to fiber, right? We've now built this fiber we've made a big investment to you. So we've got to do a better job of like telling the whole story and this is a part of the story. And that's on us. It really is. Rebecca, what would you most like to see? If I had to boil it down to one thing I think it's the water usage effectiveness is I think it's gonna be a big I think it's gonna be a big change for individuals and I think it's a necessary one we've been so focused around energy, energy conservation, renewables and the bottom line is water is a precious resource and we need to be protecting it and I think we need to be measuring it and more aware of the fact that there's a lot of water that is used within the data center. So I think that's gonna be a trend and also it's something that I think is important. Scott, what do you want to see? Two things I think to Luke's point further collaboration with the whole supply chain the whole industry. Yeah, iMasons is doing a phenomenal job. I think 170 companies join the climate accord and they're doing really great work in terms of how we're measuring all the different aspects of data centers which that needs to continue and I think it will. But then the other thing I'd like to see is continue development in 24 by seven reliable power so with carbon free power. So how do we take renewables into something that can be reliable 24 seven? How do we further develop nuclear? We've got a lot of assets out there and most data centers have some kind of nuclear power powering them through the grid but how do we develop that further so we can actually and how do we continue to decarbonize the coal fleets, et cetera. So that's further development in terms of mine. Those are the two that I'd like to see. Danielle, you get the last word. What do you do most like to see? Embrace new technology. So there's a lot of stuff that isn't necessarily even new technology that are just becoming more readily available and but there are things outside the box to Scott's point. I mean micro grids and trying to have a better handle on where we're getting our power and think of other ways, you know, and then from cooling, radiative cooling and some other options that are becoming new. Just think outside the box and there's definitely some new things coming and I think that that's a better way to look at the future going forward. Great, that's great. Thank you to all of you for taking the time to have this conversation here and I'm gonna turn it back over to Dean. Dean, you still there? I am indeed, Rob, a great conversation. As these, a lot of times these go, it's like the quickest 45 minutes of the day, right? I feel like we probably could have continued all afternoon. Unfortunately, that is it for us on the time. So a huge thank you to you, of course, Rob and to our speakers for today's insights on the infrastructure and sustainability predictions for 2023. If you enjoyed today's discussion, we invite you to tune in next week for a two day live, that's correct, a two day live broadcast, not two full days. Two day live broadcast on December 14th and 15th on jsa.net and JSA's social media channels where JSA media consultant, Jau Marquez Lima will host a series of one-on-one interviews with thought leaders in the digital infrastructure space from across the EU. So that's gonna be some really cool stuff going on on the 14th and 15th of, which is just next week, right? These one-on-one discussions will offer additional industry insights and 2023 predictions. For the interview lineup, time to visit jsa.net or JSA's LinkedIn page. And finally for viewers, if you were one of the first 100 registrants for today's virtual round table, we hope that you enjoyed your lunch. Make sure to visit us at jsa.net to register for more upcoming JSA virtual round tables. Our next one takes place on January, that's right. It's going to be January 26th, that's 2023 at 1 p.m. Eastern where we will discuss achieving net zero, kind of continuing this conversation. We're gonna be discussing achieving net zero carbon emissions by 2030, tackling the key partnerships and technology to meet the goal. So lots going on with JSA TV and JSA podcast, but I think that's a wrap. We look forward to getting the playback out to you of today's round table very, very shortly. And you can see that on JSA TV and JSA podcast on YouTube, iTunes, iHeart, Spotify, and other streaming mediums. In the meantime, see you back in the networking lounge. That's right, we've got a couple of minutes here. Please join us in the networking lounge right after this ends. And I think that's it. Happy holidays and happy networking.