 Hello everyone Hello Your background, I think totally wins Tracy. It's my favorite sci-fi The expanse the expanse is great. I was a bit struggling after the first season the end of the first season But yeah, I think it's it's definitely one of the most interesting ones Like all of the the politics and stuff around it between all of the kind of reminds me of there's a really good I think it's called the left the left hand side of darkness or the left side of darkness. It's a really awesome sci-fi it has a lot of about the different the different like planets and The politics of it all and that's a piece of artwork that That I have behind me of the taiko station. I would love to have that in my house It's beautiful so I'm still posting in here the link today for the agenda as You already have some people here. I'll sit later on again for the co-chair and tech lead voting Embassy submission deadline ended on Friday. I Just have to wait for Amy to get back from her well-deserved vacation Which will be end of this week. So that's why I did not start with the voting process. I want her Support there and yes, I could have asked her During the during her time off, but I'm definitely not doing this to anybody. So I decided if people take time off I know that they're reading That's like so not even posting to them. So I hope everybody understands this and then we start with the official voting process So that's the reason why didn't kick off immediately this week. So I Think it's important to honor be honor people's time off work But we'll definitely get this done before cube console. Yeah, it's a lot of new people today. That's that's actually amazing Okay, so let's give some people Chairs over here on cross planes at Jared. I was a posted some feedback already on the levy diligence document great work by the way Yeah, thank you. I saw that the feedback come in overnight here, and I'm definitely grateful for you spending some time to look through events Thanks for making time for that Yeah, we we try to like work through those as much as possible Also in my comments, I think the only critical piece for moving this in the time frame that you want to do is really Think agreeing on the end user interviews. This usually takes some some time And some coordination, but if they all year you can get started on these Uh, I think the better Yeah, absolutely. I can I can facilitate making that happen. Would that would that be with like you and harry? Uh Is there a second? tuc member, um But they will obviously decide who to Who to pick it might be conalia in this case Who's going to join but harry Having harry on there. I think they can definitely have to get these scheduled Awesome cool. I'll definitely facilitate making that happen From from experience This is usually what takes the longest because it needs a lot of people to be coordinated across time zones right, um and uh Good We are still some people joining usually we wait until five minutes after the hour to get started So so while we is while we are getting started here If you are new and some of you are actually new to this group and want to quickly introduce yourself Feel free to do so while we are waiting. So we have we want to have more minutes to go So feel free to just briefly introduce yourself to the group Yeah, I can go. Um, I think we've spoken a little, uh on the air. Yeah But my name is alex so i'm currently working at jp morgan transferring somewhere else in a few weeks but the app delivery group Is extremely interesting to me specifically around some of the the challenges and opportunities that we see in infrastructure and application space I've been working a little bit with jennifer and thomas to uh to put some ideas together I'm looking forward to looking forward to contributing a bit further And i'm uh, tracy reagan. I am on the board of the cd foundation We have an initiative to do more cross pollination between the cdf and the cncf I'm also the community director for the ortelius microservice management platform I'm the ceo of Deploy hub Yeah, I can I can introduce myself I'm hong chow dan i'm from alibaba like i'm not new actually I participate in the sick Since the beginning but then like i'm i'm i'm a colleague of uh, harry So, yeah, so I also like participate in a lot of open source project because that's what our team do. I also like Uh, contribute to boss playing and kuban. I'm also kuban as well So, yeah, also working on the foundation And I know that I still owe you a reply was just like super busy until kuban So expect a reply from me the next one to the ace as well Yeah, I think harry also like asked me to help apply more input as well. So we are all together Looking on the sides I'm also new so just introducing myself. My name is an ace I'm currently developer evangelist at codefresh, but I'm also Similar boat to alex. I'm also transitioning somewhere else right now. Um Yeah, I'm also an cnc of ambassadors are just looking into different calls and You were actually super famous kubernetes 100 100 days That's yeah, I mean if there's something that I can like collaborate on and help with and Also share in my youtube videos. That would be amazing. So just yeah It's basically for those who who haven't Come across it, which I guess are more people as it's a challenge that I set myself out to do when I got started in the space Which is like learning kubernetes across 100 days and just showing people how they could Follow a similar path. I guess Uh, and my name is robert and I'm uh, I'm trying to be more active in these kind of groups So this is one of the the things that I thought kind of fitted my working I guess my more work obvious I'm a cloud architect the problem and crayon in norway And I'm currently working at in the get hops working group as well So trying to do a little bit of everything, but Just trying to be more active Hey folks, my name is dan And I work on cross plan. I'm a maintainer of cross plans. I'm here for jared's presentation of our incubation proposal today I'm also a tech lead of kubernetes sigilis Very cool. I think they have a lot of new people. By the way, there's also a post the link also the doc on For the the meeting notes, which we try to keep there. Um looking at the time I want to give everybody a fair chance to Uh Speak today and we want to start off with the cross plane incubation project, which is uh, pretty exciting A pretty exciting project. I think it has also a great logo. By the way, whoever came up with that logo I'm a big fan of it. So I'll just pass it over to jared. Do you want to Present. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I'll take it here. Thank you so much for for uh, Letting us come and speak today and get a get an audience with sig here Definitely appreciate that and we hear that all the time about the logo as well too that people people love the little popsicle When imagery around that so I'll pass that along to chris the designer He likes he likes hearing that Right, so let me get this presentation going up on the screen here In the agenda doc, uh, there is also, um the links to this presentation, uh, and also I think the, um The upstream proposal is well too and the due diligence documents That's all linked from the agenda document so you can uh play along at home with all three of those there Let's dive into this. Um, so my name is jared walks. I am a co-creator and a current maintainer of the cross plane project Um, we are going to kind of dive into our proposal to move to the incubation phase here It could be about 10 minutes or less So we'll try to get through this quickly and give everyone else time today to talk to Are you seeing the screen too by the way? You're seeing the slides Cool, so, uh, let's talk about cross plane. Uh, maybe a bit of a refresher for some folks in the audience here Um, but basically it's an open source kubernetes add-on that focuses in two main feature areas Uh, the first one is around allowing Infrastructure owners or platform teams to create their own custom abstractions and sort of enable Their developer teams to be able to self-service and create the infrastructure that they need on demand Um cross plane has a kind of a broad surface area across a lot of vendors clouds environments, etc So, uh, we also have created a um a consistent api across all those environments as well too So we'll go into more details on both of those But that's sort of the two main high level feature areas or focus areas of the cross plane project in its charter Um, we first open sourced it back in december of 2018 so just over two years ago And uh, we are also the creators of the rook project is well, too Which is a fully graduated cncf project So super happy to see the progress and adoption on that project also and you know taking cross plane through the same sort of maturity growth as well too We first got into the sandbox uh last year june of last year So it's been about nine months in sandbox entry and um, we had our first 1.0 You know major stable milestone release, uh just a few months ago. So let's dive into some more details here So let's first talk about you know, what do we mean when we're talking about platform apis and custom abstractions and all that So basically the idea here is the core concept of cross plane Is that we enable you to assemble or bring together low level granular resources? That could be from multiple clouds multiple vendors multiple environments And then you can expose those low level resources as a higher level of abstraction You know a self service api that your developers can use to get the infrastructure that they need a good example of this is around Composing these low level resources of a gke node pool network, etc. Maybe some helm charts as well, too like for platform services like uh, you know fluent d or jager or things like that And then taking those low level resources low level resources and then offering them as a simple higher level abstraction So that your developers can just interact with a simple cluster object as opposed to all of this, uh, you know complexity in details of the Infrastructure underneath and then with that, you know below that api line below that abstraction You can put you know all sorts of your policy organizational policy specific configuration And the developer just gets a simple, uh api to deal with or you know a limited amount of configuration that you're letting them You're letting them touch. This is all done with the kubernetes api So everything here is going to be you know a kubernetes object That you can interact with basically anything that speaks the kubernetes api So a lot of the existing tools in the ecosystem are very compatible with uh with crosslink because of that approach And finally here it's uh, it's all declarative So you don't need to write any code to build your own custom platform. You basically describe it and declare it You know in a declarative way So let's visualize that because that's maybe kind of hard to kind of rock just by talking about it Let's go left to right on this diagram here So on the left of the diagram, we've got our application developers And what they're going to interact with is a simple cluster object Uh, that might have a couple configuration settings such as the number of nodes They want in their cluster or maybe the size of the nodes like small medium or large They get a very simple abstraction or interface to deal with there underneath the covers Behind the api line here what we're going to see is a set of compositions that bring together all those lower level resources So we have an example here in AWS for a cluster You might have eks and then vpc and all of its friends and then for gcp You're going to have gke network subnet that set out all those So the example we're showing here is that a simple cluster object can be you know, something in AWS It can mean something else in gcp But um, that's you know, one example of multi cloud sort of thing It could also be all within one cloud as well too You could have a composition for like a fast and a slow instance or an expensive and a cheap instance or gold and silver or whatever Um, you know, you can have multiple compositions that satisfy This simple abstraction at a higher level Um the so the low level granular resources are probably exactly what you think they'd be Um, they're basically, you know cloud services on premises infrastructure All sorts of stuff could be represented as a crd in Kubernetes So extend the control plane with the knowledge of new types and things outside of the control plane So for instance, uh amazon's relational database service rds There is a crd in crossplane that represents the rds service The user can you know configure all the different settings on rds They want to you know interact with the low level resource there There's a controller in the Kubernetes control plane that's watching for changes to that rds crd And then it's calling out to amazon's apis to you know Makes to basically make the actual states in amazon match the desired state that's on the crd And so these are the low level resources that we you know can compose together to form higher level abstractions on top But they're probably exactly as you would have guessed their crds and controllers So let's talk a little bit more about the the crossplane resource model as well too So, you know as we've seen that the crossplane extends the Kubernetes control plane with a whole bunch of different Providers environments vendors types, etc And so we quickly realized too that it would be very useful to have a consistent API or a standardized way to interact with all these different types of resources The you know crossplane supports so, um, you know, basically You can think of the crossplane resource model or xRM as we call it As an extension of the kubernetes resource model It adds some opinions to the the kubernetes resource model and basically with the intent of Providing a consistent management experience and api across all these different vendors You know what you end up with is that all the objects You know for amazon rds or google cloud sequel or whatever it may be or even abstractions and compositions on top of those They're all going to have a similar shape and behavior to them So for instance things like cross resource references like one reference or sorry one resource Depending on a field and another reference Sorry, another resource that's all going to be you know very consistent across all the different vendors and clouds You know status conditions are going to be fairly similar the way you do Credentials and get connection information to connect through resources like databases caches clusters, etc You know, there's a lot of different ways that we've made some commonality and sort of Consistent api across all these different resources and abstractions, etc I'm kind of making some more sense of it and have a reasonable way to deal with all of them in a consistent manner Let's talk about what we've done since sandbox. So that was about nine months ago Um, and so as I mentioned, we had our 1.0 release That was probably the biggest thing that happened in the last nine months is that you know, we have with the 1.0 Release we've declared the core apis to be stable and that the project is ready for production usage in response to that We've seen uh end user adoption increase and people start taking it into production as well too now that the project has reached The certain amount of stability and you know backwards compatibility and things like that In addition to that something that I even find myself to be more exciting Is that the non-trivial contributions we're getting from the greater community have picked up as well too So that people are deploying it to production They're you know having a use case that they think is important to them And then they it basically will implement that upstream for the benefit of the greater community So seeing those non-trivial contributions come in from from, you know outside of the core maintainer set is It's been really really exciting. Um, you know, we're also working with A lot of partners in the ecosystem and doing a lot of collaborations with various CNCF projects as well too. I've got a whole bunch of different links here for each one of those that you can You know click through and learn more about I might want to give a quick shout out there to dan on the call that yeah You know, he's been doing a live stream show that basically, you know Every couple weeks does an integration with another cntf project about how we can you know open policy agent falco, etc So that's been really cool to see ways that crossplane is compatible with or can work alongside other projects in the ecosystem It's a lot of cool links there Another another thing here is our package. We have a package manager We did a v2 of that where basically say you have a You know a bunch of platform apis you've designed and they have dependencies on maybe provider AWS provider gcp Provider alibaba and so you can basically declare. Hey, this platform api needs these providers and we'll handle those dependencies for you We'll fulfill them and make sure they're installed Um and available for you and then we can do upgrades and rollbacks and stuff as well too So that's been really nice for the maturity to be able to you know version and it iterates on the Providers and things that are installed in your crossplane clusters And then finally we did a really successful community day event alongside of our 1.0 release And we had a really awesome speaker line up there with some of the creators of kubernetes as well too So that was really fun to see the community get together and have some really awesome Time that we all spent together there Um, so let's talk about a couple stats real quick so as I mentioned sandbox entry was nine months ago and a lot of stats have increased by like 50 Since then some of them are even further like container downloads We're seeing a 10x increase in and then also our slack members have increased 2.5x the that's where we could Congregate mostly is in slack and we collaborate with the community pretty heavily there in addition to github So it's nice to see more people coming in there asking questions answering questions as well too and kind of participating together in that community there Uh, and then uh getting close to wrapping this up Let's talk about some of the partners and adopters. Um, those are kind of outlined in more detail in the due diligence and the upstream proposal Um, but someone kind of want to highlight here about quick is the is toichiban They've you know adopted cross plane into production And I find it I find them interesting because you know, they're the largest railway operator in europe So seeing an enterprise of that size kind of take cross man is production has been really pretty pretty impressive Accenture has been a huge help to them. Uh, kind of, you know, guiding them and helping them get get that all deployed and and find success with cross plane and there's also been a huge, um, you know source of feedback and You know collaboration to the contributions to the project as well too So that's that's been great cloud checkers kind of interesting I think too because they're uh, what they're basically doing is they're replacing their terraform usage with cross plane They're buying in and they're adopting, uh, this you know a control plane approach as opposed to a single one-off You know infrastructure as code tool execution. They you know, they're buying into having a control plane manage all their resources instead Um, so I think that's interesting and the last one is mothership is interesting too because Not only are they, you know building platforms custom platforms for their developers and you know being able to provision Infrastructure, but they're also extending cross plane and writing new controllers to do day two operations So kind of ongoing operational tasks are being implemented by them as well too, which is kind of it is pretty interesting I'm happy to see that Um, so final slide here. The uh, it was links to all the resources for the project The upstream pr is 620 and the toc repo and there's a link to the due diligence documents as well too Starting to get some feedback on there and really appreciate that And then also some other you know general projects resources there that you can peruse as well too Um, so I think that's all the resources there all my spiel Thank you super super much for listening and um, you know, I don't know if we have a lot of time for questions today with the agenda but I'm always available to you know, if you ask questions on the due diligence documents or the Proposal 620 upstream We're happy to engage and get everyone's questions answered. Make sure that everyone's everyone's getting the information that they need So thank you very much. Appreciate it Yeah, thank you for presenting. Obviously, we open it up for questions So we do have some time for question looking at least five minutes So I definitely want to open it up for people that can ask some questions Okay, if nobody starts and I started with a question and I was actually having been looking at cross-plane first of all I think it's a great project I think it's really helping to model these resources and it's a very interesting use case of kubernetes for Like really using that kubernetes api server and and operate upon modeling they wouldn't control a model My first question is how do you handle security? Um, I mean, obviously you're giving developer the freedom to create crds which might on behind the scenes create a massive amount of of resources and something we've seen also Uh, we're looking at at resource modeling that they're usually the rights that you need to create the individual resources in the cloud Are kind of different from the rights that you need to create your own clusters So what's the the security model? How do model security and access control more access control actually than security? Yeah Yeah, great a great question And so that touches on something that's that's really a foundational concept in cross-plane is this whole idea about separation of concerns And so there's kind of I didn't really get into it too much But there's kind of multiple uh personas that are going to be interacting with cross-plane on different sides of the api line Let's say so your infrastructure owners your platform team You know, they will have full access uh to you know Define these platform apis to assemble resources together to express policy all that sort of stuff So, you know, that's they have that's one persona that has you know, a certain high level of access And then with the abstractions that you build on top of that, uh, you know Those are intended to be consumed by lower level, you know lower privilege Application teams and they're very focused. They're scoped so you can do, uh, you know Kubernetes are back To all of those resources. So for instance, it's cluster object You know, you can grant access to that and only that object to your developers Um, and so they can interact with these specific configuration on that object But they have no access to the underlying resources themselves to edit them or tweak them or to skirt your policy or anything like that So the separation of concerns is uh, you know pretty major architectural aspect of the cross-plane uh design The kind of you know helps separate out who gets access to what? um Something that's also fairly interesting too that you know access is granted on the abstraction and not to the underlying resources specifically Is that um, you know, you can programmatically determine like what are the iam roles that you would need in a cloud provider in order to be able to do or uh, you know operate on all the types that are going to be underneath the lower level resources You can kind of make sure that you know, you have a good understanding of those you can lock that down Etc, but the separation of concerns thing is is really really important concept for the security model Um, and Dan, do you have anything that you would want to add to that to kind of fletch out the thought a little bit more? No, I think that was a pretty good covering of the offering. I will say that's uh, definitely a big proponent of cross-plane Compared to something like infrastructure as code tools Where your level of abstraction your permissioning does not match that I also would point to some of the resources on the cross-plane blog We have some kind of like compare and contrast with uh additional models or traditional models of infrastructure abstraction Yeah, thank you because I think that that's one of the key points for something like this to work Because obviously you need like very different rules for like lower level resources than for the high level concepts Um, I think that that that would be well worth if you if you could maybe also add it I mean, it's not necessarily part of the due diligence document But I think it's an important resource to have somewhere, especially how you handle um This type of access control because like one of the work streams in sick app delivery always was okay How we can we provide kind of like higher level primitives for people to work with? Um, and where you say well, it's not just about health charts There are some especially when it comes to access control it starts to get a bit more complex and just pure composability So I think that that's why it's also been interesting topic to to discuss um Another question a second question that I would have is um, obviously some of the cloud providers and you also mentioned it in the Due diligence document. They're kind of like building I wouldn't say like their own Controller versions um out to some extent that they do Uh, so so how far along are you that they would? And again, this shouldn't be like just one solution out there But how's your collaboration with them or do you have some joint plans that maybe x or m is a model that it's going to be adopted by multiple of them or Or like the major cloud providers for their resources as well Yeah, yeah, that's that's a really good question as well too And I took a note by the way too to update the due diligence document with the security model In access permissions and all that sort of stuff. So I'll I'll incorporate that into the dock. Um, yeah, so for so for, you know, the cloud provider apis and partnerships with them so basically, um, you know The concept of bringing external resources such as a cloud provider maintenance service Into the management's purview of the committee's control plane is is not a concept. It's exclusive to cross plane now Other the cloud providers are starting to do some of their own projects as well too. That's, you know, basically enable you to create crds for the You know resources that belong in their cloud, right? And so, uh, we actually have a pretty strong set of partnerships going with All the major cloud providers there aws is probably the one that's furthest along I think so aws has a the ack is the name of their project it's you know, uh, amazon's controllers for kubernetes and so, um, you know, we view those as kind of low-level resources that you can use to directly control the aws api aws api So we've partnered with aws and hooked into their code generation pipelines So that you know services in aws and generating code for the ack controllers are in the same process can be used to generate code for the cross plane For riders as well too. So I think there's you know, there's space for both of those projects where, you know, ack or something specific to amazon You know, if you're want to You know lives exclusively in the database ecosystem and you know only consume those apis Not and not necessarily have any sort of abstraction capabilities on top of it Then you can choose to live uh, live in that ecosystem But if you want to do anything cross cloud or you want to have some sort of consistency across cloud providers Or if you want to start building abstractions with the machinery and cross plane Then I think that's uh, you know, a really strong story to start getting, uh, you know Consuming or using the cross plane project and then at the end of the day to the you know Collaboration with these cloud providers are doing with azure as well to starting with gcp You know have a decent relationship with alibaba as well too At the end of the day, what I would like to see is the uh cloud providers themselves You know become maintainers and take ownership of the cross plane provider And so I think a nice step in that is sharing code generation pipelines and then continuing to increase the amount of collaboration between the projects Um, so they become owners of the classroom providers as well too Yeah, I think that that that's exactly my point and maybe the cncf can then also help once you move into incubation to make it more Um attractive obviously for them to do so because I think that's the real value I mean when you actually go in there and say I want I don't know a load balancer and I can get a load balancer on gcp As well as I could get it on AWS or azure because And I'm just kind of curious how closely you're working with them because all of them have their own resource model like azure has arm You have cloud formation obviously on the aws side and google has also their own version of this model So that's uh that that was my own thought only thought okay, but Which is also not part of the new diligence, but whether do you have some clear Ideas on how to bring cloud providers closer together on something that's like really core like the core service models that they have Which kind of differ between those cloud providers a bit more maybe it would be a nice idea where you could where it's it where it also would like to learn more about like which resources do you see lend themselves well to Say more like a an agreement across cloud providers and which just don't because they are so specific on on the individual cloud providers um But again, it goes beyond the scope of crossplane. I just think it's it's a great opportunity there where Ideally we would see more Yeah, I I totally agree with that. Yeah, I think that that's a really good point And that's that's something that's really nice with the you know flexibility of the abstraction model and crossplane as well too Is that you know the it's more of a framework or a tool set to be able to define lots of different abstractions and compositions etc So we're not necessarily stuck to any lowest common denominator single You know abstraction of truth uh that everybody has to use there's lots of opportunities to create more flexible abstractions that you know fit use cases Somebody uses use cases better than others but also, you know, do our best at creating more unifying abstractions as well too So there's definitely opportunity to keep um growing uh that does endeavors there. I think Yeah, I just see the opportunity there at some point x or m or a Combined version like working with the other cloud providers on x or m might become its own maybe sub project even I would not like do it right now say that it necessarily needs to happen But once at some point we want to have maybe the definition independent from from the implementation Um, but that's maybe a discussion for for another day Yeah, and I just see that being a trajectory that we can go in as well too Like the the next step is kind of more formalizing the x or m and putting a more formal definition to it And then you know letting it mature that way and giving us opportunities to perhaps you know make it an independent thing I can see that Everybody already working with alibaba and microsoft is also working on oam. So I might see this at some point Maybe not converge, but that's getting closer Yeah, thanks for for sharing. I'll open it up once more for question before we jump into a working group proposal Um, just in terms of how you bring um existing resources under management That would be a I know you have these uh dynamic and statically provisioned resources, but is it is it that you just have to start with uh And I think or does you have a pattern for bringing existing resources under management as you yeah, yeah Yeah, great question. Great question. And yes, there is a pattern for that kind of an adoption model where you can have existing resources out there and your cloud providers And then the you can basically, you know, create a crossplane You know representation of that a crd that matches that resource and uh, there's an annotation It's called external name And then you set that to be the name of the resource in the cloud provider. And so when it uh that When that annotation is matching an existing resource crossplane will kind of adopt that resource and say, okay Cool, this already exists. Let me get all the configuration. Let me populate the crd Let me make sure that you know Now this is under management of crossplane have kind of adopted into the control plane So that is set up to to do that to take existing resources and bring them into the management of crossplane uh One interesting aspect of that an extension of that is that um, I think there are two use cases or two variations of that One could be maybe you want crossplane to manage it and you want to be able to update it and change values Over time another one could be you want it to be observe only you want it to be a read only resource Where you want to adopt a read that existing resource that maybe it's managed by another tool But you can have it in the control plane or crossplane in a read only fashion So that other resources can reference it and pull values off of it crossplane won't update it or manage it It's sort of be a read only sort of thing But it's then still available in the crossplane control plane for references from other resources And that's not supported yet the observe only concept isn't supported yet But that's on the roadmap in the in the near term All right, thanks So this is happening. I just had a quick question. But in some ways it seems like this is A super set of what's available in cluster api can can you quickly comment on that? Yeah, and hey dan, you've been working with cluster api specifically on in a number of dimensions Do you want to do you want to take that one then? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I'm sure a lot of folks here are already familiar with how cluster api works But it has a similar model where it has core components and then providers for different, you know, kubernetes offerings whether they be You know a hosted offering like gk or eks or it's, you know, spinning up ec2 instances and installing kubernetes With cuban men or something like that So it's you can envision it kind of as a very focused Version of crossplane in terms of it targets very specific infrastructure and much of that is kind of hard-coded One of the things that we've worked on with the cluster api community And we're continuing to develop is using crossplane As a sort of back end for cluster api So you can imagine that uh, their providers are very scoped. So for instance the gcp provider for cluster api exposes a machine type and a cluster type The cluster type its controller when it reconciles creates things like a vpc or Network is what it's called on gcp Some security groups subnets, etc Kind of all of the peripheral things around setting up a cluster and the machine would be an actual compute instances on gcp So so that cluster type Has those components that it creates hard-coded in the controller On on the contrary for crossplane You can design sort of your abstraction. So something like a cluster type Dynamically by writing yaml and mapping it to granular resources. So the gcp provider for crossplane Instead of exposing a kind of abstract cluster type that provisions a bunch of network is going to expose actually all of those granular resources so the subnets the project the Etc all of those different things that it would be required It would be granular resources and then you would define a cluster type That that basically maps to all of those Which makes it a little bit easier right for a user to be able to configure exactly what it means When you're setting up a kubernetes cluster on gcp and that can be changed and repackaged and in minutes or seconds as opposed to You know having to rewrite the controller Um and rebuild it and that sort of thing. Um, so there's a lot of advantages to that And you actually because the crossplane composition model allows you to You know kind of define any schema that you want. We've actually shown a demo of Being able to take that gcp cluster type and the cluster api controller Create an xrd that composite resource definition of the cross one that defines a new schema And have that map to those different granular resources So instead of having a single controller that watches that and creates all of those different resources on gcp You have a controller that watches that abstract cluster type Spits out those granular resources which then crossplanes provider gcp has individual controllers reach of those resources to go and provision them And and you can imagine right you could change that mapping to to your liking at runtime With crossplane so we like to envision crossplane as kind of a potential back end for cluster api and in the short term that likely looks like having kind of a Cluster api provider that's backed by crossplane and additional to the work that they've done on all those individual ones And it's my belief in the long term That that would be a kind of desired direction to go right because it does offer much more configurability and customization by end users Okay, great. Thanks. Thank you. I have to jump in here because there's lots on the agenda I mean, it's good that we have this discussion We might want to do maybe once in a session specifically on xrm and dive deeper into those questions If people are interested, I still want to give the others, especially the working group proposal a chance to to present as well and somebody has to play The guy watches the clock and unfortunately have to be today I want to give the team here a chance to propose what they're doing because it is kind of related not directly But kind of related. So I think it fits very well In this second year I appreciate it today Okay Yes, so um as arlo has announced before um, we are talking about a real um Similar topic to that what we heard before um, we are So we are jennifer Alex and me um, we put our hands our heads together and um try to discuss such Things as bringing infrastructure and applications together um, and therefore we came to the currently working um working title application Enablement working group for that Yes, and I think we'll Try to just try to describe this in the next few slides Okay, so um at first we um we identified a bit of a problem. So um Um application delivery and deployment is often about artifacts and their configuration, but um All of these um artifacts and the Artifacts need infrastructure at some point at some point. So um as we heard from from from crossbowling before Um, we have databases. We have file storages. We have message queues and so on Um, and at some point in time we um, we might deploy applications um, and we might have um a bit of a shared response of a of a Of a border and responsibility between the application infrastructure developers and the infrastructure guys and um at some point we want to Apply application configuration Um or deploy applications and there might be infrastructure infrastructure components which are not available in the in the target infrastructure So um think about a development stage of an of an deployment you configured an efs provisioner by yourself and you try to push the to to provision the same application to a stage in a production environment And there is not uh the efs provisioner is not Deployed there and therefore the deployment will break And we think that there's almost no solution. So you could um, um, obviously do do something with crossbowling regarding this But there's almost no solution which handles both infrastructure and application deployment But we also think that end users might have found ways to deal with this So, um, they they might use terraform volumi cross plane for infrastructure deployment And they might use auger spin echo captain for the application deployment and they might Do a link via a ci tool or other other different things Um, but um, we also think that there are no best practices at the moment And this is a gap which we we as the as the CNCF working group could feel And um, yes, Alex will tell you what we what we think about application in an environment Thanks, Thomas yeah, so just to Give some annotations on the on those previous points and just to add to that, you know We we look at things like The service mesh working groups and we look at things like smi spec And how that's a ubiquitous spec that's an agreed upon standard across Vendors and across cloud platforms and we think about that kind of standard as as an end goal but more immediately we think about application enablement as being the anecdotes that we kind of Pull together to understand what are the best practices and when I was trying to work with Jennifer and Thomas We came up with sort of this this sentiment here of and I'll read it out You know application enablement is accomplished by describing the requirements for an application workload To operate within a hosted environment and provision components as they are required This domain encompasses the pipelining provisioning and distribution of necessary underlying infrastructure components and ubiquitous yet agnostic pattern To ensure applications are deliverable to any appropriate cloud native ecosystem And you know, we've been speaking about this for the past sort of 30 minutes or so But this resonates at so many points and I think that now more than ever We're really at a singularity where we need to have an opinion within the cncf SIG of how This is how this is done in the real world what the best practices are and potentially where can there be? You know standardization and you know, if you don't want to use such a strong word You can say at least attunement between methodologies And so that's what we're looking to do and you know just to double down on this Thomas if you go to the next slide Please You know, I draw this very very Terse illustration And you know, we all understand kind of what i'm getting at I believe in that there are quite a few steps And and really the application code doesn't get a look in and there's no clear way to really describe what i'm doing here You know, we talk about provisioning in ingress. We don't talk about the wait time out But I have to introduce so that that IP address is provisioned as it's coming up through the stack We don't talk about You know, how does the c i the c i provision its credentials to then execute a remote command to check over health check passes These are all the kind of discrete behaviors that companies throughout the world are having to introduce To accomplish this multi-layer process of application delivery and enablement And so what we would like to be able to do in the SIG again is to sort of look at these kind of Edifices of how do you deploy and how do you deploy on top of that? Is and figure out what are the most common patterns that we're seeing in utilization and Thomas if you go to the next slide, please You'll see that where we're trying to find our niche and where we're trying to sort of Come together on here is looking at the infrastructure the very strong infrastructure provisioning space And the very opinionated very strong space in terms of c i c d enablement You know as we as we were introducing earlier on the call with you know folks like tracy and people from the Continuous Delivery Foundation are thinking about and looking at the synergy there in terms of You know end game. How do we have some sort of specification schema standard opinion on what works really well together? What technologies potentially have projects that can grow out of them? And what could this working group foster in terms of collaboration? And so I believe that and I hope that that kind of captures a sentiment and with that I'll pass on to jennifer Sorry, I was muted hi Yeah, so just summarizing here is it and Putting this matching with the big charter We are looking from the whole end to end right from the application definition configuration packaging and deployment the application delivery The workflow as well and the Yeah So so uh, could you go for the next slide? And now proposed goes here is like is to Get the Find out about the current practices and the landscape because there's a lot going on at the moment various cutting-edge stuff and we Yeah, want to make Reason about those and and make sense of what's going on give the end users the Ideas examples we want to run some pocs and see How they could integrate that With the solutions we have now on the landscape We are also thinking of the personas here, too We don't want to overload Operations, for example, we want to make sure that production engineering can Be can be able to participate get involved on that too So balancing the involvement of various personas across application delivery and provide best practices Through what Thomas and Alex have said could be standards could be Some just some recommendation or a white paper Yeah, and as you can see in the future possibly create a specification for hand infrastructure components in coordinated environments Next slide I think once it goes we are not going to To run something and then recommend a specific full chain We want to look at an agnostic way and and present the current what is currently Going on in the community what people are using and come up with an opinion best practices And I will just affect and thank you Thomas. Thank you Okay Yes, so we also thought about how we could how we could achieve our goals and how we could Start using on this on this topics and We thought in the first step We don't want to write another white paper because Jennifer and me we wrote a white paper in the last few months And in the first step we want to build something and Want to try want to try to give the give the end users something back Which which provides value to value for them similar to the potato head And that they can try things out that they can try to find out what could what could fit best for them And so on so we try to build something usable and We want to achieve this by trying to integrate tools and find solutions So I think there are many many infrastructures code tools As elix described before and there are also a lot of cicd tools Which can be integrated and I think everyone is interested in integrating these things And after we found out which solutions there could We we have on the market And how how best practices could look like for such for such efforts It it might be that there are some some things which we find out that That aren't currently covered by anyone And then we could build a white paper a similar document Which under which is underpinned by our practical work Yes, in the future as elix said before and we could possibly possibly also design something like a like Like a cloud infrastructure interface so smi like That there might be a database claim for databases And it might also be that we create an abstraction Which creates a database and proxies that for the for the application So that we need that we also need the endpoint of a database Now I have the endpoint of a database and possibly possibly also access control, but this is um kind of a future topic Yes, and This was our proposal. I hope everyone liked it and um, yes We'd like to ask how we should proceed Yeah, I mean we we briefly talked before and as I was encouraging This this work to be done. And as you mentioned Jennifer specifically, this is in line with a lot what we want to do I have like this application definition topic, whether it's on the application or online infrastructure topic, which is in the last time I was Talking about this on twitter. I got roasted by some journalists that the Kubernetes doesn't have an app definition And I should never say that And I think it is important. Um We also have harvesting data where the work is over done around XRM I think the idea that I totally like how different tools are doing it today and starting there is Is a great approach. I would definitely reach out to the existing projects to do something in a space Uh, not just because it's nice to do something that there are things. They are already And um, then maybe also reach out then at some point to the end user community I think the working group makes sense I'm still personally struggling a bit with the name Because I think it's not immediately what it does and I know Names are always hard to find I think it hits a very important point to be also so with XRM and others that we need a better way to define Our application constructs dependencies and how we model something there Um, so I say having like a charter and ideally reaching out to maintainers after those individual projects That you have already listed and what they see would fit in there I think it's just super important to get also their feedback um on this topic, um because the official The official setup of the working group is pretty straightforward. You propose chairs And you define the charter and then we go to the tuc I think it needs a bit more work before we go to the tuc What I would personally leave out for the time being is this is my kind of thing Or wants to be that king maker and if it has this, okay, let's define a standard on top of Other things so Jared already left, but I think they might not be super happy if you say that this is the uber XRM model and I know that that's not what you want to do. I mean just making it Uh easier to digest and maybe having a couple of key users that the key use cases that you want to address is Great, but also the examples obviously make make a lot of sense. So Uh It's it's interesting. I think everybody understands the problem But then putting it into words still feels a bit hard which kind of means we don't have a even a word for what We're trying to do here. So we all agree on the problem And that might actually also be the trick here. Maybe to again Put in that this is the problem that we need to solve that people run into So that's how I would propose to to go forward. They like start with the charter document reach out to the projects And ideally have somebody from those individual projects joining you Because the worst thing and I'm coming from a standardization background is a standard that nobody wants to implement So what what do individual projects want to adopt what adopt what do they already have available? Is there like a common agreement? Um, how are they complementary? I think that by itself is is a very great starting point to see what's What's there? I think it's a it's great that we're moving in that direction. That was from the very beginning I remember when uh, brian harry and myself started to to work on this Uh, so yeah, we need an application definition and make this easier and really move up the the application stack here. So think Great initiatives to get started And maybe we regroup what your findings are with those those other projects That's also what I like about the seek to do more Like in in general, first of all have more end user related impact Well, I don't like the word end user. It's finished like people who are actually using it on a day-to-day basis And sometimes it's hard to say because I know I'm obviously working with thomas. He is an end user also He's also working for a vendor like like many others, uh I think that's an important part and obviously we're bringing projects closer together to collaborate on Um Problems that exist in the industry if you can do both together in a working group, I think then that's ideal Was like me very long saying it's a great idea Talk to a couple more people and let's recoup the next time and see what you found out That's the tldr. Maybe it's good And where are those It might be helpful to do a data model of what um, you're proposing kind of like you can look at the xrm or what What they've done and say like it um overlaps with You know what cluster api is doing, um, that would be helpful And like in the area you're working on I would say like part of the model might be actually multiple applications, right? Because in in this space, let's say where you have 200 microservices You know, there might be a uh a hierarchy you might want to represent or some dependency that you might want to represent or You might want to encounter like environments being a first-class citizen and Rolling out applications you talked about monitoring those all kind of different parts of your data model. So if you have a data model of what you saw Your crd looking at or crd's looking like That would that would be helpful in terms of Or even not thinking about a crd's just in terms of what is it that you guys want to model and that might be enough to describe In words, you know like because those are written kind of what you see as your charter I was just curious if we can uh, uh, is there a place for that slide deck? Is that the Yeah, we can drop it in we can yes That would be great. Uh, just in case uh, anybody else from the cdf would like to see what you have to on the best practice Yeah I think putting the slide deck in there and also starting the discussion with the charter document where people can chime in there And I'm leaving it at the end to you to reach out to to the projects and Good things people were also asking here where there's a specific slack channel. Robert was asking. Yes. There is a specific slack channel There is the app delivery slack channel in the cncf slack not in the covalentus slack Which is sometimes confusing for people And most it's like You can't go there or you can also use the mailing list what I think for most people go to the slack channel And when we share something we usually try to share it on both channels here Yeah, I think we ran out of time today, which is good and bad at the same time The good thing is we have a lot of things to discuss a lot of momentum made a bad time. We have to postpone uh some Of those conversations to the next time like the operator working group update That's maybe a very short one that the operator working group can do But I'm afraid we won't be able to talk about conveyor today. So we won't have those 15 Minutes, so I'd like to postpone it to next time and use the last two to three minutes just for very very quick update on the operator working group progress Okay, um, yes, that's also me. Um for us, let's say this way um, so um in the last I think about two weeks before uh, I go with Finished or collaborative review of the operator white paper So currently we are uh, we are starting the the next review phase or let's say the public comment phase um, therefore I've I've We've also create uh opened up a pull request Which I will share afterwards in the in the Slack channel and on the mailing list and um It would be nice if some if someone of you would take a look on the operator white paper to comments If something is not really clear in the document, um, feel free to comment it or make proposal suggestions or whatever um, I think we will uh the public comment phase will take two Two weeks weeks as we discussed as I discussed with others And afterwards we will try to publish the the white paper um, yes That that's all of our progress at the moment. So we we have no more content to present so In the in the last steps Yeah, that was a long time in the making. I think it's great. And then let's um get this also shared Maybe in the tuc mailing list once everybody feels comfortable to do so Definitely something to have ready for kubecon coming up. Yeah, and we are up On top of the hour already. So I know Amy usually scales his meetings for 45 minutes and she knows that we're already running over so um Causing some of you not having a break Um, so for conveyor, I would like to move this to the next one and then give them Like the start to start by the office conveyor that they have a fair chance to present in two weeks from now and What I want to thank every all of you for your presentations I think it was a very good and very well prepared meeting today A lot of different topics also interesting to see Topics converge on the working group side as well as on the cross plane side. So That's definitely great. And again, if you have any proposals for topics to present for the next meeting Feel free to post them in the agenda. We try to arrange them as uh As much as we can uh, and accommodate them if you want to do a presentation Usually a good idea had you seen today like if you stick something that to 10 minutes plus five minutes discussions, that's fine It's uh topics go deeper. I'd rather schedule a follow-up than cutting it off And not coming to those points. Thanks everyone for today And hope to see you again in two weeks from now Bye Thank you. Bye Okay. Um, so I think we are in the operator working group meeting now Yeah Is it the same zoom call I just left the zoom call, but I'm not sure if someone will join the okay so I'm Jennifer is also asking if there is an uh operator working group now Yeah, but but I also think we don't have much to discuss today Okay, uh, I guess I can you know, I can if there's anything I can help with in the review cycle. I'm happy to do so um Yes, as well as we talked before and we should make the the whole wording a bit more fluent if possible So if there's something you'll find there, it would be nice if you could do this okay I'll go through I'll go through the document again and look for more like Not just grammar, but also maybe like phrasing and you know text on it me Hello again Hi, hello. Um, so I think the operator working group will be will be very short short today um, so I thought uh, Alex Alex and we talked about um what we should do next so um I'll kick off the the public comment phase now. Um, or tomorrow or whenever Um, and afterwards we should try to make the whole document a bit more fluent. So I think this is the thing with we talked about as um narrative voice and so on Um, yes to make it better readable and so on and I hope um Yes, and um, um, I hope in two weeks we have a final version of the operator white paper Which we uh, and I'll talk also talk to emily from the security and she said we can Reach out to the help desk of the cncf and they help us with publishing the white paper. So also make it making it pretty and Shiny and whatever is this Public comment is that the toc Going to look at it and will we I mean if it's Available tomorrow or something like we and we are making the narrative voice like we do At the same time then like the is like in parallel that we're going to be submitting changes Because it feels like it's going to be like a change everywhere. Maybe not maybe Lots of chapters we want to keep the same but to have the same flow we could change the whole thing so We can also we could also um start the public comment phase on monday So if you want we can make we can try to make it a bit more fluent until monday And start the public comment phase then okay So I think it's I think from a time perspective. It's absolutely no problem at the moment Because I think we we we said that we will be finished on the on this on the start of of may And I think we'll uh this we can accomplish this Okay, okay, I'll try to get on friday hours to do But only if it's okay for you we can also say we start the comment phase on wednesday. So for me, it's absolutely no problem But we should start it at some point Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh before the next Now are we having seagap delivery meetings the same day we used to have every other like Things like No, I think the next seagap delivery meeting is next week Oh, okay. I heard them saying Do we have to do the uh Reaching out to the community by next week and the other projects um We could try this but um, I don't think we have to Okay, it might be Good to start. I'm happy to help like yeah I'm not sure we can guarantee that everyone will respond But maybe we can at least say that we put it in progress And also maybe have a look at a draft charter Yeah um, yes I've created the document uh, so the the google doc in the in the beginning In a way that it might be easily converted to a charter So I copied this from the github's working group charter Okay, and so I think we only have to add some things which we which we described in the presentation now But then we can use this as a charter also Um, and I would try to send out the charter as soon as possible To um get a bit more more people in there I feel like we would make this a lot more successful if I always uh agreed with the name so Yeah, that's difficult. I I I did have um, I did have one other idea And I don't think we mentioned it on the initial ideation on the document Um, and that was the word interoperability So maybe we need to go and think about more names, but I'm not sure he doesn't seem keen on it I don't know maybe he just needs to get used to it Um, yes, I think Some point with interoperability or integration and working group would be cool We can get opinions from the projects as well as a good idea and users and stuff and then How how would you recommend? How would you want to contact them? Like what's the best? What's the normal way? Um, I think there is no normal way. Yeah, it's just random for the For the operator working group. I often try to ping some people on slack for some projects Could we use could we use the sig app delivery channel because they'll all be in that channel and just say hey Please participate and do like a google survey or something Or maybe maybe we wouldn't get enough people to participate Um, I think in the first step we could use the app delivery channel Okay, reach out and try to find some people from from there How about I will um DM us in our group? I'll put a A sentence or two together and we can look at it and then if you think it looks good I'll paste it and then maybe I can just invite people to contact us if they'd like to Participate or something like that. Yes, so absolutely no problem. Okay. I'll take that as an action Um at some point in time if you if we have Some people which might join us and we can also schedule a zoom meeting for that Um, and yeah, like the the the the guy that we met today laszlo Who's working on a similar problem space would probably be interested in this kind of sig through this kind of working group Yeah, so um, he would also be a good candidate for that And also the cross playing guys would be perfect candidates for that I'm not sure if we have something from someone from terraform in the especially interest group But I think it's awesome. I saw someone from hessie crop tell sometime ago I know that tracy would be really interested, you know, because she represents not only Not only deploy hub, but also the cdf And I I work a little bit on the cdf as well. So there's a lot of cross power cross pollination Yes, I was also I also participated in some best practices meetings there And I also think that this would be a topic which would be interesting for the for the cdf So it could also be that we do kind of a joint effort with this working group I think that'd be a really good idea. Yeah So, um, yes, I think we could reach out to tracy and try to find try to find out what what she thinks about this Because then we would have a lot of more a lot a lot more people joining the Yeah, in the in the other in the to see and other Bigs and stuff. There are people from end users. We can try to reach out to them as well and just Think somebody Um, Jennifer, I think you you what you were active in the end user community around you Yeah, I was when I was not a vendor I'm trying to reach to my colleagues to see if they are still part of like they renew their membership and stuff um, I just being one of them was waiting and the And I know also some people that work on a cncf I'll just check if they they can like recommend someone to talk to or something I'll just directly think of them. I think I have had good experiences being people So they they are receptive sometimes they they just I'll answer but One or two answers so we could try to get to some some use cases Um, does it have to be just by end users? Like if I talk to another company that's not yet, but They they would like to share the use case would would that be okay or do you think It's absolutely no problem. So um, I will also try to find some use cases To be all The company I'm working for is also a vendor, but I'm acting as an end user as I always said before Yeah, yeah, I will have a discussion tomorrow as well my couple people my team because One person in my team is the chair for the Steve Davis catalog and they are trying to like they are looking into this Kubernetes service binding spec um And then we are going to discuss if there is any Thing that's like I like such as use cases or any shared interest that could be contribution or something I I want to understand more, but I Have a chat tomorrow too We can so I guess as a map actions for us. So we will reach to these people try to find use cases some feedback um Should we like Alex said start a charter draft And we can also give our you because we thought a few use cases right you had the problem Thomas you you mentioned on our Working group proposal doc. So we could start with that put something and then Take it from there and then start contribute that synchronously. So we don't need to arrange a zoom meeting straight away No, not really so Um, yes, I can take the the task to start writing the charter um and to um Yes, um, I'll start writing the charter and share to you both um afterwards and uh when we agree that this is an uh A good starting point we can share it on the on the mailing list and on the slack channel But I would do this in a Uh in the next few uh, so I would like to share this in the next few days if it's possible Yeah, it's good. I think that makes sense Okay, then I think we'll get back some minutes or have a Can start evening a bit earlier Thanks very much. See you later. Thank you very much. Bye. Thank you for the presentation. Bye