 on this episode of Skeptico, a show about love in the extended consciousness realm. We can't directly establish causation, right? If you look at what Richard Dolan was describing of the tall graze and the reported experiences of these people of overwhelming love, and you compare this to the near-death experience reports of this overwhelming love, and then you look at, for instance, the New Testament, and it's all about love. Love is all that matters. We also look at the counterculture in the 60s, 1960s, with the Beatles. All you need is love, and I just started to get a little bit suspicious of this. Why is it always just love? Why is it only about that and not about, for instance, material accomplishments in this world? Why is it always just love? And why we might not want to go off fanboy on the love thing. Hey, remember when you were in the Beatles, and you did that album, Abbey Road, and the song goes, and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. You remember that? Yes. Is that true? Yes, Chris, in my experience, it is I find the more you give, the more you get. I have an interview coming up in a minute with Nelson Insert pseudo name there who did just a fantastic interview with me a couple months ago. I have no idea why I sat on this as long as I did. It's actually so good that I've broken it up into two parts because we talk about so many things and we talk about this other subject we'll kind of hint at at the end, but it's so different that I wanted to break it into a separate episode. But anyway, all this other great stuff is coming up now in my interview with Nelson. We roll right into this. So I will say, welcome to Skeptica where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Sikaris. And today we welcome a guy who just amazing to me that Nelson found the show and then found me through the forum. I feel so grateful to have connected with him. He's so smart and has brought so many brilliant, new, fresh ideas to the table. This kind of level three discussion is exactly what I love to do in these shows. So he doesn't have a website. He doesn't have a book yet. He's just a really, really smart guy. And I hope you enjoy this dialogue with him. Is there a right with you then just if we, because I've written the notes just the highlights of this. And you remember our discussions way back because you know, Anna, she was doing the website through the Facebook site in the YouTube video. So we go way back. We go way back, my man. So, you know, we ought to start with, I mean, that's was enough of a reason to chat. What really just totally blew my mind is when you sent the latest thing about the slave mentality in the Romans because it just rings true. And there's a lot of subtle things to unravel there. You know, we ought to start with kind of who you are in your background. And then I think, I just don't know where to go on the blood-soath thing. We'll just do it. And then if it's okay with you, I might not go forward with that just because all the reasons I told you. But I'd love to have that chat with you. So Nelson, you're here, tell me a little bit about, I really don't know or can't remember much about your background. Tell me. I'm a classical scholar, so ancient Greece and Rome and was a researcher and tutor in different universities in New Zealand with this. And it was really just an amazing time just to be with old school professors who really respected just the ancient history and the cultures and the ancient religions. But then I noticed that the new blood within the system, these new professors, they were more and more ideological and they were labeling, for instance, the ancient religions as just superstition, not to be taken seriously. And the entire aesthetic of the art, for instance, I was a paid researcher in ancient Greek bars, paintings. And I just noticed that this was all being corrupted. And I just really wanted to just focus on the ancient world and just to immerse myself into this way of thinking in this material culture. And so my professors, for instance, they said that I could go on to be a professor, to that the ceiling was limitless for me. But I just decided with a heavy heart that I just couldn't carry on with the way the Academy had basically been subverted by ideologues who were more interested in pushing an agenda than the actual ancient past. Can I interject a question? Because I think this is like a super important point that I keep running into again and again. I don't have the answer to it. To what extent do you think there has been this sea change that you're talking about? Because I'm sure you could go find old timers there that you could kind of, maybe you did, that you could pull aside and go, hey kid, actually it's always been like that. And here are the political games that I had to play and all the rest of that stuff. And maybe it varies from department to department. Maybe it varies from administration to administration. I don't know. I have kind of an intuitive sense from just what I've done here that there really is a change. But I don't want to fight that too and I really want to challenge that. Do you know what I mean? Do you want to explore the whole, because I'm sure you probably question that too, don't you? No, absolutely. And tracing it back to the Frankfurter School, for instance, way back in the earlier 20th century. But it even goes further back than that, that there were these machinations before then to become less and less about actual searching for knowledge about history, for instance, in my case, and more just to instill an ideology, just a few points that they just keep on hammering into the students' minds, just the whole frame of the oppressor versus the oppressed narrative, as you know, on cultural Marxism. So is it new? Is it same game, different, same playbook, different play, where now it's a different agenda being pushed forward or is there really something new in terms of the consolidation of control and power? Do you feel like you had the ability to go to another institution and have it be different or what are your broader thoughts about that? Because you know what I mean, Nilsson, I mean, we kind of get locked in and I don't want to do that. I don't want to get locked into just kind of, you know, the diatribe, oh my God, we're oppressed and this is the way it is. If that's the way it is, I want to talk about it, but I want to make sure we're kind of exploring the whole part of it. No, absolutely, I can understand that. And I think that people aren't like these more nuanced processes of history of the development of things. They're just like a simple causation and a point where they can just mark. That's where it began, right? And I think it is what you said, it's cumulative and that more and more of these faculties have just been taken over by these ideologues, basically. And the people who are genuinely searching after knowledge of the ancient past that they slowly became and often unwittingly just pushed out. And even if they were brilliant researchers and teachers that they just ended up retiring and then the new people who are coming in were just taking it over. And once you get the elite capture of a certain faculty and they start consciously putting in their fellow ideologues into the positions of authority, then it's very quick that the entire faculty just gets taken over. And tenure, for instance, is an illusion. I've heard so many stories of, for instance, an entire faculty just being fired, basically. So everyone was let live. And then they rehired only the ones that they wanted in. So that was a run around the institution of tenure. The other thing I've heard about tenure is the other game that they play is they're just changing the rules going forward. Cause I've heard from people that have come on the show say, I have tenure, but I'm a dying breed. They're just, and to your point, when they hire people, they just hire them and that's part of their employment agreement. It's a non-tenure track, you know, or they'll eliminate it. So they have a lot of little things, but if you think about it, tenure doesn't really serve the system that they, you know, would you want tenure, if you were running a department, would you really want tenure? If you were running a university, would you really want tenure? And I think it kind of, to me, it also relates to this whole thing about capitalism. And of course, capitalism run amok is a disaster and that's why we have these rules, but it's almost like the reverse of that. Yeah, if I was running, if I was running a business, I'd want no restrictions, no controls. And the same thing, if I was running a university, I wouldn't want tenure because that is, that is reduces my ability to control. And it's funny how people see this kind of left, right, they don't see the shades of, it's just people want total power to do what they want, whether they're in business or whether they're in academia. And our job is to put those controls in. Tenure was designed to be a control. You probably should speak to that more because that was your life there for a while. Speak to the whole tenure thing. When I began, I just had this naive view that I could get into the academy, become a well-known researcher just through the competency that I brought to it. But then I just realized more and more that they just talking to professors that they weren't, most of them that I encountered in different faculties, that they were really only interested in basically just getting published. That was the main thing for them, actually. So it was just the selfish aim to just get published or perish, right? You just have to keep publishing. And many of them were publishing dozens and dozens of articles, but the readership on these is almost zero. So you can even statistically see this, that how often an article is cited, of course. And I think the average in the humanities is only one. One citation. You know, one of the conversations I had a while ago, I don't know if you remember, what was a Virginia Tech professor named Dr. Henry Bauer. And he's an older guy and he's been around and he's really kind of seen a lot of things. And he's kind of got interested in the HIV AIDS thing, and that was one of the things that I don't want to go too far into that, but very good science. And he also got interested in just people who's in academia, whose ideas were being suppressed. But what he pointed out from a big picture standpoint that I thought was really interesting and plays into what you're saying, he said, if you look at it from an economic model, in the 50s, there was this huge increase in funding for all sorts of academic endeavors, whether it's in the humanities or the sciences or whatever, there was money. It just, and then there was a move in the 70s to rein that in. And when you reduce the pool, well, the fish that were in there and were kind of swimming and getting along because there was plenty of food, started having to attack each other. And that's what I think that competitive environment was utilized by maybe, and I'll get your opinion on this, became a tool and a vehicle for people who wanted to control the situation, control the message, whether it was a corporate entity trying to advance its drug or whether it was someone who was trying to advance a certain idea. They saw an opportunity that, wow, now I have these guys jumping through all sorts of hoops for relatively nothing in terms of what I can give in terms of a grant or a citation or all the rest of that. And what do you think about Bauer's analysis of that from an economic model? Well, I didn't actually see that interview. I've seen most of your interviews but it just is a fascinating point what you brought up because I just remembered straight away as you said that Clifford Geerts, he's a cultural anthropologist and very influential. He was maybe the most cited of any anthropologist in the last decades. He said explicitly that he got into the academy when it opened up during that time that you were mentioning that there was an explosion of positions in the university system and that he got in at the right time during the way. And he was really influential with just changing anthropology from something that you could empirically and sort of objectively analyze that you could really have discussions about measurable facts. So something that is post-modern that you just, it's just an opinion and the meaning of words are just completely turned around and twisted and so you can't really even have a discussion about facts anymore and anthropology in cultural anthropology at least. And this just reminds me that looking at from a conspiratorial angle that if you want to take over a faculty at a university you would open up the number of positions, get your people in who are on your side. And then once they're in, like let's say you've got half of the faculty who are more just old school who are just interested in the material, you open it up so that there are twice as many people but you're hiring the ones that you want and then you constrict it again like a funnel just constricting more and more and that's what's happening maybe. That's quite brilliant, I hadn't heard of that before but doesn't that make a lot of sense? That's really quite interesting. So Nelson, what should we, there's so many interesting things we could talk about. Again, we've had this wonderful, wonderful relationship. It's so cool to talk to you for the first time but I can't, I say this all the time but I feel connected to you just through the emails and the forum and over the years and this connection we have through the show and it is great to talk to you but it doesn't feel even like it's the first time talking to you even though it is but recently we've had an email exchange that has really, I don't know, just taken, blown a mind as I said earlier and there's a couple of different parts of that that we might want to talk about. Where do you think we might start? What's on your agenda? Okay, first off, I have to give credit to Marty Garza who is an expert on the field of UFOs and he did this amazing series on Brothers of the Certain podcast with whom you've had interviews before and he did this series on UFOs and I believe if I'm remembering correctly that Marty was actually a consultant at Fox News for one of their shows on UFOs that he was the expert that they had where people would call in about their sightings and Marty would then analyze the likelihood that that actually was a UFO and not just some natural phenomenon or some sort of aircraft and so if anyone wants to see this then in more detail then this series with Marty on Brothers of the Certain podcast so just to say that and this really just, this series blew my mind and he comes from this study looking UFO whereas I come from the perspective of academically studying and teaching mythology, ancient religions and just the way that people fought back in the ancient world and so the two of us we were talking on the Brothers of the Certain Discord forum, Marty and I and we did have some disagreements with details but just overall it was amazing how much there is this continuum between the phenomena in the ancient world of the myths talking of these beings which are far more powerful than humans who shape-shift, who capricious who behave unpredictably that they can implant thoughts into people's minds abduct people at will and who can breathe with people and then if we look at that as a general phenomena just looking at that as a pattern just as a meta-analysis we go then through folklore and speaking of exactly the same thing one of the greatest folklore researchers said that that's the main theme in folklore is basically hybridization between these entities and humans and then we go on to the witch trials and at the middle ages and coming into the early modern period where they're talking about the same things this is a central theme for instance the maleus maleficarum which is the main text of the witch trials is the interbreeding between humans and these demons as they call them but they're basically these paranormal entities and then if we go further into ufology going way back as well before Roswell and everything but we're getting into this as well that there are these beings who are coming down from the sky or somehow appearing from the earth they seem extremely telepathic they can shape-shift seemingly at will they're luminous and they can basically abduct people and breathe with them and they're obsessed with bloodlines and they're creating this progeny which is a hybridization of human and what I will call in this interview just UFO being just as in quotation marks because it's very difficult to define what these entities are whether they're gods or some sort of consciousness or some sort of material purely material being if we want to call it we're going to interweave this discussion back to the first part of the controlled message and we're talking about the controlled message in academia which seems to be lying behind that why are things moving in a certain direction why is the theme kind of relativism and what I always point out why does it go back philosophically to materialism you are meaningless you are a biological robot which is the underlying point I think in the humanities and they don't even realize it because they're not tuned into consciousness really being the fundamental question in science so they don't even notice when someone is steering them in a direction that leads towards affirming this kind of scientific materialism but I think that's the game at hand and you're nodding your head so I think we'd agree but I think and I don't want to get too far off the trail but I can't resist throwing this just little sub point on the table I almost feel like when we keep talking about UFOs and UAPs there is a certain kind of conditioning psi-op thing going on there because I can't believe the number of people I talk to and say well let's talk about ET let's talk about abduction and they're resistant to going there and there's like a pullback and it's like well I don't know I don't know how I feel about that I believe in UFOs I believe but I'm not willing to go there and I'm like okay think that through for me and tell me how you're putting that together you know and if you're if you're putting that together you know specifically in terms of saying well I think they're all drones operated you know then okay but it just seems to me that what's been planted into the system is this kind of block there's almost mental block that like I will accept the evidence of the UFO UAP but I won't even begin to go there with the ET because it leads to all the things you're talking about it leads to abduction it leads to genetic manipulation it leads to what is our history how far back does our history go and of course it leads to the extended consciousness realm and what role are these beings entities whatever playing in that in that game in that extended field but if I can roll that back what do you think about that that's kind of a crazy idea I know but do you think there's anything to that Nelson have you noticed that stop point that gap that speed bump that people have mentally between UFOs and each I have but I actually experienced the UFO myself as I communicated two years ago and I just assumed that it was a nuts and bolts sort of craft and that it was just simple and just a very very briefly described this this friend of mine from America we were at the hostel in Australia and he told me that he isn't sort of a telepathic communication with UFOs and that in the state where he lives in the US I think it was New Mexico or Arizona where it's really desert like and clear skies he said that above his house every night there are these UFOs and that they're over the house and that he and his two sort of housemates that they have this telepathic communication with this light and I asked him what to what extent is this connection that you have with him and he said that he can tell when these lights are in the sky telepathically and that they're not hostile but more than that he has no idea and so he was saying that this UFO had been following him around the whole world from America to Australia when we were backpacking just that it was present sometimes and so one night we're on the balcony of the hostel and it was the evening and he just said I can sense that this UFO is here now and we were looking in the sky and we saw him on the horizon towards the blue mountains towards the interior of Australia this light which looked like a star and it started moving and it was in a zigzag like this and it was changing direction at a very sharp angle and not slowing down whatsoever and at this time I'd only just heard very cursorily just what a UFO is supposed to be and I just assumed that there would probably be some sort of craft up there some flying saucer maybe that was making this light and so I was just amazed and was telling people in the hostel and one of the people in the hostel there in Sydney in the kitchen of the hostel he said no you should be careful if these lights they're prophesied in the book of revelations and that they're from the devil and he was very adamant about this and I just got a bit concerned that if you tell people that they have all of these these ideas these preconceived ideas of what these things are and for myself I just believed it was nuts and bolts and then I was talking to you years later and in the form they're skeptical and I was just telling this other experience that I had of this reincarnation flashback which I'll call it in quotation marks and it was that at the hostel there in Australia and Sydney it was in the evening and I was walking from the hostel to the beach about fifty metres away and I was at the car park between the hostel and the beach and then suddenly I could feel this energy in my body this energy flowing very strong going up and down from head to toe and then suddenly I couldn't move and I just stood there in the middle of the night there and no alcohol or drugs or anything like that I didn't take drugs or anything just to make clear him and so I was just standing there feeling this energy and couldn't move a muscle and then suddenly everything went blindingly white electric white sort of light and then slowly out of this whiteness and I couldn't I couldn't feel my body anymore I couldn't sense time I saw out of this whiteness this seeing before my eyes of this landscape which somehow I knew was in the ancient past and I was looking down on this river valley which was out of the valley by the river was this temple and on the portico of the temple was this figure who was dressed in white clothes had a bald head shaved head and I was looking down at him and somehow I knew that this was a previous incarnation of an Egyptian priest and then I was watching him as a past life experience and I don't know how long I witnessed this for but then the scene started to disappear and the whiteness came back it's electric light and then I could sense my body again and the energy was just flowing up and down shaking my body even and I could slowly start to move again and that was my reincarnation experience and this would become more important as we discuss what this could have actually meant because it's very existential and your listeners will notice the similarities between what I just described and near-death experiences as well but I told you about this reincarnation flashback on the forum and then you said to me that there is research that UFO experiences and near-death experiences are often within a short period of each other and that just blew my mind when I heard that because I thought straight away of this reincarnation flashback and how similar this is to a near-death experience and that this flashback was within a few days of seeing the UFO at the hostel after this friend of mine had left Australia back to America I was looking at the sky every evening and within two days I think it was within leaving I saw this starlight light in the sky doing this again this time on the other horizon towards the Pacific and it was on the horizon moving in that characteristic shape and then it suddenly just went down and I don't know if it went over the horizon or into the sea but yeah that was what happened basically and the reincarnation flashback was within this week to ten long a ten day long period so it's extremely unlikely that there was a coincidence I feel Yeah there does seem to be something to the opening up to this extended realm and I'm always hesitant to go too far there because fundamentally we don't understand consciousness and that's been my that's been my gig my soapbox for ten years is until we can admit okay we don't understand it we don't really know how to process a lot of this stuff and I just continue to continue to go there I mean the fundamental question is his consciousness fundamental because if consciousness is fundamental and all is emerging out of consciousness well then it's a different game and that is the essentially when we go to the spiritual that's what the spiritual wisdom traditions especially the ones that I'm then most tuned into the yogic ones I mean that's what they've always said is that it's all an illusion it's all Maya so it's all a play and there does seem to be a certain truth to that but that would that would cause us to look at all of this stuff differently all of this completely differently you know and I think we don't really want to go there right away at least we want to sit here and try and figure it out but I always want to kind of bracket the discussion of figuring it out with this idea that at some fundamental level we don't really understand we don't understand what past life memories are and I think like if I just throw my two cents in one of the misunderstandings that I think a lot of people leap to is if you if you listen to Jim Tucker from the University of Virginia and you watch the cases that he's reviewed or you read about the cases and you read the peer reviewed journals and you look at the science behind it you know the correlation between violent death and birthmarks I mean gosh you can't get I mean that's that's pretty hard to hard to walk away from and if you just look at the number of cases they get that are vile that that have a reincarnation memory associated with it and have a violent death associated with it compared to the general population well that jumps out too as a statistical anomaly and then of course that's a folk tradition in India as well I learned meditation in India and just spent time in the countryside and talked with the people and this is a folk belief of exactly what you say so the science and the folk tradition is showing the same thing again so it seems very unlikely that that would be coincident yeah that's great I'm glad I'm glad you threw that in there so I just wanted to go back to your question originally about the style and if there is a style that the UFO phenomena is just being narrated as nuts and bolts right and I believe that there is it just if you look at the pattern they just want the simple narrative that is just reductive materialistic that it's a threat maybe they can create the problem reaction solution they can create this the one world government through this of global threat therefore a global solution getting a cons on a conspiratorial angle but you see even this with with valet for instance hold on before we jump into valet which is the whole other thing I want to comment on what you just said because when you were telling me about your story the one thing that flashed to me which is another crazy angle and when you first started talking you said you know we're going to have to be willing to go to that next level I always call it level three inside baseball where we may lose some people but that's okay you know we just oh no no it's no problem we just have to go where it takes us but now what I thought about is that when when you were talking about seeing the UFO and thinking that it's nuts and bolts the first thought I would is oh my god this sounds like so many of the screen memory things that you hear from UFO from ET abductees right you'll you'll hear about this over and over again you know I just interviewed a guy named Ralph Blumenthal who's a New York Times reporter and maybe we'll come back to him but he wrote a terrific biography on John Mack and John Mack was a of course the Harvard professor who got interested in people who had these abduction experiences and he said wow I'm a I'm one of the world's leading psychiatrists I know when people are making stuff up these people are not making this stuff up part of that experience is this screen memory you are okay you have and it's often very simple kind of ideas that that are almost like you know nursery school level rhymes kind of thing but what it it I just had an instant connection with what you were talking about there's nothing to worry about this is just nuts and bolts machine you know it's like it's such as oversimplified explanation for what you're experiencing that it did pop to mind that it could potentially be a screen memory and that doesn't preclude it from being all those other things that you're saying too it would just suggest that there maybe is some cooperation between whoever is implanting some of those screen memories and your idea which I think is my conclusion too is that of course you want people to think that it is a nuts and bolts of course you want people to think down a materialistic science standpoint because you hit the nail on the head I think then it becomes a military threat then it becomes the impetus for us to further control and use our standard playbook of military industrial complex we're going to protect you kind of thing it all fits together before we jump on I had like five other topics that you've already kind of brought up that I want to get back to including the past lives memory thing but did I kind of get that right and I kind of took it one step further with perhaps ET is part of that planting that screen memory of don't worry it's just it's just an object it's just nuts and bolts it's just a machine in the sky so how would you define screen memory by the way well screen memory isn't so much my term it's just a common term among abductees that they feel like and it's also a term that is used for people who have trauma dissociative identity kind of thing of where it's like in hypnosis where there's a block you know as soon as you start thinking about something you're just blocked from going any further or so the screen the screen memory among the abduction community and I don't want to overstate it because I'm certainly not an expert is implanted memory that when they examine it further seems inconsistent with what they would normally how they would normally process the situation you know what I mean so it's just stands out as kind of an unusual implanted memory that doesn't exactly fit the scenario you know why are my clothes why am I wearing someone else's clothes you know it's like well there's an explanation for there's an explanation for everything that pops into mind that rationally doesn't make any sense we always come back to the existential question then with UFOs of consciousness the nature of consciousness and it reminds me so much of NDE's as well and we'll get to this in a second I think later on that there's this seemingly absurd or irrational bizarreness even of this phenomena that is difficult to really just make sense of and this is one of the reasons why I started to question what these NDE's actually could be and I do want me to get into that now actually maybe maybe let's pause let's pause on that for a second because I kind of want to finish a point that I was maybe I was not getting there fast enough but with the past life memories the one problem I see with that is like like I was saying you know you can go down the Jim Tucker path and the science that the University of Virginia has compiled on that and you walk away and you go wow and the one thing that strikes you is the big lie you know wow how can science ignore this this is overwhelming data that's replicated over and over again and Jim Tucker is doing the right thing he just says I'm just compiling more and more and more data more case work doing it as carefully as I can and you can appreciate this from your academic background is I'm just going to pile it up and I'm going to stack the corded wood with cases from the North America as well because there's a certain amount of dismissing this because they're from India or Sri Lanka but the problem with that is that then I think a lot of people take the next step and I am unwilling to take that next step the next step is to suggest that it is literally true that you are literally remembering a past life and that you can understand that in the context of your life and if you really step back and look at that and that's why I guess I would relate that back to your story of the your past life or memory or what you suspect is a past life memory of the ancient Egypt quotation marks as well that's why I did put it in quotation marks I sense that you have that sensibility which I think is great and I mean I guess this is kind of even more of a philosophical question but your of that mindset to be the right guy to talk about this is that that is a recurring theme in this in terms of how do we move forward how do we use that data that new data that is trying to be suppressed and trying to be denied but then how do we not overstep with it because and you understand the implications is what I'm or you understand where I'm going with that is that past life memories do not only make sense in linear time and yet they're talking about escaping time and space to have those memories so there's an there's already an internal contradiction that no one talks about how can you have a past life memory what does that mean why do you think your life is primary are you living multiple lives at the same time you know which life is primary is fundamental all these questions kind of just get pushed aside and say well well no can you take me back to a time when I had this past life memory without really thinking it through and then I think as our challenge in terms of pushing this consciousness frontier is to just kind of point out these obvious problems do you have any do you have any thoughts on that my thoughts on this are that there are a number of angles that we have been taking right the actual investigators such as the University of Virginia professor with the with the re-incadation stories that he's been compiling and Dr Long for instance and others pin them along with the near-death experiences and they're really the investigators who are compiling the data and they're specialists in their field and highly qualified in that field but then there is the analysis of the data and looking at different data sets as well for instance what you've been doing on your show is looking at all these different fields which originally seemed to be disconnected like when you started talking about UFOs I was really just I found that just a quizzical really I didn't really understand where you were going with that and some of your audience also were wondering what you were doing with this but then we look at the similarities just the overall patterns between these different fields and we'll put that in quotation marks as well so these different data sets and we've got near-death experiences for instance we've got re-incarnation memories and we've got ufology and I just and we've got mythology as well and so if we've got all of these different fields of study and folklore as well so many of them if we look at it as a very very broad pattern we're seeing very very similar phenomena for instance this sensation of timelessness that these experiences have that time becomes meaningless that space also becomes meaningless just with a thought this UFO seems to just what the adductees are recalling is that they're then there at that place and that there's this dislocality with this whole pattern and this is what I think is necessary for the few people in the world who have enough knowledge with these different data sets who have been trained as well to analyze data that we can just see these overall patterns and not be distracted by the smaller details and we can just see the overall pattern for instance of what you were describing timelessness and spacelessness within all of these data sets but it's tough isn't it and I'd go back to your background I thought it was so interesting you said you know you were studying these Greek vases right like and you were probably one of the top experts in the world with that I imagine just from what you're telling me not that you were the top but one of the top and so there is someone out there is someone out there what's that compared to the general population so there's someone out there on the site doing the archaeological dig sifting through that stuff that's bringing back to you the little pieces and then you're compiling those little pieces and then there's someone else who's analyzing it as you said well great Nelson that's great and you've put it together and you've put it and just to be clear I've always been more of an analyst not an investigator so I specialize in the analysis not the actual excavation it's not archaeology so I'm looking at this more of a meta-analysis of all these different religions these ancient religions and the ancient cultures and how they thought and really immersing myself in that and seeing the overall patterns of this and to figure out how they thought how the material culture was awesome totally awesome and I kind of assumed so and I just was wondering if you wanted to take what you just said and take that even further right because as you described at the very beginning of the show then your mind when you learned about some folklore and mythology that you weren't familiar with you immediately expanded your paradigm which was already kind of there and I think that's what's constantly constantly going on and as you point out what it's going to take is then merging that paradigm with about four other paradigms to nudge even closer to it and when you look at it from that perspective I don't know it's a big job yeah and we've got to be careful with all of this that when we're seeing the patterns which are actually very repetitive and they're very significant I think but we still have to be skeptical that just because there is a correlation with all these data sets that it is actually a causation because maybe it isn't the same exact mechanism that's behind every single one but I still think it's significant that we still see this pattern for instance of timelessness and non-locality within all of this within mythology, folklore within ufology within near-death experience science and within studies as well so great and I want to jump right back into the mythology thing because it's really kind of a hot bud issue for me but I can't resist before we go there do you have any examples from your personal experience as a researcher where this correlation versus causation thing did crop up I always think of the cave paintings and the initial thing is oh that's pornography you know that it's like they dig where they go well no it's not at all you know it's like anything like that in the work that you did where there was kind of this if not you someone else who had to do a major kind of oops just basically what I would say is that most of the people in academia now who are being paid to work they are extremely condescending of the ancient cultures and they are actually rewarded for explicitly describing these religions as superstition explicitly and this is such a huge prejudice that you're just assuming that it's nonsensical just fantastical ridiculous ideas that these people had and I've seen this I've seen people actually one person in particular that I'm thinking of he was rewarded given a prize for an essay competition a national essay competition in New Zealand for writing that the ancient religions were superstition so interesting that's such a great point because it fits perfectly this about this other thing we're talking about which has been kind of my gig for a long time as the main message being propagated is you are meaningless and you do not consciousness is an illusion and it's so funny that people in the humanities don't understand that but that would be the natural extension of that and it's also funny like we're talking about that like I look at the reincarnation research at Jim Tucker and I guess that's what I was kind of alluding to is like you know great reincarnation how about just using that just to completely break down this scientific materialism dogma and its implications for consciousness because this to me relates directly back to your point if there is this extended realm if a reincarnation is in fact the evidence for that is is strong then that guy no longer looks credible not that he ever did look credible but it I guess what I'm saying is doesn't a lot of the stuff we're talking about including reincarnation science including near-death experience science do you think that that part of the pushback on that is that it fundamentally undermines that guy you're talking about in a way that probably he doesn't even realize and that you know maybe that's really the game that's a foot without a lot of people knowing it with inside of academia it's always difficult to analyze what people are actually motivated by what their inner life is so I don't really want to comment too much on that but I think a lot of probably is unconscious with many of these individuals that they're so seeped in this world view of reductionist materialism and this meaningless universe and that it's just ridiculous superstition what the ancients were doing that they really probably haven't even heard an alternative view of this that like I just come at the whole past with this open mind that maybe what the ancients were describing was literally true or at least a kernel of truth of what they were experiencing but it's a radical idea but what if what they're describing in the religions and in communication with these entities which they were obsessively trying to do to get real world effects maybe they were actually connecting with some entities or maybe these myths that they're describing actually are some entities which are visiting humans and that it's not just nonsense that's the question that I have I'm open to this where it's most most academics are just completely closed right and at this point it's almost like we need to leave academia behind and scientific materialism behind because if it is an operation as we both kind of suspect if it is a PSIAP if it is a conspiracy then to kind of constantly refer back to it is almost serving its purpose to a certain extent so if we kind of lose that rocket and what are they could that stage of the rocket and leave that behind and kind of zoom forward I want to get right to your point because right when you said it from the beginning this is kind of a skeptical moment I'm uncomfortable with where a lot of people are taking the mythology folklore Jacques Vallée kind of stuff because Jacques Vallée of course was the first one to I don't know if he was the first one but is it I think he was I think he was the first one to really draw this you think yeah I think and he was definitely the most influential yes good way of putting it certainly the most influential and definitely one of the first people to draw this connection between folklore fairies other mythical beings and their striking similarity to what people are reporting as the UFO experience and the ET experience the abduction experience the contact experience all those things what I also point out is that you know Jacques Vallée I interviewed him he also walks around with a little bit of slag in his pocket from the UFO that he the ship that he has where it's a physical thing and he's put it under the microscope and said hey we don't know how to build this material we don't know how to manufacture this material we don't know how to fuse these metals together from a technology standpoint so he is standing with one foot in one world and one foot in the other world and that's where I think we all have to stand on this and it returns to my thing about reincarnation if we fundamentally don't understand consciousness then we have to be really careful about where we go with extended consciousness and I'll just tie a couple of threads back in without really winding them too tight because we can't I think the genetic engineering component of this is central and I'm glad you brought it up from the beginning I think the work of Bruce Fettin have you heard you know Bruce Fettin is I think his work is absolutely critical to understanding this and for also also for re-establishing a potential timeline his timeline is 800,000 years okay so what if we can show some evidence of genetic manipulation for the last 800,000 years for an ongoing process of genetic manipulation it changes the whole thing so dramatically and we're less focused on our little world and our little slice of time that that is being manipulated and shaped and then and injected into what do you think about all that well even the concept of time our perception of it is so limited it seems whereas these beings seem to be in this far more expensive reality of time and you see this in mythology as well of the gods that they're in this timeless realm and for them just the blink of an eye is for many human lifetimes and that they can punish humans for instance they can do terrible things on mass to humans causing global catastrophes generations after they've been insulted by an individual and this is explicitly talked about in the Greek myths as well of Esyod one of the most fundamental sources of Greek mythology along with Homer he explicitly states this that the gods have a different timeline than humans right and and I you know we keep we keep hitting on a lot of the a lot of the same things where else do we want to go I tell you where I want to go I want to see if we can get some degree of closure with the UFO ET thing by bringing it back to what we're experiencing right now and what we're seeing right now particularly as it relates to the control and the global control and the message and how the message is being shaped it is stunning to me that people even entertain really intelligent people really entertain this idea of disclosure as if as if it's a current event that happened when the New York Times released these videos from 10 years ago as if that is somehow disclosure I mean even in our memory in our living memory we have to scratch our heads and go well well wait a minute what about all those other cases what about Roswell what about you know all these cases what about the flap in DC all these I could go on and on but you get the point so I want to go there and I want to talk about that and bring the UFO ET thing up to the present but I want to make sure we leave some time to talk about the Romans because as I maybe mentioned to you I don't know if it was before after we started recording you have quite an amazing insight my little foray into that stuff that that kind of blew my mind so start with what's going on today with UFO disclosure so I basically agree with Marty Gaza from the brothers with a certain podcast this disclosure is so limited and actually just from my perspective just reading that document the unclassified version was just so insulting the language just as if the audience the idiots just hardly saying anything basically nothing sand which right now when you say that remind people remind people what you're what you're referring to there the document that you're referring to this was in June of this year 2021 of the duty of the U.S. government to release the information that was held on UFOs if I understand that correctly right and what a lot of people point out and rightfully should be but a lot of people don't make the connection is so this was introduced by Donald Trump in a bill that was tied to you know is buried in a bill that the government should have to release all information within 180 days and the whole thing was absurd from the beginning and it it kind of is disappointing to me the extent to which our community this broader community falls into the same game it's like we're watching the the sports channel you know either in Europe and the American sports channel is a sports channel everywhere in the world it's like hey what are we going to talk about today and let's talk about it and talk about it and talk about the same thing over and over again and there's no information they don't even have to program people to do that they just move the cheese a little bit and people follow that how could it be any more absurd why would anyone in the world think that they would release anything after 180 days they haven't released anything in 60 70 years or however long they've known about it why would they feel compelled to release anything in 180 days and I again I go back to the disclosure thing because I interviewed both Leslie Cain and Ralph Blumenthal who were the two had the byline on the New York Times big disclosure thing in December of 2017 2018 I can't remember now dates are flipping not in my head but the idea that forget about everything else forget about how we've threatened to kill people forget about how we've said we will take your family out in the desert and bury them alive if you ever disclose any of the things that you've seen forget all about that disclosure will now be this video that we just released and we'll have a bunch of talk about who was the guy piloting the ship and what do they know here it is such an obvious obvious kind of a ploy trick not even it's not even that sophisticated because the timeline is so restricted that it's just going a tiny bit back into the past and the number of cases that are unexplained is also so limited whereas even on 60 minutes there were pilots saying that they are over the carrier fleets they're seeing the UFOs on almost on a daily basis for years what does this say about the extent of the control of the message and the extent to which the population is easily manipulated by a controlled message to me it's it's it doesn't leave a lot a lot of hope I mean this is stuff that I think anyone should be able to kind of figure out pretty pretty easily and I'm surprised I mean you look I'm not even want to mention names because there are people I really like but the people I've had on I can just tell you I almost ignore this then just with this government disclosure business because it's just so obvious that they're just creating this tiny frame with which to understand the phenomenon but Nelson the question I'm asking is why do so many people in our community the leaders in our community buy into this and it's not even that they're buying into it they're just seem to be compelled to talk about this talking point of disclosure rather than going this is obviously a Psyop we don't know who exactly is behind the Psyop we don't know the the the entire method but completely political Psyop and you know you can go look at the shows that I've done where the leading people are going I don't think so you know Lou Elizondo even though he's a lifetime spy disinformation agent I think he's telling the truth this time I'm like what have we learned what have we learned you know in all this stuff that we've investigated absolutely and that's why I just just tend to look at the overall patterns way way back into history and just going beyond this frame not giving even this official disclosure attention really because it's so irrelevant it's only really relevant in terms of being a Psyop but it's not actually that relevant as part of the data set itself right so this is what I wanted to sort of draw back on is that even though it's disappointing right the the disclosure was going to be disappointing anyway for most people but it's disappointing the reaction of many investigators as well but I think if we go beyond that and just focus on the the data that we've got from all these different fields that your show has covered over the years and I think this is extremely significant that we have so many similarities and core characteristics of as we're saying in mythology and folklore and then even in even in mythology and then near-death experiences and then reincarnation studies and the chance that that would be a coincidence I find just extremely unlikely for instance even in near-death experiences if you go in the database and look up aliens or ET or something you'll actually see even that that these entities seem to be appearing will reportedly anyway in near-death experiences see the problem I have with that Nelson is most people including myself at times have problems resolving the data set of the current disclosure the UFOs the obvious our best pilots our best observers reporting them in the sky the videos of them in the sky the accounts of people who have a hard time resolving that with folklore mythology as we understand it and I'd say you know like I have a hard time talking to people if I don't want to talk about COVID and I don't mind talking about COVID I talked to him the other day he's a major broadcaster in Canada and you know and he I wanted to talk to him about the bigger spiritual questions of evil is there evil behind some of these people who we see are running this program he could not get there and I understand why he has his kids that he's sending to school that are encountering a mobile vaccination I don't care what anyone thinks about vaccination pro or con what he doesn't like is they have a mobile vaccination station and his kids are minors and they're said hey it doesn't matter if you're a minor it doesn't matter if your parents are consenting you can come on in here and you can decide yourself you know and it's against the law and all the rest is yet he is like consumed with this because he's a parent and he lives in Canada and it's just a trampling of laws and rights and stuff like that this is where people are at and I think there's a corollary to where people are at with UFOs and the corollary is well are they are they a threat what's going on what is going to happen in my lifetime is ET going to take over in my lifetime and I think when we hit people with the folklore mythology data set which is very real as you point out it is somewhat irresolvable you know you cannot resolve I just don't think it is irresolvable it's just the perception that it seems so complicated that it wouldn't be resolvable but even for instances Joe Atwell showed well had this incredibly paradoxical seeming data set of the New Testament and then just as one researcher just had this brilliant insight that Josephus was the template for the New Testament and researchers before him but I studied the New Testament as well myself and they this was the typical attitude before Atwell was that it's irresolvable the New Testament who wrote it for what reasons why are there these contradictions and it's so ancient that we'll never know but I just disagree with that I think you can have insights and you can see patterns like Atwell did for instance absolutely classic just in terms of analysis that he could find a pattern and he could so firmly establish causation as far as you possibly could I think is a research of antiquity and now even more and more of the mainstream even in academia they're just going with it they're not really giving him credit but they're they're agreeing with them so I think we can come to resolve analyses with these things I love it I love it so let me push that a little bit further let's try and connect a couple of these data sets I'll expand your your phrase there take the Bruce Fenton data set which I think is very important in my mind because he has some really good science behind that he has the astral tides and the dating of those he has a bunch of other stuff including genetics genetics very very powerful stuff so from that falls out a couple other a couple of things one calls falls out is a clear path a clear pattern of genetic manipulation and the other is a timeline that now extends back to 800,000 years but the other thing that fall that falls out of that that a lot of people don't immediately grab onto is a very kind of a faction divided ET and maybe species divided ET that we can certainly identify with you know hey this is my planet no this is my planet oh well I'm gonna shoot at you you're gonna shoot at me I'm gonna win you're gonna lose it sounds very familiar it sounds very familiar so you know back to my point of irresolvable so if we take those and run with it run with 800,000 years of genetic manipulation ongoing genetic manipulation which is consistently reported by abductees is it's all about genetics it's all about this here's where it doesn't resolve for me when I hear people talk about mythology they'll say like you said a while back they seem to be obsessed with bloodlines no I look at Bruce Fent and say dude they are so fucking far past bloodlines they're doing genetic splicing in a million different ways in creating all these different in their garden they're creating all these different varieties and they're pairing them down and they're doing all this stuff the idea of a literal bloodline and that you know it just is it's a very it's a reading of the folklore in mythology that doesn't get as closer in that way it can't really be resolved it can only be resolved when we say oh perhaps that's a metaphorical connection to what Bruce Fenton is saying but we should never dare take that literally that you know they're worried about who they're fucking so that they get the right offspring kind of thing yeah that's a huge can of worms right because was it just the ancients describing it laboratory style genetic manipulation using language such as bloodlines and breeding into breeding or was it more the laboratory sterile objective scientific manipulation of the genetics but just taking the ancients literally the gods in quotation marks were lustful sexually aroused by human individuals and mated with them right and actually this is what uh valet asked for tonight um begonia actually in that classic focus is on the continuum of folklore to ufology he doesn't actually go back into mythology but he does make the connections between between sorry folklore the witch trials and ufology and i actually just wrote this quote as well because it's so important that quote considerable problems arose however when one had to identify the physical process of intercourse with demons this is clearly a most difficult point and then he writes in brackets as difficult as that of identifying the physical nature of flying sources who wrote that and and that was valet that was valet's quote and he was referring to the theologians in the middle ages who were wrestling with the the implications that there seemed to be these entities these demons who were into breeding with humans especially human females and creating offspring even and how is this even possible is this some sort of physical process some sort of bloodline compatibility and when we use the word bloodlines and all the it's more of an old style of language right they didn't have that vocabulary to describe this but just looking at it on its surface I still think we have to be to be true to what the ancient and the medieval sources were saying it that there is this lust it seems to be there seems to be a lust of these entities like sexual desire of these entities for mating with humans so it's not just some sterile laboratory thing so I'd go a couple of different directions with that one that level of I don't know what to even call it but that to me that resonates with this extended consciousness realm that we're talking about those level of emotions to me seem most to most fit with the angels and the demons and the extended consciousness realm that filters through us so I immediately want to pivot on that and say hey what do we really know what do we really know of as lust and lust being this very human emotion but in so many ways it seems to transcend our humanness and that's both the allure of it and it's also the destructive element of it and that's been recorded forever so when we talk about E.T. with that I go back to my question what is E.T.'s near-death experience look like what is E.T.'s past life what is E.T.'s life review look like to me that gets us closer than reading the Sumerian tablets or reading the Anunnaki you know who say I was just hearing some of the other days an expert in the Anunnaki say yeah you know we tried the genetic I'm paraphrasing obviously we tried the genetic engineering in a clay pot but that didn't work so good so then they had to shift to you know and you read this something you go fuck man I mean if they had genetic engineering down to that I don't think they tried it with a clay pot I think they realized that might not work so well so that's why I mean where it's irresolvable and that's when we get into this whole other layer of false research or I don't want to call it disinformation but Sitchin for instance Sitchin's the one who translated the Sumerian texts for anyone who doesn't know and it's it's just being very much criticized his translations of certain words and that it's very much just leading into his pet theory of this and I just I don't want to go there too much because that's not my field but I just we would we would have to interject that over time some of Zachariah Sitchin's speculations have proven to be much more accurate than the original academic interpretations of it so we're in this no man's land that we kind of returned to of like yeah did he take it too far and did he misquote it yes but was he on somehow the right track in some way we don't know all right but yeah because just from my perspective just looking at as academically as possible I would just use the standard academic translations of these texts like the Enuma Elisha and these other like the Gilgamesh epic and all of these different ones and just use the standard academic translations which are accepted by everyone and you don't even need some specific special translations of words to just see just this overwhelming pattern of interbreeding between gods and humans and this is in in different contents even going right into the folklore of the American Indian 36 killer Clarks the professor of anthropology right and her reports of these that native star people star people is what and and at several books as well now and and it's just remarkable the continuum throughout time and even of beings that we would have encountered in mythology of these serpentine beings but even what David Ike has been passing on which he was just absolutely made a laughing stock of in the mainstream but what is this of a coincidence that you've got people these traditional people on the other side of the world in America were this relatively unbroken tradition of folklore and they're even experiencing these serpentine seemingly interdimensional metamorphizing beings that are serpentine and they seem hostile to humans and just as a researcher who's open minded you just you just have to take these seriously you just can't just pass them off as nonsense hey that's a that's a super great point and I think you I think you did I think you you won that one in terms of that's a very direct here and now example of where we are forced to resolve that we are forced which is your point we do have to kind of and that's what I think you're advocating hey that has to be part of your paradigm in a here now kind of world because as you point out if we go to the Native American tradition some of those encounters are not that they're more or less present day kind of thing or within a couple of generations yeah like her latest book I think it's her latest book the one on different seeming species of UFO beings and one of the sections on this is on these reptilian sort of entities which is shapeshifters and she's getting these reports apparently from veterans from Vietnam and from more recent reports as well so it's very recent all of her accounts and I just find her relatively trustworthy sort I mean professor or retired now but professor of anthropology and she seems to have put protocols for collection of data and not seeming to have leading questions unlike for instance what I saw from for instance the Betty and Barney hillcase way back in the 50s of the hypnosis that was done and there's the audio of this which is available on youtube that you can actually hear the original recordings and this hypnotist is asking extremely leading questions and is filling in even what the meaning of certain things are so I was just very impressed with 36 color book for instance on on these different seeming species of UFO beings if we can call them that in quotation marks and this is very strange right that there would seem to be these species these factions which are fighting against each other and that they're actually in their encounters with humans explicitly telling the humans that there are these factions of these beings and that they're fighting against each other and that some are extremely hostile to humans these reptilians and the which are also shapeshifters as well to at least some degree and these other species if we can call them this of these UFO beings which seem to be more friendly towards humans and even protecting humans from from disease and curing people and taking them away from war zones for instance and I just see this pattern over and over again of factions or species of these UFO beings which are in conflict with each other and humans seem to be in the middle of this and quite unwitting and even quite minor players in the whole cosmos and this is actually exactly what we see in mythology that humans are actually very minor in the scale of the cosmos and the different species if we can call them that of these gods in conflict with each other for instance and in Greek mythology it's between the the Olympians and the Titans and there's this great struggle between Zeus for instance the king of the Olympians the leader of the Olympians and Prometheus the Titan who is aiding humans it seems giving them technology giving human technology and Zeus being so that's so angry at this that he tortured Prometheus in perpetuity and then you've got in this fragmented Hesiod who was one of the most important sources of mythology it explicitly detailing how Zeus decided that there was too much interbreeding between the demigods and the gods and that this was becoming a danger to the purity of the bloodline of the gods and that he he was going to wipe out the demigods whether these bloodlines are if we can call them bloodlines so it's it's very much a pattern again that we see in ufology these factions who are fighting amongst themselves and humans seem to be in the middle of this and just small players and then you've got mythology basically saying the same thing hey let me let me jump in there that is that is wonderful and I see where now I see more clearly where you've been going all along and I just here would be my pushback the interesting part of the discussion we can have to me it seems like a one it seems like a why evil matters kind of question it also seems like an as below so above kind of question in terms of we see the same thing within ourselves and within our culture people who are deemed as less worthy less valuable and we've done this throughout our recorded history you know these people can be ignored these people can be butchered killed in all sorts of ways enslaved all these things so this idea of there being this hierarchy that we impose that is beyond any kind of moral imperative of some ultimate highest form of the consciousness is it is always that question and maybe I'm not being direct enough so the point that I would make is do we think consciousness is hierarchical are we willing to speculate that there is a hierarchy and that hierarchy would point to something that we would identify as God and I think that most of our wisdom traditions would tell us along with the science that I see like the near-death experience science is telling us that the Prometheus is a head fake the reptilian alien is a head fake in the sense of if you think that's God you've kind of missed the point the point is they're going to have a life review too and they have a soul and their soul is on some kind of journey that we can't understand and this is why I'm even reluctant to go there because we can't really talk about this stuff in any meaningful way but at the same time I think if we don't talk I think that's a limiting belief I think we can we just need to look at the data and if we look at near-death experiences it's undeniable that there's a hierarchy of souls shown there all the way up to what you could call God and we see this in the mythology as well they're talking about hierarchies it's extremely hierarchical so we just look at the data and the data shows overwhelmingly that it's not egalitarian there are hierarchies and in these wisdom traditions and these extremely internal meditative traditions in Tibet and in India we're seeing exactly the same thing as well let me just interject here because I want to get your thought on this the way I read that from a lot of the Indian tradition and the non-dual tradition is that what we're what we're really looking at is confusion is misunderstanding is less than full learning and that if we did look at it more broadly and I'm just throwing this out as a hypothesis is that that kind of hierarchy is attuned to our consciousness down here but that the ultimate reality is that we're all just bubbles in the ocean and there's a lot of bubbles in the ocean and every time a wave hits there's a bunch of new bubbles don't get too hung up on your bubble and don't get too in Prometheus man that's a big bubble but it's just a fucking bubble that would be the non-dual philosophy that we're all kind of back to that sorry to interrupt that this is the biggest debate in Indian philosophy right and the danta of dualism versus non-dualism and qualified non-dualism so you've got these mixtures of of viewpoints right but I just think look at the data right and the data is showing that there are hierarchies so I just think you've got to somehow get around that you could say that there's something beyond that but to just deny that there is hierarchy within the NDE experiences would just be to just falsify things right I just want to be clear about that then let's agree on that and see where that takes us because sometimes what I hear you saying and I hear this in the mythology folklore you know shape-shifting alien kind of thing is an assumption that that hierarchy is different than I would assume it to be so when I look at Ted Bundy and I look at somebody who I think was being influenced by beings in the extended consciousness realm I'm not sure where to put Ted Bundy in that hierarchy when I look at the people who are behind some of these global control mechanisms that seem to be imposed on us when I look at you know the a viable matters the Annika Lucas sold into a a satanic ritual abuse called at six years old by her mother I don't know what her how her mother fits in the hierarchy I don't know how the people who brought this child to a mansion and were the highest ranking the European rulers and raped a six year old I don't know how they fit into this hierarchy but I would suggest my gut instinct is that if we're thinking of it as purely a human hierarchy we're kind of missing the point and I would say this similarly that if we're thinking of the reptilian who's raping the abductee which we hear about in the et encounters as somehow fitting into this hierarchy and we're going to slot him or her in there or there I don't think we have the ability to do that in a way that is reliable I agree because we just we we currently look into the minds of these individuals right we have to also leave open the possibility that there is direct entity possession of people and this goes way back into the ancient past and we wouldn't even know where to slot those entities I can even give you some some point here which I actually wrote down for shows because we didn't really discuss much of this we're just really opening cans of worms here that according to wikipedia on spirit possession I'll just quote the sentence quote in a 1969 study funded by the National Institute of Mental Health spirit possession beliefs were found to exist in 74 percent of a sample of 488 societies in all parts of the world so 74 percent of societies that's a great that there is that's a great quote wikipedia finally pays off yes and I just think you just got to follow the data with these things and there's too much speculation too much philosophizing without really getting the feet firmly on the ground of the doctor itself right but but I'm going to drill on this a little bit further I'm suggesting that that data again is even when we creep closer to it it's all about exactly what you're doing is that the data moves us closer to being a little bit less wrong we're always going to be wrong but a little bit less wrong but where I see a lot of people going with that and it seemed like you were with me and you agreed is that the implications that are unclear the implications of where we would slot the demon that's possessing someone in the hierarchical structure is unclear to us just like it's unclear where we would slot somebody who is out there living right next to us that you're going to walk past the street that is an advanced human being of a spiritual order that we can't really understand maybe that person would be slotted like way way up there I don't think we know and I think we we make the mistake when we assume that that this order is somehow within our grasp I don't think it is now I agree I agree with that because how do we even define what is a more evolved being if we can just use this hierarchy as a structure we've identified this in the data but how do we even define what is then a more advanced being for instance the typical ancient religious view was that especially in the east in India and in Tibet was that the the more advanced being was just just beyond the physical and it released the attachments of the physical so to speak and was in freedom from the chain of birth death and rebirth but this is going to open a huge kind of worm tear because I haven't actually heard anyone say this before but I was reading about what Carl Gustaf Jung the psychologist wrote about his UFO experience because he wrote a book on UFOs as well and he relates a dream that he had where he was by a lake in this dream and it seems very very vivid and real and on the edge of the lake there was this light which was obvious to him who largely became a UFO and from this this UFO came this beam of light and it shone on him and somehow he had this intuition this feeling that he Carl Gustaf Jung the individual was actually a projection of the UFO so that he was created by the UFO and this to me was absolutely mind blowing when I started thinking about this because I respect Carl Gustaf Jung just his his audacity just to open up these these more hidden fields and just his experiences to relate them and it just seems so bizarre that a UFO would actually be creating yourself your own ego your own physical body and then I started to wonder was this to get back to the very beginning was this reincarnation experience and quotation marks that I had was this a projection some sort of telepathic sort of reality that I saw that was completely controlled by this UFO but how do I actually know that this was real what I saw maybe it was just like seeing a movie a film by this UFO of something that it wanted me to see but it has no basis whatsoever in reality like as a historical reality I'm totally with you and I really appreciate where you're going with that historical reality again that that is just another looking glass another lens through which to look at and I guess I always come back to this point all the data all the data sets we have suggest that we have the most disadvantaged viewpoint of all this shit right so it's like if you're going to process that back in the here and now reality everything we have tells us man you're kind of at a loss like people who have transcended experience and say I knew everything I knew the answer to all the physics questions I could even ask in my head they immediately came to me and then I came back and I don't have it anymore I had you know unlimited telepathic and spiritual powers and I don't have them anymore so I just think I just got to check myself check you when we come back and say okay now I'm here now in this time space reality and I'm contemplating what young wrote in his book it's like cool but realize we're really at a disadvantage when we do that absolutely I agree with you there but there are other just looking at it at this level of recollection right that Jung is recollecting what he was experiencing and I'm recollecting what I experienced and I can say as well like Richard Dolan the he had an excellent video recently on the psychology of aliens and we can just let's just call them aliens for now right you can I prefer the term UFO being because it's more open but but he just made the amazing point that these tall graves that they they seem to be really scary if you just think about it but so often these experiences are reporting that they are feeling these overwhelming feelings of love and Dolan is just making just putting these two together and just saying like how is this even possible these people are experiencing more love reportedly anyway than they've ever experienced before in the presence of these tall graves and this this just to me just shows that these beings seem to be able to manipulate our consciousness our feelings to such an enormous degree for instance Ray Hernandez another example who you've interviewed he was going down the stairs and just had this thought put into his head seemingly just as his nonsense seeing this UFO down with his wife healing the dog and he just walks up to the bed right and it's just so controlling it's extreme control that's a screen memory by the way you know I I was stumbling with the term that's a great example of a of a screen memory or an implanted thought if we take into consideration this data that these UFO beings are extremely telepathic and control people's thoughts and feelings and actions to such a huge degree including overwhelming feelings of love that they've never experienced at such a degree that we have to leave it on the table that maybe NDE's are also a manipulation that it's not the foundation of reality that it could be the UFO's manipulating our consciousness while we're somehow loosened from our physical bonds totally totally a possibility it just doesn't add up to me it's like the super sigh explanation for after death communication it doesn't really make any sense if you if you think it through because it doesn't fit the reported phenomenon that you hear all the time it's also like when I hear about the simulation theory that we're living in a simulation you know in the same thing I would say here we are they are somehow projecting a feeling of infinite love and oneness simulation simulation of what what are they simulating this is again this is now outside of time and space it's outside of our physical emotional you know brain-based experience chemical kind of thing right because near-death experience we no longer have a brain we no longer have a body to process it at a biochemical level so if ET is doing that what are they simulating to me I would read it as they're simulating something that Israel is authentic and they're trying to co-opt it in some way possible or for instance that there's a layer of say a field of let's say Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Resonance Field let's just say just sort of hypothesize this and that it's something so subtle that we can't measure with our current instruments but that somehow we are then experiencing reality so to speak within this within this layer of our consciousness but it's not the ultimate foundation of reality and that somehow these UFO beings are able to manipulate this more subtle reality and give us experiences which are so vivid so real seeming and filled with so much emotion and it is still on this sort of intermediary level between physical normal consciousness and the ultimate foundation of let's say some idealistic universe of consciousness is immaterial and completely free of material see so again you know a possibility and certainly something that has to be thrown on the table and considered as an explanation for some of these cases it doesn't to me fit with the overall data on the near-death experience experience because one thing I always try and remind people of with the near-death experience is you almost have to bifurcate it into two parts one is is it evidential of extended consciousness and you go boom boom boom over and over again okay it is so back to this getting past scientific materialism we're there from that then can we make certain assumptions can we begin to find patterns in the stories in the accounts and I think we can again you reference Jeff Long statistically you start seeing patterns that you can't totally go there but you can say hey that that doesn't really that seems to be pointing towards something you know I always reference the Netflix Excellent Special Surviving Death I think is the name of it by Leslie Cain again who did a fantastic job but the opening scene of that six-part series on Netflix is this woman who her name escapes him right now but she's become quite famous she was a doctor and quite an quite an accomplished doctor and she was kayaking down in Central America and her kayak turned over and she was underwater for 20 minutes and she died and she had a near-death experience classic near-death experience the crux or the real kind of point of her near-death experience is she reaches a point where many indie years do where she actually has a choice again this speaks to the issue of free will philosophically the choice shall she return to her life as she knew it or shall she stay in this other realm she chooses to return as she's walking out the door and this makes no sense to me I don't know how to make sense of it but this is her account as she's quote-unquote walking out the door I'm kidding they go oh by the way your son sorry but he only has 10 years to live so she returns and her husband and her are living with this which is unimaginable to me you know having kids that your son has 10 years to live but they're like we don't know you know life is life is a mystery who knows and this and that 10 years pass and they're like cautiously celebrating because he hasn't died within several months he walks out into the street and is hit by a boss and is killed so that account to me doesn't sound like E.T. and the hundreds and hundreds of other accounts that I've read don't sound like E.T. they sound like more what we'd identify as genuine compassion genuine love genuine experiences of the highest order of feelings of this spirituality that we all experience at our best and most profound times that is uplifting and the counter to that I think would have to fit inside of some other paradigm so if there is another paradigm in which that would fit then I think you have to offer some kind of explanation for how that would work and even what would be the goals of such a paradigm and all those wind with me sounding very materialistic sound very much like well the aliens needed to collect gold to get their atmosphere back they sound so not spiritual that they are almost a non-starting point okay I I agree with you on your analysis of the data just on the data of the NDE's right we can establish that with enough security I think that that is a genuine pattern that there is this love is hugely important and that there are hierarchies that there's God let me just add I have to add one thing because it's an important distinction it's not a feeling of love right because it can't be a feeling of love because when we use that language we're talking about a biochemical reaction inside of this biology that we walk around with and these people and it's an important point from the near-death experience we know they are relieved of that of of of those requirements they no longer have a physiology that could process that biochemical reaction so we would have to speculate on that whole level as well yeah that speculation as well because we could call it a sensation or a well what could we even call it I don't know but I think it is a it's an assumption that you could experience what we could in quotation marks called feelings in these outer body experiences and in these non-corporeal experiences because we're just assuming that one can't but I know I know this is the reported experience of these people that they can't feel for instance the same sort of drives that they of fear and things that that they seem to have had before but I still think that they can feel certain things for instance love and sometimes fear and yeah but Nelson I'm saying it more from a kind of nuts and pulse materialistic standpoint if you're going to drag along the whole biochemical reaction inside the body and the inside the brain which people want to do that is gone so whatever you're going to speculate about whoever it is you're saying can still experience the feelings you're going to have to leave behind all the neurology all the physiology all the biochemistry associated with what we commonly talk about as experiencing feelings you know and you know what I'm saying yeah so we just have to be open I think to the possibility that when you're in these altered states of not being corporeal that you're you can still sense certain things certain longings as well for instance see loved ones again and I just think it would be close-minded just to assume that certain sensations are only physical such as love or fear or longing because it doesn't seem to fit with the data Well, but my point is once you get there then kind of all bets are off because now you're talking about your shapeshifting reptilian and you just have no your you have no way of really talking about what a shapeshifting reptilian is when we talk about you experiencing what you're you experiencing what your brain is setting off in your head that's one thing and if we talk about that shapeshifting reptilian coming in and raping a loved one of yours we can talk about that but as soon as we shifted that other realm again kind of all bets are off we don't even know what your experience is anymore We can't directly establish causation right? We can't really establish that but I would just go back to this looking at patterns again and this is going to come into the sigh out angle of things and that if you look at what Richard Dolan was describing of the tall graze and the reported experiences of these people of overwhelming love and you compare this to the near-death experience reports of this overwhelming love and then you look at for instance the New Testament and it's all about love love is all that matters and yeah it is very much just on this Jesus character that we also look at the counterculture in the 60s 1960s with the Beatles all you need is love and I just started to get a little bit suspicious of this why is it always just love why is it only about that and not about for instance material accomplishments in this world why is it always just love and I just started to get suspicious that this was some sort of sigh out and I'm not saying it is I'm just throwing it out there as a devil's advocate right so the only thing and this is going to hopefully get us into this kind of last topic that we want to talk about because I want to talk about the Romans I want to talk about the Christian sigh up and I want to it's been an absolutely terrific chat Nelson where do we go from here where do you go from here are you writing about this publishing any of this or is it just cooking up there in your brain it's it's in the cooking mode at the moment and I'll I'll be in touch with you after the show and I'll send you some links as well okay I don't even have a website yet so but I'll I'll give you some links of I'll start some things up as well because I am planning on actually writing a historical model and I've like even David Matheson and our discussions with each other he recommended I wrote write a book and I really appreciate his work by the way David Matheson so I don't want to be too harsh on some of these great thinkers and researchers great well it's been terrific and thanks again Nelson we'll we'll stay in touch all right thank you very much it's been a pleasure thanks again to Nelson for joining me today on Skeptico the one question I tee up from this interview is what do you make of Nelson's suspicion about love in the extended consciousness realm I love the the pullback the paranoia the conspiratorial mindset it's so importantly refreshing from a from an academic from an academically trained real philosophy from a from a really deep thinker academically trained deep thinker like Nelson it's quite refreshing and I think it took us in so many interesting ways but what do you think about his theory let me know come to the Skeptico forum like Nelson did and make some brilliant comments I'd love to find you there until next time take care and bye for now