 Hi, everyone. Welcome to our next keynote by Dr. Katamari Rosa. So, just give me one second. Yeah, perfect. So, Dr. Katamari Rosa is a professor at the Institute of Physics at the Federal University of Bahia, where she is the local physics coordinator of a federal teacher education program, PIBID in Brazil. Her interests involve research and practice in physics teaching and additive manufacturing. Dr. Rosa grounds her work on feminist perspectives, critical race theory and decolonial thought. She's interested in discussions involving the intersectionality of gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity, and socio-economic status in the construction and teaching of science. Dr. Rosa is on the board of directors of the Brazilian Physics Society. She's also a member of the American Physical Society, the American Association of Physics Teachers, the National Organization of Gay and Lesbian Scientists and Technical Professionals, NogelStop, and the Brazilian Association of Black Researchers, ABPN. She coordinates a large national project for building an oral history archive of black scientists in Brazil, and is one of the founders of the LBS STEM group, an organization for lesbian, bi, and trans women in STEM in Brazil. I also wanted to add something from my side. Dr. Rosa is a very dear friend and her work has really transformed the physics education research community in the U.S. So it's quite an honor to have Dr. Rosa as one of our keynote plenary speakers. The title of her talk is, Who's the Negationist Now? A Decolonial Perspective to the Post-Truth Debate in STEM Education. I will not read out the abstract. I have copy pasted that in the chat. And with that, Khatimari, please take it away. Thank you. Thank you, Ayush. Thank you, Deepa, and all the conference organizing team. Thanks for having me here, for inviting me. As I was mentioning before we start here today, I'm sorry, I couldn't be attending more effectively. It's a whole conference, because I have seen so many interesting work that you are all sharing. But I will try to look more of the work you all are doing. And I'm talking to the people who are here in the session right now, because I have seen some of the papers, like I went to the poster session and I tried to look some things. And it's just great work. So I'm really happy to be here and honored. And I appreciate everyone who took the time to be here today. Afternoon for you, morning for me. And so for us to talk a little bit about Negationist and STEM education. I am Khatimari, as Ayush said, and a professor of physics at the Federal University of Bahia. And I always like to start a presentation talking a little bit about where I'm coming from so you can understand a little bit about myself and why I'm presenting, what I'm presenting. By the way, you can find me at Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, everything, but Khatimari, which is a different name even in Brazil. So it's easy to find me by my first name. And please you can call me by my first name, Khatimari. My preferred pronouns are she, her, hers. And now it's about, let me see, 930 in the morning in Salvador, Bahia, that's northeast Brazil. I'm a dark-skinned black person. I have like shoulder length, reddish hair. I'm wearing this aviator-like prescription glasses. And I'm wearing a colorful, mostly orange, short sleeve dress with African prints. I have been working with physics education, more specifically with pre-service physics teacher education for a while now. And my work is grounded in critical race theory and the colonial perspectives. I do believe races is a problem in our society. And when I say in our society, I mean in Brazil and most places of the world. So these theoretical lenses, they help me to look and to analyze a variety of scenarios. So that's where I'm coming from to talk to you. And today I will have like three points, I'll bring three points to discuss. And for the number one, I want to start looking at the idea of truth and past truth. So first, let's look at one idea of truth, the one that comes with the modern and contemporary concept of science. This is a science that values reason from the Greek logos related to the idea that the use of reason that we should get data, connect them, calculate, measure things, compare. Reason is connected to thinking and seen as an opposition to opinion, to feelings. In science, we're supposed to value reason and to move away from feelings, right? We learned that. Science is using thought, moving beyond appearance, to arrive at the reality, at the truth. That's what we've learned that science is. But then something new happens and we arrived at the post-truth era. In 2016, the Oxford Dictionary defines post-truth as the word of the year, saying that post-truth is an objective relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are last information. In shaping public opinion, then appeals to emotion and personal belief. So here comes an era that would be challenging those scientific values that reason that truth, right? But when we think about the scientific truth, it's important to question who are the people that organize these two systems, right? And other questions that come to mind are, is post-truth going to overcome a truth? Or even who has the right to speak about these scientific truths or about science truths? Perhaps, and I would say more importantly, who has access to the symbolic material and symbolic cultural goods that science promotes? It's not hard to see that a power, that there is like lots of powers in play in this dynamics to define what we think about truth or what truth is or what is not. And on this slide, I have an image, so it's a cartoon from the New Yorker. And its display is sort of like, you know, TV contest setting. So in one side we have a presenter and the other side three participants on this stage. And on the back, there is this screen that says facts don't matter. On the cartoon, there is a quote from the game show presenter saying, I'm sorry, Jeannie, your answer was correct, but Kevin shouted his incorrect answer over yours so he gets the points. So those who speak louder, those who hold capital symbolic or not symbolic, they get to say what is correct and what the truth is. And now I want to move to our second point today on how science and races, they were born together as products or perhaps as foundations of modernity. And I want to add that please feel free to ask questions or if you're thinking about something now, we can discuss later during Q&A. But if you're thinking about something now, you can write on the chat because then you are not going to forget it. And maybe I'm also kind of looking at the chat a little bit sometimes. So if you look and if you write and I have a chance to see your question, and there's something I can address I can already answer while I'm talking so please feel free to talk. I know this is a panoramic talk, but I always enjoy, not enjoy, enjoy is not the word, but I think it's important this interaction, especially when we are in a virtual setting that I'm not seeing you I'm not, you know, filling the presence of you really near through the camera. So please feel free to say something. So, I, okay, so I'm going to address this right now about the modernity and racism and how I see this being forged. That's a great question. So, modernity and science, and I'm going to talk about modernity and science and modernity and racism, and then maybe I'm going to clarify this, this question that was asked about not having races before modernity, and then we can talk about it later. So scientific disciplines, there is strongly grounded to the principles of the scientific revolution, right. This spirit is understood as a set of cultural social and philosophical transformations that mark the beginning of the modern era. Modernity was largely guided by the discourse of reason and truth. And during that time, starting in the 15th century, that the expansion of Western Europe takes place, along with the colonization of the other, the non European. Modernity was not just a contra position of self, but a creation to forge power relations. Africans and indigenous people were dehumanized from their own existence, power and ability to think. And for the concept of race emerged during colonialism, in which Europeans started to classify the colonized people as being of another race in fear of beings less human. The colonizer classified people into races through phenotypic characteristics. When I'm talking about races. That's what I'm talking about. It's about those power relations that are grounded on dehumanizing others. And they are mostly founded in this division of humans and then thinking less humans through their phenotypic characteristics. And the colonial logic was that those people who did not have similar characteristics as those of the colonizer, they were rationalized. While the colonizer, they became the standard, so they were the ones to be compared to. They were the universal and they were the superior being. The superiority logic had a geopolitical impact. And that was across the globe. And that's why I was also saying at the beginning that races is a problem. Not just in Brazil. But in the world and it's one of the things that is and thinking about critical race theory, which is, as I mentioned, part of the way I see the world, analyze the world is connected with the way our society nowadays is organized in terms of capital and economic and political structure and that needs this power relation for racism to exist. So it's everywhere. It's not just here or there. It's across the globe. And more than a sense of superiority marked on the bodies. There was an systemic superior logic. And in the social, historical and scientific imagination of Europeans who arrived in the new world. And that's what we call for this new world with old and new in the colonizing logic, driven by their knowledge and technologies, black people were the void of thought. So they couldn't at all think we, and I speak as a black person, we were represented as people with one eye headless and horn with marked phenotypic characteristics such as, morphology and skin color, hair, texture, nose, lip shape. Because of those characteristics, black people had to be scientifically in fear, you know, it's, it's not, it was not possible to think that these people that had, and they depicted as animals, animal in a, in a devalue way, right, not thinking as animal as all beings as animals, in a biological term, but animal as fear as non human. I'm sorry for the noise. Kenny, is the sound okay? I can use the mic because there is. No, we can hear you fine. I mean, I can hear you fine at least. There was a truck passing nearby. I'm sorry. And so we had to be scientifically in fear, right. So what the colonial logic made was not just to transform black and indigenous bodies as animal bodies as less human. But then to transform those people and those bodies as devoid of thought, therefore devoid of the possibility of creating science, of creating technology, of being intelligent. And, and that was the truth. So that, that, or that is the truth, but that was the truth, but that is the truth through these lenses. So that's what this colonial process made. And, well, but what is truth, after all, right. And here we are. It's 2022. We are two years now into this. No whole coronavirus pandemic we are having this conference online so much has changed. And it feels like it has never been so much talk about science in the public debate, right. We listen to in the news and people everywhere talking about science all the time, and about people believing you are not believing science or trust and about what we can have as truth or not. And we have the vaccine, lots of vaccines now. Everything has changed. I mean, I don't know if everything has changed. I'll take it back. Some things have changed in the past two years. Lots of progress have been made in science. And still, for reasons such as fear and ignorance. There are also plenty of narratives that make emotions and personal belief, more influential to shape public opinion than objective facts. And I'm thinking again about the definition, the Oxford definition for post truth, right about what is post truth, and about how our emotion and personal beliefs, they, they change objective facts. That has been a concern in science for some time now how to have people believing in trusting in science. But my third point is that this concern with the dangers of post truth in science. They could not, they cannot, they didn't at least break the barrier of an era centric science. The fear about mistrust in science has not been addressing the creative facts, the alternative truth by science. So, we still have a problem with posters, even though we have in science and in science education and in the public debate, talking about post truth and how we are going to address. We talk about science outreach or science or public engagement, public engagement of science and we talk about having science for everyone, the importance of people understanding science and the importance of educating everyone for science for understanding science. But then we are still not discussing and addressing the issues and the, the truths that science have invented. And we have learned some truth in life. For example, we learned or at least I've learned since childhood, I, and several other people it's not just me in the world. That we call, we spend our entire lives talking about the old world. And we call Europe this place, the old world. Even though we know that humanity emerged in Africa, we call that part of the world, Europe as the old world, but there is an older world. But still, Europe is the old world. And Europe is also when people travel from here from the Americas, for example, to Europe, we say that, oh, we are going to the cradle of civilization. That's an expression that's very common to say that Europe is the cradle of civilization. And still, we know that for a fact. And that is with the data we have so far that humans, that the first humans, they, we started in the place where we now call Africa. That's not called Africa. And we, and when also when we talk about this idea of civilization, the cradle of civilization. There were several civilizations before that before Europe in other places of the world. We perfectly denoted that the university appears in Europe in Bologna, specifically, but if we do like an easy internet search. You're going to see that the first university in the world was in Morocco, in East Africa. So there are some things that it's really strange that even though we know, even for things we know, and things we have as a fact, we still have a hard, very hard time to establish them as truth. We have this alternative thing. It's a psychological, very complex thing that coloniality plays in our minds in our process as individuals and as a group of people, how we see the world and what we establish as truth. And the more than those lives, there is knowledge that has been stolen. So, for example, the idea that astronomy is born in Greece ignores the knowledge produced by Babylonian, Assyrian and Egyptian people. They had, for instance, knowledge about calendars based on celestial movements. And in this particular example, there is more than that. The Egyptians, they adopted a calendar that was based on a year of 365 days, and had records of the movement of the star series, which correspond to the annual Psycho-denial river floods. So it amazes me so much that this kind of knowledge is not the knowledge that we, at least, and I'm talking here very much based on science education in Brazil and in the United States that is what I have, what I'm more familiar with. So, our school systems, they don't teach those things. And I haven't learned those things while in school. And I have an undergraduate degree in physics, I did a master's, I did a PhD, and I didn't learn those things in any of those degrees, never. So that's very strange, isn't it? Like, if you're thinking about science education, then as someone who's been trained to be a science educator, as myself, as I was, how come I have never learned that in formal settings? So I would never be able also to teach those things in formal settings. I had to look and to learn about those things after. And that was after trying to look and go after this knowledge. So this is about crediting. And yes, and I'm sorry if I'm going to already address here that South Asian and East Asians, they are completely neglected in this talk and you are absolutely right. And you know why they're being neglected? Because I really don't know much about it. And I know it exists. And I don't know much about South Asian, East Asian, even knowledge from the Americas. So we have a lot of knowledge that I know that existed before. And I don't have access to it. And it's really, so I'm focusing very much and that's why also when they started talking about where I'm coming from. But you're absolutely right. I really don't know. And as I was just saying, for me just to learn those things. So I'm talking like as a physicist and a physics educator to learn about this calendar and those things that Egyptians did and about how they learned the patterns of serious that was just after all my formal education. That's absurd. As a physicist, as a physics educator, I think that's too much. It's incredible. So this is about crediting it's about giving credit. That would be to attribute humanity to non Europeans. Now if they were going to say that those people that were not Europeans had all this knowledge and produced all of those they would be humans like Europeans. So that would be such beating humanity. And although colonial times have passed in most countries, not in all countries, the mentality, the ways of knowing and the social relations. They were maintained. So it's I cannot say that well in Brazil, for example, now we are in the country for so many years, but the mentality and the ways things are established here, they are very much similar to the times of the colonial period. And that is what we call coloniality. So the maintenance of these practices of colonial times. And here I argue that we need to go one step further to think of post truth in science and science education and consider how emotions and feelings that come from coloniality. They have science become a post truth reality. And so what, what do I mean by that. I'm going to bring here a few examples and they're really just a few to show this post truth pyramids. And I'll see more of those examples and a larger discussion on that paper whose post truth, whose post truth produce facts by racist science. It was published in Portuguese. So if you read Portuguese or if you want to start to recommend speaker. And on the slide here, he on the screen. There was this, an image of a triangle symbolizing a pyramid, and it's divided into layers, the structure of this pyramid is such that it has objective facts in the base then public opinion and the produce facts, symbolizing the post truth mechanism. What I call post truth mechanism. Okay. And here I have this, this particular slide there is a particular saying there's this male presenter figure, and one is saying that reminds like the car and the same. I think therefore I am, and it's saying that that's truth, like a truth column. I am and the other says post truth. I believe therefore I'm right. Okay, so here I bring one pyramid example, we have objective facts on the base of the pyramid. One certain month, compile and analyze evidence that records the construction of vessels by African people and the crossing of the Atlantic Ocean to the American continent before the period of the so called great European navigations. The historian, the lady, may the first known reports about exploration of the Americas in his on the new world book. And he described the encounter of Spaniards with Africans who are red lived in the region in quality, quality, which is today Panama. And he attributed the presence of Africans to probably accidents with pirate vessels in the mountains. But when was certain that he analyzed the presence of Africans on the continent. He saw that it wasn't accidental there was, they were planned and there was exchange of fruits grains and handicrafts between the continent. So these are objective facts, but the public opinion due to anti black racism, the beliefs of inferiority of black people justify the idea of African people would not be capable of building ships and navigating through a notion. And to produce back. Then is that Europeans were the first to cross the Atlantic Ocean and to discover the Americas. So we create that. And here I bring a code from the lady a book. But I will skip this one but it's a quote from the book. So it's, he wrote that he that he saw this encounter. And here I share another pyramid and just this one. There are other examples, but I'm going to, I just brought this to for this talk. And this has an objective fact is that the Egyptians were Africans and were black people. They also master engineering architecture and construction technologies. But the public opinion how that the African people were black. Okay, but since Egyptians had so many engineering masterpieces, they could not be black. Black people were inferior. So they were incapable of doing such things. Therefore, the produced fats were the widening of Egyptian people. And shake on the job. A city the least intellectual train in philosophy and chemistry by the sort of one and he received his doctorate under the guidance of Bachelet and he was specialized in nuclear physics. He was with Frederick Johnny, johnny, johnny, and the spy, all this training. He, he was really hard for him to have his research accepted. And his research was talking about a study on how the agent population was had dark skin rescuing and exposing produced facts. It's not without criticism. the basis of the negation of objective facts is anti-black racism, the more difficult it is to bring objective facts into the debate. There are several theories about the presence of the American continent before Columbus and after pre-history. However, one of the most accepted theories is that of a Nordic presence, while that of an African presence receives a lot of criticism. So, and there is this scholar, Hoslet Beda, who also questions the odd species about Egyptians being black. So what are the reasons for this denial other than these appeal to emotions that stem from anti-black racism? And I'm going to do this as a, I said that there were three points, but this is like a bonus point just to add a little thing more if I have, how much time do I have? I think you can take another eight-ish, eight to nine minutes. Yeah. Oh, okay. So it's going to be less than that. It's just, so this is like a bonus thing for us to think that to look how coloniality may impact the philosophy of science and consequences for stem education. So here we have a picture of, this is Thomas Young that some of you may know, it may be familiar with. So on the screen there is an image of Thomas Young and an image of a book Last Man Who Knew Everything. And it's, this is the same young from optics, some engineering, it's this Thomas Young. And some of you may know, it's also credit to Young, the first approach to decipher the Rosetta Stone, thinking hieroglyphs as more than pictorial language. And I don't know if the pictorial is the right word for that, but I'm going to use pictorial here. But by pictorial, I mean using symbols. So people used to think that your hieroglyphs were symbols which meanings were connected to a thing, an idea, an event. So people didn't think those symbols, they could be a way more complex language, but Young did. And he considered the symbols would be a phonetic expression. Phonetic is more complex. And I'm not going to extend myself on the cracking of the Rosetta Stone or the Young relationship or lack of relationship with Jean Paul Young, which was the French who deciphered the Rosetta Stone, but to focus on how a low expectation of complexity of a language delayed the deciphering of hieroglyphs. And you may think, okay, this is something very old, but we were talking, you know, 18th century. And this image here, this one that's on screen. This was recently discovered in the British Museum. And it's subject of a book launched in September 2020, which is the riddle of the Rosetta Stone. And the book that the authors they discussed, some of the other things, the mathematical approach that Young used to crack the Rosetta Stone, they say that while other scholars, they had seen the material, they didn't see the significance of it. So Young's notes, they're not a novelty. They were there for a long time. But other stories of science, they overlooked the importance of these notes that were connected with Egyptian people. And with all the complexity that, you know, it offered to understand and develop the coding of systems, which is something we're interested, right? And when you look at physics education and STEM education, then I ask what other things we are not looking at, or you're not finding out, you know, what is the extent of the harm caused by a coloniality? What are our responsibilities as STEM educators, as, you know, historians of science, as scientists? What do we have to do? How do we change things? And finally, I repeat my questions. What other reasons for this denial, other than the appeal to emotions that stem from racism? As educators, one of the ways we can act in fight against racism is through our scholarly work. And so I would say that for us here, maybe, and to STEM educators, historians of science, scientists, for us to think and to ask ourselves in which ways our work is supporting colonial values. Because it's very hard to not support colonial values sometimes. You do that un-wantedly, you know? It's very hard. It's something, it's an exercise. It's an active exercise we have to do all the time. So that's one thing I would like to leave today for us to think about that. And here we have Maat. It's a reference to the, so on the screen there is this image of this dating Maat. She, so she is a reference to the Asian-Egyptian concept of truth, balance, order, harmony, law, morality, injustice. And she was also the goddess who personified this concept and regulated star seasons and the actions of morals of the deities. And I say that because Maat was in many of the images of this presentation. And I wanted to thank everyone and to say that also here in the bottom of this slide, I'm going to say that because I had a hard time learning to do that. So this is my name in Asian-Egyptian. So it's written in Asian-Egyptian, this symbol here in the bottom right of the screen. And I would like to talk more in the minutes we have left here in Q&A. And I saw there were some messages on the chat, but I missed this last one. So I'm going to catch up now and thank you. Thank you so much, Katamari, for that wonderful talk. And thank you so much for your kindness. And so let's open up for questions, folks. You can write your questions in the chat. You can raise your hands. And while folks are taking a second, Katamari, I wonder if you also want to catch your breath and read the exchanges in the chat and feel free to respond to it or not. But yeah, that way everybody gets a chance to write questions and you get a chance to read that. Yeah. Yeah, I was just reading here about South Asian contributions to science and discussions. And then I just read here like programming contributions. For example, someone wrote that. And for example, and I'm really sorry, and this is being recorded and there's lots of people here, so you're all witnesses and it's going to be recorded as I said. I don't know what programming is, for example. And that's another example of things like not knowing so many things. Yeah, in a way, our education systems are so focused on teaching us colonized knowledge that we don't also learn about other cultures. We don't get those chances. Folks can type. In the meanwhile, I had a question for you, Katamari. And that is your pre-final slide with the three questions that you listed. Very provocative questions. Yeah, if you want to flash that back. Yeah, that one. And sometimes really provocative questions can be hard in the sense that people find it difficult to imagine what possible answers could be or where to start thinking along these lines. So I'm wondering if you can maybe help us make sense of these questions in concrete ways, either by sharing examples or sharing what could be starting points in particular. Thanks for this question. I think that as an educator, as someone who's in the classroom and someone who is in, as I said, I work with pre-service physics teachers and this program I work, we go to high schools and I work in school. So I'm very close to schools, like to actual schools, not just doing research. And one thing that I really appreciate is like, what can I do in my classroom? Because I know that that's one thing that teachers, I usually super concerned like, okay, but I said all those things and what do I do now? You know, what can I do in my classroom? And I'm a firm believer of, and perhaps also because of my background of, you know, experiencing rescuing movements. I'm a firm believer of small things that we do and small actions that we do in our practices, they are very important. So it's not that we need to do things thinking about like, I'm going to change the world and now I'm going to change science and even little things. And you mentioned in the beginning in my description, you said that I'm an additive manufacturing enthusiast because I'm a 3D printer because you're not seeing the other ones that are here, but I enthusiast. And then there's this one thing, for example, since you asked and since I'm home, I can show you, for example, just a very simple thing that I developed because of this work that I showed you all thinking about it. So using 3D printing and thinking about, I developed this game and then I learned, I studied, remember the symbol, I said, oh, this is my name. So I actually started a little bit of pathology and how to write the symbols. And this is my handwriting for all the symbols. So these are little pieces that I made for kids to play and to and to learn, you know, coding and you're learning also Egyptian, ancient Egyptian writing and it's about phonetics here. So it's not the symbol and it's coding. So thinking also later about what that means and the symbols. And it's just a simple thing, but there was the whole thing about prototyping, thinking different ways. So this was the previous way I thought, but then I thought, well, if I'm going to work with kids, then they may break this thing and that it's complicated, they can chew or something. So the prototyping thing. And, but all of this is connected. So it's all, what it has to do with technology. I teach something else. I'm doing like, I mean the major space, what it has to do with the colonial stuff it can have, it depends on what you're doing and for whom. And you know, so even like the smallest things or it's a change of way of thinking and seeing stuff. So we can do things in our day-to-day and the things we already do. And as I said, it's a constant and active exercise and I'm very sure I do lots of things wrong. And I will keep doing lots of things wrong, but every time I will learn to do something else and something new or and we learn with each other. So what I hear you say is that, you know, like if people have to learn about this, the hieroglyphics, they don't have to like sit through some kind of a long and boring lecture in a way, but also you're repurposing sort of like a technocratic device, like a 3D printer, right? But instead of printing out little car parts, like if we can do something different with it. And these are like starting examples towards more sort of like radical explorations of these questions, right? So we can start from where we are. Definitely, yes. Did I understand that right? Yeah, definitely. Because I think that because it's important to think that you can do things in every level, you can do that from the level of your research, you can level of your classroom, the level of your, the way you interact with the students, you know, just from like personal relationships, a relationship with people. But there's so many levels. Yeah, but okay, so let me ask you a follow up on this. Isn't there also a danger and we are seeing this already in US, we are pretty much like everybody wants to lay claim to decoloniality, right? Like everybody wants to lay claim to decolonial work, right? Like so people will have some little discussion somewhere and they'll be like, we have broken follow for areas banking model just because kids had a discussion, right? Like now we are in liberatory education space. And similarly decolonial is being used. So what kind of things are critical to be included for something to be approaching physics education in this different way? Because otherwise, people will say we have been decolonizing since 1980s, right? Like when physics education started. So physics education research started. So we don't also want that. So I'm curious to your response. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I have an answer for that. I think I can think out loud with you all here about that. And I would say there are some critical things and one of them is this search for all this knowledge we don't know. And there are two things. One, we have to change the people who are part of the spaces because it's not like just the same people who are already there that, oh, they're going to change some practices. It's like we're entering the spaces. So people who have been marginalized, historical marginalized, they have to also be part of these spaces that produce what we call scientific knowledge. So that's one thing. But also we need to rethink what we're calling scientific knowledge because it's not just about bringing people, historically marginalized people into science to do this oppressive mainstream science. It's like to change what we consider a valid knowledge. So I think these two are very critical things. So what we consider that's valid. What kind of knowledge do we bring to the classroom, to our research? Do we value it? Yep. No, that's a really important point because so often we see equity efforts as like keeping science as static and just sort of like somehow we can get more people into that same same stuff that is leading to climate change, the pandemic, wars and destruction in a way. But the continued coloniality that you were saying. Yeah. Someone mentioned dealing with care, right? And the comments. And I think, yeah, this is one thing too about personal relations, but also thinking, considering a variety of possibilities to engage with people. Now that this is the only possibility to, this is what practices are. This is what the practices are. This is like the way, so I see sometimes also a formalizing way to do good. It's like, oh, it has to get this way. Then we say, oh, we know steps. We institutionalize some ways to do good practice. It's not organic. It's not how we do certain communities. Okay, so last. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. The last question is by Ishan. It's a long question. So I should read it out and then you can read along. So Ishan says, colonialism as a historical dominating factor and colonialism in practice are few of the primary concerns to us as STEM educators or researchers working at different parts of the world. Do you think there are different types of colonialism, colonial domination and practices which work in tandem, as opposed to the unilinear view that European colonialism was decolonialism with the capital C. As anti-colonial researchers from India, sometimes it might feel that other types of colonial forces like Brahminical caste hegemony, queerphobic patriarchy, monolithical state could be taking up all our times of engaging in the challenge of radically eradicating these forces. What are in your views these non-European colonial forces in your context of works? And let me just quickly add, you said the Brahminical term was unknown to you, meaning roughly Brahminical system. In the Brahminical system, it defines upper caste and lower caste. And there are lots of differences from race, but there are also some parallels. So you can think about Brahminical hegemony as white supremacy. Okay. Okay. Like caste system I have heard of, I didn't know that was, so this is like, I can say that, oh, when I hear caste system, that's what people are talking about. Okay. So there are two questions in there? I don't know. I think, I think I will try again. I'm just talking with you here and being with you. It's not something I have an answer for that. So we're thinking together. But I guess I would, my first reaction would think of that in terms of, so getting from my experience as a black person navigating anti-black races around the world. Because it's different in different parts of the world. And people, black people in the diaspora, they have also different experiences. However, we still sort of not unified, but we understand and we can see similarities and we can understand races even if it's different in different places. We get united by this black, anti-black races, even being different in different places. So I would get from that experience to talk about this non-interpreting colonial forces, to talk about colonial forces in general, that they might be different, but they, for the colonized, the experiences are very much similar. You know, the oppression, the feelings of oppression and the experiences we go through, they are very much similar. So I think I would go that way. That made some sense. And I'm not really explaining it, but I'm sort of making an analogy with my experience as a black person. And I don't know how to name this feeling, that this shared feeling, you know, about this experience of being, of having the sad of anti-black races. But I would say that's the same experience and feeling of being the sad, the locus of colonial forces. No matter if it's a European or non-European, it's oppressive. Yeah. So, I think you're urging us to move beyond sort of like trying to match up whether the details here of actions match the details there of action, but rather if we flip the question and talk about how did peoples of the world experience colonialism, then we'll also find, you know, shared sets of emotional experiences, the affective aspects of the experiences will have resonances. Even though the social material ways in which the colonialism manifests itself in different parts could be different, the categories might be different and so on and so forth. I want to give space for one last question and then we'll have to close this session and that is by Shweta. And Shweta asks, I don't know how relevant it is here, but what are your opinions about cultural racial appreciation versus appropriation? When we talk about bringing representation in science education, is it even relevant in science education? So this idea of cultural appreciation versus cultural appropriation, and is that relevant to when we think about representation in science? I think that it's one of those layers of, I don't know, discussions or oppressions. I don't want to say layers of oppression, but of sometimes like priorities we put and then that to the extent, and I'm going to be perhaps very graphic, but to the extent of extermination of bodies, you know, like people being murdered daily, for example here in Brazil, black people being murdered daily and it's extermination really. Then when the discussion about cultural appropriation, for me, it becomes, it is important and I'm not saying it's not important, but it becomes less impactful, if this word exists, because I create words when I don't know how to say, it's, you know, it's less important. I don't want to say less important, because it's not less important, but less, it has less impact to this whole picture. And I'm saying that because you're talking about something that's very present here, I don't know if you know, I don't know if you have a familiar one with Brazil, but it's a very, it's a discussion, it's like a sort of hot topic here every now and then about, you know, here we use lots of black people here use turbans and then, and braids and then there is all this talk about women and white people using braids and turbans and then there's all this talk about cultural appropriation. And then you're like, okay, you want to wear this, you can wear this. It is cultural, it can be, but wear it. I don't care, just let's move on the discussion and focus here. It is important, it is, but there is another one that's more important. And I'm thinking about this because this is something that we discuss a lot here. So I don't know if that's something you discussed there as well, a lot, but by your question, I assume it's something that's present and it just goes to connect to the other question before that experiences are very similar in different parts of the world. And yeah, but anyway. Yeah, I think it is time though, we need to bring the session to a close. I'm so sorry, it's not in person. It would be lovely to have you in person another time to try to make sure of that. Folks, you can unmute yourself and let's give a good hand to Dr. Katemari Rosa. Yeah, switch on your cams if you have that ability. I have the last 10 seconds possibility for me to see some of you. If you have the ability to do so, you can switch on your cameras so Katemari can wish you'll buy. While that is happening, an announcement tomorrow, our first session opens at 5.30 p.m. So you have the whole day free and our first session will be at 5.30 p.m. evening, Indian Standard Time ISD. Okay, thank you so much folks. Thank you all. Have a great conference. Bye. Thank you. It was very nice. Thank you.