 And, you know, we said earlier that the negrado often occurs at the beginning of the work. And it was commonly understood that the work progressed in these three phases, the negrado, the albedo, and the rubedo. And I want to read just a little bit from Jung about where he talks about how the negrado becomes the albedo, because I think that's kind of where we are right now in the conversation. He says, the work is difficult and strewn with obstacles. The alchemical opus is dangerous. Right at the beginning you meet the dragon, the catholic spirit, the devil, whereas the alchemist called it the blackness, the negrado, and this encounter produces suffering. In the language of the alchemists, matter suffers until the negrado disappears when the dawn will be announced by the peacock's tail and a new day will break and that's the albedo. So it is the suffering that turns the blackness into the whiteness. I would add that it's the conscious suffering of that that makes it alchemical versus instinctive, perhaps, that we know what we're struggling up against. And so when we first begin to feel uncomfortable and aware that something is churning but we don't know what it is, Jung referred to that as the emergence of the masa confusa, which is a word I throw around all the time. Masa confusa. You like saying that, don't you? I love saying it. It rolls off the tongue tripping away. And it just means, because it's a big confusing mass, you know, and if we think about it as a big roiling cloud with all kinds of images just halfway poking out of it, and all kinds of feeling and lightning bolts, you know, zinging around it, that we come into this interstate where we're boiling but we can't quite put our finger on the problem yet. And I think all of us can associate and remember moments at least where we felt that way. And if we can stay attentive to it and not go back to sleep, things begin to emerge, which we normally don't like to see in ourselves, but which can, by the way, be very valuable. And then we're on the path of change. If we can put our hands on it and not let it go. You writes very movingly about being in this place of the Masa confusa and the Negrado. And he went out in the morning and sat by the edge of the lake and Zurich and built little houses and so on. He was lost. And he said that he needed a point of support in this world and that his family and professional work were that to me. And I think I want to offer that up as that there is also that in the Masa confusa and in the suffering. What do you have? What needs to be done? You need to go out and get some groceries. Is there a meal to be prepared? Is there a phone call to be made? Is there a room to be cleaned? There's always a room to be cleaned. And he says his family and profession always remained a joyful reality and a guarantee that I also had a normal existence. What is the next step? What is the next thing to be done? What can you put your hands on or put your voice to that you could do right now? In AA, the advice given is just to do the next right thing, which I really love that. It's very practical. When you're lost, you're confused, you're depressed, you don't know which end is up. What is the next right thing to do? Even if it's just cleaning the bathroom. But it's lovely. It's lovely and it's grounding. And I think we have lots of examples of that. You feel what you feel and what is the next right thing that you can actually do. I think that the image you're bringing forward, Deb, for me rightly belongs to the Albedo stage and particularly one of the images of doing the laundry. That I feel like in the conversation we keep slipping out of the negrado into the next stage because sitting in the negrado is hard even in our conversation to just circumambulate around this particular emergence of what we don't want to see. Not necessarily how we'll cope with it, not necessarily what comes next, but just in the discomfort of what we're seeing. That that actually is transformative and if we solve it too quickly, I tend to become suspicious and we can go into a cleverness, a clever solution so that we don't have to feel uncomfortable. And lots of therapies will do that very quickly. Oh, we'll do thought and searching. So don't think about that anymore and choose three thoughts that actually are comforting and relaxing. And every time you have the uncomfortable thought, just go to the comfortable thought and just shut that down. I mean, there's a lot of advice around that. And the reason we like that advice is that we don't like being uncomfortable and nothing in us wants to suffer. So sitting in the negrado is feeling that we cannot escape the reality that's emerging and that we must sit and brood on it and look at it and not go away to something else. And the question that I would ask is, what am I being brought down to? Yeah, I mean, I think one aspect of the negrado is that it feels, it does feel inescapable. You may want to escape it, but often you just really can't. You know, it punctures your defenses. And I like your question, Joseph, what am I being brought down to? There is a humiliation that goes along with it often. We have to admit that we thought we had it all figured out. And guess what? We actually doubt. And I think that that is true on an individual level. It's also true on a collective level. We did not think we could be laid low like this, I don't think. But the global economy could just be cut off at the knees just by a virus. I think that's so important, Lisa. I think about just several months ago, this great debate in the United States between whether or not we should put more energy into the welfare state. And by that, I mean the social safety network. Should we fund universal health care? Should we strengthen social security or Medicare Medicaid? You know, all of the safety nets of our culture. And that was met often with a kind of bravado that one would never need that. If you plan correctly, you should never be dependent upon some kind of an agency or anything that is governmental, that we're all kind of, you know, pioneers in the 1800s. And what's happening now with this sudden emergence of shadow and one of the pieces of shadow is dependency. That there is this enormous feeling of vulnerability in the American psyche and dependency. And then this crying out for a kind of parental caretaking response from the government that was vilified just several months ago, even gleefully vilified. So this goes to your comment, Lisa, of the humbling that's required in this case to admit dependency and vulnerability. Yeah. And of course, this relates also to this idea of the relativization of the ego. And Edward Edinger, a union analyst who wrote a great book actually on alchemy, it's called Anatomy of the Psyche, a Chemical Symbolism in Psychotherapy. He talks about this concept a little bit in relation to the mortificatio and the negrito around King Lear. He early in the play, he is kind of so sure of himself and so sure of his own authority. And over the course of the drama, he loses authority, power, and control. And then, of course, he loses his dear daughter. And he undergoes this total mortificatio and of course goes mad. But it's in this negrito that he is transformed because he gets a glimpse of the transpersonal psyche that he is now willing to serve. And I've sort of been paraphrasing Edinger there. But I think that's a lovely example. And perhaps, Joseph, you'll accuse me of slipping into the albedo, you know, kind of where it goes. But I think it is always going somewhere, too. Exactly. That's what I have been thinking about is how important it is to think about where this might take us. And just to begin to even imagine it, where is the telos, where is the trajectory?