 Think Tech Hawaii, civil engagement lives here. Oh, welcome to Out of the Comfort Zone on OC16 television with Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host, Arby Kelly, and I am so, so excited for our guest today. I'm actually fan-grilling over here. So one of the things I love about this job, working for Think Tech, is that I get to find people that I think are awesome, that I think are cool. Then I get to sit down on live television and have a conversation and ask them all of my questions. So our guest for today, we are forgoing the book of the week. We are forgoing the body language tip of the week because this person has both. This person is actually someone I want to grow up to be like. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. So introducing Mark Bowden. Hey there. Hey Mark. Great to be here. Hey, thanks for having me, Arby. It's fantastic to be here. Thanks for having me on your show. I'm really excited. So Mark, our viewers have no idea what you do. Could you just explain it a little bit to them? Yeah, so I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I travel all over the world helping people stand out, win trust, gain credibility every time they communicate. So I really do a lot of what I've seen you do as well, Arby, which is you're helping people make the best of themselves with the body language that they can use on purpose. I also talk with people and coach people about how they can help judge better other people's body language as well. Also with a better understanding of themselves and their own body language. So that's what I do. I love that. Now I actually, when I was just new as a trainer, one of the first presentations I saw on body language was your TED Talk, Mark, about what did you call it? Oh yeah, so the importance of being inauthentic. I saw that and I loved it so much. So if you haven't viewers, if you haven't had a chance, I'm sure you haven't seen that TED Talk, but you should. It's something I share with all of my clients because I think it's fabulous. But that, could you just go into that briefly for a second, Mark? Yeah, so that TED Talk is really about how important it is for us to put on some behaviors in order to get a better relationship with others around us. There's a lot of talk right now and it's not bad talk at all about authenticity and how important it is to be you, essentially. I kind of take a counter point of view, not because that point of view is bad, it's just the counter point of view is entertaining and there may be some validity in it as well, which is that we're designed really to be different to the majority of people on the planet, apart from our closest friends and family and closest colleagues. And if sometimes we don't act and perform or cause ourselves to have behaviors that make the best of ourselves and also suspend our judgment about other people so that we can see them as more potential friends, we'll miss out on some great people, essentially. You know very well, Abi, because I know you talk about it a lot. The idea of we get judged all the time and I know you talk a lot about your personal brand as well, I think, and that you've got to be seen, you've got to be noticed, you've got to do something that causes you to stand out. And so this is what this is really about in terms of being inauthentic, is that you have to stand out and people who don't stand out for you, you've got to suspend your judgment about them and be more inquisitive and more curious about them. We might miss somebody amazing. So that's what that keynote that Ted Talk was about. I loved that Ted Talk and I think that's absolutely true in real life. I know all of our viewers, you've met people who you instantly dislike or you've met people who you instantly like or you've met people who you instantly forget their name and their face or that they ever existed. And when that happens and you don't know why or how it happens, you end up making bad first impressions, you don't get what you want, you don't live up to your full potential and you miss out on awesome people. And so I think you're absolutely right, Mark. This is why it's so important to be able to engage people with your first impression, be able to capture their interest and capture their attention in order to build something better. You can't build it by yourself. Yeah, sure. And listen, I've got no problem with the judgments that we make about each other. Some of those first judgments are absolutely correct. But the important thing is to test them out a little bit, be a bit more curious, you know, wonder, you know, this person, they felt really bad for me, but is that really true? Should I get to know them a little bit more? Now the only thing I would say about that is if you or I or anybody out there ever find ourselves in a situation where we don't have a lot of power, where we're, you know, in a risky situation and we do get that gut instinct of, this person is not good for me, this doesn't feel good, then pay attention to it, okay? Get out of there. Get out of there as quickly as you can. But if you're in a comfortable situation and you're okay and you've got, you know, friends near you or you know, you've got access to some way that you could call somebody else and it feels a little bit odd, give it a little bit longer, okay? And get, you know, just get to know the other person a little bit more. You can go back to your initial judgment of, yeah, I don't like them, they're not good for me, they weren't nice, okay? But listen, if you're somewhere where you don't have a lot of power around you, you don't have a lot of agency potentially, then you get out of there as quickly as you can. I think that's really powerful, Mark, that you make that distinction because what a lot of people do is they say, either first impression is totally right or you're a horrible person for judging people by their first impressions. And so I love that you put that middle ground of safety and how it's important to have that safety. Right, because that judgment system, it's your safety system. The only reason, you know, you're alive, I'm alive, you know, our viewers are alive right now is that we at times have made some spot on gut instinctual judgments and they've saved our lives. You know, all of us here today. I think all of us have a story like that or at least someone we know does. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, if you don't have one yourself, you know one that somebody else, as where they're like, yeah, it felt really bad and it turned out, you know, that person turned out to be a mass murderer. And you know, there are people with those stories. But listen, the majority of the time, that's going to be the case. The majority of the time, actually, we're gonna meet a lot of people and we're gonna feel that they're just not important. You know, they don't seem like a friend immediately. They don't seem like an enemy immediately. We're not sexually attracted to them immediately. So our instinct just goes, who cares? They're not important. And we do it then. I've moved on to somebody else. Yeah. And the chance is that you miss somebody, really incredible. So be a bit more inquisitive. I think the other side of this, Arby, is how do you produce non-verbal communication body language that may attract people into that friend category so that people talk to you more, wanna kind of do business potentially with you more, wanna spend more time with you. And you and I know that there is body language you can do that has that effect on people. Absolutely. And that's something I teach my clients. I don't know if you do coaching clients, but I know it's something you teach. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I have individual clients who I coach, who are anything from pre-new entrepreneurs in business to, I've got 4,500 CEOs, presidents. I've got prime ministers of G7. So there's some extraordinary people that I get to coach, whether they're new and they've got a new great idea or whether they're running a country sometimes or running a large organization. And I'm teaching this stuff, which is how do you stand out? How do you gain that trust immediately? And how are people gonna see you as credible or you've even opened your mouth? Because they're making that judgment immediately about you. And then they're re-engineering the content to fit their judgment. They're never listening to you. They're judging you. And based on their judgment about you, they're making up the best idea of all the worst idea depending on the judgment of what you said. And I think it's so funny how our brains truly twist the things that people say to fit our preconceived notions. Like if we decide someone is a jerk and they make a nice comment, our brain can still interpret it as them being sarcastic, as them being rude, as them like having some subtle hidden meaning just because we've already decided that they're rude. Right, so we're judging people all the time just like they're judging us. And really that's what this new book, Truth and Lies is really about, which is how to tell what people are really thinking. It's about how to tell even better about what you're thinking about other people. Because ultimately, other people happen in your head. I mean, I know you're actually there at the moment, Arby, I know that you can feel yourself when you're there and internally, you know you're there. But for me, you're happening on a screen right now, that's happening in my head. So I've got all kinds of great and very positive judgments about you. You're doing very well in my mind, but you're all positive at the moment, yeah? But essentially, that's in my head. It may not be, I mean, I have no idea what's going on in your head now, but I know my judgments about you. The question is, is how would I get to know more accurately what is really going on in your head and put that with my judgments about what's going on? Get the two closer together because that would be the closest that we'd ever get to reading your mind. There are no mind readers out there. That's a magic trick, a party trick, a con that might be done on you if you're unlucky. We can't read other people's minds. We get theories. We get what's called theory of mind, an idea around what's going on in your mind. For us, it always feels very, very true. My theory mind feels very, very true. Even if it's totally off base. Yeah, absolutely. If I think you're happy, you know, it's a theory, you're happy. That's, you know, that's what's going on in my head. If I think you're angry with me, that's how it is. And if you tell me, well, no, Mark, I'm not angry with you. I go, well, yeah, but you are in it the way and I'll make it for you. But you'll say, Mark, I said it was great to be here. I said, well, but you didn't really mean it, did you? So I'll make up a whole bunch of stuff. The key is, is how do we get closer? My idea of you and what's in your mind and what is actually in your mind, how do we get that closer together? As you were saying that of, yeah, I'm happy to be here, but no, you're just saying that. I was envisioning so many different conversations I've heard between couples, between employees, in the office, in new meetings, and you hear these judgments all the time and people just assume, assume, assume, but they're so off base. And so it sounds like your book was written to help people get closer together to where they're really on the same page. Is that right? Right, so yeah, so that's exactly it. And the reason they're off base is that their instinct has read the body language and the instinct is not a brilliant reader of non-verbal communication. It's good, it's really good in life and death situations. It's really great, but when things get really nuanced and complex, it's not that good. It'll tend to default to very negative ideas. It'll tend to get confused and catastrophize. So we can have some really important work situations with some very nuanced relationships going on. And we're defaulting to very black and white ideas about people, oh, they hate me, they hate my work. Oh, I've absolutely got the job. Have you ever had that, where you've gone for an interview, we've all done it, I've done it for sure, you go to an interview and you're like, wow, that went great. They were loving me, they were loving me. And the day happens and then the next day and then the next day and it's like, I, where's, there's no email from them. They have a call and a week goes by and it's two weeks. It's like, I aced that interview. Now, where's my job, where is it? And we read it completely wrong because there was a whole bunch of nuances going on. And we just went, it's the case of, I've got the job or I haven't got the job. I've got one signal, you know, which was CEO passed me in the corridor and gave me a huge spell and said, it's great to have you here. And you take that as a goal. She does that with everybody. She doesn't even know who you are. As you were saying that, I have imagined, because neither of us have always been in body language. So I was imagining back to when I was like working for other people and I was like, oh my gosh, I remember that. Yeah, I did that. Yeah, I did that. So for our viewers, if you're thinking, oh, I don't do that. Yeah, you do do that. So the truth in life is full of stuff you've done. I've done. We've all done all these situations where you truly think you know what somebody else is thinking. And again, I would say, yeah, but, but sometimes you turn out, you know, you were accurate. Sometimes you were inaccurate. Sometimes it was in between. You absolutely remember that you were very accurate and you go, that is, I am a brilliant body language reader. I'm a brilliant judge of people. You remember the times that you were inaccurate and it was catastrophic because you go, I just don't know people. I have no idea. I thought it was this. It was so different. You know, I got to re-judge the world and everything else in between, you forget. You just, you forgot that. So it's full of all those situations. And what we do in the book is unravel what is it that triggered you into the strong feelings of I know what's going on and how accurate it is using these triggers. You know, how accurate are these language signals? What we all use, all that we read on the internet and how much actual data do we need to make a really good decision? And is there actually a process for making a good decision? I would say there is. It's actually critical thinking. You put aside your instinct for a moment and you start a critical, intelligent thinking process in order to get closer to the truth. You can't know the truth, but you can get closer to it. And it may be actually that you end up going back to judgment and you go, I thought this one out and I was right. They hate me or I thought this out. I was right. They're really attracted to me or I thought this out. I'm really one of my family members is lying to me. So it's full of all these scenarios that we've all been through and certainly we've heard stories about. I think this is so cool. This is so cool. And viewers, we are gonna be right back. So stay on this channel. Don't go away. We're just gonna take a really short break. See you in a bit. I'm Ethan Allen, host of a likable science on Think Tech Hawaii. Every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m., I hope you'll join me for a likable science. We'll dig into science, dig into the meat of science, dig into the joy and delight of science. We'll discover why science is indeed fun, why science is interesting, why people should care about science and care about the research that's being done out there. It's all great. It's all entertaining. It's all a joy. It's all fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's entertaining. It's all educational. So I hope to join me for a likable science. All right. Welcome back, everyone. We are here with Mark Bowden, who is a renowned body language expert. Now, it was my plan to have his book here to model for you and like do a book review, but it's still in the mail. So sorry about that, viewers. But Mark, could you tell us a little bit about the book, a little, maybe some of the stories or some of the tips from the book? Yeah. So actually, let me start with one of the stories that opens the book, which is a story by a friend of mine, Paul Nadeau, who is a interrogator, essentially police interrogator, has interrogated murderers. And in the story that starts the book, there has been a murder and a gang member has been brought in. And it's his job to put the gang member on the lie detector in order to get the truth out of him. And actually, he gets the truth out of this guy without ever putting him on the lie detector. Now, I'm not going to tell you the whole story because it's... But this is the important technique in there. When you're watching body language, what you're looking for is changes, is changes. How does somebody change state? It doesn't tell you anything other than this is notable. That moment where they changed, something happened in the environment. It could be a question that you asked them. It could be a thought that they had. Something happened in their environment whereby there was an effect on them. It may be worth going back and talking about that and seeing if you're looking for deceit, for example, you're looking for, do they stick to the story that they were telling you? Or does the story change as well? So in Paul's story, I think great that is telling us how he makes this potential murderer very comfortable and wins over his confidence and then hits him with the question of, so you got violent with the guy and you killed him, but you thought you were doing the right thing for your honor. That's how it happened, didn't it? And what Paul says is that the guy's body fell to bits. So that's what he's looking for, is where you've got a good liar, but the pressure of the situation means that they can't control their body anyway. They can't counter-measure their real language or save guilt or fear or remorse. They can't shut that off from the world because they've lost control of the body under that pressure. So I think those are a couple of interesting things from the book. Look for changes in people's body language. And also, if you're looking for deceit, how can you create a situation that put people under a little more pressure so they're not so in control if you want to spot a lie? Now, viewers, you could not see, but as he started talking about police interrogations in this story, I was like, on the tip of my seat, like, because that is so cool, that is so cool. I am seriously fan-grilling over here, but I know from a lot of our viewers, Mark, most people are thinking, how on earth do you get into this? So what was your journey? How did you get into body language? Yeah, so I'd be interested in how you got into it as well, Arby, because there's no real one way into this area. There aren't many of us who are in this area. There certainly aren't many of us who get really, really expert in this area. For me, it was I was really obsessed and amazed and curious about animal behavior and human behavior, just biology. Just why, you know, why does that animal do that? Why do they live the way they live? And then for human beings, it was like, why did that human being do that? Why did I do this? And then they reacted in this way. You know, in a way, maybe it came out of confusion. Maybe it came out of a sense of not having power, of going, I'm confused, I don't understand it. Or I do this and then, in order to affect this change in somebody and they don't comply. You know, how can I get what I want with people? So I think I came from that. I then got into visual art, performing art. I was very interested in how we tell stories with pictures, how we cause people to change the way they're thinking and feeling with pictures that they make. And I just, in terms of body language, I just tried to read more than anybody else and talk to the other experts out there, just like you do, like, and get the experts to talk to you. You know, anybody who's out there who you think, you know what they're talking about, get on the phone or back, you know, email them and just go, hey, I'm so interested in this. Will you talk to me? And I was very fortunate in that, you know, everybody who I wanted to talk to would talk to me. In fact, you know, in truth and lies, I have my body language heroes have written some contributions for it. So we've got people like Alan Pease, who you'll know from Australia. We've got Jonah Barrow in there. And I called Scott Rouse, who I love. I mean, we go, like, 10, 15 different experts in human behavior, body language and some animal behavior and handwriting experts as well and cultural experts who've contributed and make the book much richer because of that. That is so cool. And I'm especially pleased because, Mark, you're one of my body language heroes. So I'm like super, super, super excited that you are even on the show. Because I reached out, OK, viewers, how this happened is I saw Mark's new book on LinkedIn because I was following him. And I commented and was like, hey, I'd love to feature this on my TV show. And he was like, yeah, is there anything else I can do? And I was like, there's no way he's going to say yes. There's no way. But you could be my guest. And that's really how I said it. I was like, you could be my guest. And I reached out and he was like, yeah. And we made it happen. So I'm really, really excited you're here, Mark. Well, of course I'm here because you have to. I mean, yeah, I want people to be interested in the book. But the reality is, even if the book, where this new book wasn't out, I'd be here. Because we all need to speak to people who are genuinely interested in this area. There's great knowledge out there. It's got to be shared. It's useful knowledge for people. So of course, I'll come on your show any time. I'll be here next week if you want. So, you know, and if there's a lesson there for anybody, if you have people who you want to talk to, who you're interested in, take the risk and go, hey, talk to me. You know, will you talk to me? Will you tell me about some stuff? Will you listen to what I have to say? Most people out there are genuinely lovely people. And they'll help you out. So here I am. Well, thank you, Mark. I am really excited you're here. Now, we've got about two minutes left in the show. Mark, is there any last minute advice you want to give to our viewers? Yeah, so if it was advice about, you know, how can you use your body out on purpose to stand out and win trust and credibility? Always just think about doing more open body language. Always think about maximizing more than minimizing. When we're under stress and pressure, we'll tend to minimize, you know, exactly. And when we're more confident, we'll tend to maximize to make ourselves a little bit bigger. That looks great. That looks perfect. So the more you can maximize, without encroaching on other people's territory, the more confident you'll feel and the more confident other people will be about you. So if you take nothing else away from this and that, maximize the extent of your body language rather than minimizing it. And viewers, Mark is actually in Canada right now. But I am here in Hawaii. And I see you. And I agree 100%. Make sure you are spreading out. Claim more space. Be more open. Be a little more vulnerable with people. Because that is one of the things that will win them over for you. We have a lot of trainings here on the island about how to win friends and influence people. But what you say is not nearly as important as what you do with your body language. Yeah, that's absolutely true. All right, thank you, Mark, so much for being here. Viewers, we are just about to close up. But Mark, I am thrilled you were here. Thank you so much. I've been a great interview. Thanks, RB, for having me. I'll be back any time you like. Yes, I'm counting on that. See you later, Mark. All right, see you, viewers. Bye.