 him? Or Max, I mean? Who's, who's Sam? Max? Sam and Max? Little rabbit? Yeah. For a second, there was like, why would you know Sam and not know Max? I don't know it. No, that's that's my rabbit from my comic books. Oh, cool. Okay. I just saw like the tiny picture on Discord. I'm like, it's Max. Oh, is that yeah, did you find it from my YouTube channel or something? The picture? The little rabbit? I guess I'm already. Oh, yeah, I figured. Yeah, I think that's my YouTube picture. I thought it was a strange head, but they were holding their hands behind their back facing outward. Do you see how I gave you guys a link to a stream that is now not the one that OBS is streaming from? OBS chose to make a new one. It's like, OK, then, like, whatever you want, OBS, just tell me, it's fine, really. I'll give you. Well, I don't know if you guys need the link, but I can give you a hit a moment. No, I'm looking at it right now. OK, I use my stream thumbnail channel. How dare you? Is that is that against the law? That's against the law against the Star Wars law. Yes, I knew it. All right. This is the one. Chat is not on the screen. Oh, my God, I have failed everyone. That's not on the screen. Yeah, not on screen right now. That's my bad. I'm sorting it. Everyone chill. But yes, but everyone gets so triggered when I'm chatting. Chat needs to be on screen. They're a character in the story. They're like, hey, that's true. They're often in memes now. There's a dog barking outside. How rude, Rags, throw him out. I don't know, Frederick. I agree. It's not a great it's not a great dog. Babe, is it? It's one of those ones. You're like, I'm sure the owner likes the name. There it is. Yeah, like I said, new new area. This is getting streamed now, because why not? Seriously, when you only hit go live on OBS, it gives you sometimes it'll say you sure you want to go live. You hit OK, and it just does it. What it was doing recently was giving me what looks like an error message. You know, like with the little triangle that's yellow with like a warning symbol. And then it would give you like a what looks like a Windows Vista sort of fucking thing where it was like go live. And I was like, well, yes. But today it said, are you sure you want to and what you want to name it? And what you want to put in the description? And it's like, what the fuck? Oh, maybe you clicked like the because it's like a just like a quick create new stream button. And that's what you clicked. I mean, that one you had problems. There isn't a less the thing. There's just it just I'm never going to get it. I'm happily going to be considered a boomer on this one. But it is working. You know, we're all here. We're a little bit zoomed in. I'm going to I'm going to zoom us down for the next one. But as long as everyone can be seen, it's fine. And it seems that chat is here. So that's good. I zoomed in. You have to unzoom chat. No, they will. They're fine. They're perfect. That's always Gil said she got a notification for this stream, but it doesn't appear on the channel. So that's that's good. You know what I mean? It's like we'll figure it out. We take the wins that we get. That's the best we can do at least now. People know there's something to look for. They can't find. Mm hmm. So I guess we're mostly good enough to just sort of slowly begin. But I was just going to say before we do that, uh, if I've got me, the wonderful site ran by Keeberkins has has a new feature that you can find in the the more section called Christmas versus Halloween. The ongoing discussion. That's probably the most important discussion that you've ever had. And since we got four people here, we're going to have to get them to put in their votes real quick. I'll go from the left to the right, at least my left to my right. Anomaly Inc. What do you prefer? What do you think is better, Christmas or Halloween? Christmas. Christmas. All right. Fair enough. It's so obvious. Glyb, what do you think is better, Christmas or Halloween? Pass. You can't pass. It's the low pass. What is that? Cheetah, I'm a Jehovah's witness for this question. No, I'm just kidding. I think that ultimately Christmas is better for culture. I know better for culture. Better for culture. Sitch Christmas or Halloween. Well, first of all, I'm Jewish, so I don't know. This question applies. Yeah, his. Oh, oh, he gets a pass because he's Jewish, but because I'm fake Jehovah's witness. Did we say did we motherfucking say that he gets a pass? No, we did not. So no, so so I guess I'm going to say, obviously, Halloween, because I don't know. Yes. There you go. That doesn't even. Finally, I'm not alone. What do you mean it's a cat? That totally counts. You can't you can't choose Halloween because you're Jewish. That's not fair. What? I'm not my debate partner is anti-Semitic, Mahler. I don't know if I can deal with this. I'm confused. Why? It was his birthday. You don't have to be. You know what, you know what? You don't have to be a Christian to choose Christmas, so it's fine. You can choose whatever the hell you want. I mean, you kind of do. Isn't it like the. Nope, nope, nope. Not for this game. No, no, we're going to get along well. I've heard Christmas. That is that in the Bible. That's the first commandment in the Torah. Not the Torah, I'm sorry. I've been a fan since Gamergate, so I I'm ready for this. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And Rick, what do you prefer? What do you think is better Christmas or Halloween? Halloween. Yes, yeah, excellent answers on the right. Terrible answers on the left, but, you know, it's fine. Yeah, can we switch partners? Actually, worthless. So you guys are you guys are a pro Halloween? Oh, well, I'll give you the link for both. Yeah, both of both are fine with me. Both are fine. I just think Halloween is way cooler than Christmas. Well, cool. It's not about cool. Well, better. Yeah, one of the subcategories of better would be cool, surely. It's fucking the difference between you apply that metric. I'm not applying that metric. You don't. Well, but I'm assuming Rags Things Christmas is cooler than Halloween. Um, like, cool. I don't know. Well, it doesn't matter how you qualify better. It's just, you know, you could do whatever the hell you want. I'm just saying I prefer Halloween and I think it's better because it's cooler. That feels like a different question, too. That's not a different question. That's just me qualifying why I think it's better. I think this is Mahler trying to to reframe the question to try and justify his incorrect answer. Since when have I not advocated that it's the cooler one? That's what I've said since the beginning. Well, I would I would say Halloween is obviously cooler. We all I mean, you can what if you want it? If you want to say that Christmas is better because it's like longer, I don't care. You can choose whatever you want. Longer, yeah, longer. Of course, you love the longer thing. No, I don't longer. Yeah, it starts November. I I force Halloween to be the whole month. I don't like that it's one day. It's racist. Oh, wow, against the undead. And believe it. Yeah, Rags is on point. You knew. More than changes, the rules bad him. Yeah, what is that, Ma? Well, if if someone said, what does it mean to be better? I'd be like, it's up to you. We're not we're not going to tell. Oh, it's cool. It's cooler. Well, you could choose what you want. Oh, and that's the reason why the OT is cooler and better than the prequel. That's right. I need you to define cooler. It is of lower temperature. How is that here? Here's the measure. How close to you is it true? No, because I celebrate Halloween in space is really cold up there. Oh, OK, fair enough. It's always a weird space. I am the debate. Oh, yeah, I was going to say that's where you can see how it's doing. We've not had it going for long, but hopefully the names will fill up. I imagine Christmas will overflow Halloween, but all of the cool kids will be in Halloween. Oh, wait, I posted it twice. Whatever, it doesn't matter. So what we're here for today is a wonderful little kind of a format change because people are like, how is it? Format change was just debate. It's like, well, because this time, this debate will not have any of the regular e-fappers in it. We will simply be moderating and possibly discussing whatever may or may not come up. We're enabling, yes. Yeah, the horrors, which means that anything bad that happens is such a fault. Yeah, yes. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Of course, we're just trying to see both the two. Yeah, you guys are platforming hate. You know that, right? User platforming hate. No, no, no, you. You didn't even put Hanukkah on your damn pole. That's offensive. Hanukkah on your damn pole. I didn't know Hanukkah goes on a pole. Is that how they do it? What pole? Yeah, there's like eight poles. Yeah, there's eight poles, yeah. They all have lights on them. Lights in? It's called a menorah. Jeez. Menorah? Is that like a Godzilla enemy? Probably because of the minority of people celebrate it. Ghidorah, this is menorah. Yeah, nice one. Got him. Got it. I've corrected the title as well, apparently. It was, I forgot to put the number tag in it, my bad. Either way, we got a wonderful day ahead of us because the world of EFAP has been plagued with discussion on how good the OT is and how bad the sequel trilogy is. With one trilogy floating in the ether, often not necessarily not discussed, just wondering, you have people in chat being like, oof, those prequels are shit. And then, oof, those prequels are great. And then they fight each other. And me and Rags, we don't like to see the kids fight in all the time. We're like, hey, you stop that. Unless they're orphans in which case. Yes, yes. In which case, survival of the fizz. But don't lie, we love it. And so we're at the point. And we're not talking about the Aladdin trilogy, right? No. He often neglects. Ooh. That will have to come up at another point, obviously. Everyone knows the Aladdin trilogy movie order ranking system, come on. It's always good when two of the three movies in your trilogy are straight to VHS. That's a good sign, yeah. Even though I had a trilogy. Did anything good come out straight to VHS? Aladdin 3. Oh, look at that. Is it good? Because I've never seen it. I have not seen it. Oh, it's actually good. Feels bad, man. I saw the first one. Has anyone seen the first Aladdin? I bet no one has. Wait, there was a first Aladdin? I believe you. In any film you've probably never heard of it. Starring Danny DeVito at his young age. Great. So yeah, like I said, we're dealing with whether or not the prequels are well-written. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Glybfax Simile and PSA say such, you believe that the prequels are, would I say, poorly written? Is that right? Yes. That's a nice way of saying bad and shit, but yeah. Yeah, very nice way of saying that. In fact, I'd say they're awfully written and they should have been redrafted many times. Oh my goodness. Anomaly and Rick, you guys believe the reverse, yes, that the prequels are quite well-written, if not great? Question mark? It's not great. It looks like great. I think they're mostly well-written, yes. Hmm. So, oh yeah, of course. Welcome to EFAT, by the way. Stitch has been here before, as is Glyb. Glyb, is this the first time you've been like a full gas, because you usually just pop in, don't you, randomly? Yes, I just pop in to debate. But, I'm ready. Well, yes, there you go. Welcome to EFAT 84, I believe. But of course, the first time for both Rick and Anomaly, Inc., how are you guys doing? Sorry for not giving you an intro immediately. God, lost him, that one. Say whatever you want. It's fine, it's great to be here. I've watched you guys for a long time. It's finally nice to meet you guys and that's pretty cool. Sorry, it's kind of weird just being on chat with you guys or just getting used to it. Yeah, no problem. Yeah, thanks for having me on, I appreciate it very much. No problemo, whenever prequel decisions come up, your name is usually attached to it. So you're like, well, if we're gonna do a prequel debate, we're gonna have to bring you in. And of course, Rick, I don't know if you have any idea what EFAT is, but welcome. Barely, maybe sort of a little bit of an idea. So I'm happy to be here, thanks for having me. No problem, yeah, so there you go. That's the people, this is the episode. They're splitting into twos and they're gonna be talking about the prequels and I believe the idea is that me and Rags might do a bit of direction here and there. Might ask a few questions as you do. But yeah, main intention is to let everything free flow. We're not doing the whole, you know, you get a 30 minute intro and then a 30 minute response and then five minute rebuttal thing because we kind of thought, you know. That's lame, and if you do that, you're gay. Would you say debates are gay? Yes. Bates are extremely gay. Of the homosexualoid, but the thing with the 30 minute thing is like, which point do you respond to? There's gonna be a few of them. Right, right. While obviously, so yeah, it's probably worth staying because these are things that come up in pretty much any debate. Try and avoid doing like a bazillion points and then have the person respond to multiple choice ones but then simultaneously, not all interruptions will be a bad thing, right? The idea that you're running off into a direction with the other person's like, no, no, no, don't go that way. I already know where that way goes. That sort of thing. Simultaneously, you know, it's fair to be relatively charged in whatever you wanna discuss and so if there's any kind of crossover or, you know, perceived foul play, I'm sure we'll be just fine. I imagine that this can run. Foul play. I mean, you know, look at you. You're like, you look like a demon. No offense. Oh yes. So. What are your sith tricks on this debate? We figure that from there, everything can basically just run. What else is there to say, Rags? What you reckon? Hmm, I think that sort of covers it for now. I assume everyone kinda understands our extremely rigid, very easy to understand format. Do you guys wanna go with the rule here? Chad wants to have a poll to see if we've changed anybody's minds. Oh, like a pre and post poll, I guess? That's a good idea. All right, I'll get one set up then. What should it be entitled? Are the prequels well written? Should that be it? Yeah, that's what the debate is, right? Pretty much. Are the prequels well written is what I was prepared for. That's what the line that you gave me and that's what I'm prepared to argue because I think that I had, I could have more to say if it was the whole film, technically. So this is gonna be interesting because that's mostly what I think about. This actually made me think about the writing and the prequels and it was so hard for me. I had to watch, it took me three tries to watch Attack of the Clones all the way through for this. Wow. Oh, the fact you were thinking about the writing means you did more than most speaking about them. Okay, that much. That's true, no, it's true because it's so glaringly bad as a visual. It's a visual. Yeah, it's just a visual story. It's horrible to look at if you're trying to look for a Star Wars aesthetic. All right, wait, so I'm gonna, I'll make three options. They are well written, they are not and undecided for those who aren't sure. So I'll put first poll. Get ready to jump on that and chat everybody who's listening. You gotta get your vote in there. Otherwise, how are we gonna know how the room feels about this whole thing? I'm very curious. What's predictions? What do you guys reckon it's gonna look like? Anyone? I don't know. Probably on the boomer. Sorry. Dude, why isn't it? I thought last, or not last week, whenever I was on here a couple of weeks ago, I thought that most people thought the prequels were bad, but apparently I was mistaken and I'm an old man boomer. Yeah, that's right, Sitch. We have to destroy the nostalgia that all of the Zoomers are for Star Wars. My God, they're fucking Zoomers. All right. Oh, this is kind of interesting. We're looking at a... I just, before we start, I just wanna go on. Yes, you were gonna say something. Okay, I'm sorry. Oh, I just wanted to say that I wanted to give a shout out to everybody at Smudcast and especially Ryan at RK Outpost who got his channel hit a couple of times with the copyright strikes. Everybody try and go support them and then thank you, Jeremy, for coming on and having that debate. I just wanted to give them a shout out for that. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I'm relatively out of the loop with the whole loss of his stuff, but I know a lot of channels have been suffering to a degree with them. What did a critical drinker call them? Misbehaving canine or something? Wait, wait, I think I'm so out of the loop with this. No, it's a naughty dog, I've been... Oh, sorry, Mark. No, no, you can get, you probably know more than I do. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm one of the people got struck down. So yeah, basically, a naughty dog, well, a disgruntled dev at Naughty Dog leaked the spoilers for the new gamers coming out. Oh. Mm-hmm. So, Sony and Naughty Dog went on damage control and people who were posting or speaking about the leaks got the party flagged down. And then Jeremy, they took it one step further and just people who were speaking about it, just from a commentary standpoint, without even pulling anything, they stopped Jeremy's stream. Geeks and gamers, they stopped a call down to talking about it. It's crazy. Yeah, it's pretty gone, pretty haywire with it. Yeah, I mean, that's a, honestly, a real shame and they should know better. You always wonder, it's like, you got, you have to pull out the word, you're like, Streisand effect. And they're like, what's that? There's like, why doesn't everybody know this by now? All you do is create more carnage and then you get people like me who are like, sorry, what's going on? What is this? And they go, oh, they'd be in pricks. Why are they being pricks? Now that you're being an asshole. Yeah. Like I wouldn't have given the shit that much anyway because I don't care about the last of us, but now, ooh. Yeah, I just wanted to point out about the prequel sequel thing that just because we're having this debate about the prequels, that doesn't have any opinion effect on the sequel. The six of us agree, the sequels are all fucked. We'll be fine. I don't want that to influence people. But what do you mean by that specifically? What I'm saying is that I don't think automatically because I'm going to be hating on the prequels, liking the original trilogy more. That perspective has nothing to do with the sequels. So I don't want people that are prequels fans to think that I like the sequels more than the prequels. That's what I'm saying. Oh, I gotcha. Okay. I don't want it to sitch. You do like the sequels more than the prequels, though, don't you? I don't. Just because I'm shitting on the prequels doesn't mean that the sequels are better than me. No, he said sitch. He said sitch. Yeah, sitch, yeah. Well, it's interesting because now that I've watched the prequels again, it's so hard because they're both really bad, but in very different ways. That's actually what you want to say. Well, no, I don't know what I want to say because I think Rise of Skywalker, at least Rise of Skywalker, which is the freshest sequel in my mind, it is definitely more incoherent and riddled with plot holes than any of the prequel movies are. But the cinematography in acting is better and that goes a long way. So I think I'll stick by what I said before, which is that the sequels are probably worse written or just as badly written, but they're better acted and shot. Well, that'll be it. I was going to say, we'll want to try and get you guys talking before we reach any sort of conclutory statements, even if it's just about the samples or whatever. But yeah, it looks as if the prequels are actually winning overall with the audience. The 319, believe it is, they are well written. 255, believe they are not, and you got 165 people undecided. There's an audience to fight for today, people. An audience to fight for. A bunch of centrists in the audience. I figured it'd be a larger landslide towards the prequels than down the middle. Oh, yeah, well, exciting. Between me and Sitch, we have 19 pages of notes on how this movie is bad. So we are ready to go. Well, no, that was just for the first one. That was just for, oh, sorry. That was just for the Phantom Menace. Oh, Jesus. Multiply that by three. Well, not that you guys have any kind of time limit, but I will say you're going to want to, you're going to want to prioritize the biggest stuff, you know, not that you can't talk about small stuff. Just saying, just, just, you know. You have to be able to make all these points in 10 hours. But let's put it this way. We have a Mahler's video, a Mahler's video trilogy is worth of points. We ran out of time discussing Mandalorian. Okay, it can happen. We ran out. Let's, well, then look at whatever happens to happen. It's fine. We could do a part two. How about that? Anyway, that's right. I suppose all I'm going to do is ask a question and then it's up to the four of you. But I will be putting a nice little piece of artwork. Oh yeah, of course. I was going to say that we will do a second poll once this debate is over and we'll see how the audience has changed. Though the audience will have changed by then anyway, like they will have swapped out, I think at that point. Right. So it's only, you know, not 100%. But if you have... It's not a scientific poll, okay. If you all want to pull up the stream, I would have posted it in our chat, but now I don't know if it'll fuck up the call, so I'm just going to leave it. But you can see that a piece of artwork was created just for this. It's quite wonderful. Got old Stratomire getting himself in there with a wonderful drawing. So I'm going to leave that up. And then, like I said, I'm going to ask a question and then we will leave you to it other than interjections here and there. So, out of the four of you, you're welcome anyone to answer this. Are the prequels well written? No! That's it, you want to start? Okay, so the way I think the easy way to tackle this is in the way that I wrote my notes, is it's basically just in order of events that happen in the movie. It's figured it'd be easy to just go point by point. Let's do it. Okay, so first point, according to the title crawl, the conflict, this is in the Phantom Menace, the conflict of the entire movie is centered around the taxation of trade routes. And yet, at no point in the movie, is it ever explained what that means? Who's taxing who? Why would the Naboo, the trade federation owe each other taxes? Aren't they both part of the Republic? It's sort of amazing to me when the central conflict of the movie is never explained and is simply hand waved away in some vague opening title. And what is it that's special about Naboo? What do they produce that makes them the focal point of this trade dispute? Why are they relevant to the overall galaxy? And if they are relevant, if they are relevant, then what is it exactly that is keeping the Senate from making this a big issue? Well, isn't it, I mean, 90% of the complaining I hear is people saying that there's too much politics and it's bogged down and they talk too much about it and then they over explain the politics. So, I mean, how much more explanation did you want? I mean, that's a good point. We just pointed out exactly what we want. Why is that not a movie? Well, I want to just your politics point because I think it's a good point is that I think there's a misconception with people. It's not that politics is inherently bad. There's TV shows about politics like West Wing and Game of Thrones is like entirely almost about kingdom politics and factions warring each other. The problem with the politics in Star Wars is that none of it's ever explained. So people have no context to understand what the fuck's going on and that's what makes it boring. It's not that politics themselves are inherently boring. Well, is it boring or is it confusing? It's both boring and confusing. You could say that boring is subjective but confusing means incoherent logic, which is true because we just pointed out a bunch of questions that we have and your answer was not an explanation of it. It was a question as to why we want it. Well, no, what Rick is saying, the reason why I started with that is because the majority of, it's not a misconception, the majority of arguments I do see in videos online that I respond to are it really just comes down to politics bad, like I mean to like straw man that will paint the opposition, it's just what I see. But to further elaborate on what you said, so why isn't that really the target? Let's start with that. Firstly, Oh, by the way, hold on a second. Before you say anything, we have to point out to chat. One of the stipulations we agreed on is there's no external explanations. You can't go to the EU, you can't go to the to Wikipedia and you can't go to something that's in the novelization. Well, you could, that's part of the rules. Yeah, that was part of the rules. You could technically bring up the EU, but it doesn't really help your argument because that means that you're pointing out a plot hole. I would clarify. What made you think I was gonna go? It all has to be in the films. What made you think I was gonna go for the EU? Sorry, I'm not saying that you are. I'm just pointing it out to chat so that they don't have superfluous arguments. So to clarify, right, if you're asking for an explanation for something in the film that relates to the progression of the stakes in the film, then you can't go third party. However, if for some reason, the message was like, who's that guy in the background with the weird hat? And then Naomi was like, oh, well, if you actually read this book, you'd know that he's this guy who does this thing. You can mention it. I'm not gonna be like, no, you can't mention anything. It's not an excuse. No, I am. I'm not gonna allow that. I'm not gonna allow you to go. I'm not gonna allow you to go to an external source to explain how the movie's good. This is about if the movie is well-written, not if Star Wars is well-written after the film. That was the point of what I was saying, is that you wouldn't be able to use it to explain something that should necessarily be in the movie. But that guy in the background with the hat, who cares? You can't, you can't be like, why do you need to know who that guy is, Sitch? As opposed, or you could be like, oh, well, he does have a story actually, but it's in this whole other thing. But yeah, continue. All right, let's continue. Yeah, well, the reason that Naboo was targeted specifically is because it's Palpatine's home planet. He's using his home planet to exploit a loophole in the Republic. So I'll admit a small sort of hiccup with the way the story starts is shaky for me, and I'll play the other side of the fence for a moment, is what exactly did Palpatine promise the trade federation? We can say he promised them money or sort of reward and all, but the story is he made a bargain with the trade federation. Trade federation, you want your money? I'm gonna sort things out in the Senate. You need to go to the Senate, you need to block off Naboo and all sort things out in the Senate. And then eventually Naboo will cave and give you a demand. He was, what happened, Rick? Well, I mean, you're asking what you need to know to understand this story. What you need to know to understand this story is he's trying to create an armed conflict there, which will lead to a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valoran. I mean, like the details of the plot, like who's paying, who, what, it's not really, that's not relevant. It's, you know, I mean, it's like when you watch episode four originally and Tarkin's talking about the governors of the regional systems having direct control over their bureaucracy. And I mean, you don't know what any of that means, but you understand that the point is that if the empire takes control with the Death Star, that's bad. Now the empire is gonna be able to blow up people with nothing stopping them. You know, I mean, all the Star Wars movies are designed that way. You get enough to understand who's versus who and who's winning control. I mean, there are explanations to all that the type of minutiae if you really want it, but it's never something that is required to follow the story of the character. I know I don't want you to tell me what's required. I want you to answer the question that's forwarded or admit that it's not in the movie. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, before we pray to do that. I think bring up episode four, The New Hope is a good point because it's the exact opposite of episode one. In episode four, everything is very clearly explained. You have the empire, their motivation, their fascist dictatorship, and they wanna control everything. What's at stake? Well, they're gonna fucking kill you if you don't listen to them. And Phantom Menace, we don't have any of that. The problem, it's not a question of minutiae. If people don't understand what the motivations or the characters or what the story is about, this is the central conflict of the story. If you don't understand what's going on, then we can't feel emotionally invested in the story or care about what's going on. There's no tension, if there's no conflict that we can understand. Well, I think another music that we have is that the whole plot revolves around the trade duration. And that's like, that's the spark to sort of get the story going, but it actually isn't about that. It's about the finding of Anakin and Queen Amidala's flights. Wait, wait, wait, wait, that's what it's about to the audience. What about inside the universe? The entire conflict in the Senate, which is the center political operation center that's driving this plot that Palatine has? Yeah, it's bogged down in Nusha. Nothing's getting done. Okay, well, wait, the blockade first of all, blockade is legal, I need to talk about specifically. Blockade is legal, they're just simply protesting they want more money for, okay, this is the trade federation. It's a peaceful protest, but it's like ethical, if that makes sense. Like they shouldn't be doing it, but they can, the legality thing. And so that's why the Republic's debating. The Republic's debating, the blockade removes the trade, can regime to the poo. I think it was getting done. So then chance for a pound. This isn't a title crawl, by the way. I'm not talking out of my ass. That's the valorem sends the two Jedi's on a secret mission to settle the conflict, to get them to take their ships and fuck off. Oh, yeah. Why did he send them in secret? It has to be sanctioned. Okay, it has to be sanctioned to Jedi too. It's never explained. Where's that saying in the move? Yeah, in the title crawl, talking about it. It doesn't say that Jedi had to be sanctioned, it just says he sends them a secret. He sends them a secret. They're probably not privy to this. It wasn't privy to this. But why? I mean, why? Why were they sent in secret? As opposed to being sent? I mean, I thought, this is kind of skipping ahead, but I thought the whole point of Jedi was that they were supposed to deal with disputes, interplanetary disputes. I thought that was the entire point of Jedi. So why would- Is this not an interplanetary dispute though? And again, the blockade is legal. They're not doing anything wrong. Okay, wait a minute. We're trying to settle it. What are you talking about? It's the trade federation versus the boo. I don't- Okay, so how is it that a blockade of trade is legal? How does that work? Well, wait a minute. Can we- I know we're giving points, but you- We're trying to jump ahead, but we're trying to jump ahead because there's something that's super important that hasn't really, that I need to address, which is the question is why is it important to understand the trade federation's motivation and why it's not minutia? And the answer to that is because what happens if Queen Amidala signs the treaty that makes invasion legal? Right. What's the consequences of that? No, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. They never say that. But wait a minute. This is really important. We don't understand- We haven't reached that point yet. We will get to that. No, hold on. We need to get to that point. We're there in the beginning of the story and the set up of the movie. We're still in space. We haven't gone dancing a boo yet. Okay, but wait a minute. But the question was why do we need to understand what the trade federation is, what the motivation is and all this stuff is because we don't understand what's at stake. So when the central conflict is Queen Amidala, you have to sign the treaty to make it legal for our invasion to be legal. What happens if she signs it? Does that mean that the trade federation, that they have to pay the trade federation taxes? Does it mean that the trade federation enslaves their planet? Does that mean that Newt Gunray is gonna marry Queen Amidala? We don't know and the movie never tells us. So what I mean- And I still don't know what trade is. An emotional connection. We don't have an emotional connection of worrying what happens if our heroes fail. So there's no tension in the movie if we don't know what happens when our heroes fail. Well, yeah, we do. If she signs the treaty, it makes their occupation legal. It makes the invasion legal. But the blockchain is legal. So what is illegal? What is that for the planet? They send down their ships and their robots and they occupy the planet. They take over the planet. They take over the government of the planet. They run the planet like they're trying to do at the end of the movie. When they take over, they depose her and the Newt Gunray's in her throne room and the droids are running the city and that's what they're trying to do. She's trying to keep them in silence. They want their transformation legal. And they're making whatever they want. Who knows what they want in the end of the day. So how do I... She's trying to maintain control of her government. So why, first of all, none of this is ever talked about in the movie, whatsoever, about why they want Naboo or even if they do want Naboo. All we know is this is about taxation. Let me stop you right there. Let me stop right there. There's a reason why. You should ask yourself why they're attacking Naboo specifically, right? You said that, right? They could attack, right? They could attack any planet. They have any of the fucking trillion planets, right? So why Naboo? I don't know. I know Palpatine. I know why Palpatine wants them to attack Naboo. I don't know why they want to attack Naboo. Actually, the invasion didn't... The trade federation didn't even want to invade. Remember, Palpatine insisted they invade. It's like, my lord, is that legal? Sidious said that. I will make it legal. Sidious told them they'd do that. So why would they deal with Sidious? What were they going to get out of the deal with Sidious? Because he's made a bargain with them, he's insuring. Just do what I say and you'll get what you want. To get what? I guess, the trade disputes are... You guess, so it's not in the movie. I guess, it's what happens in the movie. If it happens in the movie, then tell me what it is that they want. Taxes say that you don't know. Trade federation are protesting the taxes on the trade routes. They want either less money or more money, whatever, on their end. But she's so stupid, you don't know. I get what the whole bargain with Palpatine is, what? So you don't know, you're saying it's this or this, I don't know. Why can't we have a point that you don't? What are you talking about? You don't know what they want. Just admit that you don't know what the trade federation wants. The trade federation wants money. They enforce taxation. Where is that in the movie? That's what they're doing. It's about taxation of trade federation routes. That's what they want. So how does that go into their deal with Sidious? What do you mean? How does it go into their deal? What are they getting out of their deal with Sidious? Money, they're trying to make money. He's telling them that if they go and they occupy this planet, if they occupy the planet, then they can control how it's taxed. And what does Naboo produce? No, that's ever explained in the movie. And what is the trade route? It's not in the movie. I don't. We don't know the resources that are being traded. We don't know where they're going. We don't know Naboo's role in that trade or if they can do something. Can I stop you out of that? And when let me just give you an example from a new hope. All right, we were told in the title for all right that the empire is the evil empire. Right. Sure. Why was the empire evil? Now we want to take over the republic. I know what you're going to say because they want to take over the republic. No, no, I'm talking about new hope is just with me. Yeah, because because they want to kill the rebellion. But why is there? Why is there? Why is the empire able? We don't know why the Pemper Palpatine is evil. That's what you're asking. Yes, we don't know exactly why the empire evil. You know, hope without without empire. Because they want to control all the planets without giving them freedom. They want the regional governors to be governors to be in control and the regional governors are all owned by the empire. So we know the empire is not beneficial to the galaxy. Are you saying the empire is a good? Are you pro-empire? Anomaly, in real life, are you pro-empire, authoritarian? No, but then why is it good? So why is authoritarianism good? It's bad just because it's called the empire. That's how you mean it in the language. OK, so you agree with the empires. Do you agree with any of the empire's methods of being moral? We see the empire being extremists and we do need to learn that they need to be toppled, but we don't see why there's a rebellion to begin with. Oh, so they're extremists and they need to be toppled. OK, so you're against the shit. The rebellion's motivation can't be that they're evil and need to be toppled. Why don't you get a watch and just a Googlebot? Is there not saying, what are the trade federation want with Palpatine, what currency, what are their, you know. Yeah, because they're not just straight. They don't want to control everything. I admit that's hairy, right? Bottom line, they want money. This is again, this is this is a question I would like to I would like to point out in the title crawl of A New Hope, the Death Star is explicitly mentioned. Yeah, this is a this is a question of stakes and a new hope. The stakes are very clear. There's a death star that has the ability to blow up planets. They blow up planets and they're going to fucking come and kill you with a trade federation. It's like, OK, they already invade the they already take over in a boot like right in the beginning of the movie. It's like, what does that mean? The question seems to be, you've got a whole a whole solar system, well, a whole galaxy. One planet is being blockaded and there's a tax dispute. And the question a lot of people tend to provide is why should anyone care about this? So the answer, I think, Glyb and such are looking for is, well, who are the people involved and why is it that one is bad, one is good and who should we root for? And all we know is the Jedi are going to go do something about it. Well, I was just going to say that there needs to be there needs to be there needs to be physical stakes that the audience understands. They say, OK, you know, the empire is bad. They're killing people. They're blowing up planets. You look at the trade federation, it's like, OK, I think the trade federation is bad. They're invading a planet. They invade the planet and then what happens? Well, they just kind of wait around and say sign a treaty. And it's like, what happens? She signs a treaty. I don't know. The movie tells us that the movie does say if you want her to sign it because it'll make them vision legal, that's what that means. How does that mean? There's a lot of implications. But look, again, it was a peaceful protest in the end, but what are they just going to take some money and leave? Like, what does it mean? The invasion is legal. I don't know what that means. We're occupying the planet. The occupation is so they're saying in the movie we're occupying a planet, no implication for it. They don't say they never say in the movie if you sign this treaty, the trade federation will now control Naboo forever and you will all be enslaved to them. That's never talked about or brought up in the movie. They don't say forever. They show them taking over the planet. They show them taking over the Queen's throne room and moving into her palace and taking over the government. They send the message that the people are in camps and the people are dying. They show them all the way. They show them landing or some Naboo commanders. And the battle droids are marching up to clear Naboo's citizens off into camps. And I don't know if you need us with the empire. All you need is that somebody said they're evil. We see the trade federation doing a hundred things on Naboo. No, we don't. We don't want to have both Jedi. We're specifically told by both Jedi that the whole thing about them killing the Naboo is not true and is baked. So that's not an argument. Well, I'm talking about the scenes where you see the battle droids rounding up the citizens on Naboo and marching off. And the capital city putting people in camps, yes. Yeah, you see that. We don't see them. Where do we see that? Where do we see the camp? I don't know. Show me the scene where we see the camp. I don't remember that. What I remember is... You see the surrounding people. I'm not taking it off. How many scenes do you see? You say, take them to camp for. And then, so let me... You mean a shot at the camp? The shot is getting at me a lot. Let's put an emotion and conflict and tension to the story. If we actually see the Naboo people suffering, we actually see the droids doing something. Like we see... Because it's like, why don't we have the scene of the droids, of like people in the Naboo prison camps like asking for food and you see the droids are like, get the fuck back, Cuban or whatever. You need these scenes to establish conflict and emotion in the story. You need scenes of random citizens on Naboo that are the stories not about to have conflict. Yeah, you need scenes of conflict and emotion in the story. I don't understand. I don't... I can't deal with that kind of argumentation because you can't argue for what the audience wants or needs. You need to argue what's in the movie, okay? Because you have different standards. So what do you have to say what the audience wants or needs? I mean, you see it doesn't count. I'm not saying what happens. The logic and coherency of presenting things, show, don't tell in a movie still stands. We need to be able to see things to understand that they're actually happening. If you just say that they're happening... How many people did you see on the way to the Federation? Yeah, city, start rounding up, people in groups. But we see them all the time. That can be an implication for a lot of things, right? The Jedi need to rescue the Queen, bottom line. They rescue her before they even get to one of those goddamn camps. It doesn't matter. That's part of the problem. So this is the problem because convincing the Senate that something is happening is part of the plot. You're telling me that this futuristic environment that has holograms can't show that their people are dying to the Senate, which is then necessary to convey to the audience to understand the stakes. Because they jammed the transmissions from the planet. That's the whole first part of the movie. They stopped all the transmissions from the planet, but they couldn't show to Sidious what was happening. They couldn't show to Palpatine what was happening. They couldn't let out a transmission. And by the way, the blockade was the issue. The blockade was legal. Oh, and how is it that a blockade can be legal in a republic? How does that work? It's a peaceful protest. Say, we want more money and we're cutting off trade. OK, so let me get this straight. The blockade is the opposite of a peaceful protest. So the trade federation, are they part of the republic in the movie? Yes. Yes. There aren't separate like other parts, but I have the right to represent it in the public. And what reality do allies blockade each other? Not even allies. You have different entities part of the same federal government. So this would be like a state of living blockading the state of Alabama. It makes their living by doing trade, right? The trade federation is pretty self-explanatory, right? Now, they live in the same republic. They still got to trade with other plants and stuff. Yeah, and you can have, you know, factions within a unified faction fighting with each other in different ways that always happens in smaller ways, like it's possible. If you're a citizen of the IRS, you put a lien on your bank account. That's the IRS is part of your government and they can still put a lien on your bank account. That's what the trade federation is. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That would be like the republic intervening because they're the federal government in the movie. It wouldn't be like individual states warring with each other. The trade federation is in a state. It's an organization that enforces. They're part of the republic, aren't they? They have a senator in the republic. They're a representative in the republic, yes. So, so they're part of the republic, just like Naboo. They're an organization that enforces financial things. They're the planet is Cato Neumodia. The organization is the trade federation. Right. So are you saying that the trade federation and the planet are two different entities that have two different motivations in the republic and none of this is ever explained in the movie? Well, yeah, the trade federation is the trade federation. It's not a planet. It's a trade federation. It's a planet. So it's a small group of economic interests, a bunch of planets within the republic that are in their own trade federation. Is that what you're saying? Well, it's like the IRS. It's an organization. You know, it's a kind of organization. So, so because it's a separate organization, it's somehow OK for them to blockade another republic planet that's within the same ultimate meta large federal government. They're an authority to enforce tax laws. Wait, what's the whole thing? And what you asked is that OK, well, that's what the whole Senate is debating and bogged down in. Is this should this be legal? Should we we need to get, you know, that's that's why they can't settle on attacking anyone yet. They just OK. So what did where in the movie? Does it say that Naboo did anything that requires the trade federation to be there? It says it's a trade federation. I don't think it's a trade federation and it's because of Palpatine because it's his home planet. He knows how it fucking works. I understand. I understand that Palpatine. Look, I don't understand why you guys can't understand that this is a functioning universe. You guys are trying to present. You can't come up with a narrative plot based idea. Oh, it's part of Palpatine's plan. That's his storyline plot before, but the actual universe has to be explained to the audience for stakes to exist. If you have a non-functional universe, we have all these things that are not explained. How are we supposed to follow along with exactly what the stakes of the plot are? The stakes of the plot are what we already said, like five times that the trade federation wants money. They're going to blockade the planet. That's it. Just like you can say, you know, that's it. Stitch and I have been trying to establish for a long time. This is why I'm hotheaded because you guys keep confusing things that are in the movie and things that are not in the movie. You said that the trade federation wants money. That's not in the movie. You don't know what they want. Show me the line where the trade route is being taxed. The trade route to outlawing star systems. That's what it says in the crawl. OK, so how does that mean anything to do with that? Maybe it's that star system. They're just feeding the trade there. OK, they're disputing which trade route over what? Trade federation taxes. What do you talk about which trade route over what? You can think it's spend 50 years talking about. I don't understand what level of like financial if you need to understand if it's being taxed. If we can take just just just a second. I've answered you 25 times. All right, so the clarification. I'll just check it out. Just checking out the script. Have it on hand, just in case. So when when Newt Gunray first talks to Darth Sidious in the movie, Sidious says, I have the Senate bogged down in procedures, which is probably referencing what what his name does. What Palpatine does when he says like, this is the bureaucracy is the red tape. And he says, by the time this incident comes to a vote, they'll have no choice but to accept your control of the system. So I think by signing the treaty, it gives them control over Naboo. And that's what they want. So they're using the blockades as a sort of like a way to get to where they want to be. And then they can land all of their troops without it being an obvious immediate invasion, I imagine. I don't know if that helps move this conversation. I'm not sure is the question here, essentially, why one member of the Republic is even able to legally blockade another member? I would I would say I don't have anything for that information wise. They simply say it's legal. I'm not even sure what they're blockading exactly. Is it simply trade routes as in like no one can get in and out of the planet, which surely seems illegal to me. I wouldn't know. Well, the point is that what Palpatine wants Palpatine. Palpatine wants them to do something illegal. The whole thing Palpatine is trying to do is get a vote of no count, no confidence and chancellor of Lauren. So Palpatine is trying to do something that's crossing the line. He wants them to do something. That's why they said, my lord, is that legal because they know it's crossing the line. Palpatine is pushing them to do something wrong. Because that's going to get people to be upset with Lauren. Yeah, he's he's pushing him into a position where he could act, but he's going to do it the bureaucratic way. And that's going to make Padme so annoyed with him that she'll suggest through manipulation from Palpatine, a vote of no confidence. That makes sense is what I was actually going to say. The part that I think everyone's still confused on is what the blockade is doing specifically and how could it be considered legal? I understand what Palpatine wants. We don't understand what the trade fed is never meant to make it to a cause and once she gets there, that's his plan. More on your right. Like, absolutely. That's what that's what he rolls with. But yeah, that's fair to make it there. That's why I sense that more often, obviously, but I'll get to that. What I was trying to say is like in regards to why Palpatine wants to do this again, his planet, he knows how it works. He has a close relationship with the Queen and the government there. He even says to the trade federation like word for word, Queen Amidala is young and naive. You will find controlling her to be whatever it is difficult or not difficult. That's what he says, right? So and then when Qui-Gon is down there and he's trying to be right, when he says that. What? Is he being honest or lying when he says that line about the Queen being young and naive? Um, just wanted to clarify, like some people in chat are saying the blockade is not legal and that they say they know nothing about it in the Senate in the when the beginning of the film, he describes the blockade as perfectly legal to the the captain's arriving. They claim they don't know anything about the invasion. Yeah, it's the invade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I just want to pass judgment on the entire republic because they have a retarded system. And I understand that that's the point that is trying to be made by the movie. But it severely lowers my ability to sympathize with any of the Jedi or Republic ideals. They don't have an army. They don't have an army to back up this enforcement. If the if the Trade Federation actually did invade Naboo and they did get evidence, what would the what would the Republic do? Sensor the Trade Federation? What's their let's kind of the entire movie is the Senate is the Republic's old and complacent and their system doesn't work anymore. Yeah. I mean, he's so why should we care if they destroyed? Yeah. Why should we care if the Senate is replaced by the Empire? Yeah, why should we care if the system in the Empire? But something else and you're not really establishing good stakes for your characters to be emotionally invested in for the audience. Or just at the beginning, we haven't gone to the characters yet. This is just a basic opening. So so we're still on. We don't understand what the Trade Federation wants from Palpatine. We don't understand what they want from Naboo. We don't understand anything motivated them. We don't know who's taxing who or what. And this is the Trade Federation. The Trade Federation doesn't write anything from Palpatine. They're doing a lot of that. Right. They want something from Sidious, which is unknown because we haven't established it yet and you just construe his money, which isn't in the movie, which is why it gets me angry. Because I told you I want actual evidence from the movie. I don't want you to write the movie for your movie. The call also mentions them as the greedy Trade Federation. So they must be the ones in the tax laws and wanting more. How? So then a question, how does the Trade Federation tax a planet when they're both part of the same federal government? Because they're working. They facilitate the trade from planets around the Republic. They could have. Again, they could have done this. Where is that written in the movie? It's in the name of the cutting organization. It is. They deal with the truth. They deal with trade and taxes. That's it. I don't know how much I'm going to hit against the brick wall. The World Trade Organization does not dictate what trades America makes. Just because they're called the World Trade Organization doesn't mean they control all World Trade. So there are members of the whole trade. They are a faction that controls trade. Why is it called the Corporate Alliance and shit, too? The tax is not the number. So is the question here that it's that it's not clear enough in the film that the Trade Federation is able to do what they're doing in a legal sense? The mechanism not clear is about what the fuck the Trade Federation is, how they're doing it. We don't understand what the Republic, the set of governments is. We don't understand what the stakes are. And as Anomaly knows, because I saw this from one of his videos, there's an interview with George Lucas, where he admits that he doesn't know why the Trade Federation is blocking Naboo and he doesn't care. So this is just a clear example of a video. I know what he says in the interview. This we says in the interview. I'm always I'm always I remember we saw that. Yeah, I remember what he's saying. I says, why are they blockading Naboo? He says, whatever. I don't know. It doesn't matter. He also says, by the way, answer for the bloody audience. By the way, I even I even mocks him. He says, oh, yeah, it's only like a hundred million dollar movie. Why does it matter? There is the only thing I can think of. And again, this could be a lack of information is the third film just before Gunray gets killed. He says Lord City has promised us peace. I don't know if that's related for the three films or just revenge of the Sith. But the idea of before he's by that point. Well, of course, that was I assume that was the plan that would have been from the get-go is to secede from the Republic planning after eight 10 years earlier. No, this is this is what I'm getting at. I'm like, I don't know what else we have to work with. I don't think that the the gun rays motivation is clear. It seems to be fear pretty much certain points in Phantom Menace. I mean, I mean, I would just like to I would like to point out that line doesn't really make any sense if they started the war. It's actually funny that you brought that line because it's almost like George Lucas is trolling the audience because in revenge of the Sith, you first of all, and Cohen was revenge of the Sith, you never find out again. You never find out what the fuck the separatists want. It's motivated them whatsoever. What the sticks, you don't find any of this stuff out. And finally, at the end, you revenge the Sith. When Anakin's right about to kill Newt Gunray, he says, City has promised us peace. He promised us. And you're like about to find out whatever he promised him. And then Anakin kills them. Literally, Anakin kills Newt Gunray right before you find out what motivated his character the whole time. Look, and I want to point out, yeah, yeah, sure. We're we're not we're not we're not we're not taking. Let's let's say that this point is invalid before this court, since it's not in the rules, what George Lucas said. Let's let's not use that point. We still don't. It still doesn't take away from our initial argument, which is that we don't know any of the stakes. We don't know what happens. We don't know what the Trade Federation consists of. I'm willing to be able to trade routes. And then by the way, by the way, the first the hold on the initial counterpoint was that it wasn't really important, but it is important. No, I said that there I said there was an open draft. That was never my initial counterpoint. Oh, well, then explain explain it then. What I said wasn't important is you're talking about like all the details of who's taxing who and how much money and who gets what from who. And that's not important. What's important is that they're blockating the planet. It's going to be bad for the people are going to take over the planet. That's the stakes. But they're going to be bad for the people in part. We don't see the negative effect. Is that good for people? Guys, why does it matter? Why does it matter how Palpatine created an army of a billion stars for us? He just created them. They're just there. That's just the conflict of the movie. Don't ask questions. It doesn't matter. Right. Exactly. Details don't matter. How did Luke's lightsaber get there? It doesn't matter. It fell off Bespin. It's a detail. Glybsus, would you be willing to say? That's a false equivalence. That's false equivalence. That's a staple for me. This is a prequel. This is the start of the story. There's no fucking, I'm in the comments before it. This is a blank slate. It's a blank slate, and that means you shouldn't explain it. Would you be willing to accept that it's an inference that they're doing it for money from the title Greedy Trade Federation? Sure. Sure. Let's move on to the next point if you want to. I was going to consider points, just a small point, that the bargain itself is a little hairy. But it's pretty self-explanatory why they're fucking there. We have to know every little detail. So here's the problem. All the pieces are there. The entire plot is about politics from the perspective of Queen Amidala, who's one of the main characters. So the reason why I'm such a stickler for this point is because we're going to go further into things not making sense, like why the Senate is deadlocked. That's not going to make any sense. How are you going to? You're just going to say the exact same argument. No, well, you're going to make the same argument where it's like, it's details. You know what I'm going to argue. We know what's required for the plot. Well, OK, well, then I bring it up right now, then. What is it that's stopping the Senate from dealing with an issue? Two-year-old party voting on the blockade? On anything? Well, I mean, isn't the point that they're so wrapped up in bureaucracy as in too many different people disagreeing in too many different ways that they have to get lots of procedural things done, such as sending an envoy to confirm that war is happening or that an invasion is happening before people can vote on it, when what they want is to simply vote that we go and help Naboo now. That's what you consider a deadlock. Right, that's exactly the point. And I am. And I am a couple times. OK, but they're blocking communications from getting out from a planet. And when they go to the Senate, they can't take a vote on sending a hologram from one place to another. They can't even get to that point. And the background of that is just to say that the Republic is corrupt, basically. So again, why are we rooting for the Jedi or the Republic or any character that's on the good side of this movie if they're so incompetent and so inefficient that they can't even do basic things? Because it's not one person's role. Two Jedi, the Queen, and they get trapped on Naboo, sorry, Tatooine, and find Anakin. We haven't gone to that yet. Not to mention George. I've already said that as well. Again, this is just like the premise, the start of the whole story, right? And again, it was really just meant to be a routine thing that I was sent there to force a settlement and a movie to be done with it. And the whole reason they invited you is because. It's in secret. They're supposed to represent the Republic in secret, have a secret deal that then gets revealed to the rest of the Senate, which is deadlock. How does that work? I'm just I'm sorry. The only thing that I can conclude is this universe is full of retards. What else am I supposed to assume? You're asking why are the why are the Jedi sent in secret and not have this be a public affair? They can't, yeah, they can't. The entire thing is that nobody knows that this thing is going on and they can't verify it. The lore and be like an analog for something that's happening in Iraq, like sending in the people to find out if there's weapons of mass destruction. Like, but at least they did that in real life and the movie, they can't even bother to send a ship over there at light speed in 20 seconds or whatever it takes to get there to check to see if this is actually happening. That's the bad guys. The Republic must be just fucking worthless. They're just ineffective. It's a nonsense, yeah. I'm saying just because the Republic is flawed, you can't care about anybody in the movie. The individual people are good people and bad people. I mean, just because the Republic isn't perfect, that doesn't mean that I don't understand how that removes all with all the characters. Because I kind of want to close on the original point here before we move on. So the comparison of how Palpatine created a million Star Destroyers versus what the fuck's going on with Trade Federation and the only difference is because one's a prequel and one's a sequel. No, I didn't say that. Yeah, yeah, what I mean is like, you know, like, well, again, what happened after the last Jedi, right? If we're gonna, I don't count it. Like the first order, you know, there was Snoke, there was Kylo, had pretty much the whole fleet destroyed. Then fast forward a year, Palpatine's back from the dead and he's been building other destroyers this whole time. And even though we saw him die and the dead start to get blown up, we saw that he totally managed to complete retcon versus a vague foundation for conflict. It's the same point. Why does it matter why Palpatine's alive? Why does it matter where he got all the Star Destroyers? Why does it matter how the first order exists? Or any, why does it matter that we never understand the sequel's prevalence? The first order versus the resistance when the resistance should technically be the government. Why is any of these questions matter? These are things we all ask when we look at the sequels, but then we ask the same thing. I have a question for the prequels, you say it's not important. Because there's a difference in the start of the story. You start out with, okay, this is the status quo. But when we're doing a chapter nine, you can't just skip it and a bunch of things change between chapter eight and chapter nine. You can't just skip how they changed. And you know what, I don't understand how that applies because you have Lord of the Rings and they had a prequel set to that and they still had to set up a lot more information. That just because you have, just because something is a sequel or a prequel doesn't mean that there's a story that's being threaded through. And just because you have, and by the way, I think it's the exact opposite of what you're saying. If you're introducing the entire thing from the beginning, you better have the most amount of backstory. I think what Rick was saying there was like, so Palpatine's dead, yet he's alive. The first order is up and running despite the empire being down. The trade federation is blockading Naboo, which is brand new information entirely. We've not got, Naboo was destroying, the trade federation didn't exist. So how is this possible? We're dealing with, oh, this is all new. Okay, this is all brand new. The equivalent would be if... Explain to the audience. Wow. The equivalent to what you're, the equivalent to the point that you're making about episode nine would be if there was an episode zero when an episode zero, he establishes that the trade federation doesn't like money and the trade federation doesn't do blockades. And then we go to episode one and suddenly they're blockading for money. That's called backstory. That's called backstory and it needs to be in your movie. It doesn't have to be episode zero. You just have to understand where the characters are and what's happening. I'm talking about changing things that have been established in the story that you've told so far. But if you're going to establish something, if you're going to establish something, then you have to establish the backstory of that thing from the beginning because you have the beginning of the prequels now. Why do we need a prequel series? Why do we need a prequel series anyway in the first place? If everything is told in episode four. Oh my God. Sorry, I hate when people make that argument. I understand that. It's not even, it's just a point about the fact that you need to explain what's in the movie for us to understand what's happening. Yeah, enough pieces are there to piece it together, all right? Except for the questions that we have. Because it's minutiae that people are asking. I dare you to put a new hope under the same lens as you can dance a minute. I just didn't apply to the prequels. You have to know every single little thing. Again, so tell me why the empire was back to the whole thing. It's not every single thing. It's not every single thing. Explain to me why, what was the empire's overall like oppression of the galaxy. You're emphasizing that stuff. What is the idea of mutually assured destruction? It's a nuclear threat. We clearly understand in a new hope what the stakes are and what the empire's motivation is. It's all laid out to you in like the first five minutes of the movie. It's an empire. They wanna control everything. There's rebels fighting against them. The rebels stole the- They don't wanna control everything. They don't wanna just have anyone in their way to get those plans back. It's all set up very easy. And there's a trade-through with someone watching the fun. Yeah, simple. And what did you say about the Death Star plans though? Excuse me? The rebels have stolen the Death Star plans and the empire will do whatever it takes to get it back. That's the conflict of the movie. Where did they get the Death Star plans from? How did they get them in the first place? It says in the title crawl that spies stole the Death Star. Yeah, but where do they steal them from? How did they steal the empire? That's what you're trying to do. Oh, it's not important. I don't know these things, right? No, I thought you had to tell the next story. You have to answer every next story question somebody could possibly have. This is where the straw man comes from, okay? The trade federation and what their motivation is is the central conflict of the entire fucking movie. We understand what the conflict and the motivation of the empire is. This has nothing to do with a minutia detail that you're talking about. I mean, to bring it back to what I said 20 minutes ago. Are we happy to concede it is a thin, thin inference that they're doing it strictly for the money? Is everybody happy to concede that? Yes, but on the whole point of this argument is if that's well written. Do you think that having thin writing to explain your mistakes? A shallow world is good writing. That's not good writing. Is that more thin than just saying the empire is evil because we say so and that's it? Oh, the empire is evil because we say so and then we see them acting on it as opposed to in the prequels where Padme says my people are dying and then we don't see any people outside of her personal retinue that's even in the city. I would accept if the trade federation said we're an authoritarian government and we just want to take over everything. That's more of a motivation than that's given in the fantabettis. That's not, we don't even get that. If New Gunray and his associates, if they were sitting around and they said we want to control Naboo, they have plasma then that would make sense. If they just had one line. What does that play in the grand scheme of things though? They're Palpatine's puppet. They want to get money from Naboo so they do what Palpatine says. Palpatine's given them assurances, right? Again, Palpatine's playing both sides of the fence here. He's new to land the trade federation and he's also got his persona in the Senate and he's just waiting for the time to, again, push that vote against Valoran. The reason he's attacking Naboo or assigning them to Naboo is for a sympathy vote. And also because he knows the government. He knows how Armadale operates in the light jazz. Too hard to grasp. The Palpatine is not the conflict that the heroes in the movie are working against. That's just something that's going on in the background. The movie's titled The Phantom Menace, dude. If the movie was about some senator trying to block Palpatine's plans, then yeah, I would agree with you, but it's not. The movie's just Palpatine's in the background just doing shit. The movie's entirely about the main characters are engaged with the central conflict, which is the trade federation versus Naboo. It's all about freeing Naboo. Correct. And I have the occupation of Naboo so I'm confused what your point is exactly. The point is a million times we don't understand what the stakes are. We don't understand what will happen if Queen Armadale assigns the treaty. We don't understand what exactly the trade federation wants from Naboo or why they're doing any things that they're doing. And if we don't understand these questions, then we're not going to be emotionally invested in the conflict. And Lord of the Rings, when the orcs are coming down, they go, oh, these orcs are going to come down and they're going to fucking kill everyone. The stakes are very clear. Can I just be frank? Do you really just hang up on every single little detail and say to yourself, where's the emotional conflicts? Do you just like watch and pay attention? In my rise of the Skywalker review, one of the first things I talk about is that the conflict in the movie is incredibly inherently flawed because Kylo Ren, who's the bad guy for most of the movie, wants the same thing that Rey, the protagonist, wants in the movie. This is one of the first points I bring up. And you can't have a movie that has no conflict where both the protagonist and antagonist want the same thing. Now, Phantom Menace has a conflict in that there's two different sides that want different things, but we don't understand what the fuck the conflict is or why it's happening. So it's the same problem. Save the Queen and liberate the planet. That's the fucking conflict right there. Why is this happening? Why should I care about it? Yes. Oh, we're going in circles, buddy. We are going in circles, and I'm free to move on from this topic. If we're all in agreement we're going in circles, I'm happy to move on. We're going in circles because we can't even get to the main point. Which is, is that well written? Yeah, the debate topic is whether it's well written. Okay, not whether you liked it or whether someone is bothered by it. It's not whether it's well written. And I don't see how anyone can defend the fact that we don't understand the central motivation for the primary antagonist in the movie as being well written. I'm not already. The motivation is money. The stakes are invasion. That's the whole conversation we just took a few hours. Great. Great. That's the answer to your question. The second generation of secondary antagonist, not the primary antagonist, it's the Palpatine. Alright, that's fun. I wanted to point out another little detail, because in case you guys want to throw this in my face. I'm going to use my phone to call you and I want to see you next time. You're not going to. No, he's gonna rescue the queen and he wants to get her off planet. I'm. I mean, the whole reason the trade federation again, I was going to invade it. And I'm like, you'reèn disappeared. I don't know what you said. Oh. You have your name, you put your noise eight on discord down or something? Me now. Yeah. Yeah. right? Yeah. Yeah. Good. Sorry about that. I know. So the whole like the trade federation they just wanted their money and then they just wanted to piece out right? Invaded because the whole reason they escalated and like invaded is because they'll press time because the Jedi arrived, right? Jedi force the hand he's like this turn events unfortunate we have to accelerate our plans begin landing your troops is like my law is illegal. I then the people like arm and dollar and the people down on the boo they're like the Federation wouldn't dare go that far. It's like some murky shit that they're doing right? And then we're quite gone and rescue the Queen. I gone wants to get her off planet as quick as possible because he doesn't know why the trade federation are doing this because it's very uncharacteristic of them. It's like they will kill you this day and then like they insist like no no they need to her to sign a treaty and he's like minus and that up at a whole day in Bay where they got to gain from it. There's no logic even says it's not logic in the Federation's movie it feelings tell me that will destroy you like and then that's what makes it a plan and then we's referencing is like you know who is behind this it can't be the trade federation there's something else so even a character Obi-Wan Obi-Wan first line of movies I got a bad feeling he's like I said I got in a character in the movie mentions that the plot of the movie makes no sense and this is a defense of the writing of the movie yeah the whole reason it makes no sense because they're being manipulated by a palpatine for clarification describes them we get it the point is they're cowardly sort of mega super genius and everything that he does works cuz it's the will of the force and he can darken the force I'm sorry that's not well written that's baby writing that's not detailed writing that doesn't give us character motivations and complex character conflicts between each other that gives us a blanket that allows us to do whatever we want flex conflict deep bullshit just focus on what's going on all right I don't need to have a fucking fucking thesis about every single fucking character to care about what's going on okay but don't tell me that it's well written then you just have to pay attention okay so that's a great that's the comment from Qui-Gon is specifically to let the audience know that they wouldn't have done this on their own they're too cowardly the idea is that there may have been a motivation be it greed or control of Naboo but Sidious is the one that spearheads it for him that line that when there is when they're debating whether the Queen should stay on the planet or leave the planet and the security guy saying they should she said stay on the planet because they're not gonna hurt her and then Qui-Gon says this whole thing doesn't make sense yeah he's the point is that if it were just a trade federation he's saying the trade federation's invasion makes no fucking sense he's saying that they wouldn't normally do this and that despite the fact that they're very likely not to her to this situation is very unusual and he senses that she will be hurt by them right but that shows that explain if you don't understand what the fuck's going on how's the audience or is it the issue that quote from his perspective based on what he knows it doesn't make sense so like I said from what we've been over there is enough to infer especially from the line where they say that um they'll have no choice but to accept your control of the system that's what Sidious says to Gunray meaning that Gunray would have to be invested in the idea of controlling Naboo he does seem kind of excited about it throughout the film when they're reporting on different sectors being taken control of and they're described as greedy is that not enough I'm not saying it's strong I'm just saying is that not enough to want to as a motivation they want Naboo they want money they're too cowardly to do it on their own they've been goaded into it by Sidious he's puppeteering them no we first of all we again we don't know if they want money just saying that they're greedy doesn't mean anything well I called it an inference it's okay it's okay it's okay we went over this I called it an inference I thought we agreed on that that this is shallow writing or even George Lucas says he doesn't know and doesn't care and we can move on this is a movie design for 12 year olds to comprehend okay there's a movie for space was just yeah I got it cool thank you Patrick well that was my argument I was saying it has to be written stupid it was for 12 year olds I'm saying it's designed for 12 year olds to comprehend okay it's on me let's move on I'm fine with that let's move on yeah the next point you guys have a point about how it's good now do you want or do we want us to keep it when I was dad going I guess yes okay well I guess if we're going in chronological order the movie bring it the robot says their Jedi how the real okay so the protocol drawer comes in says to the new gunray that they're Jedi how the fuck does the robot know that they're Jedi he says to be fair I'm gonna sitch she says I presume okay right the robot and look like Jedi well first of all they're just wearing robes okay you can't see their lightsaber you can't see Obi-Wan's paddle on hair braid and then new gunray decides to murder two diplomats based on the presumption of a protocol droid thinking that they're Jedi well it's to be fair to be fair Sidious tells them to do that but that goes again into the point that they're willing to Jedi so how does the droid know that they're Jedi because I'm perfectly reasonable to understand that this protocol droid understands what the Jedi are because they've been around for three thought after like a thousand years it's just two people wearing clothes I understand that but that does appear to be the Jedi's police uniform wait there's like a million people that were cloaks in Star Wars every literally almost every character was cloaks in Star Wars well I mean cramming if I'm wrong but on protocol droids and this is the status in the in the IT on protocol droids meant to be like interpreters like they meant to like identify things I'm perfectly reasonable with them presuming that but what I have a problem with is why when Sidious says to kill them immediately they're like okay fine we'll just kill Jedi we'll just kill the the people that were most scared of that's the reason probably why they're going to the Sith I don't know but they're willing to do this thing when they're known to be diplomats that's how that that steak tells me that they're willing to do just about anything for this so again not knowing what they want to go back to that point unfortunately is really frustrating because they're willing to go and kill these Jedi on on the whims of Sidious well I mean I think that I mean well I mean I'm surprised you have a problem with that as opposed to being I mean what it's pretty it was pretty clear you had a problem with it before I mean I think invading a planet is worse than going to Jedi they're willing to do that for Sidious comes back to the same point for example it's but it's weird because if the if the blockade is legal I'm sure that murdering Jedi and diplomats are not legal so no no because um no because okay because um what's gonna happen when the Jedi don't report back to their temple uh well what what happens in the film they deny that they ever arrived right isn't that what they do sure yeah that means be sent in secret yeah right and and but the Jedi themselves don't have any kind of communication well I guess what you're highlighting is they would be concerned right like Yoda and uh I don't know mace wind would be like what the fuck they're gone where are they and but what what you know if anything all they're doing is delaying until they can ratify their taking over of Naboo which should only take I just you know X amount of time it shouldn't be as long as it would take for the Jedi to be like right fuck this we're all going to Naboo in response to our Jedi going missing or something I just want to point out that Yoda consents Anakin's feelings and thoughts on tattooing so I'm surprised that he couldn't meditate and figure out that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were in danger but that's another here no there that's kind of a nitpick I just find it very interesting that um the there's a whole plot mechanic of jamming communications that somehow makes it impossible for anybody to communicate with anybody else it seems very convenient but Sidious can Palpatine can video conference call in and then suddenly they blunt communications and nothing can get off the planet and there's no time in between any of these periods when the Jedi thought maybe we should hijack the systems on the ship before we go down send out a message maybe let's go and warn Naboo instead of I'm pretty sure the highest priority was hey we need to get down to Naboo we need right but they could but they could send the Republic a message to Velorum Velorum could bring that case to the Senate and then that would change what would happen because he's the Chancellor and I don't know he doesn't have the emergency powers but bringing that up in the Senate that he got word from his Jedi diplomats that there's a blockade going on and that they're going to invade the planet right now that would be very helpful but they don't think about it again Naboo like this is meant to be settled like sort of outside the Senate again it was sent if they if they find out that the the Chancellor undermined the Senate by sending two Jedi's in secret and he's going to be in trouble isn't he I'm gonna be like okay well this you know as far as that also gets Velorum into shit you know that way. The claim is that he sent the Jedi secretly because he was undermining the Senate. There's nothing that's getting done yet. None of that's ever explained or told in the movie that is a fan speculation. I mean it's not it's not a fan speculation they see wait what's your what's your what's your what's your grievance I'm sorry. We we don't know why he sent the Jedi in secret. That the vice-chair says that he's like I knew it they're here to force a settlement. So wait a minute wait a minute so in the prequels I thought in the original trilogy the implications that Jedi are the peaceful guardians and monks of the universe so now in the prequels why are they shown to be weird thugs that violently settled disputes according to Gunray. They're weird thugs they don't do anything I don't I don't. Why is New Gunray so terrified of the Jedi if he's just forced. He's full respected monk. I would I would caution from Glib sorry from from Qui-Gon's perspective he seems to think this will be easy to solve he doesn't look to be saying to Obi-Wan we're gonna be fucking threatening their lives if they don't listen to us it seems to be the. Why is New Gunray so terrified of them. Well they describe just cowardly this could be how they respond to anybody like coming to settle anything. Well wait a minute I know because it seems first of all it seemed like when when they show up Newt wasn't surprised that they were ambassadors showing up to talk about this he was only surprised that they were possibly Jedi okay that's when he started to freak out yeah and from the title crawl of Phenomenis they're just described as the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy to settle the conflict very interesting. So I guess so my question. He didn't attack on the client as well like you know he says Obi-Wan's returned from a board of disputes on said planet exactly a many many things so disputes are conflict and they settle the conflict is that not God in peace. So why no that's not the point my point is first of all why was it done secretly if this is what Jedi are supposed to do and secondly why is Newt so fucking terrified of these peaceful guardians of the galaxy. You've got to think of Newt's position he's planning to invade the planet and the Jedi here to settle a blockade of course you'd be very stressed out. But we don't know why he wants Naboo other than this. Well that's a come back if we I was just addressing Sitch's point though. Here's my but here's why this is important okay because in the beginning of the movie it's established that our villains are primary villains the trade federation in this movie are all bitches and cowards and stupid and ineffective. So how can they have a giant fucking army dude. I wouldn't describe him as ineffective. Which is weird. Whenever we see the Jedi fight the droids all they do is they just easily cut them down or whatever they stand no fucking chance. So when you have in the first we'll get to that. Jedi come on board their ship totally wreck these guys crap and they stand no chance against the Jedi. How is there conflict in the movie? How is there emotional tension in the movie if the antagonists are all incompetent idiots. It's not about the droids wipe out. Let me let me let me let me cut you off right there. The Newt Gunray is not incompetent. He's oddly assistant when I fuck his name. He and Austin's like have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before. He's like oh and he's like seal off the bridge. He says we will not survive this. That's what he says. He says if you will not survive it. How is establishing your villains as weak in the beginning of your movie a good writing strategy. How are they weak though. They're literally. The Jedi cut them down like butter. Wait so power level wise right. Power level wise. Give it a sec. So the Gunrays they're they're in charge but they don't have the force or lightsabers. Of course a Jedi can chop them in half. That's not a shock. Tarkin could have been chopped in half by a Jedi. Right that's a different argument. The first one was how are they threatening. They're threatening because they have a whole set to control. The ability for them to be chopped in half by a Jedi is irrelevant. Like I said Tarkin can have that done to him if he's in the right place at the right time. I understand that Newt Gunray doesn't want to get in a physical fight with Obi-Wan. That's not my point. My point is that what he represents should be a threat to the protagonist. That's where the tension in the conflict in the movie comes from. So if him and he represents is a Jedi. You're right that the Jedi cut through the the droids like butter. Sure but the droids do defeat the Binks tribe and they get we are told that they're wiping out Naboo pretty easily. Like they're not yeah well you just said that they're like not threatening at all so there's they do achieve something. And at the start of the movie the droids do almost kill Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and they drive him off the ship. They have to still wait. They shoot at them and then they Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon just run away with super speed. Yeah because they almost kill them. Effortlessly block their laser to say oh we can't reflect it back because they have shields. Let's just run away now. It's not almost killing someone. Darth Maul with Obi-Wan's hanging the thing. It would have been killed if they didn't leave. I would have actually went down and killed. It would have been killed if they didn't still in the ship and still on the ship and go down the droids. Let me get back to the the original point okay about why this is important. Okay even if the droids are threatening to the Naboo people who have no fucking army that doesn't matter. What matters is in in a story you the conflict derives from watching your protagonist trying to accomplish some goal and the antagonists are trying to stop them. So if our protagonists are the Jedi and the antagonists are these things that fucking can't stop them for shit then you're removing all tension from the movie. Okay all right well what if I told you that's the whole premise of the movie start with. The Jedi are just trying to be at the height of the power. Jedi are just trying to be at the height of the power right. They start off on the ship right and the trade federation sends their battle droids off and it's like okay we'll gas them and then if they still allow some of the battle droids in there to them right. They didn't account for the Jedi's having the breathers. They just have to wipe the gas right and then they didn't account for the Jedi being able to test when they tie a squadron like. Wait a minute wait a minute. I'm gonna say I didn't use the breathers. That's one of my points in my notes. Alright fair enough then they can hold their breath for a very long time right. The point is. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. Before you go on they also can tell what kind of toxin it is just by looking at it right. Wouldn't that pay for that? Cool. I just wanted to I just wanted to point out that the the the trade federation is so incompetent they use a visible visible gas to kill the Jedi which they can ultimately know what it is just by looking at it and all they have to do is hold their breath. It's not like a neurotoxin that can go through your skin or anything like that. You have to physically breathe it in and the the doors open before that happens. So that's like that's like sure they didn't even wait on you know I mean like you know gassing someone is not an efficient way to kill someone. Yeah but this is this is also again this is this is the plinket point. This is the plinket point where it's like they why not why not pump gas in and then shoot them in the face with blasters. What what point do you have against that? Hey what what what point do you have against keeping the gas just keep pumping gas in there just keep pumping gas. Hold on hold on good we can get to that. I just wanted to say the breathers but we can find a way that they had it so what's the fact I didn't use them? I wanted to anomaly to finish this point and explaining why it doesn't matter that the antagonists are weak and ineffective. Yeah why that's a good point. Why that's not terrible writing. Yeah well first off how is that how is that bad writing by default? Doesn't that depend on the story? Because there are many ways to tell a story. What you're describing here is like okay storytelling 101 says do this or it's bad. Well I'll tell you I'll explain it I'll answer the question it's because as I said the emotion the emotional investments that people feel from a story is based around conflict and wanting to see your how accomplish some kind of goal whatever the goal might be and typically stories have some kind of antagonist who's preventing your protagonist from accomplishing the goal if the villains typically typically wait hold on true I'm not denying that okay so you agree so if the why am I most sitting quag on dying by the end of the movie? It would hold on emotional that's if villains are weak and ineffective throughout the whole movie then there's no conflict or tension in any scene that regards the protagonist and the antagonist coming to blows because you say oh I just know it's like they're just gonna fucking walk over them there's no emotion there's no emotional investment in for me or for anyone and that's why it matters. Well here to I guess to sort of structure this based on what Sitch just said can you think of can you provide an example that would show like otherwise or describe something that happens so we could start moving along because I I do I do like I do like to hear people you know talk about obviously the people obviously but I do feel like we need to progress mm-hmm I do feel there is a lot to talk about a lot to discuss I I have another point though that's that's further and right sorry so I guess such as a point about either the why okay to have an effective antagonist why that's okay and not terrible storytelling all right well then what I would what I would choose as a prime example would be the Avengers and the Chitauri and the Avengers uh they're they cut them down I think I might have I think I might have maybe explained that point poorly or maybe it was confused based on the question being asked maybe it's is is the issue a mechanical one that the droid army isn't effective is that the the issue is that you need effective antagonists for people to be emotionally emotionally invested in the story okay and so for the Avengers example the Chitauri army only shows up at the literal end majority of the movie the antagonist is Loki who keeps outwitting the heroes and is shown to be very effective at what he's doing until he's ultimately defeated at the end okay all right then I just I just want to point out that it's it's very difficult to take an enemy army seriously where in almost every scene they're making some sort of joke and they're robots that have personalities I don't every time they die they go wow man that's just a little clip for the kids right look oh right okay hold on a second whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa good writing had maintains a set of tone it doesn't just flip up the tone otherwise some of those jokes from the last Jedi would fly yeah so my point is that an ineffective unscary villains that can get cut down by butter like what Sitch is saying how is that good writing gets to that all right let me let me start off with his first point about the uh the droids being an effective and uh he used uh well we've talked about Avengers when we sitch like how uh Loki's the entire language as a counter okay and yeah and you you you that was a good point all right so in attack of the clones Jedi don't fight the droids to the end right the antagonists or the second antagonist up to that point is Jango Fett who does test Obi-Wan and does give him a run for his money what happens at the end Jedi cut to the droids like butter but what happens how many Jedi got killed by the battle droids yeah we'll talk we're talking about Phantom Menace i'm not talking about clone wars yet i'll be saying the battle droids are ineffective right and i'll get to in Phantom Menace effective yes against Jedi in small numbers all right now the point of the Phantom Menace and George Lucas has said as much he wanted to show the Jedi it's not very effective against an armed enemy either they do defeat the Naboo but Naboo Naboo without a formal army with just a small security force is able to capture no i was referring to the the end of the film the actual army they fight right right but i'm just saying that that the the trade federation is defeated by a little kid in a starfighter and a couple a handful of pilots and a handful of security guards of the queen's retinue with the help of a couple Jedi sorry even in the prequels that's not a scary force they're they're you know you're fighting goongas gungans that are throwing things at you and and they're marching at each other like it's the 1700s how is that a good dangerous force how is that good stakes how is that good writing they do defeat the gungans on the ground battle well until the brains could defeat the gungans yeah modern day military force with an air force could defeat the gungans okay they aren't they're an incompetent enemy fighting an incompetent force with a guy that's jumping around like killing people by having a droid stuck to his leg and he's just like jumping around going wow how how is that good writing that's right i mean that they didn't have strong enough weapons that's your definition i'm saying i'm saying that the the farcical tone and the farcical tactics are not good writing no it's the time of the movie so so it's a farce so star wars is a farce the first phantom in it they it's a yeah probably yeah so when kwaigon jinn gets stabbed it's it's funny it's a farce guys why would that mean that everything's funny because the it's a light-hearted movie i can't have dark moments well this is what we're saying is it's so it's inconsistent tone isn't that inconsistency in tone you can't have a sad moment and silly movie is what you're saying i didn't say that i didn't say that if you want to if you're trying to okay okay the whole point i think we're going we're going off the rails here again my the original point was that your protagonists need to have antagonists who pose a threat to them to create conflict for your story i'm curious to you when they when they ran away from the droid because does that not give them a threatening presence or is that not considered well no because we don't want to get help if they're going on the federation ship the jedi couldn't they could cut through a few battle droids but they obviously couldn't have to sneak out of the ship and hide they would have been killed by the destroyer right that doesn't which we don't even know because we literally see later in the scene where there's a giant hacker video and the guy says oh no we have to watch out there's a bunch of battle droids and kwaigon says won't be a problem he's completely dismissing the threat of the battle droids but not the droid because can i can i i also okay but answering your question mawler hold on i want answering mawler's question no because here's the the problem with the droid because the droid could show up the jedi deflect them and say oh no we can't easily just deflect the lasers back at them let's regroup and then they just run away doesn't show are the jedi in mortal danger the droid because don't even follow them i'm being completely honest to you the fact that they run away from them gives me the impression that they thought they couldn't beat them yeah they i'm okay with like they felt threatened yeah i'm okay with the droid because being dangerous against the jedi sure so the the best thing in the arsenal of the of the trade federation are the droid because against the okay but the okay but again it's not like if the entire army if they just cut down the battle droids at the beginning and then after that point like we have this army of droid because the chair like oh shit these droid because like really wreck our shit then i would agree with you but that doesn't happen the droid because literally only show up when they need to have a scene where the jedi you have to run away or people get captured they're not they're not part of the army they are part of the army they're all over the battle at the end of the movie and they're in the queen's house what's the part of the jedi you know like any need to grow up they only show up on the plot dictates that they need the heroes to be in trouble so you're complaining that we don't have an antagonist that can put the heroes in trouble but then you don't like it that's the primary threat in the prequel movies is these shitty droids that pose no threat to our protagonist and our protagonist okay but hold on a second imagine the scene where the jedi is well wait wait let i was gonna say let anomaly go he hasn't spoken for a while okay go on go on go on yeah go ahead um yeah so what i'm trying to get at is whole point of the opening and most of the phantom menace in fact is to show the jedi behind their power to show them slicing and dicing these guys and you're right yeah that doesn't um again we don't feel i mean i felt tension so i'm a couple times right but now i'm just watching and i enjoy because i know what's gonna happen obviously slicing and dicing and yeah it's meant to wow you're like wow the jedi aren't stoppable great um essentially you know i'm not from using the technique like gary stews right until they counter dive more and they're challenged not let's say they weren't challenged until more was not a threatening protagonist like i put them in real danger he killed one of the men it he kills the protagonist of the movie main character yeah i know if maul is a threatening protagonist that's the problem if he if they kill it's like okay think of like dragon ball z this is a perfect example okay yes you have you have nappa shows up you have nappa shows up and he destroys all the heroes very easily right and then goku shows up and he just instantly owns nappa okay if if the majority of the saiyan saga and the saiyan arc was goku just beating up nappas effortlessly you'd say wow that's really boring but no that's not what happens you have nappa shows up he defeats all the the heroes this establishes how powerful nappa is goku shows up he defeats nappa that establishes how powerful goku is but then the jeet is there and the rest of this the rest of the arc the primary antagonist is vegeta and goku is outmatched by vegeta the entire fight and he has to keep coming up with tricks and ways to defeat vegeta and use different techniques that's what i'm trying but you need to have a villain that's threatening to your heroes now darth maul is a threat to our heroes but he's not the primary antagonist in the film he only shows up twice once he just shows up and they run away and then the second time they have like a mini side boss in the middle of the the movie he's not the one she's the second day i mean i'm wondering how to define it i say intention for our heroes don't even know that he's even didn't even know that he's around it's almost the end of the movie did i cut out there i'm sorry yeah i didn't even hear you i'm sorry yeah so sorry he's asking me do i want to switch my audio i'm not so i'm not too anyway this was lagging so let me just bring back the dragon for a second well what about when in marge and bhusaga when uh was it goku vegeta and gohan remember they're beating up bobby's thugs and they wipe them out easily yeah there's not much tension there but then they come up against boo himself right or they'd say debora and then it is a challenge i that's what you're saying like i don't really understand well okay so imagine if imagine if 90 percent of the boo saga was goku vegeta beating up bobby's thugs and then the last 10 percent was just boo that's what the phantom and but again the phantom and it's like the droids pose a threat to the jedi they just don't pose a threat in large numbers again the attack of the clones you fear for the jedi when posed against the the battle droids because they're in large numbers are a threat again the battle droids kill more people than the stormtroopers do you have to talking about phantom menace though we have to look at each individual still kill more people than the stormtroopers do in the phantom menace they just don't kill jedi in they the jedi never on steven and don't look all right let me put this way what happens when they encounter a giant army of droids jedi don't engage they f***ing hide right they see the droids and like yeah s*** we gotta hide and sneak dance in a group attack of the clones they get and which by an army and they're f***ed why do people mock the the stormtroopers being incompetent in the original trilogy and in the sequel and not being able to hit the heroes at all why do people mock that so is that question or yeah that's a question why do people make fun of the stormtroopers not being able to hit the heroes in the original trilogy and in the sequels that's retarded because they don't have soldiers because it makes the story have no tension if you see a bunch of stormtroopers who you know pose no threat it's the same problem you can't handle the way the droids now they are very threatening just don't hit me the stormtroopers i'm sorry but if somebody shot at me and they never hit me i wouldn't really be scared the next time that i went in i could like oh no they're gonna shoot around us what are we gonna do i guess run to the objective plot arm and you hope it's a bad movie because the stormtroopers don't hit people enough i don't think i think it's a severe flaw to not have to in the movie where he says you know only imperial stormtroopers are the so accurate and then they never hit anything again that's a flaw sure yeah i mean i wasn't really meaning to go that way i'm just using it as like you know like you point this out for the pre was that the the entire time threatening when they are it just depends on the circumstance stormtroopers are threatening just in the circumstance i just point out that the stormtroopers are being shown uh collectively to be less impactful than the droids and you're claiming the droids to be not threatening i don't think that the main battle droids are threatening i think that the droid because actually do represent a legitimate threat to the jedi since in the movie we see them run away every time it's totally fair i agree with that maybe i disagree with such a little bit you know but i think that he has a great point in that the tension of the movie would be a lot better if the battle droids all were more dangerous we saw them being more serious at the battle it's very easy to make how different they're disposed of they're not very sophisticated it takes on how would you still i think that's what he's referring to what i want to say is what i want to say is how different would the movie be if it were the super battle droids instead of the battle droids the whole time wouldn't they be more intimidating things more joyous yeah more all different companies you're saying wouldn't all right this is where i have a major issue the criticize pretty close your argument now is wouldn't this have been way cooler if no it's not i'm that's not that's not no no i'm saying what i'm trying to but i'm trying to get out of what i'm trying to extrapolate is that there already is a more dangerous looking battle droid right we admit that the super battle droids are a greater threat than the regular battle droids because they've got a double risk blasters what does that have anything to do with what i just said worry wise yes it does because they show up later i but i didn't say anything i'm sorry what i asked is if they're more intimidating and more dangerous yeah okay so are you talking about super battle droids or about destroyer droids yes the the ones that don't joke around that have the beefy torsos that are silver that are that have the heads connected to their bodies they're from the attack of the clones i thought we were talking about destroyer droids i understand that okay i'm just asking you think they're more intimidating yeah he's asking about hypothetically would it be better if the general general purpose infantry unit of the droid army whatever droid that is was more deadly incompetent and serious no because the point of the opening of the movie is to show what the jedi can do to show that the jedi you're talking about just like two or three scenes in the movie where yeah the jedi aren't threatened by the weakest type of droids that the bad guys have which actually i mean your your point before was about the stormtroopers it's exactly the same in a new hope is that the storm troopers aren't that effective but then Darth Vader shows up there's different levels of bad guys i don't see how that makes the whole movie bad because in certain scenes i was actually going to say a point of point to clarify is the stormtroopers are not ineffective in a new hope they are super effective in the opening and then they're deliberately ineffective according to Darth Vader's orders later on as for empire they're very effective in hearth they're not very effective in bespin it's a 50-50 and then in return of the jedi they're embarrassing okay so no but really return i shouldn't watch out i apologize that's that's really returning jedi that is true but okay so but what you said i want to kill any jedi i want to address what you just said about how it's just the opening of the movie that would be that would be totally fine if if the trade federation wasn't the main antagonist it was just here's a scene that establishes who the jedi are and that they're badasses and they're powerful and then the rest of the movie is some completely different antagonist that would be fine but that's not what happens again i go back to the Goku example Goku beats up Nappa to establish how badass Goku is and then he fights Vegeta for the rest of the arc he's not keep fighting people like Nappa's power level for the rest of the movie that's what the could not make the same argument that like the jedi show up and they die from battle droids because they're easy and the droid droids show up and uh the the jedi struggle same with dopp muller they fight more battle droids and then they can't get stuff on and they have to struggle i would be fine if the rest of the movie the droidikos are always there posing a threat to the jedi but i don't even think if i recall correctly that the jedi even fight droidikos at any point after that yes i believe i show up and then i'm fighting any piece from the droid army there's only i'm gonna lie like what the droids they're hardly not going to say what you're saying um i'm not gonna lie like when i i keep cutting out you might have uh say it again just to make sure okay yeah okay cool um like the when the the droids showed up in uh the nabu uh ship hangar when um jedi start to deal with more um i was actually like my seat i was like oh shit like what are they gonna do now like the not even the jedi could stand up to these the jedi running away from the destroyers made the the the destroy droids feel like an whole shit like these things here what are we gonna do right yeah i don't see but again they're not the droidikos are not the central threat of the army right before that as a fashion as the battle droids that's the difference yeah okay so you have a situation where again if you had on all droidikos situation then the the the first time when the jedi show up it wouldn't be so easy for them to free the the queen and then go away the queen instantly they could just kill all the battle droids and fly the queen to the to the coruscant they couldn't just come back and just cut through everything like butter that's that's what i'm talking about they're there why would you make your antagonists purposely suck can you can you just admit that that's a little bit silly aren't because that even quag on going back there with the queen is like i know what you expect like um what this is gonna change because you know if the army comes after there's nothing i can do like i can protect you but i can't take on an army for you so is the idea here that the whole point of the typical battle droid is that individually they are not good or effective at all it's that you can make a bunch of them and you use overwhelming numbers of them point is that in good in good storytelling you typically want your antagonist to be threatening and that is where detention comes from and that the battle droids in the freakle movies with the exception of droidikos who we barely see are all weak and ineffective and suck and we see the jedi just wipe them all out with ease except in attack of the well i'll talk first we're talking about the family so for the for the sake of clarity right so they slice through them in that opening battle until the droidikos show up then they slice through them again when they save uh amidala then they slice through them again when they're getting to the access to the ship and then they slice through them on their way back into uh feed when the jedi do just before they fight more so there are four instances of these fights one of the men's with the jedi technically losing to the droidikos but the whole point is that the battle droids themselves are just you you can't take them seriously as threats is that that's where we're at right yeah we can move on from them with the real maybe maybe the issue here is that the kind of to give each side a bit is the issue isn't necessarily the units used it's where they're placed for instance why if we establish how powerful the droidikos are why are they not the ones escorting queen amidala why are they not the ones guarding the high priority targets so it's about you can make that logical argument that's not i mean i was even making a logic argument i was making an emotion a story emotion argument but you can make that logic argument too why aren't the droidikos everywhere they're so effective well you high next to their really high like guarding the queen for instance right when they're transparent her i'd be willing to accept that they are limited but it would be interesting to know why they're not in the high priority areas i'm still stuck on the story point of the droids being weak the story point is that they do see in the movie that the regular battle droids are weak that's why they upgrade them by phantom menace i mean by attack of the clones they upgrade them to the super battle droids and that's why they needed clones because the battle droids could only go so far i mean it's kind of what the battle droid room there to show is that this was a society that they hadn't had a war for a really long time they weren't very good at it so they had to upgrade in the following movies the battle droids being bad is the impetus for the the whole clone wars for the moratorium strategy is changing and for what happens in the next two movies okay so if you're if you want to see that the the droids are terrible and they're supposed to be terrible i guess that's fine i'm telling you that that they're not bad writing to be disagree that's fine right i don't know you miss my point just representing what i'm saying i'm saying they're meant to be terrible i'm saying they are terrible against jedi which is a very highly skilled or yeah these motherfuckers are enforces the whole galaxy right right against them in small numbers uh effective right against naboo and queen amadala herself they are a very serious threats and even they aren't numbers but they aren't they are not because they lose they lose very very simply to a very very minor force i outlined before what the force disposition was the force disposition of the naboo forces all of them together with their indigenous troops they defeat the droid army by capturing their king essentially so they are not effective they outsmart them they get they remember amadala uh was in and then her decoy catches up and drives the droids away most of them anyway and then she's the plant and she knows they're in the throne she knows what she keeps the guns and she can access it she takes out the guns hands what's what captain and then they they outsmart them they didn't beat him by force right because because of because uh because of the fact that they're using these incompetent goofy droids that's how the queen is allowed to make her plan so they're ineffective because the battle droids don't stop hold on because the battle droids do not stop the jedi from freeing the queen to go out re gather her forces and go in there and win the day they're ineffective as a unit against well against all naboo because they lose they lose everything they lose everything it doesn't matter if look it doesn't this is like it doesn't matter if the droids were the most effective killing force in all the universe against everyone but the jedi if the jedi are the protagonists of the movie that's all that matters i don't and by the way i don't see how they didn't win the day how does blowing up the command ship translate to the trade federation wins that's a different that's something totally different what i'm saying is is that the the battle droid army as a whole loses and is ineffective as a unit in the phantom menace as a whole just because they take the queen for five seconds and then lose to a couple jedi just because they take over the planet and then eventually lose to the plan of a queen that's 16 years old and a bunch of lizards that live in the swamp they are ineffective is just incompetence and it's bad writing so you just want to be more dangerous yeah yeah i want the antagonist to pose a threat to the protagonist to create the the emotion of tension in the movie that's all i'm saying more difficult now you could now you yeah and if you're saying that that doesn't matter okay you disagree you think it's fine Darth Maul is the appropriate amount on that account hold on a second i'm gonna address that Darth Maul is the appropriate amount of tension that should be facing the jedi as the thing that's chasing them that's why it works in that part of the movie it works because you have this bad guy coming after him i understand that the story reason is that the Sith are in secret and they don't want to reveal themselves to the jedi yet i understand that but that's why you would buff your basic soldier unit again the more droid is coming after them yeah and what if the author wants the jedi to be i don't really see how that's a flaw if it's by design the jedi are meant to be you know after the start okay you can we can just agree to disagree on this point yeah what feels like it means you're telling okay let's just move on if well if the if sitch was arguing that it was an emotional investment sort of point as in he's sitting there thinking oh whatever the jedi are going to cut through them every single scene while other people might be like ooh they are getting through this but there are other elements to consider or it depends on any numbers there are or what if droideka show up like there's still maybe tension filled elements for other viewers that if you guys want to thank first of all thank you ma we're trying to move on ma and you just sucked us right back in that was the conclusitory state but but uh no like if there was a scene the phantom anus were like a shit ton of the shitty baladroids showed up and the jedi are like this is too much for us to handle we gotta get out of here and then you establish throughout the movie like oh you know we can only fight the droids for so long because more and more are going to show up and then we're going to be outnumbered like if you establish a threat then that would be fine but again that threat not established i mean they do run away in their first fight i just had to say i i i'm really i'm willing to just move on and leave it at that i think be explained besides thoroughly um yeah move on go for it yeah all right go for it proceed to the next issue whatever a or may not be i want to hear from the side that believes it's good writing i want to hear how it's good writing i know how i don't want to i don't want to hear the negative response to us i want to hear a proactive argument from you about how it's good i think for the to the dominant we're going chronologically okay we can go chronologically again and then yeah point from there i thought that's what we were doing sure which let's continue with that yeah either side can go whichever one feels that they need to make a next point and if somebody's next point is before somebody or after somebody else's then we could just go five minutes in the movie and if it's good or bad whichever side can go can go okay well my next point was about the Palpatine telling them to kill the Jedi so if anyone has anything before that i guess um i mean i think it's perfectly telling to kill them i can move along and so you know the Jedi don't pull a runner and what's happening okay so i i guess okay so i guess my question is what the fuck is palpatine's plan in this movie if he tells the trade federation to kill the Jedi i'm assuming i'm assuming he thinks newt will actually successfully kill the Jedi so if he did successfully kill the Jedi the trade federation goes into naboo they capture the queen and they sign on the force to treaty how the fuck does this help palpatine become supreme chancellor because that would have been even better for palpatine if the trade federation killed to jedi and kidnapped a queen then that would have been more than enough for him to get a vote of no confidence and chancellor valorem he's trying to cut off the senate he wants the whole point is abuse uh uh exploiting his own planet to gain a sympathy vote for himself to gain power so okay so you're saying the whole plot line about forcing the queen to sign a treaty to make it legal is bullshit and that the trade federation is too stupid to understand that the concept of having a queen sign a treaty to make the invasion legal it just means that the trade federation is too stupid to realize that that's not a real thing it's not a it's a real thing but it's a thing that'll get them in trouble they do it because they're more scared of cities because they made a deal with cities in terms of which we don't know they're in it for their own game and they made a bargain with sears doing what cities want is there is something in it for them very clearly and again we're just we're just assuming it's money right you know it's probably applied by the movie but we'll just wait for the sake of for the sake of compromise we'll assume it's money right um that's what are you gonna say well no this okay i'm still on on the how palpatine's plan is supposed to work if everything went according to the way he wanted okay so right because he's saying that he signs the tree that says that the invasion is legal then the conflict supposedly just ends and then they can't vote against the chancellor so how does it help because they force her to they force her to sign a treaty she was still forced to sign that eventually it would come out in the senate she was forced to yeah the incompetent senate they can't figure anything out is gonna fix it the floor in the democracy what okay so you're so you're so so now you're arguing that trade federation is stupid and incompetent because they didn't understand that this plan stupid and makes no sense oh how's it what is the trade federation's plan to help city is again because we know we don't know the terms of their thing or maybe it's just for money they don't understand that what like what's it just saying they don't understand that the the repercussions in the senate are going to result in a vote of no confidence against chancellor valorem how does that help the trade federation why would the trade federation agree to do that because they're afraid of serious but we don't know why they're afraid of city is other than they made a deal with him that gets worse all the time for money or something you're claiming that the only reason the trade federation went along with this idiotic plan of trying to force a queen under duress to sign a treaty is because they're afraid of city is which isn't really established that that's their motivation for doing this and why they would be afraid of city is and then it also means that the trade federation and they're all fucking morons so i mean if that's the argument i guess we can move on from there but i mean i think fear is part of it that's um the the the trade federation at the end of the arena for themselves they don't know if they want which is but well how what are they gonna how are they gonna benefit from them getting to an action that's gonna cause a vote of no confidence in the senate how does that help their plan it's not the trade federation as palpatine's plan don't mean oh my god that is true the gunnery doesn't know that that's what palpatine's trying to do he doesn't know that palpatine is gunnery doesn't know that palpatine being chancellor has anything to do with anything right so how does it how does it benefit how does it benefit them so you're asking how does a vote of no confidence benefit gunray it's not supposed to right what i'm saying is what sitch's point is is that the trade federation is doing an action that palpatine is banking on will be negative in the senate and the trade federation because uh cityist says he'll make it legal are going to go down and do something that isn't legal right and my clearly they stand to benefit something my my point is that if everything went according and unless we're assuming palpatine's lying the entire time to the trade federation which i don't think he is if everything went according to plan if he killed the jedi if queen amadella signed the the thing to make it legal it wouldn't help palpatine become the supreme chancellor which i thought was the entire point of the war why wouldn't yeah it would help him he can use that for in any number of ways to help his case because uh naboo is still being oppressed and the senate is still failing to act under valorem's guidance if he can show that valorem let this the trade federation come to my planet and kidnap my queen and they forced my queen to sign this illegal treaty and then yeah that would get him the exact sympathy vote that he wants so let's try to get a vote for they can get a vote for no confidence against the chancellor in seconds that they can't vote to investigate to see if a war is going on in their own jurisdiction oh no the whole point the whole reason my arm the dog is back is because she didn't want to wait for the vote she and because she saw that message on the ship that you know uh over one like um that's the right word i'm looking for here he tells them that it's a fake but he doesn't truly know he even tells quiet and is like what if it's true and they really are killing people i was like doesn't matter we're running out of options here we're running out of time he's a this out um but then she goes back you see it and if she sees the message and that encourages her you are you don't know she's the queen at that point okay any so uh i guess when it comes to this uh it's it's the whole palpatine's plan that's the thing it doesn't seem to be making much ground this is actually returning to an older sort of discussion we've already have if because again we've got a lot of a lot of content to cover in a way so if you if you guys would prefer to just jump to something else let's not get into the motivation of the trade federation again well we're not just my only point is that palpatine palpatine's plan as per the movie if everything went according to his plan it wouldn't help him become supreme chancellor the only thing that makes him be supreme chancellor is the jedi fucking up his plan so i'm not sure what the heck was going on for clarification when you say going according to his plan do you mean the plan he presents to the trade federation or his own internal plan the plan he presents to the trade federation doesn't help him become supreme chancellor that wouldn't yeah all we need to all that matters is that he's getting supreme his goal in the phantom minister to become the supreme chancellor right it doesn't i don't think he cares what happens to the trade federation necessarily he's just looking to find a way to get a vote of no confidence into valorum right but that okay that's but my point is that if everything went according to his plan there would never be a call to no vote for uh there'd never be never be a no confidence vote if um if he got amygdala to sign that treaty and naboo was given up to the trade federation uh pad may could still in the hell may well a vote of no confidence could still be suggested and in fact if this is this was this is the thing like uh as it's happening it got done in a second and they couldn't figure out nobody was smart enough in this entire galaxy to figure out let's go find out if what they're saying is real no that's what they say they say they're going to do that they said that's the plan he says they're gonna say is that then then amygdala so so what is the point of amygdala saying no so amygdala's upset because she wants them to act now instead of voting on someone to go and find out if they should act which by the way is a relatively reasonable thing to do if they don't have the information they need they're going to find out if there's an invasion and then what and then come back and report to the senate there is an invasion and then what and then the senate vote for whether or not they're going to go rescue naboo from the trade federation but they're hoping what army means plans i don't know maybe the general galactic army yeah i mean i i can't answer that question okay somebody answer what the what the ultimate recourse of the galactic senate is if they've succeeded in their plan to figure out what's happening they would shut down what the trade federation is doing how would they do that army so how are they supposed to do that i'm sure that have like a you know a small force to sort of sort out these sorts of disputes but like you know what the general galactic are probably and yeah they could just send the jedi in full force and do it so why didn't the jedi just do that because they didn't know it was happening yeah the whole point is that the army dollar gets to the senate she has the information that it is happening she can't okay okay i don't talk about it reason why this is another thing correct she has the claim amadea tells them what's happening and the trade federation say that she's lying and they need to investigate first that's the whole point is that she doesn't want to wait for the investigation and the jedi can't corroborate this information to check so that they start the motions to get someone to check whether or not to see if the invasion is actually occurring so she couldn't bring evidence that it was happening i guess they don't have kind of left in a rush what nobody just has there's there's no security cameras there's no data there's no hologram system to see what's happening anywhere in the city we just have to go on somebody's word in star wars in addition to that um like the queen thought her testimony would be enough she didn't realize how broken the republic was until she went there and tried to put plead okay she says the palpatine is like i'm going back nothing's getting done here it's clear to me now the republic no longer functions so exact quote but they don't um also what was i saying you're probably gonna argue also is like why didn't they send all the jedi uh back to naboo with kwai on an obi one the reason why i didn't do that is because they wanted to draw out dothmore so why why didn't they send all the jedi because then dothmore would have been fucked doubt dothmore would have shown himself that was like tensile in jedi waiting for him okay but so there's the so you're admitting that there's nobody was had the foresight nobody had the thinking to bring in some sort of material evidence to prove that anything that on naboo was happening there's no way for that oh i'm saying one of the reasons that's one of the reasons why she didn't uh but also because they left in such a rush they wanted to get her out of there as soon as possible right and they couldn't bring in the they couldn't show off the ship that had got hit by the shield thing on it right they couldn't show off any of the material evidence that they had i don't think that would be very hard right but i yeah that wouldn't be hard to to get rid of in terms of evidence like they could be like that could have been shot by anybody at any time yeah okay also like the fly logs and anything like that wouldn't tell information that there's a blockade that nobody in naboo can get outside nobody can leave there's no information that can be transmitted in any way because the communications were blocked and by the way if the communications are blocked why don't you bring that up in the senate and say hey nobody on our planet can talk because the trade federation is blocking it let's call them let's call them right now in the senate i don't you're asking for like technical details about how their hologram systems work and all that and that's that's i mean you can you can i'm sorry is there i'm so i'm like is there a reason why they can't communicate in the senate to naboo to prove that there is a communications blockade that there is a trade blockade is there any in unit there's a communication in the center right so i mean they're already gonna go back there to check it okay so all they have to do all that the senate has to send someone to check it anyway so if i go into the if i go in with my communicator or whatever that's connected some radio link that's connected on course on and i say hey everybody in the senate look what i'm doing dial the number up naboo's not i can't get to naboo does that prove that there's an invasion well what does it prove proves the communication with naboo is down communication is down what's going on with that so yeah so send an envoy right right so send it away and then amidala amidala says oh no i'm not gonna find i'm not gonna prove my case i'm just gonna go back so she's dumb and she's a 16 year old girl that's elected to be queen of a nation which is also done 14 14 sorry 14 well it's how's she supposed to prove anything sitting on course on well how have she called them up ask the jedi to find out testify in the senate that they were trying again the other reason she decides to go back she does have first of all she has a plan because aja was you know told her they have an army and well i'm friends with a judge i may be able to work something out but also um again padna is all again i really like padna's character and we'll probably delve deeper into her as this they aware this is our progresses and we'll her more later but um always been a woman of like take charge action um and you know bravery all that stuff until the third moment her well i mean i'm actually disappointed by that in the third maybe that she wasn't more involved kind of a little too much of a yeah that's something i'll admit um um like again remember that when i tell like there's a detail she comes back onto the ship after you know rescuing anakin from naboo or whatever you want to call it um she sees the you know the message and she's in fearful of her people and then she's desperate to solve it nothing's getting done she has a way just to take back the feed and you know she wants to take out the visor takes out the visor so she can buy it for anything okay move the blockade shut down the droids or you know we have we have them hostage so she wants to do and she only uh takes action to do that when she it's a plan it's not dumb for doing that let's take action and she has a means of doing so that that is very stupid i think that she could then there was no reason to leave the planet i think the complaint was that she was dumb to waste time calling a vote of no confidence in the senate and the supreme chancellor which is going to make everything go slower as opposed to just agreeing that they send a ship which i assume takes less than a day in the star wars universe to go look at you know official republic ship to go look at the naboo and say oh look they're occupied by a joy army and then fly back that seemed like a pretty stupid thing for her to get involved with but who's the yeah but again she lost the she lost faith in the part right there she's like okay what if there's no commission uh commission you got to reconvene what you got to sort something else out what happens if this happens again if there's another roadblock um at least you know what do you mean palpatine or at least well she doesn't know palpatine's going to be supreme chancellor she doesn't even know he's nominated that's after that's a good point i'll give you that and also the as she says herself the supreme chancellor has been her biggest advocate i mean he's the one that also sent the jedi there so it seems like he's on her side wouldn't valorem be able to corroborate the statements hey there's a blockade going on where are those jedi that i sent on that secret mission i believe what armadal is saying because she made it so that in in court now we get them up and there's a communication he did undermine the senate's ascendant and then on top of that we don't how is it again that a blockade of trade is legal in republic terms so they're it's totally fine that they're just they're hovering over the planet we've already given up on that point but well we've already given up on that point but what's funny about that is that they don't think it's passed someone in the senate thinks that it's not possible that a blockade is gonna then proceed an invasion why would they not assume that isn't that exactly what precedes an invasion isn't that what a siege is about isn't that what a blockade is because the blockade's legal the invasion is not why is it legal that's not explained which is just a detail i'm sorry oh i'm sorry hold on a second i'm sorry that my my quest for information just comes down to minutia details about key plot points but this is a key plot point details though this is it but it is key key about it you know it's important to understand these things so that we can understand the larger scheme of things and and that's the thing that we keep coming to terms with is that it's like every point that stitch and iron make they're invalid because it's somehow part of a plan that has to do with palpatine or they're designed to be that way but even if we try to narrow the point down like the droids are impossible for you know they can't kill jedi unless they're basically and we can't admit that they're goofy even though everything every time that they die there's a joke every time that they're speaking to one of the jedi there's a joke yeah so i understand that but i'm just i'm just saying that it's frustrating to me on the points because it feels like there's no constant i want concession about things that don't make sense i don't want you to tell me that these details don't matter i don't debate because who were you to say that so she wanted for people to tell i'm sorry you're right when they don't agree with you look well again that's why we're here it's fine and you know it's it's it's fine this is not going to end the discussion on the prequels okay this is two people talking to two people sure this isn't the end no it's not it's not even the end yeah i know a lot of people thought it would be this was going to end the debate but you know and i know a lot of people want um are asking for anna to come in there's no way we'll be able to stock five uh people in here like this this it's not going to work we might uh she's uh anna that star wars kill she she knows her prequels um well she knows her stars we will perhaps organize another people debate in future and she can be on one of the teams it's just that obviously we can't just boot one of the participants that have her in or have her in as a 3v it's going to be chaos so to bring us back to um what we're just talking about if he had sent those uh jedi in secret he wouldn't be able to bring that to the senate i imagine that's an inference i don't know that he could use that as evidence and simultaneously even if he did bring it up he doesn't get an executive decision on i don't know declaring that there is an invasion you'd still have to prove it the the it seemed like as i said earlier seemed like newt is expecting ambassadors seemed like the only part that was secret was that the ambassadors were jedi and i don't know why that would suddenly mean and the question of is my planet under attack mean that they can't testify just because the supreme chancellor sent them there secretly um that would still not necessarily prove invasion though well no no wait testifying in court is considered evidence if it's a firsthand witness you mean you're saying the jedi could testify that there is an invasion happening on behalf of the jedi would testify we went we were the peacekeeping force of the galaxy that everyone is supposed to respect as being wise and not you know not deceitful and not attached to material possessions okay that everyone's supposed to respect the fucking jedi that's like the entire build up to their to the jedi order you tell me if they went to the senate and said the supreme chancellor sent us there and these guys tried to murder us they murdered our crew they destroyed our ship and then we went down the planet and we saw that they were capturing the city that would be a really big fucking deal and give a lot of sway in the senate but that never comes up it's never discussed it never happened that would still get that would still get below arm into trouble though because i did go into secret under his and then the senate would say him is undermining the senate we don't know the general the jedi are supposed to be impartial because none of this is explained as we talked about earlier i thought the entire point of the jedi was to settle disputes so how is him sending the jedi undermining the senate none of this is talked about in the there's no scene the movie where valorem says i wish you guys could testify but you can't because then i would get kicked out of office this is all speculation from the title crawl the assumption is that the republic are all dealing with this uh trade problem the blockade problem and they're getting caught up while the supreme chancellor whatever's decided if i let two jedi go over there they might be able to settle this easily calmly and it'll all be over that's probably why uh new gunray knows they're coming but the senate is unaware that that's happening because in in the opening before the jedi even land on the trade federation ship they talked to newt through you know the teleprompter essentially they call him and say the ambassadors for the supreme chancellor went aboard immediately right yeah not for the senate though so but no but so wait a minute so if the speculation versus this is all speculation but the speculation is that he can't have a jedi testify because he get in trouble that he sent them there but he sent them there to sell the dispute so if the dispute is suddenly settled that's gonna show that he sent the jedi there to settle it so the jedi were sent so the supreme chancellor has the authority to send of the jedi the senate would be against no rags rags they're saying they're saying that he doesn't and that's the problem and i'm saying none of this is in the mood well wait so if they if it worked send them then why did they if i don't know i don't well wait if it worked if they did sell the agreement the jedi wouldn't then come back and announce to the senate that they sold it it would just come across as oh i guess it got settled how great between you know naboo and the trade federation if they're in secret they that's probably that's probably what the jedi were going to do they were like what's the problem oh you should you guys should do this also we're gonna go now like they wouldn't have they wouldn't have been like we were the ones that did it they were there in secret this is so an official treaty it's just gonna be between the naboo and trade federation well no so the idea is if the blockade came to naboo there's clearly conflict there valorem is like damn this this senate is just arguing back and forth day in day i'm going to send the jedi in secret to settle it and for some reason that we don't know he doesn't have the authority to send the jedi well um maybe if the if the senate would be really useful if it was public to the senate if he announced it to the wait hang on so if he announced it he sent them the the the theory would go if he announced it to the senate they would vote on it the whole idea is they're caught up they're tangled red tape all kinds of stuff there's no nothing's getting done he sends them to hopefully solve the problem quickly and quietly but what so the advantage of having it done quickly and quietly as opposed to just having it be known that we sent negotiate like i've sent negotiators i imagine that has to be official and the the problem was it wouldn't it wasn't going through the senate so he did it quickly i know this is so is it established that the senate didn't wouldn't approve of negotiators it just all it's all it says is the they're tangled in endless debates so like i'm assuming the point of that statement is the whether like that would be one of the many possibilities that the senate are trying to deal with but there's no consensus so the jedi so the that would mean that the jedi agree with the supreme chancellor and allow these two jedi to go i assume so and yeah the because the jedi do think that they're kind of like the best dudes on carcin they'd be like yeah we'll solve it send two of our guys so all it says in the opening title crawl is that the congress of the republic endlessly debate this alarming chain of events so it doesn't say anything about the congress saying that supreme chancellor can't send jedi to wait a second i'm sorry there's no specifics i want to try and clarify a few things um so if the case was that they weren't supposed to go and they had to be sent in secret because the senate didn't approve it then why would they be announced as being sent by the supreme chancellor to the tread federation well i mean the trade federation will know they're coming there's no way about that is there one of the trade federation if they don't want to if they don't want to agree to what the jedi would say wouldn't they just threaten to expose this plot and i suppose they could this would this would be the perfect way this is the perfect plan for palpatine if the whole point is to get a vote of no confidence in the chancellor then he should just tell the trade federation to just call the senate and said the chancellor fucking sent undermined you and sent secret jedi and we should need to vote him out of office i think that's a possibility i'm going to that i don't know how to prove that here but here's the other thing counter to that valorem wait wait wait wait wait you ask how would he prove that because the jedi are sitting on his ship and they can just show a hologram of the jedi sitting on the ship at this very moment they're right there the security cameras i i'm at they have that they have poisonous gas that goes in the rooms i am assuming they should have security cameras somewhere they also have holograms that can security cameras that holograms that they talk to each other okay but hold on a second because the other point is that valorem could call in and say hey guys while you were calling for me as a with a vote of no confidence i sent these jedi because we were deadlocked let's hear from them let's hear what really happened yeah this is the last ditch effort or the whole point the whole thing that sparked this discussion was why didn't the jedi testify to the senate okay and the answer that was given was well because maybe maybe the speculation is that senate the supreme chancellor wasn't supposed to send them but that doesn't work because then palpatine would just expose that and getting the movie and there would be his vote of no confidence and we could skip the rest of the movie so we still don't know why the jedi didn't testify to the senate yeah i mean if there's any any counters i don't really see how that voids the whole movie wouldn't the jedi have to still make it back to co-resents no i'm saying it voids the whole movie in terms of palpatine's plan is already accomplished if all he has to do is tell the trade federation to tell the senate that they secretly send jedi and that's apparently wrong or illegal or whatever it doesn't get the trade federation what they want though which is why yeah but palpatine isn't why does palpatine give a shit about that they have a trade federation seem to be a means to an end to palpatine yeah it's just trying to say that like if the ultimate goal is of no confidence he's got the opportunity right there to expose the valorum has secretly subverted the senate or assuming this is the reason because none of this is all speculation none of this is explaining the movie why the jedi don't test i was definitely an inference i'm only going from what i think that i was not gonna give you that you can't you can't not give me that you don't inferences i'm saying i don't think it's fair to infer that just because they're sent in secret suddenly means that if the supreme chancellor were to ask the jedi to testify that suddenly that would mean that he's going to no not that part i'm saying that the republic didn't send approve the jedi because they're tangled in debates like that that would be the inference but that's but that's part of the promise that we never they never explain how their public and the jedi council function hey well i got a counter i got a counter any of this stuff i got a counter that wouldn't give palpatine a simple though sure it would his planet is being invaded by the trade federation and the supreme the supreme chancellor tried to sweep it all under the rug oh for shame but like if he if he just has to okay just just record the jedi resolve the you just do what they say um then just give me the evidence i'm not i'm not i'm not saying i'm not saying that he would i'm saying he would tell the trade federation to just record the jedi that they showed up i'm not saying he would tell them to do what the jedi say they would record that still does give uh i've seen the sympathy vote though sure it does because you get yeah sure because the trade no because the trade federation haven't done anything wrong what do you mean the trade federation they did they tried to they they tried to kill the jedi but they tried to kill the jedi with poison that's what sparks well wait a minute they killed the whole pot plays out the same way hold on a second hold on a second when the supreme chancellor is voted no confidence and palpatine replaces him the senate still doesn't know the planet's been invaded yeah as as far as i'm aware i think all the information that they're operating on at that point is that there is a blockade yeah i don't think the senate know that the invasion took place until the end of the movie right yeah because they don't know what happened it's over yeah because we see palpatine on naboo with his guards and everything so next point yeah if you want to move on i get i get chat is so high-strung it's uh i'm so sorry chat i'm so sorry okay well okay so i guess next next point minor point after all these large points uh why do they have rooms that shoot toxic gas into them but they don't have cameras i can see if the people are dead or not i can hear you i'm sorry you cut out again i'm sorry can you even out yeah um well the gases will pick they can't see through the gas that seems to be their problem all right let's pretend let's pretend that they do have uh i mean okay but again it doesn't change the fact that they had the the breathers on who don't see them use the breathe this is i mean they couldn't have used them because that's to mention later it shows them holding their breath i don't think they could have just like what's to say that doesn't like disrupt their nerves they breathe it in then could knock them out instantly and just like cut their body or whatever no i think no no no my argument is why hold them go on sorry no no i'm not my argument isn't how they survived the room they could use the rebreather to hold their breath or whatever i'm not arguing that my argument is if they have the technology to shoot poison gas in a room you would also think they'd have the technology that has a fucking camera in the room so they could see if they're dead or not instead of just waiting for 20 seconds and then open the doors like complete morons i mean to add to that point i'm curious to you wouldn't you just leave them for like an hour just to be sure i don't know they're trying to why don't they just bypass the bypass the compressors yeah why don't they just bypass compress good point good point um i mean i suppose they cut their way out eventually but you know like the again the vice president used to dealing with Jedi knights he's dealing with the situation the way he'd deal with any like intruder he what he's doing he blows up the ship um and the Jedi out he doesn't know the Jedi can sense that the Jedi are already out there ready and then they see the gas and then they're prepping themselves and by the time the droids get there we don't know it's a bit of a time job we don't don't know if that's like minutes minutes whatever um he's like okay they must be dead anything else i want to shoot them i think all you've said is fair i just want to clarify with chat you guys got to chill out i'm seeing a lot of prequel beneficial arguments here calling it a nitpick it's like this would have killed the protagonists you cannot call this a nitpick okay like you need to chill out you know you know calm down just take it easy we're all having discussion every point that sitch and glib bring up are not automatically retarded okay just give him a shot just think him through give him a shot let's always say it again all of that hate all of that hate that you had for rags is avatar take just put that on me i will be the the sacrificial land here that's perfectly fine give me your hate because i'm i don't i don't dislike either rick or anomaly i don't dislike chat i'm sorry if we got heated there for a second i just want everybody to know this is a reasonable conversation let's continue but yeah my point one of my point is that um it's not that device because i've seen plinkett makes his argument that's bullshit um it's not the device where he's incompetent is that he is unprepared he doesn't know who's what he's dealing with yet um when you go when he gets uh down on when the he's talked to the droid on the surface of naboo by the way he actually says like verbatim is just caution these jedi are not to be underestimated because guess what he made that fucking mistake on the ship didn't he right like this yeah why do they know i think it's in i think it's in revenge of the sith you see that the ships have like cameras they even look like they have heat sensor cameras i think even in in phantom menace you see there's a there's one shot where you see like the back of droid it goes in a hallway so they have cameras somewhere in this fucking ship so i my question is why would they not put it in the murder room you think that'd be the first place you'd put the camera the middle yeah they all they're all made of room stitch they're all okay there you every room in the ship just you could put poisonous gas in it and they don't have any of the important conference rooms and there's no cameras allowed that's that would be the perfect place for cameras we mean they want to monitor the meeting room but someone could like i don't know there's just like what that i mean to say unexpectedly i'm like what like that there's like that is a conference room they weren't meant to be having like a meeting secret so to speak who's to say who else to trade federation me with well i can't why would they have poison yeah but you're saying you're saying well you know it's they don't have cameras in there because it's just a meeting room it's like well okay well they also have the capacity to fucking poison the rooms but i don't know it seems to me that was a semi serious argument i wasn't i'm not gonna i'm at healer i'm saying okay okay you can move on that's fine yeah okay let's move on to the greatest the greatest piece of writing in this story jar jar thinks and how does not exist i love jar i love missing jar that's kind of far ahead though okay it's been three hours to get past the cross hey look you guys get to do whatever you want to do it's there's no guarantee you get through all the prequels yeah i don't know what the choreography because it's kind of hard to discuss without seeing it so maybe you can skip that actually i'm gonna be right back sorry progress let's get it sure sure i think i think it's um mostly focused on writing instead of um technical instead of directing and editing yeah i just want to point out that that's an an entire other issue that has to do with why it's good or bad i'll just point out that in the first action scene when obi one jumps down from the ceiling it makes no sense because he's in a room behind a bulkhead and there's doesn't physically possible for him to jump down from anywhere but we're coming out of shaft in the wall no they're not the door opens and they're just standing there what what's he talking about in the in the first one the poison gas room doors open and the jedi are standing there and they start shooting at them and then it cuts to a reverse angle and you see obi one's feet drop in from the ceiling and you're like where the fuck is he jumping from there's some clear errors there especially because see what we got here i have i took screenshots i can put in the chat oh no i i believe you i'll try and pull it up so she check and see no just to just to give a visual indication of what i'm talking about that's anyway is there anything else uh sitch that uh yeah okay let me move on to something because i think that they're okay yeah yeah before we get to jar jar uh so why don't the jedi try to use force powers on the droid because like push them over throw them in the walls anything like that sort of just like drop in from the top of the scene that is odd yeah it's very weird choreography why don't jedi use gadgets more than lightsabers we're not even gadget why can't they just use force powers on the droid it goes what's what's the restrictions why doesn't i mean you can do whatever you want right well you have to assume that the force powers take power and concentration and they can only do it so much and so there's a cost-benefit analysis at a certain point it's not gonna be feasible for them to get out of the situation that way i mean you can't you everything we're talking about all these questions you're talking about are you're speculating on like well exactly how much does this you know how much power does this take how does this work how does that the technical details of all this stuff and you can't you can't i mean there's no way for the movie to stop and explain you know but one thing i will say with george lucas is that every time i've ever heard him get asked a question like that well why did this happen that way he always every single time has had a really detailed answer right on the tip of his tongue and it's just that you can't stop a movie to explain all that step when you're creating a whole world like this where everything is supposed to be unfamiliar and what he said a thousand times in interviews is that his philosophy about explaining exposition on how and why things work is that he always based it on how we felt as a student when he saw seven samurai for the first time and he saw carousel films and japanese films and he said the experience of going into you know at that point and he didn't know much about japanese culture and watching a movie that's all about like samurai ethos and the point was that he didn't understand any of the technical details of the culture or the how or the why but he was able to follow the emotional story of the people and that you don't need to understand exactly well you know how does samurai feel about this would a samurai use a sword in that situation or would a samurai use their hands you can't have those kinds of debates instantly because you can't ever tell a movie about an unfamiliar culture if you're expected to stop and explain every single thing you have to assume that the storyteller has a logic in their head and that you're given enough to follow you know and you just there there would be no movie if you stop and explain well how does this work how does that work you have to just get the pieces that you need and that's something that he said he's very consciously trying to do in these movies is create the experience of going to an alien culture which like for him being at a californian teenager being dropped into a japanese movie and not understanding the culture that was his way of approaching science fiction was the okay well we're from this galaxy and we're being dropped into that galaxy and you're not going to understand but you're going to understand enough and then i think what we just spent like three hours doing is trying to figure out well like you know uh who do they pay taxes to does it what portion of the taxes go to this to that and you just you just can't do that it's not a valid way to to tell a story if you want the story to actually be in an alien environment and that's why i'm going quick it's like an endless rabbit hole of just where why isn't there can't why is the camera on the left wall and not on the right wall you can't it's going it's just it's just not a you know you could see those those things but it's it's an endless thing and nitpicking well i don't know how their cameras work maybe their cameras can't see through that type of gas maybe the the gas is like a fog maybe the i don't i don't know do they have infrared cameras do they have night vision cameras you you have no white yeah if those things and you can't possibly do a movie where you stop and explain all those things is that true so it is well first of all it's very interesting that what you said about his interpretation of film because i didn't know that and it actually makes the movies make a lot more sense and i mean i think he's completely fucking wrong about about his theory behind this i mean it's usually why most people don't or have a problem viewing movies from other cultures and why they never do as well in other markets is because there's a lot of cultural things that people don't understand so for i completely just i mean that's interesting i think you're i think that is why he does it but i think it's the wrong tank but in terms of the thing though is a i'll let you finish just in a second but just the thing is that he does under he went to go see a curacao a movie when he was an american teenager and he didn't understand all the details but he understood the emotional story that's the point right and that's right and i'm saying that all the details create well when you're these movies as adults when you watch these movies and you start to try to pull it apart the point is that when if you're a six-year-old and you watch this movie you just assume well well there's got to be a reason that they're that the gas works like that and that it's you're overthinking it you have to go to it with it well i don't want to say overthinking because there is a logic behind it but the point is that you have to go with the expectation that you're not going to have everything explained to you i mean i don't know i just want to say every sequel argument i've ever heard about one it sounds like it sounds like this is you like this is a movie about space wizards for children because you said six and i think it's a moral well but what you're saying is because we came here to say if it was good writing not if it was good for kids at six the contention easily seems to be between the two groups the one side is arguing that the details you're asking for aren't needed for the story while you are arguing that they are that's that's the only contention right because one second what stitch is arguing is that those details that george did not necessarily see in the end in his first viewing of that movie are what made the bigger things that he saw relevant or good and but the framework is the one kurosawa is making that movie for a japanese audience he's not going to stop and explain those things but the framework is still there it does still exist and that's what i was saying with lucas you know things like um a parsec being a measure of distance not a measure of speed and everybody thinks that's a mistake you can hear lucas there's an interview he did way back like 20 years ago where somebody asked that to him and immediately on the tip of his tongue he had an explanation of yeah i know that a parsec is distance and he had a whole exponent you know every time i've ever heard him ask a question he's got a really detailed answer and so my point is like there's that there is not okay wait a minute i'm not arguing that george lucas doesn't have some weird answer for everything the argument is whether the movies are well written and if you're watching a movie and you keep asking yourself questions about why that why things are happening it doesn't matter if the director of the writer knows the answer if i the audience member doesn't know and the movie doesn't tell me that's all that matters right but he doesn't there's he's making choices about what he wants you to know well he's making bad choices because with quite again with the the four the reason i ask about the why can't they use the force on the joy to cuss is because obi-wan and quaggan jinn are like two seconds away or a minute away from being able to cut into the room with the with new gunray and the bad guy and end the entire conflict of the movie they're right there but they don't they run away because the joy to cuss are there so i think my i think asking well why can't they do this to stop the joy to cuss is a completely fair question because there's so much is going on right now they're right they're right at the throne room entrance with the bad guy yeah but they're there's endless droids that could keep coming at some point they realize they're not going to be able to force push away all the droids you know he's coming to the endless droids information was the two droidicas yeah and they literally show them force pushing a normal droid down and it just dies like just the just forward they're not throwing to the wall they just push it down it goes um there's another argument that can be made that is uh the joy to cuss have uh you know stronger and more frequent cannons and the jedi have to be you know like you said like you know that you want to more threatening droid you've got it they have to be have to have their reflexes like working at a higher frequency whatever um but droids don't get tired they're just shooting and shooting and shooting they came against the wall then they're just gonna be um they're gonna you know some's gonna have to give unless they get out of there or unless they kill the droids it's always they couldn't kill the droids not getting shot so they fled no but i'm asking why couldn't they use the force to to knock the droids away or knock them in the wall to do anything to answer that question the point is that in the scene what's what's shown in the scene is that the jedi made a cost-benefit analysis and they decided that they had to run away okay so you have to have to for whatever the extent of the jedi's power is they decided at that moment that their best option was to run away you you're asking like how and why and we don't have like a measurement of how much power they have or what they can and can't do right isn't that a problem with the writing i'm sorry to interrupt but is that no could you possibly explain no it's not because how could you possibly explain all of the jedi have like you know whatever 10 000 watts of power and a force push takes 5000 watts you can't you can't how how would you explain the whole that type of stuff in the movie it you just literally never seen of him trying to force push the droid and it doesn't work for some reason that's all you're literally looking at they're too heavy i can't concentrate yeah like this isn't really different by the way that's what i want i really i know people think i'm interrupting but it's because i i want to finish i want to get my point out okay the the issue that we're having here is that if if what you're saying about wattage and stuff is too detailed are you sure that what you're saying about a jedi's powers is in the movie the the the stipulation that you made about that it requires this amount of energy if that's not stipulated in the movie how can you claim it my point is that they realized that running away was their best option we don't know the details of why what you're asking for is for the movie at that point to give some sort of line where the jedi say to each other like oh we can't do this we don't have enough power the jedi already know that that line would be for the benefit of the audience and that's bad writing that's the character standing there explaining to each other oh this is the reason that the plot has to go this way right now so if you watch the movie how does it no characters explaining to each other things that they already know for the benefit of the audience is bad writing in that situation because characters saying things that they have no reason to say except to tell the audience something you don't think is forming the audience is an important part of good writing there should be a reason that the characters within the story have a reason to say that not not just because we're gonna stop and talk to the crowd i don't think that's that's different talking directly to the audience is different from two characters giving each other information you can have naturalistic versions but they're not giving each other information because they're not giving each other information because they already know for the reason for what they're doing the audience is the one that doesn't know okay here's one quigan hold off these jordicas while i'm opening the door but master there's too many of them we must leave right that's that's really shitty they're just they already know that make you feel better let me ask you this question do you think the jedi are idiots in this movie well are they supposed i want i don't know i don't know because whenever i assume whatever reason for what they're doing whenever i make these points i can't figure out if the jedi are intelligent or not because most people will will make the contention at some point in my arguments about the prequels that the jedi are designed to be incompetent so you tell me well but hold on you understand you understand that if your argument is we have to assume that the jedis are smart and competent and just go along with everything you're doing you can literally say that about any character in any movie that you criticize doing something that doesn't make sense you can say well we have to assume that they're smart and know what they're doing but why do you think that that doesn't make sense you're basing it doesn't make sense on just i'm not saying it doesn't make sense i'm saying it's lazy writing not to explain what the fuck going on with characters doing things that don't make sense to the audience didn't one of you guys make the argument show don't tell before yes all right so come isn't that showing that the jedi just can't go up against jordicas they've got force fields or shield generated which i would presume is a force field and i mean just this is a half us argument here but don't force fields interact well i don't know but that's a that's a good no i'm just saying like i'll just that's that's a you could why didn't george could literally establish that you have you see he tries to push it and he can't because for some reason the force doesn't go through the shields or whatever just you could show that you don't even have to say any dialogue just show if you need to i never i never used the force against i mean great uh guess chat can prove me wrong if i'm i missed the detail but you know jedi never used the force against the jordica shield it's not just in the next minutes at that point i think it's on that alone we can assume that's just by their actions you can infer a lot from characters action doesn't have a conductor so i would say that we would assume they could use it on the jordicas but we never see it so they're the facts right that's all we got and i i do want to point out that the force field stopping the force argument doesn't work because there is a no that was that wasn't a real log it i was it that was just me okay all right all right i got you yeah i was just like that was just sort of like dressing for it like you get obi one being like terrified of him almost he's like god's those things and then they're like ah run away but as an audience i would i would be like can you know if you guys not take him out in fact when i was rewatching them ahead for this debate i was immediately like obi one throw your lightsaber as they're rolling towards you you'll get him easy do it do the thing throw the lightsaber in fact walk up to him run up to him even because until they fully load they're harmless especially against the jedi oh lightsaber so i mean jarja takes one out before he's generated a shield right yeah you think well i can't the jedi they say it's uh quagon says it's a standoff and then they force speed away i mean like the the droid car at the same time won't roll right up to the jedi get killed he stopped they stopped this minimum oh yeah for sure but use jedi speed to get right up to him and then slash him well before they start shooting in their unfolding you would just force crush him or whatever that you could do that lightsaber slash them or a million things you could do because the bad guys right there and you need to kill him or capture him anyone who's played star wars battlefront was he was played as a droid oh yeah those things kicked ass in battlefront so okay because the question is like let's look at the let's go back to sequels everyone say it's sequels you ask yourself you say the hold on maneuvers so stupid because you ask yourself why why don't they always do that and i don't think it's fair to say well we have to assume without the movie telling us that there's some magical reason why it only work for a hold though at that one time and it never works again hang on i just i just uh well but there isn't a magical homework in the same situation and they do something different well no because i was about to ask how come we never see anyone ever use the droid cup personal shields for other droids or just on people but i because that would be like the most powerful thing in star wars that have a little personal shield that just blocks lasers automatically agreed agreed but um what was gonna say uh what more to rick's point uh sorry to cut you off there good um what was the thing you said about uh characters saying stuff that they already know just to explain to the audience is like bad writing if the audience doesn't have context for what you're okay you need to tell them something yeah look i i agree you don't want the characters to just go okay let me finish i've got a point here um everyone does say uh your master destroyers and they get ready to block the bolts then they seal this to see the shield generators and then everyone's like they have shield generators like that's a shock to him someone's like yep okay stand up thanks just ain't working let's go you could say that they weren't unprepared for the shield generator it is interesting that they that that obi one knows what they are as they're rolling towards them but he's and then he says they have shield generators that's interesting oh like that's a new feature yeah look they have a new feature and we don't know what it is so we better run away oh great i mean again we'll have to assume but maybe those little details and you know we don't know it's ambiguous i think um yeah because how many times are you playing a video game with friends and you say something that everyone knows to accent the point or something like that um it's it's i think it's not ambiguous there's not yeah i don't know what to say what he says is that it's a standoff so you're assuming that for whatever reason the droid they're not able to defeat the droids right he says it's a standoff with it so without going into the details of how the droids work or how the force powers work against it he says it's a standoff which is the information that's pertinent you know for you to have a problem there you have to assume that they have the ability to destroy the droids or to stop the droids and then just chose to run for no reason and that's not what you're told you're trying to understand the audience understands to some degree what the Jedi's powers are and we should think well why can't they use x yz powers on the droid it goes the movie doesn't tell us i mean it's really simple so i mean you i you could make the personal choice to say well i'm going to assume that the characters are all intelligent and the writing is all intelligent and therefore there must be some very complicated answer that just they couldn't fit in the movie but i'm not gonna assume that and i'm gonna say well it's probably just lazy writing and they don't really care they just need the characters to leave the scene all right all right let me ask you let me uh for that point all right so if we don't know what the force can and cannot do based on how they based on what is and is not explained as opposed to what characters are doing and what they aren't doing that doesn't uh to be Anakin why doesn't Obi-Wan just use force grip and just put him in the lava just for he can hold things with the force and move them Jedi power yeah because we see Darth Maul push Obi-Wan into the pit with the force so that's a milder version of what i'm trying to say though um you can't do that but as opposed to um like like actually picking someone up and just i mean duke did that actually sure like yeah so what was it i'm i lost what was the question that was asked or was it i'm just saying like like you're saying that it's left for the audience it's not it's bad writing because the audience is left to assume what the Jedi can and cannot do and that makes them look incompetent more or less that's that's your point right yes okay i'm saying that that applies to more than that can apply to the ot as well um i mean oh no i mean well it applies let's put it let's put a pin in that all right okay um yeah i won't i won't go there um terms of what the Jedi can and cannot do see some Jedi more powerful Jedi do more power things of the force right some was a Jedi master and Obi-Wan was around the same in as him at that sorry did i cut out no no you're good did i cut out am i still here sorry because i'm on my black screen um you see like we know duke is powerful we know we can like you know it's not did you did you say like nah it's bullshit when for example duke picked up a Jedi and you know tossed for me for example well i was wondering how again part of the problem is that the whole way force interacts during lightsaber fights never really explained so it's always a question of how come only sometimes duke can block someone with a lightsaber then use the force you know on someone else like how come they're not always doing that they should always be using the force and lightsaber simultaneously that's never explained or shown what's the deal with that force jump when applicable i'm pretty sure that darkmore used force push when he saw the opening to push kenobi off the edge he uh had kenobi like he uses lightsaber to sort of i remember this incorrectly but harry kenobi a little bit and he used the force push to put him off the edge it wasn't completely like off god but he had a like a small opening to you right but so but is that that's something he's to be established if like oh you can only use the force on other force users when you catch him off guard or you have to do something specific like specific to do it because as you talked about in the duke fire i think it's in revenge of the sith in the beginning of the movie he's fighting both obi-wan and anakin at the same time and he just like force pushes obi-wan away and like like why how come he can just do that how come he didn't do that before and then how come afterwards he didn't just use the force to grab anakin before he gets his hands chopped yeah and i think he just found an opening so he found the opening force uh force kicked anakin and gripped obi-wan and then passed him and then anakin ranches no but that's my question what is the what is the mechanics of the force opening which never explained to the audience how that works and i'll be a very long explanation if you have to justify every little thing or when you can okay well it always comes back when are you supposed to sit there and explain every okay well they need a 0.5 second opening and not a 0.3 second opening to all of the mechanics of how every little bit of telepathy and mental concentration works and the difference between each different type of jedi and each of their different power levels it's completely nonsense to expect the movie to explain all that in its own way have you never seen jojo or uh my hero academia or dragon ball z or well or hunter x hunter x hunter all these all these are battle mangas three movies how about an 80s action montage yeah all these are battle mangas that are explicitly about fighting and the whole thing is here are the rules of the fighting so that you understand the tension in the fight and i'm saying you know i don't understand the tensions in the fight if i'm constantly saying well how come obi-wan doesn't use the force here and how come do who's in now use the force here i'm not saying they have to go into like an hour long explanation of it but you just got to give me something to work with so i understand the rules of the fight okay here's my argument that sir all right first off comparing the three movies to uh again an anime series and an anime manga is completely unfair i'm not saying they have to go in and more more applicable in terms of in terms of length in terms of how much time they have for exposition but also in terms of genre and the type of movie and the type of storytelling it's not lucas isn't telling this like a manga it's a completely different it's not about the fighting it's not about the can we talk about can we explain why the rules of the fight that's all i'm saying you need to understand the rules of the fight and say my second point is how the jedi fight and when they choose two and two not use force powers i think is um the the the the choreography and the subtleties in like openings and stuff is what um forms the audience when it's okay for a jedi to use the force power i think it's relied on the audience's observation of the itself rather than give it lots of bad choreography in the movie so i don't know if that's intentional or or unintentional okay well okay so perfect example the details spins around the cutoff anakin's hand he stands there for a full second and doesn't just kill dooku now is he using a force power the stun anakin or is this just bad choreography he's talking about uh yeah he's talking about when he gets his arm cut off correct yes okay um let's say one more time what's your argument no i'm saying in terms of the problem with saying well there's subtlety in the choreography is i'm saying i don't know what's bad choreography or simply because they're you know he's you know there's old people fighting and they're not going to have like the most you know the best motion range of motion here so in my example is that in attack of the clones when anakin's fighting count dooku they engage their kind of walk sabers for a second and then count dooku does a full 360 spin and the entire time his back is faced anakin anakin just stands there then count dooku comes around and goes to slash him instead of anakin force pushing or trying to block or trying to attack count dooku he literally just throws his arms out making an easy target for count dooku to cut his arm off so i don't know if this is just bad choreography or if this is a force ability should we i i tell you far away from episode one at this point uh yes we have no i because i didn't even get a chance to make my oh no i'm saying we should i'm just saying we have yeah i agree we should okay fun but um as far as giving people enough information about fighting and stuff you have the ability to teach uh padawans in this story that's what a lot of this story is about so wouldn't you just place little breadcrumbs that would give us power crawl information and understand what the limits of people's powers are showing us and demonstrating to us what the physical actions are explanations of how the force works training with a droid or whatever you know like as we've seen in that little scene where they're just hitting the all the kids are in the with lightsabers and they're hitting stuff all of those opportunities you could give information that would then give us stakes in future fights to let us know what level of lightsaber power this guy's using why we do this this way teaching about the jedi and information as it flows through the story is good writing all right um well i mean it's kind of separate from what's going on in terms of the story like a lot of the training is in mind you see glimpses of it um that's um look i have two points to make all right but firstly like the the intricacies to how jedi fight mechanics work something i think you'd find in a novel more than what's up and i'm not using novels that exist for the uh we're not talking about the novels here i'm talking about the films obviously saying those kinds of details that you're looking for is something you would find in the some things that i personally wasn't too clear about like for let me give you an example um like why for example uh i don't know if you noticed that um in revenge of the sears as opposed to the tag of the cones uh three p.o has one with uh padme and r2 is now with anakin you know that's the kind of swap choice just give me a yes or no answer that was a question okay okay okay just i'm just trying to outline to you like what um the details that you'd find in books as opposed to the movie if they're not directly applicable to the plot what's going on like the the intricacies of jedi fighting when it's a caddy's force or whatever a midfight and i imagine the fights in the novels they should would be vibrated detail like describing uh specific moves and just train of thought which you can't obviously but train film this is like a voice over while they're not speaking um like just just in human me on this one point i'm not trying to take it off balance but it's a little detail of ppo going with padme from revenge of the sith from attack of the coins for revenge of the sith and r2 going from padme and anakin in revenge uh from attack of the you notice that they swapped droids across your mind yes or no just give me yeah i i not only i not only noticed that but i was also wondering why they stole 3 p o from the larges and that never gets brought up okay that that's that's the separate thing i mean that that i actually have to do it have an issue with like yeah he is in a sense he is anakin's droid he did build him and the reason why they have but the reason why they have swapped detail as to why they have swapped places not that it's directly applicable to the plot whatsoever the reason why they have detail why they have swapped droids is because they were a wedding gift from anakin to padme actually wedding gifts from each other which one of my followers actually pointed out to me on my discord as a book detail that's something you would find in the books it's not explicitly mentioned um particularly to the audience like oh do you like my wedding gift darling yes thank you honey it was it was lovely i'm so glad you gave it to me you know that's it's not it's not directly applicable to what's going on why wouldn't that be why wouldn't there be a nice little detail to prove that they love each other and care about it's a nice little detail but i'm not mad that it wasn't in the movies but i find it interesting that it's it's cool awesome it's cool in the book but it's not good in the movie but the movie is the primary means of presenting the star wars story so of course mine also you're trying to my point point sorry guys like well i'm saying that has a much smaller implication than the fights you know why the droid they swapped is a very minor implication according to all the Jedi fights in the movie but the point he's making is the point that i think he's making that's good is that this is an endless thing that it's basically what we've been doing this whole time is that you can always say well why wasn't this in the movie or why wasn't that in the movie and you could just ask that question about anything and it's a it's a stylistic choice but it's also a choice about what's necessary and you know when you watch him when you watch him press strikes back and Darth Vader is using the force to throw things at Luke and Luke doesn't use the force to throw things at Vader you know do you need a training sequence to sit there and explain like oh you have to be a level eight force user before you can throw things with a lightsaber or you know you don't you don't know how to understand that okay Vader has power the Luke doesn't have how complicated is that to understand Vader has a power there Luke doesn't that's a terrible example to establish that Luke is completely new to force powers we've barely seen him use the force whatsoever and Vader is a master that's what the scene that's all set up that way so when Vader is using force powers to throw shit at Luke and he's completely overwhelmed it makes perfect sense of what's been established in the story at this point right it's established that some people have powers that other people don't so when you're asking why does this person do that or why doesn't that person do this because different Jedi have different powers in different situations that's it you can't have a complete chart of okay it's it's just it's an endless thing no but except it's the opposite because as I said the entire establishment of Luke and Empire Strikes Back is that he has very limited force powers I think all we see him do in that movie is he grabs the lightsaber when he's upside down and and oh yeah and then he's training with Yoda and you see he's having lots of problems you specifically see him having all these problems luring the force so it's the exact opposite it's completely set up why Luke is doing poorly against Darth Vader he does use force jump to escape this all the carbonite all right so anyway back to the second one for the second making progress let's uh let's go to the let's let's find a broad point a bigger one you know a nice big new one is Jar Jar Beaks good writing summarized if you yeah yeah go yes and I'll go to that um but just to summarize my point is like these little intricacies you're looking for these extra just extra layer of depth for things that aren't directly applicable to the plot is like I wouldn't expect that the film to stop and explain that to me if it's directly applicable to the plot yes absolutely sure absolutely the film needs to do that you know to to get a rundown of when and when it's cool to use a force character in combat that's that's that's gonna take a lot of time to explain and none of it was ever directly applicable to the prequel so point being that these details are looking for is something you would find in a book if it's the people with a plot you can prove that to me great we'll discuss it but if it's going to be about no it's about character development it's about context it's about giving rules to the universe it's about world building and all those things develop the plot and in a movie I just want to say and I just want to say and we can move on from this point when I watched the prequels again and I came up with all my lists of points I'm literally just looking at it through the same critical lens that I looked through the star wars sequels and made my videos about the star wars sequels and in that context if anyone in the star wars if any star wars sequel defender says well you're just nitpicking well they don't have time to establish this all these arguments would suddenly not be applicable to star wars sequels so I don't understand why they're magically fine with the star wars prequels just because it's like them because they're it's executed completely differently in the sequels but we I think we're not supposed to get into talking about the sequels right but if that blossoms into something larger about the technicals of it that's not another point for the prequels either that's the problem when we have to stick to writing because it makes it so that we can focus on actual points and logic that's in the story not excuses on why it's not important to the audience or whatever this is about what constitutes good writing that's what I came for I want to hear some more explanations as to how it's good writing and I think that's such as bringing up a really good point because he's saying if you can if we can't levy these criticisms at the prequels then we can't levy them at the sequels either then maybe why does it matter what the holder maneuver does what's because it's not it's not a comparable situation I understand I understand that you're saying it's not a good situation but I want to know why I want to know I want to know why that doesn't why I want to know why they're watching the Jedi fight themselves while fighting in their element the original point that this all sparked from was me simply asking how come they can't use force on the droid because when they're about to destroy or capture new gunray that's very important to the plot okay and that's why I said it's very important to establish what the rules is of this universe and what the rules of the forces we never get that establishment and it's the same thing with the hold on maneuver because then you say well wait a minute why didn't they always do the hold on maneuver what are the rules like starship fighting in star wars these are important things do you want to get into the hold on maneuver no I'm not saying it's good I'm not saying it it's about it's about consistency and let's move on I heavily disagree but let's move on okay yeah what the greater disagreement if you want to talk about jarger I don't know I don't I don't have much to talk about jarger so if Cliff wants to rag on how awful jarger is well I mean if we're okay you love yeah this is but this is why I feel like I'm not really having a real rational conversation about these movies I just think that I'm talking to two fanboys right now it's really frustrating tell me how I feel like I'm talking to two haters all right I know it's weird because I love so so let me let me understand why it's good to have a beauty character like jarger in a story about trade disputes and with very serious details about padawans and masters dying and all that in this saga why do we want these two tones to be clashing with each other every other scene how is that good writing do you want an answer for that yeah I want an answer because I feel like you're asking these questions and then I gave you an answer and then you're saying well you know he's not saying that I'm right so that means he's not answering my question then we go in a circle and rephrase the question all right maybe I don't want an answer I'll just just continue you don't want to answer you want to tell you that I'm great fine fine if you if you're going to take it as a bad faith argument then just continue okay oh I mean I'm asking a question was that you wanted an answer yeah I mean we ask like you know what's the what's the stakes in episode one and then we answer it and then we go back around to the question again I mean if you want to answer to this question I'll give you my answer but you're just going to you know I'm just going to debate you no you're just gonna like now you're making a shot is an argument you're trying to move the goal give you an answer and you just don't accept it I agree with I'll give you I'll give you an answer and so how so jar jar so we're just going to say that jarger is good writing based on which argument again the answer to question he asked about the conflicting tones why is the character like charge are good in a movie like that's right that's the question yeah it's it's very deliberate style let's take choice that Lucas has talked about a lot before episode one ever came out Lucas said that a lot of fans are going to hate episode one because he said it's for kids he said it's like a binging movie is what he compared it to the logic for doing that is everything in episode one works on two levels that's why it's called the phantom minutes because on the surface you have it's a fun movie it's an adventure movie the bad guys are kind of silly it's a little silly and goofy it's a the tone is for kids 12 year olds maybe younger and then the idea was to to show that what's happening with Palpatine is happening underneath the surface so you know when you say that the bad guys in episode one are in effective I mean the actual titular bad guy of the movie the phantom minutes Palpatine gets everything that he wants he's completely effective everything that he wants to have happen happens the but it's operating on two levels the the concept of the entire movie is to have it be a kid's movie a silly movie on the surface and to have you miss what's happening underneath you know it goes down to every detail of the movie like in the end celebration on Naboo the celebration music is actually Palpatine's theme from the emperor's theme from empire strikes back I mean from return of the Jedi in a major key instead of a minor key which is kind of what they're doing with the entire movie is he's showing you something dark but you don't see it and that's what George Lucas is saying about how democracy is lost to dictatorship it happens it doesn't happen because some other army comes in and a dictator takes over your democracy it's something that happens right underneath your nose and in the movie these these characters think that they they think that they won and you think that this is a kid's movie and actually what happens in the movie is that they lose the republic the bad guys win in the movie that's what happens in phantom menace is the bad guys win everything but you don't realize that it happens right in front of your eyes and you don't see it and that's the philosophical point of the whole thing that's the tonal point he's making the point with the tonal juxtaposition of these silly things that don't mean what you think that they mean he does it again and again hundreds of times with shots where he'll show you a particular shot that seems like an innocent shot but it actually mirrors a much darker shot in another part of the movie or one of the other movies and he's doing it over and over and over again telling you subtextually that you there's one thing on the surface that you're supposed to be watching what's underneath and it goes by the characters that's at the end Palpatine is you know Padme is standing there celebrating victory on the end and what Padme actually did was she just gave the republic to the evil emperor that's what she actually did when she's having a victory celebration and so it's good if I may just to prove that rick isn't full of shit here um what he's saying is like yeah it's supposed to be like the Padme you're supposed to look at that uh that excuse me the scene is kind of like you know everyone wins and like Padme won she's got a city back but in actuality it's win for the emperor Lucas actually did for that scene just an example this is all over the movies but um and this isn't my way I like rick knows way more about this than I do um if you actually listen I don't know how many of you guys know this but the theme that's playing in the celebration of the phantom innocence is actually the emperor's theme just uh remixed I knew that's a very good so so hold on a second it's good because it subverts your expectations every scene you know the point was that the question was subversion it's not subversion to mislead that's subverting your expectations you you're you're making sequel arguments no i'm not talking about subverting expectations when i'm expecting when i'm expecting there to be one tone of a movie and then you introduce another tone of a movie that's not subverting my expectations when it's supposed to be a lighthearted adventure but it's darker so then what is it if what i'm saying is semantically incorrect as far as subversion what would you call that what would you call it it's not subversion it is a lighthearted movie the point is that there's something else that you don't see happening underneath the lighthearted the juxtaposition of the plot with the tone is a deliberate style that's the message of the entire movie okay so let me see if I can let me let me see if I can rephrase this so I can see if I understand your point you're saying that the reason of the tone seems off in phantom menace because you have jar jar being comedic and then you have dark shit going on in other places is because the point the thematic point of the movie is is that what you said that we're all being distracted by kind of like funny normal things thinking life is okay but underneath it all there's like the dictators using power right that's what your your argument is I don't think it's totally that broad I think that he's not saying that every time something nice is happening there's no no I'm not yeah I'm not saying every time I'm just saying that's what your point is for the that's the you're saying that's the reason why you have jar jar and these comedic stuff is because his point is that that comedic stuff confuses you away from noticing the dark stuff or hides the dark that's the point my point is that you're asking why that tone was appropriate and that's my point is that to tell the story of how Palpatine takes over the republic he chose to tell it in the tone of a very light children's movie tone and that's that's you know that's my it's his explanation okay well that's okay that's a completely different point that's not what you said the first time I'm just that's a completely different point so which I'm like because you made this whole thing about how there's like this theme of like we don't notice you know the dictator coming in the power and now you're saying well it's just because it was a kid's movie no I'm saying the point is that it's what we think is benign on the surface is actually when a dictator takes over that you won't see it happening you won't you won't see it at face value you'll think that something else is happening and he's making that point with the tone of the movie okay okay okay so if that's the point of the movie tonally then Jar Jar fails at that utterly and completely because he doesn't distract the viewer into thinking all as well he makes everyone pissed off and annoys the shit out of everyone he's not I could I could buy wait a minute I could buy what you're saying what you're saying is a very interesting idea and I could buy that if you had a character like Jar Jar who is distracting us from the evil plan of Palpatine and everyone's getting sucked into saying oh I really love these this Jar Jar character I really love all these great funny characters and it was distracting me from realizing Palpatine's evil but that doesn't happen well but you're talking about your own reaction to the character not what the character that was the majority of people's reaction even at the time was everyone lots of people like my character I mean I I have a I could stop on that that's fine I guess I mean I know there's people who don't like him but I have a whole sequence in my video of all the kids that say that they love Jar Jar I mean so you're talking about your it only applies to children and not to adults I'm saying that that's why you use the children's yeah because you asked your original question was why is it appropriate to use a silly children's tone for a movie that's about more serious things in between no the question doesn't seem like conflict yes and I think glib was talking about on a on a far narrower level level not even the theme of the movie overall but just you have the scenes where it just cuts from something dark to just immediately Jar Jar's making a joke and it undercuts the emotion the emotional way of the scene yeah but even you know even in a Benji movie there'll be a scene where the dog gets hurt you can have dark scenes you can have the children's film with some sad moments yes you can but what we're saying is that wasn't well executed in Star Wars because you have a character that is almost entirely comedic relief that's always making mistakes and that's in the context of a scene that's supposed to be taken seriously like like earlier we were discussing how scenes and stuff you know exposition is an issue if it's unrelated to the plot or what like that what's the point of having Jar Jar step in Banta Pudu that's to please the kids right and that's totally away with right and that's totally inconsistent with the idea that we're leading up to this big race that's gonna that's the all the plot hinges on Anakin winning we should be building that up but instead we're being distracted like what Rick is saying that's supposed to be the theme of the movie is that we're distracted by kids jokes and I'm trying to figure out why that's good writing for Star Wars where was that in the original trilogy 3p on answer right start but they have plot relevant details that have to do with them and their their jokes are commentary on what's happening it's that we understand that C3PO he's a coward and he's doing these things and he's there along with them because he has a purpose in that crew why is Jar Jar not plot relevant Jar Jar has like a million plot functions the only reason why Jar Jar is there is because he has a life debt and then Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go along with him other than that there's no reason for him to be there after they leave Nebu and I know they need a navigate a navigate to get through the planet's core and which is okay so they which is impossible she doesn't function by the way that's and he doesn't do anything to do that he he comes from when they come back they couldn't have any end battle without Jar Jar yeah you know right Jar Jar does plot things that's why he couldn't get rid of him it's too relevant but in terms of the the piloting thing I always I thought that was I don't want to bring it up but you brought up I thought it's very weird that first of all Qui-Gon's ready to totally ditch Jar Jar and leave him in prison which I don't know to me seems very un-Jed I like and only takes Jar Jar with him because Jar Jar claims he can navigate through the core but then when they're actually in the ship Jar Jar doesn't navigate through the core Qui-Gon knocks him out and then Obi-Wan's like how are we gonna get there and Qui-Gon's like I just do not have so fully how to get there do we know that Qui-Gon knocked him out I'm pretty sure he just told him to calm down uh no he did like a Jedi nerve I mean a Vulcan nerve pinch on yeah the the confirmation myself at first but he doesn't use a a force version of the Vulcan nerve pinch and Jar Jar is loopy for a little bit kind of he's kind of out of it I would say the confirmation is Obi-Wan saying something like you doesn't he say something like you you may have done that too hard yeah everyone says he may have overdone it yeah that I understand that excuse me I understand that the Gungans are relevant in the plot later because they need to create a diversion I understand that that they need to be roped into the plot later but that at the point in the movie from Qui-Gon's perspective and Obi-Wan's perspective they never go into why he decides to be the tag along and all these missions that have to do with securing the princess he's an unknown factor he's he's like an external character the only reason why he goes along is because of the life debt and somehow that's good enough for Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon yet at the same time they can't free Anakin's mother from slavery well yes I guess specifically to your point you would you could say well like why the fuck would they take Jar Jar into tattooing with them why would they just leave him on the show why would they do that what's the justification oh I mean because he might be useful later I think the answer that's pretty simple the Jar Jar was the life debt first of all Qui-Gon could have taken any Gungan he chose to take Jar Jar because Jar Jar did help him out all right and he didn't he didn't he just kidnapped a Gungan why would he need to take anybody at all he used the mind if you can mind trick a fucking cool from the boss now I'm pretty sure he could have mind tricking Gungan to help him out I mean but but hold on a second it could technically dry that yeah you know Qui-Gon's character he just kind of breaks it are we gonna gloss over the fact that you can go through the planet's core to get to Naboo that that's not I think Taylor took that way too literally I think it's just as simple as going through you know the under the undercavins of Naboo to uh a shortcut to feed well that's um Plinkett outlined is that like oh you're not cutting right through the planet because there's lava there I'm like yeah no shit like it's well then they shouldn't have said everything is meant to be taken so literally yeah but then why say that like that's what I'm going to ask how do we know that there's love how you're getting into technical speculation again I don't know why I just say go through the water well what I mean is what I mean by I guess magmar and and it's just a general but you understand what we're talking about good writing the thing is you don't want your audience to constantly question what the fuck's going on so George Rukas writes the line go through the planet core and he doesn't think wait a minute if I write go through the planet core my audience is going to immediately think how the fuck can you go through the planet core it's like it's like molten metal and lava that's an example of bad writing why is it molten metal you're assuming okay what what I'm assuming since it's an earth planet it looks like a same way they do everywhere else and I will to to get I don't think we should get hung up too much on this but to each side's credit while I don't think the planet core is literal I do think that planets have a core of molten metal yeah I was gonna agree on that if you picture a big sphere and the line from one side of the planet to the other is drawn in such a way that it's just like to the right or left of the core as depicted on a sphere you might say to someone else yeah you're going that route it's essentially through the planet core you know like you wouldn't I don't I don't necessarily see much of an issue with them describing it that way especially with boss now seems to be trying to intimidate them when he says it um like the idea that it doesn't necessarily legitimately literally mean they go directly through the planet's core I think you could probably let that go well in addition to that I have a question about what the plan was before they met up with Jar Jar how are they going to get to Naboo in the first place where they need to go to all the way through the the floating cloak planet core where are they going to go Jar Jar save their ass so it wasn't the plan to get to terrible plan is what you're saying well you're asking sorry so once just to clarify so once they were landing from having hidden from the droids you're asking what was their plan to get to Naboo yeah we I guess we wouldn't we wouldn't know we wouldn't they were never outlined so we could assume that they were just going to try and sneak their way to Naboo somehow that's really all we've got to wait with but I wouldn't know that that's a flaw compared to it's out of desperation that's where they are it's not like they plan to be there you know I didn't quite go and try to take over the ship why didn't they try to send a message on the ship there's a million different things you could have done as opposed to just well I'm going to drop out on this planet who the fuck knows where and try to run my way to the capital doesn't seem like a great plan and even if it was the plan why is the plan to go to the gun gun city by this random dude that they saved better is it the force that's telling him that why did the Jedi go to the gun gun city yeah my question it's it's similar to Palpatine it seems like a lot of characters in Star Wars don't have a plan unless everything happens coincidentally the exact way it's supposed to happen in the story by things outside of their control and that's why it seems very contrived and like that writing I can explain the majority of this stuff but I want to point out something quite important to a lot of the Santa Menace at least in terms of how they arrive at Wato's doorstep and find Anakin um the whole premise of Anakin is that he's the prophesied chosen one correct from the same page there like you know finding him very I'm like what was the chance that was bumped straight into Jar Jar what was the chances they would have bar and on Tatooine of all places what was the chances that they would have and uh walked up what walks up to Wato's shop places um and ran to Anakin right and what is the what was the odd bad writing that's bad writing man let me finish okay go on what was the odds that Jar Jar who should never have been found in the first place would have been um uh picked a fight with Sabola which caused Anakin to go to meet up with him again sure he would have already done because he liked Padme but anyway um Qui-Gon goes to the council finding him was the will of the force and no doubt of that so you know I don't usually like to play this card but it's in that it's like it's a grill to like the premise of the Santa Menace and like finding of the chosen one don't think it's too outlandish to say some of the circumstances they find themselves in is sort of governed by the force it's something that the the the prequels and the rest of the sick Star Wars move I mean except Anakin's prophesied turn of course is that to find him it doesn't rely on coincidence as a crutch like for example the Force Awakens stars where everyone just happens to be like neighbors and shit um it's a bit different it's been more cleverly crafted is what I would say it's it's because sorry let me finish let me finish um and by the way just like the the whole everything happened like the will of the force thing that's not the crutch of my argument that's the dressing okay I'm just saying that's uh Qui-Gon even says that as like the whole reason he uh he really wanted to take any lives was like you know nothing he even says nothing happens by accident okay but then again that's that's Jedi philosophy again the finding of the chosen one was uh it's fate was yeah I I don't just I assume it it was fate like having having your having sense dressing okay but well then I just I understand that you're I don't see what that has to do with planning how to get from one place to another we'll understand that you're kind of trying to you kind of kind of have it both ways I understand that you're saying that that's not your main point but you understand that that's not good writing to just say well we have some magical intangible invisible force that's just dictating all the actions of the characters and this is just the reason why everything happens the way it does that's that's is literally an example of bad writing but that's not well yeah on its own it's bad writing on its own but that's not actually that's underlying for like the majority of the movie um that's again I can largely explain a number of different things that's I mean you know bombing into Jar Jar was pretty random I've done that down to just a little before us um Jar Jar saving their lives may I may ask a question just for just for I guess asking how do how do we differentiate between something being a coincidence and something being the will of the force well there there's an answer to that I mean the thing is that in in the six the six real Star Wars movies the six George Lucas Star Wars movies there there's an intelligence to the force the force is doing things deliberately it's not just the stuff happens because it happens and then everything everything that happens is the will of the force there's specific events like Anakin meeting Qui-Gon that the force is specifically making happen it's I don't know if you've read the interviews where Lucas has talked about it a little bit recently but when he talks about the wills and the um midi-chlorians you know the idea was um the world well so you know we're we're not saying well this is but we're not saying that it's a plot hole that the will of the force exists we're just saying it's bad writing I mean I understand that it exists in the story it's just bad writing if you know if you ignore rags had a specific question rags had a specific question answer the question yeah oh right it's it's not for the point of the discussion of the conversation because we are getting okay the idea that the force is it is an agent not actually a force but but but an agent that has desires and the will and it's supposed to be and in George Lucas's cosmology the force has an intelligence they're supposed to be creatures behind it that are interfering at certain points and there's you know rationale behind this which you can complain that it's not explained enough in the movies which is why I kind of stopped myself because I was getting into stuff that's not actually in the movies but the the point is the difference between that and just a coincidence or just uh just saying everything is the will of the force is that there's actually there is a thought behind it there's a reason that the force did this and there's a reason that the force did that and there's a reason that the force doesn't do other things there you know this argument can be used to justify in rise of the Skywalker there's that awful fucking scene where where where Poe is flying and the the bad guys turn off the radar that they're supposed to blow up and Poe says they switched the radar to that ship up there and then the lady's like how do you know that he says a feeling and I go wow that's terrible awful lazy contrived writing even though I understand plot wise it's the force telling him that doesn't excuse the writing but there is the exact opposite because there's a reason for the force doing things in the Lucas movies there's no reason that the there's there you don't think you don't think I could make the argument that the force and rise of Skywalker wants to destroy Palpatine because he's evil and unbalancing the force or whatever so the forces that's no the forces the force deals in cosmic events it's doing big things like making Qui-Gon meat Anakin it's not specifically giving people destroying not a big thing I do feel like those are both fairly specific things mechanically that occur and but don't rags don't you agree that this is the same point I'm I'm trying this is this is what I'm trying to I guess have people because this is why I'm asking how do we differentiate between something that's just a total coincidence in a in the Star Wars universe with something that is a direct result of for example Han showing up to Rey moments after they escaped the planet moments after they find the Falcon could we say that all of that was the will of the force or not no absolutely not what's stupid is what is Rey is how does it work die out of the force what are you talking about can I finish please I think more to rag this point like how do we differentiate is how much evidence you have to sort of prove the point and how much the characters reference it like quite if you watch the Phantom Menace through Qui-Gon references the will of the force and coincidence not being like the meaning not happening by chance quite a lot I think it's safe to say like you know some of it because every movie most movies have you know operate with some level of convenience um it's like you know Rise of Skywalker that really bad ones like Rise of Skywalker lie on committees it's their whole crutch and they don't bother to explain Phantom Menace actually puts in some legwork to sort of justify the convenience I think that's where you can sort of I say something may I ask what is the so I think all of this discussion began on the idea that Qui-Gon bumping into Jar Jar was the will of the force is that correct what you are saying or I mean no uh well I mean yes but like by uh sort of like by proxy to how he meets Anakin because he wouldn't have met Anakin or Anakin wouldn't have like stunned to them were not for Jar Jar coming along so how can I differentiate if I'm allowed to play a little bit of a devil's advocate here could the defense of Rey bumping into Han in all the things that that results to with ultimately her defeating Palpatine and that not also be the will of the force through the same rules the same rules yes but I don't think it's feasible because I don't bother to justify it well yeah I think it's very I think it's I just just trying to get this discussion sort of moved and try to get into the mechanics of it a little bit better and well again I was I was I was never meant to use this argument as a crutch rags it was just meant to sort of be like an underlying sort of extra like a layer I guess just pressing us into exploring it and how we find some kind of a guideline or a system because I do think it is legitimate to ask how to again how do we differentiate between really bad writing conveniences or just reasonable conveniences in the universe and saying that any event happens because it is the will of the force like how do we categorize all of those things insist well and it's important to clarify that just because there's a plot reason for something like the will of the force doesn't mean it's not a terrible writing conveniences these are not exclusive ideas again I think it comes down to how much connected tissue there is to sort of prove it as feasible again I think the has enough I'm saying I'm saying the feasibility of it has nothing to do with it it's still lazy writing no the difference is a few if the premise is that there's an invisible fate thing that exists through all the prequel movies that's forcing all the characters to kind of come to some conclusion and that explains every possible question you have that's literally lazy writing because you're saying well I don't want to have to think intelligently how these characters go along this path it's just fate I never mentioned it in reference to the entire prequel trilogy I mentioned it in reference to the Phantom Menace and I said yeah like Anakin ultimately Anakin's like just in with a broad stroke here the path he takes is like the will of the force the prophecy right we can all agree on that much at least um but that's speaking about how just in terms of finding him was also out of that as well because otherwise how else will they have found it what are the limits then what are the limits of this argument that you're making the difference is from a writing standpoint that there's a whole story that the force that Anakin is made by the midichlorians he's a chosen one the force wants him to be found there's a whole story to that and so that's the premise as you start with the story of a chosen one and what what is his story which is the opposite of oh okay well we have Harrison Ford under contract so he needs to show up in the movie now well we don't have any reason for him to show up right now so we'll just say the force why are you assuming the best intentions for the prequels and the worst intentions for the sequel that's not a valid argument those are the actual intentions that went into them there's an actual in reading George Lucas and uh JJ Abrams now no you're not listening to what i'm saying there's a story behind Anakin and the chosen one there's no story behind why Han Solo happens to be sitting there yeah but that's a false equivalency we're talking about Rey being the force dyad that's an equivalent to the chosen one and in fact they're trying to retcon her to be the chosen one so what then and i'm not saying that's in the movie but the force dyad thing is in the movie because that's again working backwards and they pull that straight out of their arse Anakin has been the premise of Anakin's character has been chosen one from day one force dyad let's explore let's explore the prophecy because it doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever i don't think we're gonna get anywhere on okay i think we both made a point all right so i don't want to hear and in the phantom minutes they say the prophecy is that he will bring balance to the force okay and then that's later that's later expounded upon in revenge of sith where he says he will destroy the sith and bring balance to the force so my first question is how does destroying the sith bring balance to the force that would literally be the opposite of bringing balance to the force right that's that's that's the point is that no no i'm asking okay the word balance means that there's equal forces on both sides that's literally what the word balance means that's the point is that when you notice says that the the prophecy could have been misread the jedi assume when the jedi here bring balance to the force the jedi assume oh that means we're gonna get rid of the bad guys what the prophecy actually means anakin brings balance to the force by helping to kill all the jedi at the end of at the end of revenge of the sith there's balance on the force because there's two sith and well you know basically there's a couple sith left and a couple jedi left so anakin actually did it but he did it by killing the jedi the jedi just never thought that that could be what it would the jedi never thought the prophecy could mean that there's too many of us and a lot of us need to go okay so your argument is that all the jedi for the three movies were all just completely wrong with their interpretation of the prophecy regarding anakin that that their interpretation that destroyed the sith was not balanced to the force it was just literally what you said that that he's gonna kill all the jedi and there's only gonna be two jedi and two sith that's what your that's your argument yeah the jedi the jedi think the balance means that they have all the power which is the balance so then why does george lucas literally say the exact opposite he says anakin does fulfill the prophecy because he kills palpatine and himself does destroying the sith okay so what's your problem then so because you're arguing both sides at the point you're saying well wait a minute he brought balance because the jedi were wrong he wasn't supposed to kill the sith he was supposed to kill the jedi to bring balance but then george lucas literally says no he kills all the sith thus bringing balance even though at the end i know he doesn't bring balance because lucas is alive there's no sith just back i did i never made the argument that um destroying the jedi and that was rick's argument actually i know but i'm talking to rick i thought okay okay okay well before maybe maybe we need to get to the foundational issue of this point which is what does bringing balance to the force mean what does the force look like can we even be definitive about that or can we only infer well we can only work on what characters tell us right well i mean the the prophecy anakin does oh like himself and the sith and there's no more sith left and left and it's only luc so i think we can it's definitive that bring balance means vanquish the place potential well you well you and rick can argue because you're both saying the opposite things i don't know we don't agree on everything me and rick okay but so what's the position here i think that it's reasonable to have a lot of different interpretations on what balance of the force means a lot of people in chan have been saying that the light side is the balance yeah like the presence of the dark side or the sith are the imbalance to expunge them would be to bring balance that's never talked about so always talked about light and dark side is being a dichotomy never talked about like light is the natural state of being and then dark is a corruption of that yeah i don't think that that's the intention at the end of return of the jedi vader does kill himself and kill the emperor and there's but there's not only luke left you can assume that there's still dark side people in the universe there's still you know they're not trained so yeah why not there's still no no no the no the an assumption is made not because of why not but because of supporting reasons to assume things oh what was the assumption yeah we assume things because there is reason to we don't assume things because why not because jedi and sith are a religion they're not a state of being just because there's no jedi being trained they're still going to be force sensitive people being born which brings into question a lot and that's a that's a pandora's box right there that's a big pandora's box it's right i'm confused what can we just bring it back to say what was the assumption that was made that was uh you felt wasn't just the something's dying there's a guy cutting the lawn right outside no no the assumption was that uh rick said that there could be other sith roaming around at the end of return of the jedi that we don't see that was the original no not so or dark side users or whatever they're still they're still force users at the end of return of the jedi they're just not trained by the jedi or the sith those two orders have been reduced down to basically just look we just don't see them and they're never mentioned or talked about jedi and sith are are religions you you don't have to be a jedi to be somebody that's force sensitive those people are still going to exist if the jedi order is gone i mean the prequels proves that i mean the glory religion is a good analogy for that but i think it is reasonable to say that there are force sensitive people out there i do think that's always kind of been the implication that there are they are out there i'm wondering if at the end of episode six where is the implication that the balance means that when darth vader and you know like when city has died does that mean somewhere in the galaxy there's a new sith rising to take his place no i'm sure it's i mean i i'm i'm not positive i mean george lucas has even said the prophecy was fulfilled when um he killed the emperor it doesn't change anything that was the prophecy and if the prophecy means being balanced on the force then we can like further the right word i'm sorry i'm not good with words um that's did in fact bring balance and balance did in fact mean vanquishing of the sith and just and and we can assume that there are because of the prequels we can absolutely assume there's more force senses out there just it just depends on whether they don't take a train or not luke being the last jedi he is the one who has to train them and then i don't know how that turned out well if your argument is that lucas was incorrect and using the word balance i agree with you if what all depends on what balance he's he means by balance so well that's part of the problem we don't know we do it because the sith gets vanquished how is that so balance is the existence of only light side the light side yeah how does that make any sense is is that what balance is i mean i don't i don't know if someone wants to be like that's how the jedi city have like a healthy balanced diet and eating shrapnel would be the imbalance because it'll kill you i don't know like the idea that you can't possibly look at the word balance to mean something like that i'd be like i don't know i don't know it's all very okay when you okay when you talk about when you talk about food so let's just eat a balanced diet they're saying okay well you can eat your ice cream and shit but you you know don't gorge yourself on it has to be balanced that's to be part of your appropriately balanced diet okay balance literally means you have equal things on both sides so if you're having a story that centers around two warring factions like the light side and the dark side and you say bring balance that implies that at the end of it they're going to be in the same position not one's going to dominate the other and they are in the same position the the light side and the dark side still exist if the sithral murdered they don't they don't go anywhere the imbalance was that the jedi order had a monopoly on force usage that everybody was going to be trained in this one religion this one way of using the force that was the imbalance at the end there's lucas still lucas still live lucas still trained as a jedi but there's not one jedi religion that is dominating how the whole galaxy uses the force there's still light side and dark side there's still people that are born for sensitive but there's not that's one jedi religion that is dictating how that works for the whole galaxy and the sith rise as a reaction to the jedi having dominance having control over everything out of curiosity right and this is not this is not an argument i just want to know what your answer is okay so if george lucas was in this chat right now at this call and he said imbalance means the presence of the sith and the expunging the means balance in the force what would your response be oh are you asking me oh well you you all sit you'll both the i mean if george lucas says that then that's what george lucas says i'm not going to tell me he's wrong about star wars i mean i i i'm i wouldn't actually say that that's a bad thing to do like if an author if george lucas said there are no lightsabers and star wars i'd be like you're wrong i don't care that you made the films you're wrong they are there um so i'm curious like would you disagree with him would you tell him that he should have used a better word for example no i wouldn't disagree with him if it's something that is obviously factually wrong then okay but if it's if it's if it's a what i'm saying right now is based on what i know in my opinion and what i've heard him say this is my best understanding of it but if he said that i i got something wrong then i'm not going to tell him what i'm not going to tell him what he thinks it's his own intentions that i'm speculating about well we can't this is why the execution is so important so at this very base level of what balance of the force means there's not such an incredibly um deep discussion and debate um about you know what does it mean what is the force's will is the force because the force is an agent apparently from these movies that wants things and works towards a goal the force wanted you know all this stuff to come to pass how does that function how does it work what's a coincidence but isn't what's being guided what isn't being guided so it's so it's an example of bad writing because we don't know when it's not clear in the movie and i can i point something out about the different interpretations i'd like to point something out about that is that in the journal of the wills the original george lucas scripts that he was trying to write those were what the sequels were supposed to explain that we actually will get to see the people that have power over the force just never got executed in the sequels that was part of the original plan so but it is unfortunately technically still bad that we didn't get a full explanation because there's a there's a cognitive dissonance between the idea of humans and beings balancing the force and the force willing them to do things how does that cycle work what's the and how is that still frustrated i'm frustrated by the fact that anything that uh sit or i could say that could be an inconsistency could be construed as the will of the force when i don't think it's been very defined as to what it is that qualifies that except for a vague notion that um uh it's well we can textualized but but that applied right here and ask we can ask anomaly and rick right now is can anything be explained can you're sorry can everything be explained by the will of the force or is the will of the force are there things that it it is not an answer for basically i know yeah that's what i'm trying to say here yeah that's what i'm just trying to make clear i'll give you let me give you anything like i can feel like again like i used probably should have waited to bring that up because that was never meant to be the meat of my argument i just wanted to bring attention sort of lend credibility to some of the convenience in the fancy menace because it is elaborated on is like not happening by chance again i think what governs what is justified as convenience is um how much how much attention is brought to the fact that it's a you know i mean like if Han Solo instead of just Han Solo just showing up they say like i think he does say he saw the falcons transponder or whatever but like um you know i don't think that's enough whereas in one mentions it multiple times that this is the uh no this doesn't happen by this this wasn't an accident finding him was the will of the force um no he also then shed some light on the midichlorians whispering uh what the force you know the will of the force so to speak which you know uh inform us as to why he takes the actions that he takes which he makes a lot of uh decisions which are fun to interpret um it's one of the reasons why quaggling's probably my favorite character in the the prequels to be honest um but that's a whole nother discussion again i just meant i just meant the will of the force as dressing i was more than happy to sort of break it down meeting Jar Jar gone from Jar Jar to the Gungan city then to Thied then to Tatooine bumping into water um i was never meant to use that as a crutch it was just merely because it just seemed real so we go ahead i was just saying are we conceding on the uh prophecy is vague and confusing and never explained point and just moving on from that or well i was going to say that glib is right that there is in Lucas's plan for nine movies there was supposed to be a lot in the third six uh in the third trilogy there was going to go a lot more into the wills and how how and why the mechanics of how the will of the force works so that is kind of something that we don't get as much of an explanation as might have been intended but my point about why that that's different there and Han and Ray with the millennium falcon is that there is a logic to this there's like a great deal of thought to it and it's not about everything it's only about specific incidents specific things that are meant to be done by the wills through the force and it's it's for Lucas it was never just uh oh that's i wrote myself into a corner so it's the force there's a whole cosmology to it in either way if regardless of intentions of the creators these are events that occur in the universe either way so Ray's importance and how the force would see ray it is reasonable to say that if the force wants her to quote unquote truly fulfill the prophecy and i know it and you know it and everyone in this room knows that sequels are fucking horseshit but unfortunately that is what happens in the star wars universe so how do we what i'm saying is with ray's importance especially how the force would see here in terms of that importance can we use the same arguments for her in terms of convenience and power levels and all that by saying it's the will of the force that it is that way to fulfill its goal it's all in in universe regardless of external intentions and things of that nature i think within the universe you can look at particular things and see oh you know okay i can i can understand i can see the architecture and i can understand that there's a reason why the force would want quite gone to me anakin and there's a reason that there's like a logical cause and effect and you see how this fits together with what we actually know before you before you continue i'll let i'll let you finish but just before you continue isn't there also a reason for the force to want ray to meet Han Solo no there i i don't think so i what there is is that they they have ray meet Han Solo and then afterwards JJ Abrams pulls something out of his ass you know i mean there's footage of something from wherever you pull it it is in the movie it exists as a scene ray has to meet Han Solo because his death is what propels her to be invested in the conflict for the rest of the movies it's never a lab right i don't think ray's ever really invested in the conflict oh no here's what do you mean he goes off to go get luke what do you mean she's totally like the the thing here is that we agree that the sequels we agree that ray's shit and the sequels are shit and their garbage are terrible and they wish they never occurred where that is that is not in contention i don't think it bothers you rags that you have to keep making that point i it's i just want to be clear that you know i know despite how much we hate it it does occur in the film it is a thing that happens if anything that's why we hate it so much because it does happen yes exact thank you exactly um yeah but there's no reason for it in those films makes any sense i'm sorry can you say that again i didn't hear you i said there's no reason for it in those films that makes any sense though i mean there's not a cause in effect there's an event and then an explanation you know what i mean i i would caution i would caution you on the grounds of being like as long as you can justify that the ultimate payoff of the sequels is led to by any convenience the convenience is okay because it would therefore be a part of the will of the force i feel like we could it doesn't take long to justify a lot of the crazy conveniences of all three of those movies yeah it's very easy it's actually really easy to say it is extremely logical for the force to want ray to meet Hong solo so that you know events down the road lead to the force getting what its will is which is her defeating Palpatine i'm i agree that it's dumb but it does occur right can you guys see me i put it yes i can hear you now you dropped out for a moment but you're back now but yeah i just um the reason i i say it's justified um and i don't i don't use it as a crutch like i can absolutely go into like explaining all the the same by same shit um the reason i gave a credit in a fancy message because there it actually is the convenience and the privacy and the uh um yeah the will of the force is it has brought being brought attention to like disney didn't do the legwork to i mean if people want to justify ray's conveniences place is force awakens as conveniences as just the will of the force of okay where's your proof where's a reference um and i can't think of a real scene they keep saying i have a wait wait so let me i just i'm curious i want to let me give it a shot so that's not i'm sorry like this is literally a neutral statement i just want to see how you'd react to it so the force wanted the falcon on um jaku and he he sorry and it wanted um it wanted harm to find ray when he did because it will lead them to getting bb8 two layer which will lead to them finding luke which will lead to luke you know playing his role in the trilogy which all of it eventually leads to the to the defeat of palpatine and the saving of the galaxy like can we not draw these sorts of lines uh well my understanding with how luke says that it's supposed to work with the the wills and the midi chlorines it's not that the the the wills are the they're the creatures that live on a different plane of existence from us and they communicate to us through the midi chlorines right the they're they're not like you know is that moving spaces i because i we have to leave that out we have to leave out the wills you know our stuff because it's not represented um more sorry more to your point i'm interrupted like more more to your point like what do you mean if it was so so if i said if so let's say someone says it's so fucking convenient that han shows up when he does with ray and i go well i mean of course it is it's the will of the force because if he didn't then she'd never be able to connect with him and bb8 and get bb8 to layer to get layer to send someone to get to luke etc etc answer would be bullshit because there's no reference to the will of the force whatsoever in the movie so property anyway in the movie oh yeah episode one these are these are sequels to each other if you establish the force is an agent that has a will in episode one then the same force is an agent that has a will in episode seven because um the the will like the yeah you can say it but like the way it's referenced in the phantom menace is surrounding anakin like as the chosen one like the prophesy you know prophesied to find the chosen one um whereas ray is it's really just well surely surely you'd agree that ray is more important than anakin because she actually defeats palpatine yeah i mean i don't when i want to make these arguments like you guys know i'm not i don't count the sequels as the wall because they want to like well like the whole reason we despise them is because they're counted right like we wouldn't care if they were fanfictions yeah we hate them as much as you but they know what they are they are fanfictions sorry like i just that's that was my uh i have a strict policy with um there are some gray i should probably should have explained this i have some gray there are some gray areas to this their logic is not black and white but um basically anything that isn't done by the original creator actually fiction um objectively fanfiction because you can't replicate an intellect you can only imitate it um now again you guys can interpret that however you want you can probably find some holes i'm saying it's bulletproof um like it's just it's just the way it is but subjectively you can make whatever canon you want like i count rogue one as canon even though objectively i consider it a fan fiction is that kind of makes sense can i can i agree with you on that and just say that like head canon and stuff and like choosing what you want out of it is really great and i agree i actually am with you that the only first six movies are head canon but the reason why we're pulling these arguments up is because they exist in the current canon and they exist as story elements that may have in them the same ideas as the prequels when it comes to the will of the force what the force died at is destiny the chosen one all of those things play into it we can't say that it doesn't it factually exists that like that but if you're trying to analyze the writing in prequels then it's irrelevant with some other people there's nothing to do with the intentions behind what's in the prequels well no but so i'm not being that useful with the sequels and not the prequels there because the the prequels made it without the but without the sequels exist it was the sequels that we're just trying to use the same criteria of critiquing something so if the only difference is well it's okay for the prequels because george lucas wrote it and it's not okay if the sequels because it was written by someone who's not george lucas like it seems like that's so far the only difference we've gotten the sequels could have used it but they didn't even bother to do the legwork for it like george did in the ma did it why do they need to do the legwork it's already been established in the prequels how does that the force um if i could just exist but he made sure to do the legwork surrounding a character what do you mean by character what do you mean when you say legwork to establish it what are you referencing what are you referring to when you say um i don't need anything specific i just want to understand what you mean when you say that basically just how quiagon references um interprets his finding of anakin um and he again he even says to the council like finding him was the will of the force i have no doubt of that like uh and he says to um says to shmi is like shmi asking is like is he to become a jedi and he's like yes he's like our meeting was not coincidence happens by accident um so and then and then it's the jedi that uh yeah go well bouncing off the point you just said we have quiagons interpretation of the force we have the council's interpretation to the force how can we be sure who has the correct interpretation in who's right when they say something is the will of the force you can't there's supposed to be an ambiguity to it i think i think the events that play out sort of like i so i think there is an i don't really know how to answer that if i'm honest like well i think you could also say that based on the way things play out with the takeover of the empire the destruction of the jedi one would say oh clearly the will of the force was not followed because it led to this you know catastrophe that we're in or the force wants them to be destroyed or the force wants them to be destroyed maybe that is the will of the force maybe the force is it i mean painting i'm happy to say that like painting with a very very very very broad stroke the events that happen uh is the will of the force and like part of the prophecy which was established episode one and i think it's episode six um because i find the force's will being ambiguous i'm okay with that being ambiguous if characters consistently have reasons for believe it like if you have a fictional universe where you have like multiple sects of a religion who are both interpreting like a scripture in different ways but they're both consistent on their interpretations like i'm fine with that um i think it's very interesting i think it's just for us what balance means and and again all this kind of started from believe it or not jargir in the woods was again the core of how do we distinguish between an actual coincidence and the will of the force guiding things into occurring and you did say that not everything can be explained as the will of the force so absolutely absolutely okay i was never i never meant to as a crutch like yeah i was just clarifying i did have a follow-up though um in relation to you saying that uh you wouldn't allow that um excuse for the sequels because it wouldn't be canon i would be curious in because i'm assuming you've done a lot of work in relation to tearing down uh rise of skywalk or all the sequel trilogy and you know in like in both to how it contradicts itself its own trilogy but also how it would contradict the prequels in the ot right you probably point out a lot for example how it tears anakin's achievement away from him so in that particular analysis would you then have to conceive that the will of the force would be canon and that would explain how rehan met okay okay i should probably i should probably say okay let me further clarify um even though i don't like the like the sequels exist um george lee said nothing to do with them and they're trying to what makes them like even though they are fan fictions they still still exist in the star wars universe they still have to play by certain rules to be good um i'm not i'm not saying the will of the force can't exist in the prequels i'm just saying they did did a if it did exist they did a piss poor fucking job uh elaborating on it whatsoever that's why i don't buy it um whereas the phantom ennis and like revenge the sith um through and that's why i can again with a very broad stroke um i can buy the will of the force in the prequels and the ot kind of how can i say that they they did a good job explaining if you two can't even agree on what the prophecy meant talking no i'm i that's the prophecy in the will of the force is two different two different things i see well no because you're saying that the will no it's not because you're saying the will of the force is dictating that that quagon needs to meet anakin for some reason which is the prophecy which is the prophecy and you say okay well what's the prophecy well we don't know i conclude right i could later i conclude that it all leads to that destiny that's the fate of it that's what the story is about it's it's all depending with a very broad stroke yes well it's a really it's a really it's a really broad stroke to say that the will of the force is the reason why everything's happened isn't it they didn't say that like they didn't say that everything is because of the will of the force which is why i asked the question for clarification and then that's my problem is that i don't know because yeah i'm worried that these two are gonna like sort of use that as a crotch to say like i the only my only excuse for everything is that everything happens by chance and no that's that's what my point of clarification was that cleared that up and hopefully it shouldn't okay good yeah right which is why i'm going to bring with you uses an excuse i'm not gonna i used it as again i used it as dressing to sort of further credibility to the coincidences um in the phantom menace at least as it pertains to anakin or the finding of anakin everything happens after that i don't i don't really have any to say the guidance was except for like again the big story beats of like it's not connective tissue it's kind of makes sense no i understand i'm just and my point was that it it doesn't really matter because even if there's an explanation in universe for an invisible and tangible force you know creating coincidences or contrivances that's still bad writing even if it's explained and the narrative i mean you can narrow it on that move on that line i guess and the narrow i'm having to grade it just a grade but i think i've again i think that's the menace at least to sort of bring at some level to mention it i think the topic of destiny fate and prophecy in media is its own discussion like by itself is worthy of its own separate thing so we can definitely move on from it a bit um but i just wanted to know i wanted to know the narrow specific instance of what kwaigon's plan that was my initial point of that brought up this diatribe as far as i'm concerned i wanted to know in the context of when kwaigon was getting down to the planet and he was going to nabu and he decided to go with jar jar was that the will of the force and how would we know that that as a specific instance bothers me because it seems like i know went along with it he decided well i mean you could say the world of forces at work but i don't use that as a crutch for him justifying that you know that's why kwaigon went with jar jar kwaigon and obu one were fucked kwaigon was being pursued by the droids and obu one was pursued they made a shit ton of noise like when they'd warm up and they're surrounded and they could hear them off in the distance closing in and they say jar jar okay uh take us to your city because they're gonna kill us otherwise so they were so they were winging it we mean so when he went down to the planet he had no plan basically i don't think he planned to get caught if that's what you're asking well kwaigon didn't get caught obu one was getting chased but kwaigon was being ignored right the tank even runs over kwaigon and doesn't even notice him there their plan was just to stow away on the ship to get off of off of the federation control and meet down on the surface yeah they're gonna they didn't know where on the surface they were gonna end up they were gonna meet up and then so they were winning it because they were winning it like i said yeah what are they trying to take over the ship that they're in they could try to hide in the ship till it reaches the capital all i was trying to prove it to the republic from the ship how do you know the ship's going to the capital how do you know that they can call the republic from the ship well i don't we don't know anything because the movie doesn't tell us anything about what happens on the ship great as as a good as the planet observation if their plan was to have the ships take them to feed specifically and they didn't i don't think they would be worse off than they ended up being with what we have in the movie well we're we're told no you're right because it doesn't matter because they take over the city but we're told Obi-Wan's plan in the hangar bay is we have to go down and warn the naboo okay that means we have to warn them before the army shows up so how is going down with the army and then planning to run to the capital wherever the army shows up a good plan to warn the naboo before the army shows up they were just off to the ship they didn't have a another way to get off of the ship what else were they supposed to do away and then who knows i could have hijacked the ship all down there they could have hijacked a tank or they're done whatever unfortunately Obi-Wan gets caught and they and they get closed in on by the droids and jar jar off to take them to the gunman city i think it's a fair fair point it could literally just be a dialogue thing like he should have said help the naboo rather than warn them because there's no way you're warning them about an invasion that you're in you know yeah because you have to get there first and to have any meaningful impact you need to get there not only first but you know you even could like an hour because like they're here other than they're here it's like well that wolding was useful and my point was not my point was not about whether or not they had a good plan my point was whether or not it was the will of the force or they were just winging it and i just wanted to differentiate in that context to give a contextual argument to what you're saying about i think he said it wasn't the will of the force okay so then when there's an inconvenience next time that we bring up how are we such an eye gonna know that it's not the will of the force because because if they think it's the will of the force they'll say that's the will of the force great okay let's we can operate purely mechanically excellent let's move on i said will of the force i meant like in the sort of like grand scheme like the like all the events sort of leading up to uh anakin's meeting like if you like let's not get back on to the top i feel like i'm i'm i don't think it was boss again again it was never meant to be a it was never meant to be a crime shield that good it's all good we want to go next so yes don't want anyone on the internet like representing my yeah it's okay keep going uh so i guess movie to remind her for everybody movie timeline we are only at the part where kwaigon and jar jar meet i know very very slow going so this this three movie debate has now reached the first quarter try to get the tattooing at least let's try to speed up a little bit okay uh okay here's a here's a fun little part so when the i'll skip ahead a bunch of points that we won't talk about why the joys didn't land directly in a bit or i mean in the capital whatever but so you have the queen the the jedi and the queen security forces are arguing about what to do the security forces say you know you should stay on the planet and the jet are like you should leave the planet right that's what okay so we agree that that's the that's what's going on so the problem with this is that on second viewing we know that the queen isn't actually the queen that's the decoy and pad made the real queen is standing right next to the queen so what happens is in the scene when the jedi and the security council are turning to the fake queen and saying what do we do padmate the queen says either options will be dangerous and then pad made the real queen says we are brave your highness this is the scene that you need to go back on second viewing and say oh pad may secretly telling the decoy what the fuck to do but she doesn't and it turns out to be the decoy who decides to go to the senate and we don't actually know what pad may wanted to do may yeah all right uh keep going okay uh single ship manages to run the entire blockade well did they want to address that or anomaly and if you want to address that i don't know i mean i don't understand but the problem if the decoy is empowered to make certain decisions i assume i don't so in the in the super life or death situation the decoy is going to be empowered to make a decision and the queen isn't going to tell her what to do i guess well i when she says that they're brave that could be a hint that she when the quick when the decoy says either options will be dangerous hint hint and she's looking at pad may and pad may's responses we will we are brave your highness that's not giving the decoy any indication which plan you want to go with i think that implies the plan would be to stay and not run away the decoy fucked up completely however um i know i'm trying to be impartial but i i would think that if the decoy said something that the proper queen the real queen didn't agree with she would have spoken up or said something it's possibly i think it's reasonable that when the queen made that call pad may was in agreement with it and was therefore silent yeah if the decoy messes up and the decoy is doing something that pad may thinks is a bad idea i'm sure pad may would let her know in some some way pad may wouldn't go oh i think this is a horrible plan and we're all gonna die but i can't say anything so i'm just gonna do it oh i'd argue is uh they were um she was being urged to leave and then she says both both choices are dangerous and then right after she's asked to uh i think what what she was um the decoy well what pad may said was um to reinforce what they were telling her says we are brave your highness which is after what they said which was senator palpatine will need your help um and my feelings told me they will destroy you and uh yeah i don't know like that's that's the way i would choose to argue so my only point is that if we're talking about whether it's good right or not this should be for a well written movie this should be the perfect scene that upon second viewing you go oh pad may is hinting at the queen which direction which plan she wants to go with what if we don't know the like what that means to them though like what if that isn't agreed upon the thing why does that that doesn't matter to the audience and does it well no but like whatever we see play out would be the result of whatever they have as codes right yeah whatever can you talk about whether something's well written we can't say well they have a maybe have a secret code the audience doesn't know about because that's well no what i'm saying is whatever the queen then decides to do that's what pad may would have been sending to her as a message through that comment that's what we would conclude right and that's lazy writing i just the message was that both alternatives were pretty much equal why is the queen so the queen's delegating her her duty to the decoy i mean i don't know just trying to serve her identity um to mention like i've heard another argument like um and she does speak up when she really needs that's proven at the end with um dungans yeah she does when she talks to the dungans at the end yeah yeah yeah so she's not i think she did so she did do something she did disagree with i think it's feasible to say she would have been up that's i've said before yeah i don't think that's unreasonable i think you're gonna bring i think you're gonna bring this up too sorry just i if i can maybe go a little bit ahead um i'm not saying again i'm not saying it's perfect it's it's a valid argument to bring up i'm just regarding i'm just saying it's feasible to say that she i'll just be short and sweet just to reinforce rag's point you got that but um you're gonna say that um on the ship uh the decoy tells um adme to clean the droid just to go and clear the droid not like pay attention to like what's actually happening in the conference room you can actually pay attention uh padme actually looks at her like are you serious like when she gets asked to clean the droid then um uh and when she is told to do that she doesn't leave the room at all until they're done talking like until it cuts the neck she doesn't like leave the room with the droid she's there the whole time so she can like uh be necessary can i can i add in then i actually i'm not sure that that's like a very strong point i see how it could be misconstrued but saying that well we'll be the blanket point i just want you might bring it up no no no i'm saying i think i'm actually agreeing with the side the opposite team right on this point because i think that hey she's saying she's saying we will be brave sounds like oh yeah that's code word like instead of like we will be something else and it's pretty that seems kind of obvious to me i think that that's a fun subtlety i think i understand that my my contention is it's not codeword it's not codeword that the audience can figure out means one thing or the other upon second viewing which is what it would be well written i agree that yeah yes i i think the point would be it's odd that of all the the people she has with her she would tell pad made it be the one to leave the room at her side and clean the droid quite gone should have about or not but i was oh okay i think i mean i think you would provide like further you know we further cover for her to you know sort of be doing the handiwork as opposed to sort of someone she sort of keeps around maybe she could listen in on something as opposed to being with the queen in case someone tries to talk behind the queen's back and you can interpret it in many different ways but um like i i dumb it down to just her and her bodyguard have a very like small connection and i could have just been the bodyguard a little joke on her because again if you do watch the scene she does look at the queen with like this like are you fucking kidding me sort of look like really you want me to clean the drawer i find it pretty funny you're agreeing with like an argument no because she doesn't leave the room it's argument is that like you know why would you send the queen to clean the droid when she should be listening to important information like isn't the room at all until they're done talking right i have his argument is like oh is it like a game they play is it some kind of weird joke they play on each other like i mean i i think it's a fair inference that she's told to do very you know not fun jobs to maintain the cover because nobody would believe necessarily that she would be the one if she's cleaning droids why does she need what happened in that scene that said oh no maybe they're on to the fact that i'm not with the queen better send this other person off to does there have to be a kind of just one of that's just upkeep of the of the ploy while they're while they're engaging a secret mission and it's probably important for the queen to be on the bridge because there could be updates happening at any moment well there's no information we know that she missed so we can assume that if there was to be information she needed to know then the queen could be like oh well one moment i need my handmaiden or that would make it more suspicious fine fine fine let's rewrite it again so she just hears out let's say quigon says let's kill everyone that exists and she's like oof i need to check with padme yeah i'll think on that quite gone i'll think on that and then she just talks to her yeah plenty of ways around this it's not impossible it could be better but overall the the characterization of amidala as the sort of hidden fortress queen that's going to be personally involved in headstrong is pretty consistent i think that it's a point against the dialogue not being revised several times that made that sort of ambiguous instead of being clear which is a lot of the problems with the prequels i i think that there are arguments for both sides here to the point where it seems moon i think yeah i have a point i wanted to know why palpatine never inquired about if the jedi were dead and it was relied on um it was the the new gunray that said we have nothing to report let's not report it until we have something to report i think that that's a little silly of city us to not clarify if the jedi are actually dead uh do we have any commentary from yeah me and rags just like that um really i mean could just be that palpatine just assumed they were dead like that seems to kill them immediately i mean he said just kill them immediately um it would be easy for them i know i'm willing i'm willing to sort of give i'm willing to concede a little bit there like you probably should have inquired it just seems like a simple mistake in writing that could have been taken out it doesn't have to be a plot point error just it just i think it would have really um when does anyone know exactly when palpatine asks that i think would have made a difference either way but um i think it was just orge showing the the trade federation being full of him so to speak because like if if uh is it um do you know anyone in the chat will put off me like when exactly do they ask that it's the order of events is kind of i'm 24 hours no sleep at the moment so i'm hasty but aren't aren't they aware that the jedi are alive when they break the queen out and they escape the palace or whether they're missing that doesn't make palpatine yeah but i'm saying if city is new what difference would that make if they're already looking for them if they sent doc mulch chances are if the order of events played out the way they did um doc mulch would have been too late anyway cross on the blue so i just i have i had the movie open uh it's the scene it's after obi-wan and quigan are in the underwater craft for jar jar is when they okay when they nothing to report at 27 minutes 15 seconds uh well mine it's 18 minutes so 27 minutes maybe i'm tattooing by then 27 minutes that escaped the block 18 oh right yeah i got you evasion's on schedule i have the senate bogged down procedures yeah um all right yeah i guess there's no follow-up from him it just seems like something a smart person would do yeah all right all right uh you know construed as palpatine getting a little ahead of himself but yeah the oh i'll concede he should have asked i don't think it would have made any difference there he would just say you know prioritize and then immediately it just seems like it'd be a smart thing to do that's all anyway um okay it might tie in with the whole why didn't the jedi testify at the senate how because of how but he thought they were dead then he wouldn't have expected them to testify but luckily they don't oh no he knows they're alive later that's why he sends darth mull i think in the senior time about 27 minutes i think yeah he sends darth mull because he says only like he's to track them right yeah yeah only that's right gunray and company they say oh they jumped to hyperspace and that we can't you know they're lost essentially and he says not to a sif and then he introduces darth mull so i guess it's the line where he says something like i want you to kill the jedi and bring the queen back to sign the treaty i think that's later in the either way um not too important to focus on i suppose but i'm happy to move to concede a move on yeah i have i have another question which is uh how did they send a fake message to pad me if they didn't know where she was uh the fake message um you mean uh like the people are dying is that what you this other one yeah you must contact me that the one that panaka suggests is uh fake yeah it's a beat what they left was in was uh the uh excuse me um shit the the queen's cruiser right they left through the palace hangar it's like a pretty goddamn expensive ship so i'd imagine that's just the queen's shit would have known um sort of like they don't need to know where the person is they have a way of contacting that ship if i call yourself if you look at that's let me counter that by saying that if you can if you can if you know that you're getting a phone signal then there's technology to try and delete them all cell phones can be tracked in fact all their data can be downloaded as well now i know that that's not star wars but uh there has to the reason why they don't respond is because it would give away where they are yeah how do how do they get how can they send the signal without knowing where they are now you can say it's a broad you can say it's a broad spectrum signal and then you they just tap into that but then wouldn't other ships pick that up and reroute that directly to coruscant and in addition let me let me make a third point on the same point with that recording can't amidala use that as evidence in the senate what is that evidence politician on the planet saying that these people are here and they're killing us what yeah what i would say is there is a chance that the senate would dismiss it for whatever reason but that doesn't mean she shouldn't try right yeah yeah she's already a politician telling them that this is what happens they her word isn't enough they want to actually send an investigation so then the only thing that would ruin that would prove her case is the thing she says we won't do people going to investigate would prove it right why doesn't she say yes oh wait so it would take it would take it would take can we end are we can we finish the uh how does the ship get it should i have an idea actually uh you should bring it up actually um i was thinking maybe is it two messages or is it the same message it's one message i believe saying if it's a saved message could i can't be a save it locally they say because the message is we need you to come back to naboo because people are we need you to respond to people are dying now after you've escaped i said no reply i'm like did you reply the message or did she receive a new transmission and then is it just like a one way so i don't know a message i seriously it's the same message also just for clarification do you guys know if she receives any of these is it after dothmore is mentioned as being able to know where their ship is or before it's uh so theoretically if he's tracked their ship then he would necessarily be able to get the message to them right so he's already so darthmore's you're saying darthmore's already tracked the ship sent them this message for some reason why because he's already tracked the ship no i'm suggesting that if the contention is they must know where the ship is if they were able to send the message it's like well we do know that they do know the ship is as soon as dothmore gets the tattooing right so if the message comes after that then that doesn't break anything oh no no the message well okay we'll all reveal the answer because immediately after obi won and clagon say don't respond to the message that will give away a position the very next scene is darthmore and palpatine saying we know where their ship is now even though they never respond to the message so the internal logic of the movie doesn't make sense or obi won and clagon are just there is a scene where malin city of sarin coruscant yeah yeah instantly mal says tattooing is sparsely populated someone in chat said she answered i don't remember there being any does anyone remember if this is a scene of chances no there's a scene where i watch chagrin i've had me watching the message after the rest of them talking about it there's a scene of her watching it alone it's not clear if she actually replies or does anything with it but i always took it to be that her you know replaying the message or whatever she does with it somehow sent a signal of where the message was received when you send out the message you don't have to know where they are when you call somebody on their cell phone you just need the number you don't need to know where they have the phone but if they receive it in some way you can triangulate that if they have a conversation with you after they receive your call then you can figure out where your call is being received so that's that's why i always thought there was that extra little scene of her watching the message by herself but the message the same way for watching is after darth mo already knows where they are so i thought they've already left tattooing sure and then that i mean that plays into her rash action to sort of go back and try to take feed as opposed to wait for diplomacy so they're on tattooing she thinks that um do all the our here our gaggle of heroes is on tattooing they get the message from i think his name is bibble or something like that that you know death tolls massive that's that they get the quote unquote trap message and obi one tells the queen send no reply it's a trap and then he leaves the room immediately and then it cuts to obi one and quigan gin talking on the cell phones essentially and then we have a scene where it did it immediately cuts to curissant where darth mall says yeah they're on tattooing that's just a progression of scenes it's not feasible then to say to know that um they tracked the ship the signal was coming from the planet but um and here's another thing uh the trade federation say it's uh it's past the blockade it's out of their range they can't pursue it um and then he's like okay you keep the blockade and i'll send my sister printer software and like if they knew where the ship was on tattooing i think it's they're tracking the signal and like uh well immediately if anyone knows it's tattooing and he says it's hard to hear you don't mall says it's sparsely populated he'll find them quickly but he doesn't when he arrives he doesn't know exactly where the ship is like he has to actively like search them out yeah not exactly did i know what enough to know it's on tattooing immediately from scene like there's no there's not a scene for instance where the closest thing we have to discussion about the message is Obi-Wan essentially asking Qui-Gon you know but what if the message is real what if people are dying and Qui-Gon says either way we don't have much time cut to curse on mall is saying tattooing he opens up with a word tattooing hold on i think it makes sense that tattooing could be the logical conclusion because you know the Jedi and the Sith are like thinking you know like uh you have this Sith guy that's hunting down the Jedi that's what he's designed to do to fight them he would assume that it's on tattooing that's not my problem what my problem is is that how did the message find it to them and then that message isn't utilized for something or or once they get to tattooing and then they start communicating again then obviously you could trace them you know when when the logic of the movie specifically when the characters in the movie literally say they can track us if we respond they don't respond and then they're immediately still tracked they say they contract them he says he said don't respond then they'll track us right mall mall says uh tattooing is sparsely populated if the track if the trace is correct i'll find them quickly so it's an error on one hand where it like the trace doesn't really make sense because they're the message doesn't really make sense about how i mean again they know the ships but but they understand that by process of elimination i if i was looking at a map obviously could assume if i'm mall tattooing so i i'm not again i don't have a problem with them being tracked on tattooing it's how that fake message was sent to them that seems to be a bigger thing it's as simple as them knowing the ships respond to signal because it is like Padme or the royal ship i don't know that that's what i would go with so they don't need the resupply to track them and that will be one and quite a bunch of wrong i i admit it's odd but maybe it could be compared to like sending someone an email even though you don't know where the computer is yeah but the internet server knows where the computer is yeah but whether you know is there some sort of magic internet throughout the galaxy somewhere well maybe that's the parallel between what we would understand and mall saying if the trace is correct so he goes to investigate tattooing well because in well because in the clone wars this exact situation happens and we find out that Obi-Wan ship when you send a message to someone just has the ability to detect where that person is and send them the message yeah i don't know he wants an anakin signal like yeah he knows what anakin's tracking signal is that's how he's able to identify the ship right he says he tries to send a message to anakin says wait he's not over here let me just have the computer just figure out where he is and he says he's on tattooing what's he doing there so this should imply that the that obi-wan inquiry gun's point about not replying to the message because bait doesn't make any sense because that's not how the technology works in the second movie so if you guys want to the next one ready to move on to the next one yeah chat calm down when he says clone wars he means attack of the clones not the clone wars yeah i'm sorry i always say the movie yeah attack the clones he's a terrible title and i always forget that's what it's called um do you have sitch do you have another point that's in phantom minus well yeah i mean if we're still in this area of the movie this the whole there's two parts of this there's i mean it is really silly that a single ship manages to run the entire blockade somehow it gets the shield generator hit well it doesn't make any sense because it should have to hit the shields first and then on top of that when they leap when they finally get away from the blockade they say oh our hyper speed thing is broken and that's why they have to run on tattooing in the first place so why the fuck doesn't the trade federation chase them or go after them so the star wars it's been very clearly established that if you can't go to hyperspace you're basically a sitting duck the problem is is that let's say my hold on a second just because i i i also disagree a little bit on this one let's say you could overwhelm the shield with a blast it makes sense that shields will work that way like they just get hit too many times or it gets hit too hard or it's a powerful blaster or whatever it is that could cancel it and then the thing is is that they say it's hut space so that somehow the trade federation can't come in there i think on a macro level it makes very little sense that the whole political system about the outer rim like the huts control the space because that's never in point is never enforced you never see the huts involved until they get to the the race scene and it's like control over what exactly you know are we saying that the huts are more powerful than either the trade federation or the republic to rescue i always took it as like you don't want to do anything to brash near an enemy space to be considered like an act of war or something right well they don't even know but wait i'm saying before they know they're on tattooing they don't chase after them they just literally let them fly away and you know i think that's fair and there's no way that they could have flown from naboo to tattooing like immediately you know like the idea that they say the hyperspace is broken yeah well what i'm trying to highlight is uh naboo is in the republic's jurisdiction right so there's no way you can fly in like an even an hour it wouldn't take you out of republic space into outer rim like just that quickly like so they probably have plenty of time to follow them in non hyperspace flights is what i assume even so it's very weird that naboo is part of the republic coruscant is part of the republic the outer rims should be further out of the republic to be out of it because it's too far away to get to and somehow the end up over there we don't really know do we know how long it takes them to get to from uh the time jump is unclear um not long it takes them to get to from the blockade to tattooing i know they're heading for tattooing they plotted a course but like then they got to meet with the uh the queen they got to discuss it yeah the scene with padme clean the droid after that meeting um you know who knows how many hours it's been right no but so why isn't the federation chasing them they're in hyperspace they're not hyperspace their hyperspace is broken that's why they can't go to coruscant pretty sure they could use it but like they good question i go into hyperspace or no i have the scene open when when they fly past of the the blockade that you don't see like the little like thing and you don't see the light the stars or anything like that they're just normally flying away yeah and he says the hyperspace is broken we need to land somewhere if if anybody wanted to site like how they map stuff out in this universe we don't have to use this because it's not in the movie but tattooing and naboo are very far away for a non hyperspace travel it would take a long time but you know like i said it i think they should have been followed sure like if the idea is your hyperspace is damaged you're not going to be able to get from naboo to tattooing when being right next to the trade federation easily right that would be the point oh i'm sorry sorry i remember the quote now it says uh there's not enough fuel to get us to coruscant the hyperdrive is leaking i think that's unfeasible that they could have used hyperdrive then um we just don't see this maybe yeah yeah you might be able to do it we don't see it we don't say you have it they don't seem to use hyperdrive to get the tattooing can we know that though i guess we can't i see the jump itself hey you laugh but i mean this is what it's all based on like if you can prove it is this whether this is no written that the audience doesn't understand this because we don't 100 know something because yet i guess you know i mean i just went with that off the first glance you guys brought the issue that made me think and then i found a detail and we have to rediscuss i well i think that the issue is that the whole point is that if they could hyperdrive they would go to curuscant however they can't so tattooing is where they have to go because they can get there using impulse power whatever that's supposed to be so surely it would stand to reason that it would if it takes longer like you take more hyperdrive fuel to get further places i i don't you shouldn't have to because space but it's really strange um i because they let's see they escape they showed them entering hyperspace and they said we can only go to hyperspace so long then i would agree that's not what happens so don't so in the scene we have a scene after they get away from the blockade while they're traveling through space and they're not using hyperdrive i mean i i think it's yeah there's a scene where after mall i believe is sent to track them it's an external shot before we go into yeah so we have the scene where dark wall is introduced to try and trace them try and track them in the next scene we have them in space just going through space not hyperdrive and then after that it cuts to the interior where r2d2 gets a commendation and all that sort of thing and then they discuss going to tatooine and quaggan says you should trust my judgment we're going to tatooine but he says it's far out of the reach of the trade federation so you don't need hyperdrive i guess to get to the trade i think the issue is that it shows them speeding off away from the blockade but next time we see them they're just moseying along yeah it does seem certainly poorly translated like i don't know why they would have not just had them hyperdrive i can dumb that down to an era yeah okay and see because i would never like i would totally concede you can fix this up easily show them hyperdrive then have a character say like we what we didn't have enough fuel to get the car isn't well they don't not against it from a riding standpoint but from a from a simple editing standpoint i think they could have fixed this and i got something to bring up in the doth more fight uh i'll i'll mention it now like obi ones um nuva to kill more i think is put is is fine the way it's written but i think it's poorly executed on screen put that way so i'll see another point there that makes okay uh just for clarification i was gonna come up yeah just while it because i watched the scene again they do not hyperdrive away from the blockade they just fly away from them so um actually actually something just occurred to me sorry regs um yeah go ahead they're flying away uh they haven't like charted their destination yet they they want to go to tatooine and correct me if i'm wrong um but yeah okay yeah they want to go to tatooine but they they still have to like clear it with the queen don't they um and they say the we don't have enough fuel to get us the correspondent the hyperdrive is leaking okay we could settle in tatooine because it's closer than correspondent the possible i just hadn't made the jump yet because i did have to clear it with the queen well that's because they can't they can't it doesn't they need a new hyperdrive they can't fix it it has to be completely it doesn't matter because my entire point is the only way to escape people in star wars is hyperspace or hyperdrive so my point is why is the trade federation chasing them yeah that is still a fair point yeah that's the i think that's the big flaw with this sequence is that they clearly do not hyperdrive away from the blockade because there are still scenes where they discuss what their next course of action is about tattooing tatooine and everything in case anyone's wondering it's like they are firing the hell out of them but they won't send fighters after them why yeah and there's no second of them exiting hyperspace when they arrive at tatooine they just show up like normal like they were just flying through space okay well i can dumb that down to just simple simple editing mistake i'm not against them like even uh no escaping as much as it's trade on screen if that makes sense well i don't think it's an editing mistake that the trade federation doesn't send all their ships after them oh well i mean not filming the hyperdrive then away if that makes sense like that would be the only way that would have to escape wouldn't it well yeah that's the thing that's what the issue with the scene is is that we don't know we never see them entering or leaving hyperspace we only see them just flying regularly away from the blockade not being pursued yeah i think that's the issue okay i'll um i'll concede yeah uh so there's the whole yeah remember why these things are easily fixable that's why it's weird that they're not so there's the whole the the clink at wato plot point which is wato says he won't take republic credits so why don't kwaigon jen look somewhere else a larger dealer he says wato's a smaller dealer or how can there not be a currency trader on tatooine when the republic is such a large and massive thing in the galaxy or why didn't they simply sell their ship for a smaller ship with a functioning hyperdrive because even wato himself says he would probably be uh cheaper to buy a new ship than the fixed the one they have i think okay so i have a couple of counter points here first off uh shmi even goes and tells um kwaigon that the republic doesn't exist out there like they're completely on the run they govern by the huts um no one trades the republic essentially i mean if anyone does come from the public out there to trade they would have something you know you want to wasn't she saying in terms of like why they're slaves and being lawless you want to say in terms of trade i think it can be construed as the same thing if it's not governed by the republic um and they wouldn't trade in republic currency they i and i imagine anyone who does come from the republic wants to trade on tatooine would know or in like that portion of space but um i was something there's something more to their custom become they landed on tatooine purely by circumstance they just so just so i'm following just to make sure i understand you're saying so the reason we're we're countering the uh the question of why they don't sell their fancy royal ship and buy just a normal ship oh no no i haven't i haven't made that point yet um okay i'm i'm talking i'm talking about the uh he's talking about the the credits for now which like the idea that this is hut controlled you don't think it's reasonable to assume that there would have to be some kind of exchange rate with the enormity that is the republic like the idea that they must have people coming in and out of mosque isley all the time you'd think there'd be someone there who'd be like oh yes i'll swap credits for you know huts outlets whatever the currency is like it just seems completely normal that that would be the case wouldn't the huts be in charge of uh money changing i feel like it would benefit the huts economy to have it so that they can trade uh credits i i almost feel like the point doesn't even matter and i say that because if you sell your ship for a cheaper one the money you get for that ship oh sure in the current we can move to that one if you want because it it makes this one irrelevant anyway because it's just and i also i want to i want to add onto that really quick where it's actually cleverer to ditch your ship that you that is the royal ship of an entire planet for a cheaper shittier ship it won't be tracked so that's the whole reason why they take transport that is undetectable or undefined or whatever in attack of the clones okay um let's let's let's move to this point then um would would a broken ship be would you be able to buy anything with what's essentially a broken ship that's like you need to refuel and refit it well you just have a you know it's just a it's just a big big paperweight at that point really well it's just a one part right yeah from he puts up a huge one part is rare in that portion of space water makes it very clear that it's um very expensive and buying a new ship would be cheaper than buying the part itself but with currency they don't have i pose the argument that would the ship they'd be able to buy a new ship with what's essentially a broken ship would you be able to or a broken car to pay for a new car you know what i mean like or a very used car even you had a like i don't know a rules roice car and it had some engine problem like the belts were broken i don't know anything about cars some part of the car didn't work okay but it's just one part of the car doesn't work even if it's an important part you have one part of your rolls roice car doesn't work you don't think you could sell that for at least a couple thousand dollars to buy a shitty used car sorry one more time sorry sorry i kind of uh signed out for sick one more time i'm saying it if their ship is very expensive and fancy even if it had some part of it that's broken yeah you could sell it for a cheaper even wato even i mean quagon literally says that he's going to put the ship up it's worth as however much it costs to go into the pottery so it's obviously worth something and then later when they change the bet around uh wato is willing to accept the ship as payment so much so that he well wato has the pot that he can fit into it i understand but i'm saying the ship obviously has value some value it is a royal starship it's like it's like an air force one air force one suddenly had one of its engines out or something and it could only like fly a little bit short distance safely you really like i'm sure if you wanted to get from tatooine to naboo like he can take those kinds of trips and luxury so i mean with with shields and defense weapons and stuff it's like saying it's like selling uh i mean did you made this argument right you you selling a rolls royce without the engine which would aid for uh used amazda absolutely 100 and that would be definitely true i even think that it it would be more likely to say a rolls royce but it can only go to 80 miles an hour only a couple gears are broken you got to replace gear and yeah because it's the ship again the ship is functional it doesn't have a hyperdrive that's all it can still make the journeys as we saw seen it can go to naboo it could make that trip um i mean i think i mean it would still need fuel so um i mean uh and clue that they didn't use hyperspace at all or that it was just like we like we didn't see it and that we should have seen it what was it we concluded on um it doesn't seem like they do if i was to make a guess based on the information i see it's still an issue with the film in terms of how they display it but we never see them going to hyperdrive it's implied that the hyperdrive is broken um and when we see them even midway they are not using hyperdrive nor do they exit it just going back and watching the scenes and that's that's fine um excuse me he's a good question do we see doff more a hyperdrive we don't see how he gets the tattooing he just shows up shows up let me i'll double check while you guys are talking okay that's a good point i imagine we were supposed to have been fair that he hyperdrives i don't know because i don't suppose he's coming from croissant i'm not even sure if we see his ship i don't remember you know oh yeah sorry sorry no that's um irrelevant then sorry i thought um i just for some reason my head i got in my head that he came from tatooine ah sorry from naboo excuse me yeah sorry about it um so yeah it's my fault um right um now in terms of why quaggon all right you know those that that's an issue i'll admit like he could have maybe bothered the ship um he didn't really get the uh forry um what you might call it had the chance to sort of order with the ship and he sees the the part belongs to water and um all right let's okay i thought i dropped out can you hear me no yeah we we didn't catch the last bit yeah sorry my computer keeps black screen anyway um so uh um yeah so quaggon shows up he finds water immediately water has the part he says it's expensive um and he came in to padme he leaves uh uh quaggon asks what can we barter with it where's rick is rick still here yeah it's like where'd you go um so quaggon asks everyone what can they barter with um and then but the ship never and i'll say i'll admit it's convenient the ship never is never an object for discussion like we can sell the ship and get a new one uh he mentions the queen's wardrobe which i thought was kind of funny getting a giggle yeah um but nothing for you to follow yeah she uh she's got quite the wardrobe she does through all three movies i think half the budget of this trilogy was outfits for the queen of naboo and padme no no complaints here anyway um i wasn't gonna say the um before quaggon really has a chance to sort of like uh weigh up his options and like add on new course of action he stumbles into anakin again um and then from that point on he is interested in anakin he uh so takes like an anakin listens to shmi has to say and um uh he opts to stick with water because of his interest in anakin but as the ship because he wants to and you can say it's reckless of quaggon i absolutely yes reckless part of his character um yes and and rebellious um so i i do pose the argument that you know while quaggon could have sold the ship did he just make a gambit on faith that's uh because of his interest in anakin rather than pursuing the more logical um more rational approach to getting off the planet yeah he needs a chance to sort of barter with the ship he meets anakin takes an interest in um i think that um i understand thematically what you're saying and i understand that that's the point of the story and the way that it works out but i think that it's detrimental to the logic of it that we couldn't get the same themes without better logic well you could have quaggon be reckless and that be part of his character but the promise there's no scene where like obi one says quaggon we can sell the ship for a cheaper one and then quaggon's like no the anakin kid and then obi one's like that's very reckless and then they have that conflict we never see that con i admit it i admit it's um it's uh like it's convenience and i'll admit it's even thought that like that quaggon doesn't bring up the ship as a or even quaggon that the ship is an object to be bartered with saying as circumstance would have it they didn't quite get that far he ran to anakin and uh you know took his interest in him if you know what i mean that's why i decided to go with that option um because he had faith you know uh on the surface is foolish faith anakin which um armadala queen is testing the entire time like are you sure about this like you know she's she's the queen and quaggon knows she's the queen and he's like i'm gonna tell is like teasing her every time she like reject she would like she would like give her like almost like a wink okay pow that was funny um yeah um my argument goes from rather than what could have been done is uh as opposed to how the the timeline chain of events and how it sort of did the characters uh goals and motivations make sense i'm sorry what was the last part i'm saying is like yeah he could have bartered the ship um but as the time on your habit he didn't quite get that far into equating up his option because he immediately bumps into anakin uh he immediately you know gets told you know what a viable option might be and he has a vested interest of boy so he sticks with wato he he barters with using anakin yeah as as a chip in the race because he wants to see sense of something from him and uh like that conversation you can tell what really changes his throat already point yeah i wouldn't have a i wouldn't have a problem with that if the film itself addresses that but it doesn't so it just is like well it's a plot hole that you can sort of try to backwards figure out a way to make the plot hole make sense gotcha i i simply dumb it down to um character motivations changing or priority shifting uh rather than um i mean that could have done with the mention of that like that could have been what they were going to do and then quaggon changes i think that would have been a better way to achieve what leaks right yeah but there should be a it would have been more interesting if it was addressed and then there's an argument between obi-wan and quaggon about it because then it's like oh our characters have conflict with each other we suddenly care about them there's suddenly something to invest emotionally in you know quaggon suddenly seems more reckless than we're led to believe eventually he still is reckless and they eventually do have that conflict they're disagreements over anakin as a character not right yeah yeah they disagree about training anakin yes he does sort of he does uh i just sorry i just wanted to point out that the hyperdrive is leaking initially so there's not enough power to get to coruscant it's more about the there's a point at some point where they realize they have to divert to tattooing that's that's perfectly fine the way that it is but even so the the device itself has to be replaced in and in the script i was just reading it's the power supply unit just to be clear about what we're talking about we're we're moving forward glib you're killing us i understand i understand i have no interest in that again i i think it's fine like writing lies that they get to tattooing based on that i just think that they should have like included the jump in how far it is because you know agree so anyway it's portrayed in the form it almost feels like the planet's neighbors um i mean yeah so i'll again i've already conceded to that uh to some degree like the thing i'm being quite reasonable we're moving so let's uh we get to even another point or uh where we're done with that um yeah no i've so i conceded i i said i think it's entirely uh unfeasible that quibon would have done that out of uh you know his engine motivations as a character and shifting priorities because he you know it's very clear in that conversation at the dinner table that um he takes a huge interest again is like his curiosity um not to mention him betting on the pod races a viable option um i think yeah like i'll agree that it could have been executed better with the mention of the ship option being bartered um and the conflict you speak of a quaggon and so yeah so quaggon and obi one disagree does come it just comes a bit yeah but it's about something far more nebulous because you know like if right if an average audience person is watching phantom in us they're not you know they're not going to think oh quaggon's really reckless because he's in the cell of the ship that's why i don't believe that was george's intention because it was intention you it would be called out by the script and you'd be like wow this is something that the audience is aware of and they could see check um what was sorry just restart that i'm saying the reason i don't think that this this wasn't intentionally written in the script because if it was the audience when they would see it the george lucas and the writing would call attention to quaggon being so incredibly reckless that he's willing to risk his entire mission with nebu just for some little kid he just found that completely had me call the quaggon's character and they call them out for being reckless at the race yeah but in this but the she doesn't she doesn't pose the alternative she she's not saying we could have just sold their ship but you don't have to do all this stuff she just says you're being reckless because this is dangerous for anakin who is the alternative but she like is heavily open to an alternative when she says it's reckless it she seems to be implying that the race is just dangerous for anakin not that the whole betting on anakin strategy and there's an alternative try some playing both then i think it would be reasonable to have her if even if anakin's safety was her priority at her concern of that then being open to an alternative would still follow that she'd be you know she'd still want an alternative to get right i'm i'm i'm i'm agreeing with that okay all right i think i think that quaggon's point of view on this whole thing is totally reasonable from the opinion that quaggon is kind of a cowboy jedi who goes really hard into the force and his belief in the force is like what guides him and that's kind of why he's at odds with the council is that he's supposed to be the one that's really in touch with it on a one-to-one basis and so he's the wrong guy exactly so quaggon paul quaggon paul is out there and he's uh he's trying to well anyway so the the thing is that since he he wants to bank it on anakin for like the the idea that there's a grand arching scheme but that's not the goal of any of the other characters so it can't be the only discussion had in the plot as they're for it to be really well sorted out there would have to be some sort of contention like obi one's right and i understand obi one contests it over like why do you believe in this boy so much and then he he puts that in there but then there's not really much from amadala she's just kind of going along with the plan but it's her ship right am i getting that right that seems a little off i'm actually like i that does pose another question like if it's her ship doesn't why isn't she granted she wanted to keep her cover but um if it's her ship to barter with really didn't want to i mean that a feasible option that like it was uh you cut out again i'm sorry yeah sorry it's a black screen fuck um it's feasible to say that like the jedi didn't want to barter the ship because it wasn't there's the barter with unless then at the same time there's uh the queen's wardrobe it did right like well quaggan does barter with the ship eventually anyway so and and something that i'm interested in sure he does he does he does the subset of this and the entire wager is the idea that quaggan is willing to jedi mind trick someone out of their hyperdrive but he's not willing to straight up steal it he's not willing to do any well maybe i think that really the thing is is that he wanted anakin and he couldn't get the the the thing that's the chip or whatever that's in his head that would blow you up or the thing that they say to them that may or may not be there he wants to make sure that he can get anakin which then goes into the other thing which is like and i know this is much later into it but for this guy that makes these wagers he doesn't wager in the mother at all which seems like a immoral thing well in the mother sorry the thing is about if the if quaggan's motivation is so focused on anakin i mean you can very easily say well quaggan can just take the queen to course on and then just come back for anakin it's not like there's some ticking time element that anakin's gonna be gone you know he just has to get him right there at this specific time yeah i got it i do have no idea like um and well it's but it's probable that like he still sees anakin as a viable option again because it's it's not it's not a question of uh it's quaggan explain us his um interesting curiosity uh so i guess clouding his judgment because again he is very much interested in anakin um he wants to take him with him to correspond um he's contemplating it the whole time but he decides on the day of the race to uh uh to barter for him and in regards to he guy's gonna let me just ask he guy's gonna bring up the whole quaggan using the mind trick is questionable when he chooses to use it because i can i can't argue that i mean i don't really well i mean yeah i just thought i don't know what i was the point was that he's kind of more quite morally gray i thought that was kind of like a given i assume we all agree yeah i just didn't understand what his i don't understand what the limits of his morality are because yeah he's he's listed as a great jedi i think you might have said it yourself he's willing to manipulate people to get what he wants if he thinks it's important enough but he isn't going to outright steal it right he tries to lie he doesn't like break like i'll give you a first example um and this is one thing like uh this is actually the only joke that landed for me basically when he's using the mind trick and then when obi won uh is like the queen's idea work and then uh quaggans like the gongons will not be easily swayed and he's like we cannot use our power to help her and then quickly gets like we had no problem using it before asshole and quaggan uses it to barter for things he needs to sort of get from a to b i think that's a perfectly flexible gray area when um obi one is asking the gongons to help the nabu or nothing to boot whatever i'm sorry um essentially asking them to take up arms and fight back against adoration i don't know it's not going to be like we what he doesn't do is use the mind trick to convince him to go to war right as soon as he sees that can't be convinced to do that he's like okay give us a transport and we'll be on our way then when obi one like looks at him is like we use the mind trick he's like no absolutely not i'm not gonna use a mind trick to convince people to you know jump into a battlefield that's extremely fucking you know rules yeah and i'm a problem that's sure again he was we're still gonna give water the credits let's not forget when he says credits do you fly it wasn't gonna steal it from it no that's true that's true right but if the credits are useless it doesn't really matter i i just don't know i don't know how to i don't know how to place his disposition so chat someone in chat was saying quagon is like chaotic good and i get that but it would be much he that that gives him a lot of options is what i'm saying that means that he's not dictated necessarily by what we got in the plot there's a lot more choices that he could make if his overall disposition is gray and and and we've listed a bunch of ways and i think there was contrition on it like but obviously there's something about this boy is the key line that's what is leading him to do all this stuff i think it's a valid point that he could basically just visit anakin and then come back to get him there's no i don't think there's any guarantee that wato would sell him but um because it's just it's just a lot well there's similarly not a guarantee he'd keep him right well no because wato says that the that the boy is useful and good and he's praising anakin many times in front of quagga and anakin is kind of a genius and he's got special powers but um yeah okay well well another question though if i may what would quag what would quag one have to bother with i would assume someone in the republic on coruscant has some either uh they have whatever the huts used for currency or they have some actual object of value that he could trade yeah i mean he could literally tell wato he could literally tell wato hey how much do you want for anakin i'll come back in like a week and give you i'll pay you whatever the fuck you want you're telling me that the jedi which are a piece of peaceful galaxy and the senate don't have enough to free that kind of especially the jedi who are interested in this prophecy that's like the center of everything but hey on two things one nitriting credits um which again is with the establishment that's invalid right for but honestly and because we we we made a point earlier to get hut currency we made a point earlier that it made no sense that there wasn't a currency exchange that was part of the black market on masaisli which is kind of what the huts would be about the gangs and i think it has to be black market i think that's just part of normal economic operations the planet well shmi does establish that that such a thing just doesn't exist i mean it exists in the books great but in the movies it doesn't exist so we got to go with that currency exchange well she says there's no one friendly to the republic that they can trade with that like it can help them right which is but it's so odd that something that's so close to nabu that it's you don't need a hyperdrive to get there which is part of the outer rim but nabu is not part of the outer rim nabu is this really like reformed place and tattooing is just the worst the with the proximity of those two things there's so many details there there's so many issues with the idea that this place that is like where slavery exists that's outside of the republic would not be like a port town or a border town equivalent and how those are usually places where all sorts of illicit activity are going back well it's it's the idea that obviously i i think it's i think it's reasonable to say that there are there are economic exchanges that take place between these two groups so obviously if they use two different currencies than exchanging and like there is going to be a value i know it's not one of those explicit things in the movie but i think it would be unreasonable to say that there is not an exchange of currency that takes place in the galaxy when you have like even the trade with like uh the cis is thousands of solar systems so it just seems like that would be a given i mean again like uh you could you could call it you could turn it down to being unusual or like a stretch of logic but it again we gotta go do we not have to go by what was said in the uh in the in the movie itself which is that there is none or none that schmi knows of at least well they're not asked because the schmi brings up that line in regards to padme saying i can't believe there's still slavery out here the republic's anti-slavery laws and then she gets caught off by schmi saying you know well this isn't the republic she's talking about the anti she says the republic doesn't exist out here so she's talking about the anti-slavery law she's not talking about currency trade no no no um that's probably an answer is like is there anyone friendly to the republic that knows about schmi so if there was then schmi didn't know where they could find it's when they could model with using republic but surely you would agree that um people not being friendly to the republic there doesn't necessarily mean that republic credits wouldn't be able to be traded there right uh excuse me one more time so uh the idea that she she's saying there's no one here that's friendly to the republic that can help them doesn't necessarily mean um that they wouldn't be somewhere to trade republic credits in moss isley she could because i assumed what she was referring to was just that um you know there's no person that can help them be it with a ship or favor you know okay well um i mean it's part i mean it could just down to what schmi does and does not know if it exists like you know if there is a way for it for them to bother it's you know one it might exist on tatooine but she has no knowledge so she doesn't know she doesn't have a solution for them on that you know so why is quaggon taking advice from a slave like why doesn't he try to be proactive and figure this out on his own the local way and he's there by circumstance that he's just there for shelter and then he bumps into anakin and then he takes an interest in anakin um again i'm not saying i'm not saying he couldn't have done all these things just circumstances make it work out that way his priority shift when he's there he you know he keeps a change of perspective so to speak um i would just uh rick um well i mean we can keep roll on until whatever happens happens and i'm happy to go it alone save the storm to spare where is uh i was trying to say that in the chat so i didn't derail the conversation um yeah if you have to go man uh just go i can you can get uh you can get Anna on it i mean if she wants to she could could act as proper for i don't know if i'm gonna survive maybe she's just drawing i don't know well i don't want to bring in a third person to team up on him i wanted somebody else to be on no no no no it would replace you i was just joking good it's that's okay i can bring Anna on i don't mind um even the storm i don't think Anna's anti-prequel at least well i don't know yeah i don't know but she she's upset with us so yeah if anything i got the impression all right bring her on bring her on well anyway okay we don't want to have an unfair contest all okay you guys do what you um yeah back to the point well wait uh does uh if rick if rick is looking for um an opportunity to jump out is i'd happily give him one what are you looking are you able to stay for x-men of time or do you need to go now uh i wanted to leave now but i was gonna hang on for a few minutes if there was like somebody on their way yeah it really depends on if Anna wants to come in or not chat seemed to have decided whether or not they wanted to come in yeah uh she's pro star wars i don't know what that means in the i i don't even know what that means these days she's a pro star or pro star pro sequel too that'd be interesting i i seriously doubt it i i do i doubt no there you were probably gonna find uh not many sequel defenders there's no of course not oh yeah you know getting getting prequel defenders that are right it's difficult to find well i mean don't bring in too many people and hopefully we can get through phantom menace this stream you know what's going in yeah that's what we want she's not said anything yet yeah i don't know if she's interested i think she said she was just painting which i respect as well i was gonna say like it's good i don't have to do it it's just more no if oh yeah like i i this is all under the assumption she wanted to i don't i i assume that i didn't know if she actually was uh keen on it or if she even wanted to i mean somebody else that wants to defend the prequels in that that we know you know that's fine too it's just i don't want it to be one on anomaly especially when like he's been up for so long you know he's a soldier at it so you know i don't want to do him a disservice at all he said now there's no sleep you're you're a warrior man i mean we could always come back for oh hey there you go too if that's an issue you got you got back up with anna she's coming in okay hey she's gonna do it yeah you know yeah all right let's keep going and yeah we had uh yeah so while she's getting that ready i guess you guys can continue the next point lord knows why we still have plenty to discuss plenty to talk about okay that's it you want to go or do you want me to go uh well i mean i was gonna talk about anakin's characterization i don't know if there's something before that you want to talk about um let me just see uh his characterization as a slave specifically um no i not until later in the movie you can go okay so a big mistake with anakin's character i mean obviously the acting's bad but that's not the writing a big mistake with the way his character portrayed is that we're told him and his mothers are slaves and that should be instant empathy points for the audience but we don't really feel this the audience doesn't feel his slavery because like most because like most things in the movie it's entirely being told to us and not shown to us we don't see wato abusing anakin and overworking him we don't see anakin being beaten or mistreated we don't even see we don't even know what anakin's mother does for wato every scene with her she's at home taking care of anakin they even have their own little house that seems like they're perfectly fine living in and we even see that anakin apparently has enough free time a slave has enough free time to build a droid and a pod racer and no and it's totally fine with this nobody cares about this so this idea of anakin being a slave is merely just told to us we don't experience it or see it and thus we don't have an emotional connection to it okay can i can i tell you something it's gonna blow your mind right now low my my completely agree awesome um oh my god nice that's dialectics yeah i think it's entirely like i think it's more of a mixed bag chat's gonna be very upset no no no chat give me that um like a lot like a lot of people i mean stitch's perspective here isn't entirely wrong let's say like it's there's some truth to it um well i've always seen anakin slavery isn't like lords so much as there's a lot more to be desired if that makes sense for example when i watch i can buy anakin slavery but we see he wears ratty clothes he lives in the shithole i'm here you can buy a slavery that was pretty good it's very clever what you did there i caught it it was all intentional just like don't ask what happened say oh my god sorry it was it was the will of the comedy it's slow yes right um so so um uh you know he was in a shithole but it's allocated quarters for slaves to in and they allocate to certain owners and whatnot um i think in you know works at a junkyard i have no doubt he could maybe handle some parts and put together some stuff especially if he hasn't finished some things and whatnot however a few things i think the slavery needed to be more flushed out for example uh slavery like sell the pod for example and um they get money for the the pod right let's keep it despite being slaves right right um also again i'm not gonna guess anakin building the pod i think i think it's probably feasible in his spare time that he could he could get the parts he could make the part he could make 3po or at least fix 3po apparently it's not counting it but there's some book law that says 3po is very old and anakin like building from scratch but he picked my next in um but i'm fine with how it is in me as a slave there should have been more attention what to like is watching it as much as i can buy is a slave it comes across more as a disadvantaged just a disadvantaged kid as opposed to a slave you know what i mean like uh more akin to like charlie and the chocolate factory you know works all day and you know he has to come over his mom at the end of the day and uh you know like he's coming back from an after-school job that pays him to no money well except if he has a Japanese head that blows him up i have a i have a proposition that could fix a lot of anakin's character problems the way that it was presented in a final movie and that's that anakin should have been the same age as uh padman oh dear give me one sec chill out she's been given the link she you gotta let her get a pc ready okay calm down chill out she's on her way give her give her a sec i uh so so my proposition is that if it was if he was the same age we could already lead into the idea of the attack of the clones love story all of their conversation little points about you're an angel and stuff would be like flirting and maybe more of a james dean search situation him making a car makes more sense if he's like 16 which is a throwback to american graffiti right and then that explains why he would be able to build c3po because he's like 16 or 15 or whatever and his value as a salesman which is that's around the time that you start to work at a shop maybe wato favors him so much that he doesn't beat him anymore because he knows he's not going to run because he's got the bomb in his brain and because he anakin is his only employee that does way more work than any other employee but we still want the audience to feel like oh this kid is a slave and i feel for him it's like you know when you see jango getting beaten or jory leford is getting whipped in roots like the whole point of this is so that you have emotional you know understanding that this is a slave isn't controlled actions i don't think that i think a lot of it was attributed to the writing as well you can't exactly sure well yeah i understand it's pg it's not going to be like was it pg or pg 13 it was pg right it was definitely like the kids like i think yeah i understand it's not like yeah i understand they're not going to show like the scene of anakin being beaten but you can have subtle things you can have like quaggon moves and anakin kind of like moves away like he's afraid he's going to get hit or he could have like an interesting scene could be when c3bio calls anakin master you know anakin's like you're not and i'm not your master and he has like a big problem with the word master and that could even go further into when you're a jedi he's a prom calling the map like there's so much you could do with the slavery backstory that's just seems like it's not explored at all that's true again i i'm on i'm on the side of there is more to be desired from like this and there's a couple good scenes cut out too which was a shame i'm not using them as part of my argument i'm just saying like it's not that george didn't think of it it's just that like a lot of it was cut at four time um for example anakin can be bullied by i think he was having a fight with gredo and then quaggon breaks it up and uh quaggon basically sides with anakin and the gredo trust you or just like an alien okay i should probably it's not a road in actual lore it's actually gredo it's actually gredo but the okay the creature that is like anakin's age is a slave that's gredo me bounty oh interesting he's like is that the is that the one that like says that like mocks him i'm trying i don't remember what he says he's like oh anakin yeah an apprentice to have a fight i've seen deleted scenes tana mess has so many good deleted scenes but again i'm not using this part of the argument uh another good one is actually the fight between um some extra knowledge if you guys want it um and dark more fight when quaggon jumps on the ship and dark more doesn't pursue in the deleted scene he does there's actually a subtle like sort of uh set up for how quaggon's gonna die because he uses the same move that uh more users to stagger him uh to sort of get him off the ship just and then like the same move that more users to stagger him and then leave um so yeah it's it's real shame yeah there's a lot of i definitely recommend checking out um because a lot of the things people think like you know i didn't think of this or lots of fluoride and get this again um i'm not saying it's it's all justified for lacking in the deep but there's a lot of there's so much uh great little like answers to the creation of the prequels from and not just the scenes that were cut out but like in terms of like design and big and things and it also it also turns the CGI argument absolute dog shit like to guarantee watch the back behind says the prequels um and yeah you'll find the CGI argument holds very little water um but back on point yeah i agree um phantom menace sorry yeah uh there is more to be desired from anakin slavery because it comes across to me as more of a disadvantaged child than an actual child slave but i attribute a lot of that to the rating itself um there was more uh in regards to anakin being uh you know there were there were more scenes that sort of relate to a situation that would just well it doesn't affect none of them of where it gets it doesn't affect his characterization i mean that was a big problem i had with the sequels is that ray is supposed to be this you know abandoned child living a horrible life on jacuz and fin is like this brain controlled soldier and you'd expect people who live through that to act very differently than ray and fin act in the movie and it's the same thing with uh with anakin he's a slave you should have a very you know he you don't think he's going to be like the positive cheery kid when he's been a slave his entire life um well i mean that's what george wanted he didn't want to start off anakin with a uh i mean granted that his whole upbringing and the fact he was a slave begin it does play into his development he specifically wanted uh you know a cheery happy hopeful like lovable lovable innocent child who you know does a complete 180 by the end of right but you shouldn't because there was there was a company i i assume you've seen the um i mean it's it's for the anyway um we'll get to that uh i assume you've seen the uh the footage of like jake Lloyd's casting how there was there was two choices there was jake there was um this other kid it was it was like very blonde and he kind of resembled luke and people say that he should have gone with that he like his portrayal of anakin was more uh dark yeah he answered the uh he sounded like a more dark and disturbed kind of uh boy i think a lot of people were kind of hoping for but um jake delivers his lines he has that sort of like innocence to him his delivery and that's what made george light up as soon as he starts uh delivering them it's pretty clear like that i mean and he went through so many yeah but he wrote if i recall what he was when he was writing he wrote it as an age range and he chose the youngest part of the age range to to cast for some reason instead of choosing a 15 year old it was because um if it was too if it was too um he was he was like sort of like too old to traditionally start Jedi training but not like ridiculously oh i think that was i can't confirm that but um i'm pretty sure that was the reason like he didn't want to make anakin too old for that reason because then they definitely wouldn't have taken him well that would have made it more interesting if that he was like because that would be cool to see some scenes of anakin being indoctrinated into the jedi thing and be as a teenager instead of a kid and being like i can't believe that i got to sit here with these little kids and do the same thing and then right okay and like i don't like i don't like the argument of um you know should have done this instead of i mean unless unless it achieves like i mean i can't i don't want to open up another pandora's box but like you can't tell a creator how to create if that makes sense you can't tell him like you know uh you know we shouldn't have had our job beings we should have had this or uh this so it looks like no i get what you're saying but i can say whether or not i thought it was good you can criticize like how the creator could have achieved the same thing to better right right yes that's what i did i disagree if you want to have anakin be a bright-eyed cheery kid that's totally fine just don't make him a slave then because that doesn't those two things don't mesh together i mean i would argue that anakin was uh you know uh more better off a slave but a more better off slave again but there is a little tip again i i kind of wish we got more of it too i do wish more of it too i'm not denying that okay well we can move on then yeah just uh before i think it's a good discussion before we do though uh ana are you here hello all right sorry i'm trying to figure out the microphone settings on discord oh i was just gonna say the i suppose rick you're welcome to um jump out if you'd like to know but you know okay well yes i was waiting for somebody to replace but if she's here then um sorry that i didn't make it to the end guys it's okay you've been here for very long time uh do you want to tell chat longer than most tell chat what what you do on your channel and why they should subscribe okay uh oh you mean say it or type it in the chat no say it say it with a song in your heart i thought i okay i didn't have a minute say it here or post it somewhere uh yeah my channel i've well it's mostly the star wars videos now but i'm posting other types of movie videos so uh let me say i don't know i'm not sure you're your yeah i'm not totally unique on youtube it's just oh by the way before you go can i just um praise you for a second rick because i think that you're one of the best on youtube at making comparisons and showing different old films and how they're influenced from each other i thought that watching your video i was in just i loved visually seeing all of the representations of how one shot was done in one movie and in another because that just tickles my fancy and you do that what video editing yeah great stuff well yeah i was gonna say in case you're not selling yourself enough uh chat he's he's got a video where he like he takes rlm to task mr plinkett himself as well as chris stubborn on the prequels no less check it out uh give it a give it a good old give it a good old look see he's got some arguments you may not have heard of maybe you have some wonderful little edits um i've spammed it a bit in chat so you know go go forth and it's in the description it's very unique in his oh well now you guys are being so nice i don't want to run away you got um well i mean i'm not saying you have to but it's preferable if you'd run away just because of how screwed up the icons are on screen right now i'm just kidding i do need to leave but thank you thank you guys for the kind words uh no problem thank you for coming on chat it's fine all right i'll talk to you later yeah i'll see you around bye bye well then here we are how long have we been going for because i'm really been keeping track of time don't think about it don't think about five hours don't look down 45 minutes ish blow uh wait this all day so i suppose the two ways we could go right now is uh you could bring up the next point you guys want to or ana could say anything she wants to say before we get on to a new point i don't know i say i would love to hear because ana has been listening to us the whole time that she has ana how you've been feeling your your chat's avatar right now i know i was supposed to be working but then i got distracted uh sorry about that can one of you guys talk so i can see if my microphone is picking it up because i've always had that problem with discord yeah um we can talk we can talk about this i can talk as well talk about all the things that there are to talk about am i echo me no no no no i go high rise okay that's fixed i figured it out okay we're good um yeah yeah it's been frustrating listening to this but um to say please i am actually uh on the team that the prequels are not uh the best written things in the universe well um so are you arguing against anomaly or with anomaly well i think that uh they're not the best written but i don't uh agree with a majority if not all of the points that you've made so you think they're not well written but we're just bad at explaining that i garen i garen fucking to you everybody who's on this will be considered bad at explaining that point so what is i think that's a good it's a good new angle what is an example of something that matters that we haven't talked about in the fantasy that you haven't talked about well i mean that'll come when we get to a point but i mean our arguing about the minutiae of like droids and then little things like with jar jar i mean that that's just more opinion based than actual you know what we're talking about we're talking about plot holes i don't think we're talking about opinion based things but oh no there's a bunch of stuff that you were saying that was opinion based based like about jar jar and art being funny or how it took away from your enjoyment of the plot as compared to other people i think that's fair that's me because i i have a problem with like it and i don't want to reference other video people but i feel like the tonal inconsistency when it comes to jokes is something that has to be done with very like delicacy like the best of weedens stuff is making light of a bad situation like um in the beginning of firefly when he's talking to the kid and and the kids are afraid to die and he needs that kid to fight because they're waiting for the bombers to come in and they are the angels to come down and rescue them from the are you spoiling firefly for me that's the beginning that's the beginning he just says to the kid you're too pretty you know why we're not going to die because we're too pretty and then the kid gets shot in the head and that's a character moment for for malcom because he just watches everything burns everything that he was saying from no it's the it's the opening scene of the first there's such a piece of shape you spoiled the opening scene of the first episode it's been out for like what decades you just spoiled the beginning of it for me while i'm sorry did you know that at the end of that sense through swillies oh my god rose spud's the sled oh my god no bruce willis was the sled and uh so so nothing so it's nothing you want to well first of all this is i don't know if it's going to be fair then because this is i thought the whole point was we didn't want this if if she's just clarified that she would have fought you on all of your points so far i don't know that she would be considered team sitch okay i think this is a new i think there's a new angle to this okay so here's my stand on i think that it's good at the storytelling i can follow it the dialogue um that's my biggest problem with it like i like sand really or i hate sand right i don't like someone you know that that kind of stuff is what bothers me but it's always the story debate later why why why do you personally have a problem with sand jeez biggest my biggest i with the dialogue is uh when padme says i love the water why i love water oh that's what sets him up to say the sand line is it is that that is what she says that that sparks the sand line yeah hey man some people like water okay jeez i don't think that that's the it's it's not the shadowing context for that there's extra context for this i'm happy some of this some of this is not necessarily like the line exactly the way that it's written but also performed and when i was watching the prequels it was difficult for me to like i had to really be diligent about differentiating between something that was a technical issue with cgi or something that i saw whether it was something that was a logical inconsistency with the overall narrative whether it was clunky dialogue or whether it was bad performances in an environment that didn't seem realistic and that line like that it's it's the sequence of events that makes it awkward like the fact that he just like stares at her tits after saying that and he's like got his creepy finger on his back it makes it really difficult for me to get into the scene but if that line was presented in a way that was more like coherent to the way that they were vibing if they had good chemistry then maybe that line wouldn't be so cheesy because you can riff on a cheesy line but that line the way that it's all presented in context with the writing just just comes off wrong i don't know how else to say it i mean you could say i'm being subjective but and i'd be happy to debate you on that when we cross that break right put it in that for now that's an if attack the clones yeah yeah we'll get to the episode too but i mean i i we don't have to go over everything that's already yeah i mean if if you want to just keep going sit whatever you've got next yeah well i was gonna say i actually have something of a something to say that the phantom minister correct which is that was you notice that when subulba is introduced he's introduced as the best pilot and he always wins and anakin is clearly portrayed as the underdog and that is exactly what i was talking about earlier which also needed to be established with the jedi and the droids and the trade federation you need to have your villain seem like he's ahead of your heroes so that there's conflict and tension when they come to battle like there is when anakin goes against subulba it would be no it would be stupid and tensionless if it's from the beginning of the scene it's oh anakin's the best pilot and subulba sucks because then you'd be like well then the pod races is boring and not exciting actually i just i just found out of another um excuse me another argument for um to go back but uh i'll just throw it out there when you can move on um um the pod race with anakin and subulba because when anakin when quail on jinn lands on when pod race is going to take take place the next day regardless so i could place the argument that um because quail on does say we're running out of time um one could say that instead of having to look for someone to barter with like you know the republic or willing to take the ship it could potentially get the job done quicker because as a as a as a time thing to because the race is going to go ahead or not they they get the part or not maybe perhaps you can add on to the incident that quail on sees it as it's it's the quickest way to get off tata win even if it isn't the most practical if i'm kind of i don't really want to relitigate the whole point but i mean yeah i just i just wanted to throw that in as an extra as an extra point we don't have to elaborate on it just i'm afraid to disagree gotcha sit you got someone else um in it in it sorry one of your point stitch to go back to it excuse me um god so you're saying you know actually you're like in favor of the dynamic between anakin and subulba yeah i'm saying that's the goal right it's the correct dynamic you want to have that's good to know i agree okay i'm just uh so i don't agree with how you how you like sort of relate that to the rest of the but i agree i assumed you didn't like that part yes but i agree with you liking right but you understand why it's important for subulba to be portrayed as better than anakin of course yeah i can anakin isn't he is meant to be the underdog so of course luke's is going to portray subulba as the uh the the king pin the champion beatable racer whatever right because if it was reversed the pot race would be boring and if you and another thing to sort of prove that george wants like it knows like that a villain a true antagonist needs to be needs to push the hero um you know there's a reason he cast ray park to choreograph darth moore darth moore didn't have much in terms of character but you can you know he's still intimidating as hell because of how he's portrayed on film long silent probatic strolled uh looks like a it's like a satan you know like uh i mean so i again like i said it adds to my point that like the jedi being really gary stews of the start was by design um to show their dominance and then that also hypes the in a sense hypes to fight with darth moore because when they do come across especially when darth moore takes them both on at the same time these are two guys who have been we think through the opposition like butter up until that point and now they kind of kill one guy with plus that savor yeah no it does hype the fight with darth moore and if darth moore became the primary antagonist for characters after the first 10 minute opening scene and i would agree with you completely the problem is that he's not he only shows up twice and he's there's no like they're not like running away the whole time like oh shit darth moore look right around the corner we have to escape this guy um again that that that's more of a like a i could have done this sort of thing i mean i'm explaining how your point would work emotionally with the story yeah i i get that um but i know i never really saw it as a problem with dawg will not having character in fact i i actually liked well no no i'm not saying he has a character i'm not saying i have a character i'm saying if you're counter to my point that the droids aren't a threat is well darth moore is a threat i'm saying yes and if darth moore was the primary antagonist for our heroes that would be totally fine but he's not so what's the problem the problem is that you need to have your antagonist be threatening otherwise the story has no emotional tension and is boring how is he not threatening darth darth moore is threatening the droid army in the trade federation are not so are you arguing with the federation or darth moore okay i'm sorry you guys were like sounding like robots for a few minutes so i i oh okay it got cut out so i'm asking i was i was saying why subolba is dynamic with anakin works and comparing it to how it doesn't work with the jedi's dynamic with the trade federation how sub how anakin is the underdog and subolba is shown to be better at him that that's what creates the tension in the race if it was the other way around and anakin was the best pilot ever from the beginning then the race would be boring and i'm saying that's why the jedi being so much more powerful than the droid army is boring i wouldn't say boring is very hard to argue against with spring well i'm not emotionally engaging for the audience i guess okay the better way to phrase it because i enjoyed watching the jedi shine so to speak um i kind of stood the scene for what it was um and again seeing the jedi dominate the droids and it's like there's like levels in terms of like uh i don't know if the term power levels is what you want to use like you got your you got your the queen and her soldiers which is like the same part of uh or maybe slightly above the battle droids which are i guess we're calling the bottom of the barrel um then you have the droid decars which are above the infantry i guess on par with the jedi for the jedi above both and then you have like dark mulchers i guess there too you know there are different units sure i yeah i don't disagree with anything in the jedi cut through the battle droids easily when real when regular infantry struggle makes the jedi seem powerful which is what they've seen with which is what the uh lucas was trying to achieve and i think he did right i think he thought it was boring because he thought you know jar we're gonna win i think he succeeded by with what he's trying to buy design and really get the criticism like you're criticizing well no no i'm saying we can go back to i don't want to re-litigate this point because we talked about this in the beginning so we can just showing the jedi so powerful also props up dark mulch he's a five more happy because yeah i agree okay he's not in the movie he is when he he serves the purpose he needs to i i'm i'm okay i cut out um yeah i'm willing to okay we can just move move on instead of read time out what we talked about for an hour already um okay when uh when when darth mal attacks squagon for the first time on tattooing palpatine specifically tells darth mal that his goal is to get to bring padme back to tattooing but when mal attacks squagon squagon tells to anakin in front of mal who hears him he says you know tell them to take the ship off and then squagon and mal just fight each other and darth mal does not seem at all concerned with stopping the ship which is his actual goal he seems more concerned with fighting squagon i mean squagon is a jedi right like if he runs past him he might open himself up to being killed well it's actually it's actually worse than that because the way it works is that darth mal flips over squagon so his back is already to the ship and squagon's already on the other side of the of darth mal from the ship so squagon's already i mean so darth mal's already on the right side to attack the ship he's already separated squagon from the ship and he doesn't even try you're saying that the secret should have been more about him running to go after the ship and defending himself from squagon who's trying to stop him yeah i'm saying that the scene destruction and this is a big problem darth mal should be darth mal is trying to stop the ship and squagon has to stop darth mal as opposed to darth mal just shows up and then they fight right um but maybe he's distracted by him i understand the counter argument to that that and then i also think that there's a point for mal seems to be really excited to fight the jedi more than anything else so maybe he's kind of a loose cannon type and he just wants to fight the jedi more then that's his entire life goal is to fight jedi that's what i thought i know that's not in the movie i don't remember that ever being i i get i get that from this character it's not uh it's his motivation and the clone wars and in the books but i well he does say he does say at last we will reveal ourselves to the jedi at last we will take our revenge that to me is his entire motivation he really just hates jedi and then you see on his face how excited he is to fight the jedi and how much he relishes killing squagon so i totally understand the idea of him getting distracted however i also think that that wasn't clear yeah i think the scene could just be tweaked a little bit for him to head straight to the ship and quagon cuts him off and and then they fight like that could be cool like that not necessarily strictly better i mean i think it still works interest in the ship right and i and i don't mind is interested in the jedi he has no interest in padme or any of that if he did then he would have been in the throne room when they uh you know attacked feed i yeah i think that his personal character actually is in is in violation of um and his downfall is how much he wants to engage the jedi but see but this is right but this is the problem is that that would all be very interesting characterization for garth mull he really wants to fight the jedi so much so that he's willing to not listen to palpatine this that's all that's very interesting and give his character deaths none of this we don't know that palpatine well i don't think i don't think palpatine specifically tells him to bring the queen to naboo so she can sign the treaty i think it would have been much better if there was more maul character involvement in that sense like if we had a little bit more information about maul's motivation that would define why he did those choices it would be better but i think it's like what mauler said it's just you could minorly improve that but i also don't think that that's the worst kind of sin and well no i'm not saying it's the worst thing ever i'm just saying it is a point if i bring up a point and and then the the fan fix is well there's all this interesting character stuff that's great if any of the interesting character stuff was in the movie but it's not that's what makes it bad yeah and so that's what makes it not great but i mean everything that you're just saying it still gets accomplished padme still goes to naboo and the jedi are now aware of the sith's presence which is what i haven't watched this movie in a long time but what i can remember at the end is that city is as happy that the jedi are now aware of them correct or is that i'm talking about darthmos characterization not the order of events that padme is going to to improve it to be in my mind to be qualified as good writing i would have to see a little bit more characterization that clearly defined why maul was doing what he was doing oh obviously he's going after the jedi it took me a little he's a bad guy going after the good guys he doesn't not every bad guy needs to be three dimensional that's what palpatine is for palpatine is the bad guy yeah but he has to be three dimensional if he directly contradicts what palpatine told him to do and then the explanation for that is well he's three-dimensionally so his action spoke louder than words basically he didn't have a scene when he talks about it his actions did it for him and all we're saying is that if we if we added in a little bit of flavor or text like if we had a little backstory that just explained that just a little bit more dialogue between him and palpatine or whatever that explained that his focus would be more on his hatred of the jedi than on the mission which is what we see is that he'd rather engage jedi than go after padme and the mission that palpatine gives him now if we had just a one thing a scene of him training or something like that just hating jedi a lot and and palpatine saying like you know it's good that your hatred is let your hatred flow through you but you know keep focused on the mission right or palpatine could scold him after tatooine and say like you were too focused on the jedi and not getting the queen or something you just need something to do with that palpatine doesn't care about him palpatine does not care about any of his apprentices except for anakin that's the only one that he shows any remote you know type of feelings for so and everything that you're complaining about it's like darth maul dies because of his mistakes we all understand what darth maul's mistakes are just because there wasn't an extra dialogue scene in the movie doesn't take away from what happens at the end no you're you're claiming all this characterization for darth maul and none of this is in the movie and then when i asked for it to be in the movie you say well it doesn't have to be in the movie i don't understand this logic you're based off of the movie he wants to okay so just based on his actions he doesn't go for the ship he doesn't follow palpatine's mission that he gave him he just wants to kill kwaigon and obi one okay he tries to do that he fails at the end what does he do he tries to kill them he gets one and he dies because he didn't listen to palpatine so don't you do you see that there could be a do you see that there could be a better uh characterization of that even though oh 100 percent i agree with you okay i think that's all the same right isn't that just said what's it just saying is that it could just be better no no no because this is always this is always the fan speculation feeling thick fixing something out of the fact if something happens you go huh that doesn't make sense and the movie doesn't call it out at any point you can't assume that oh well that's really the deep characterization that's just never why not why can't i assume it this is my assumption when i was watching okay well i mean you can but in terms of good writing it's not an example of good writing example of bad writing if fans have to come in afterwards and try to create fan theories to explain something that is an example of bad writing i i don't think i think there's a example by who where is that uh where is the definition of bad writing is that it that hands down or is this your opinion so you're so wait okay okay so you're so are you taking the position that fans having to explain something after the fact is totally fine with good writing even if it's not explaining i'm not having to say anything about that i'm saying where is the definition of what bad writing is because from right now this seems like it's your opinion of what bad writing is not the definition of what bad writing is well obviously so well but you're taking out you're taking a non-position you're saying i'm not saying it's bad or good writing that's what you're saying right now and you want me to find something which is obviously subjective and based on individual preferences exactly and that's what this entire debate is about it's so then what's the point of having the conversation if you're just going to say well it's all about talking about anything if you're getting down to it but what i'm saying is and the majority of fact i agree the prequels are not the best written but i'm saying what your your argument is that it's bad writing but you know at the end of the day it's just your opinion of if that's bad writing or not well that's why we have to nobody is nobody is requested so far because we've just been working with with that that what has been given but like what qualifies as good writing would be something that i think stich and i talked about before this do you remember that we were talking about um what qualifies as good writing because i think people want to hear some sort of functioning definition for us to go well i want to know what your definition of it is so that way i can figure out the parameters of what you're trying to argue i'm trying to look at what you agreed on yeah no i generally good writing generally is something that engages the audience draws them in emotionally is logically consistent is not lazily written does not it's not filled with plot holes or plot inconsistencies is not cause you to question what's going on or what the character's motivations are because when i talked about with glib uh this i understand that to get into like a deep conversation about like what constitutes good writing is a very complicated thing and i didn't really want to spend like an eight hour debate on what constitutes good writing and that's why we i've been focusing mostly on direct contradictions between characterizations and plot holes and things that kind of on their face you say okay that doesn't make sense things that are never explained or don't make sense for the other things that you sent me or directly contradicted and we were trying to say that as you're saying as these seem to be most non-subjective criticisms that most people can accept the face value the other things obviously should be brought up as well now i don't want to be i don't want to lose the argument over good writing based on the subjective objective dichotomy i think that we can agree to some sort of standard now who sets that that is going to be difficult so what we just said was like the plot holes inconsistencies and and things that don't make sense now bettering the characterization of a character when we're talking about someone like maul giving more information about these direct actions would be a net benefit to the movie right forgetting how we do that the idea of just understanding a little bit more about why maul wants to go after jedi then focus on his mission just a couple lines or a scene would that be a net benefit or a net loss well that depends there's give and take to everything so what i made the excuse for when i watch the movie is that george wanted to focus on a b and c instead of the other things which is why you don't get those lines and it's also because it's leading up to nobody in the movie knows but us the audience knows who palpatine is and that he's eventually going to become the emperor so when i watch it it doesn't bother me but that could just be me what do you think sitch about what i was lost in the conversation um what i what i was saying is that it obviously a little bit more information from the character would be better for the movie yeah of course that's what that's all i'm saying and i thought i thought everyone agreed that yeah we could be better to have more characterization from all to understand his motive his motives and what he's actually thinking and what's going on now no and in the in the interrogative i just want to quite say like we're not sitch and i have never in this conversation suggested that we should spell everything out what we what we're noting are things that are lacking when it comes to translating the writing into execution things that could be more informative you spell everything out there's like an hour long debate about droids and how they work well the the problem that we had with that is that when there is a detail that's going to be created by the plot that's referred to as a check off's gun and that has to be checked up on the what what happens is with the check off i just just hear me out here because when you introduce a check off's gun as a plot mechanic that's also introducing world rules for world building and you have to be consistent with those rules and some of the rules are that are that star wars got away with in the original trilogy don't apply anymore once the new information and the prequel trilogy was introduced things like and stuff like that like for example midichlorians changes the context of what the force is so now that there's new information that's introduced we have new ideas about the other stories i think we all understand that right well that doesn't really tell the originals go no it doesn't but what i'm saying is is that if now that we're introducing new characters in the prequels someone like maul that means that we have a new check off's gun that we should elaborate on and have all of his actions lead up to the point that his death is and all of those things should be logical right and there are there are decisions that are made in that process that we've been pointing out that haven't been logical or fleshed out and to me that would be good writing how was what happened not logical like with maul one of the examples that we were talking about was when my problem with this okay because palpatine this is my problem palpatine specifically tells maul that his motivation should be to get amandala back to nebu to sign the treaty that's what his boss tells him maul comes shows up and doesn't do that and i'm sitting here wondering well wait a minute is this maul directly on purpose contradicting what palpatine's saying because he has some alternative goal or is this just bad writing because george was because thought it would be cool to have darth mull fight quigan and he doesn't really give a shit what the reasoning is for that's what i that's where i'm hung up on and so when you make the assumption that well darth mull actually has this deep character and he cares more about fine than jedi blah blah and i said well wait a minute none of this is shown in the movie to support that claim and if they did it would make his character more interesting that's my hang up but can't we not how to make this argument um so we already have palpatine as a maul villain of all of star wars correct like you're both talking at the same time i didn't catch that okay so let's look at there's different types of villains correct sure okay so we have palpatine who is the mastermind of right all of star wars right even unfortunately the sequels okay so then you also have one dimensional characters that are bad guys that just want to kill good guys right uh not not i don't think i don't know in any of the star wars movies is there a guy whose soul motivation is just i want to kill a good guy yes it's darth mull that's never established you just want his actions right if there's only there's only two a couple of lines like a lot you know he wants to take revenge on the jedi but what i what i'm trying to impose here is that good writing would appropriately dole out enough information for us to have uh an understanding about why maul does his what he does now this is external hold on a second this is this is totally external the rules of what we're talking about so i'm not going to count this doesn't count as what i'm saying but i find it interesting that the clone wars is so beloved by fans and that's mostly about what i'm talking about what do you all of the backstory stuff that i'm that that that that as a counterargument to what i'm saying i hear from clone wars fans but but what i'm saying is that we we flesh out the characters through going to these other formats like the e you and the clone wars and stuff and stitches and stitch and i's argument is that a little bit more of that information in the prequels instead of in the external information would complete the characters well that's not even my argument more that's my argument you can have darth mull be a completely one dimensional character we just want skill jet i have no problem with that my problem is that the movie doesn't establish that and we see darth mull directly contradict palpatine and palpatine doesn't call him out for it so i don't know as the viewer is this a fuck up on george's part or am i supposed to mind read all a bunch of stuff that you're talking about that you don't see in the movie he does explicitly state that the only line he has in the movie as far as i know is the he at last they will have revenge and in reference to the jedi yeah right that's to me that outline palpatine says tells him to do when when your boss tells you to do something and you don't do it why is it and if you're saying that mall's motivation is that he doesn't give a shit about that command whatsoever he just wants to go jedi why isn't there the scene that shows us that that shows palpatine saying oh you fucked up this mission or whatever well he died that was his fuck up no that's on naboo that's on naboo he's he's on he's on after tattoo on tattooing does he call the boss until yo boss i fucked up do you does he need to do that or would a bad guy not tell his boss and then just try again later oh this is stop stop stop stop i've just i just checked to see palpatine literally says to to mall move against the jedi first then you'll have no problem capturing pad may oh there you go right how is he supposed to capture pad may if she's does it don't irrelevant irrelevant irrelevant irrelevant irrelevant it's no no no no the order is to go for the jedi first wait hold hold on a second hold on a second the whole point stitch if he can trace the ship if he can trace the ship it doesn't it dude it doesn't matter you're entirely you're entirely if you're if you're entirely appealing to the orders that palpatine gave to mall these are the orders that palpatine gave to mall to move against to kill the jedi and capture pad they i think we have to i think we have to concede on that point that that's the line let me speak because he wants pad may not to reach coruscant that's the entire fucking point of him sending mall after her so when she's literally no i i stitch i think that they have a good point because he needs to follow his plan he decides to eliminate uh quagon before he goes after the ship however i also think that it's it's not i still don't think it's good writing oh what was my argument sorry i think you're that that it was not palpatine's plan for pad may to show up and do the vote no confidence that that just happened and palpatine was just was just moving with whatever was going on and absolutely was sent there to get palpatine but he would have had you know if he's gonna pad may he has to kill the jedi kill the queens yes royal royal royal party whatever the hell you want to call him and then you know i guess higher up take him back to his ship and fly back to tataway up to never excuse me and can happen he feels quite gone and the ship's already fucking halfway to coruscant is it well i honestly i think i think that i think that there's a lack of clarity on on what the next step from all is after that point isn't there uh just this is so simple it's just so fucking simple all we needed i was just some explanation of the scene that's all of what maul was doing and why that's all it was let me propose that let me propose that we don't under we don't we can't assume what is happening to maul after the ship gets away right and he has sure but i'm not talking about it no i know but i'm saying that there's still issues with the way that it's delivered can you give an example there because we don't understand what i'm saying is is that if maul had put a tracker on the ship or something they can just track this ship to go anywhere right or is it or does he know we already know that maul traced the ship so he can obviously trace it again i suppose can he intercept them at coruscant yeah but it's already too late then yeah it would be too late at that point isn't at the point so so isn't isn't sit still technically have points in his favor by saying that being distracted by quigon he failed to track down padme before no no matter what he's fighting the jedi first okay not only that so i also have to think though that palpatine did he needed padme to get to coruscant and him being sitious he's very manipulative and he plays both sides so him sending out dark maul to eliminate the jedi was his goal he needed to get rid of the jedi maul gets rid of one not the other but with padme coming to coruscant not on tattooing not on motion what not on tattooing he he failed he doesn't know he failed he failed he but he still delayed padme getting in there so padme gets there she sets everything in motion for him to become the supreme chancellor then when they go to naboo dark maul finishes his mission and he gets killed but at what point in the story does palpatine want padme to show show up at coruscant he's playing both sides that's the whole thing of him being sitious and palpatine right so he's playing both sides that's how he comes in comfort because he manipulates everyone but i'm saying what what point in the movie does palpatine decide he wants padme to show up on coruscant when he palpatine not sitious so we're getting information from both sides that's a story plot of scent doll just the people in the movie don't know it what so confused i'm asking you at what time what point in the movie like at what event in the movie does palpatine suddenly decide that he wants padme to show up at the senate when i'm sorry what when he's palpatine telling her he she needs to go before the senate and that she so then why would he want so you're saying three objectives wait wait wait you're saying i'm telling you i'm saying that palpatine wanted padme to go before the senate once she was already on coruscant right because you were implying scenes but from my memory of this movie palpatine wants padme to go to coruscant to fix everything with the trade federation and to get the vote of no confidence right but as sitious he's trying to do the opposite because it's a way to fool the audience for those that don't know who the emperor is and that's kind of the reveal in revenge of the sit for those that don't know that haven't watched the prequels it's a plot device and i say we know if you watch the originals you know that he's both people and that he's manipulating everyone so when i say palpatine i just mean sitious i'm not i'm not talking about what his fate is the same person you can't separate them they are the same person he's the same person he's using he has multiple motives but at the end it's going to get him to the same goal no my my intention here is that anomaly is taking the position because a lot of people complain about the the prequel saying palpatine's plan doesn't make sense because all these things had to exactly happen perfectly and anomaly's response to that is well that's not true because palpatine didn't necessarily know that padme was going to show up at the senate and that wasn't necessarily a private plan well i'm not arguing for formally i'm picking this argument because this is my stance i'm not going to speak for another person i'm trying to agree with everything up until uh you saying that um palpatine wants her there um i again for that okay everybody's robotic to me yeah i'm sorry ana what did you say i'm sorry um i'm going to switch to zoom moller no it's it's robotic i don't everything's everything's robotic for us moller well everything's fine to me i can hear everyone clearly so can the chat we're the only ones that matter right chat okay time it's fine the only i'm trying to establish is that you and an anomaly are making very different arguments okay and i'm just trying to line right he's just trying to establish palpatine slash city is went did he always want padme to show up on the senate or is that something that so at some point the movie let me let me see if this answers it so i think your your your contention is he simultaneously wants her to sign the treaty but also get to know the senate to argue for the vote of no confidence the way it seemed to me and i maybe i need to rewatch it to check is that he's happy for either of those things to happen because they should both lead to a vote of no confidence eventually it for different reasons different sort of through lines you can use both of them to get what he wants one way being that naboo is a system is under duress signed over to the trade federation you could probably get anybody to to push for a vote of no confidence in valorem that that allowed to you know take place simultaneously if she's he's just found out on the radio that she's come back to carcin he's like oh fuck um hey padme just go for a vote no confidence in valorem like for everything that's happening in naboo we were working off that was i mean does that answer that or because obviously i've just made a different argument to anna and possibly anomaly at this point i just you know just try to keep track of what i was trying to walk down i don't understand what anna's argument is i don't understand what your argument is i think i think overall the point is i think the overall thing is that anna's saying that palpatine's playing both sides simultaneously smaller i think what you were saying is that both sides of the plan appeal to palpatine and that even if what i'm confused about is the contradiction of getting her back to naboo to get the treaty signed and then also playing off of what he's doing what she's doing in course on however i think that plays into what mauler was saying that it still benefits both so i'm happy to concede with this point having heard exactly what palpatine's orders were that's my perspective um i gotta partially disagree with mauler and anna on this i i agree mostly but um where i differ is if i i didn't think he wanted her there at all um if he didn't wouldn't have sent dark maul to take it back to oh it's not that he wanted her there it's that he's going to use it if he can well i mean uh well i think he did because he needed her to make the plea of no confidence he needed her to go up against the chancellor necessarily um it could the vote of no confidence could have happened either like for another party um or on his behalf possibly but um again like if if she got there and he didn't and she didn't put the vote of no confidence he still would have been in water um i think i'm pretty sure it was meant to play out as naboo gets attacked um she signs the treaty bb gets killed or perhaps they just under naboo for everyone and then palpatine makes his case um whereas with um my darling making it to naboo there's always the chance that um my darling could uh you know bring you know bring bring the republic through there and could hold the trade federation and their plans all be right as rain um whereas cast the manipulator now now he has to improvise um which is why i otherwise he wouldn't have sent risk exposure from off maul um going off to the Jedi and hunting them down and then essentially kidnapping or taking her back to naboo um so again i don't think i'm sure he was like again he's playing by side defense i i have no doubt about that but like i'm like on the stand did not intend for it to get to naboo and like when he got there that was when he had like his poker face and start manipulating like he had to improvise as opposed to it's all going according to plan um but that's where i differ but i mostly agree with both of you that's yes a little okay um kind of next point next point where are where are we is are we finally at the pod race or by the way um i have this the uh uh here's the scene i was referencing huh in regards to what anna oh i sent you the scene so when uh uh he's talking to her when they're on course on already okay so yeah okay that's fine so the only reason i was asking is because it sounded like you were using that as an art as a defense of why maul would prioritize the Jedi on tattooing before this over Padme is because Palpatine already wanted Padme to show that course on yeah that makes that actually makes sense i think he wanted either either or is going to work out for a savior when i was talking about that i was more mostly uh arguing the maul point not the Padme point okay well we can move on from there yeah i just uh this isn't really an argument just a little uh you ever noticed how um i go in and uh annie can uh lean to the ship when it cuts away from uh doc maul yes um when he gets stuck yeah that's actually in a deleted scene um you get to see you remember that old lady who uh tells annie to get inside because the storm is coming there's a there's a there's a there's a cute little deleted scene where he actually farewells that woman and like it kind of lends i mean i'm not counting it i i really i'm really annoyed that something well yeah i mean if she if she stays out there while the sandstorm is going on she's gonna get ruined i thought you were gonna mention like doth will kill there or something like on his way back to it why they're running in the first place it was going to be like so unnecessary why would he do that he says goodbye to her and like it reinforces me when the child went i'll never tell you but um it shows like you know he was a slave there but he meant a lot to certain people like he was the local boy there and now they got to say goodbye to him um that that that adds a layer of depth to him and he's doing then what happens is the local boy um anyway then a probe droid uh sneaks up on them and quaggon cuts it down and then he's like quickly we need to move again we're being tracked that's why when it cuts back to them actually running to the ship it's okay that makes more sense yeah that kind of question is why is like on like ditching jake in the desert from tarth molesters no that was just a little bit of connected tissue cut out um but you could dump it down he just senses a something looming in on him i know that whenever dark wall shows up he tries to ram anakin randomly anakin get down i don't know it does well as a thing with kids fuck it ate some um anyway i just you guys are all robotting i missed all of that next up next we moving we move we with this train of rolling yeah what's next next point can bring up is um palpatine when when padme shows that palpatine keeps saying that the senate is too corrupt to help her so why would calling a vote a no a vote of no confidence in the supreme chancellor help at all if the the senate's too corrupt to help her wouldn't they just elect another corrupt person in his place i think the idea is that valorem could be doing more like pushing for specific orders or even votes but he's too passive and palpatine is like oh i see if we had someone stronger we'd be able to get things done faster even with the the rabble because well first of all he as she says he's been our strong supporter he's the one that sent the chedi and when she goes and talks to the senate about her being invaded then there's that counter motion that we need to send some investigation you know committee to investigate the claims or whatever um she does say that he's this one of the strongest supporters whatever but she's also the one that decides out of disappointment to suggest he get replaced no i understand that what i'm saying is palpatine is playing up the entire thing like the senate is corrupt against you he's i don't i'm trying to remember i don't remember the exact line he whispers into her ear on the senate meeting when uh when they're the trade federation diplomats or whatever you know call their counter their counter measure okay he's like there's like this they're all corrupt in the the pocket of the trade federation or whatever the fuck he says so i'm asking why does she think then that getting rid of the supreme chancellor would help at all if palpatine keeps feeding her this idea that the senate is entirely corrupt against her it's one of those situations where i'll just make a second um it's one of situations where palpatine knows the senate better than madala and she trusts palpatine as the senate representative of naboo she doesn't want to do it and this is where you know the emotional conflict it comes in because she's she's pat queen of madala padme is very loyal and uh you know uh the estimate comes these sort of things uh so when she's willing to essentially you can see the look on her face like when she's essentially paying someone in the let me move to for for a just reason mind you um she's essentially just taking palpatine's word that like you know this is you know if we keep going this way uh nothing's gonna get done more people gonna die he's playing her obvious no i want to i want to make a i want to make a point is playing padme i completely understand it i'm saying is that right the the the way he's deceiving her doesn't make sense and she should be able to realize it doesn't make sense well but here's the problem the stitch this is the issue is that the the conceit is that the context that we're given because we have to review it that's part of the writing is that it's a what a 14-year-old girl before the senate basically being the one that's recalling an entire galaxy's leader and that's really stupid well anyone i thought the whole point was anyone can uh call for the vote of no confidence that's a leader of a system yeah but the fact that we have a civilization that allows for this kind of thing to go on is really stupid and the and i'm i'm sick of i'm sick of acting like i'm i'm sick of acting like a stupid civilization is good writing okay they've talked multiple times about how the everything is corrupt and it needs change i don't think it's right but i would say that in the defense of the system that if you're a republic with this many worlds then recognizing the political legitimacy of every planet is a part of that and if they elect a 14-year-old girl to represent them then they do yeah and so so the fate of all of this is going to be some 14-year-old girl you say that but it goes to a vote it doesn't just it's not just yeah everyone decides if whether or not they're gonna do this idea is going to actually happen and the reason why armadullas go is so important is because she is once a valorem or valorem is advocating for her and she has lost confidence in him the vote carries a lot of weight in addition with you know the accusations and the uh you know the the the turmoil surrounding her client's predicament uh provides sympathy for her team play it works in both ways it carries credibility but also um the predicament carries sympathy if anything the issue is that i want to know who this 14-year-old was running against to where they chose her she's people are saying in chat she's the phantom and his credit thumb book yeah but there's also the boo isn't a real planet dude come on okay it's a it's a it's a space wizard movie for kids i forget that's clearly not what i said okay no that's that's what i'm getting from that's what i'm getting it's like of course that's stupid they're corrupt i'm like uh-huh baby's first fucking science fiction film what no i'm suggesting that there's gonna be a set of rules on the boo that don't reflect earths well i understand that i'm saying the rules are unreasonable it's not a movie about space wizards directed at children but every i can probably do something say that every uh you know government on this planet is corrupt in its own way i mean can you all agree on that it's it's it's detailed looking at a movie where they have a corrupt government that's believable sure but you don't know no i'm telling you i'm fine queen amadala's election i'm fine with the senate being corrupt okay that's not my point my point is how does how does amadala think this is going to play out if palpatine's telling her the senate is corrupt and it won't help you so why would changing the figure head of the senate suddenly help her if he keeps telling her that the senate is all corrupt well she's gambling right she's gambling on the fact that maybe the next person that will get elected would be better and would be you know more enforceable of you know dealing with these kind of issues because the guy that was up there he was pretty docile even though he was on her side he was getting pushed around by the senate so she took that gamble it's like when you're playing blackjack and you have 15 are you gonna get another card or are you just gonna stay like that you know she took a gamble and she was being manipulated by a sith lord she was on the clock message the gamble right but the promise the gamble is worse than it was before because i would assume you know that it seemed like it was better no but what i'm saying is she should know that if if they're gonna if the senate has to send some party out to go look at naboo or whatever we assume that wouldn't really take that long of time because of hyperspace travel it could just fly back and forth but now on top of that she's adding a whole timetable of well now everyone's got a fucking vote on a supreme chancellor that's like the worst decision possible she's slowing the process of helping her planet down substantially and then she voted against the only thing that would help her plan it out which was going and investigating so she's stupid which just is more evidence that this civilization that she represents is also stupid for electing her on an entire axiomatic level and that to me is just what i'm assuming yeah i'm assuming George Lucas's point is not that had made stupid in that everyone in naboo is stupid i'm assuming this is just no but his point his point from uh to have a youthful leader of this country is that like the innocence of young people will lead us to the future or something like that and i think that's naive and i think that and putting that in the story is naive i know this is my subjective opinion right you can take that however you want i don't think that's good writing i understand that but i i think at some point we have to contextualize the fact that this is the only science yeah if any if anything the movie is saying that as a result of her naivety palpatine gets what he wants why do we have to boil every political organization in this culture in this world into its stupid and incompetent and can all easily be manipulated by this one person whose plans are not actually that complex i'm so confused by what you're trying to say that the senate voted on it she just suggested it right but the senate has no information about what they're they're they're they're doing a vote of no confidence based on what wait wait that's not that's not super important what's up you understand that at the end of the movie so after the conflict's already solved palpatine shows up and says oh they like to meet supreme chancellor so that means that had made getting rid of the the old supreme chancellor added that entire timetable to the vote for the senate to finally figure out what the fuck is going on in abu and she should be aware of this you wait you're saying that sorry what do you what are you saying that i'm saying that okay the queen is asking for the senate to help her planet okay they're saying well we need to send some committee to investigate the crimes so then her response to that is well i want the senate to elect a new supreme chancellor and i'm saying that's really fucking dumb because now however long it would take the senate to investigate your planet to see if you need help you've now added however long it takes for them to elect a new supreme chancellor on top of that i assume she would consider that addition yeah i i figure she would consider that irrelevant by the time an envoy gets there confirms the invasion gets back confirms it with the senate and they do whatever the her plan is already going to be completed could lead to more uh bureaucracies she doesn't have the plan to go back she doesn't have the plan is to go back to get the help from the naboo to fight and to free naboo so and someone is going to go to the planet like that that was what they said somebody is going to go to the planet go assess the situation and come back so this is before she decides to be the one that goes so that was it she's not doing it she's not doing it on but on the behest of the republic she's just doing it because she doesn't just he knows the senate is not going to help her that's why she's doing i know i'm not i'm not addressing that i'm saying that before she makes the vote of no confidence there is going to be someone that's going to go to naboo assess the situation and come back and report on it to the senate and that's why she gets upset yeah because as far as she's concerned it'll be too late by the time they do all of that right but so how okay i maybe it would be too late so then how does calling a vote of no confidence and chancellor we're just gonna make that she does it you remember the scene right she does it she doesn't do it in a way that's like aha this will work it's a depressing moment of he has to go he's useless so she so you're saying that she's just doing it because she doesn't has nothing to do with helping her she just does it well it's going to help her in the long run but i was gonna say yeah if anything it'll be helpful for the system as a whole and she doesn't seem to like she's reluctant depressed but it's the right thing to do as far as she's concerned so she decides to make a vote for no confidence because the guy is not helpful in any way shape or form and so voting him out so while they're doing the vote she's going to go to the planet and take back her planet if chancellor velour i'm realized that there was a vote of no confidence against him wouldn't he spill the beans about the jedi thing and say no see i really was doing something so he says i was elected no she says i want this resolved right now i was elected not to watch my people die yeah so she probably wants the lorem to be like we have to act now we have to send people to help naboo as opposed to then i've then i'm saying that there should be a vote of no confidence so this goes so she's saying i want help now and if you can't do it then there should be a vote of no confidence which doesn't make any sense because that's she's not gonna get help now then well she's gonna go but she concludes that once he decides he's not going to be sending he's not going to be forcing anything other than envoys to go there no i'm saying after the whole they're not going to they're sending in a committee thing that's when she says i want help now and if you don't do it then i'm saying that there should be a vote of no confidence which doesn't make any sense why not because she's not going to get the help now and you were just making the argument that this was a long-term solution not a short-term solution well she makes the decision in that moment to vote no confidence so while she goes back to nebu and does it herself they will get a new leader so when she comes back there's going to be a new and probably what she's gambling for is a better leader than the one that they currently have i mean it's it's too late by then so it doesn't really matter what doesn't really matter sorry you're cutting out if she's already she's already solved the conflict on her own then she doesn't need the senate to solve the conflict for her well but if you remember by the end of the film she thinks she thinks the palpatine being elected as high the chancellor she says something like i hope you can fix the senate like she thinks is a great thing that he's there now right afterwards but her primary concern is to fucking save her planet right which she is then going on to do in the next scene when she decides what to do but the vote of no confidence is only going to be helpful in the long run anyway in terms of the senate and how everything operates no i mean when she was told for the vote of no confidence she didn't have a means of fighting back it's only after she has that talk with jar jar or she did that um again because she felt it was the quickest way to get action done like i you know in case you guys say the talk with jar jars after the scene of the vote for no confidence yes i don't i got just in case you guys are thinking of saying like why should she go back to naboo she already made the vote she's probably she's found a quicker way to make action the vote has already been done paladin doesn't give it but this is palpatine's like all right i got my vote if i go back to naboo is killed i continue i i still don't see how this is justified as good writing guys i think i'm gonna jump out and jump back in because you all just roboted and i didn't understand anything you just said so i'll be right back all right so i'll just read the exact line to her and then we can move on because we're just going in circles here i admit amandala says i will not defer i have come before you to resolve this attack on our sovereignty now i was not elected to watch my people suffer and die while you discuss this invasion in the committee if this body is not capable of action i suggest new leadership is needed i move for a vote of no confidence and chancellor valorian's leadership so she's saying that she needs help now so moving for a vote of no confidence doesn't help her now well but she just established she just established that the whole reason that she needs help now she's not getting it is the poor leadership so whether or not it actually facilitates her getting help now or in future he has to go is her point so it but do you okay but she has to weigh in her mind what's the most important thing and i'm assuming the most important thing is the safety of her planet so why further slow down the senate process by adding in a supreme chancellor vote on top of them trying to investigate well it would make no difference if all is gonna happen no it doesn't if all is gonna happen is they vote on an envoy and then they all agree and the envoy goes to confirm that there is an invasion only to come back and tell the senate and then they vote on something else in exchange as opposed to we elect a new chancellor who could immediately commit to action i don't see how the former or latter is definitively faster he already well he is the lorem already sent somebody well the jedi the lorem already sent the jedi yeah that's a point and and and and then every time i've made a point about using evidence it's been like invalidated for some reason i'm like everything that could help any of these conversations that's in the movie that could be available evidence just not it's just not in the movie for some reason characters don't speak up for themselves for lorem just gives up it's like a vote for no confidence it doesn't require any cosigning it's she can just call it out wouldn't wouldn't a senate that had a vote calling for a vote for no confidence and one person can just say it all the time wouldn't that just happen all the time how many impeachments in the united states senate would work that way we have no idea how common that is we see it happen once we don't know that they may have an immunity for a year or two and we have no idea right but so that's part of the problem is that we don't know if the supreme chancellor can just say well fuck your motion trade federation i believe that they're at war and i'm gonna help them that's not even presented like that's something that he can do a movie that's contingent on all the political actions in it we're told in this conversation that those details are not important when the entire thing is about a trade dispute when it's about politics and as much as people want to say that it's a kid's movie those two things don't go together and as much as somebody wants to say it's multi-layered and one thing is is distracting you from the other thing if the if the logic isn't there then it's invalid that there's so many statements and steps that characters could take that are logical problems and we're supposed to defend them because palpatine and the force will it to be so and those are the genie i've not i've not said that i'm not saying you said that but that's what i've gotten from this conversation i'm sorry if i'm strong i don't remember the force will part coming up i remember i remember the the major of the majority of the plot being an any plot hole that is a major thing that's connected to uh something that was contextualized i heard that argument argument from rick earlier or an anomaly can correct me if i'm wrong but a vast majority of events can be said to be the will of the force if not then there are a dozen logical inferences that we will then we never really we never really a we never really established what the rule set was for what is the will of the force and what isn't so if we don't have the will of the force then there's a lot of logical problems there's a lot of a lot of why building problems even relevant to this part of the conversation because because the point is because the point is anybody bringing it up about this this can be explained very quickly again you wonder why it takes all Texas armor dollars vote again armor dollar is the person of interest right vote carries a lot of weight because she's she is calling up for a vote of no confidence in the very person has her back oh she's turning his back on him now okay yeah but they don't they don't believe they don't believe her they don't believe her they don't believe that what she's saying is true so valorem says oh we need a committee and then there's no admissible evidence that was sent to her that was able to be presented in court they didn't call any testimony or witnesses he's the only one who does believe how this is a functional senate he's he's the only one who does believe her and he and she is the one turning on him this is a huge weight that's a huge plato because if no one believes Padme and no one believes Naboo then how the fuck does this conflict generate sympathy vote for palpatine how did we conclude that no one believes it how do we conclude this yeah if anything they just that's what the the council's anomaly just said that anomaly just said the supreme chancellor is the only one that believes her i just i was the strongest supporter which is said which is said in the movie yeah i was just under the impression that they don't why don't why don't they deploy the the galactic army to go defend the republic because it's not unanimous the senate is clearly in disagreement over it that's the whole point but it doesn't matter because they don't have an army they can't do anything there's no way that an entire galaxy of planets don't have any foot soldiers to be able to make use of do i have to bring up the the opening crawl of the attack of the clones go for it right let's see i'm looking at right here so while i was looking for that but the problem is if the senate doesn't believe Padme right they don't believe her without a committee or whatever why would they then turn around and vote for palpatine who would be seen as the person that represents believing Padme i don't know that we've concluded that the senate don't believe her i think that all we can conclude is that they're torn on the subject here's the attack of the clones thing senator Amidala the former queen of nebu is returning to the galactic senate to vote on the critical issue of creating an army of the republic to assist the overwhelmed jedi implying that the only thing that exists as a recourse to anything that happens to the republic is the jedi as an army of the republic is different than an army of individual planets from pieces of the solar system or senate's whatever and so why then didn't Amidala directly go to any local planetary system and barter with them make any deal with them with their individual units because it's not in the movie because she went to nebu the closest one yeah right but what i'm saying is that nebu never reaches out to any allies because they don't exist in the movie that's not in the movie well aren't there a blockade blocking communication yeah but regardless there's no there's never there is never an attempt for there to be any superfluous army that does not exist in the prequels at all there's no evidence in the prequels in the phantom menace to show that the federated the galactic federation the galactic republic has an army so would you just just so we're clear would you these are would you say these are two separate issues before we proceed the fact that and i don't and i think that there's a meaningful difference between the fact that there's enough people in the senate who don't believe her but want to check clearly so because they want to create a commission and if that happens they will need an army of some sort i just find it amazing yeah well i know it's more of a plot it's all connected to me but it's all connected to me because it's because it's like you have the trade federation right because we and by the way connecting we can't just say oh it's happening in this one movie so it's not connected to the other movie because we're being contrived about the fact that all the other movies are connected as part of one story so that makes the whole story have contradictions on a larger level an additional detail from one of my members um so it was double checking the vote of no confidence in it's the trade federation who are the ones who suggested the committee and palpatine states that it will be filled with their supporters because of the chancellor's weakness why would she believe that if the chancellor has been supporting her stronger than anyone else he's outlining uh well uh he she trusts palpatine over chancellor because she he's her senate representative on yeah in the committee um yeah but he's the guy that sent the jedi to help her though he knows she's like frustrating to me that the jedi the jedi don't talk to each other like hey did you know that that that that we tried to get killed yeah because they actually go to the the jedi council and try and tell them the information and they don't believe them either nobody believes anybody in this thing about anything that's been a thousand years they're all incompetent okay the jedi do believe them the jedi do believe this was discussed earlier they do they don't no no when when quigon and obi-wan go in the beginning they don't believe that it's a sith lord mace windu specifically that's different from believing there's an invasion yeah right and then if they're the only ones if they're the only ones that are able to defend the galaxy then why don't they just go do it by themselves who's going to say no to them we don't know they're the only ones who can defend the galaxy well we don't know anybody else that can so but this is more of a plot hole with with attack of the clones than it is with the phantom in us well it's a plot hole that they establish that there's apparently no republic army but we can't argue against the negative having a republic to establish that there is an army having a specific republic army is different from having planets support each other when each one is given any kind of grievance by another but we don't you're saying that each individual planet that's why it's so controversial in attack of the clones that they're trying to establish a republic army because it's like oh shit that means the whatever the republic decide is right that army is the iron fist behind it as opposed to planets helping each other out the EU army yeah that's why it's controversial yeah but there's no evidence that there's any any thing that's going to happen out of anything in the senate that's going to have a physical effect against what the trade federation is doing there's never a sign that there's any forces that can engage there's never a sign well so i imagine that the senate would agree let's say they did the envoy the envoy came back and actually said look here's photos video it's happening there's an invasion then the senate can all vote on whether or not they're going to send help which they can do that's they're all gonna have that's not it doesn't matter if that's not in the movie doesn't have to be in the movie it doesn't need to be in the movie i for me to understand that there's actual recourse and stakes in the movie you have to say that there's a military that the republic has otherwise we're back at the republic doesn't have a military why don't they have a military they the republic doesn't have it but the republic is made up of all of the systems and planets where where uh that are a part of these are just reasonable inferences these are all factions planets systems army the gun guns have an army it's a reasonable inference but any whatever i don't see how it's a reasonable inference because the gun guns part of the republic are they just living in the boo i don't know if they are but the brags point is if they have a fucking army the the the the slug people who live under water have an army that it's more than likely but the the planets in the senate are gonna have fucking garbage in the senate the senate so the senate never comes out and says we will send a un peacekeeping force or we'll send the jedi they never discuss it so are you saying that you think it's a reasonable you think it's more reasonable to infer that there are just no military presences on any of the senate planets no i don't think that this movie is reasonable that's the that's why it seems like that in the movie isn't that weird it doesn't make any sense just i just think this is so weird like of course they're gonna have their own armies we agree that the i certainly would agree that the movie's writing would be much more strong if they just had it would only take one line about the commission will potentially oversee the creation of uh for a defensive force to be sent to da da da da or there's a million ways you could have done it it could have been a throwaway line that would have solved the issue sure and if someone says like in chat someone said he doesn't have an army he's like this is this i think so we might have confused the EU and the UN someone might have said something but the point is like that's why it's so controversial but i mean if we're gonna go by logic that exists in this real world there's so many stupid decisions that are made in this movie like the idea of the gungans having an army that are gonna go fight out in the field against a bunch of droids when they have a swamp like that's i'm sorry that's a nitpick that people are in chat are gonna hate right they yeah and they're a warrior race that fight with shields against blasters and stuff like yeah just we can get into the gungan stuff i guess if we're just gonna move on from this stuff well i'm just i feel like we're missing we're missing the construction that i feel like meets the standard of an interesting and complex logical world i don't think that standard is met by the prequels i think that there's a great overarching meta plot that has to do with all these complex uh plots that palpatine proceeds with but everything that is around that is overly simplified and explained away because there are everybody that's involved is somehow either clouded with their judgment it's the will of the force or they're somehow incompetent in an unreasonable fashion you can't make stuff references to the EU and the UN when that stuff is not in the movie oh these are just analogies you're running away like analogies before they had to do the military and that didn't count either you gotta come back to to where we're coming from right because like i said we can go you can infer one of two ways one these planets have their own militaries that would be utilized in the possibility that the senate declares that a planet is under attack and needs defending or fine or that all of the planets just don't and that's just not a thing which one do you think is more reasonable the problem is that naboo has but i don't want to assume i don't want to assume i think that it's bad writing for them to not tell me as rags said having a throwaway line to strengthen this would probably be absolutely for the benefit of the prequels but it doesn't mean it's an impossibility and don't does not uh doesn't say was an impossible i didn't say you said it's an impossibility right right yeah he says that we have a volunteer peacekeepers or whatever he says yeah sure it's called star wars we have to assume that there's a military and then they don't go into the idea of which militaries would be responding and unfortunately no matter what they do in the senate there's never a point where another military from a planet shows up to confirm what you're saying waller i think what glib's point is that it just seems contradictory that in the first movie the conflict is very centered on naboo trying to get military help from the government from the republic and then the next movie is the republic doesn't have an army apparently we didn't know that in the phantom s now we know they don't have an army and they're arguing about creating one so it's kind of like well what the fuck is creating a specific republic army which is what the clones are they they go where the senate tells them they pretty much go with the hope chancellor tells them to go which is part of what makes the third one so dark so is the implication that the republic if they voted to go into you know get involved with the naboo trade federation thing is that the republic could then order another planet's military to do what they want i imagine that the planets would be called upon to help the ones that can the ones that would vote to do so this is different than them having their own there's loads of ways this could go i don't know i don't know how it works specifically yep but why why is it that we have to vote for oh it was it's just not going to happen that way it just wouldn't happen it's like why is that one the reasonable one i don't know why i have to wait what do you mean i don't understand what you're saying like the idea that some of the planet's votes or all of them do on which planets will help the ones that can the ones that will the ones that have already agreed ahead of time that they will move when told to whatever all these different options like oh you got to infer all of them it's like yeah but all of them make it possible while the only one that doesn't is if we infer that there are no militaries or that they don't do this which is one of the very few options i'm not no wait i'm not inferring wait we're not the only implicate we're talking about the movie is well written i'm not saying what whether they have an army or not i'm saying the movie does not present that they do and then the next movie seems to contradict that they don't you keep saying that we keep local planet has their own the response every time is there is a difference between a republic army and an army that is set on each individual planet for each individual right you don't have evidence to back your claim maul are you only an assumption and i hate to say that but that's the way that it stands it would be neither do you posterous to think the other way yeah that's my whole point out of all the millions of different scenarios only one matches your issue while 99 match mine saying that i know and i'm sorry i think that you're still making your your assumption is well i don't know you're preposterous in almost impossible i understand that i more i completely agree with you but i felt the exact same thing about the sequels and i don't understand what's different about this just because please relate to the sequels what we've just been talking about do it i'm curious well what i'm what i'm trying to figure out is why you would assume that the that all these planets have militaries when that's not in the text that's not in the the the script that's not in the the dialogue and all i'm trying to say is that good writing would have one of these solutions doesn't have to be mine like i don't know if they said it we already said okay yeah i'm for it it's still reasonable to assume that yes i understand that but i also assume i did the same thing if you would hold on a second i did that was reasonable then we're done okay but listen when i when i watched return of the jedi my assumption after that was that there would be some sort of republic that had an army that had a force and all these different things they would track down the imperial remnants the next movie contradicted that what did sitz just say about attack of the clones it contradicts that so i understand these are two different hold on seven reasonable or not no exactly but what are you but it's also but why is it why is it reasonable then that the the there's a clone army in episode two that needs to be raised because we don't have an existing army if you're suggesting that there already exists an army no because he does because the senate doesn't have control over all of those individual armies the whole point is that the clone army was specifically going to be controlled by the person who got emergency powers because of this orchestrated episode one naboo plot okay and now is that in attack of the clones is there detailed things where it's like we have militaries already but we don't have a unified military if they didn't or if they did it wouldn't matter to his plot right his goal is to have a total that it the whole point of his plot is to have control over all of the armies but he can't do that if he doesn't have an single army that's designed specifically to obey what the senate says i understand that but i don't like i don't think it's good writing that palatine is the only smart guy i i understand that you the the assumptions could be made but then when the attack of the clones plot point comes into it which is part of the same overall narrative of six movies being together because this is the debate if the prequels are written well not if just tpn is so my point stands there's no evidence of any kind of militia or security force other than naboo okay so where is there another military besides the galactic republic if you can't say there's no security force that we don't see we know that we see other than the naboo one we see the senate guards okay fair enough so that's most of the planets in this film have security forces on them okay and then that brings up a further point where amadella never thinks about petitioning to discuss anything about that with them if those forces exist they're not considered yes she doesn't explicitly yes that's correct we're not our my point is only that these forces exist in this universe and i would be contraint about that point but then you get to my next point in the line you would see what i'm going with this there's a point that i've contentioned about yeah why doesn't the queen talk about these forces explicitly why doesn't she go to the actual individual planets to petition to them something on behalf of naboo instead of going to the senate which clearly doesn't have the ability to deploy the military as a unified force anyway why not just go to a different channel because because she gets there does she not go to the gun guns she goes to the gun guns but what about other planets that actually have formal military she doesn't know about the gun guns military until she's incredibly strapped for time okay but she's at the capital she can discuss things with the senators from other planets to get reinforcements when she goes back to naboo and specifically if you have a reput if you have a senate and the senate says we're going to form a commission to see if all this is actually true which is going to be to decide what their next course of action is and one of the members of the senate then sends their military force along with her ahead of this commission to attack anyway you don't think that would create immense problems i don't know what the consequences for any problem is in this movie other than the lorem can lose his power or you know blockade seemed legal which doesn't mean it all comes back to the red tape the tangled nature of the senate that's like the whole point of the prequels that that leads to what comes next palpatine's able to take control of all of this and i'm saying that it would be good writing if they had established what those rules were so that we understood what the red tape was actually about and not just assumptions based on the weakest amount of dialogue and information because that's what the prequels always does is it handwaves information that is relevant all the pieces of days have to put them together really i understand that that doesn't make it good right lots based on the evidence that is given to a conclusion really just depends on how much heaven is there is like uh for example what's example when uh palpatine not wanting uh a pattern made to get to not to draw back just palpatine not wanting to uh padmate a reach present he occupies the he tells the trade federation occupy the city to get away he sends off more after her to keep her away from the boot that's my evidence for what i would assume is palpatine not wanting i mean to get there right my evidence and i can assume even though he never explicitly said i don't want the senator to reach uh i don't want the senator to do a case for the senate or the queen to put a case for the senate right i'm not but i'm saying you can assume certain things based on the evidence you have it all depends this is where discussion this is why discussion is important it's you know our job as people in a discussion to assess the evidence and determine whether or not the scenario is feasible and everything happened to be exist phases are there you've got to put them together and say we agree that this uh you know this is feasible that we can assume sort of happened well this was the intention based on actions the characters took lines of dialogue said and the order of events right but but the contention is trying to piece out what is what do what can we the audience piece together from the writer's intention the script and what is simply plot holes but then we after the fact try to make it work right that's what we're trying to parse in this conversation so like just so what is the what is the plot hole specifically that you're referring to why no we were talking about glibs point for like 10 minutes so i don't know what and i just left and came back so i don't know where the conversation was kind of lost as well i was like i wonder when were you referring to the plot hole i mean we all over the place yeah right well we were to ask my point was about the hole that didn't make sense for pad made a call for a note of vote no vote of no confidence but i don't want to we did that for like 30 minutes i don't want to reopen that conversation so we can move on totally good we're moving on to a different point oh i am too as am i um i miss next point would be that all quigon and obi one seem to care about when they talk to the council and on course on is whether anakin will be allowed to be a jedi they don't seem to care whatsoever about the naboo situation and it seems like the only reason they even go back with pad may is because of darth mal and to make sure see if he's a sith or not um and i'm pretty sure i mean well the jedi are at the command of the council of war and would have appointed the jedi councils and two of their nights to redo their that affair sanctioned um and as discussed the commission would have been sanctioned that's it that's another problem um oh uh yeah i mean the the their their job was to get armadillo to the senate aren't out of their hands and they gotta let the politics do their work i think in is a quigon's main business and not to mention darth mall so of course that would be what their priorities uh you know that's what that that those points would be their priority to mention their their dialogue and conflict between each other you know the conflicting ideals of each master and student um a quagon being the rebellious uh defiant master as opposed to obi one being the uh you know by the book's obedient mostly obedient student right but doesn't it seem doesn't it make our jedi who are supposed to be these like you know empathetic peacekeepers who are thoughtless you know i mean not thoughtless but they don't care about themselves they only care about helping other people it seems weird to mean it makes them like dicks if once they show up on uh course hunts they're like okay bye nally portman you go deal with all that shit we're never gonna discuss or be concerned about what's happening on the boo and whether all those people are dying we're just never gonna bring it up hey i mean what we didn't really get to see uh you know what their reaction was to that i mean like the the council brought it up to them and then they sent them away i mean like not the jedi do have to abide by the council i'm sure quagon would have um all they know if his actions are anything to go by he is uh he would have happily gone back with them at least if a safe i'm a dollar safe um and tell us it's our pleasure to join you once again what went on the lane pattern i'm not the council i'm not the council i mean i'm saying that the chain the chain was the lauram uh appointed the council who appointed two jedi they have seen like and and the later movies confirm that um the jedi take their orders directly from the council i think we can that's the evidence and i think it's feasible that we assume yeah i am fine with the idea that the council was okay with the supreme chancellor's secret jedi negotiations right yeah no my only point is that it seems really weird to me that the jedi themselves and the jedi council don't care at all or empathetic to the plate of the nebu whatsoever which we don't see them talk about it all they're supposed to be the guardians of peace and justice and when they hear that there might be a war going on in nebu they decide to do nothing we don't even know what they do they don't even talk about it they have a secondary goal of uh you know this there's a sith lord or suspected sith lord out there and um he's we know he's after the queen but you're gonna join her on on her trip back to nebu uh yeah flush him out if you can um i don't think there's anything wrong with that we didn't really get to hear the jedi's i mean we get to hear quagon uh express how uh well i'll uh what's the word i'm looking for excited it's supposed to live but how uh oh it i'm just looking for the right word um it's not that he's happy to be along for the ride again but is more than happy to protect armadala when he sees her again on the landing pad he tells her that he says it's our pleasure to protect and assist you once um beyond that we don't really get to see and i don't think that's a flaw at all just you know that's not what the plot was um was the main topic for a conversation they know that she's going back and something but they have their own motives and need to flush out dark more somehow which is also why they don't um send all the jedi back with them possibly because i've heard that excuse like they could have sent like i back i don't think dark more would have shown himself they sent 20 jedi back uh there yeah excuse me oh um yeah but if they sent two they can draw out the queen's attacker yeah but shouldn't that be addressed especially when we when the one fight we see that quagon has with darth mull after the fight quagon's breathing heavily he's pretty tired and it just seems pretty silly that after mace windows says we will use all of our resources to unravel the mystery and discover the identity of your attacker all he does is say okay you two go back and just go with the queen with no backup but they weren't expecting uh amadala's drastic move for one they weren't expecting her to go back to naboo i'm in second no no no they were expecting mal to come and attack uh the queen again she was she was she was essentially safe once she was she was there yeah no i'm talking about yeah god i'm saying um right no i'm saying mace window originally says we want to use all our resources to unravel the mystery of your attacker and then once yeah yes and then once uh Natalie portman decides to go back to naboo mace windows like you two just go back to naboo and figure out yourselves he doesn't help them in any way he doesn't send more people to aid them especially after quigon had trouble fighting this guy already and it's having what do you mean um and i was just addressing and as my um oh yeah she's having trouble uh hearing us apparently we've we've changed region already so i don't know if it's that we could try again i know which u.s west wow outy outy yo oh my that was the biggest ever i'm sorry yeah i think it's worth stating that my my major issue here and specifically to chat this isn't about if the prequels or sequels are better whatever it's about well written and my problem is that there's so much potential in all these ideas and all these concepts and what i'm doing and i'm not going to speak for sitch but what i'm trying to do is i'm trying to establish that there's all this space that could have been fleshed out that was not fleshed out and because of that we did not get movies that i felt were as quality as the original trilogy that's my major argument here sorry if i'm getting like i wouldn't make the argument upset about it i don't dislike anybody here so i i apologize if this if people are getting heated again so well there's one person who i really don't like well i saw i'm sorry about that oh what oh what oh i was gonna leave an ambiguous and have you discussed amongst yourselves uh i just figured it was me um um i don't mean to cop out here by saying this but um am i wrong in saying that the prequels tell a much more ambitious story than uh uh the original trilogy there's the scale what it tries to tell on characters i agree 100 yeah i'd say generally probably yeah the scale is certainly larger i'd say the cast of characters is certainly expansive definitely a more complicated story an attempt maybe that's how i would phrase it it's an attempt at a more complicated story and on top of that there's all the expectation going in that we've already had this and maybe we want more of this or maybe we want something better than that and that's always difficult so if there is some expectation and subjectivity in there that i'm fully willing to admit that my my issue is that i feel like regardless of whether or not we're fans of it we have to admit that there's errors and when i if we bring up the ot or the sequels we if we're really trying to be objective then these things apply all the way through there's i don't want anybody to think that i'm not a star wars fan or that i don't i don't even hate the prequels that's the point i just want to point out that there are there are ways that it could have been better and that it wasn't of course it's it's i don't think anyone would say they they couldn't be better the issue that i have is that well written and an exceptional writing is really hard to attain and there are moments that the prequels gets almost there but there are so many jarring issues with it that create caverns that the overall problem the overall tone that i was trying to explain before is is jarring and that turns off a lot of viewers now some people can get into it and that's subjective and i feel like there's there's aspects of where people are coming from that have to do with when they were seeing it for the first time what what order they saw these things in uh ancillary material like the clone wars and clone commander and all these different things clone commando i mean republic commando but like all these things come into play and what what i want to stay focused on is just the ideas of the logic and and what potentially could could be considered exceptional writing pros and and and planning and logic that has to do with the thought process and the characterization of these characters i don't want it to be contentious that these things could be better or that people think that i'm just shitting directly on their souls for liking this thing that's not my intention i don't think anyone would disagree they could be better now i agree with that and well then i'm sorry for getting heated about that i want to bring that i want to bring myself back down it's okay i disagree i want to shit on your souls bring it now okay okay are we ready to move on or was there anything i don't even remember what we were talking about what were we talking about um regarding oh that's right uh why does you i don't care about naboo i'm pretty i'm pretty sure they very i'm quite sure they do carolese anakin and obi one too um because you know it's uh yeah obi one and padme um a friend's an attack of the coins because of the events and they uh they've had uh dealings with each other so to speak links but you know they've uh they've been on the same they've been allies at one point and they have a history um that's what i'm asking i'm asking why don't we see a scene where kwai got nobby one or like we have to help the naboo and the jedi council is like we can't because the senate's tied our hands like there's no scene like that they just don't even talk about i mean i what it's the thing like when when the naboo we don't really get what's i mean we don't get a scene because it's really quick like um madala decides to go back to naboo and the same night anakin gets turned down and the council orders them to follow we just we are not saying some of the it doesn't exist we can we can absolutely the jedi would be more than willing to help um but they do need the okay from the council and what the council is point of uh point of discussion for the council is anakin to be trained obi one possibly taking the trials and uh the you know the revelation of darkmore which is very alarming um it's almost you know it's almost like it goes without saying that they'd be more than willing to to help armadala in life um there's enough evidence and you know especially kwagon's um you know kwagon openly uh committing to moral gray actions rather than just be following the code they wouldn't would have been more willing to help he even tells her it's his pleasure to accompany her uh on her voyage again when they leave so i'm not saying it couldn't benefit from the scene but you can't assume based on what we know about the characters despite the majority of the internet but it doesn't have any character traits which is just awful bull but this is part of why people have that feeling is because we don't see the scene where kwagon argues with the jedi order to protect the nimble i think it all has to be inferred or imply we don't see any of this stuff does he have to argue for the they've given him their their permission no no they're they're only the capacity that they're sending him to do is to go deal with darth moe it doesn't seem like the jedi council cares at all about what's going on in abu either beyond darth moe well there's why did they said why did they agree to send the jedi um his secret i don't know we don't know that was for the abu when they wanted to help settle the dispute when the senate wouldn't it's of course they care that was a supreme chancellor who sent them if anything but again we counsel agreed with it but i mean okay but it seems like it was his you know he was the impetus that that sort of got that ball rolling because the on the ship they addressed the jedi as you know the the supreme chancellor it's not the jedi councils we don't mention that the jedi okay with it i mean it's a really it's reasonable it's reasonable that the council is all right with it absolutely i i wouldn't i wouldn't say otherwise but it does seem to be his thing does seem to be the um the chancellor of a lorem who set that up in secret i mean like if you're referring to when they're docking in the beginning why they don't refer to him as like a jedi council's ambassadors it's because you know they're meant to know that they're jedi correct me if i'm wrong i don't know how you hide that i mean they don't really have to hide it once they're on board they just have to yeah i i feel like if the supreme chancellor is sending people regardless of whether or not they're jedi obviously the senate is getting involved in this it is reasonable the trade federation would think all right the senate is getting involved in this and i think the fact that they're jedi only makes it worse especially when you look at you know the nemoideans reaction to when the you know the the the droid says that it thinks they're jedi okay um uh where were we going with this i'm sorry i don't actually know i i'm just sort of i think the point was that it's just the jedi don't there's no like line where the jedi come into cars and they're like yep the invasion is real to the to the jedi council and it's horrible and that uh hopefully something can be done in the senate you know just some the it's almost like it's not even on their mind or that we skipped over the scene where they would have discussed it because it's i don't know if you like it i would agree it seems odd it's almost like naboo's not even on their mind really um you'd think you'd just have the moment where they go yes master the the invasion is in full force we were there we almost got killed you know i don't know just something it feels odd that there's just no uh recognition of it i mean we could have skipped over it he most likely told him that but then he like the uh the story the whole story and then it cuts to the scene where uh he's he's fishing up the story and then the story is about dothmore i mean like he um imagine he wants to give him a full debrief that um the reason we need to see the scene is to address the problem you talked about where people say well i feel like quigan has no characterization these are all reasons why people feel that way there's plenty of characterization and he bends the rules there's compassion when needed like he didn't have to and this plays into another problem you're likely gonna bring up when anakin gets tagged along we'll get to that because i know you're gonna bring it up um where he promises shme that like he will look after anakin personally like you know he's down on his shoulder and he tells her like you know i will always show over him as best i can um i don't have to do any of this he does care the fact that he was protecting the queen the whole time on the wing you know it it's kind of implied that he's more than willing to go back to nebu and that he would be willing to help like so there's plenty of evidence to allow us to like assume a character's motives by this point or less but i'm sorry were you saying that that was the reason why he brought anakin to back to nebu was because he told her that he'd watch over anakin i mean um any guess well partially that's one of the reasons um george i mean and george has confirmed this on the audio commentary as well like this was his intention um basically he needed anakin to tag along part of the pod race sequences he was setting up anakin's piloting uh the whole movie uh in various different ways the pod racing was to show that yeah you know he had quick reflexes and knew how to handle like a cockpit like you know basic cockpit fundamentals um not to mention when he hides in the again we'll we'll cover this bit more in a sec obviously um but like he hides in the cockpit and then are two autopilots and gets him into some takeoff and get there himself um not only that but uh quaggon takes him along because um one the jedi won't take him two um he he told uh three actually two he told to me he'd look after him personally and three he can't explicitly train anakin he's willing to bend the rules again he says okay i can't train you but watch me and observe my movements observe my mannerisms um again i'm paraphrasing um that's just before he tells him the metachlorians so i don't think i'm not to mention quaggon is very sure of himself as a protector so and not to end quickly um getting into the palace wasn't meant to be that difficult because um that's why as soon as he is inside they essentially take they take the sewers and then they take the back way in and once they're inside anakin is always his priority until he finds a hiding place you know i mean like there's a lot of pieces that anakin's that spot um again i'm i'm saying it's questionable he'd take him there that's um i think it is character consistent my only hiccups i've got two hiccups one is that he could have left him with the gungan uh women and children so he wanted to take him and two was uh they were going there to lure out darth moor oh right not why you want a kid running around with your death i'm trying to be fair here you know i mean but again he just wants to get it's pretty evident quaggon wants to get him inside and get him safe as quick as possible so that he can like be away from them but safe while he takes care of business because once they're inside they're just meant to as soon as they get the viceroy the game's over for the federation um so don't take the kid with you to the war zone like i said there's there is some connected tissue there to for why he's there and again that's a consistent just quaggon i think he can protect anakin say yes and but i feel like i think he's probably thinks he's in the hands of the quaggon protecting anakin is a problem of of their own creation because if he was in like the jedi temple or whatnot then he wouldn't have to be protected by quaggon well he's not allowed to be at the jedi temple because he doesn't get there's got to be somewhere on karsten that he can leave him he's got to be able to stay in yeah like well not all parents are responsible i mean again he is the jedi lost and the jedi have been known to be full of themselves and he probably thinks um he's suspected and he like one to fulfill the prophecy you think they'd offer him a room for a little bit well could me can you stay with the palpatine yeah palpatine yeah oh that would be an interesting plot role where palpatine raises him hey what if what if he gets rejected from the jedi and he just hangs out though be one but palpatine's the one that raises him because by the way what happens to uh what happens to people that are rejected by the jedi order because they're too old but they find out they have forced powers to be protected by quaggon wait maybe oh maybe that's what they do they say if we're not gonna train these kids they could be dangerous so just send them all to active war zones and we'll see what happens i'll start itself out yeah like um you know i i think it comes down to character because would quaggon do this um and i think i don't think it's completely unfeasible because he did allow the queen to tag along and uh consistent in the sense that he he put him in danger earlier with the pod race instead of alternatives no uh consistent with uh you know uh jedi looking for some jedi um cockiness of uh sure of himself as a uh you know as a jedi master you know at the same as he showed off to mannequin when he cut down darth maul was that the plan you know he wanted to yeah i know i was being i was being i know um but i i do think that it's i think it is tough to argue that bringing Anakin into back to naboo when there was gonna be a big fight in the sith lord whose planet was to draw out especially with quaggon knowing how insanely strong the mediclorians were on this kid that he'd want to sith anywhere around him well they didn't know darth maul was going to show up there their plan was to draw out darth maul that's that's true but there's always the possibility that we wouldn't have shown um however um yeah but that would be that would that would be a lucky that that would just be pure luck that their plan didn't work i mean they're either yeah either way it wouldn't offer an advantage to have them there i think the best the best like can't wait sorry that screen um yeah can you hear me still sorry yes yes wonderful okay um i think i still think the best uh argument against quaggon bringing there is that he could have left him with the gungan women and children because they wouldn't they went on the battle so they were in the they were hiding in the swamps um how is that different than leaving him on course on i think they're gonna leave him with uh you know he he didn't even know what armadal's plan was going back to naboo yeah as far as he knew the gungans were not on good terms with the the people above so why they would accept this favor i have a solution how about you get shmi skywalker to raise anakin on course on and then quaggon can visit him in secret and train him right but that would take place later right that'd be like after the naboo situation has settled sure but right but we're just talking about like what is the logical reasonable motivation that quaggon jinn would have to take a small child who could be the chosen one into an active war zone where a sith might show up and kill them oh just to yeah just to clarify like i think we all agree the whole reason he's there is to do the spinning and then the blowing up of the thingy right that's why he's we have to script reason yeah no i was just i'm hoping we're all on the same page for that so the the writers have to be like so how do we get him there and as far as i can tell they did zero work they were like i don't know quaggon just takes him it's like oh i think we can all agree it's not a good idea to take a child to a war zone of course i think we're all in the same way with that yeah um i think it would have benefited from an extra scene of like them contemplating leaving anakin behind or actually my my you guys said this is one of my revenge of the prequels vids um is that uh a better scenario because like i think the gods will not bring us up and i sort of mapped out the alternate scenarios that could have been done to achieve it better i think if anakin like sort of stowed away with them yeah i mean uh he leaves him with the gungons and then like he's like okay anakin stay put and then anakin stows away for whatever reason he's like what are you doing here and he's like okay fine we get inside you find a safe place you stay there you know i mean yeah i think that'd be way better no way but but again i i do disagree that very little that no work was done to get him there because uh again quaggon has allowed the like a Padme to accompany him he knew she was the queen um to accompany him into tatooine i mean that he would be fully capable of uh protecting her um it's a little different all right wait he knew he knew she was the queen did yeah uh um he even teases her multiple accounts george george had been put on a little commentary what's the um just out of curiosity what's like the how do you how do you tell as an audience member that's subtle but like when he's like um he's never when when uh Padme's like uh are you sure we should trust a boy we hardly know the queen or not approve and then quaggon's like the queen doesn't need to know and then like as he walks in he sort of stares back at her like over his shoulder then early turns his head back forward and then um at the pod race when she's calling him reckless and he's like queen just trusts my judgment young handmaiden and then he points his face right up close to hers and he tilt to say he's like we should too and yeah that's that's him messing with a essentially like luke's confirm like like i was i was gonna say i i could go either way if someone if george had said he didn't know george said he did know i i could believe both yeah that's yeah he said he did well he didn't act surprised when she came out in front of everyone and said that she sure yep nice i wanted quite a small age i was like yeah okay i took it i thought obi let me i'll go look at it i thought obi was definitely surprised i don't remember what quaggon well i remember quaggon wasn't because i remember being a kid and noticing that when i first saw it actually i thought that um actually didn't quite cross but i thought that she was actually um i knew sort of like who's as the queen like this is gonna sound retarded but i was five so um she was posing my original interpretation of the scene was that i fully believe that she was the queen i thought that she was actually covering for the true queen which was almost the act was the imposter because she wasn't doing a terrible job at like smoothing over relations with the gungans well um that's how i originally took it but like i didn't i didn't notice uh i saw quaggon obi once smiling at each other i saw um i'm not sure what i saw exactly but i saw like they were definitely like sort of like i took it as like they were grateful that she stepped in but again i understand what the scene is now obviously because i'm older i understand i was five again so i mean i don't know if you want to i don't know i mean i don't know it's really contending this i don't think it's really a major point but you know when you watch the scene it's very subjective up in the air because quaggon jinn and obi want to kind of have like blank expressions and i would say quaggon even looks like slightly puzzled but then they look at each other and smile you're not yeah like i hear one smile is you could call it like he's smiling because he's like huh she finally revealed it to everyone else or huh that was here wow exactly yeah like i could go either way it doesn't it doesn't really matter it's just interesting to think about i guess okay okay but yeah like when i'm bringing it back to him anakin along like he has a Jedi monster he's like rebellious against necklace ensured himself again he's he's he's he's he's done you know bringing the queen along for example i know it's a bit of a different case scenario obviously he's done that much me that he should look after him personally and he uh also said anakin if you can't train you strictly speaking i'm gonna you know you're gonna tag along with me and you're gonna watch how i do things um yeah for the entire time that anakin is there he's quaggon's number one priority until the end so i think i think there's a lot of work being done but it's not perfect and it could have benefited from an additional scene again the the stole i would have made one the the fact that anakin being there is such a huge plot point and it isn't just a little detail is because anakin accidentally wins the battle for everyone and saves the whole day so it is it's him being there is a huge issue and he shouldn't be like it could have benefited from that great because it's called subtlety molla like i don't know maybe it was too salt and also he's the funny thing about george there are some instances where he's incredibly subtle like i'll give you an example um in revenge of the sith when uh did i mention this before uh track me a point out to me if i have the else in sleep anyway um uh when uh apetine's giving his like empire speech for example uh for the first time like uh we're gonna be a we're not gonna be a republic anymore we're gonna be the empire well he's given the speech and he needs to cut with anakin dicing the separatists uh that's uh that's an homage to the godfather lucas said on the commentary oh how about you know the baptism scene like uh right right right there's there's some subtlety and not to mention uh capolo is lucas's mentor so there's that um there's a couple of shots that were like an homage to indiana jones like the landing where they like sort of like it starts off far away and it slowly zooms in on the cockpit as they land fresh land so that was an homage to india but then there's like you see the fireplace scene attack of the clones where it you know i i've read the i've done the commentary and i understand understand the intention um it feels it's ripped straight out of shakespeare i have trouble acting with it because it just doesn't feel like star wars anymore it feels and like the inspiration is is not subtle enough it's jarring very jarring well that's that's how we feel about jar jar's presence in the movie when you could have had a character that was a little less obnoxious i mean i i i i suppose that's it's kind of subjective again i i like jar jar and again i i again watching the movie recently inspiration for this for a sum like one or two bits where i was like uh it's a bit much um the rest of it i kind of chuckled that and um or i just did it just didn't bother me you know he steps in poop and like yeah whatever i like when he does the tongue thing and like scoop up the apple he kind of lightens the mood but then the tone uh rose back to being serious for the rest of the scene. I'm just confused why why the kid presentation was the priority of the movie when that's kind of the different that's that seems to be at odds with this more serious story that he's writing that Star Wars is more known known for like all of these world events and stuff are suddenly thrust in the hands of a 14 year old girl and a little kid and and the there's a character that is kind of like a Bugs Bunny goofy character that's a cartoon that's running around that to me seems to be a vast difference from going from the Kurosawa C3PO and R2D2 relationship about the two comedy characters and then the rest of the characters being kind of quippy but the the original Star Wars movies were handed out very seriously and that's why I find it the tonal inconsistency to be a problem that's was my point earlier that's and I can't figure out a way to excuse the idea that it's intended for one audience but has these elements for the for the other audience when they're at odds with each other and that to me is bad writing and I know I've hammered that point over and over again but I feel like there's a lot of elements that are jarring elements in the prequels that are not jarring elements in the ot but I don't really want to get into the technicals because I think that the main reason why people hate the prequels is not necessarily how intricate the writing is but the way that it's presented and we haven't even really gotten into that but that's kind of a tangent that's one um I just I I I feel like Jar Jar while people like that character I think that if they were looking at it objectively I don't understand how it fits into Star Wars previous iterations and that's what makes it bad for me enough but um I really didn't I didn't go into the prequels judging like how compared to the old films I judge the prequels as the prequels or just as movies um and I judge the ot as the big thing I I see when I respond to videos on the prequels is like this doesn't feel like Star Wars and I'm like what do you mean just doesn't feel like the ot and it's like uh granted the the criticisms are very surface level and easy to pick apart um uh but like um at least I mean I granted you guys you and you're giving me a you know good run for my money easily the the toughest people I've had to look like debate online about this sort of stuff so take that for what it is um as opposed to the others but like it's also different doing it live than you know responding to a video it truly is actually back and forth quite nice actually um yeah like I really don't not to not to be too blunt here but I really don't have time for the it doesn't feel like Star Wars I'm not saying that Star Wars what you you provided it when you're once on your perspective but like in terms of like what I'm just seeing is like it doesn't feel like Star Wars I'm like oh you can't tell me you didn't hate you know you hated the prequels like because you had some preconceived notion or Star Wars should and should not be and you you're the one to dictate that and I don't mean like for example um they say we shouldn't have seen Anakin as a little kid or Vader as a little kid I'm like I was only in his program example he said like why is Vader not about us in the Star Wars prequels when in actual out you know we get Jake Lloyd and he gets Haydn Christensen and he's just a whiny kid and he's insufferable and even though there's character reasons behind that that we'll probably get into or maybe not no no I agree with that I agree but my let me qualify just by saying like that there there's a there's a nuance to saying that this doesn't feel like Star Wars like so when we have that 1930s aesthetic that kind of why my republic kind of attitude and the atmosphere and all the aesthetics that are presented in Star Wars in the prequels those are all pretty good the problem is is the way that it's composited together on a technical level usually and the way that there are different and this is my opinion this is what we were just discussing how we can have the serious Shakespearean idea of the senate and how noble this thing is and how old the republic is and all this stuffy stuff but then we can have Jar Jar coming out and go and going hello fellow kids Misa and you're like whoa now if that wasn't jarring to what I was just saying before I don't understand how it's not in the prequels I done it down to uh to context like I found it fine for the most part in the prequels but I get I get what you're saying how Jar's you that's I respect that I had a I should probably bring this up like I had a huge debate with one of my friend we'll play on xbox live and brought up the prequels to him and he was telling me how he gets into the camp he finds Jake Lloyd insufferable and he finds Jar Jar insufferable and I tried to sway him but you know and the debate got heated but you know what he just had his perspective and we just had to agree to disagree and understood his perspective um no so like uh you know it's I'm happy to you know sort of like see somewhat to what you have to say in regards to Jar Jar being um he kind of throwing the tone off a little bit in your perspective a lot there are some instances like okay Jar Jar didn't need to do that um I just don't um I just don't like the uh I'm not saying you're making the criticism uh but like yeah there's you see a lot of people online just say you know fuck Jar Jar he's like the worst character ever when and if you take his obnoxiousness aside he's uh he's actually got a pretty decent through line and arc out the fence in menace with the I enjoy watching the most um what is that arc that you know he goes from this like uh humbling umsy outcast to essentially being the bridge between uh no two two two societies and uh earning the respect of his uh his peers so to speak um I like that and then I'm putting his clumsiness to uh use to it's uh because he's always make something destructive with his clumsiness but then he puts it put that into the context of a raging battle and he's like doing more doing more damage with it I found it kind of uh I would say that if I watched Jar Jar and the reveal was he was the foil to Yoda he was the opposite of Yoda he was a drunken kung fu master that was secretly a Sith that was Plagueis that was Palpatine and he was like that would be the biggest subversion of all time and I would probably love the prequels you know what I mean and I'm I'm pretty sure that George intended that originally and it was just so jarring in the beginning that he didn't follow through with it and wait you you think in the phantom menace that George Lucas's plan was that Jar Jar was going to be secretly evil I want to believe that okay I don't know I can't tell but I'm pretty sure that I've heard a little bit of evidence but I think that's a little conspiracy but I love the Darth Jar Jar fan theory I want to believe it because to me that justifies the idea that there's this guy that shows up it's a coincidence somehow he's always messing up the Jedi's plans somehow he's around Palpatine he's got these yellow eyes like there's a lot of like circumstantial evidence you could put together to argue that Darth Jar Jar exists I don't think I think I'm part of the weird you know part of the the quote not the weird thing part of the convenience of Jar Jar is I don't think he ever does mess up the Jedi the Jedi's plan he only helps them his clumsiness doesn't fuck them up in any way that I remember I just I just feel like him being the comedic relief was detrimental to the story and oh I agree with you a hundred percent before I understand I don't believe the dark dark dark theory I think it's very silly no it is silly but but if I speculate but yeah because that'd be amazing but it's it's totally a hypothetical I work a lot with hypotheticals because I mean it's like it's not negative or positive then it's just like what if to to think about if the thing that we're talking about is one of the best options because that's what we're trying to do as a writer is figure out is this the best option for what we're trying to present right so ready to move on to more things that we can argue about I mean yeah we've got we've got what like another 30 40 minutes of the film left oh yeah I meant yeah I'm out of film left in fairness we're actually making it through the fans of menace piece by piece we're getting there slowly but surely and I feel like once we a lot of points but that's fine once we well whichever ones you want to return to us completely up here it's all on you now I understand we're trying not to be here for a year I mean I'm good I got it I got ours go ahead okay it's only reasonable if we can get Phantom Menace done I'll feel like we've achieved something that's fine that Phantom Menace is a good um it's a good sort of thing I'll start this begins the prequel arc for you Fab yeah more of these I think that if I want to because I have more problems I actually think that the Phantom Menace has pretty good writing in comparison to Attack of the Clones if we're talking about subjectivity in that that's really much harder to argue for and then Revenge of the Sith has a lot of red that means I think it's the worst one and then and I think that between Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith there's this like back and forth if which one is you know equivalent is one better than the other I'm not sure because technically I like watching the the film aspects of the Phantom Menace I like all the the material in it and then Revenge of the Sith seems to have better like understanding of Anakin's character and feeds into it and stuff so I want to get into those things eventually if we're gonna cut this short but uh okay my captain America I can do this all day I'd be happy to revisit oh again as Paul said it I want to discuss Attack of the Clones another time I'd like um I had a question for both of you actually uh and um and Anna too well and all of you actually uh Ranki Star Wars movies the OG6 none including okay I I like I put a new hope and Empire Strikes Back Together and then I put that as better than Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi which I put together and then I think that I'm undecided about if the Phantom Menace is equal to I think it's worse to be honest than Revenge of the Sith um and then Attack of the Clones at the bottom and then I don't even consider the other movies you know right so like I'm I I'm I am firmly this is why I had so much trouble with like what what the hell because I I'm still in the camp I think that anomaly that you're in which is like head canon wise we just want the George Lucas stuff we just want the EU the old video games co-tour I think we all like the same things and I think that the issue is that it's the objective argument that gets people really heated yeah um anyway my preference is the same as Eddie in chat five four six three two one uh that's mine as well as five four six three two one I would say five four six three one two so almost almost the same it seems to be universally agreed upon that Revenge of the Sith is the best of the prequels for the most part I that seems to come up with a good reason for that and the return of the Jedi is the worst of the OT at least you know not necessarily an emotional payoff right of course I just mean you know I also like I also think Anakin's like Hayden's acting in episode three is probably his best acting so it makes it really easy to to supplement into the character because I feel the exact emotions that he's going for that his character actually comes into alignment where an attack of a clone it's a little hit or miss yeah um and uh just point to Anna what's your be able to speak or is um yeah uh empire return of the Jedi new hope and this is probably going to be the least popular opinion but attack of the clones then Revenge of the Sith specifically because I I feel like they destroyed Padme's character in Revenge of the Sith and so because because she goes from being a badass queen and then a senator to crying because she's pregnant the whole movie it's like take a might off or something when bitches be like that man sit around on the couch and cry I agree with you though it drives me crazy but we were like man who's this chick yeah it bothers me so bad but uh I think there's scenes especially Obi-Wan scenes and attacks the clones that get overshadowed or the cringy romance overshadows all the scenes overshadows my my love for Obi-Wan I just want to remind everybody the sitch gave Obi-Wan an F in the prequel oh my goodness gracious and what did you what did you give to Christopher Lee I think I gave him a D didn't I oh my goodness so I will I will revive because this was before I watched the prequel skin I will revise this I think Obi-Wan gets a in in the third one in Revenge of the Sith but is like a D in Attack of the Clones and is an F in the pre in the first one but he's barely in Phantom Manus I love the scene where Obi-Wan and Count Dooku have that back and forth when he's telling him like oh like there's actually a Sith Lord that's in charge of everything Qui-Gon would join me I really like that scene I've seen so many problems you could sort of believe that Qui-Gon might join him I think he would listen to him and if Obi-Wan would have just listened to him and maybe played along for a bit to get information it could have prevented everything from happening well he was weird okay well I don't we're talking we're still in Phantom Manus I don't know if we're gonna get into the whole why that sequence is bizarre but get to it but um yeah I really like that secret that I honestly I think Attack of the Clones is or I've because what I've had to respond to on the internet I've actually had to analyze Revenge of the Sith at least because the majority of complaints I've seen on the internet are two one and two I mean from what I've seen I think Attack of the Clones is the most underrated of all the Star Wars movies it's not the best um no I think we should come back to the topic I think I think um I actually used to rank Phantom Manus above Attack of the Clones but I think it's like what stood above for me like now even though Phantom Manus is my favorite um in terms of like objectively uh I think Attack of the Clones has this when I look at the story and like all the the season sort of melts together um not to mention the characters it just it goes up a bit it has to end though it just wasn't executed very well uh I disagree but um mostly I disagree you like the sand I think it I think it's fine in context but we'll get to that um okay uh sorry back on back on topic um any more uh did you wait did you give your rank water oh oh you want it okay um so yeah he started didn't he gave us or yeah okay so objectively revenge revenge at the top uh Empire do hope Attack of the Clones is in Manus the Jedi okay I love them all but uh yeah I think we're 10 of the Jedi's okay that way okay uh uh so how come when they okay so first of all uh Padme and Obi and Qui-Gon have no plan about how to get through the blockade when they're flying back to Naboo but it doesn't matter because for some reason when they show up again the blockade is mysteriously gone and there's only one droid ship remaining and this is never explained um is it and if Palpatine knows she's gone back to Naboo wouldn't it be uh like you know don't they want them to land so she's like sign the treaty you know that well if Palpatine's plan is to become supreme chancellor and he wants a sympathy vote shouldn't he tell the trade federation that Padme's coming so if they kill her and blow up the ship I mean that would generate a lot of sympathy for him no no that's I mean like um like that's what I mean uh did he not give words to them that she was coming uh prior to I mean I gotta I'm a little bit murky on the timeline exactly when I mean he sends them to transmissions it's a little bit off as to when exactly he sends them um we only see uh Palpatine talk to the trade federation after Natalie Portman uh rise on Naboo okay but he's the first one to learn that she's going back because she yes he is the first one well when they do land the spacecraft though they are they got that the trade federation have spotted it could you could just be dumbed down to they they picked uh uh a less occupied part of the planet to sort of pass through but they were still picked up because Obi-Wan says like when they're landings like you haven't much time we gotta get out of here um when they land I thought they're blockading the whole planet all those ships that we saw in the beginning movie are gone I think I think I think it's safe to say they were blockading feed other than the whole planet because like you know they obviously weren't blockading the whole planet the capital and it's above the capital city I thought I mean I thought that was the whole conflict is that they're blocking the they're blocking the planet Naboo I mean it's a planet right couldn't they if they weren't blockading one part of the planet you could just bring trade in from whatever parts not being blocked and then on the planet you just move it to wherever you want to move it and yeah I think it could have been worth a little bit better but like yeah I mean it's it's pretty obvious just from the visuals that they're not blockading the whole planet unless uh I think that's what the problem is that's a question in the in the first scene we see there's like seven or eight or more of those big donut ships they're all over the place in the first scene and then when they fly back there's only the one and that's the one that's controlling the droids all the other ones are gone no there is it is for what happens as well uh hope I didn't too show too much of that on screen before we get copyright hit but uh he says um they've probably spotted us we need to move fast like it's it's weird that like they can approach it and they're just sort of hoping that they don't get shot down immediately and they're lucky enough that they don't and they just get spotted so it's just so I don't think the ships were there we just didn't see them no it's the there is a battleship there and Obi-Wan points it out and he's like we need to move fast because they've probably spotted us already but it's just weird to me that like they're even able to get to the planet you know right well and also this and also but this this compounds because then afterwards when the naboo uh space force people attack the trade federation ship there's only again the one control ship all the other ships in the beginning of the movie are not there defending the robot control ship yeah I mean I think this is weird as well so pretty big plot hole if I say hole but uh it the scene is conveniently they just sort of land without any trouble as if there isn't a blockade and that wasn't the cause of everything they're just touching down okay yeah I can see there's there's a lot of donut ships uh in the initial part of the movie yeah okay uh yeah also the Palpatine presumably should have told them to blow up her ship if his goal was to become supreme chancellor they still get it to sign the treaty though so it could be that the uh oh actually that's something else I wanted to that's something else I wanted to bring up something I noticed recently was that um Palpatine says tells them tells them to wipe them out like all them wipe them all out um but like when the trade federation corners armadala with the joy because they take a prisoner instead so it could be that the trade federation were defying Palpatine because they still had something to gain from her signing that treaty I think he said wipe them out in reference to the Gungans yeah but they do take the Gungans prisoner so that doesn't really happen I know I said I was gonna bring that up so it's still a seemingly a contradiction and then my bottle that is it is even the robots were like we can't shoot Gungans I mean these these robots are reasonable they're putting their hands up blade laser that's right yeah they're using the bull uh killer robots it's fine uh okay so if we're moving on from there so yeah there's only one droid ship left uh in the final battle is there I'm pretty sure there's more than one ship in now the final battle there's like a couple there's like a bunch of little ships but there's only one big ship maybe that's the one they're all centered around is there are there none in the background or there's none in the back yeah that's an issue yeah yeah I got it up on the screen it is weird I actually thought for a second that there would be there does seem to only be the one donut and it is interesting because does that mean that um if there were multiple donuts that there'd be multiple sources for the droids to take their orders if you know what I mean right that's what I thought yeah um is it also possible that they stationed the droid control ship away from the main blockade to sort of no because that would be like that would make it exposed not protected yeah you'd think they would pile a lot of defenses around this thing yeah yeah I can yeah I keep going and then okay uh let me go down let's see what else is worth talking about uh we were talked about the Naboo people we don't see them suffer uh small well maybe not small but a very weird thing why do the Gungan army ride a bunch of animals into battle but they also have a high-tech underwater city high-tech underwater crafts powerful portable shield generators laser shields and electric bombs but for some reason they still use catapults slings and wild animals and then why do they fight like it's the 1400s or something do they have spears I can't remember they do have little little stun spears yeah they use sling shots or like those little like piled up stuff though yeah but I don't think the staff shoot they're just like pointy they're like stun stuff so you poke them yeah I wanted to point out first that because I think you went past the chronology of where I was um that boss nas only has to be proven that the Naboo needs their help and that he doesn't think lesser of that or the the Naboo people don't think lesser the people that live underwater like it's like a a racial connotation or this cultural connotation that they don't like each other which is never really established on the Naboo side they seem to be like super progressive people so I don't understand what you know what what convinces boss nas other than he gets directly asked for help I always thought it was supposed to be the opposite that they felt like the humans invaded their planet and so they don't like the Naboo so what does it make sense is it even funny when you talk about that when they go to the underwater city and he's just like ah the Naboo or the Naboo's not native and the gungans are no they're not because I never got I don't remember wait to clarify your contention is the boss nas sort of flips too quickly is it old race old race i'll go to singapore see if that fixes it hello oh there we go singapore is back in town would everyone go robot yeah i think hello can you hear me now yeah yeah so it should be better now i was just saying that boss nas um yeah he gets flipped really easily all he has to do is be hello can you hear me uh yeah what were you saying sis you're you're getting to oh i don't i was i don't i'm just trying to so just for clarity boss nas's issue with the naboo is that he believes they think they're better than the gungans and then because they're like please help us he's like oh shit okay fine yeah we are cool if well yeah and then later he says later later quagon says many gungans will die in this and boss nas is like we're ready to do us apart and you're like what do you mean why we're like what was the deal i mean and i guess they're defending really good people i guess defending naboo is a system right like it's their system too yeah yeah yeah but but that's that goes against what in the beginning of the story boss nas's like opinion like the simbian circle thing that obi-wan was bringing up was in reference to the fact that what happened what happens to one of you will happen to the other like isn't that exactly the point that obi-wan was trying to make and i guess it well the thing that made it click was really basic to me that makes it hemlanded sacrifice many gungans for diversion well it's because the naboo's have a side their pride right when padme says we beg you to help us and she gets down on her knees and out they all beg them isn't putting them aside their pride and that's why i guess we'll kill all of our people for your plan that's what i'm saying it's a little bit of a stretch i agree i agree i had a meltdown i had a meltdown on this stream about how every faction seems to be stupid except for palpatine and i'm sorry that was a little over the top but that's like god damn am i sick of hearing that's people are dumb in this scene is a little weird because this is this is a really weird setup because i think a couple scenes before that you show they show the droid army talking about finding the gun gun villages underwater and then rooting them out and searching for them and then that's why the gun guns aren't at the gun gun city and they have to go to the other place but that's never brought up in the conversation of why the gun gun should help the nambuians it's never like oh well we're getting a tattoo so we'll help you it's only this pride we don't like you because you think you're smart in those things which i was saying was just not established if there had been a point where like there you know had may have been like the gun guns have never helped us before they hate us or something like that i don't recall it in the movie if i'm wrong i might be wrong but i just don't remember that being established that seemed to be an assumption that boss nas had and i'm confused about that i don't know i think it's perfectly feasible like because uh with um uh queen armadala she she publicly like it's just her facade and gets on her knees it's pretty like it's pretty desperate and you can see that and uh you know yeah the gun guns are you know pretty clear there are people of like pride and respect not to mention they were driven from their homes from by the trade federation which everyone did warn them about um right eventually happened and sit was just saying that it would have been cool if we had that if that was like laid out there if it was like um had may had a regular armadala speech where she said you know we're in this together and this is what we're trying to get done here and we want to restore your city just as we want to restore our city and it brings the thing full circle and i just wish that that conflict if there was one between these two nations for whatever reason was more established in the beginning to justify boss nas's turn at the end because what you're saying could make sense but it's not established like that there is a conflict between naboo and the gun guns for the reasons that boss nas turns later like why would he assume those things about them what what is the what in the naboo culture gives us that inference that they're at odds with each other when they they don't seem to inhabit the same space um i'll agree that it could have been flushed out a little bit more but um the pieces are all there for them to sort of cooperate with each other she does say the the trade federation destroyed all that we've built so that could easily be considered a reference to the loss of their cities and that she says if we don't act quickly it'll all be lost forever that's very nice something that is that that that uh that does cover her side of it and i i wish that boss nas addressed that there was something that gave him the notion that the nabooians thought that they were better maybe that you know like i don't know what the context is because they seem to be isolationists so maybe that's enough they're just like native people i understand what the idea is i just wish that boss nas forwarded that okay um next point so why the fuck do they not have uh you know land vehicles why do they have ride around on dinosaurs they don't spend a lot of time on land they had ships like underwater exactly they had underwater ship but they ride around on chocobos or whatever the fuck they're riding about i called them dinosaurs went to water they didn't live on land i didn't wouldn't be surprised they didn't have they lacked land vehicles i said you but why do they have land weapons is it possible that they were rushed away from their main do i'm trying to think of like how how common it would be for them to have land vehicles versus water ones when they live underwater i don't know like oh no i i i could i could buy that well they're underwater creatures so they don't have land fighting capabilities but all those animals are obviously land animals are not aquatic animals and they have catapults and slings which would be things you do not use underwater because they work underwater very well so it's kind of like it doesn't make any sense the the latter point i agree with the former one though they are technically amphibious land and water things those creatures they're riding could technically be that too right and we did see them using them to get around the cities underwater it's true the little chocobo thing can live underwater well they live in the cities they were using them in the cities to move right but we don't see if i'm saying it doesn't look like it can swim at all as oh well i mean you know you look at a a gungan you don't necessarily just conclude like oh that thing can live underwater too like i don't know it's i don't look at my hippo and think a hippo is a great swimmer you know if like just looking at a hippo by itself i'm not that's that's true that's no that seems i think that the bigger statement here is that the gungans have no investment in above world technology but they have a huge investment in underwater technology yeah i i their military does seem to be structured around exclusively land combat also almost specifically against droids conveniently yeah yes the dinosaurs with the shield generators are interesting as well because like would they be feasible underwater like can they can they get i'm assuming they work under the water i don't know maybe that's the same tech that allows them to live underwater maybe yeah maybe yeah i could totally assume that um but but my biggest problem i agree is with what's just saying where it's like it's kind of odd that there's that offset idea and the way that it's presented to me just seems conky you know what i mean like we complain about in Game of Thrones putting the the trebuchets out in front of everything and i find it very odd that the gungans would fight in the manner that they were presenting themselves and that doesn't seem tactical to me it seems very foolish to just you know you're fighting droids that are all going to march at you or that's what you're assuming in line battle like it's muskets and they don't they're they're an indigenous fighting force that has short-range weapons you'd think that they would favor the swamps and draw them in there when they're right behind them like the shield was there to draw them in though because projectiles couldn't will blast the bolts couldn't pass through it so they had to get enclosed the droids did but how much how much better how much better would it be in a swamp with the same shield and you just have gungans around every tree and then the waters and stuff just pulling droids down and hitting them because those really big critters move through the swamp would you need them would the uh are they aquatic or not i don't know the would the trade federation have come out to fight if they stayed in the swamps yeah the goal is to distract the trade federation's droids wasn't it like maybe yeah if you give yourself if you give yourself too big of a defensive advantage it's possible the droids wouldn't have attacked them then they wouldn't have me that's my they tell the wooden of nature's like okay they're messing in the swamp well okay if they have those things if they have those things on horseback then they can they can draw in the droids and then do cavalry maneuvers around them in a pincer movement and yeah i you know that the you know we could question some of the tactics i'd say they handle us sort of pretty well it was like an open guild battle zone they do i'd say it's okay and they benefit a lot from the idea that they're there to distract rather than there to win like the so you can actually hand wave a couple of things with that like they're not doing the best possible thing they could do because they're trying to make themselves easier targets to be sought after though i do think that yeah like boss nas like these people like wow you guys you're gonna a lot of you gonna die as a distraction but all right if you know like it maybe it's too dark to have a scene where they like acknowledge how horrible that's going to be and how much of a sacrifice they're making but uh it's pretty pretty huge a lot of gungans do you die in this battle like it's not a battle without cunt and get killed yeah that's the best of poor gungans i always liked that the stall was jaja survive god damn it like like there's an awesome scene there's an awesome scene in the phantom menace where that like they have only one land speeder or something that has like a tank gun on it it's very like 1930s security force or whatever not totally a thing but but they they draw in a tank that comes around the corner and they shoot him with this technical basically that has a what is essentially a a recoilless rifle on it and it hits the tank and destroys it and then it immediately scoots out into behind the wall which is like that's gorilla tactics right there and but then you juxtapose that kind of clever little scene with line soldiers fighting each other fighting droids like i always found it's stupid that people would just the obvious thing to do is shoot droids that are electrical or electronic devices and we're just going to line up and shoot them or something like that that's a that's a recurring military tactic in the colon wars that i don't understand what is that based on i can't think of anything other than 1600s or 1700s battles where they're supposed to march at each other they get there's no nuance to those ground conflicts as far as i can remember um but see she's saying they they see your argument now is just that the tactics they used were well for lack of a better term stupid as opposed to using guerrilla warfare sorry right that was your argument that i thought about it for me no it was just for me okay um i said that was the stitches argument was uh basically uh in terms of like the tactics being used weren't as effective as say using guerrilla warfare correct well it would have was the the the counter to like the idea is that to your diversion to uh because you have to draw out the forces of the empire i'm not the emperor of the trade federation and then into an open field but the the counter to that is that the the droids are actually doing that to the people that favor the swamp environment that are amphibious they're all that's their comfort zone to fight in technically all their weapons favor that environment more than an open field so it's tactically a bad decision now i understand that they're there to be a diversion but what i'm saying is is that when you have uh if you're going to have battle sequences that are like that i think a well written scene would be an example of like lord of the rings or even kingdom of heaven that has the complex maneuvers on the field that are well thought out that actually are taking historical tactics into consideration and the weapons and tools that are available and i'm not sure that that's what that was about as opposed to spectacle of this shield device versus this weapon versus you know because they don't really explain any of it that just seems to be the arsenal of the gungans regardless of whether or not that makes any sense it seems to be just an aesthetic that's put into the movie to favor that style of like warfare without taking into consideration if that's the best option for the gungans i want to know why we don't ever see any of these these these shields ever again well because they don't weaken atmosphere right oh yeah that's right um actually uh quick uh sorry it's meant to uh yeah i wasn't gonna say it didn't work you in at they don't work in atmosphere or out of atmosphere is all right so i'm just joking sorry walker oh okay no no apparently shields don't work in atmosphere it brings up um i just i just wanted to get me curious are we judging the prequels um are we like uh judging the theatrical race or are we judging the blue rice because uh the blue rice makes never can improvements to the theatrical cuts i watched whatever is available in disney plus i don't know which would be the blue raccoff isn't it okay i read the disney plus what they're gonna what else they're gonna anyway um i'll give you an example like an anikin's seam where he's uh powering up the shield when he's like uh crash landed in inside the deep inside the uh the federation starship um he boots up the shield but unlike in the theatrical cut george lucas actually made a deflect the shield like appear above his uh cruiser i don't know if you guys have seen that that wasn't added um okay oh yeah you can see the shield when they get shot once he react yeah i'd be noticed that because i was wondering why the droids don't immediately shoot at him which they don't i could have sworn that was on like the vhs version that i had when i was a young longman the color version that we saw yeah yeah yeah i just meant if it was on the blu-ray release only like it should have been on my vhs but i i have a memory of seeing that maybe that's just a tangled up shit yeah like um yeah the version did you have did you have the special edition vhs version that came out when it was like in the silver and the gold for phantom inus yeah i don't know i can't remember because there's the ones from when it had just came out and then they came out a few years later when they were all out and they're in gold packaging if you want i was i'm pretty sure it was gold okay you have uh i think i think it's the 30th edition but that that's not the theatrical cut then well that would make sense um yeah and i saw that because you mentioned the shield and how to say i was like oh i should probably give that a little mention and yeah just like you know it's cg yoda and phantom inus looks great and uh they've updated the corezins and um they update a lot of cg because i because when i watched it again i was like oh it's even as bad as i remember but maybe yeah i think they did no they did they actually did i think the cg is very inconsistent like some of it's just fine and a lot of it's bad there's some shots of ja ja where he's like not super far in the background but far enough that you can tell they were like yeah we can we can rush that bit and he looks a bit goofy i'll try and find an example actually but without go i don't want to delve too far into other movies yet but we'll probably won't even get to those anyway but i feel like the probably the prime example of this this weird george lucas decision is when an attack of the clones anakin gets captured at the end of the droid assembly line and you have jango fet jumping down from above and he's in the center of the shot and then it shows a different angle of him basically holding at gunpoint anakin to be captured and jango fet is totally CGI when they have the access to the actor in the suit just a lot of weird maybe there's a reshoot and he wasn't around or something it's possible but no no no i'll tell you why why that is i'll tell you why so the reason why that was is that the rags that scene was shot on the fly and actually the conveyor belt scene acts hours to film like all of it and the rest was done in post like so they couldn't i don't mention jango fet comes down in his jet pack in the same shot yeah he sort of comes down a bit yeah but in even even then they wrote him to come in down on the jet pack to be in the center of the frame when he's clearly CGI and then even when they turn to a reverse view uh he's also CGI in that one as well when he's just standing there holding a gun anakin yeah true but like uh like i said like this they they really just film this scene like last minute and uh you think you're gonna have the actor in the suit than the CGI it i'd have to fly i'm in and off and again i could be i could be wrong about a detail or two regarding the circumstances like in the timeline of when they shot it but um i do know for a fact that they they did shoot it very improv and uh yeah george wanted to george spent a lot of time in attack of the con is trying to like experiments uh use you know attack of the con is the first film shot entirely on digital um and the way you see gi was like uh he you know the expectations he set for uh ilm and the fact that they met them in that time period is this i mean if you watch this again watch the behind the scenes footage man it's some phenomenal shit especially yoda my god um but sorry that's enough that's enough me fanboying this one so bring some attention to that i think it deserves credit but uh yeah um what am i talking about fuck sorry um tangent the the CGI the only CGI that really stuck out to me is like awful was in i think it was revenge whenever they would cut to a clone trooper without their helmet on and it was like a cg version of the actor and his face looked all yeah puffy and i'm like why didn't they just get the guy to be in this fucking movie um i feel like there's a lot of technical errors if you actually look close at it i could go frame by frame and point out a lot of CGI oh man when i saw that with lighting and color grading i mean when i saw that in the first time i uh i i couldn't tell because i was really young but i was like i was like something's off about this just just when the helmets were off like if you and if i wasn't told by an internet personality um that's uh all the chrome troopers with CGI i never would have known after watching Attack of the Clones um yeah because i think that clearly wasn't recently that now or even that when you were a kid uh pretty much the whole time and so i was told don't say it don't you say it why don't go there i'm gonna say i'm gonna say it he's gonna do it everybody gets one kill him kill him don't say what i watched these yesterday i didn't even notice don't don't you say it i don't know i knew i knew but by then um so i just um i mean but uh my story with the prequels is um like i've always loved them and i started watching the internet and i thought lesser of them and then you know like it was chris stuckman actually who uh actually my inspiration to start doing youtube so you know take that for what it is i know you guys are too fond of him um yeah and basically what happened was he granted i have to tackle those videos at some point but um he made me think less of the prequels and then i watched the prequels like with a neutral mind post tlj and then i just started really uh just read you know it's read between the lines just cut through the bullshit so to speak like yeah until i saw stuckman's review of tackle they had no idea that they were all cgi clone so stuckman's review was negative or positive very very negative i didn't get so much shit wrong that i could have i'm anyway sorry my boy up or i'm gonna shave you i don't know charlie don't be shaven charlie is a very uh passionate about prequels i mean sometimes i mean there there's parts of these uh there's parts of these movies that are terrible there's some gems in there i think they're buried deeply but there's there's some good stuff in there there's some good stuff in there i said there's more good stuff about the prequels and the sequels don't you agree sitch uh i would say that the the prequels are definitely better than than the last two oh i'll hopefully i could change i could change your mind once i get to my tfa series hopefully i could change your mind i think hands down the prequels are better than the sequels the only thing the sequels has on the prequels is i genuinely have trouble deciding which of the sequels are worse than the others really this all of them are so bad you've seriously yeah when you really look through them oh they each have rising last jedi seems so much worse than of course tfa is the reason everything went to shit like it destroyed the world it packed it into a tiny grave along with han solo and his character that down it goes well i'm not saying it's good i'm just saying it was not as bad as last no i'm not saying that was a counter to the idea that it's a good film i'm saying that's a counter to the idea that it's not as horrific as the other two it's it's got because the last jedi and reza skywalker were kind of fucked in terms of uh escaping the wheel building that tfa provided they didn't help they didn't help at all and this is why i see i see you're saying because it that's up the failure that it's just as bad but like they're all awful they're all so so awful set up failure it does failure to it like if we want to judge the quality of trilogies by numbers of han solos ruined um so the prequels have approximately zero han solos ruined whereas the sequels have exactly one han solos that's true and they do ruin luke skywalker as well so a lot of people argue they ruin layer barely barely even in the prequels they ruined the force they ruined the wheel building for sure we shouldn't talk about it we should move on what's next baby baby luke in the prequels did not ruin luke skywalker that's true yep we'll give you that you have the best acting in the prequels i feel i don't disagree but you know what we bothered me about that though and i know it's because they changed it later but they should have had leia be born first because in return of the jedi luke's like tell me about you know your mother and she's like oh i can kind of remember images and i'm like he was alive a full minute longer than leia and he was like right next to padme's face if anyone should have any the imagery of their mother it should be luke not leia maybe neither of them remembered and leia was just lying well i'm assuming it's just a bottle because that was one of the biggest things i'm almost like after everything else i'm just like it should have been leia she should have been the oldest twin and then okay she had a tiny tiny tiny little baby belly those are some big ass babies that came out of her there is no way she had twins that were premature that were that big ass babies those are details those are those are not fine fine details danger because the danger seemed to revolve around her kids it was no way nine months pregnant did you see how little her belly was especially with twins oh yeah barely fuckable i know um yeah i always always saw that kind of odd i was like yeah she's so ugly i guess go ahead okay all right then um so what was what's the official cause of death for padme spoilers but what is what is the official cause wow rags jumping ahead huh well i mean i lost the will to live rags the will to live yeah lost the will to live apparently that that is apparently that is like a medical condition like i was actually i was actually i was actually i feel like losing the will to live that people without the base died of a broken heart but i'm just like she looked she just gave birth to two very good reasons to live like oh yeah i find that's the yeah like so that's actually not something i've ever heard anyone say before nice i haven't even thought about that i know i am i agree with that boy it's like i can't get behind i love aspects of revenge of the sith but they destroy padme in that movie and i'm like okay girl i did it your your baby daddy went eight shit crazy there's a big old galaxy full of a bunch of men go find another one go right here two babies like oh it just drives me crazy i'm sorry i'm sorry well he strangled her it's like he killed the young rings i agree hungled her like go move on go find another guy to be fair to be fair she should have left him when he killed all of the the people i can't actually can't wait to talk about that because i find that very interesting because like if you i don't want to i'll just foreshadow a little bit like basically um when padme hears it from obi-wan and she just refuses to believe it then she starts hearing it from anakin himself and she's still because she's supposed to be a very morally righteous individual who's like uncompromisable and then she's then like she's willing to uh what's up she's like it's it's she's like people make mistakes dude so that's when that's why i found it he very uh uh in trading about the scene because like there's a point where like yeah like when he says to be angry is to be human oh it's okay anakin we can't do this go back to the phantom menace go back like i'm sorry like she's like boggins uh she's like come away with me and help me rise our child and just leave everything behind i was like wow she's willing to fucking betray everything she's ever believed in for him despite everything i was like but we'll cover that later i just thought that was quite interesting to be fair the world is like crumbling around her she's like all right i gotta take like i'm about to have babies or also how the hell did she want no she was pregnant with twins anakin's got the freaking force how did he not sense she's having two babies did she not go to the doctor did she never put a doctor in an ultrasound like come on it just sorry it bothers me it really bothers me yeah i feel like when you're like you know four or five six months in just go to the doctor and get it checked out everyone knows yep not even like she was hiding it even a few weeks after you find out you're pregnant you go in for like the standard stuff but it's just the last thing about the will to lose before we go back or the losing the will to live i guess before we go back as uh that line doesn't even make sense because after after supposedly she's lost the will to live despite having two children that she should care for she still believes is good and anakin so if she lost the will to live she should believe that anakin is lost and completely hopeless you know see i always believe the theory that palpatine was like taking her energy and giving it to anakin and that's why he says like oh i felt her and she was alive i didn't get that i didn't pick that up at all it's like a fan theory that i saw okay that's that's fair i'm but i just i never got that personally no you know what's that you did they also mentioned it in robot chicken and that was kind of how it went even more viral i don't know because i remember that robot because i was saying the same thing that i watched robot chicken and he's like billions of dollars of technology and she lost the will to live give me a freaking oh yeah i remember yeah i've seen that yeah i've seen that before i like the idea of palpatine doing that i don't know what it means for him in terms of like his powers though like that he could kill someone at will from wherever they are if you know what i mean like damn that's powerful i don't know if we can give him that power well i think that theory after the palpatine or the plagueus book came out because that's kind of what they go into and so that's where that theory came um i was never into the theory of palpatine sucking my life from padman i always thought that was horseshit but well it makes more sense than her dying of losing the will to live when she's shoving babies out of her front so good i can i mean it's it's i mean we can i'd like to spend more time i sort of interpreting it but like um it just a quick little well padman was a good person we're telling me that she's just gonna give up after having two babies again again we'll talk about that i i'm on the more negative side of that i'll say that like i think there's some things to explore with that anyway um in that scene in the same words like for padme dies as uh mask put on him just as the mask seals i don't know if you know about this there's a there's a help me padme uh little muffle he says before he gets sealed into it um you can check it out i've been blaming i tried to listen to it on the internet maybe my speakers sucked because i couldn't hear it for the life of me i turned it right up but then i listened to it on the blue ray and maybe my television speakers have a better sound or something that i could hear and i was like oh shit um it's there it's um i thought it was a neat little detail and maybe that's what uh maybe that's him communicating with padme that's where he tells obi one that was like wouldn't him still i don't know i thought it was neat little detail keep cool little history if you can barely hear it but it's there i promise you well then uh so share some fun facts anyway um it's you got any more issues about the fancy menace that are wrong sure uh why don't the droids so the droid arm okay there's a couple of things first well why don't the droid tanks if you can walk through the shields you just can't shoot through them why don't the tanks just move through the shields and then shoot the gun well i mean there's there is the argument that um you know if the tank moves through um doesn't that happen i mean yeah i remember the droids going through yeah the droids go through the tanks don't go through how does the uh do they sort of creep up as well no no no no because when the shield goes down then the tanks yeah the tank the tanks come back into the fight once the shields go down but it doesn't doesn't really like i don't know why i think i think it would be uh like sort of impractical like if the tank sort of inches through the shield they would have had like all the gunghans could have just thrown their grenades at it so to speak because uh yeah but the the turret very thing is like the long or like the first part that would go through right you could just like literally just poke the turret through it just shoot shoot the gun but you're still you're still could they still could have uh you know called a halo too and you know heighten your dinner vehicle jack and plan the grenade you know what i mean well i mean to get to right what i'm trying to say is like the tank would have to get very close and where the tanks exceed in combat is by shooting like artillery cannon shots whatever from a distance and fucking them up so it would have made the tanks vulnerable to move in so that's why i sent the infantry well but it makes the infantry are just a lot more cost for the infantry no but they cost less they're less game less of a game change oh so they're like new gun rays like don't send the tanks and it's way too expensive if they get blown up just send in this shitty draw but they're way more again they're way more of a game changer they do a lot more damage than the infantry the easily uh disposable and remakeable infantry units that are mass produced i guess i do i guess with the mass produced cheap aspect of what battle droids are you can and the fact that they're not like actual lives you're expending guys like just throw them at the gungans and once they make an opening yeah once they disable the shields go nuts with your artillery i can see it i can i can i can approve that i could see that if that was ever mentioned in the movie sure i have a question why don't they just stick the tank barrel through the bubble and that's what i said yeah right stealing stealing a joke well bring up what sorry bring up the tank for everyone to see i just want to look at the model design i want to see which which which is like is the the cannon the the front most part of the tank or is the body of the tank the front most part of the tank which is going to go through the shield first the most part of the tank is whichever part of the tank is the most front d yeah um because the barrel it swivels on the back i've always kind of dug the designs of these tanks i thought they were pretty nifty they were practical through just if they are they made these and then they uh one sec but they wouldn't make a few suits of cloner okay uh let's see yeah but like let's see that's the that's the that's not like they were too lazy to do it they are that was a choice george wanted it's kind of interesting because it looks as if the the part of the tank would go through first but also the i don't know if they can extend they kind of look like they can't extend i don't know it doesn't it doesn't matter because you could just turn the tank sideways or true true true the barrel and i and i think that the six holes down at the bottom are supposed to shoot like missiles and stuff so these tanks are so theoretically you could be floating outside of the shield and you poke your little your little tism cannon through nobody thinks to to try and hit the shield from the air so we don't know if the shield is like i guess the shield is just too strong for from the air like yeah i mean the shields all over in it so i guess they didn't they only had the drop ships right they don't have any fighters on oh you suggesting that they could have had aircraft attacking as well yeah but i i don't think that's valid i don't think that they have it i don't think that there's any evidence that they have fighters at that point or bombers i mean even if they have fighters that engage with the other i was i was gonna say i assume their fighters are more um interested in defending the donut ship right yeah i guess if we only have the one but we see like two minutes oh well i mean i don't even know that it's worth expending any fighters for this fight because the droids have pretty much won like it doesn't take long for them to win this yeah it does seem though that the droids would the fighters would be in absolutely no danger at all sure though so it seems like it's the ideal time to use them genuinely like if we were playing this tactics wise and you know me and you were in charge i'd be like um i don't think we need federation did nothing wrong that's right i'd be like i don't think we need to throw i want to keep all of our fighters on the donut ship because i don't think they're needed at all in the field fight and we need to make sure they do not destroy our donut ship right but you also wouldn't magic away your blockade for no reason so oh no no no of course of course i'm not like not yeah yeah and assuming we had our our complete blockade still up then i i would have fighters on the surface of the planet to do you know fight each other oh at this point i think if we had all of our donuts we'd be able to just wash over the naboo's forces pretty easily look these donuts seem like a really well designed ship you can just fly in and pull them up i mean i was gonna say you'd be sarcastic with a part okay so apart from the fact that apparently you can accidentally destroy yeah apart from that bit whoops critical flaw the way the little cake can blow them up and it protects the central orb in the way that turrets are lining it and how you can't attack it from any angle because the outer wings and then the fact that orb in the middle is detachable it seems like a really useful kind of design so finished next one oh so okay so well here's a question for you guys if you're in charge of the army right and you send your force off to the gun attack the gun guns and then why before you actually engage with them so before any droids have dropped out of your tanks it turns out that this was all a ploy and then the booing to start attacking your capital city wouldn't you pull your army back to defend you instead of pointlessly engaging the gun guns for a reason um yeah i think that we could have used a line from the gun rays to be like you know a reason for why they didn't pull them back maybe if they were like oh they'll never reach us in time just destroy the gun guns i don't know why is why communications though oh that's you might be right yeah i feel like padme did that when she got into the castle didn't she say that she was gonna yeah you might be right i think they do the gun good yeah i think the gun rays mentioned that communications have been jammed i think um yeah no uh what how does that work if they can jam communications then that means that they could have done that beforehand right well i think she had to get into the castle and that's one of the things that they had to sneak in and then but what i'm saying what i'm saying is that if they can jam the communications with a a naboo owned system then why couldn't they get a signal off the planet to begin with no i think it's not off the planet i'm saying like to the droids on the planet like to cut them off from their communications so that way they don't know that the castle is being invaded right so it's you mean that okay so the the plot point that they they shut off all the droids or whatever the point that natalie portman says is um without the vice sorry they will be lost and confused that's the line we're referring to right yes okay no no no i thought you were saying that natalie portman specifically says she cuts off uh communications from the droid army to the naboo maybe not i don't remember that i'm looking it up right now but i i feel like i don't know where there was a screen my and my thing is that like why then are is new gunray on the planet if he's protected in a better location on the donut ship uh well so the the attack is a surprise are you asking why he didn't you asking why he didn't immediately evacuate yeah well why is he in and on the planet if there's a if there's a risk that he could be i don't know he probably feels why not pretty safe in the palace i guess i don't know why he wouldn't be surrounded by droid to cars and uh he did have a huge army guarding him before the guns went away and uh wouldn't he be the if he's the leader and he's helming this invasion wouldn't he want to be on the ground facilitating it personally like overseeing shit i don't know that's that's my argument on the planet and why not instead of on the droid control ship where you can control the droids didn't palpatine tell him to stay on the planet i don't remember i don't know stay on the planet my printus darth maul is going to come take care of you i will you say i'm sending my friend yeah he did it's not that you know you look pretty safe for the sith guarding him too was you know he didn't fucking maul ditched him all all took the jedi's out of the fight sent east right but we're where does it we're in the script does it say that so cdus says to newt gunray what what am i looking for does it it's when before maul gets there and it's a hologram and he says stay on the planet my apprentice darth maul i'm sending my apprentice darth maul i think it was in the beginning of the movie um i'm not able to find it all i can see is um i remember it that's okay here i think so this is the line nabuth palace throne room the night newton rune stand before a hologram of druth city of druth cities the queen is on her way to you i regret she is of no further use to us when she gets their destroyer is that the one that we're talking about i don't know i i just remember him saying to stay on the planet because maul's coming wait palpatine tells them to kill is it i don't think this is the movie wait a minute i i can i remember it in my head because it was the first time you see darth maul in a hologram and i thought right when he goes that's when he's tracking them to tattooing let me see because in this scene it says viceroy viceroy is the planet secure yes maul we have taken over the last pockets of primitive life forms we are in complete control of the planet now this must be our good i will see you i will see to that in the senate things stay as they are i'm sending darth maul to join you he will deal with the jedi yes maul and then city goes away he doesn't say to kill padmage no he doesn't tell them to do anything i think that the the argument that could be made is that um the the they think that they've secured the planet so they can just chill yeah like i that's where i'm at i'm like he could be on the ship he could be in uh the palace it doesn't really make a difference does it like but but from my perspective if i were in command of the battle i would immediately take something i would leave the planet go to my enjoyed control ship and then take control of the battle from there and then if there isn't a blockade then it that's even worse because you need those extra forces but that's just that's what i would do i don't you know i mean um we'll move to the next point or sure well uh do you have another point sitch i we're getting to the next one we're getting towards the end i mean i we don't really know why palpatine told them to go after the gungan army in the first place and they just kind of they didn't seem like they were threatening the his plans whatsoever they could have an army and they were moving they weren't moving on the feed with the shield they have an army that that once they activate the shields they just have to stand there right the point of that was to draw out the army and they banged us yes we're attacking nope with the position well if they had the ability if they had the ability to take the city then why didn't they do that all right what if the forces were a threat then why didn't they why didn't they use that tactic yeah i thought the whole point of them active acting as a diversion was because they didn't oppose a significant threat to the trade federation's army usually a diversion oh i posed a threat for sure i mean that's that's still an army knocking on your door but like um right the gungans knew that they couldn't like the gungans knew to themselves they couldn't win they moved on the city as if they were going to attack and then the trade federation obviously moved their troops out of the city and to the you know because again the the attack on armadillos the half was a complete surprise like they didn't know they're going to use the sewers and come up and then they thought the battle group outside the palace was the main battle group and then a little more snuck inside and then um while they're engaging even that group splits into two when the armadillos decoys stays stays on the main floor fighting the droids and the others use the grappling guns to go up a level it's um i take several contingencies in case they get like uh to to confuse the trade federation troops and leadership um but yeah the gungans moving on the city is what drew out the forces um i don't really i don't really seem to have its reason i think it's reasonable to say that the droids want to destroy that potential military force yeah newt seems to think close enough to the city from city is saying she's on the way and stuff newt and city has seemed to think that this is her plan to assault them with this army so he's like we're just going to go destroy them yeah it was a really bad plan on their part well yeah it doesn't work out because it's a ruse yeah they're so they're so dumb you know i would have done they're so dumb that they would have sent miami out there to take care of them like they're up so out would you send your army to kill the other hold on a second hold on a second well they're their static army their static army in a static shield can that shield move yes they got legs so i guess i'm well if it if it can you don't know it's only seen we don't we don't you know it's only seen station it's true walked in there with the shield no i agree with you right they use it as like a ball shield and just walk in they like yeah they could have but like as it stands as but just hear me out in static disposition the way that it is you can just lay siege to them and surround them and just wait but the gunways don't want the fight to be anywhere near the palace right he says like the battle was supposed to be far from here right so then that gives him time as he surrounds them that gives him time to time to get off the planet oh well wait are you asking you believe that the enemy if you believe the enemy army is going to come and assault your city i do kind of feel like you use the city as your defensive you could yeah the strategic position yeah especially have the high ground newton poppy gave up the high ground like it just from the dialogue you know the wipe them out all of them it seems that they just like they believe that is the entire concentration of enemies and that they've got way more droids and resources they'll just squash them i think why didn't they wipe them out then though no i i agree that it is confusing that they took prisoners for the gun because i don't know why that was um yeah that's all i don't think that's um the harvester organs look they're not china i can't believe the trade i can't believe that the trey federation is what you're saying yes slightly oh shit they found um amidala in the uh well uh when they captured over the georgia cars i can i think it is feasible that they still under the treaty sign because there was it there was something in it for them like money wise they could have like essentially done what they wanted legally take what they wanted from the boot um as opposed to just killing her which i think palpatine was against uh because he did tell them to wipe them all out um but yeah uh but yeah i am i am like i do think the gungans being taken prisoner is kind of retarded it is retarded so what else we got what was the point of the laser hallway in the darth malphite i don't know i got nothing i don't know what any of that was i don't know what that but i was gonna ask for that piece was i'm right like what is the practical application of a hallway that randomly cuts itself into every every couple minutes security like so all right everybody it's like that the line in galaxy quest when she's like what on earth does have to do with the function of the ship isn't it like a literal isn't it like a swiggy axe as well on the galaxy quest it's good shit why why is this in the ship had this loose theory that like when the city became under occupation someone like fell like like left the switch on that kept it like sort of cycling and just like it's been unattended for like how many days or weeks and just people like was it supposed to do to me according to the go ahead tell us according to wukapedia was it supposed to do i honestly i am kind of excited like what is the thing it's supposed to look cool guys okay it's just i got it it's just to set up the fact that for some reason obi-wan can't reach quagon and doesn't use super speed even though they show him using it he was tired so he was tired just and i i think that is i think that's a reasonable um explanation for him being uh unable to use and no that did uh me maybe i'll just pull it up actually if the force speed did quagon have to use it with obi-wan or did they both use it i thought maybe he could only use it with quite don't know i don't think you know what my issue is last with that it's more with the continuity that obi-wan sees them uh when he's like a you know a floor below he jumps and then suddenly they're really far away from him and it's to set up the fact i did i i did see i did see that yeah it's just like oh wow you fucking fell behind didn't you but uh yeah that wait well so what was the wukapedia for the for the red doors oh um actually i thought wukapedia person was angel told me but uh she's full of you know she she reckons it's an exhaust thing according to a novelization exhaust so they're fighting it is yeah they they're fighting it is essentially a power plant i know that's a good idea what these are why would your exhaust go inside the building instead of having like pipes out of it it's like you're exhausting your car doesn't direct it inside the car and then drag it out you know i'm gonna put this uh i'm gonna put this really really massive power complex underneath the the leader of our entire state's building or whatever the capital building the throne the capital building there's no radiation horrible horrible design i mean i might be able to get like this doesn't pass uh this doesn't pass osha standards there's no way anywhere i'm just i'm just i'll say how high did everyone have to jump i did see actually did fall actually did film before with him uh when he got kicked by dark mall it was a nice wasn't uh cg they jumped pretty far during his uh his jump unless he was jumping for like 15 seconds which i doubt yeah that's flying at that point and uh yeah like i just didn't it was only on recently rewatching it with rags i was like damn they really just suddenly get really far it's just like oh it's because they gotta separate them in there most of the problems with the prequels are just visual problems and like presentation issues like look at i'm looking at whatever's on the actual youtube channel right now this environment man it's so like sparsely dressed and it's very empty and and gigantic and it just opens a lot of questions about what it is and it's not explained and that to me is a metaphor for a lot of the prequel stuff the presentation of it and like all this like the way that the lighting and stuff and the compositing and there's errors that make it look like it's from the 90s and because it is like it's it's not the greatest you know i'm sorry about that i'm like i i can accept most of it but not the red doors i draw the line where i'm like okay what the f*** are these things like what what could possibly what and it's it's just so good for creating this split right between the three of them um i saw thio mention in chat but it's cool that dathmore was pacing and angry while quaggongin is trying to meditate and obi was just watching them both it's like the first time we get character for my i don't agree with that but fine okay um basically we need we need more character moments um i'll show you i'll tell you another detail in this scene um is like have you noticed that do door of the fates uh stops playing as soon as the doors lock like everyone in position oh yeah that's great and apparently according to george and uh you can see in the making of uh phantom and a documentary um and people say like williams did the music and that's why the music's so good that's true but george worked really heavily with uh with williams on the music for both you know when did he play triangle he just sort of like was like gave him a uh he was very specific of what he wanted he hummed the theme okay cowbell he played the cowbell sorry i was just gonna say as far as i know the he used temp tracks so like there would be other forms of music just like the original trilogy where he would use holst and and these uh classical composers as the basis for a lot of tracks the prequel trilogy had that too so he was definitely involved in what john williams would be taking ideas from i understand that yeah i i agree um what is with this file file and you two songs oh it's don't worry about it but yeah no uh door the fates stops playing right here and apparently according to williams and george uh the song is meant to uh signify impending doom i like to have a little touch of like uh the the door the fates music stops when the doors close because it's like everyone's like posed you know the fates are kind of sealed you know i mean like oh that's a good way of looking at it that's so that's nice i always like that it was a way to show off the different disposition of quigon and um dark mall like quigon when he has to sit and wait you are not about to repeat the point that i said like two minutes ago oh he is oh he's gonna repeat he's gonna repeat my point i'm sorry you know i like the the way that the red walls they kind of show the character of mall so i love it when uh i like that he goes back and forth like a tiger at the zoo and then yeah he's even got stripes on the tiger version of dark mall i like that i like it when dark mall he reaches up a hand and he goes you know i don't remember that literally mall like a tiger oh my god i just got it i know he's yeah it's so deep three deep five very deep i love i love it when you uh put on the blu-ray i love it when you put on uh i love it when you put on the blu-ray and you can see the prosthetics glued to dark mall's head oh that's what you know that's the unfortunatelyness of a blu-ray hd kind of ruining the special effects of a lot of older movies you can see the little skin parts that they used to glue on those things that are just sticking out of its head it's very obvious do they just need like is it just the pit factory where they just make you say that like that's not reasonable course it is star wars is obviously just a series of it's a series of tubes right that's what naboo was uh exporting pits that's what the federation was so desperate to get in on the pit action execute order 60 bits 60 bits every starlock needs a pit or are you gonna go pit i don't know it's not star wars unless there's a giant hole in the ground brian johnson was a genius the trade federation one of the pits naboo made all the pits they were gonna get taxed things didn't work out boom blockade well to be fair they are harvesting plasma and that's why naboo is so valuable because of all the plasma plasma like from the door you know which was they fly through they they take the ship they were more yeah because i don't know if plasma is like a vineyard or an orchard they just say they they're harvesting wait a minute that's why it's like it's like the rick and morty pluto episode that's why they could fly through the core they had got all the plasma out of the core there you go just fly straight through then it fills up with water and then oh my god it makes perfect sense to farm plasma rhinos i get it um so the red doors i i think it's fair to say that it's stupid that they exist because it seems so ridiculous and unsuitable and simultaneously it facilitates quite gone's death so pretty significant i'm kind of indifferent about it i mean you know like i don't know it's convenient i'll talk down to being convenient but like convenient for more of it convenient just in general like uh you know sort of need a mechanical justification for being there that's that's what you mean because it facilitates a plot point um but i can i can suspend my disbelief and saying like you know it's a sci-fi environment it's a power plant they have these forced force field doors there to again for whatever reason but i guess that's the problem so um i don't know i can suspend my disbelief i mean if it was like one door you could say oh it's like a security door maybe this is a lot in the area but it's like a hallway it's like six and yeah but there's no card that you swipe there's also and it's on intervals of time it's so weird it seems like a random video game level where for no explicable reason there are these deadly hazards as you go to and from work right it's good writing so next point uh um the joy to cause show up and they surround Padme and capture her but then once they take her the viceroy all the joy to cause are magically gone and then once the fake Padme shows up uh newt very stupidly sends like almost everyone to go after her and he just allows the prisoners he captured to literally just run around the room and look for guns and no one stops them or does anything but the little still on on 20 uh i mean i don't i can i certainly think the joy to cause uh disappearing was kind of odd i suppose they aren't escort joys i can't like walk as fast as the the battle droids can maybe that's why but um put a pin in that i feel like they can set the pace though like you go the pace of this project or they can roll ahead you know i mean this is they think she's the queen right this is like the most important person to capture no of course um and i did they captured but like um but when they sent uh the droid squadron after a decoy um gunray didn't account for the uh the hidden guns in uh Padme's uh throne chair which was what she was counting on yeah but no but you still wouldn't let prisoners unarmed or not just run around the room really nearly right like it's just a new gunray with her hand you still had uh droids in there i guess what i find interesting is that you have about prisoners four five six seven eight nine battle droids in the room in total and probably like seven enemies it's like damn this is it's a dangerous because battle droids are so shit one of these guys grabs a gun i don't know gotta be careful and how many of them run out of the room uh let's have a look i think only i think there's only three left one after the decoy she got two get killed after that and then one two three four Jesus Christ he's sending so many they all get shot most of them don't even make it out of the room because they i'm telling you i buy these droidek uh droidekas i'd always have like at least two around me at all times i would just build the droidekas and say fuck fuck yeah seriously but what but what if your army meets a meets a staircase then what you're right jet packs jet packs well you can have a rags you can have an entire special forces unit just for stairs i'm just going to turn them sideways and say they're frisbees and they there you go i i know we're going back to our two units the droid okay wait one of the shitty droids could lay down and the droidekas could roll over their corpse the battle droids only purpose is to carry droidekas upstairs to be the fighting um this is why the super battle droid argument works because it's like why even fuck around with the shitty ones just just make some and it is the interesting thing about the droidekas like if you had one in that room with its shield up can they actually defeat it like what can they do no they would get right reach through the shield and i don't know punch it i don't know what is it about what is it about the droidekas design that makes it so the shield is exclusive to the droidekas and not anything else i don't know i think it's just that they decide when you mass produce something you sort of settle on a model and you make and you're like all right these things are quick and but they're like so it it does make a lot of sense though they're very quick but the alternative to being quick is that they're exposed and they can't shoot while they're rolling around right but then they deploy where they're slow and so the shield basically turns them into a gun in place they're very interestingly balanced aren't they they're perfect for video games yeah they're great for video games and um but why but why can't people have the little shield well if we assume that it costs one dollar to make a battle droid and 100 to make a droideka i guess part of the cost is the shield generator that's in them or whatever and that's why there's so few compared to battle droids well you could have like in the in the clones for example you could have like oh all the normal clones don't have the shield but then you see the captains have the shields right you have some someone has the fucking shields nothing else in star wars that we've seen in the movies have personal shields except for the droidekas you sewer great it's almost like they're designed just to fight those guys that's almost like it is it has always bugged me about star wars that apparently no one values their own life and gets armor or no one wears it everyone just armor that does something oh yeah well gungans are ready to kill themselves all the time for another race that they think i mean at least they have shields you know what net they had better shields than captain america did in infinity war that's aside the point it's true why does no one else but the gungans have fucking laser shields because the cave people who live in a swamp that's why we know that armor is a thing that exists that is a functional thing in the universe i don't know people not wear it here's a bit of a theory do you ever see armor in the i remember in the sequels you see phasma's armor deflect lasers but do we ever see like stormtrooper armor ever deflecting lasers or anything no no because that's and that's a new that's a new thing i pitway yeah because we see the sith troopers deflecting bolts we see captain phasma deflecting bolts with her armor storm i i almost don't want to call it stormtrooper armor i just want to say fuck it's just a uniform at this point right electron walls with this big goofy helmet that's what they're called electron walls the the gungan things and i'm just saying man they okay those would come in handy at a lot of times imagine a jedi running around with one of those personal shields and you can shoot them and they can just cut people in half yep what if what if a jedi had a jetpack why not i don't know um why doesn't darth mal push obi down the hole with the force instead of just standing there that's too much work i don't know i just wanted to fight him that he wanted to get the satisfaction of killing him like he did quite a lot that's that's totally fair that's totally reasonable but every step in star wars uh their arrogance is the one i'm doing like the mall it's uh he's over confidence with obi one with dooku oh sorry uh yeah with dooku um it's uh goading anakin to use his aggressive side um with anakin it's uh you know the high ground not listening to obi we have a high ground uh which is a callback which is a callback to phantom man in the way uh everyone can come up more um and of course palpatine uh is overly sure of himself it doesn't account for vader's humanity boxman gets himself killed as well um what about grievous so from a writing statement a writing statement i'm not uh grievous isn't a sip though um oh oh you're saying only sip i got you yeah yeah there you go i think grievous should be allowed in the club is an honorable mention jeez yeah yeah he has light sabers come on he's got more lightsabers than anybody somebody give him like somebody give him the shit you know like he can have the t-shirt for the club he can't he doesn't have full membership he's on their council but if they give him the rank of yes um so yeah but like uh from a writing standpoint i really don't have any issue with this whatsoever it's the way it plays out on screen like i think everyone could have clashed sabers with him on the way up and um could have then come around for the for the killing swipe or he could have um jumped and like sort of been like jumped kind of like out and over you know what i mean so out of swing range more or less and uh lander behind him but um the way it plays out is that he's too close he could get cut in half too easily even if more had his guard down which is and a lot of people do feel that mole just doesn't react fast enough he stands still for a little too long i mean you could also consider you also could also make the argument that like you know in luke uses force jump like um in uh empire strikes back like it's pretty damn quick it's like many years you could say that it was just slowed down for uh it was just you know it was actually in that in that time but um it just slowed down for the viewers that've seen the maneuver there is actually an editing mistake that i'll point out um when obi-wan cuts from the jump to behind off more the saber in maul's hands uh switched so yeah notice that's all right you know um i'm trying to be fair here um yeah see before it was in the uh right hand out to the left um which thing's odd um like i said just plays that polly on screen um if there's a couple of arguments i think again writing wise i've got no issue with it just it just yeah the time from obi-wan landing going to swing complete in the swing it's just like dammel can you can you yeah you guys seem to just be watching it happen yeah that's i mean like if he collided sabers with him on the way up or um yeah there's a couple of tweaks you could do to make it um you could even have them do like a clash clash clash clash stab you know like obi-wan just manages to outplay him or even like a repost or something i first saw this was like the greatest thing ever by the way like just that move well there's a weird thing too because it's like darth mull and obi-wan are staring each other on the pit and darth mull kind of makes this confused face he's like what's he doing and then you see obi-wan looks to where the lightsaber is and though technically he shouldn't technically be able to see he can sense it yeah he can sense it so he's looking to where the lightsaber is because he's gonna grab the force maul doesn't like look to see what obi-wan's looking at he doesn't react to him looking away he doesn't try to stop him from grabbing a lightsaber he just as you said stands there and gets cut in half it does honestly the way i took it was maul was like what are you what are you what could you possibly be thinking right now like look at you what could you do with and that he's like oh shit fuck you're oh yeah the lightsaber jeez right but like if you're fighting someone and they look away from you at something don't isn't that dry you're like what is that guy oh yeah i don't get over don't get me wrong i'm not a jedi master or sith warrior that's been training to fight jedi for years but if someone looked to their right i'd be like hmm are they trying to trick me or is there something right there and then the idea that if obi-wan can't see it but he senses it means that so should dark maul i don't know just that's the way it looks to me like you can you can make a few arguments for it again i'm willing to concede that it plays out poorly on screen that riding wise it's it's fine like i can i can buy the maneuver itself um just needs to do sure so sorry did we ever i don't i mean we brought up i don't know if we ever talked about it if the how i can anyone just fly into the droid ship and then blow it up yeah so this might be what i consider the biggest flaw of the phantom menace he just accidentally flies in and then blows up the entire base by accident it's even worse that it's by accident he just pulls his thing and goes whoa and fires things that hit a thing that blows up the whole thing it's like what i'll try spinning that's a good trick like is this i don't really have i don't really have an issue with anakin like i mean because it's not like i'm fine with him being able to activate the explosive rounds it's that he doesn't even intend to he's like oh i see he doesn't intend to destroy the thing that'll have a chain reaction that destroys the entire donut ship that's just something that happens because he was trying to shoot the droids which is crazy to me um yeah and once he's up there i don't really have too much of an issue like i can buy him like maneuvering the ship someone else pointed out to me in uh in uh in chats where my disc got to get that like on the way back to nebu he was like learning yeah the guy's teaching him how to pilot a ship yeah or a ship that was a different ship can i highlight right now the screenshot what i know it's it's all fucked because of the artifacts but um as as the blue blob proton torpedo things are about to hit the main generator the blows up the whole ship you've got the line of dialogue from one of the weird uh uh nemoidian people who's like nothing can get through our shield it's like uh it's so like i even remember when i was when i first saw this movie i was just confused by this i was like how did he get in there how is this possible like it's so weird anyway aren't there fighters aren't there fighters that uh the droids have fighters out there trying to shoot down the uh nebu cruises it's not like that i i i guess my my issue is like i just wouldn't have thought this would be a thing you could do like you could just fly into an enemy hangar and shoot their like you know call this would be the tactic that everyone would be trying to do if this was an option on the table i always don't get down to um like the shield protects against like uh blast bolts and uh missile fire and uh projectiles but um you'd think that um i don't know why this is accessible to the hangar i was gonna say like i can i can accept that you could fly into the enemy hangar bay but it's almost a suicide mission like going in there they're all just gonna open fire and you're like oh fuck but you know right anakin gets hit and uh ashland uh but he shouldn't even be you shouldn't be able to reach the hangar to the core of the ship that if anyone shoots at it instantly blows up it's just yeah the fact is that it can be shot from the hangar and then it makes the whole ship blow up which seems like a design flaw yeah these these donut ships need a little bit of work uh yeah i guess it could be somewhere else yeah knock out i'll concede because obviously like this is pretty huge because it saves the gungans and then it uh well it doesn't it's not really no it doesn't uh it doesn't uh we everything if we're blind yeah if we're assuming they were only going to be captured then yeah i guess fine they would have been saved eventually theoretically i guess um yeah but like i was like okay it does save the gungans gungans themselves uh shouldn't have been spit right i should have been taken prisoner because of the yeah now i get on this one yeah great kill joe there no no kill joe how come the robots don't shoot on anakin ship until he puts the shields on and i think it's uh up to like i mean they move in on him and then uh you don't see because it cuts away like how long the time has been since like he powers up the shield it's like they're about they're moving on and they're about to and then uh then the shield comes up i mean like they get like real close before they start shooting they're almost i don't know if the film's trying to argue that they're like what is this like they're inspecting it but you'd think they'd recognize it's like oh fuck that's an abu you know thing shoot it right next to our power yeah because they've all gone really close and they're all just like what is this poor r2d2 it's like fucking stressing out like get the shields on you fuck hey works out uh anything else um i still checking in i mean is more is there anymore from that battle because i had some that are after that that i think are like bigger problems that i had um well i just i want to know what yoda's alternative was to letting anagin be trained what else was his what was his alternative there send him back to the slave planet no yoda's alternative what do you mean like um he says that he doesn't want him to have him trained for whatever reason and then i'm just wondering what he's protesting he's like basically saying no you can't do it because he's too old and then what he's too emotional but then but then what what happens to anakin though in that alternative thing that doesn't happen that worried about his mom is too emotional for a Jedi he goes back then i suppose he would go back to uh his mom or uh he would go to like a correspondent orphanage i guess uh so so it doesn't seem weird doesn't it doesn't it seem weird that the jedi don't collect all of the force sensitive users if they're past a certain age doesn't that mean that there's a bunch of randoms force sensitive people running around there that could potentially be sif that could potentially be dark jedi which i know we haven't gotten to count duke well remember he says the rule of two always two on a master and an apprentice which one did they kill or the master or the apprentice the question that i had was if when count duke comes in he's a dark Jedi or whatever he's a former jedi he actually leaves so isn't there like a whole what am i to presume would anakin's fate be if yoda refuse or was that just to pretend that there was potentially something else that was going to happen in the plot well they don't agree to let him be trained until after quigon dies and that's when they know that darth mull was a sif i think also quigon didn't take him off tada wing with the intentions of ever bringing him like back he was he was gonna train him no matter what as soon as the council rejected him he opts to train him and then you know to make sure he gets trained he you know he has his final dying wish to obi one i'm just gonna like it wasn't gonna let action like you know the jedi may like you know may have um uh yeah i'm sure it was a possibility across his mind like i what the jedi didn't take him but he regardless wasn't gonna let that happen so they accept him and he gets trained or i'll train him myself but he's he's gonna be he's you know he's chosen one i'm training him no matter what right and i'm just saying what what did so yoda didn't change his mind he said he couldn't train him but then oh he didn't want to talk to you but he but he did change his mind obi one i'm trying to follow along okay obi one threatens to try to figure it out that darth mull was a sif and that quigan had died and obi one promised to train him and obi one's like i'm gonna either you're gonna let me train him here i'm gonna leave and i think because of quigan's death they're like all right one jedi has already like died for this child to learn how to become a jedi so it was kind of bending the rules which obviously did not make all of us but okay so yoda says quigan's defiance a sense and you need that you do not agree the council does your apprentice young skywalker will be but that's in the same conversation where earlier he says confer on you the level of jedi night the council does but agree on you taking this boy as your padawan learner i do not and then so the only thing that makes him change his mind is obi one convincing him by saying oh quigan believed in him i believe in quigan it wasn't it wasn't just that and then yoda says yoda says the chosen one the boy may be so he admits he's the chosen one but i see grave nevertheless grave danger i fear in his training and then master yoda master yoda i've given i gave quigan my word i will train anakin without the approval of the council if i must okay so yoda gives in to obi one because he says he'll do it anyway yeah if he's either gonna train him with or without your help yoda's philosophy is okay well we're not there's like very well if you have it your way but you're better off training him under our supervision like with the blessing of the council as opposed to training him as a rogue somewhere without the council's guidance you know and it yoda senses like great force power within him if that's unchecked if obi one trains him and uh doesn't train him right uh you know he could turn into the massive uh threats or who knows what he turned into but wouldn't that yeah it's almost like you know all these we were too old like if you come across a jedi or someone who could use the force you're like no this person's 10 they're too old so do they just like what happens then well it's very often occurrence anakin was a very clearly an exception the only reason like they froze him you don't have to be anakin anybody anybody who's force sensitive that's found before yeah wouldn't it be dangerous to let those people just roam around yeah i mean that's the bigger it wouldn't be able to beat a jedi master if you're just force sensitive doesn't sure but i think the sif would be a rock up other than them all up almost fourth i've never learned how to use a saber or even build one sorry i can hey it's still use the force and do all kinds of shenanigans with it and if they get corrupted by the arc side like the difference between somebody that's strong and you know got street smarts compared to like a navy seal like who do you think is going to win in that fight like a jedi it's not it's not about this but how do can i kick their ass apostates this is about random people around the galaxy who have force powers which will be varying degrees of power and all the bad stuff that they could do if they use it for bad purposes and get you know they use the dark side and the dark side is we don't know it was a pathway to many that was an issue huh that's why jedi now that there's an issue then they go to it and they take care of it i don't believe that that is something they can actually do well that with the scope and the scale of the galaxy and the fact that they can only they only send so many people to so many places i i don't think it's a very flawed system i agree on that but that that is what they do i mean that would have been an interesting i think that would have been a very interesting dynamic if you see like the jedi have to go put down random people that have a lot of metachlorians but are never trained and then quigan or obi one could use that as an example of why he should be allowed to train anakin because he's like he still has exactly he still has the metachlorians like if we let him out into the world he knows that you know i've told him he's special he knows he's got all these metachlorians we know he has more than yoda like this is a this is a huge wild card we're putting out there in the galaxy if we don't you know keep a watchful eye on them ourselves you think absolutely we want to keep our eyes on it there's one glaring contradiction though that's um luke now luke was if you know metachlorians do transfer into the ot can and um and luke had a very high concentration of metachlorians being anakin uh offspring luke didn't even know or feel any you know any attunement to the force until obi one happened maybe maybe that's why he's always been a good pilot and he's very force-sensitive he's maybe he's sensitive to it but he just doesn't know anything and then how he says that he could shoot wrong brats and yeah yeah he said you know him and then that's what he uses to destroy the death star to be fair he said we we used to blast long pratt's right well he doesn't specify like maybe he was the only one that shot them he could go out and shoot stuff with this oh no no that that refers anybody said i that we right no no no no no no that refers to the deleted scene out of the entire group he's not bragging about himself he's just saying like oh like it's like when you go out with your friends usually there's one in the group that's the best shot you know when he's uh by definition there has to be one who's the best no he's talking about he's talking about big dark lighter he used he's supposed to be friends with him there's supposed to be a whole tashi station sequence that was cut out of the original movie so when he's referring to that yeah it could be an error because they cut the scene out you know what i mean but what that's referring to is back in the day it was him and it was big's dark lighter and dark lighter was supposed to be the older like figure that he looked up to that joined the academy luke can't join the academy which is why he goes to complain to uncle on and off for that's what that's referencing this is the empire academy right yeah that's what see that's what's funny about that is that i don't know because i don't think it's it's stated but i think the intention i always assumed that there was a an imperial academy that then they like ran away from but it could be the rebel academy for all i know that could be i mean would a rebel faction have like an academy you could visit and like they probably would you know i got they meant call it that like this is again assumption they never say what it is but he also he you know it's it's left open for interpretation so it could be a flaw in that we don't know what it's referring to it's on the same level of the flaws we've been talking about with right kind of stuff in the prequels gotta be fair right yeah no i always assumed he was talking about joining the empire when he said the academy that's what i thought yeah and then i'm just but i'm going i mean i'm explaining that in the movie it's not exactly stated so it's fair to call that vague right yeah no it is big yeah so i looked at the senior you were talking about uh yoda says he disagrees with training anakin but the council right agrees with training anakin which the next question is to why the council changed their mind i well what i my assumption is that because he's the chosen one they they want to choose to do that but that's could be some irrelevant to my core to move for quaggum's death as well maybe i could play a part i'm still curious as to why yoda what yoda's alternative is that he just thinks that this boy shouldn't be trained but i agree that it says right here that the council does not yoda but what i'm curious about is what yoda's idea was like no just let him go back to tatooine or what else and then there was an additional point that i wanted to make about that that yoda specifically states that he's this little kid obviously who's never been away from his mother before whose mother is still a slave is thinking about his mother like that's a point against him and that goes into my argument that taking shmee off the planet to make sure that whatever point anakin enters the jedi academy she's safe is would would secure his himself he wouldn't have to you can still detach him through the indoctrination of being a a jedi and and being that disconnected person but if you don't rescue his mother then everything happens so i find it ironic that yoda's inability to let that anything like that happen with all the resources that the jedi have with all their powers to not rescue shmee skywalker that could be construed as yoda making the big fuck up that causes the chosen one to turn to the dark side good job yoda all right green people man um um i mean like this one thing i always had uh one of them out is like when he says i agree with you the council does uh does that mean he's i mean the council is not present like i'm pretty sure yoda is speaking for the council as like the head honcho like yeah yeah that's fair yeah if you have an issue with that what are you what are you saying i assume what he meant was that he personally disagreed but i guess whatever the jedi council he was out voted over yoda or something yeah right and my question was my question was what did yoda yeah what do you do our side of the argument i'm pretty sure that was pretty sure that was him relenting after he realized recognize everyone was going to train him without his help like fine i'll do it you okay but he'd be still okay and what i'm trying to say is on one hand you could say okay yoda still doesn't agree with the council's decision and my question is from the initial standpoint that he had because he initially said we can't train him he's too old he kept coming up with excuses and my question was what was yoda's idea there what was he trying to do or just delay the inevitable they don't present an alternative for anakin is what you're saying yeah quagon quagon explains or whoever he's like you know follow me watch me and just and just hang out with me and i i get that but this is independent of what yoda is talking about or his you know yeah yoda should be concerned that there's a kid with as many midichlorians as him wandering around that could possibly grow up to become evil because he's sensing fear in him and he's just like whatever don't worry why why else wouldn't you want him to be with the jedi why wouldn't yoda immediately try you know what i mean like it's it's like if harry potter or something didn't get protected by dumbledore it's like dumbledore is like not i want to deal with you let's let's not protect the chosen one let's leave him out there for the villains to pick up because they they get the hearing that there's a sith lord out there and this is they suspect suspect that there's a sith lord out there maybe that influences their decision i'd love to hear that because then and you know it's like we can't let this sith lord take this kid and that goes again to my point about schmi skywalker if anybody finds out that the chosen one anakin skywalker he doesn't change his name has a mother that could be held hostage that's a security risk that's a huge risk he's the chosen one that could be used to manipulate him and it does and yoda is not able to detect that that's the right course of action and people keep telling me oh they couldn't do it they couldn't do it i'm like you can write that can't tell me that you can't do something like that that you can logic that out people are saying they couldn't do what they couldn't go get his mom they couldn't get schmi yeah i've heard that argument a lot and i'm like i don't understand that argument i understand what the points are being made but i don't think it's sufficient to i think it's so immoral that it makes the jedi an almost immoral organization because it's someone i don't understand why you wouldn't want to i understand that like the buddhist ideas to to get at yourself out of worldly affairs but that's not what the jedi are they're the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy they're involved in worldly affairs right they're diplomats shallow and monks are not diplomats you know the dalai lama might be a diplomat that might be the the foundation for what that is but as that there's a separation between him as the leader of tebet and the leader of buddhism well yeah no i agree with you i think but this is to me this is a big plot hole in the clone wars uh is why why the hell did no one ever go back to get anakin's mom at any point anomaly keeps getting disconnected yeah that'll be an attack of the clones discussion i guess yeah yeah is that it for phantom of the menace phantom of the menace that shows what my brain's at right now that's how long we've been gone yeah this is we're nearly at nine and a half hours the only the only one last minor complaint i can make is that uh yoda's complaining that anakin is being fearful which we don't actually see anakin being fearful again this is more tell not show everything anakin everything we see of anakin shows that he's brave not fearful but then at the end of it all the reason yoda is against training anakin is he directly says i fear that you know i fear darkness in him or whatever so he doesn't want to train anakin because anakin's afraid i see darkness in him yeah okay we use the line fear specifically oh so why is it okay for yoda to be afraid of things but it's not okay for anakin to be afraid of things i know uh i don't know not a big point and i know anomaly is not here anymore so no i mean i think that that is actually i could i never even thought about that that's actually a really big issue i think that uh most of the issues that will come up that are at this point in the movie are actually attack of the clones issues especially the way that there's a time skip and but i don't know what the plan is i don't know if we're gonna come back to it i'm willing to do that you know if chat can handle two more episodes but i'm i i think that a lot of the stuff that comes up as like the victory state that ends up in attack of the clones can has a lot of issues um oh ana what's better christmas or halloween halloween is my birthday and christmas is depressing as hell so i'm gonna go with halloween who is christmas yes yes yes yes yes yes i get ana family life isn't good plus family keep dying so very depressing rags that's fair point sorry about that how does that not similarly count against halloween because it's my birthday and i just go out and get drunk in a costume with all my friends yeah it sounds pretty good i mean you get pretty handy rags i was gonna say everywhere at christmas social i'm just i'm just happy i'm less lonely on team halloween i'd say there's more candy on on christmas and easter uh well maybe it's a family thing but i come from a very fucked up broken family so christmas and it's always the worst day of the year for me uh my favorite holiday is actually valentine's day oh we should do valentine's versus easter as another one not that i care about either of those another holiday is more candy than halloween yeah but halloween's the coolest halloween beats the mole for cool factor no it isn't absolutely not even a competition yeah yeah yeah that's no i agree that halloween is the coolest holiday for sure do you know the killer argument is all halloween episodes of tv are awesome and all christmas episodes are usually pretty lame oh that's a great argument that's edgy explain that rags why christmas episodes are bad and why halloween episodes are good that is not objectively proven that halloween is better i have no idea you have to explain it you have to is there a halloween action movie as good as diehard oh that's a fair point well nightmare before christmas is an amazing movie it is a great christmas movie i agree it's both but it's both halloween and christmas so it's christmas i really don't like that literally both what i really don't like the nightmare before christmas how dare fuck off oh my god i'm sorry it's i think it's really boring oh no oh no chat chat go easy on her okay chat chill out chat and out and we know this guy who's single his name's jay you you guys are getting along really all your weird takes and shit you do realize rags i'm in a relationship and i live with my i know it's more of a joke about how he thinks space balls is boring and you don't like the nightmare before christmas oh my god you don't have any room to talk you don't get to join this team all of a sudden the nightmare before christmas is boring i've seen it what how dare you how dare you now i'm not the hated one ha ha jeez i remember christmas is a masterpiece so i'm gonna talk about i don't know well maybe i'm not the biggest tim burton fan i mean not ever nobody is because he has such a big spag it's like yeah like his old movies are great it's just it's very predictable and it i don't know it's an acquired taste it was never my thing wait that's fine i'll claimation is predictable his animation oh his claimation his animation is not uh right right i understand did you like uh choraline have you seen that i have seen it it's it's okay oh i like choraline yes it's so you're just you're just not a big fan of that uh tim burton aesthetic that's just not your thing uh well i mean i like edward scissor hands that's a good one okay what about spedal juice field juice yes no i like mini talk and yes i like it it's not boring no it's not boring it's not boring but can i remember christmas is all right do you like any uh live act stop motion movies do you like anything good yes i got bragged i do she likes halloween halloween's passable no halloween is awesome halloween is awesome it's the coolest but uh christmas is still the best because i get presents no i get to have all this food everybody's happy amazing it's it's fall or and then becomes winter it's just great this debate this is what tears e fava part let me let me point out that i'm sorry anna you're saying something i interrupted you uh you're fine i was just gonna add all of my memories of christmas i only have one that was like a good memory of christmas well we gotta we gotta improve that then i'm gonna find a way to and anna christmas that'll be the christmas special is this the longest like e fav that isn't 50 for just the actual subject i mean besides it's 24 hour one yeah besides 50 yeah i just want to point out that christmas is so cool i mean not cool christmas is so great that they had to invent kwanzaa and hanaka to put next to it well you understand christmas is so dope everybody wants to be around the winter solstice time i know you you know that hanaka came before christmas right i have to say i do but but you called it a menorah it's called the hanakia get your fact straight oh my god it's called a menorah like the candle stick i know i'm messing with the thing it's okay fucking anti-semi listen listen there's no way it's a plot hole that that oil could last that long okay and just saying it was a total deuce ex machina that god made the oil in the bible lasts for seven days i know i agree that's that's fair enough that's fair enough um so does that bring us to i guess it's time for the the question will now be is the phantom men is well written because we didn't really get to the end no it's the answer to that question well you know we gotta let the people decide um even though this is so stupid because there's so many reasons why this is a terrible test but go nuts everyone vote now i i i highly doubt that we convinced anybody that was a hardcore prequel fan i'm sure they doubled down and now they're gonna go watch the prequels and be like those guys are just idiots it's just perfectly fine they can do that it wasn't a particularly intense dissection well i mean i enjoyed it i brought a few new things to my attention and i think i added some more to your perspective as well it's like counteract definitely there was a bit of back and it was a bit a bit of half and half um i think we got um i think we got it found our way about halfway through and it got a lot better and hopefully we can continue that and not be too i don't know what the intensity about that was but i i just gotta give you credit man you've been up for a long time you're a real soldier man i really appreciate that that's true i'm uh what time is it fuck i didn't go to sleep i tried to sleep didn't happen and then by the time i was starting full asleep was like an hour before the start it sounds like fuck there's no point now so collectively i've been up for about 34 hours i saw the stream was full prepped cups of coffee well four and a half and that's all gone well anomaly definitely wins the stamina for days of work yes all right so uh looking looking how do we look so before we were like it yes had a comfortable lead yes his lead is still yeah it's still kind of comfortable but uh closer it looks like so not you guys obviously changed a few minds it isn't that we've swapped out the entire audience by now and that the people didn't go to bed or anything it's been almost 10 hours right i like that undecided is 22 in both so the underside is the same yeah they're just like i don't know man i don't know you just don't give a shit they're like whatever uh well yeah okay so um i don't uh i've got i've got unfortunately a bit of a bit of a big ol headache developing and it's not i'm not blaming that on anybody it's the fact that i uh didn't get to get like it's not as bad as anomaly but i was gonna say you can't you cannot say i'm i'm almost have been awake for 24 hours so he's he's definitely beating me but that's the way i explain the fact that i've got a headache right now it's really annoying it's one of those ones that makes some weird stuff come up in my eye as well it's getting all over the screen and it's making me annoyed so i already know so this that sleep is the thing that kills this mystic autistic wants to point out that we actually polled for the entire prequels and now this is a different question well that's why i said that this is a this is like a terrible way to gauge anything i just know that people want us to do it there's there's so many variables this it's not fair whatsoever the fact that we there's no way that people have voted on this who watched the whole thing right now so this is well there may be one or two but yeah it's it's fine um so uh i guess the plan will be we've got a whole bunch of super chats to catch up on from a previous stream and this one's ones me and rags are probably gonna record a mini that are just super chats because obviously the if we do it like just like that should we should be able to just get through them all probably like tomorrow or something and do um better coverage of it just because i'll be a lot more awake and a lot more uh fiery i guess instead of uh dying but um i don't know i i'm trying to think of what else uh to say i guess well we should probably do like a round thing of getting everybody um oh look at these people i did i watched it all i did yeah right time stamp in the chat prove it um well yeah so i guess i'll get you uh you guys the channels out there first and foremost make sure we get that sorted so um i guess i'm gonna go from left to right for those other than me and rags um so normally inked you want to go first tell people what you do and why they should subscribble uh okay uh so uh i do ours and game of thrones primarily just released a one hour game of thrones video about the the behind the scenes we never got for uh episode six so check it out you may find something out and uh there's plenty of prequel videos on my channel if you're into that so yeah hope to see you there wait a minute this could be potentially another argument are you pro the end of game of thrones or anti the end of game of thrones i would not be here if i was pro okay thank god yeah we don't allow people in uh this stuff except yazen we uh we debated somebody in this sort of format almost who loved uh season eight it was horrifying wasn't it really yeah it's uh good old mr yazen you guys should go check it out and kill yourself listening to it it's not let's see look we can we might all have disagreements about the prequels but we can all come together and shit on d and d in the last game of thrones well i guess next up would be mr glib facsimile oh yeah chat loves me now they're definitely gonna want to see what i got hey man you know controversial why not check them out get a nice healthy balanced diet of youtubers how about that yeah i don't know about that this was uh this was the first time that i felt like i was on an uphill battle when it came to the perception of all the people that i was talking to it was a very interesting experience um but uh yeah on my channel what i'm looking forward to doing is i have a mr robot review and a comparison of blade runner 249 blade runner that i'm working on so that you can understand more about where i'm coming from and what i define as good filmmaking and what not i'm actually more into i think uh i have a critical analysis and i for technical stuff this was a really good exercise because i do writing and that kind of thing as well um you can catch me on smugcast whenever we do those with literature devil and all the people like i said before and look forward to uh being in chat as a mod and all that so thank you again for having me on no problem i love mr robot i love mr robot's first season and then i get into the the the subjective realm when it comes to ripped off like that oh no that's part of my that's part of my uh my my whole video is called building mr robot it's all going to be about what things were taken from the matrix fight club american psycho i do a comparison it's actually a lot like what rick did with some of the star wars stuff so if you like that you might actually enjoy what i'm talking about here because i'm talking more holistically about world building i think that there's errors in the things that i really like um i think the thing that i will the hill the only hill that i will die on is venture brothers everything else you know it's like i don't like venture brothers i don't know that's you know it's hard to disagree with it but i'm not i'm i'm critical of everything including the things that i like that's my personality but it doesn't mean that i don't appreciate and like things it's just like being objective cool um i hate everything no no you can't say that you're supposed to promote your channel not promote his channel oh okay yeah my channel is psa sitch where i used to talk mostly about politics and now i don't because the algorithm says fuck you about politics now i talk about movies and tv shows the video i'm working on right now which i've no idea what'll come out is about watchmen it's kind of a meme on my own streams because i always complain about how the watchman comic with the giant squid is far superior than the terrible ending in the movie so i'm finally making a video explaining the end of the washman comic and why it's so important so that's my first channel my second channel is psa sitch undaily where every sunday including tomorrow at four o'clock eastern i stream with adam friended where we basically do the efap version of political videos where we watch someone's awful political video we pause it every two seconds criticize them and it goes on for six hours yay check it out if you like politics yeah you you were here not long ago like like two efaps ago promoting that so if anyone didn't catch it do it now still didn't catch it there hey man who doesn't love politics we got to find a video uh that you and rags can come on on our stream to talk about movie bob just just do movie bob movie bob most of his a political what about a lindsay ellis video because we did one of hers yeah maybe she i'm pretty sure she's blocked me on twitter so oh they're perfect there you go i don't even know who that is uh she's uh youtube video essay lady analysis person yeah i will go she complains about disney movies and stuff um so yeah anna your your last but not least would you like to tell the people about your shornel um i do not talk about politics mr robot or watchman because i hate all of those they were for christmas what you know watch my comment or christmas out of all four of those uh that one would be the top of the list but uh i talk about star wars and star trek and other like marvel and superhero stuff and yeah this is just a bit uh it's all that star wars girl on uh youtube twitter and instagram do you like the new uh picard show oh fuck no oh my i feel like i lost brain cells every few minutes watching that show why did you like it i didn't see it but i heard it was terrible hmm i didn't see it but i heard it was very bad don't do it don't don't hurt yourself new star trek has not been good so i just kind of pass on it that's a wise decision um so yeah that probably does it for that uh any i don't know is it anyone anyone want to say anything in particular or any kind i don't want to cut anyone off hmm um thanks for uh me on and uh thanks to the chat it was a pleasure uh yeah of course thank you all for for uh coming on for as long as you did all of you uh spent a long time trying to get your uh perspectives forward and i already know i've already been made aware of uh how there's a lot of threads on the subreddit that are apparently very unhappy with this uh debate which is like all right all right we'll have to get happier unhappy oh very uh i think it's structure i think most people are annoyed with structure but the thing is let's put it this way rags and i have uh one of the things that was was cool to uh bond over with me and rags is that we both found when when just talking about stuff that we'd watched a shit ton of debates separately before we'd met obviously like um didn't we talk about like the chris phitchins ones there's just loads on youtube they're really fun to watch but uh one of the things we both agreed on that we really didn't like was that you'd have him an opponent um the the opponent would speak for you know 30 minutes even an hour about uh whatever topic it is and then he would like try and respond to each of their points or whatever else and then when it came to him for their turn again they would just repeat themselves there'd be no addressing anything you can't even catch them right and um it was really frustrating and then you have like youtube debates would evolve and change and different people doing different things and then you have different rules and i know that a lot of people feel like they have the solution for how to create the perfect debate but um debates don't typically go really well when you have two very opposed positions that have been developed over a long time like it's i think people kind of idolize the idea of it just going like people you know present any reasonable position the other person will be reasonable and then it will be concluded one of you was right one of you was wrong because i don't even what what even efab debate has gone what you would call well because the the favorite ones people usually pick majorly and not so great debate guy but it's not like those went well they were the like it was more funny right and you know the whole point of the debate is to have the idea battled over instead of it being uh two one sided and i feel like we we managed to nail getting as much out as we could today in both attack and defense it reminds me kind of the the mandalorian one and uh i i think that a lot of people are probably frustrated with how it was a little bit chaotic and it wasn't you know the structure we went for was pretty much chronological and uh a laxed sort of moderation with jumping in where we wanted to and where we could probably help clarify but i don't know we'll have to see how everyone reacts to it how everyone discusses it through it all i don't think what i was trying to make a point with that is like you know i know some people gonna be like oh you should do the um the the timed responses or the uh you stop anybody that goes anywhere near going off topic it's just not what we want to do it's way too formal way too official we want it to be free form because most of the time that's what efab is is very informal and uh say for example one of you wanted to just like bring it a point about uh something in another film that kind of relates what you just want to bring it home we just go like nope not allowed to do that you're like oh all right you know when it's supposed to be much more friendly like i said so complicated to know exactly how and when to um moderate and i just i just don't think that maybe people have a lot of higher expectations of exactly how a debate should go and uh you know we we we try to just make sure that the ideas are out eventually even if it takes a million years um well as someone who's used to very contentious political debates that that degrade down into people calling each other retards and assholes and gays i thought this went pretty well you know that yeah yeah you all are gay retards so i i think the i mean i assume what bothered people was just that it seemed like we would go in circles in circles in circles uh and i i i guess the only solution the only moderating solution that you could possibly maybe do for the future is you know if you feel like we're just repeating ourselves you just say okay you say your point you say your point let me just move on and just disagree you know right i mean the only thing i could think of that you could do i feel like we all were trying to spot when that was happening and trying to smooth out where we could but everybody you know it's all literally live really good look i i was in a debate where i didn't really moderate adam moderated a debate between vosh and sargon and all anyone ever did because vosh just yelled at sargon like a dick the whole time was just people saying adam you didn't moderate well enough so that's that's what they always do more don't let them get you down oh well this is the thing like you know we could ask the genuine question is like does does the e-fab fandom want us to stop doing debates if they do it's like it's fine but it's like you know or they'll be like no you can do it this way and it'll improve it it's just like trust me the like the very open freeform way is the way we're gonna have to do these like there's no we're just not gonna mean rise is just not gonna buy the whole like five minutes five minutes ten minutes ten minutes thing yeah that's stupid yeah that's not gonna work yeah we because again the worry of gish galloping not that someone may you know it could be an accident or it could be because they have to fill that five minutes they're just like i don't know i'll just listen more stuff natural that's what natural yeah that's what always happens in those time to base just gish galloping and i just feel like we can you know bounce back fall back fall back fall with the point then we finally get down to the the nub of it and then one side maybe concedes one side doesn't know the go yeah agree to disagree and i just feel like that's it can take 10 hours but i think it's worth it i don't know i thought these streams were all about length anyway so oh yeah i saw have it on everyone knows that uh let's go and go someone an hour ago posted like we there's no need to spend seven hours on the phantom menace and i was just thinking that's like wow what why is that an arm smaller yeah it's like the opposite if i if i make a series for phantom menace it's gonna be longer than seven hours just just fyi it's gonna happen uh and if i'm also are you planning a series do it well this is the thing my my plan is to do tfa then tros and then i'm not sure if i want to do the ot or the prequel trilogy first but i want to do all of them eventually they're really great for jumping off into talking about just writing in general like um go ahead oh i was just gonna say that if i was gonna do a prequel movie would probably be a series it would probably be about um decisions that george made that felt i think felt short i think it'd be a lot less contentious than this actual debate i found that interesting yeah i didn't think it was gonna be really hard to have that kind of discourse but i guess people are really really sensitive about this of course i'm gonna make what i'm gonna do is i'll after my current project's done i'm gonna make a two-hour presentation on the death sticks guy i feel like i don't even flesh out what do you do you want to buy some death sticks um but yeah i you know there's always room for improvement for moderation right and uh same for because i know that there's gonna be like a glib's gonna be uh you know vilified quite a bit probably we'll have to try and calm that down immediately but i think we all will to a degree you know i knew that i knew that was gonna happen when i got into it so it's fine it's it's totally you can send your hate to me instead of glib i'll take it all well i just i just feel like this is this is totally normal because uh you have you know say for example we have a six-man podcast of people who like joker they just all like joker and then you have a video that's like joker's bad because he hates black people that's just there you go you know what's happening with that it's gonna be fun because all six people think that's ridiculous blah blah but then when you have two people who are staunchly against the prequels two people who are staunchly four are the two people who are looking to just try and make sure everyone's following on some kind of track is this recipe for disaster in some ways but also to get them points out there that maybe people haven't heard uh both attacked and defended right i just think it's worthwhile and um the format is uh exhaustive for sure and i know there's stuff for everybody but i think it's worthwhile that's that's pretty much what i'm saying yeah that um we'll we'll see me and like i said me and rags will do um uh a super chat sort of thing and maybe in the opening of it we can talk check out the feedback and uh talk about what what might happen going forward who knows where are we gonna talk about we'll talk about how sitch ruined e-fat let rags talk talk rags go i have so many notes and one of these days maybe maybe for the next uh the next e-fap that we do the little mini maybe that we released after this i don't know i got all these great notes oh well i was i was gonna say me and me and rags we watched uh we watched the whole all the prequels in prep for this so we've got a you know we had we decided to take some notes so talking about it you know so but we had to be we try and be impartial i feel like so we'll be like no you were defending the no you were attacking the prequels like there were times where you were attacking and defending so yeah we were doing both where i felt it was i did feel like i was at least doing more defensive work but i didn't mean to i was just trying to you know match everything and besides half of this stuff i was curious about like i was i was like wait is that how that works is that how stupid that was or is that how smart that was i don't know you pointed out two points where we were wrong and i thought that was really good because it was it was satisfying that it was cool that george had thought of something that i thought was an error but he actually was ahead of me and i didn't know that i don't think that's a point that's a lot of that by the way you see i think it was never wrong i'm never wrong about anything i saw two points that were that were corrected that's all okay well either way uh tfa pot three is what do you agree with disagree with what you remember the prequels yes i don't think i was you were just about to say something oh i'm curious what's happening here i don't i don't even know i don't i actually don't know what we're about to say it rags i i legitimately don't know what you're talking about and we were saying something about your notes and then they were all talking over you what what was it oh it's just i was just going through my notes i saw these things i was just i think i will say i think it's surprising that there were some of these that i was almost uh certain that glib and sitch would bring up that they didn't and some that they did that we did i guess we wouldn't have brought up it's interesting how two sets of people can watch the same movie and be like ain't only critical about it and they can both come up with kind of different things yeah they find sure between the two yeah a lot of them so why do you hate the freaks why don't we find another yeah let's spend another 10 hours too many women we'll have me and rags fist is anomaly in ado while glib and sitch moderates there you go i like that like i said i'm i'm more for you know this is i don't think that this one out of all of them i don't think it was written very well but i mean i was playing devil's advocate because i as much as i don't think it was written very well i do like the movie see that's the thing that i like the ideas of the movie and and i hate the execution of it and and i don't think that that point was part of the i didn't think i had the ability to make that point or any of the points that were attached that because the writing in and of itself is much more specific than the the movie the movie has many more moving parts to it than just the writing and my astonishment was when i was reading tpm i didn't i there were some there were some plaholes we went over the plaholes but i was surprised at how it's it seemed to be written better than some of the choices to present it were and that was something that was shocking to me that the visuals were worse in some areas like the the blue screen backdrop of the windows in the palace and some of the clean design of the the environments just looked so fake and i was like wow that that had a huge influence on me in my opinion over the writing even though i felt like the writing wasn't very good like the i core ideas were good writing an execution i felt like i was lacking but the writing was still a little better than like the actual the material manifestation of it um sure yeah so i meant i was just gonna say tfa pot three is on the way okay like everyone's always like it's on the way i'm working on it it's like at an hour and 40 minutes completed tizems still going every day editing at this whole time i know right what makes you think i wasn't you couldn't see the screen at all times get away the motivation was so bad marco was working on a video simultaneously how long is it gonna be in this entirety more my guess right now is gonna be a conservative three hours but it's between three and three and a half like i don't know yet because it's hard to tell but uh it's a long boy it's 30 i think it was like 34 000 words and my average is 10 000 per hour so that's three hours and 40 minutes i guess no three thousand what's 40 percent of an hour like 20 minutes 25 24 minutes yeah there you go three hours and 24 minutes that's the assumption um and i'm just i'm hacking away at it i'm gonna be very happy when i finally get to release it um as for efap batwaman they're on the way the new editor is getting uh getting settled we've got two more to watch we're gonna be setting that up soon enough i think like i said me and rags will record offline a mini for super chat tomorrow because uh we've got too many built up and i i do apologize for not doing the ones tonight i'm just uh brain melty cheese poop um we will we will absolutely get to them and i'm gonna try and release uh return of the king again it's it got claimed like 17 times over and re-rendered but it's been safe now for a couple of days again so we're gonna give it another shot folks you don't have to re-watch it i'm just trying to get a vision that stays up i know you've seen it like three times splitting it up oh it's it's only like it's not that long and it often gets claimed like after a couple of days of being live it's really fucking annoying that's real weird um but yeah i don't know uh if anyone else wants to say anything before i'm actually gonna end it they'll end the stream this time so yeah anything else i've missed what i was gonna say no everybody have a good night and stay safe and healthy and we're socially isolate yes um thank you all oh they said what time tomorrow so we'll record it offline it'll probably upload the day after or whatever once uh we figured out hopefully there's no copyright stuff in this so we should go straight up thank you all very much for uh for watching we will check out all the super chats uh like i said tomorrow thank you very much for the generous donations and for all the guests who stayed through this grueling 10-hour stream to discuss the phantom menace is that how you thought you'd be spending your life 10 years ago i don't know if you told yourself that you're gonna debate the phantom menace for 10 hours i don't know it doesn't sound like me they said what is this night in my world i'm living in yes i uh i never thought that uh i would be you know arguing it as an old man i guess that's reminiscent of the older era of star wars and and there's there's there's so many people that uh i guess it's like the division between the people that the plinket reviews were like a breakthrough and then people that watched those and were like he's wrong about this and that and all that and i'm sure there's a there's a discussion there but it's you know that's for another time so the prequels came out uh like about 20 years ago right so you understand this conversation is going to happen for the sequels 20 years from now no no no i'll tell you that one of the sequels were actually good and a bunch of assholes on the internet just made everyone think they were bad damn straight no i think that's gonna be i don't think they're gonna have enough string to sort of make that rope that makes sense i'm gonna say how do you even argue that it's impossible we'll see 20 years from now we'll see who's no no no reason i say that is because like they're they're defending a corporate entity that adopted an ip rather than the original creator who it won't be it won't be us it won't it won't be us that's true sorry i i promise you it won't happen that way it'll be easy to shoot down sure though there will be there will be there will be a debate 10 years from now on some whatever youtube is at that point hollow tube uh that's gonna be some railos arguing with some really logical tisms that were born growing up with efap like hey listen to mauler and the gang you know that's how you learn yes because efap is where you'd be convinced to like the sequels oh completely no no no no no that that'll be the other team oh that'll be the other it'll be somebody that watched efap growing up versus a relo um yeah all right uh yeah the vote ended with the yeses staying exactly the same and the undecideds no sorry the nose staying exactly the same and two percent of the undecideds went to yes so uh yay we got that two percent ah cue the victory music it means everything that two percent everything okay you are defeated oh and one last thing does everyone here agree that the prequels soundtrack uh uh fantastic oh not just the soundtrack sound design fucking yeah absolutely ben bird is a genius uh john linds is a genius all that's genius it's that's not the problem hey that's not what i asked it's fine that's not what i asked it's it's bloody brilliant right it's bloody brilliant i loved it everybody get along there we go all right uh good night everybody we shall see you next week i suppose oh well when the mini comes out so see you then toodles another happy landing happy landing good night