 not be suitable for younger years because we're going back to in 1985, July the 8th of 1985, when a priest from Ross Common, Father Niall Malloy, was killed in what are still mysterious circumstances. He was killed in the master bedroom of Kilcorsie House, a 23-room manor near Clara in County Offaly, and it was a death that shocked and fascinated the country. Well now there's a new book called The Killing of Father Niall Malloy, and it's written by TV documentary producer Sharon Lawless and Marisa Fagan, a journalist of 20 years, and they delve further into the case. They test evidence old and new and they follow the money trail and take a long hard look at the available facts and testimony. Well, Sharon Lawless now joins us on the line. Sharon, good afternoon. Good afternoon John. Now take us back to July of 1985 and take us back to, I suppose, the three central characters in this, four if you include Father and Niall Malloy, sorry, the three really being Richard and Therese Flynn, and then a father Niall Malloy. What was the connection between the three of them? Richard and Therese were a married couple. What was the connection to Father Malloy? Well, they were all involved in show jumping as teenagers, as children and teenagers. Both Richard and Therese lived in Galway, and Father Malloy grew up just outside Roscommon Town, and particularly Therese or Therese and Father Niall as teenagers competed and were very successful in, you know, Jim Canas, Tony shows, all of that kind of thing. And Richard also took part on occasions. So really as teenagers they would have known each other from that circuit and that was really the the biggest thing they had in common throughout their lives. Okay, so we're sort of part of the horsey set, if you like. Yes, exactly. Now on the night in question, it was the night after a big wedding, is that correct? Yes, that's right. Richard and Therese's daughter Maureen had married Ralph Parks from Limerick on the Saturday of that weekend, and then the following day they had lunch in Coorcy House for whoever was still around, and it was that night that Father Malloy was killed. It's not in question that Richard and Father Malloy had a falling out and that Richard struck them, and it went because this came out in trial. Yes, and that was that was said by Richard on the night, you know, as soon as the guards arrived, he admitted to being the culprits and said that he had hit Father Nile, so there was no question of that. He was admitting to it on the night in question in the morning in the early hours of that morning, so there was no question of anything else being entertained at the time. Therese was the only witness and she she was taken off to hospital, so the the guard didn't get a chance to actually chat to her that night. Yes, that's correct. She was removed from the scene by the family GP and good family friend Dr Sullivan from Coorbegan. He had been called to Coorcy House at about two o'clock in the morning and he confirmed that Father Malloy was dead, and at that stage Therese was reportedly hysterical and her daughters were trying to calm her down, so at about three o'clock or so he decided to take Therese to Tullamore Hospital and two of her daughters went with him, so the guards weren't called to the scene until a quarter past three and the first guard arrived, or at least the first guard was called and so Therese had already left the scene at that point, so she was never forensically examined and I know her her nightclothes were taken from her when she was in hospital, they were handed to the guard, but she wasn't questioned on the night and she wasn't at the scene when the guard arrived. Now there was a trial after all of this and also an acquittal which actually conflicted with a subsequent inquest, so there's all sorts of layers to this and really I suppose more questions and answers to this day and all sorts of inconsistencies and and throw into it then there's there's you know accusations that that maybe Father Malloy was having an affair with Therese and also a lot, well there were there was money involved as well, explain that. Yeah I mean the first thing that really you know went around the country at the time and this was pre any you know church scandals or clerical abuse scandals, so the idea that a priest was found dead in the bedroom of a married couple you know the obvious conclusion and it was entertained at the time was that he was having an affair with Therese and Richard found out about it. Now we have found absolutely no evidence at any point that that was the case and that was denied by Richard Flynn at the time and I think in conversation with with different people we know members of the family it was denied as well and there definitely was no evidence of that and I think that was one of the biggest things that we managed to achieve within the documentary was to look at all of that and to examine what evidence there might have been and to dispel that rumour which I think would have put the the minds of the Flynn and Malloy families at ease but you know what happened subsequently was just nothing short of bizarre as you said yourself Therese, I mean there are more questions than answers in this case and what we've tried to do is to raise those questions and find answers and to find the facts of it as well and because over the past 37 years there have been loads of rumours, there have been twists and turns and it has grown arms and legs and really what's necessary is to get back to facts of it because it can't move forward without that but it is a very very complex case. Father Malloy was very popular he was a very sort of a gentle manner about him and and was very well liked and respected and popular no way controversial. Absolutely yeah and universally liked and respected you know we expected throughout this whole process between the research for the documentary and the book that we would have to come across somebody who didn't have that opinion of him and we didn't you know even people who may have had the odd run in with him for whatever reason and you know would still have maintained he was a good man and he was very gentle and he was described to us as a gentleman and a gentle man and you know again we've done extensive research on this we've spoken to as many people as we possibly can to get all sides of the story and that has been the one thing that has been solid right the way through and he just seemed to be a lovely decent and solid human being. Tell us about the money is it true that Father Malloy had had loaned money to the Flens? Yes what happened was that Father Malloy and Teresa had gone into business around 1972 and they were involved in the buying and selling of horses they would buy young horses and produce them if the term I think that's used you know train them up and then sell them on and they were really highly regarded they were really good at what they did in that field but they also bought property and land and so they're quite a lucrative business and what happened from 1977 onwards we discovered was that Richard was in pretty dire financial circumstances we discovered a letter a legal letter that he had written to the Attorney General and the Land Commission where he wanted to sue them because they had taken over part of the land at Tuberhouse which was where he was living at the time and and awfully it was part of the Land Commission taking back land and giving it to farmers in the locality and that had happened in 1977 and it was a compulsory purchase order and at that stage I think it was about maybe seven years later he had threatened legal action against against that happening because it had meant that he had to pay higher interest rates he was in financial difficulties as a result he wanted compensation but there's no record of that going any further but his financial difficulties started long before 1985 his business at that time which was motor factors was you know quite healthy until about 1983 1984 when he started to go into debt so by 1985 the flints on the outside looked very wealthy very affluent they had the big house at the big wedding the big marquee they were they were really strapped for cash they were in serious trouble and Father Malloy had got involved in a couple of property deals in their favor and the final property deal was to buy 30 acres of land at Kilcorsy from Richard and this was Teresa and Father Nile buying land that presumably Teresa already part owned from Richard and it was valued at let's say 30,000 pounds at the time the deposit was 24,000 pounds that was paid directly to Richard it wasn't paid into a solicitors you know account a solicitors client account it was paid directly to Richard because he was in trouble and that money then when the land commission turned down that sale it was conditional on the land commission approving it they turned it down and Father Nile could never get that money back and it was a huge amount of money at that time and we know that there were other land deals that preceded that and where Father Malloy was passing over money or buying things and to give Richard more money so we reckoned that up to 100,000 pounds was what Father Malloy was owed and at that at the time of his debt but of course there's there are no records of that because everything disappeared most of what you've been chatting about was dealt with really well in a good documentary an excellent documentary that was on two parts last year on RTE and it also referenced the the trial obviously at the end because Richard Flynn faced it was taken to trial and was cleared of manslaughter and unusually on direction by the judge to the jury it was unbelievable and you know from talking to people who were in the the legal system at the time maybe starting their careers who will you know keeping an eye on this case who have now progressed through you know retired judges and people who are around at the time I mean their take on it was that it it brought the whole judiciary into you know disrepute because of what he did now you could argue that technically you know he could do this he could do that but I think there's overwhelming opinion and thought that he was completely wrong to do what he did and as the inquest proved about a month later the testimony that was accepted that was given in evidence and accepted by Judge Frank Rowe and the basis on which he he acquitted Richard Flynn was completely overturned by the results of the inquest I mean at the trial they painted Father Nile as being you know angry and aggressive and it was this you know uncontrollable anger that made him attack Richard Flynn and it was so uncontrollable that he brought on a heart attack on himself and he had a heart attack and hit his head on the way down and nothing to do with Richard Flynn and that's the basis on which he was acquitted whereas the inquest a month later said absolutely not he was beaten to death he died from head injuries that were inflicted and but at that stage nothing could be done so it was just totally bizarre and you know to this day there are members of the judiciary who think that that should never have happened but that one action has changed everything you know it has meant that that court case took place Richard Flynn couldn't be tried again even though subsequent legislation you know would have would have fixed that except it wasn't applied retrospectively so it's almost like you know for every step forward there are two steps back in this case and so that could never be overturned and it meant that that everything was kind of tied up there was nothing else that could be done so in your opinion is there enough new evidence to for this case to be re-examined and or or what what it is to be done what what do you think is a way forward I think the only thing that's possible now because it has been reopened and there was a guard a reinvestigation in the 2010s and that was very detailed and they did meet with many more people who were never questioned at the time many more witnesses but uh you know after that investigation that report was submitted to um Dominic McGinn SC and he wrote a report based on that and the while there are there are several flaws within that report the conclusion that he reached was that because people have died in the meantime because all the forensic evidence has been lost are disappeared and because people can't be compelled to speak um that there was no point in having a further investigation because it just wasn't possible um now as it turns out the only way to address that is to have a commission of investigation and that term kind of frightens us because we think of the millions that have been spent in commissions of investigations over recent years but this would be quite straightforward a commission of investigation would mean that the retired guardi who worked on the original case could be questioned under oath um at the moment they can't be even the serious crime review team couldn't question retired guardi um the witnesses on the night who gave their um statements through their solicitor um can be forced to speak under oath the guardi do not have the power to um to force them to give another statement at this time and whatever happened to that evidence could be pursued because there should have been you know like a a chain of evidence somebody was in charge of that evidence and again whoever was in charge of that evidence could be questioned under a commission of investigation and the only reaction that there was from the authorities from the documentary I mean you know I thought after spending so long doing the documentary that there would be a huge reaction from the authorities because of the injustice the only thing that happened was that Martin Ferris from Sinn Féin raised the question of a commission of investigation in the door a few weeks later and and he was told well because the evidence has gone missing because you can't force people to speak and because other people have died you know there's no point in doing anything else but in fact that's exactly what a commission of investigation would fix so it's a little bit like the computer says no and it's very clear that there seems to be no appetite whatsoever to do that and to pursue that but it's the only way that this case can ever be closed or concluded um or that justice can be served and it is there it is available um so a commission of investigation is the is the only way forward it's the only way to fix the anomalies within the case and that is to get people to speak well there it lies to this day and you know maybe the documentary has moved things forward a little bit and maybe the book will do even more the the family of Father Malloy have campaigned for justice for years are looking for answers and looking for the truth but if you want to read more into it if you want to find out more the book is called anatomy off and injustice the killing of Father Nile Malloy and it's out now Sharon Lawless thank you very much thank you John here what's the story with Ruth and her zero alcohol beer maybe she's doing dry jangery she's a bit late