 Scheduled at quarter to 11, so for you folks that have gotten on, that have been waiting diligently for us, thank you very much for waiting and we'll move right into our next issue. It's committee discussion with you ag folks that work with farmers every day and we've got some farmers on as well, different ones, but we want to hear from you and your thoughts and ideas and what we what else we can do to help with with the issues that we have facing all of us. So I think as Heather is Heather on the screen, she's the first witness. I am on. I'm setting up a little homeschool this this moment. Can someone go before me for a second and I can go after I've got Flint trying to do his math here. Yeah. Well, if you want to come on a little bit later, that's fine. Heather is Jackie on. Well, I guess we'll go to Joe. Joe, I know you're on there somewhere. Yeah, thanks Bob. Thanks, Senator Starr and the committee. I want to really thanks. Thank you guys for all the hard work that this is all bringing forward to you. And thank you that you're diligently working on working through a lot of very difficult proposals. And I'm just just trying to keep my farm just trying to keep the farm running in this time frame has been really going, you know, really difficult. So it's like, I can't even imagine the guy trying to help us all out and how you can keep it all going. There's a lot of things that the dairy industry, you know, we're not we're not saying anything that isn't already known. We need to have the support. We need support for those farmers that are devastated by the decrease in pricing. I have a lot of concerns about even the livestock industry that, you know, with if a lot of the dairies end up having to call 10 or five or 15% of their herds, how's that going to affect the livestock industry going forward? I'm hearing from a lot of beef farmers that, you know, they, they're really concerned about that they're concerned that they can get into the marketplace and into the slaughterhouses and then to keep it going. A lot of other issues that are out there. I think the agency and the governor have done a fantastic job over the course of this whole pandemic and trying to keep us all informed, keep us safe. It's a very difficult position for all of them. So the overall impact I see on farmers is just devastating. Yes, I heard you earlier, Senator Starr, that we may come to a point where our local product is is very valuable to our citizens and will be more maybe turn things around for the farms. But I'm going to tell you right now that a lot of farms who sell the restaurants, a lot of farms who rely on that sales, are really have really taken a really big hit. The one of the, you know, the farmers markets have opened up, but there are some that may not open up to to help for some of these smaller farms that are out there. But the dairy industry has really got to have our help. And I've been on the phone every, I'm probably on a phone six days a week, six days a week just to talk about how do we help the dairy, how do we keep it going, where is USDA going to go with this when they make their final rulings. Let's hope that they can really put it all together. And I think the help that you're trying to do, it may not be, it may not be enough for some folks, but hopefully it'll help bridge this gap. I see some really, I've talked to a lot of greenhouses and nurseries, because one of the things is that we do on our farm is we have a greenhouse. We're very tiny, but we have a greenhouse and we felt the impact earlier on. But now that they're opened up, it seemed to have leveled off. Where I think you're going to see a really big hit is in anybody doing agritourism. We work with some resorts here and they are closing off anything that has to do with public meetings in the summer. So they're cutting out a lot of their agritourism, which I think is going to be devastating. Farm stands, hopefully we had to, we switched the direction early on and went to an online store. I think a lot of people I'm talking to up here have gone that same route. But where it goes and where it ends, no deal. We're really, really, really devastating to see some of these smaller farms. I think you're going to lose a lot. So is there anything, Joe, that I mean we're trying to work with dairy and get that on the short-term list of payouts. We're spending quite a lot of our time on that. Is there, is it too early to tell about other small vegetable farmers what might fit into the second stage of payment of some kind to help with? Or is it too early to tell on that? I think anybody that has their business, which is really around local restaurants and stuff and who have singled out that kind of niche, I don't think it's too early to know that they're going to hurt. As far as the rest of us go, I think there are some bills that just got passed that's going to help local producers, I think, get to the marketplace. But it's still too early to see whether that's going to be helpful and where our mark and where all the local communities start to support local farms. But I do think the hit that people are going to take is in the agritourism section. And we've been increasing, especially some a lot of the medium and smaller farms have been increasing their agritourism piece. I think it's really, it's going to be devastating for that group. I mean, how many, how many resorts are even going to open this summer? Nobody really knows that for sure. And then how do you bring people in that are coming from hot spots? How do you, how do you feel safe bringing people in that will potentially have been, you know, affected and you don't even know and how do you keep yourself and your family and your friends and your community safe? So I think that that piece is going to take a hit. No one's taking a hit. I don't, I don't know if anyone, I'm not going to say no one, but I don't know if anyone's going to take the hit that the dairy did. And I think that, you know, having you concentrate on that has been a big deal and it and it should be a big deal to our state and actually nationally. I've been on a few calls nationally, but the dairy industry definitely the biggest hit on this whole thing. But I do think if you're looking at the effect going forward for all agriculture, all agriculture is going to take some kind of hit. Well, thank, thank you, George. Are there other committee members that have questions for, for Joe? I've not. Yeah, thanks very much, Joe, for your comments and hopefully Farm Bureau keep up their good work and help out where they can and keep us advised as much as, as you possibly can. So thanks again, Joe. Well, you're welcome. And I appreciate the opportunity to be on today and, you know, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of local workers that are affected by these farms. And I think you're doing a lot of good work. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, we don't get too many. Thank yous. I mean, you know, Senator, I mean, I, the we're all getting used to these zoom meetings now. I don't know. You know, we don't have to go anywhere anymore, right? I mean, getting people in the room is very difficult, you know? I mean, I personally, I'd like to take a ride down the road, I think in your meeting nowadays. But, you know, it is what it is, right? Yeah, it's kind of nice to sit around the little committee room and bump shoulders and elbows and still have a good conversation. I'd trade this for that little room any day. But thanks again, Joe. Heather, are you back? Yeah? Good, I guess. Yes, I've got permission now. He's back. Oh, good. I'm glad you got permission. Welcome, Heather and hope to see you. His name is Flint and he's doing his his math and he gave me permission now that I can ignore him for a minute and talk to you folks. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for being with us. Yes, thank you. Thanks for having me. And I know, like others, we appreciate the time to be able to talk and connect with you folks. As Joe mentioned, you know, we certainly appreciate that opportunity. And I understand how you feel sometimes feeling like you have a pretty thankless job. And you only hear from people when there's complaints. No, I was just I was just right. No, I know, but I know that feeling for sure at times and I can definitely appreciate that. And one of the things that I, you know, through extension, we have not stopped operating either. We definitely are out there trying to continue our work with the farming community. And one of the things that I said to my whole crew was I just need to know that you're there with me, which is a hard thing to know when we're always talking at each other through a computer. Yeah. Oh, you know, I think that's important for you folks to know that we're also there for you and and providing, you know, at least a conduit of feedback and information from, you know, the field to you folks so that you can help as best as you can. And I think everybody realizes that you can't do everything. There's a lot, you know, of hemorrhaging going on right now everywhere. And it's hard to stop it all. So I think everybody appreciates everything that you can do. I think one of the things that I'm hearing a lot from the farming community is is is along those same lines. So this isn't a hard thing. I don't think for us to do and it doesn't take a lot of money, but it's knowing that their state is behind them. And I think that that has been a message that I have I've heard from from farmers at the very beginning, they felt left out when there was talk of, you know, essential businesses and essential workers. Agriculture wasn't immediately addressed. And I think that really that hurt people a lot. You know, it's that, you know, that's that's really a social piece. And unfortunately or fortunately with this whole COVID-19 pandemic, this whole feeling of we have to be with each other. We have to be behind each other, supporting each other. I think that farmers felt right at the get go that that they weren't thought of as essential to the state. And I think that left a little bit of, you know, sort of that feeling in their guts. And then, you know, quickly. People started to hear that they were essential. And I think that that's just one one thing that I hope people can take away with today is that it doesn't have to always be about money and getting funds out the door to people that need it, but letting them know that we know how essential they are to our economics, our community is probably the most critical thing that we can do right now. And even today, I got a call from a farmer saying that they felt that that they were, you know, that that people keep talking about forgetting about dairy. And I know that's not at all the conversation that you're having, but some people are feeling that way, that they're, you know, people keep saying, telling them dairy farmers. And I see Bill Rouse on here that they're a dying industry. And for those people that are there doing it every day, they don't necessarily look at it that way. And so to keep hearing that, it's like telling a student that they'll never, you know, they'll never excel because they're not smart enough. So I think it's, you know, it's it's some of the language that we're using and the and the the conversations that we're having that are are are hurtful to people. And I know this isn't these aren't the big ideas that you want. But these are really the simple small things that we can do to let our our farmers know that they are essential. And I have said this time and time again, that every farmer in this state, we don't want them to go anywhere. Because I think if I've I knew this before, I think other people are learning it now is that our, you know, global agricultural system is really efficient. But it's not resilient and there's no slack. And that's exactly what we're seeing right now, which is why some of our dairy farmers are really hurting. And really, that's, you know, the issue that we should be thinking about addressing and it doesn't stop the hemorrhaging. But thinking more about some of the things I heard people mentioning before is really critical to our future. You know, empty fields, I said this before, you know, empty store shelves are only a problem if there's empty fields. And there are empty fields right now, maybe not in Vermont, but other places. My sister-in-law works for Smithfields, believe it or not, in the Midwest. And, you know, they had a mass grave dug for 150,000 pigs last week. You know, those were to make it to somebody's table. So, you know, this is a huge issue that the country, you know, was grappling with now, which is going to be a food shortage supply. And the conversations that we should be having, you know, once we can get the hemorrhaging to stop is how do we feed our state and start building and making investments in the infrastructure that we need to do that and the farmers that we need to do that. And, you know, we are not ready for this in our state. We might be ready than most other states because we do have a lot of local production. But we could have more and we have a lot of excellent farmers ready and willing to step up to do that. But we don't have a path forward for them right now. You know, we have working lands grants, monies that I feel could be invested in local infrastructure. We're talking about putting millions of dollars of cash on the farms, which I certainly don't think any farmer would give back. But where is that going to bring us in the longer term? And where are we going to end up with really protecting our food security for Vermonters into the future? And again, these aren't the, you know, ideas right now to stop the hemorrhaging. But it's really the way we need to be thinking for the future. Some of the other things that I've heard, what Flynn? So I think that right immediate other people have brought up some of these things about building local channels for our food. And I mean, I'm a farmer, too, and I own a vegetable farm. And it's been a huge challenge. We can't buy cleaning supplies. We can't buy sanitizer machines. We can't buy sanitizer. You know, a lot of the supplies that we get to keep ourselves safe or to keep our customers safe, I just I can't get. And I'm ready to open my farm stand in a couple of weeks. And I'm really grappling with how we're going to be able to do that safely. So I feel like our farmers don't have a lot of the resources that they need to do that and figuring out how to put them first, you know, somehow grocery store to be getting wipes and things like that. But I can't get those for my farm stand. And and our farm stand, I know, is going to be far busier than it's ever been. You know, our CSA demand has tripled. The calls that we get for people wanting to know if we're going to be open, they view us as being safer and secure. But I can't even buy materials, you know, to make sure that it will be. So so that's one thing is do our farmers have the materials that they need the PPE for their employees? And then if they're telling, you know, to be able to protect them and their customers, that I think is a huge issue. At least I know it is for me. So I can only imagine it is for for everybody else as well. I think these small grants that you're talking about, I think that's what I heard. I mean, we probably could have used those a little bit earlier, you know, because it's costing me a couple thousand dollars, you know, which I'm willing to invest to bring my farm online. It wasn't money I was expecting to have to expend. So it's a little tough. I got to buy new coolers and things, you know, there are investments that we have to make to keep food flowing from our farm to our neighbors. And again, this goes back to recognizing the importance of this. We allow grocery stores to operate because they're feeding people, but we're not taking all the, you know, all the that same emphasis to keep our farms open so that they can feed people. And that this is huge. I know I'm talking a lot and I know there's a lot of others. But one last thing I want to add is, you know, back to this infrastructure investment for long term food security. We're definitely at a place where it's a great opportunity to do this. What I wonder, though, and we don't have the answer to this, and I'm trying to actually raise the money to do this is to really understand how consumers are changing their purchasing habits. And will those changes continue once the pandemic is over? Because if we do make investments in the local food system and farmers make investments, which they're trying to do now because they have more market, will that play out into the future or will everybody just go back to the way they did it before when it's all over? And I think that's a really important question that we should be trying to answer right now so that we can make targeted investments in local food production so that we have a secure food source for vermoners into the future. So I have so much more to say, but so so doesn't everybody else. And I'm happy to talk to anybody offline as well about this. But we we've got to be there for farmers. Sorry, one last thing. Don't forget that not every farmer is on the Internet or email. I work with so many farmers that do not have cell phones, believe it or not, and do not have Internet. And so information that is moving out to farmers really is through those mechanisms and and farmers are being missed and they need that information too. And I know I work for Extension, so that's my job. And again, I'm trying to address that. But, you know, this is something we should be thinking about. And here's my idea that we should already have in place, but we don't, is that, you know, similar to a school system that puts out their phone call when there's a snow day, we should have a phone set up system like that for our farming community so that they get a call or a text message if they have a cell phone when there's information that they need. You know, this is Anson Tebbets from the Vermont Agency of Agriculture wanting to let you know that, you know, there's federal assistance available for your farm. Please contact X, Y or Z so that you can enroll in this valuable program because a lot of farms are missing out on those because they they're not even receiving that information. So there's one thing we could do probably pretty quickly. All right, thanks. Thank you for the time. Sorry. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Heather. Have you have you checked, Heather, with the Ag Agency or the Health Department to see if they had any, you know, from the state to see if they had any extra sanitary supplies that farmers with the farm stands could could get hauled up? You know, I haven't. I know that there are in short supply everywhere, so I wasn't expecting that that would be an option. But I wonder how we could have a concerted effort, you know, amongst farmers and the state to basically say, you know, this is what we need to operate. You know, I had this whole plan to open our farm stand up and how I was going to do that safely. And then the minute I went to ULINE or Gemplers or, you know, all the Grangers, you know, there's there's nothing there. And so that that's out the door. I don't know. I don't know what to do. We we certainly can check on that. And through the extension, you know, the extension organization should be able to check on that pretty easy because I know the governor and in the health crew have been getting supplies in to take care of ish areas and businesses that are having a hard time getting those things. But anyways, thanks for your time. Did committee members have any questions for Heather? No. Well, thanks. Thanks a lot, Heather, and keep up the good work. Thank you. Is Jackie Folsom with us? If not. Hi. Yes, I am. Hey. Yeah. Good morning. Good morning. I guess we were we were kind of wondering. We've heard like a few of the fairs have been canceled. And wondering what was happening there and how things were going or not going too good. Thank you very much, Senator, and thanks for giving me some time to chat. I know that I've been David on Channel Three and then the story has been picked up in a couple other venues in the media have talked about the challenges with our fairs. And first of all, I would like to thank you for your continued support, both in letting us come in and talk with you and share their experiences and also for the support for the stipend and the capital grants, which we are watching as we go into FY 21 and hope that that money will be there, although I totally understand the pressures that are on the general fund and they and all the money coming in. Right now, the fairs that have canceled include the Maple Festival, Bradford Fair, Addison Fair and Danville Fair in Vermont, Lancaster Fair and most of main fairs have been canceled. And many of the New Hampshire fairs, which we consider sister fairs because we work with them, have also been canceled. We are waiting for a couple of the fairs. So Bradford was the first one out of the gate in the beginning of middle of July. So the next fair on the dock, it would be LaMoyle and they are having a board meeting this week to discuss what they're going to do after that comes Franklin County and they moved their dates this year because of a challenge with their rights company. And now they're they're waiting, they're going to have a meeting. I think the end of this month, maybe mid June to decide if they're going to continue. One of the challenges for the fairs continues to be the availability of their ride companies. And we're watching this, for example, Champlain Valley will probably make a decision on June 1, whether to host their fair or not. And they have already, along with many of our other fairs, lost a lot of money due to the inability to host extracurricular activities, if you will, like festivals, the home show. CVE has soccer that usually meets in their buildings up there. And they share a ride company with two fairs, one in York, Pennsylvania and one in Erie County, New York. And that is the Straits Ride Company. It comes on railroad cars up out of Florida. And Kim Shea is really watching the situation because if these are one of those two fairs cancels, there is a strong probability that the Straits Ride Company won't find it economically feasible to come up for the remaining two fairs with a big hole in the middle of their route. So we're concerned about this because Governor Cuomo has made the comment that he doesn't think that the Syracuse Fair will be opening and that's around Labor Day and we don't know how that will affect the rest of the fairs. I don't need to remind you folks that one of the things among all the money that the state is losing this year, if none of the fairs in Vermont occur, we normally put over two million dollars into the community with ads and purchases of local food and hiring local people. So that that would be a two and two point three million dollar hitch is based on last year and the six percent sales tax that we receive off of the ride is about one hundred and fifteen thousand dollars. So although we do get some wonderful funding, which allows our fairs to start, such as the stipend fund, which is about ninety five thousand dollars sitting right now in the in the agency of ag budgets. We put back in a lot more than we receive and we are very grateful for the support. I know when we were in there so long ago when we were all working in the state house in February, when the fairs came in to say hi and talk about their programs, they talked also a lot about their capital grant funds. And several years ago, we had urged them to get into a three to five year plan for those capital grants. So it was just not hit or miss, let's do this this year and this next year. And many of them do have those type of plans that include lighting fixtures, updating their lighting so that they can go from the regular lights to LED or or burying their lines underground. Some of them have made significant improvements, including safety improvements to their grandstands. And so they have just received those checks for this year and are busy working to see how they can stretch them in the case of several fairs that have canceled. We did have a meeting last week with all with all of the fairs in attendance except three and we got updates from everyone. It's my understanding that Deerfield Fair and Guilford Fair will probably cancel, although I haven't heard for sure. And we're still waiting to hear from the rest of them. Having the Addison Fair cancel was a tough one to hear, because that's right in the middle of everybody's of the season. And we were really hoping that some of the ones later on would be able to continue. But I'm not sure that's going to be the case. Caledonia Fair will be one of the latest ones to decide. I think in mid June and I think Rutland Fair has got the same type of problem with their rides company. It comes out of Washington County Fair and Field Days in New York State. And that rides company only plays the Vermont State Fair and Rutland, so if if Washington County Fair cancels, then there's a good chance that Rutland may have to follow suit. So we're hoping against hope. I should say that Tumbridge is our last fair and they're deciding. I believe it's their late June meeting. So we're waiting to hear about that one, but it isn't looking good. One of the things that we decide that they decided to do at the meeting was to forego dues for this year. The dues is a part of their stipend, which is based on their on a formula that the state uses, and we're very, very concerned since there's so many fairs that have canceled that if the stipend money is in there, we're not quite sure how it will be distributed. And we're we're working with the ag agency to try to figure that out. But oddly enough, at this point, as a trustee of the Eastern State Exhibition, that fair is still insisting that it's going to go on in September. So we shall see about that. But we hope that there will be a fair or two that will be open. I was already to send out the passes and the rack cards for the legislators and some of the other folks in state government so you could all enjoy our fairs this summer, but we'll have to wait and see. And maybe we'll have to talk about it as we come back in January and try to figure out our next best step. So thank you very much for the time. I wish I had something happier to say because we were really hoping that our fairs would be a shining light for fun and getting folks together this summer. But I'm I'm not sure that's going to happen. We will certainly keep you updated as to the decisions of the remaining fairs. Yeah, thank you, Jackie. Yeah, next next Thursday, I think it is. We're having our annual meeting at Eastern States. And I'm sure that there'll be a long discussion about whether the plan to open or or not open, of course, that's in September. So we'll we'll have to see one quick question on your capital grants fund. Will you will you move ahead with with the capital improvements? Or do you need to keep that money to keep the place like different fairs, you know, had above water? How how's that all working out, Jackie? Well, the capital grants can only be used for capital improvements that have a life of 20 years or more. So they cannot by statute and by the contract that they sign, use it for operating expenses, the stipend they can. And of course, I'm sure the committee recognizes that these fairs, even if they don't open, they still have insurance and electric and water and maintenance. And so I'm sure that that will be diverted on some of the fairs that won't be opening because normally that would have been used a lot for the premiums and the ribbons that are collected by the fairgoers who participate in the contest. But the capital grants, most of the folks when we reviewed them back in January, I believe the matching funds were there and the grants were expended because they all have to have matching funds for that grant money, and I would anticipate that those grant those improvements would occur this year. But I can certainly get back to you with, in fact, I'd be glad to send a listing of what the grants were going to be used for and how the fairs are going to go forward with that. I think that's a fair question, but they can't use that money for operating expenses. Well, that why I raised the question is, you know, laws can be changed and amended. And and I didn't know if if you found that that if you could suspend or we could suspend that ruling or that law for like this year, if if it was really critical to, you know, maintain the structures of these facilities and, you know, say keep keep the lights on for another year. Some of these fairs have been going on for 130, 40, 50 years. It would be awful, really bad if they went in under for a simple language change that could allow that for one year, say. You know, Senator Starr, I really appreciate that thinking and I will check into that. I know that Rutland Fair, they were celebrating their 175th this year and given the challenges they've had down at that fair, we were really excited to think they were going to have a wonderful celebration. So let me go back to the fairs and find out what they were going to be using this for. And I think it would be something that if we could have a tweak in language for one year, it would be immensely helpful to them if they could redirect some of those funds. That's very generous of you to think about that. Well, the fairs, you know, they mean a lot to a lot of families and a lot of them honors and I don't think we have too many of them. And the ones we do have, we ought to be able to keep. And so if you could keep us informed on that before we leave Montpelier for the summer, that would be great. Any questions from the committee? No, if not, thanks a lot, Jackie, and keep up the good work. Andrea. Good morning, everybody. Morning. It's really good to see you all again. It's been a long time. I mean, I've been watching you, but. And I'm going to be really brief because I recognize that we don't have much time left in your schedule this morning, and there's a bunch of people after me. So, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to testify, really appreciate it. I also would add my thanks for the work that you're doing to try and figure out how we transform this moment of crisis into something that looks a little better for the future, for agriculture. I think that's a really critical lens to be looking at everything through is what can we do now that not only helps people in the crisis but also helps set people up to move forward to a place that's more sustainable and resilient? Because we know this crisis is going to last for a while. It may get worse in the short term. And there are other impacts that are likely to come down the pike. So I would just ask that as you work through this and figure out the details, constantly asking yourself the question, how does this help now, but build for the future? Beyond that, I'd like to say that Role Vermont wholeheartedly supports the proposal that you received from migrant justice. But I also would say that I believe at this point, given everything that I've heard, it may be preferable to deal with that issue separately from the ag relief package that you are trying to put together. I know that migrant justice is concerned and I understand the points that Senator Hardy has made and others have made about the limitations that you face on funding. But I also, in Role Vermont feels really strongly that this is an opportunity for Vermont to make a statement about the inequities that have become so, so visible. They were there before, but they've become incredibly visible during this crisis of the people who are being left out, the people who are suffering the most. And so I I would like to urge you to do whatever you can. And to also, for those of you who serve on other committees and certainly Senator Starr with your role in the Appropriations Committee to really ask the state to seriously look at how can Vermont take a stand and help the people who have been left behind in this whole crisis, which includes everybody who got cut out of the federal stimulus, not just the farm workers, which is really important, but also all of the other folks who are performing, in many cases, essential functions within the society, but are being completely left out of any kind of support. The other big thing is I definitely want to make sure that in the slicing and dicing of who's dealing with losses and who's dealing with impacts, we also be taking into consideration the innovative farmers who have, you know, right away been investing themselves both in times in terms of money, but also in terms of enormous amounts of time and effort to respond to this crisis and figure out a path for themselves. They have had to react quickly. I know it takes longer for the legislative process to work its way through, but let's not forget the folks who, you know, even though it may be on the surface that they are doing better now because they're selling more vegetables or they're getting more orders for their meat, they have made investments in order to be able to do that, and they're going to have to keep doing that. And that kind of takes me to my final point, which is that, again, thinking about lenses for you to look at all of these things through is we have to prioritize the local food system. Everyone needs it. Absolutely everyone in the state needs that system and we need that system to be stronger, more resilient and more capable of providing a significant portion of the food that people are going to need because we don't know what's coming down the pike. It's not looking good. I mean, the examples that Heather gave of the rolling effect of what's happening in the Midwest, it's hard to say how that's all going to play out, but we know we have incredible capacity in this state to produce milk and to grow meat and also to grow a pretty wide variety of foodstuffs. And there are a lot of people who want to help with this. There are a lot of people who need help in order to get into the game of helping our food system be more secure. And one small point I would just raise is I believe it was section nine of the bill that you're considering. And I look forward to seeing the bill once it's available because I definitely listened to everything Mike had to say, but it's hard when you can't see the language in looking at going forward. You meant the section nine mentions WELAB working lands, but I think Farm to Plate is already doing a lot of work on this. So I hope you will work them into that piece of the bill with the work they did on the ag strategic plan and the outreach that they're doing right now like to the meat producers and to the meat processors. They need to be part of that discussion as you figure out that piece. So I will stop there. I hope to have the opportunity to weigh in, at least virtually in the future on as you work this bill into final shape. But again, thank you for the work and thanks for the opportunity to participate. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Andrea. Any questions for Andrea from my committee? If not, we'll move on. Maybe, Margaret, you haven't been on at all. Since we've been home, maybe we should make sure and squeeze you in here. So would you like to go next? Sure. So I'm on call. So if I get a call, obviously, I'll just leave. But yeah, I want to thank the committee and the legislature in general for all the work that you're doing and trying to recognize what's going on out here. I think that the discussion about local food systems is important. I think that Vermont is way ahead of a lot of other states in supporting local food systems and making sure that we do connect our purchasers to our sellers. I do also think that there is a true value to having the dairy economy that we have here, because without large farms in Vermont, there wouldn't really be able to be the support systems for the small farms that are here or the distribution systems as well. So I do hope that whatever the committee considers and chooses to do supports everybody, all types of farming, all sizes of farming. It's it's really been of an important kind of of a web in Vermont over the years. And I think that that the strength of Vermont's agriculture is that we have a very broad diversity of farms out there. I know there's been quite a bit of discussion of trying to get dairy farmers to look more seriously at diversification. And I can guarantee you that even since the 80s, there's not been a dairy farm that doesn't think every single day about different opportunities to diversify or things that they can do to diversify, whether it's even the kind of cows that they have and the types of milk that they're producing, or whether or not they can sell compost or start a side beef operation or do more maple or whatever it is, they are all considering diversification. And just for some farms, it just it doesn't work. And they are traditional dairy farms that will survive any of these ups and downs. You know, I talk to many of them all the time. Obviously, it is a it's a really important industry. And we don't want to encourage our large dairy farms to go out of business because they support a lot of the pieces of this industry. They support a lot of the pieces of the industry that happened to during COVID-19 be shut down, whether that's the, you know, the large purchasers that are only buying 40 pound blocks of cheese or the school systems and restaurants, etc. But they are a really important part and that, you know, we love to support the smaller interconnected farms that are connected with their neighbors and buying products there. But that will not keep the majority of farmland open in Vermont. We need larger farms to keep these large tracks open and to keep the dealerships open and the the expertise available here as well. It helps pay for all of it. So it's a very complicated, intertwined web, but every single piece of it is important. And so that's the message that I'd like to give from the co-op's perspective is that every single one of their farms is important, whether they're a seasonal milking farm or they milk 4,000 cows. Every one of them are just as important as the other. Yeah. Well, thank you, Margaret. Any questions from the committee for Margaret? And if you have anything from the co-ops, Margaret, you want to present to us, just let us know and we'll work you in. All right, thanks. Thank you. How about we've got still two or three left. How about Maddie or you up? I'm ready. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you for the time and thank you to all the committee members for your work. I like Andrew said, I've been watching your conversations and really appreciate your the thought that you're putting into trying to give relief to some farmers. I have a lot of points to make, but I'll try to be brief and highlight the key ones since I know there are other folks on the agenda. First and foremost, I just want to point your the committee members attention to a letter that I submitted on behalf of NOFA Vermont this morning with five fairly specific recommendations from us in terms of where relief is most needed. I'll reiterate Andrea's point. We signed on to a letter along with Rollvermont and NOFA, excuse me, Migrant Justice and the Human Rights Commission in support of a relief fund for farm workers. I think that the key thing that I would like to highlight in addition to the fact that that fund should expand beyond just farm workers is that it really should also represent parity with the federal stimulus checks that were provided to American citizens. We think that it's fair and equitable for those payments to be up to the level of 1200 to adults and 500 to children, the same as were provided to citizens through the federal relief efforts. I don't really see a reason. I understand the budget challenges the state is facing, but if we're going to provide that relief, I think it should be equitable and all of the suggestions that we're putting forward are really putting being put forward in the frame of equity and justice. So that's pretty paramount for us. I also just want to say as a broad point, you'll notice in our letter that we recommend that any relief efforts that the committee brings forward be based first and foremost in principles of equity and justice. And when we say that, I think a lot of folks' first instinct is that those principles apply to folks who are often, you know, forgotten within our society, like these farm workers that we're talking about providing relief to. But in this context and in general, we are really also thinking of some of these dairy farmers who are really struggling right now and have been struggling for years under a pricing system that does not work for them. So I think, you know, it's important to remember, and I feel like the committee is thinking this way. And I appreciate it that one way of showing support to those farmers and doing so in an equitable way is acknowledging that the system is not working for so many and helping find and move towards solutions and opportunities that do work. I don't think that we're doing justice to those farmers when we don't put systems in place with funding to support them as opposed to just talking about their importance to our ag economy. I think we really need to put steps in place to move toward a more resilient system that that supports those farmers and addresses their needs within that. So one of the things that we called for in our letter is several dedicated funding streams. And I think there's a lot more conversation that can be had about this to support the diversification of Vermont's ag economy as a whole. And there has been a lot of work as I think maybe Andrea mentioned and Heather just mentioned in her comment that Farm to Plate really has put in a lot of work through the development of the ag strategic plan and the briefs to look at our ag economy as a whole and figure out, you know, where the gaps are and where we need to pull on levers to transition to a more resilient system. And I think some of the key pieces of that are funding support through WELAB for transition support and then substantially increasing capacity for business planning support and succession planning for farmers. I think I think I understand where the committee is coming from in tying relief payments to the idea of farmers pursuing some kind of transitions counseling. But that idea, frankly, just isn't practical right now because we don't have the staffing capacity in our farm viability service providers to provide that kind of counseling to all the farms to all the dairy farms in the state, some of whom also, you know, may be doing better than others and are in a good position to stay in dairy. Some of whom may really need that support, but we need a pretty significant amount of funding at the state level to build up our capacity to provide that service. And we have some specific numbers and a little bit of a specific plan kind of started to outline in our letter that I'd love for you to take a look at. And I know that probably Ella and Gus and Nancy from Farm Viability from BHCB will get into that, hopefully on Wednesday when they testify. But we do have some clear ideas. The other thing that I wanted to really mention is in terms of support for farmers other than dairies, there really is a need there. And I'll give some examples that I was able to get from farmers over the last several days around what some of those needs are, because I think there is kind of a misconception that farmers other than dairy are doing fine and folks have folks on this call already have touched on some of the ways in which that's not necessarily true. But I spoke with Bruce Hennessey, for example, from Maple Wind Farm this morning. They're a, you know, relative to the state, a fairly large livestock operation in Huntington. And he said that they are facing about a 15 percent increase in their processing costs, costs through their facility. And they're not able to pass those costs on to their consumers, either through their wholesale channels or direct to consumer. They have, as I think I've mentioned, pivoted to doing home delivery for a lot of their products and they're partnering with other farms to do that. And right now they're eating the costs of those deliveries because they know that their customers can't necessarily afford to pay for the delivery fee. So that's one example of a farm that would that has been facing significant costs that would need probably a substantial amount in terms of relief that, you know, may be higher than some other smaller farms and that also represents a really critical piece of our food supply infrastructure because they have a processing facility locally. So and another example that we've heard, which I think is illustrative is farmers who are who are operating CSAs who have seen expanding demand in large in a lot of cases are having to adjust the way they pack their shares. So rather than kind of the farmer's market style, pick up where the customers come to the farm and they go down the line and pick out what they want for their CSA share every week. That's not allowed because of social distancing requirements. So CSA farmers are having to actually individually pack all their shares. And we've heard from one farmer who thinks they're spending around twenty five hundred dollars a week to pack their CSA shares in this new way based on social distancing requirements. So that's just those are a couple of examples of the costs that we're talking about that some of these non-dairy and diversified livestock or vegetable producers are facing. So I think it's really important that we ensure access to relief funds for those farmers as well. And I would recommend also if there's a need from the committee to have a clear picture of kind of who those farms are, what the scales are and what the costs they're seeing are, I would recommend inviting Mark Canella from UVM Extension to share some insight to the committee. He might have some better numbers. But one suggestion also that came from our farmer services team for how to distribute those payments would be to do something similar to what you're considering and provide them on sort of a tiered basis based on annual sales. And it's just one idea it would need a lot more discussion. But I think there's potential that you could just sort of set a based on the annual average sales in a normal year and distribute those payments kind of across the board to those farms. I think the most important thing that I want to emphasize is that, you know, there are a lot of vehicles that could hold those relief funds for other farmers. And it sounds like you're proposing that they go through the agency of Ag, essentially. But we just want to make sure that there's not, you know, onerous paperwork that farms have to fill out in order to receive them because a lot of farms may not opt to do that if that's the case. And lastly, I just want to add well, two things really quickly. One is that we would really like to see the state supporting a couple of food access programs, which I've mentioned before, Vermonters Feeding Vermonters, which is a food bank program that purchases food from local farmers at market rates. That's a really excellent win win program right now because it supports farms who need, you know, access to markets. And it also supports increasing numbers of food and secure vermonters. So that's a key program to put some funding toward. And then NOFA ourselves have a couple of programs called Farm Share and Crop Cash that accomplish similar things. They provide a market rate for food to farmers. And one is a subsidized CSA share program. That's Farm Share. And that's a really critical one right now, especially based on the increasing demand for CSA shares. The other is Crop Cash, which is kind of a double year money incentive program that folk shopping at farmers markets with EBT or with Three Squares Vermont benefits, excuse me, can use to double their money. So a small amount of cash infused into those programs could really go a long way, both for farmers and food and secure folks. And then lastly, I just want to emphasize, and again, I'm sure VHCB will talk about this when they come in on Wednesday, but along with all of these, you know, larger, more long term and maybe new funding streams, I do want to emphasize, I think it's critical for VHCB to continue to be funded at their statutory level. It's that's a really critical program that especially Farm by Ability undergirds so much of the work that so many amazing service providers do in the state. So I don't want the the need for, you know, immediate relief to sort of take away from. I think you're done. You're your voice is messed up, Maddie. Are you there? Thank you. Hopefully you caught most of what I said until you froze up. Yeah. Thank you, Maddie. Are any questions for Maddie? Well, I was just not really questioned, but I appreciate the fact that no finance letter, which I think we got this morning. I'm not sure if I came in this morning or last night, put some numbers on some of the needs that we're addressing in terms of what kind of budget we might be talking about in terms of some of the diversification efforts and the expanded, you know, nutritious nutrition programs and what not give us an idea of what those things would cost. So I would suggest that committee members take a look at that letter because it helps put some things in perspective and shows that even small amounts of money in certain areas would make a big difference. Yeah. Thank you, Maddie. And we'll be in touch. So we had two more witnesses and we got about 20 minutes or a little better so we can get going with Brian or Bill to have a preference which one would like to go first. Bill, why don't you go and we'll wrap up with Brian. Hey, Mr. Chair, I just want to, before Bill goes, just wanted to say that both Anthony and I have a committee meeting at noon that we have to go to. So if we have to sign off, please don't take offense. We just have another meeting we have to go to. So just want you to know that. Yeah, I appreciate that. Nothing personal. Pardon? Okay. So don't take it personally if we bug out. All right. Hear me okay? You hear me okay? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. Well, Bill Raul, Chair of the Mount Dairy Producer Alliance. We represent dairies of all sizes. And thank you for the opportunity to talk to you this morning. We're having a pretty hard go, you know, but it's going fairly well. The soil's dry and we're getting planted. And I think we're in a pretty good place actually here in Vermont in this rural state. This isn't such a bad place to be. If you can imagine being in the city with three or four kids on the seventh or eighth floor of some building, it would look quite a lot different to you. So I appreciate where I am on the farm and work. Well, that's a daily chore and that's okay too. But I think after this is over, we're gonna see an influx of people. The people are so crowded in the cities, I don't know how they get six feet away from anybody. And they look at us up here and this looks like luxury to them. You're gonna see them show up, no doubt. Conventional dairy supplies two thirds of the milk produced in New England. And it goes to those cities in Southern New England largely I'd suppose that's where the bulk of the volume is consumed. And we've just really gotten to the point where we're having to recognize some things in a real sense. I mean, we've always talked about these things before but now it looks like it matters quite a lot more than just talk. And if you look at the $2.2 billion that of economic activity that conventional dairy dollar puts into the economy each year and the $3 million of actual working cash every day that goes into the economy, it starts to look like something real. If you look at our milk check, we're about $7 per hundred weight right now below where we were when this thing started and that leaves us short for the month. About $170,000 for the month were short in our milk check of what we should be getting or had been getting. So I don't mean to hurry you folks, I know you're doing good work and you're being deliberative but you're going to be a lot longer doing this before we say some money or you have an idea that you have something on the horizon fairly soon. Well, hopefully Bill in the next two weeks and we talked about this earlier, I think Chris raised that question and the short-term stuff, we've got to get that final together this week and get it out hopefully next week or shortly after but getting back to that in the timing, as of I believe last Thursday or Friday, we had Anson on, because we need to work in concert with the administration. Absolutely. They didn't have a whole lot to present to us and say, well, we pushed him along and said, we got to get this show on the road. So hopefully this week, Bill, we'll get some numbers, final numbers, so we move forward. That would be good. There's one thing I keep hearing that bothers me a little bit and this thing that we're in now was completely unforeseen. Nobody could have planned for this and to keep pointing a finger, I've heard it, not just here, but I've heard it around, point a finger at Dairy, we operate under a federal system and I don't know how the farmer can do much with Congress if Congress isn't interested in anything other than the cheap food policy, at somebody else's expense. So we're now beginning to recognize and we'd worked on this for a lot of years and a lot of trips to DC and around the country doing presentations and you've worked on it also, Senator, balanced supply with demand and now the co-ops are starting to do that. If I know Secretary Alby had suggested a year or a better ago that everybody transitioned to organic, you know, organic represents 8% of the market. That means 92% of us would be out of business if we'd have done that and not everybody can afford an $8 gallon of milk. So I'd like people to be a little less divisive and a little more interested in seeing everybody survive. That would be much appreciated. But you do have to agree, Bill, that if you keep doing the same ol' same ol' you're gonna end up with the same ol' same ol' results and you know, I haven't heard one word other than from our committee that I've talked to them about when we've discussed why don't we get away from that federal order system, maybe look at different ways of pricing our milk than what we're doing and build a Vermont brand on milk. I mean, we keep getting sold a bill of goods from the Southern New England people. Well, we're all in this together and we should add New England milk. Well, hell, we produce more milk one day and they do down there in a year. Yeah, no, that's right. Listen, anything is worth looking at and we look at things every day. I mean, if you can come up with a plan, that's fine. But the point is at least we've gotten to where the co-ops have imposed a management tool. And so now we're gonna do something with balancing supply with demand so that we're not oversupplied. But you can't account for a crisis like this under any kind of a system, I don't believe. No, it's hard to change when you're under so much pressure. But anyways, that's for another day and I hope that day isn't too far away. Yep, so a couple of weeks, huh? We'll be checking the mailbox. Thank you, Senator, thank you, committee. I go every day looking for my federal check and it's not there. You're not old enough. Oh, that's probably it. I think that's it. Thank you. Are you all set, Bill? I think I've said enough. You hear enough from me so you don't need to hear too much more. Well, I don't mind listening at all. Well, I don't usually hide things from you. I speak my mind. Yeah, questions from the committee. If not, we'll move right on to Brian because we're gonna lose a couple of people if we don't. So Brian, welcome back this morning and it's good to see you. Thank you for the opportunity again. We spoke last week. I guess I'd like to reiterate a few things that have already been said. Heather hit on it early on about the dairy problems that we're having, but there are in our group, Champlain Valley Farmer Coalition that I represent, a lot of farmers that took that heart, they feel like they will be here and they will make it through this. They've weathered a lot of storms in the past and they will weather this. And I guess out of last Friday's meeting, there was some concerns that they felt like as Heather said it, they were being told that they'd never get anywhere doing what they're doing. So I think that's important to remember. As far as holding, they also feel like some of this federal dollars are gonna be held back from the relief money if they don't have a plan to diversify. And I think it was either Maddie or Margaret that said, a lot of these firearms, it just doesn't work to diversify. And we have to keep that in mind and we can't hold that over individual farms, the ones that can and can thrive off from diversification. So be it, great for them. But some farms just aren't set up that way. So we have to keep that in mind. Another point was brought to my attention over the weekend was on the water quality, farms with the relief money being compliant with the AG agency. Certainly we want all farms to be compliant, but each and every day issues can arise and if a particular firm could come up with a, a written up statement on something. And I think at this time, for that to hold money back and this crisis would be detrimental. We can work on those issues on the farms, the AG agency always does. And I think that needs to continue, but I think to hold back any federal dollars if a firm has got a small issue, would really have a negative effect right now. Other things that, from the beef industry, we still have concerns over what is gonna happen here with the coal rates from the dairy industry, as those cows are being pulled out of production and putting into the beef market, it's really gonna soften the market. And I don't think we're gonna see those effects today or tomorrow, but we are, well, we are a little bit. The price has gone down a few cents each market day. I think it's gonna be a long-term thing as this nation-wide rolls out. And we discussed some options last week, possibly looking at people being able to graze some of these cattle and spread them out. And I don't know if anything, if there's been any discussions from your end with anybody on that or not, but infrastructure is important here in Vermont and without these larger dairy farms, as Margaret said, the infrastructure would disappear here. The small farms wouldn't be able to get local parts locally. It is important that all farms of all scale, all size, all diversity are helped here and kept in business because it is a tight woven network, as she said, and I agree with that 100%. We need all the farms and everybody needs to have the help. Without that infrastructure, the smaller operations won't have the liberties that they have now and even our rural economy without those larger farms. So I guess just to keep it quick, I think we thank you guys for all your interest in work that we know you're working hard. We know the ag agencies working hard and this dialogue is great to have, it's our time to be involved and have you guys working on it so hard. I guess those are my key points for today. I know we need to wind down, so I guess that's all I'd like to share now for now. Yeah, well, thank you, Brian. Are there questions from any of the committee members? If Chris? I guess I had a question for Mike, Michael about Brian's comment about the water quality. I thought we were putting it at a pretty high bar in terms of being in compliance. The idea that a small infraction wouldn't trip it out can just clarify that because Brian raises a concern we're going to hear a lot. Well, I just emailed Brian and Laura to get you a number about how many are not in good standing. I think you'll see it's probably much lower than Brian and others think it is. No idea whether it's one or two or 14 dozen. I think I don't want to speculate right now. I'll get you that number as soon as I get it from the agency. A big question came, Brian, and you can speak for yourself, but he suggested that unissued comes up and that would block federal money or this relief money. That's not as I understood. It has to be they're not in compliance with the final order. I don't know. It's further down the process than you might think. Okay. That's good to hear. Okay. Maybe that misconception. It was a relayed message to me. So maybe there was some. Yeah. Well, a lot of, a lot of the comments have been made. I think have been made on misconceptions. But anyways, we'll work, we'll work through that stuff and I'm sure, you know, we aren't going to come out with any final, I mean, it's hard to think and talk without people picking it up and using it and construing it to, you know, to whatever they think. And, and, you know, this meeting isn't a different than any other meeting. You have to talk things out and bat things around. And usually we come out in a pretty good place at the end, but it, it's very hard to do it. If you can't talk about it and if you do talk about it and something comes out that everybody doesn't like, then you're criticized. So, you know, it's, it's hard to do business the way we, you know, have to do it. And, and, yeah, I, I really miss not being in Montpelier where, where you can, you know, chat about things offline maybe a little bit with one or another to, to get a feeling in it. So, so this is all very challenging. I think the way we're having to do this, but in the end, I think people, you know, you know, we'll be really happy with what we do, but to get there, it's going to be a little bit crazy. Brian. Yeah, just one other thing I made a note of that I overlooked was, I just like to comment on Bill's comment. How he thinks when this is over. That the people from the city are coming. And that's struck. It's like, yeah, they'll come. And if we don't have the farms here, we're going to have the houses. Yeah, they'll run. We need to, we need to keep the farms here and keep the houses out of the fields. Yeah. Yeah. So it's very true. And it's one, you know, our crew. The ag committee is very. Cognitive that. Really. We're very fortunate. I think. Those of us from the rural areas to have. Like Brian and Chris and. And, you know, from the more densely populated areas. It's good crew. Yeah. Yeah. So it's very true. And it's one, you know, our crew. The ag committee is very. Cognitive that. Really. We're very fortunate. It's good crew. So anyways. Thanks a lot. And if you come up with anything that can help us, don't be shy about passing it along. And so we'll get done so we can go to our next meeting. Thank you.