 All right. Yeah, go for it. I'm Jennifer tab and I'm calling the meeting of the local district commission to order a little after four on November 16th. And this on our agenda today, I think we'll probably be able to wrap up, you know, in about an hour or we don't have any applications pending today which isn't unusual as we get into the winter and kind of past construction. Um, do you have any announcements been or anybody. No, no, I don't think I do. Okay. Does anybody else. No, but I thought the house on Fearing Street was under discussion today. Did we handle. No, I was just giving that as an example. Okay. That was one of the properties as we get into the minimum maintenance discussion that really spurred me to think we might need this. And I don't, I think it's an issue that's not as relevant in the Dickinson historic district, fortunately for you. Well, there is one house owner of Mattoon and triangle that. Here's the agenda for today. Okay. Yeah. So, um, yeah. So what I was hoping we could do today, since we didn't have any applications pending is, is, you know, begin the discussion of whether or not we would like to it have as part of the local historic district bylaw, a section to address. Um, I personally think minimum maintenance, which is sometimes called demolition by neglect. I personally think minimum maintenance more describes what what we're talking about. Demolition by neglect is often for cities or towns that have a lot of abandoned properties and that they find that they have to literally demolish them because they're so neglected. And it's actually not sound and in Amherst, particularly in the north part of that Lincoln Sunset LHD neighborhood, where we have more student rentals. We have a situation where property owners who frankly have the means to maintain their property just choose not to. Um, we had started to back when Brandon was the town staff, supporting this committee commission, he had gone and might have been back in 2018 he had gone to a conference that the Massachusetts historical commission sponsored for representatives from cities throughout the state on demolition by neglect and minimum maintenance bylaws and we were about to start discussing that when we back a year and a half ago when we received the Amherst media application, and then that really took up most of 2019. So this was kind of the first opportunity where we had a commission meeting that wasn't you know where we didn't have a lot of applications pending that we could begin to address this issue. And again it's just for right now we're just beginning the conversation and you know we'll see if we feel this is something we would like to have as another sort of tool in our toolkit. But I'm going to in a moment turn it over to Ben to kind of describe the mechanics of how the process that we would discuss and propose and possibly adopt minimum maintenance section of our bylaw but I guess just by way of background, why it's important so to me is, as I walked down my street and most of the houses in, you know the Lincoln Sunset North Prospect LHD, and you can literally, you can just frankly picked out pick out the houses that are not owned or occupied, and they're usually or maybe I should say because I don't know if they tend to be student rentals. I think that maybe houses that are rented to a family between the renters and the landlords they're made there's more maintenance but bottom line is, and you can't blame them, students aren't maintaining the property. So the proper the landlord the property owner the management company has to do that. And some of them, you know, I think the properties that you can pick out that have are in show the most greatest signs of deferred maintenance. And I guess it doesn't maybe even matter if they're not owner occupied the only reason I bring that up is it's not because it's a hardship such a financial hardship situation. It's because the property owner just is not maintaining the property. But I, and I, well, there's a particular management company I think we all know which one I'm talking about who you can that that properties become in really a they just look like slums for lack of a better word really in bad disrepair. And I guess when it really hit home for me is in by way of background, it was September of 2018, and a house that was being rented to students on fearing near mass Avenue was, or I guess it's East Pleasant Street experienced a fire early in the school year, and the students actually had to move out I think the landlord had to put the students up in a hotel. And then they began the process at some point of preparing the property. So it must have been about May of 2019. At the end of the school year, I walking by the property and I see that it has a for rent sign. But the property looks like it's falling down it was in horrible disrepair. So I literally called the company that the number that was on the for rent sign and I said, I'm surprised you're renting it out because it's not. It still has to be repaired. And they said, Oh, no, we're just finishing up, you know, repairing it where the fire was in the back. And I said but the front of the house looks like it's falling down I mean there's no paint on the front of the house. There was no pain on the porch the slats were missing from the banisters I mean it, it was one of the worst derelict properties I'd ever seen and they said, Oh no, you know we're not. It's, it's ready to be rented. So I immediately called actually Rob more while I was walking my dog down the street. And he said that, basically, they couldn't require them to paint it, or to, and those are the pictures that I sent this morning I took them that look like that there was really once it was quote structurally considered sound. There was not even a minimal maintenance requirement in terms of how the property looked. And I was just shocked by that. So I have to say is a, you know, kind of to end this one property story is john Thompson who's the senior code inspector for the town worked with the property owner and they did. It doesn't look as bad as it does in the pictures I sent they did fix this repair the slats, and they did do like one coat of paint on the front. So it didn't look, you know, again like a complete slum but nothing requires, there's no mechanism for the town to require property owner to make the property just look in any way decent. So that's my background. So I guess, Ben, how would we maybe go about this. Yep. Yeah, so the local historic district commission has a, you know, powers give granted to it by its general bylaw, which is, you know, was adapted by the town meeting a number of years ago and so the mechanism to amend or change the general bylaw would be through the commission working with the town council to they would need a I believe them just a majority vote to pass a change to the general bylaw. So that would be the end goal but leading up to that, you know, we would, you know, hold a series of public meetings. You know, this, you know, might be considered the kickoff discussion for that and we could work together to discuss, you know, if we want to pursue this and then if so there's we could begin by, you know, working with Matt mass historic to find some like template language or, you know, model language. There's also other towns and specifically, you know, local historic districts within towns that have a minimum maintenance bylaw or something similar so we could kind of use that language as a start. Obviously, you know, tweak it as we see necessary to have it fit the context of Amherst better. And then, you know, as always, you know, the public would be welcome and encouraged to attend these public meetings, you know, they're all posted on the town calendar. You know, the public would be invited to make public comment at the meetings as we develop the bylaws, the new bylaw. And then, you know, we would, you know, basically, you know, it would be, you know, as I'm doing now is it zoom is a great tool for this because I could. Jennifer or someone else could share their screen literally a Word document and we could, you know, live edit and, you know, make recommendations and, you know, just type type as we go, which has been useful process for other similar things I've done. And, you know, I think once we feel like we're getting close to a bylaw complete bylaw, we could at least maybe start, you know, priming town council for the for this and maybe work, you know, they have three subcommittees I'm not sure which subcommittee this would fall under but, you know, get it on their agenda and then work with them a few of the counselors and then eventually bring it to the full town council and then they have a process for adopting new bylaws and changes to the bylaw and it's, you know, they have a first reading and a second reading and then a vote. So, you know, it's a long process but, you know, I would say it's, it's not weeks it's probably months but I don't think it's, it's not years I don't think. And so I see so we wanted to just amend the local historic district commission bylaw or add a section to it, because I think I haven't done an exhaustive study but Brandon had sent me some examples and the one that seemed maybe the simplest and most remarkable to us was in Edgar town, where they just added a section to their bylaw but if we were to do that, that would still have to go before the full town council. Yep. Yeah, so it's the, it's the, it's the towns, the town's general bylaws that give the local historic district commission powers and so, you know, because this would be a new, you know, we might want to add a penalty we might want to add a procedure with like, you know, applicant must be earn or like, you know, morning must be given within X number of days and we must hold a hearing with the app with the property owner after this many days there would be a whole kind of procedure laid out and it would be something that would likely be enforced by, you know, by someone in the building in the building commission by the building commissioner so yeah it would put another burden on town staff. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Yeah. And, you know, it's something that whenever there's enforcement there's, you know, potentially we have to have a appeal process and, you know, we'll probably have to talk about you know hardship exemptions and and then, you know, which court it goes to because a lot of you know that's that's another thing to consider so you see this is almost similar to like when we adopted the rental permitting, even though that was townwide and this wouldn't be townwide, but it. Yeah, okay, because it had a penalty and right. Yeah, yeah, so that yeah that would be the process for kind of like the standard kind of minimum maintenance by law that I've that we've looked at that other towns have adopted. I'm wondering if there's like a, you know, like a way we could use if you know if we want to go down that path that's that's totally fine I'm wondering if there's a way to, you know, leverage the existing, you know, health and building codes that that the, you know, the town can enforce at right now and there you know there's a certain like health code violations that are just you know relate to general upkeep of you know roofs and walls and really with a focus on maintain making sure properties are, you know, water waterproof and rodent proof and that kind of stuff it doesn't get into the same level of detail, as I think we might be interested in but you know that that could be an avenue we look into is just using the existing codes that, you know, the state and the town do enforce and then giving the historic district commission more of a clear process to work with the building commissioner to enforce those, if that makes sense. And so I guess, just one question so it this would and the way it would get to the commission's attention would be if if some of a resident brought it, like I know Greta we had discussed the same property owner is property on Lincoln. Where there's railroad ties kind of one of a, not a nail but whatever they use them, I guess it's a nail, kind of stuck there, so that the park cars can't park on the side but yeah it's a mess. Yeah, is that so like a res another resident brings it to the attention of the commission. Yep, yeah it could be another resident it could be a commission member. Yeah, I think it could be a resident, I mean a renter. Yeah. Yeah, it could be you know, complaints kind of get funneled through to the building commissioner and even the planners and DPW and then they are relayed to the appropriate commission or body so there's I think different avenues for for for complaints and you know things to be reported. Does that happen very often now. Not very often. But, you know, I think, oh actually I mean the building inspectors do get complaints all the time for, you know, you know, you know, junked cars on a outside of a house that aren't supposed to be there or you know trash and stuff like that so. Yeah, yeah, they're busy I mean the biggest thing is just a person you know overcrowding student residences and lots you know what there's 10 cars parked outside of the house that's suspicious, but But things like Jennifer was saying about the not painting or the broken. Yeah, that's not they don't do that. Not that I'm aware of really. And then because, you know, chipping paint or you know missing balusters on a railing or, you know, those those kind of things aren't breaking any by code violation that I that I know of. And so this minimum maintenance bylaw would add an extra level of stringency to the health and building code violations, which do exist. I have concern. Yeah, I have concerns about the house on the corner of Mattoon and triangle street. As you come around the bend by the high school. It's the house on the left. You know, we're coming up from town. Yeah, I know that's in the high and that's also a student rental correct. Well, I'm not. No, I think that there is. I'm not positive. I think it's partial owner occupied. And then there might be one or two other people coming and going. It's varied from year to year. Sometimes it's been, it has seemed completely abandoned. But I, but the owner, I believe he's the owner is involved in the house. Well, by my standards, a young man, you're not not a family. And the balance of the balance streets of that they're called and the banished the railings the poor trailings are all falling apart. I mean, it's, he's done some each. He does just enough repair to keep the thing from falling completely apart is what it seems like and it seems like he only might be living in one part of the house. I know we're not responsible for the rest of the house, but if it's not being used at all, if it's not being heated, then it's also inviting animal life, whatever, which we all deal with in Amherst from time to time. So, but I don't know, I don't know whether there's anything that the commission can do about that house. And, because I don't think that's the historic district anymore. I think that. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't believe so. Oh, it's not. Are there any any mechanism. Is there anything that we can, any influence we can have over any anything to help. I'm not not not outside of the not outside of the historic district. It's terrible. I mean you could always, you know, make a report right just as a citizen to the town say I think you might want to look at this property. I mean I called. I'm such a pain. I emailed John Thompson like all the time but there was a house, they had actually come. It's a house on Fearing Street. Also, but closer to university and and the owner had actually come to the historical, the LHD this year for some repairs he was making, but students moved in, and I, there were literally three double mattresses just thrown outside the house and some other debris and it sat there for over a week so I called and then. So you can just do that as a citizen and john Thompson, followed up with them and they had to clear it away. Yeah. I think I heard about that one I think. I sit next to john so. He's great. I have to say he's great so just as I mean not he just as a side page you might want to email him he is really great at following up. You know it's maybe a code violation yet john john john. Thompson Jay. It's yeah his email is Thompson, Jay. What it at Amherst and a dot gov. And you know where you can also see his email address on that email that I forwarded everybody with the Fearing Street pictures, his email address is also on that. And he's like the senior code enforcer for the town. He's also the person that got that the, what do we call it the amnestyville horror that the big white structure on amnesty and Lincoln. Yeah, he got he got the owner to paint that this year. Wow. Wow. Wow, john Thompson is. Wow, is great. Yep. So, because the paint was peeling on that for a long time and he got them to paint it because he wanted to paint it. Right. Yeah, so I'd be curious to know what mechanism he used to, to enforce that or to make that mandatory, because it might have just been a strong suggestion. It was just a strong suggestion. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Because I think he has a relationship with that. So this, these properties, two of them are the same owner and I think he has a relationship and so yeah. And that's great. We're lucky to have john as a resource for that now but I wonder like if, you know, if we as a commission wants to have more of an active role in working with property owners, and, you know, if either john's too busy has an other way too much else to do or you know if and when he retires or something and then. Exactly. I mean we should have something institutionalized. Right. Right. I definitely think we should go down that road. Yeah, follow the examples that you have forwarded to us because I think it would be to everybody's benefit in town to be able to address these eyesores. Yeah. Right. And formalized procedure. Yeah, that much. Yeah, formalize the procedure. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say like, um, like I'm looking at the Edgerton one and remind me that is that Martha's vineyard. Yes. And here I can actually share that now so this is the model. This is just for their historic district. And so I was just noting like, they, they still don't get into the level of detail of, you know, talking about chipping paint it's it's really about, you know, structural support and, you know, I think Jonathan Tucker pre former planning director added this like something Amherst could consider. That's me. I realized your JT as well. That makes sense. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it sounds like this is a good start. I think this would be great. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. And I know that, um, that in Amherst they are sensitive because it was an issue when we were just, you know, forming the Lincoln Sunset, the North Prospect Lincoln Sunset historical district that, you know, they're always like, well, we don't want to be like Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard where we have these really strict, you know, where our goal is to have everything look, you know, very hearty, hearty, you know, that kind of historical district but the reason Edgar town came up with it. There may be more but it was the only example I could find where it was just part of the LHD bylaw. But, but again, you know, these were, we're certainly not looking at and again just in my sort of empirical observation, the problem properties are really never owner occupied that even if you have an owner that's on a budget, they will do everything they can to keep their property maintained. It's kind of like we had an elderly woman across the street and we've been mowing her lawn, you know, neighbors will do that, but I think these are cases where the owners have the resources, but it's really showing a lack of regard for their tenants and the neighbors, you know, so we're talking about people that have the resource, you know, we're not looking to impose, you know, good knock on people's doors and saying we think you need to you know paint your house that this is in egregious cases. But anyway, so I just say that because I get concerned that, you know, there'd be a perception that we're trying to become Edgar town or Nantucket and we're not. But this is just happening where they seem to have the bot that I could find there may be others. I believe the Lowell Historic District has similar minimum maintenance by law but the only difference there is that it's, you know, downtown Lowell is all commercial or mostly commercial buildings and like old brick mill mills. So that's, it's one thing to impose this on like a single family home but you know, for them it's mostly larger buildings that, you know, some of them become abandoned and need need need upkeep or like they're there literally going to like crumble into the canals and stuff so that's these are the only two I've seen I believe that that are just a district there are some townwide bylaws. Okay, so I guess I just sort of said that. Yeah, for the world a little sensitive if we get some pushback about Edgar town but, you know, so Laurel's, Laurel's a good example to kind of counter that. And does Brookline have one as well, or is that maybe. I don't believe so so yeah I mean there is that there's the demolition by neglect and the minimum maintenance by law and they are very similar. I think, you know demolition by neglect is more focused on, you know, structural issues and, you know abandoned homes that are just historic in nature and significant but are just that it gives towns a mechanism to, you know, make sure that they are being kept up just in the most minimum of way so. And yeah that's so they are very similar and almost interchangeable, I think so yeah you have to. I was like googling, and I was like looking using both terms and was able to piece a few together. Um, I, we can discuss this kind of like a minimal maintenance, because that's really what we're just talking about is the town being able to enforce some minimum level. You know, like again the house on Fearing Street I think it's kind of indisputable that there was no minimal level of any you know. And with no minimal level with leaving a house like that a historic house will get beyond repair. So it is really in the interest of the historical district to take those old houses and not let them. Yeah, have to be torn down because maintaining them. And then it does become sort of demolition by neglect. That's where it's interchangeable. I know the house that that we're concerned about here up here in our triangle and the tune was the home of the people who founded the Amherst Bulletin and the editor of the Amherst Bulletin. It has it has its own history which is part of the town history, which should be respected. So would you say that 18 hundreds. You think it dates to the 18 late 1800s. Yeah, yeah, so it's really a historic house. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking of I was thinking of a different house before I'm going to go look at that but it's important that that not be allowed to. Yeah, all apart. I must say he's done some work over the last few years I think he has very little. I think, I think he inherited the house from the previous owners who were. They were either gone when dinner had just about moved out whatever the house was in transition and, and it was before I was really aware of the neighborhood in that kind of a way so I don't know what I think it would be a good one for us to try to handle it properly and responsibly and help find ways to get him help if he needs the help to maintain it or whatever. I'm not sure. Yeah. The other thing that's popped up quite literally this week. And I think it's out of our district, but I know that we dealt with Amherst media with the women's club is the trees that have been planted. We've seen that. Yeah, how did that happen. How did that happen. Yeah. Yeah, so I was. I was just a guest when I said yesterday that happened like overnight we bought this neighborhood day and night. Amherst media building. No, I got, I think in the am I'm not sure if it's the Gazette know in the Gazette, I think. There's a picture and a letter from the Amherst media complaining about this talking about how many hoops they had to. And that one of the things that was discussed most was that they should not destroy the vista the street. And, and then there was a reply, I think from town council saying this is landscaping and there is no way anything can be done. It's a private owner and his zoning is residential. And we only have rights. We don't have any rights over landscaping. So, yeah, that was horrible to see. What an affront to the community though to put a wall of trees there. It seems like it was just very spiteful because they didn't get their way blocking Amherst media. And they were disappointed in us or them to build it seems like a very spiteful thing to do. Maybe they're media blitz or something a pressure, but I don't think there's, it sounds like you can go to the Gazette today online or anything and read exactly that. Yeah, it was a Scott Merz back wrote it article. Yeah. Yeah, it was was quite shocking. But just reminds me how I love that vista, and I'm sorry, pound sold the land and it didn't become a park. Right. That came up in the article to all kind of botched. It seems like the town buys lots of land all over for conservation, but the downtown could use some more land for for green downtown. But anyway, that's gone. It was like a domino. There's it. But, uh, I mean, I'm not sure that that's really the last word, but got fingers crossed. Yeah. You know, I don't know how. Yeah, how high the hedge can I don't know. I don't know, but it might not even look like. Small trees, not a hedge. Yeah, they're like, uh, like Arbor Vitey. Evergreen shrubs really trying to. Yeah, make a border wall. And block out the new buildings. Yeah. Although the new building is not right in front of the house. No, that's also in the article. Right. It's blocking for the view from the street. That's, we went through all that to keep that vista open and move them over and they had to. Unbelievable. I think we have to do a lot of sort of shaming. Letter to the community. You know, again, we probably shouldn't discuss it in our meeting here, but I think the community has to do something has to react. Yeah, I don't think we as a committee. Only in so far that we can reinforce what was into what Amherst media said, how many hoops and at what expense, they had to jump through those. They almost sounded as if it was a good thing that they had to change. You know, they said worked hard to change the building so that I thought reflected well on the committee, but often things that aren't our. We don't have any say about landscape. So as individuals, we can, but not as a committee as individuals. Right. So what would be useful? I mean, it's done. So anything that you say. Well, if, again, we probably shouldn't be discussing this here, but if the community. Something could be done about how high they can be. I don't know, you know, I think their tree is it. I don't think they're shrunk. Maybe there could be something of restriction on how high they can be. I don't know. Yeah. If they are Arbor Vitey, I used to work at a tree nursery. So I think Arbor Vitey you can, if you let them grow on check, they'll grow, you know, pretty tall, you know, 20, 30 feet, but they are very, you can shape them and keep them at a certain height without killing them. I mean, you know, some, some shrubs that get 20 feet, if you keep them at five feet, they'll die over time, but Arbor Vitey's are, they're not there. They're very human species. They're, they're, they're meant to be for, for hedgerows that are kept at a certain level. Yeah, I don't know. I can, I can look closer at our bylaw and see what, what might be in there and, you know, bring it up with Nate and see if there's anything we can do. That would be great. I mean, if it falls with, if anything could fall within our jurisdiction, sounds like there's some agreement we would want to know what our tools are. Yeah, yeah. If you could just stop to see that. Yeah, I'll make a note of that. Thank you. That would be helpful. Do we agree we, if there is something that commission. Wow. All the work that we do to keep things open and historic and respecting ownership property owners, you know, it was such a, such as front to see that. It just felt so vengeful to me. And I, when Jim Lester, both the letter to the article reported that Jim Lester wrote a letter to Christine best drop. And so he did get the information because I was a little concerned when I read the article that Amherst media might have thought we approve that, but he, it was clear in Christine's response that it wasn't done before us. Yeah. So wasn't done by Amherst. Who, who put it in there then. No, it seems to be the homeowner of the Henry Hills house. So those are the two men. Yes. Yes. Yeah, okay. I was just concerned I didn't want Amherst media to think that we had been so concerned about protecting the Vista and then we had approved the trees. And that is so, so Amherst media does have that information based on Chris's response. Yeah. Just response but I'll look. Yeah, she's quoted in the, in the article. Oh, then I did. There's a heartening thing to see with my morning coffee. Yeah. That would be great if you could find out if there's, if maybe there's something. Okay. You know, for the benefit of the whole town and anybody that visits to be able to see those two mansions. So beautiful. Yeah. Oh, right. It's really a townwide ish, you know, those are like, should be a town like, right. Treasures. That's exactly right. It could be a townwide issue that town votes on as a town. Right. Something really. Yeah. Ben, if they get to be 20 feet high and we really can't see that those two houses, that's a real loss. Yeah. Yeah. Oh God. I just think legally there's nothing. Anybody can do sounds like. Legally, they have a right to do whatever they want. On their. Yeah. Yeah, that would be my guess. Private property. It's in a residential district. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of hedges around here. Yeah. It's usually on the edge of. Usually on the edge of a sidewalk. You know, that just blocks the view from the street really this is, this is, this has such a different intention. I mean, the intention. It's a big F you to, to us, to the town. I mean, I was so antagonizing. I moved from where I used to live in California. They did have. You know, like a, you couldn't have your hedge. Be over a certain height. So they, I don't know that that's the town's going to do that, but they said they didn't want you to be able to, you know, walk by and have people look like they were behind. And you know, you could walk down the street and just see hedges that in neighborhood. See the houses. That's interesting. I know some places have fences. You can't have fences over here tonight. So make this. With hedges. Anna. I think that's something we might want to. At some point, I don't know. I'm not good on this stuff, but look up. How, whether that kind of bylaw for the town of Amherst might be something worth considering in the historic district. But this wouldn't have protected us because they're not in historic district. They're not in historic district. Okay. Well, then. Yeah, but. We would have to change to include landscaping. And that's. Oh, I see. Okay. Wow. Wow. That was very. So aggressive. So aggressive. And it's the. The shock. The sad one. Yeah. So Ben, if you, you know, I don't know, again. There's any. It's done. I mean, it's done. I don't think there's any. I'm doing that. Unless there was some height. Maybe somebody in a nice way could talk to him, somebody who has good relationships like who we were talking about. And, and encourage them to keep the hedge a certain height. I mean, I can understand if maybe they just wanted to have. Sort of a barrier. So it was clear where the property line was. Right. Keep the hedge because it's still short. And maybe that's, maybe that's what they're doing. Maybe they're doing. Maybe that's. So maybe, yeah, somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I bet not. I don't think. No. It was, it's very aggressive. It's a very aggressive after. Yeah. As far as. My response to it anyway. I can't see it any other way. So just going back, circling back to the minimum maintenance by law. Just trying to think of the next. Laying out the steps for this process. That. You know, could very well be multi-multi-multi-month process. My sense, like, I feel like the best. We should figure out. Kind of like what. What the scope is that we want to consider. And then. Kind of what various considerations. For. You know, exemptions, I guess, and. And then kind of what the process looks like for. You know, receiving. Complaints or issues and then. Working with property owners to. Seek, you know, the outcome that we, that we're looking for. So. We're looking for. A way to. Look for. Model by-laws. And then kind of rework them to. To fit what, what we discuss. So that's kind of how I see the process playing out over multiple meetings. And then we would probably have to make a presentation or. Before the council, when it gets. The town council, when it gets to that point. Yeah. So at a certain point, like at the end of. Our discussions, we would hold a public hearing. We would hold a public hearing. That would need to be, you know, have a legal ad and. People notified. And then we would vote on like our draft. Our final draft. Of the. By-law. And then that would get sent to. Town council or a subcommittee of town council. And we would present there. Yeah. Okay. So. Were you on. Wanting us now to sort of. Give suggestions as to some of what we'd want to see in the by-law or wait. I think it's a, you know, this is the first time we're talking about it. So maybe it's something we can think about. Yeah. Yeah. So. Over the, until next meeting. Or, you know, or we can talk about it now. So. I think one of those egg or town. Things they're, they're put very nicely. I like the. That's definitely one that we would have to think about putting in and. And I liked when you said. Well, we also could work with the property owners. If they can't, you know, if they are unable to do the work themselves, that we come up with some plan to assist them. Because it's to the good of everybody for the home. That that. Thing would be preserved. So maybe we should just go with this. Edgar town. Thing that I read. Yep. And, and every, all of us really read it carefully and see if we want to take it kind of as it is and add things to that. Things seems like a pretty rational way of moving forward. I agree. I'd like to see the low one too, but can I, I probably can just find it online. Yeah. It was, it was a little bit buried in there. I can, I could email that out. If I still have the tab open, I think somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Karen, I think that's a great car and a great suggestion that we can look over Edgar town and low. If we had it, have it. We don't have to totally reinvent the wheel and then come back to the next meeting with our. You know, Suggestions and conversion of that. Yeah. And then see if we can think of anything else. Like I like your railings edition. Yeah. I think because it's more geared towards. Large commercial buildings that are abandoned. They have. They, they're hardship. Yeah, they're hardship determinations. They have a very long process worth a lot. Maybe that's not, maybe that wouldn't work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's still, you know, they have like, you know, licensed report from a licensed engineer about the structural soundness of the structure and the. You know, receipts for if there's income being made on the property. Real estate taxes for the previous two years. So that's maybe a level of detail. We don't need all of that necessarily, but you know, it's worth considering how, you know. You know, how do we, you know, determine an economic hardship, I guess, and. Is there, can we just kind of discuss it? Or do we need like, you know, property records and income statements and this and that, or so. You know, I'd prefer to keep it simple, but. Just, just things to consider. And we're a little, we are unique because I mean, we're the only town. You know, so that's where rentals get to be an issue. Yeah. And luckily I, you know, Amherst doesn't have. Really any that I can think of like abandoned properties that are, you know, falling apart without an owner. Which is good. It's not in the district though, but the beautiful building that belongs to Amherst college by the golf course is just falling down. But that's not in the historical. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You see the deck in house, I think. So Cambridge also has a historical district. So I'll check and see if they maybe have something. Okay. Cambridge. Oh, that's a great idea. Okay. Yeah. Well, right. Oh, that's great. Thank you. So I wonder is it all. This is all kind of geared and structural. I mean, there's a lot of aesthetic things too, that are kind of important in a historical. Can we have we got any way. I mean, like letting mattresses rot on the outside or having paid peeling off paid. I know isn't. Isn't supposed to be something. Get into our, do we have any way that we can also. You know, I think that this should. That it has to have a. I'll have to look into chipping paint in that kind of detail. I know, like, for example, even in our. Bylaw where paint color is exempt, right? Right. I think so. Obviously that's different than like paint. Overall and paint chipping paint. But. You know, as it is now, like, you know, I'm not sure what it's about on the, someone's lawn is something that can be reported to the. Inspector and building commissioner. And is, I don't know the exact bylaw, but I think it's a health code violation or something. So, you know, maybe it's, it's worth having two processes. One is the, you know, us developing our minimum maintenance bylaw. And then maybe. We can put together a cheat sheet of all the existing. Bylaw. Bylaw. And then we can. You know, we can put together some. Violations that can be. Uh, reported as, as, um, as it stands now, because I don't know all those are out the top of my head really. Um, but, you know, it's health and building code. It's two, two different things. So. Right. Connect the interrelated. Obviously. Yeah. Yeah. So. I don't know if you have dogs, but I'm telling you walking a dog is. That's how. Like, I just know I. Everything. Right. Walking Ricky. And I'm always like, oh my God, I can't believe what I'm seeing. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good thing. No. Again, there's. The common denominator seems to be student rentals, but that's. Yeah. All right. So I was going to say there. If it's okay with you, Jennifer, there's a few members of the public in attendee. As attendees. I had on the agenda just for public comment. And if they would like to raise their hands, I can allow them to talk. So yeah, Hilda. Green bomb. Yeah. And add her in. So Hilda, if you can unmute yourself. Yeah. I think. Yeah, good. This is not a new issue. And we've been talking about it for years and years and years. We thought that we had it. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the house, but also, you know, grass, I did three inches and things like that. As part of the registration. But don't say it's just. You know, that owner occupied buildings are in better because they're not. I can, I can, I'm quite a few of them around here. They're not owned by, not all owned by little old ladies, but I lived next door on Hills road to people who were meticulous about maintaining the house. And as soon as they sold it to an owner occupant, the grass was a foot tall. They didn't. You know, prune any of the bushes ever where, you know, this, the woman who had owned it before you could eat off the floors and the house just, and the yard went totally downhill. So it's not, not just. Rental properties. It should be a townwide thing. And we talked about it. One of the things that I did when I was on zoning board, when we had one of these notorious types. And incidentally, the one you were talking about before, owned a house up here in the North Amherstess dark district. And he had to put on a new roof. And he painted the peeling paint recently. But, um, so. We talked about making this part of the rent registration by law. I don't know what happened to it, why they didn't do it, whether they thought they couldn't get a through town meeting. If they did it, I'm not sure. But that's one place. That would hit more properties than just the historic ones. And then I started to say that when I was on the zoning board, one of the first things I did when we had a slum lord. I was on the zoning board. Who wanted to convert a house on Lincoln Avenue. I used as a motto. One of the conditions we put on all the time was that the mid landscaping had to be maintained. Which meant you had them out a lot and things like that. And so I changed it that not only did I require him for a special house that there was a list of deferred maintenance of rotting wood that had to be replaced and fixed within six months. And that the, you know, the maintenance of the structure. Had to be in perpetuity. Now they don't do that anymore. They have 15 other different or 20 more different. Conditions they put on, but maintenance of a landscaping and maintenance maintenance of the structures on a property. I'm not part of what they do, but if it is, I'm told. If it is in a condition on a permit, it can be enforced. So anybody who comes, anybody who comes in for a special permit. You, you guys can show up at the hearing and make sure that they do things like that, especially with historicals. So I had, I had approved a lot of these from, from sun boards and knowing what they look like and listening to 50 neighbors. You know, like, well, I'm not going to talk to things have changed here, but, but that, that could be instituted again. And the conditions, huh? Um, so. Okay. So I think probably what you're saying that if it has, if it's a property that's being rented, you know, and you're right, it's certainly not all properties are rented by any means. We tend to see the same one or two. The inside is as bad as the outside. I'll tell you, I hear through my family, they tell me, I mean, you hear all the stories when the tenants come in and tell you that I'm moving out of a $2,400 a month. One into your house because it's, it's better maintained. And it's, you know, I hear it. But if, um, so. Oh, if you're, if it's a rental property that has deferred maintenance and they have to have a permit to be able to rent. If one of the mechanisms was to go to say that. Um, I, I, I have it be, but it's not a rental permitting violation now because right then, because there's not a minimal maintenance bylaw that you're violating. But, but we had, we had talked a lot about putting something in there because of this situation that we all, it's an embarrassment to everybody. Yeah. But it's not just the rental properties is what I'm going to say. I mean, I think it's a lot of people of a different generation from mine who don't have that kind of feeling about the landscaping around the house. Yeah. No, you're right. I don't care if they live in a pick pen. It's not important to them. It's important to me because I'm a nut. But, but. But, um, yeah. No, I know what that's. It's not easy. You know, it's not easy. It's not easy. It's not easy. It's not easy. You know, people my age that just can't do it anymore. You have to find people to do it. And that's not easy. But, but, but, you know, if you've got two parents working and you've got young kids. Whether the long gets modest at the bottom of the list. Well, Hilda, are you saying that we should include. A landscaping minimum maintenance in. A landscaping minimum maintenance. I mean, I think we talked about it to make people mowed along because they, you know, people would not mowed along. But it, I mean, you're talking about something that's just in the historic, just all historic district. Or just the local historic district. That's another big issue. Well, I think we were thinking just the local historic district because. Well, that's all we have jurisdiction over. So I guess that. I think we need to come up with something together. Cause I think the, aren't they talking about a tube in. We're talking about. Yeah, we're reworking the demolition delay by law. And we had discussed maybe including the demolition by neglect as part. A subsection of that. Work together with them. And. If it's a town by law, find out a way that it. Maybe applies to anything that's more than 50 years old. I can't just be, it can't just be the local historic districts. I mean, it'd be good to do that, but, but there's too many problems around the town. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, this precedes me, but I think. Nate and maybe Brandon had thought starting. With the local historic districts kind of as a pilot for the. For minimum maintenance and then seeing how that goes and what the process is like, and then. Thinking about it, something similar for the town. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well. Yeah, I just felt like the. The historical commission and then certainly the town council. Just they have so many items on there to do less. Yeah, but. But the town council wants less and less of those. That's the whole issue. Yeah. They want to get rid of guys that regulate sound familiar. It's anti-business to regulate. Huh? This is why I don't want to just put it on their calendar because I'm afraid it won't happen. Yeah. And I have to give all of this. I have to give all of this some real thought on this. Before we leap into. Another area. That we would be bringing under our purview. I kind of liked the idea that you talked about, Ben, that this is a pilot thing to see how it would go. It sounds good, Hilda, to work together with everybody and have a town-wide thing. But it's probably much more doable and maybe more. Possibility of success to do a pilot thing with just. Yeah. We could go back to go to. Hearings of houses that are a problem and make sure that this. Maintenance of the structure gets put in as a condition. That you can do. I mean, for any, but the other thing is, if you work with the historic commission, then it would apply to anything that's more than 50 years old. Right, right. Yeah. I don't understand why they're doing a bylaw and you're doing a bylaw. I think you should work. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I mean, I, I, uh, Jane walled the chair of the historical commission was on this call at the beginning. And so we're a few of the commission members. So I, I had let them know that we were having this conversation. So. So yeah, I think there is some, there's, there are two different processes happening right now with the historical commission, looking at their bylaw and then us looking at this, the general bylaw. I was going to say, actually, yeah. Hilda mentioned something that might be worth looking at is, I think right now for the rental registration system, it's just, it's just a parking plan that they have to. Submit in addition with their own permit application and maybe, you know, I could look into. Whether there's more of like a. Maintenance commitment or, you know, some sort of upkeep. Well, we do have to sign. And I don't do it anymore. My son doesn't for me, but you do have to sign the, the, you know, all the codes. Right. And part of the code I was going to say, and then I'll give somebody else the floor that the peeling, the peeling paint. There's a house of think that's 665 main street on the corner there that has been peeling paint since I was an assessor back in the. 80s. Healing paint. And it's absolutely disgusting. I'm going to be halls in the, in the stairs. Real sanitary code issues. The refrigerator was held together with duct tape as was the oven door. And it's the same. Nobody had some on by a local. Who has a roof for them. I don't know who he is now, but I mean that house has never been maintained. And the paint that's peeling off it. If you were kids under six, then you'd have jurisdiction on the web paint. But, but I mean, I've been trying to get that thing fixed as I say from the time when I was an assessor and the people would call me to come in. Because they thought I was assessed too high. And I would see the duct tape. On the oven door and the refrigerator door. Well, I'm going to be back in the kitchen. I'm going to be back in the kitchen. Anyway, little of why we wanted to start it. I guess our districts. 30 years later, some of these issues are. Remain unresolved. So. It's not no. Right. I know. Um, well, we're certainly. You know, Ben, if you. Ever, you know, I wanted to have it maybe joint meeting or something with the historical commission. But I agree with like what you said in car and that as a pilot. In our, you know, historic district might. We might actually be able to make that happen. I do concern that. Although I agree with Hilda, it should absolutely be townwide. I totally, I totally agree. But I, I think we could 30 years from now, still be having a conversation. So that's why I'd like to move with at least in the LH. For the further, for our commission. Right. Right. Okay. So I wanted to try, we're a little past five. I was hoping we could, you know, wrap up at five since we didn't have any. Yeah. Applications. So. Ben. For the next meeting will. You'll send us low. And. We'll send it to you. If you find Cambridge and want to send it out to us. That would be great. And then we can all. Look at those and have some suggestions when we come back to our next meeting. Yeah. And I guess that brings us to our next meeting. Do we have a date yet? No. And do we have any applications that have come in? Yeah. Yeah, I haven't heard of any. So. Can we meet in December? If it's not too close to the holidays. Sure. I can. And not that we're all traveling this year so much. I'm going to go out and see my mother again. Oh, but that's great. Yeah. In the beginning of December and I can. Last time I sat outside in a cafe. I was like, oh, I'm going to be in the cafe. I'm going to be in the cafe. I'm going to be in the cafe. She doesn't have wifi at all. Yeah. A lot of worry, maybe. Libraries are closed. But we can do it when you're back. I get back to the 17th. But I can also try it on my phone and that might be fine. Okay. Why don't we, why don't we do it after the 17th? Right. A month from now, it's already the 16th. Okay. Yeah. I get back to the 17th. So. I hate to do it the week of the 21st, because that's Christmas. Yeah, I don't, I won't. I don't have a quorum without me and I can try to do it. Why don't we do it the 18th? What's wrong with the 18th? That is Friday. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's. And if I can't do it, you'll still have a quorum probably. But if I can, I'll do it with my phone. And maybe the cafe, maybe they'll be warm enough. I prefer not to do a Friday evening. Yeah, we can. What about if we, if we want to do it, keep to Monday, that would be the 14th. Yeah. Let's do that. And then I'll see what I can work out. Last time it was fine. Okay. Thank you. Although. Is it cold there to be outside? It doesn't get terribly cold, but I'll have to talk fast. Maybe. Can you do it on your phone? Just from. I'm going to try it. Yeah, you can, you can call in. You won't see the screen, but I email everything out anyway. So. Okay. Last time I use the, I use my phone, but no, I didn't. I use my, I bought my iPad. Anyway, there's something out. I can make a hot spot. You can, you can rent one of those or take one of those hot spots with you from the library that they just advertised. That's a good idea. And my phone has a hot spot too. Right. But, but they said, you know, they come and get our hotspots. I'll do that. That's a great idea. Anyway, I can figure it out. Okay. Okay. So then we'll confirm for Monday, December 14th at 4pm. Okay. Yep. All right. Sounds good. To close the meeting. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't have any other questions and answers lit up, but you don't have. Yep. Yeah. That was just one of the attendees. Heady start up asking how. Just how zoomed work. Worked. But if there is any other public comment. You can raise your hand. To unmute. I think we're all set. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Hilda for your comments. And it's on. So is there a motion to adjourn? Yeah. Okay. I second. Okay. All in favor. Obviously. So. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. All in favor. Obviously, so. Okay. Everybody. Have a good Thanksgiving. Yeah. Good conversation and we'll see you next month. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.