 Hey everyone, this is Carlos. I'm the founder and CEO at Product School and today I'm here with another founder and CEO His name is Prashant Mahajan and his company is ZEDA ZEDA and it's .io, right? Yes, it's .io. Maybe one day you guys can buy the .com. I Have got offer, but I think ZEDA.io works well so optimizing for the right things But times a lot Carlos for having me here Really love the community and I'm glad to be here I'm glad to have you on the show. You guys have been a good partner for for some time now Partnering with us at the product con conference in New York I've always been very curious about of the next generation of Technology for product leaders and and you're running one of those companies that I think has a lot of potential to to become Like a lifelong brand. So let's let's talk about it Maybe you can start by telling us a little bit more about about you like who are you and where did you decide to start to start this company? Sure, so like most of the people who are Watching this or listening this I was a product manager before this I worked as a product manager for almost seven years. I worked in India Indonesia USA Japan four companies two of them public other two are ten billion dollar and five billion dollar Have been building products. I actually was a Speaker featured speaker with products school back in 2017 and At that time I was in Singapore or Jakarta. I was the speaker But I have been in the community have been building products But then I realized that building product is very hard like it's the hard thing and we have all the framework We have all the information and all the knowledge, but still we don't have a right tool to build the products So that's where I left my job as a product manager to build a product for product managers That makes sense and I resonate with that because I also come from a product management background before I started my company and there wasn't really that many tools out there for creating roadmaps prototypes run different type of analysis that There was a lot of these tools optimized for a different type of persona for the marketer for the data person for the engineer and over the Last ten years or so. We've seen a lot of new tools that are fully optimized for the product manager and different use cases and It's funny But it's true like a lot of the founders of those companies are former product managers who felt that pain. Yeah Exactly. So I think most of the founders which are coming along. I Viver in product earlier. So we are going to have a lot of Great product based companies in future. I'm sure of that So your product is kind of meta because you're building product for product people Yeah, obviously a product management. There's so many different use cases out there, but what is a specific? Use case that you are solving so Eventually we want to be the go-to platform for product teams and product leaders if they have an idea and they want to Build out a product manage the life cycle. We want to be there But for now, we are focused on product discovery because as you said, there are multiple tools out there What we realized is every company every product every team have their own flavor But the most important question is what to build So we help product teams with that what to build why and then make a plan and Measure the impact but what to build and why it's the biggest question which we are solving for Let's double-click on that. That's a hot topic product discovery What are the main sources that a product manager? Leverages in order to inform what to build next Here's the fun part. There are so many different sources And as you go and talk to companies, everyone want to be data focused They want to keep all the sources, but eventually it's some senior person who says that we have to build this We want to change that we want Product teams to be empowered so that they can decide that what they are building and why what we do is we take in data from customers customer support customer success sales potential sales Product analytics, user research, internal communication, backlogs, idea of management Everything at one place and then we generate insights on top of that that What a particular feature or a request Impacts the company. What is the revenue impact, customer impact, retention impact, metric impact and then they can prioritize So I can imagine that in order to gather that data that is living in different Silos or tools you are integrating with the different tools, right? So if you talk about customer success or support, I can imagine tools such as All of them, gintes, gong, ginti, gong, mixpanel, amplitude, HubSpot, Salesforce, cheetah, Slack, theme, email Yeah, all of them. Okay, so that's your angle basically like to integrate with the different tools that provide data And then you are the layer that that creates that Those insights to make it easier for the team to make a decision Yes, and obviously from that insight you can make the roadmap your strategy All within the VEDA we have Built the entire framework on that. So in the age of Artificial intelligence, I want to learn more about I mean you guys mentioned artificial intelligence on your home base, right? So what does AI, what's the role of AI in this Magic that you have to to transfer data into insights Yeah, so number one thing is imagine a company which is getting Their sales people are doing 10-20 gong calls a day. Then there are customer support Let's take a company anywhere, which is like web flow Which is which will be getting a lot of customer support. They'll be getting a lot of sales data in their CRM They'll be getting a lot of customer success meetings happening, which will be in the Gain site or some other tool then they'll have internal communication. They'll have user research Now they won't have millions of product manager. They'll just have 10, 20, 30, 50 product managers Now 50 product managers and 5 million customers The math doesn't work out. So you need to optimize that you need to see that. Okay all this data What does it have a business impact because? There's a economy in the play which is right now in a mess So you want to make sure that you are prioritizing things which move your needle, which is move your business impact revenue top line or Reduce your, you know, makes you more focused. So that is there and I think that's tricky because as pms In general, we don't own PNL Yeah, he owes don't don't typically own PNL Yeah, and now we're being told to to provide Youngest user value. It's not about what we're making our users happy and long-term. This is going to pay off now it's about well, we also want to see return faster and Trying to step up and show business value. So How do you quantify or what are ways for for pms to See in their prioritization process. What are some of those features or initiatives that they should go for first? Sure So because we have integration with the gain site and CRM you can pull in revenue directly that a feature request like Someone asked for Bitcoin payment. What is the customer? What is their revenue size? What is their ACV? Now the other thing is we have indication with conch. So you can see that, okay? If we ship out this particular feature 10 deals will close which will develop in this much revenue. Now immediately Anything you ship ties down to revenue Secondly We have indication with mixed panel amplitude so we can build in segments and cohort So we can tell you your top paying customers are asking this your most active customers are asking you Enterprise your SMB. So now immediately you are able to not just say that what you said We have to ship this out because it feels good, but we are going to ship this out because this type of customer is asking this This is the data and this is the impact which we expect and this is the company goal So whatever your company goal is you can map it up This sounds That sounds great and because back in the day I remember when I started product school a lot of people would question like if you can teach product It's like it felt like like an art that someone was born with and had these superpowers that will allow them to have a vision and then Invent something that everybody will love obviously There's much more science than art and I think Having this type of access to data from a CRM from product analytics from other Places where you can see exactly what our top customers and Potentially forecast the impact of a new product development into your your bottom line is huge But at the same time the artist is still there, right? I can't imagine you can just put all of this information in an AI algorithm Mix it up and suddenly you're going to get your perfect roadmap. So so what is the art piece? How do you cut me ensure that that you know the product manager or a product leader is adding value in this equation? Definitely, so as having this I remember there's this one podcast where Lenny was talking and Lenny say Oh, you guys are going planning to replace PM. I was like, no, we will never replace PM. I am a PM but what you just mentioned that people There's a science and art piece We hire product managers are the creators most innovative people and what they are doing is spending time in meetings Jira backlog excel sheets or updating people now if you take away the science and operational part and Let a tool like Zedah take care of it with the air you get a lot more time with doing the artwork really creative work really solving the customer problem really making innovation and Move it progressing the humanity. So if you have more time and more bandwidth to do creative strategic work and you let to like Zedah do the operational Redundant work that is there now to Think from this perspective. We are just giving you insights. How do you act on that insight? How do you take the decision on that insight which inside you convert into a product? What is the solution for that insight? That is something which still product teams have to do it We just uncover the opportunity if in front of you I I share that view on AI or technology in general giving human superpowers sure many jobs will be replaced with AI and Sure, so many others will be created and I think for the ones who will stay will hopefully Give us more power so we can spend more time on the insights part than trying to Analyze the data, but if someone wants to go level deeper and analyze the data, it's still there So I'm bullish on that now at the same time you mentioned product strategy as well And I'm looking at your your website and that's a really hot topic as well Like back in the day product managers were this meat level Manager at best that would report into a chief marketing officer or chief Technology officer and pretty much followed instructions now. We're the way beyond that like Many many companies have a chief product officer. We have a seed at the table and and we have an influence However, I think that strategy piece is still Hard to crack like it's not a road map like When we put a road map, it's important to align on on company goals and and okay So I left to get your take on how you break down product strategy Sure, so you're correct Few years back they will know the CTO used to be the CPU now it is CPU and Product strategy starts we beyond product strategy in the end is I believe What is the customer problem? We are going to fall and what is the business outcome? We are going to achieve and it starts with the best of company goals and that's where we I mentioned the insights which we generate Need to map to the company goal your goal is to increase revenue These are the insights for that your goal is to increase new users. This is the insight for that your Goal is to increase retention. This is the insight for that in the end We are definitely mapping to the company strategy and we have built a product within fed up where you can have your strategy your goals your initiative and then map your Features which are going to help you achieve the goal and then why do you think that feature exists? What is the insight for that? Then you have the insights and then you can also see the Feedback or the data which went into that insight. So you have a clear visibility that This strategy is built based on this data and this is the status. So we have a live job of it So I totally see how discovery and and aligning with with company goals is the beginning of Strategy and breaking this down into specific goals and then roadmaps or initiatives or features It's a good way to keep other people accountable because strategy is not this thing for the C-suite That is having ideas and then somehow everybody else is executing on those areas So for that product manager, who's not a CPO, let's say it's an individual contributor How can they feel empowered and Part of that strategy was the end of the day Some of these things sound very very big and someone will be thinking well But how can my feature or my specific work can really really move the needle? Yeah, so Here's the thing in order to empower the team We need to give them ammunition to be empowered that ammunition is data like if you any mid-level PM or junior PM says that he we should build this because this is the Data or hypothesis backing it up and it should be part of today because this is the company strategy and this data Make sure is that if we ship this particular feature, we will achieve that Suddenly they have a seat on the table. It's not Opinions because you know if we are talking about opinion whoever has the highest seat gets the opinion But if we are talking about data, you cannot lie with data I mean if if I'm the CEO or you are the CEO and PM says that we should not We should double down on podcast because hundred million people are waiting for it You cannot say that. Oh, this data is wrong because there's a data. There's a fact and that's where I think We are trying to empower the product teams that Everything is number one back by data number two is visible There's a one thing which I have seen is a lot of junior PM And I think you teach a lot in that with the product leadership course is about preventing their Opinion to the leadership leadership always want to get it out and into what you need to back it up by data and prevent so that's why we provide that flow in the product and I have a Counter-intuitive comment to make here, which is as much as we talk about data There is arguably one of the weakest points for many pms We've been Spoilt many times we used to have a data teams Gathering that Mason for us and presenting the report and now in a whole new time where it's expected that a product manager can be Self-sufficient or as as efficient as possible and and go get data Go in some cases Produce something without waiting for a designer or go do discovery without waiting for a user researcher, right? And I think it's all good because at the end of the day there has to be a certain understanding of how the sausage is made It's not just about calling shots and waiting for you to make it happen but at the same time one thing I always tell pms is that strategies is a team sport and Strategy is not something that happens only at the C level suite and then we all execute I think of strategy as kind of like you can own a slice of it And you can be the owner of that strategy for your future for your roadmap and Still apply the same type of mindset and define a goal and break it down into different initiatives and like keep track of them And I find that extremely challenging especially larger organizations where they're multi products So then you have to also coordinate Different roadmaps. So I'm curious to know from from your perspective How are you structuring your own product team or your or your roadmaps? Sure So I firstly we are a very nimble small team and we everything is aligned we try to keep all the communication Before answering that question. I would love to add one thing which is talk Data is the weakest part totally. They need to be your Human element like you having that story that story which solves the customer problem and creates a value for the business because and I remember someone talking recently that how do you he asked me question that how do you define a good product manager? And I said a good product manager solves a customer problem while creating a business value and While doing this they give a delightful experience to everyone involved So that's that's my thought and we try to do that at VEDA where me my co-founder. We have a product team We work very closely. We have Entire team does reads ship it by product school and powered by Matty Kagan Inspired that's the first thing you join you have to read it. You have to watch There are certain blogs and YouTube for everyone is a product Mindset then we make sure that within the any discussion It's never that I'll tell the problem. It is the problem But you have to come up with the solution. It's not like hey, I want this to be shipped up I want this problem to be fought. So that is another thing shifting the tables Thirdly, what we do is we make sure we use VEDA so that everything is aligned. We have everything back by data and streamlined Of course, it makes sense, right? Yes, you're you drink your own champagne What is this part of your product stack? So we use the notion for documentation and we use cheetah for developers. We also very heavily relied on there's a Session tool called zippy zippy dot. Yeah, they any Session which happens on Zeta we record it and we see if there's a problem most importantly, I'll say the biggest tool which I Can tell our team rely on this room Like we try to talk to people. Hey, LinkedIn or product school community the slack channel We reach out to people that hey, we are building a tool for product managers And the best thing is other product managers are always there to help us out. They're like, oh, I'll give you feedback I'll tell you my problem. And then we go on through Recorded cross gripe it and then we analyze it on VEDA I think it's very cool to see more more product CEOs who have this mindset by default So as you onboard new people even if they're in other teams not always on the product team They have a appreciation for the product. They get to use it. Everybody in the company gets to use it and understand What's working? What's not working? I Share that because there used to be a huge disconnect. It still is in some companies where engineering teams would be building a product but not really Understanding what their product is all about They weren't really the users of their own product and not that everybody has to be the user of their own product But I think it's a huge cherry on top if you can be the user of your own product exactly dog-fooding I always say drinking your own champagne because you know quality. Yeah, but yeah But the other thing is about you you are now CEO obviously You always be but how do you structure your time now that you are not only building product? Trust me people say Product managers are the CEO of the product or mini CEO and all being a CEO is very different because your time is now spent with talking to investors talking to team Doing the sales and this is one thing which I I have shifted a lot from doing building product Now I'm doing selling the product which is sales marketing learning about PLG Doing the GT emotion. How does it optimize? So I'll say 50 to 60 percent of my time goes in that 20-30% goes in Looking forward into the future of product as I say I try less to be involved in the day-to-day product management my co-founder is doing great job with that I Try to think how the industry is going how what is the leadership talking about and the third time spent is Talking to stakeholders those stakeholders could be investors could be industry leader or it could be my team With whom I try to do one-on-one still I find super important to always block time for product Even when the company gets bigger It's at the core company the product and obviously as it grows. There's more than just product But keeping a finger on the poles Yeah, staying fresh with what's working what's not working what the competition is doing what our clients are Liking or not liking and it's just something that even though it doesn't really scale Yeah, absolutely critical I totally see I think more and more you a lot of product managers make great founders by the way and the reason for that is because as a product manager we are used to Working with different stakeholders different teams engineering design marketing phase so we had that idea and It helps a lot when you become a founder So how do you divide and conquer now with you with your co-founder as well as with other product people that you have on the team Yeah, so I Try to block time for reviewing the product every new release which goes out. I spend time Reviewing it. I still analyze every customer call customer feedback customer support ticket That is there and we do a weekly meeting where we analyze all the inputs gathered on Veda That is there my co-founder takes leads engineering and product now. I take care of the marketing and sales and That's how we divide the responsibility event time But at the same time I make sure that I'm focused on What we have and where we want to be in five years ten years How the industry is going to shape up as a product management? Let's talk about that Future of product the topic that it's it's close to home You mentioned that the vision for your company is to really be that one stop shop for a product team and you started with Discovery as the main use case. So what what are you seeing? And out there for for the product team to evolve and and what is next for for USA company? sure, so the vision which we started with was Enable people to solve problems. That's like that's how we started that If we if people if humanity has to progress innovation has to happen People need to solve more problems and in order to solve more problems They need a better tool for that and that's where Veda comes in in future Also, the goal is going to be helping people solve problem and that results in innovation for humanity now how I See the future of industry product management as an industry AI is going to play a key role and that has been a Pitch for Veda before even GPT hype. It was make product management simpler and smarter. I think Future is going to look like there's going to be a dominant Player they're going to be multiple player, but they're going to be two three dominant player product management factors like how we have Salesforce and her spot in CRM. We have intercom and friend desk in customer support. We have GitHub and Jira and in GitLab and Developer Figma and Adobe now being one but Figma Adobe in design. We are going to have one for one or two three for product management here Which fits in the center which talks to other stakeholders some things talking to CRM marketing engineering design Everything that central hub for product is going to exist this central hub Will learn over time all the way from the initial MVP of a company to all the way to IPO This will have all the product data all the user journey all the improvements all the learning all the Growth which company and product have done and they will learn from the market so imagine Tomorrow if you have to start a company you already have the definition of log-in flow currently you can have design on Figma and Dribble you can have code on GitHub and Stack Overflow, but you have to write a PID But you will already have it at VEDA that is going to be the one part second is going to be this central hub Will like you say art art of product management We will it will help you with the Improving the product like giving you insight for example if you're Persona is 60 years old make the font size bigger that recommendation Currently how that happens is you ship out a product you do user research you do user testing together data then you Learn from it, but this system will already know what is a good product and it will tell you Hey your persona is 60 years old make font size bigger your persona is kids education app make make it Sexual content prohibited these are the filters you should apply so it will make the product better and Yesterday I was talking to my founder. I would want to build a you know future where you can analyze the Permutation combination that if there are five problems and there could be five Solutions for each problem and there could be five ways to launch each solution fit for 125 permutation combination imagine if I can have all the data of the Product company user market and I can tell you what is the most optimal problem which you should fall This is the most optimal solution and this is the most Probable outcome it saves a company millions of millions of dollars and it speeds up the innovation for an entire human population I can't wait and as you said before it also doesn't mean that it's going to replace the But I think having those superpowers It's we huge like I've seen part of this evolution happen already and I agree with your take on hopefully What it should happen that back in the day there wasn't technology for pms Now there is that technology is much more visual than ever So it doesn't really require a specific technical background or data background design background in order to build something building is Easier if you will now all of these tools are not only more visual. They are also providing templates and automatic ways to get to value faster and I think Adding that inside layer of additional intelligence to it to not just help you build with some templates But actually provide real-time recommendations based on your specific context is what Your product is different. I this is one by the way learning Building a product for product managers that every team works differently every company every product every persona Is different process is different so giving a context and insight Specific for your problem your ICP your domain your culture and your vision is going to be in game changer Prashant, it's been a pleasure to learn with you. Thank you so much for your time Thanks a lot Carlos. I hope This goes great and I look forward to the October conference