 What purpose does that degree serve for you? Let's see if it is rhetorical for now, and we can deal with it later in the questions. Is it, does it represent something like, I think Stephanie Krause yesterday mentioned, does it represent social capital of a certain type, right? But does it represent anything else? So that leads me to my next question. What is important about that requirement of a degree, is it the knowledge it represents, is it experience, or is it the degree itself, in which of those is really the most important for you? Somebody answered this yes to me yesterday when I asked, but could you instead of that just administer an assessment of skills and knowledge at your institution, as part of the hiring process, and have that be your basis for hiring, or does that degree still matter, right? So this is all, this is not just me soliloquizing, this is where we're gonna get to something here. I guess another question then, let's shift away from that for a minute. How many of you would consider yourselves to have been non-traditional learners, people who didn't go through the four-year traditional, or five, or in my case, 11 years of getting a bachelor's degree? So only two people, three. All right, sorta, maybe a little bit. All right. Would a, so with maybe the three of you, I'm asking more than anyone else, but would you say that there should have been a better way of acknowledging what you knew besides a degree? I mean, were you able to do more things than your degree represented? No, right? This is pretty much what it, no? Well, just non-traditional. Did you take a traditional route to getting your education? Yeah, so that's, Temple University, not the Jewish. Which would be fine, I'm not saying. So you sorta had to force your education into that more traditional mold, even though you were sort of into your career already. Okay, that's good, that's good. All right, we'll get back to you in a minute. Just hang on, no, it's fine. All right, so that helps us to really get a sense of who folks are. So by and large, with a few notable exceptions, we're somewhat traditional, and we hire in traditional ways, and yet we're here at a summit, talking about how we can work around that system.