 and Happy New Year. I'm Mark Schwab, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're going to cross the sea to Maui, the valley isle, to meet Shannon Sheldon. Shannon is a partner in the law firm of McKeon Sheldon Mailing, which is located in Wailuku, Maui. As the new Hawaii State Bar Association President, Shannon is leading Hawaii lawyers into 2022. I've asked Shannon to talk about her background and her views of Hawaii and current events. Welcome, Shannon. It's good to see you. Thank you. Great to see you, Mark. And thank you to you and Think Tech for doing this. Okay, I want to get right into it. Let's pretend that we are meeting for the first time, and actually today is our first even virtual meeting, but at an HSBA event, and how would you introduce yourself to me? I mean, who is Shannon Sheldon? How would you describe yourself and why did you become a lawyer? Well, my 32nd elevator speech would be, hi, I'm Shannon Sheldon. I'm the current President of the Hawaii State Bar. I'm an attorney. I'm a practices condominium and community association law on Maui. But as we got to talking, especially if there was glass of wine involved, I'd probably tell you that I'm a 45-year-old woman from originally from Los Angeles, California, more specifically Pasadena, California, and proud mother, single mother, actually, of two daughters. I'm Jewish and I currently live up country in Maui. That's my that's my personal life. Okay, well, that's that is a lot in a short time. Thank you. That's a good good description, good, good to get to know you. Good to learn about you. I mean, you're a new president and you're and you're from of the Bar Association, you're from Maui. And I mean, I mean, you're on Maui, but you're not from Maui. And you came from the mainland to Hawaii. And what what attracted you to come and live in Hawaii in the first place? And what do you like about living and working in Hawaii? I assume you do. And that's why you're calling it your home. Yes, I've been here for 17 years, two years on Oahu and the remainder on Maui. I feel really lucky as a kid, I got to come to Oahu first, and then Maui with my grandparents, two different sets of grandparents. And as a kid, when you see that fire dancer and holo show for the first time, and you've had Shea Vice, you in the parents at the international marketplace, I mean, you fall in love with Hawaii. So that's, of course, the superficial aspect of it. But as you live in Hawaii, you realize that it's you're really lucky to be here. And it's the people that make these islands special. In California, I could not call the county and get a live person. Here I can call now I can call, you know, planning department, not only get a live person, but chances are I know them, or I know they're anti, right. And so that to me is the beauty of living in the islands is that it is a small population for those who live here. And it's friendlier and people are nicer in general. So that is primarily why I love living in Hawaii. And so that attracted you to Hawaii, those human elements. And and but but you also made the decision, I mean, you don't just come here for vacation, you live here, and you work here. And there, you know, a lot of kids, a lot of local Hawaii kids leave Hawaii. And so I mean, what, what's the difference there? What what kept you in Hawaii to work? And I know you've also worked and lived in many other locations. California, South Carolina, I believe, is that correct? You're close, North Carolina, North Carolina. Okay. And and and so you lived in different locations, but you ultimately chose Hawaii. And then I'll get into Maui in a bit. But I mean, what kept you or brought you and kept you working here, when so many of our local kids leave? And what is there something that we can learn about that that will help keep local kids here? Yeah, that's a great question. So I one of my personal agendas as the bar president is to try to fight what I've called or people call the brain drain, right, of local kids moving to the mainland, getting jobs there that do tend to pay more, you know, depending on where you live. And we lose some of our brightest and most successful students in the mainland. I personally, you know, was as a first year attorney probably making double or three times of what I made as a 10 year attorney here in Hawaii, right? So I understand why people move because it's a financial choice. But really, the financial cannot replace the values and the opportunities that you get living in Hawaii. Specifically, if I was on the mainland, if I was in California, I'm one of hundreds of thousands of attorneys, the chances of me ever being able to become bar president were probably zero to none, no matter how achieved and involved I was. Because there is just this rat race that occurs, you know, in California or other states that you don't get here, here in Hawaii, you are rewarded, I think on good before good work for working hard, you know, and it's not always about who you know, but the people you do know, you get to establish these mentors that will really help build you and carry you through your practice. I think the number one reason why anyone should want to work in Hawaii is because you can achieve and practice law in any field you really want to. If you want to be, you know, be public defender, you have an opportunity. If you want, even if you want to be a Supreme Court Justice, you don't necessarily have to have gone to Harvard to do so. You can, you can achieve that being here. And so I think that is the biggest draw for me is that it just provided a lot of opportunity and and again the people, the mentors I've established along the way have been, have been wonderful. And do you try to communicate that to young kids? Is that, is that what you're trying to do? Sorry, go ahead. You're talking about humanity in a way, something that's even greater than monetary reward, if you will, although money's important. I, I, you know, money's good, but I can see that your focus is on something else. Yes, there is, I don't think you can put a price on human connections and you, and you can't put a price on being able to work in a field that you love or that you desire or getting to choose your opportunities. And that's, that is what Hawaii presents, I think for our students. I did teach business law and international business law at the Mount UH Maui. And I would, I would encourage the students go to law school if you can stay in Hawaii. Unfortunately, the practical situation is we have one law school in Hawaii, it's on Oahu and there is no remote possibilities on any other islands. So if you do want to go to law school here, you, you have to move to Oahu. That's a barrier, unfortunately, to some of our brightest students on the neighbor island that I would like to help try to fix. Okay. And, you know, you've talked about a couple of things here. You practice law on Oahu, I know, and you also have moved, but you moved to Maui and you set up a firm in Maui. You know, what, why did you do that? You know, we all know that most of the lawyers in Hawaii are on Oahu. Most, although we practice on it on various islands also from Oahu, but you chose Maui. What, my Maui nuka oi? Is that, is that the message? Am I allowed to say that? Well, I love Oahu. I'm not one of the neighbor islanders that go to Oahu and are disgusted with the traffic. I'm originally from LA, so the traffic, you know, doesn't bother me. I love the food on Oahu. And when I, I was practicing in California as a patent attorney, and I applied for a firm which actually had an office on Oahu as well. It was Paul Johnson Park and Niles, and they had the Maui office and I had the opportunity to go to either. I purposely selected Maui mostly because I'm an adventure junkie and I like new things. And I had not lived on Maui. I'd already lived on Oahu. I really connected with, who is now my partner, Bill McKeon. He's from the same area that I practice now, another attorney named Dennis Niles, also from California. And I liked the smaller town feel of Maui. When I first interviewed, I took a walk into Wailuku town. It's old, it's historic. It's a little rundown, but it just has this gorgeous nostalgic old Hawaii feel, especially when you look up into the valley and you see Eow. And that was it. That's, that walk sold me and actually determined my fate. And then I feel lucky that I have practiced on Maui because it's a small, a small bar. I feel like I know almost every attorney on Maui. I know the judges and it's, it's a really wonderful place to practice law. And you know, okay. So, but you still want it to be the president of the bar. Why did you want to become president of Hawaii State Bar? And you, I mean, you must have known that it must be a little harder from someone from Maui to get to that role because mostly Oahu lawyers fill the bar presidency. What, what, what, what motivated you? I am big on community service and giving back as cheesy as that may sound. I was a recipient of the opportunity to do what's called the leadership institute program. And I think maybe you've, you've heard of that. It's, it's set up by the bar. It's eligible. I think attorneys that have been practicing three to 11 years are eligible and I, you go and you meet with, you know, judges and leaders of Hawaii and you get to ask them questions. And it's a really valuable program. And I really wanted to give back to the bar for that program. I also wanted to give back to the bar because I did, you know, a semester abroad at UH Manoa, you know, at William S. Richardson Law School and I met so many amazing attorneys playing in the et table, both on the bruiser side and the etay side. And I, I really felt like these, a lot of these attorneys, especially the professors like Denise Antolini, Casey Jarman, John Van Dyke, they took me under their wing. They really developed me as a law student. And I always feel like there is that gratitude and debt to pay to our bar for those who really helped me in Hawaii. You know, one thing you mentioned, uh, you, you took, I wasn't a year off from your, your Loyola Law School and went to UH, is that right? It was a semester. I also noticed that as an undergraduate, you spent a year in New Zealand. Is that right? Yes. And then need in on the South Island. And, and I mean, so I guess that goes to your adventurous nature, as you were mentioning, but I mean, what about that New Zealand? Why did you go to a foreign country and for a year? What was that about? Well, I, so I was an environmental biology major. I wasn't your typical pre-law student or criminal justice student. I really thought I was going to go into environmental law. And then the school I chose University of Otago had a great environmental law. Well, and I'm sorry, environmental biology program where we were in the field daily, you know, taking water samples and whatnot. And it was an incredible experience. I also at the time thought about, you know, eventually moving to New Zealand. It's a nuclear free country. I love islands. I got there. I was on the South Island. There were penguins. It I believe is the most southern university in the world. And it was, you know, four degrees. So needless to say, I wasn't going to stay in New Zealand, although it was an incredible experience. And it did help that they're English speaking and my foreign language skills are not very good. So that is also why I chose New Zealand. I see. Yeah. And was that international? I'm been involved in international law section of Hawaii Bar for quite a lot, number of years. Was that experience? How did you rate that? How was that? Was that good for you? You know, is it good for you now? What do you feel about that? I remember being there and saying to myself, this is going to be the best year of your life. And it was like I knew it. It you the growth, especially at that age when you're in college, and you're so selfish in college, right? And it's all about you. You really don't have much in the way of responsibilities. You have a job, maybe, you know, and you've got you got to get through class, but you don't necessarily have a family or kids. You don't, you know, you get to really be spoiled. And then and then being in America, you don't realize how privileged we are until you go to a foreign country. And New Zealand, you know, it's a foreign country, but it's still, you know, there was no central heat. I mean, I slept every night in a beanie and gloves. And there it's not like you go into the grocery store and have hundreds of options of candy bars, right? So it's it was very valuable in realizing, you know, the world should not necessarily revolve around America and the United States. And that you've got to learn to adjust to other social situations, other people. And and then of course, just the adventure and traveling, I did a lot of traveling alone. And I went to Australia and Indonesia and Fiji while I was there. And those, you know, just that travel alone taught me a lot about, you know, space, not, you know, not basic survival skills, but how to do without. You don't need all the luxuries that we have. And did you build relationships? Well, in with people in different countries that that way too. Absolutely. I still actually a couple of months ago, just talk to a friend of mine. Another friend of mine, she's she was at Earthjustice for a while. She became a lawyer as well. So so yes, I developed relationships. I also was a soccer player. So I played on their team on the Otago team. And I got to play in their Olympic trials, which was which was an incredible experience. And I'm still friends, you know, social media friends with some of those soccer players. That's very cool. Now, you know, you mentioned that you were thinking about, you know, environmental biology. Why did you become a lawyer? Well, what changed? What, what, what road did you take? That was New Zealand's fault and the cold's fault. So we would be out there for hours in a pond or a lake collecting guffees or whatever the animal was. And then you'd sit for hours in a computer lab running statistics. And I realized maybe environmental file just not every it's not you're not out with Gwynon monkeys, you know, creating in jungles like they make it look like a National Geographic, right? So I remember the LSAT was being offered. I had a week before it, you know, I signed up. I didn't take a class. I didn't study. I don't recommend that. But and I might have been the first and only person ever to take the LSAT in Zenith in New Zealand. And so it was really more a backup plan. Although the seed had been implanted in my brain. My father is a patent attorney. I think he was thrilled to hear when I felt that. So that was the reason for the career switch. And then and then I went straight from college to law school and I've been an attorney for 20 years. Okay. And during that time, you worked for your dad. How was that? What was that like? Part of that time was with your dad. And then you went to other states. What what what was going on? So yeah, so I actually right out of law school, I worked for my dad's competitor. I took the patent bar as a patent attorney because like, you know, you don't want to work for your dad right away. So although, you know, and and then I did eventually go work for my dad, he is the best mentor I've ever had. You know, he's he's brilliant. He took the time. I'm really thankful for that experience. But because he is such a successful and achieved attorney in his own right, I didn't always want to be known as Jeff Sheldon's daughter. You know, I wanted to pave my own path. And so that was also part of the impetus of moving to to Maui and leaving his firm was to, you know, start my start my own practice, start my own career. And lo and behold, I still do a lot of trademark work. I hardly do any patent. I do some copyright. But really, my brother in butter is doing condominium association law, which I never in a million years would have done unless I probably moved to Hawaii. So it is and it's a very fitting practice for my personality. So it was it was a good move for me. And you talked a lot about, you know, your development. Now, what what would you tell a young lawyer that would make them a good lawyer? What what are what are the traits of a good lawyer from based on your experience and your adventures out there? What could what could you tell a young lawyer now? I think the first trait is compassion. We lose sight of that as attorneys, especially when we're trying to respond to hundreds of clients and thousands of emails. But if you have ever personally been in litigation, and I hope you haven't marked, but I have. It's horrible. And you, you know, you don't want your deposition, you don't want to go to trial. It's so stressful. And so I think compassion is one, the number one trait you need to have as an attorney, you have to try to step in their shoes and remember how it can feel with that type of stress and uncertainty. And with that compassion, then you're going to make good decisions on behalf of your client. You're not going to make decisions because you want to make more money, right? You're going to look for settlement or solutions and be solution oriented, as opposed to just spinning your wheels or fighting with opposing counsel. So to me, that is the number one trait. The number two trait I would say is communication skills. As attorneys, we are reading and writing and special emails all the time. You have to have strong communication skills. You have to be able to talk to someone in a manner that they understand what direction you're taking your case. And so the most useful class I ever took that my dad made me take actually, and I hated it at the time, because I wanted to take art, you know, or drama, but he made me take a speed reading in summer school. And I don't think they offered it anymore, but I wish they did. That was the most valuable class because I read hundreds of emails a day. So it's very useful. I really like that answer, you know, compassion and communication. That those are really, I mean, you could teach a class on that. Maybe you have, but that's that is really good advice. You know, and let me, let me ask you for some more advice. You know, in our American society right now, there's a lot of divisions and aggravated by lawsuits and, you know, legal actions and lawyers, and is, and that adds, of course, to the stress of the pandemic. Is there anything that lawyers and bar associations, especially now with your position, is there anything that can be done to help those divisions be healed or reduce the stress? That's an excellent question. And this is the one that actually keeps me up at night, because I think when you're in a leadership position, you are looking for solutions, you're looking to help our members, right? I think that the best way to deal with the political strife, you know, you didn't say that, but I think that might be what you're alluding to is for the bar to provide opportunities on both sides. So for example, if there is going to be a CLE, where there's a presenter who was, you know, Trump's count, you know, President Trump's counsel, or there's going to be a presenter for Obama's counsel, we allow both, right? And we do as a bar. We are very open minded to allowing both sides of the coin to express their views. And where we have to be mindful as the members themselves need to be open minded. We, it doesn't, it doesn't help anyone when you're on the attack or when you're on the defensive necessarily. You, you don't have to agree, obviously, and we won't. But it's, it is respectful to give people their platform, let them say what they want to say, as long as it's not harassing, racist, sexist, you know, and, and let them have their say. And at the end of the day, if you don't agree, you don't agree, but do not attack. Because I think that is part of the division is when people are shutting down the other side, right? And people just sometimes want to be heard. We hear that with our clients, right? We hear that with the opposing opposing parties. They just want to be heard. And that's, you know, why mediations tend to be successful, because they're finally getting to be heard. So I think if we apply those same principles to our membership, we hopefully can mend some of some of the strife that has happened. More good advice. I appreciate that. That, that is also, I think, a trademark of a good lawyer, probably, too, is to allow people to say and talk. Yeah, I like that. Now, with respect to your beginning as the HSBA president, I guess you've had a couple days already, but what are your priorities for the year? What are you looking for? What do you want to develop as the president? Well, the priority for the last two years under both Greg Frey, which I don't know if you got to interview him and Levi, both who were excellent presidents. Every president that comes in has their personal agenda. And they, I'm sure, had their personal agenda. And unfortunately for them, whatever their agenda would have gotten thrown aside because of COVID. And we're dealing with all those hurdles that are being thrown at the HSBA. And I was hoping in 2022, I would get to not have to deal with that. But obviously, that's not the case with our numbers that are record high. So my agenda item, my priority will have to be and will be keeping our members safe, but connected during COVID. Our struggle for the HSBA right now is the last two years we have not been able to hold our annual dinner. And hence, that means less money. And what that means is less money for our programs that really need it, like YLD and our public outreach programs. So my second priority in addition to trying to keep our members safe is to raise funds in alternative ways. I think we're looking at doing a silent auction, whether or not we hold a bar dinner, but we'll do a silent auction, which will hopefully allow to raise funds to go to these programs. Okay, we have about a minute left. And in that minute, I want to ask you what have you learned over the past couple of years from all the things that have been going on about life and law? What what has affected you? What have you learned? I feel like we might have all learned that we've all heard this word pivot, right? Another word for that would be be flexible. You can plan all you want. It's just going to get thrown out the window. So you have to be resilient, you have to be flexible, and you can't let the bastards drag you down. You've always got to look at least I do. I try to always look for that silver lining, and there always tends to be one. And that's been my motto that's been getting me through the last couple of years. Okay, well, Shannon, as the new president, I'm very impressed and thankful that we have you to lead us into the new year. I appreciate you being my guest today, and look forward to what the future holds. Aloha. Aloha. Thank you, Mark. It was a pleasure.