 Hello everyone. How are you? I am so grateful to be here today with you all as we celebrate the continued artistic expressions presented through the new American Theater Fest put on by in the margin. My name is Whitney Reed. I am the founder of the Urban Window, which is a marketing and communications firm working to elevate QT representation within the theatrical field for media and news coverage. Today we're here to have a really emerging conversation. The title of today's conversation is Power in Theater Coalition Building and we have some incredible leaders on this live today. I would love to introduce all of them and we will have that time but first I would like to acknowledge the land that we're on. Thank you for thanking the original caretakers of this land. I come to you from the land of the Piscataway, also now known as Silver Spring, Maryland. I ask that as everyone introduces themselves, that they have the opportunity to also speak and acknowledge the land that they are on, as well as the descendants of those original caretakers of the land. I am so happy because they are on this call today, because they are watching today, and we're so grateful for some of the forced sacrifice, but also figuring out better ways that we can be a part of a true authentic land back movement. So, I am so happy again to be here, and I would love each person, as we're on this call, to talk a little bit about themselves and the organization that they're here representing. First off, I think it would be amazing to start with Leo Greerson of Juvenalia Collective. Thank you with me. Hello everyone, my name is Leo Greerson, he they I currently reside on the lands of the Shasta and Tekelma people. Thank you all so much living descendants of these people for taking care of this land and I'm going to work tirelessly to make sure that we get it back into your hands. And I am the artistic director of the Juvenalia Collective, and we are a multimedia collective primarily focusing on theater and podcasts that bring an adult theater for with a youth tinted edge or sometimes call ourselves a youth theater for adults. We focus on coming of age stories of underrepresented groups, and we're very interested in exploring multimedia in that realm, and we are so happy to be a partnering company within the margin on the new American Theater Festival. Beautiful, thank you so much Leo. Let's move on on to CJ Ochoko with Breaking the Wave Theater Company. Today, my name is CJ Ochoko, I go by she her pronouns, coming today from the land of Turkey. I am part of Breaking Wave Theater Company, we are a nonprofit theater company that's based out on Guam. I'm not currently on Guam right now, but we do our work on Guam primarily and we are a community based organization that aims to use theater for personal and social change. And yeah, we're super excited to be here. And yeah, that's me. Amazing. Thank you so much CJ. Let's go over to Lindsay, Lindsay Burch with B Street Theater. Hi everyone really excited to be here. Thank you Whitney. My name is Lindsay, she her pronouns, and residing on the land of the Milwaukee Wally and the Shannon peoples, colonally known as Sacramento, California, where the Sophia home of the B Street Theater is located. We are one of the producing partners for the new American Theater Festival with in the margin who will be introduced shortly. And we focus on new works and contemporary plays and as you know just being open the predominantly white institution here. So we're both in this panel, meaning we're doing our work both internally and externally to create partnerships and relationships that will help to uplift marginalized voices and tell those stories. Beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Let's move on to the one and only jazz hall with the womb collective. Hi Whitney. Hi folks my name is jazz hall my pronouns are they them. And I am the artistic director curator, producer of womb the creation space, which is a meant to be a safe space for queer independent BIPOC artists to come together to share support and create. So I find myself in great company here with itm and the Juvenile a collective and see Joe Joe with breaking wave. And I also have to just give a huge shout out to how around for sponsoring our ASL interpretation by the urban jazz dance company and our wonderful Valerie and Benny, who will be joining us tonight. I honestly I'm just so grateful to be here in space and I'm also calling in from the lands of the new coach tank and Piscataway people also known as Washington DC. Beautiful. Beautiful. And last but certainly not least, we have real Alanis Vargas with in the margin. Go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself. Hi everyone. My name is real Vargas Alanis. They series. And I am calling in from. No, not. Sorry, my series now. My series like hey what's up calling in from your territory. So in the margin we are a service minded community oriented arts and advocacy company composed of multifaceted intersectional creative producers and community organizers. ITM seeks to break patterns and cycles of harm individually collectively and globally to carve capacity for the ever changing and ever evolving forms of storytelling that inspire a radically inclusive equitable accessible intersectional and just future. I'm the artistic director of the margin and I am so excited to be here with everyone. It's been quite it's been a pleasure to work with each of these folks and each of their companies and collectives and organizations. And I'm just excited to dive into further conversation. Yeah, send it back to you Whitney. Absolutely. I mean we're going to keep it really easy really really breezy. And, you know, I like to say that we're all friends we're all family here. I mean as a member of ITM a proud member of ITM. I really enjoy the work that you all do individually and through your company and some of you all in relation to ITM. My first question for anyone that wants to go first is a question that I usually have when I'm talking about leadership. My question is, when did you realize that you could not do it by yourself. Because as we talk about coalition building. We're really talking about reaching out to people that have skills and capabilities that you may not either have or you might not have the capacity to hold within your company. So my question is, when did you realize that you could not do it by yourself. And I'll actually let's start with, let's start with in the margin. I think because we're here with an ATF the new American Theater Festival, the, the, I guess you can't really say the first annual but the first new American Theater Festival I'd love to talk with you about when do you realize you couldn't do it by yourself because you connect with so many different companies, you connect with so many different artists creatives curators, not only giving them an opportunity to be seen, but also allowing your company to grow into the magnitude that you will be for hopefully the next 100 years so or until it's no longer needed so yeah let's talk about let's talk about when do you realize you couldn't do it alone. It's, it's not about when I realized that I can't do it alone, it's realizing that I don't want to do it alone. And so for me, it's from the get go is resource sharing not even resource sharing is more of just collaborating. So a lot of the folks that I work with are folks that I've followed for a long time, people that I have intersected with people that I have worked with, whether individually, or through a project or via a different organization that we had the pleasure of intersecting with where life just kind of found us in that same space from that same place and wherever in the world we were in right at that moment. And it's having crafting and having and developing those relationships and dynamics are very vital. And to me, it was more of, there is a movement that is happening. How do we contribute to this movement because it might seem more as a, a big form of advocacy. It's one of our biggest forms of community organizing. And so the way that I approach it is as a community organizer and activist. And so it was about how do I bring in and who do I bring in to help us continue to craft this new American theater that we want to see and that we deserve to see. And how do we uplift one another in order to achieve that, because I intersect with so many beautiful wonderful artists and work with incredible companies. And so it's what can we, if what we can do individually is powerful and if as individuals, we are strong leaders and very powerful entities. What are the possibilities when we come together to create something. And so an ATF is one of the examples of what can happen when we all come together to create something. And the way I say it is, we sometimes get in a in theater sometimes we get pitted against each other and, especially when it comes from marginalized folks, because there's such a scarcity mindset that we need to fight one another, or be against one another to get like a little crumb, or some sort of like small commission or this or that. But it's how do we work together to get a whole damn loaf of bread or an entire bakery. So, yeah, that that's just a little bit about that. And I'll send it over to whoever wants to expand on that or get. Yeah, I guess this is going to sound very cliche, especially coming from a youth oriented theater but I would say I knew I couldn't do it alone when I was on the playground, making stories with my friends and and building narratives together that way which of course we didn't know it at the time but we called it playing and I think playing is always more fun when you're doing it with friends and I kind of approach collaboration the exact same way I think it should always come from a place of joy and building narratively together. And this idea of sharing resources like sharing snacks on the playground like oh you give me a bit of your sandwich I'll take some of your pudding. And then we're all eating. And that's, that's the feast that's the coming together that's the play and I think what has propelled me forward in my leadership and in my collaboration with these wonderful folks here is that I love playing with them. I always make the playing really, really fun and and and leading from a place of desire to experience joy together which is really radical. And that's, yeah, just taking it from a child like perspective that way when I was like when I was a kid. Awesome. Whoever is next my internet's unstable isn't it. You sound great to me so good. I haven't experienced it yet. Hey CJ, can you talk a little bit about when you realize you couldn't do it alone, or when you realize that you you had to incorporate other folks or why you wanted to incorporate other folks within within your company. Yeah, so I think we I realized we couldn't do it alone from the very beginning from the get go in 2018 when we were when me and my colleagues were coming up with this idea of like hey let's let's start a nonprofit theater company I've long. There hadn't been one for about 10 to 15 years prior to us jumping in so we were kind of you know out of going out on a limb and just trying to figure it out. And I think when you from the get go that it was definitely going to be more than just like the five of us who had begun the company. And it wasn't until January of 2020 when I had the opportunity to meet so many of the folks on this call right now through through my time at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival that that you know idea of building across the ocean you know because we're so far away for those who don't know where Guam is it's in the middle of the Pacific Ocean we are, you know, we're, we're standing alone there and we're technically you know US territory but we're so far removed geographically that it is a little bit challenging to build these connections and with time there and then of course with the pandemic and the rise of the virtual space, it finally became a reality for us to connect with theaters, and to really reach across, you know the ocean really, and connect so I'm definitely you know, we always say there's not good things about this pandemic but we are grateful for this space that brought us a little bit closer to everyone else. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much CJ. Hey jazz, can we talk a little bit about what it means to not do this alone. Yeah, for sure. It's so interesting I feel as someone who like navigates the world dealing with imposter syndrome and coming from like a survival as type upbringing right like I learned very early on to be very independent and to try to solve everything on my own and honestly coming to this work and being in space with other like wonderful beautiful collaborators from all different walks of life and backgrounds like it really was not necessarily. Well, let's be honest, I am not an editor I spent the pandemic trying to teach myself to edit I spent the pandemic trying to teach myself so many other new skills because I was trying to hold all of this by myself and it's like well first off. There are other people who already have the skills where that's the thing that they love doing the thing that brings them joy and so like why not offer up one like save myself from that and offer up space for people to create inside of their medium. But also like I as one individual in with the intention of creating a truly collaborative space that can hold any and everyone from all walks of life, like who am I to say that my one experience and my one vantage point on the world can truly encapsulate or include people from other experiences and walks of life so like honestly it was less of like a point in time of like when I felt I needed to expand and more so like. Oh my gosh what a disservice I'm doing to myself into our community at large if I don't expand and allow just other people to come into this space and fill it up with themselves and their voice to. We're all seeking community and to be included and I think that that community needs to be as colorful and as diverse as it wants to be so that we can really capture the folks that are in need of that space. And also to I just want to circle back to something that real said that I think it's just so poignant. But I mentioned the scarcity mindset that like people have come from and I also just want to name to that like I don't know that the scarcity mindset is like a naturally occurring thing. I think it's just about something that's been imposed on people by the systems at large and so I think that this work, the more collaborative we allow ourselves to become and the more people that we bring into this to branch out is really just working to help undo that and like unweave that I don't know nasty web that we've all been caught up in and I don't know allow us to see like a new way of being as we move forward artistically and collaboratively. I love the concept of this not just being something that happens, but having some sort of context to give us understanding of how we can actually move forward so we can have some clear vision in our missions. Yeah, speaking of context Lindsay, let's talk a little bit about when you realize as a white led organization that you could not do this alone, right and and not only that you could not do it alone or when you realize you couldn't do it alone, but what you might have to shift in your organization to actually be a safe space for QT BIPOC folks to work with you as you built this coalition. Yeah, I, you know I've been listening to everyone and so many relatable things with the scarcity mindset and you know theater not really having this mentality that rising tide raises all ships it's kind of like only one person can be on this ocean, which is so incorrect and obviously it's no secret that with the murder of George Floyd and the racial reckoning that was happening in America that reckoning was happening in a microcosm in the in the theater community. At large, everything from Broadway to smaller groups and regional theaters were wrestling with this idea of what does it look like to be an anti racist institution or a multicultural or inclusive organization, and what, how far are we from that and what steps need to be taken to to work towards that it's not going to happen overnight, but changes can be made. And for me the biggest shift that I think had to be made in my thinking and in the organization's thinking and continue to be worked on is this idea of a gatekeeper who is saying yet we're going to do that play and these actors and that director and really just perpetuating their own networks in a large sense the folks that they have had connections with which frankly at a predominantly institution can be predominantly white artist, and saying, what happens if you open that gate, and you're not saying yes to this person's work and no to this person's work but you're building a coalition in which everyone's work can thrive and be developed and supported in the way that that particular needs to be. And I think also it's a theater is obviously a very goal oriented art form right in a lot of ways we're working towards an opening or press review or what have you. And I think in a lot of ways that that is, it's a function of white supremacy in those systems that have said like, you know, to, to rush some, you know to work towards something so specific when what happens when we can all come together to develop work and support without some specific expectation of where it has to be and where it has to go within a certain timeline. So I think those are really two specific things that have come to light for me throughout this collaborative process, and I think it's things that we have to continue to work on as an organization. And this is, it's also been amazing. I in my theater career I've heard like, Oh, you know, our theater has a hit show and theirs doesn't or theirs does so we don't. And like this idea that we can all come together and that everyone's work can be elevated in a helpful and supportive way is, is a shift in thinking that I think needs to happen across the industry. Absolutely. I have a question. I'm really interested in how you implement this one in this need on a daily basis, like within your company, within, you know, your colleague group. How do you, as someone who works at B street. Not just help to dismantle white supremacy, but how do you actually work to ensure that the coalition that you are building with other QT by pop organization organizations is not ruined, right by someone within your org, who might have some work to do. I think that's a really great question and I, that's something I struggle with a course because as we've come at this from our organizational standpoint with our staff and our board of directors, it becomes pretty immediately clear that within a white led institution. Everyone can be at different points of readiness to achieve to begin the work to continue the work to to wherever they're at in their process. And there's of course, the balance between pushing them to be there and then alienating them by, you know, putting them in a position where they're going to completely shut down and not be ready or even willing to engage in those conversations. And I think it is, it's a challenge because we, I don't. I don't know I struggle with personally, we're having a conversation right so I struggle personally with like, I'm protecting the partners and the coalition. And then wondering how helpful that is for the rest of the staff, because I do know the places that some folks are in and part of me says I want to put these people in a bubble and like kind of protect their interactions with that individual. But then what good does that ultimately do for everyone. Right, if this person is not going to learn anything or make any progress, if they are siloed and allowed to continue their way of thinking. So, to me it's, it's about at least attempting and bringing people in at the beginning of the process and sort of so they understand the goals of what we're trying to do and that this is not as long as I'm with this organization at least that's all I can speak for this is not a one off event. This is an ongoing relationship that is going to be cultivated. There's going to be successes there's going to be challenges and we have to come together to continue it. And you know I that's, and then I think you know we've I've had some some wonderful conversations with these folks and I think transparency amongst this coalition is really important, and just speaking up about things that might have caused harm. And then learning how to have those. That's part of my ongoing learning is how to have those conversations where with the folks who were harmed and then with the folks who caused that harm and how we can mend those those bridges because it will happen. But the progress is in how we approach it and how we prevent it from continuing to happen and being perpetuated. Right. Thank you so much for sharing I really appreciate it as you were talking I was like, yes, it's real we are on how round a real conversation is happening. I'm so grateful to just be here in this space where we can have some real conversations and really like break it down let's talk about you know the opera, the operationalizing of coalition building. So I'm really, as you were talking I was thinking about like, Oh, wait, like there are rainbows and there are like red flags and every, every opportunity to build right, and so I kind of want to like anyone is really interested in like the rainbow like what do you see in a company or an organization that makes you that's magnetic that makes you lean into wanting to build something with them. And then like, what is the red flag, like what is the thing that makes you say like absolutely not I'm staying away, like I would, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole so anyone that feels moved to speak you're more than welcome. So what do you think in regards to the rainbow. It's about who aligns with my organization's mission and vision, who is currently doing the work, quote unquote who's doing the work since that's always something that we hear. It's kind of like who's actually implementing things. Who's the one who is doing something that is not just lip service. Sorry to interrupt can in this moment, can we just decolonize doing the work by talking about implementing so go ahead, go do your thing. I, in regards to, I'm sorry I'm just over the term doing the work. Because it's very much like, okay you're doing the work to treat everyone fairly. You can that doesn't come to you naturally, but apparently it doesn't. And so that's the thing that the rainbow to me is, who is the one treating folks fairly and equally, who is. Who is also creating arts, and not just who is creating art that is also pushing the button in equity. Who are the folks that are on the frontline. Who are the folks that also have a community centered vision who has the, the willingness to collaborate and have that open space, who is welcoming. And who are the folks that are kind of yes anders that they're like, cool I love that let's let's figure it out. And I think something that we as QT BIPOC folks tend to not receive our opportunities and opportunities to fail. And I say fail because for me failure is not doing it. For me if something does not go the way that you thought it, you still did it, and you're not with a what if. And so, one of the things that happens within PWIs is that we are not really allotted any opportunity to fail and we have to be, we have to be successful or else you close the door to you through everyone who shares an identity that you do. And you're expected to represent that identity. And so those are the red flags for me. The rainbows are the ones who say, let's try it. Lex experiments, this is something new that's innovative. Fuck it let's let's go and if it doesn't work out then it doesn't work out and we know for next time. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. The yes anders definitely stuck with me. And the conversation around being the representation for everyone behind you is, I feel that so strong, like so strongly. And I think it's really important that as we talk about coalition building. We talk about these red flags about folks who are creating these relationships with other theatrical organizations, or other advocacy organizations can really be clear and have somewhat of a roadmap by not only watching this conversation, but letting this conversation be a starting point. As they move forward. Any other rainbows or red flags that that you'd love to, you know, archive at this point. I'll say one more thing. In regards to that. One of the biggest things that I love is intersectionality, because leaning into with itm. The reason I love coalition building is because you will interact with an array of people. And that's how we learn. That's how we learn from one another. That's how we learn compassion, empathy, a better understanding. And this is how you create some like dope arts. When you have all of these different perspectives. And so the red flags to me don't also just come from PWIs sometimes or a lot of times it comes from not coalitions or not coalitions theater groups that are one identity, because then it goes into its own thing so I'll speak in regards to like the Latina community, where then folks tend to try to to control what that is. What does it mean to be Latinae, and then people then fight over the terminology of Latin X and Latinae and the beautiful colonized language of Spanish, and how it needs to be up kept and upheld. In the native, like theater scene it's very much like, are you native enough to say this, are you native enough to do this, are you native enough for blah blah blah and upholding blood quantum. And they're like indigenous activism quote unquote. And so that's another red flag is how are these folks showing up because all can all skin folks are not can folks. So it's, how are these folks showing up and what work are they doing to elevate people from their communities or intersectional communities. And if it is gatekeeping or trying to impose their views on to you because they feel that they are the key holder of latinidad or nativeness those are that's a huge red flag for me. Thank you. Thank you so much. Same with queerness. Absolutely. Yeah, and I definitely want to piggyback off of that. And yes, and all of your like classification of what falls under the rainbow and add for myself to to that. The, like, yes, folks seeking inclusivity and doing the actual work on the ground, but also to like Lindsay's previous point to like people are all starting out from their different places of understanding and I think that it gets so easy to look at this in like black and white and like this is a good person and that is a bad person when like it, everything in our life, queerness, whatever is like a spectrum. And so like there has to be space for people to, there has to be room for people to be able to grow and change and learn, which I feel like is, I don't know, one of the most beautiful things I find about the human condition is that we can always expand and we can always grow and we can always learn. And so if you feel so compelled to do so. And so to that I also just want to add like this notion that like, oh, PWIs as a whole, like are inherently negative, like, versus like, Oh yeah, if there are organizations of people of color that potentially have no harm that they're enacting either, when both organizations, both groups potentially have come up underneath the same system that we all have to individually take responsibility for like, and that's the rainbow for me is where there will be specific individuals inside of an organization taking responsibility for where they are owning where they are where they may be lacking where they need to move forward and grow. So I really respect Lindsay like some of the things that you were naming as part of like your own like, you know, things that you would like to grow in for yourself, because you can't speak for an organization organization is the some of its parts it's made up of the who are pushing forward the mission. And so I say like, we all have have the potential to have internalized something whether it's been passed down or learned or whatever. We all have the potential to have internalized something that does not serve us and or does not serve our community at large and the people that we want to uplift and grow forward toward and ultimately like the scaffolding of the world that we want to see and as collaborators. And so I guess that's maybe my two part of like, that's the rainbow for me and the red flags are when people are like staunchly stuck in their ways and don't think that they're the problem and want to point fingers and, you know, talk about exactly as I was saying but like the work that we have to do when like the work feels like such a vague term and it also feels like finite as if it's not an ongoing lifelong journey to continue to unpack and unseed and then plant new seed and kind of move forward towards a better version and healthier version of yourself. And all of that, ultimately, when we as artists and the art comes from us from our soul like all of that feeds into the betterment of the collaborative. Yeah. Yes, Andy, all of what jazz said and all of what we all said. I think, for me, a green flag is is always allowing its members to be human and allowing them grace jazz something that you said that stuck with me that you kind of started when Lindsay shared shared her piece but Yeah, we are all like the work. We love the aircoats is is ongoing and and organizations that that work to know how to like apologize to their artists and take responsibility for their own fallibility is is always a big rainbow flag. I've encountered that a lot in my own work as a leader like you mess up, and other people mess up and just like allowing grace between artists is like a really rainbow flag for me. unrelated a big red flag for me with organizations is when they're more concerned with their, their bag and then their art. And I've been at a lot of places where the concerns and desires of the, I will just name it we're on how around I'm going to do it. The older white folks who patronize the theater are more important than the things that the artists want to say, and more important than move using the art to actually say something. And that's always a big red flag for me when they're going to prioritize the money over the art I understand it's money is hard and tight we're all struggling artists and I super get that but there are so many ways in which to, to make the art of priority while still prioritizing your, your mission statement and when companies do that by the wayside. That's a red flag. I think it's a time to have a deeper discussion with those companies when do you know when to continue the conversation and when to end the conversation and take your, your company or are going to different direction. Yeah, absolutely. I've definitely been in experiences with companies where they are like well we can't do this play because if we do this play the old white folks don't want to come see it, or they will complain and that is a moment where I think, for me it's well that I have to take my art elsewhere, because you are in a position where you either have, if you have a subscriber base or a patron base that is going to react poorly to works by QT BIPOC artists. Maybe it's worth alienating that base and you have to find another base if you don't want racist homophobic transphobic patrons and placating those patrons is playing into white supremacy to transphobia to all of those things. So when it becomes a choice between the art and not alienating a subscriber base that is racist transphobic all of these things. That's the moment for me. Beautiful. I'm just just, I'm so sorry just because you sparked something. What is that organization doing to uphold that, if that is their audience base. Could you read, I'm not quite sure I understand the question. No no no it's not a question. It's rhetorical. So what is, you know, just for, for those who, you know, may need more context, are you also kind of pointing out the fact or asking the rhetorical question of what is the organization organization doing to uphold white supremacy what is the organization doing to uphold oppression. Is that a part of the context. Okay. Yeah, so you know how, how Leo was saying that if their audience base or their donors or their patrons, etc. are offended by this kind of intersectional new works or any kind of diversity, etc. What has the organization itself been doing to craft and create that culture and to have made it stand that long. Absolutely. It makes me think about another question and CJ if you want to add anything you are more than welcome. Would you like to go ahead. Everyone has, I'm just in agreement with everyone and I think just to build off of that just finding the rainbow is in the organizations that are willing to break down the barriers and the structures. I think with arts organizations and theaters we just get so caught up in like the structures and the bureaucracy and finding theater partners like in the margin who are so willing to break down those structures and just really focus on the art and the advocacy that to us with Breaking Wave that's just the people we seek out. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. All of those conversations really sparked something for me, especially because we for me in my head. I think a lot about like capitalism and how we have to literally survive so when we talk about this coalition building, you know, growing our communities, especially it's, you know, QT BIPOC folks is just a part of our different cultures. It just is what it is. And my question when it comes to coalition building is, is there a time that you've seen or experienced the red flag that you have still worked with an organization because they were able to fund your project, or there will be the capacity for an organization to fund your project. And I apologize if this is asking for a little bit too much transparency. I just want to have this conversation I really want to be able to understand. Yes, there, has there ever been a time that you've seen a red flag and you still move forward because you wanted your company to grow. And the, the company that you were working with, could possibly bring bring your, your organization into a wider lens for a wider audience. Usually it's a no for me, because it's the reason that in the margin started is to avoid that. The reason that in the margin exists is because we're tired of it, we're exhausted of it. So, if that is something the institution that we are partnering with cannot, if we cannot collaborate in that sense, then it's like, okay, then we just don't align. And usually now, sometimes, because we do lead with grace and also I, as it's been mentioned prior when there's reparations or there's an attempt and willingness to, as also Lindsay and Leo and we're not we're saying is to like mend bridges or to have that kind of opportunity to discuss things be transparent and work together to try to mend. Then of course there might be like opportunities to mend said relationships, but sometimes it's one of those things of like, I don't want to keep doing the work for you. I don't want to keep educating you. I don't want to keep like having you learn by your mistakes that cause harm towards us. And there are some times where it has to be strategic. And that sucks. Like, it really sucks where sometimes we have to swallow our pride and go like, Well, this is going to look really great if it slapped on to if their logo slapped on to one of our things and yada yada, even though they treat it like shit or blah blah blah blah. And then when you get to the certain point when you're like, Oh, it's, yeah, it's it's a very strategic thing but usually it's a note for me. What about you CJ, I'm kind of interested in your thoughts around this, especially experiencing your work. Prior to this. Yeah, I think it's just, we haven't had the opportunity yet. Actually, I think this coming next year is going to be the first time we'll be working with organizations outside of like grant organizations to actually produce work so we'll see you get a more concrete answer for that next year. But definitely, I can definitely see the challenge with a place like one we really we have there's limited resources in terms of the money that's funneling into the arts back home. Just because of our status of like, being a US territory, we get into some weird things with grants where they're like, Well, you're not quite the US, you're not 50 states comma Puerto Rico. And so we definitely have a lot less opportunities for grants than we'd like. And so I could imagine that if we ran into the situation where an organization were to try to fund us that you know it may be a little bit difficult but I definitely would agree with Ray Allen leaning on that as well, because with breaking way we also, you know we're founded as a way to have this space for community theater, a way to not have to be, you know, controlled by government organizations or schools and not having to fit into a box. And so I definitely think if the opportunity were to arise where we were to be funded by an organization that had some red flags, I'd, I'd really hope we'd say no and I will save this down to remember. But yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you jazz or Lindsay Leo. It's a great time that you've ever had to step away from an opportunity what seemed like a great opportunity to others but didn't necessarily connect or a time that you went forward even though you knew that it didn't connect with the core mission and purpose and vision of your Yeah, I mean I think I struggle with that this at the donor level. And we base, I basically had to we with our producing artistic director. I asked one of our largest, you know, talking to the tune of half a million almost a million dollars to step away because I'm just going to quote him he said he would not give us any more money if we continue to use the blacks on stage. And we said, and he used that as a threat. And we called his bluff, and we no longer see him. And, and to me that's just a very clear example of saying, great, you can head out of the door now. But then there's kind of what we were discussing before there's these other sort of more gray area examples where you feel like taking money from. I think one of the wealthier older white people is giving them the idea that you're just going to perpetuate what they want to see on stage, and it kind of makes it feel like they have something over you. You know, like there, you're in some way have to answer to them which is not true. But I think it's that sort of, you know, standing up and saying just because you gave us money does not mean that we have to show only what you relate to on our stage. And I think that's a conversation that I hope is becoming bigger in the American theater because previously folks have said, Well, our donors are subscribers, etc, etc. You know but that really can't be an excuse or a reason. So I think that that is, that's just a very, it's a hard and delicate relationship. And also, knowing when to say thanks but no thanks. You know your services are no longer required. Your support is no longer required for the direction that we're going as an organization. Absolutely. I'm sorry, I just want to take a moment, just because we are live and we are, you know, streaming to people all over the country and internationally, just to take a bit of a breath for anyone who may have been triggered by you know some of the communication or have experienced those kind of like workplace violence is no matter what your social location is I just wanted us to take like a quick little breath, because a lot of us know how to push through. But this is supposed to be a safe space so I just want to acknowledge that on this live stream right now and just take a little second joy. Amazing go ahead jazz. Thank you Whitney. Yeah. Yes, ending to everything that has already been said. I, there's something so amazing. Now, in this day and age, especially with the advent of like technology moving as fast as it has and with like the ability for us to connect like the fact that I know the the brilliance that is CJ Ochoko even though like she was based in Guam previously and I was here in the States you know, there's something about the world becoming smaller that allows collaboratives like in the margin like the work that we're doing here to exist with or without funding right like artists are going to create art because that is the thing that they are called to do. And there are people who will do that for free, not that they should it is work and they should be paid and compensated for their time and their brilliance and the things that it brings to you but like that doesn't stop the artists from creating. So, I know to them that to your question with me I feel like I'm able to balance. Knowing that I have spaces like in the margin that I have spaces like wound which is truly just an incubator it really is just like highlighting artists who are already doing the thing that they want to do and saying like hey, I want to tell my friends about you I'm already going to do that show let's do it over here right like balancing having spaces like that with the strategic to raise point and to Lindsay's point like the strategic choices to potentially put myself as a barrier, or a protective barrier as opposed between my artists the people that I want to support and uplift and an institution. And to circle back to our previous conversation to an understanding that there are gray areas that it is a spectrum and that we hope that people have the opportunity and the impetus to change who am I to say to an organization that obviously is showing me a red flag that this is the only way they'll ever be and it's the way that they'll always be right like I like I feel like there still has to be someone who says no I will not stand for that or that is not okay. I find a special strange type of joy in being able to use my voice in that way to say like oh that's actually a red flag and I'm going to call you on that just so you know like yeah we're collaborating together thank you for this funding like maybe I won't choose to work with them again in the future on a project ultimately it's their response that tells me if it's something that's worth pursuing if it's something that can grow toward better. But that's the thing like just like we've experienced everyone in the world has experienced a grievance toward themselves personally or artistically whatever. But it is always in the naming of that grievance and then being able to gauge how someone responds to it if it's worth continuing a conversation. So I don't know I find myself hopeful that I can leave an imprint on organizations not that that's my responsibility, it is not. But I'm going to speak my truth in whatever space I'm in and if it helps push an organization a PWI or what have you toward a better version of itself and great. And. Yeah, yeah, there's more ruminating in there but I think I'll leave it there. Absolutely, absolutely. Leo did you have something that you wanted to add. Very briefly, I, the juvenilia collective has only partnered with itm up and to this point. So we're very blessed in that regard to have to have a lot of rainbows, but I know that personally as an artist I have definitely been in jobs or in positions and a lot of red flags and because of how it would look on a resume because I'm still very much like an emerging artist or whatever that means I pushed through and I have a lot of regrets about that and I the moments where I did stand up for myself or for injustices I was witnessing. They're difficult and challenging but always ultimately rewarding. And I, I really want to thank all of you on this panel for sharing because I think it's, it's emboldening to hear and inspiring to hear. And, yeah, I guess more ruminating but yeah I have definitely pushed through some red flags when I maybe should have pumped the brakes and said hold on. This is not okay. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that in that moment of vulnerability I really appreciate that. I think a few people on this call or on this live stream also do as well as we get ready to just add one more thing. I've said this already, but just to restate is this is always not with PWIs, like it can happen with BIPOC or queer theaters as well. Sometimes our missions or our visions don't align. And sometimes that's okay. And other times it's like, it's okay we're in different spaces, I guess. And so be it but that just means that we won't collaborate. And I hope that the work that you are doing is serving your communities or whoever it is that you're serving. But I just wanted to state that as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. I appreciate you for stating that right like we're all, we are all working we are all works in progress no matter what our social location is no matter what our cultural background is like we are all, all have something to work on. So one thing I talk a lot about is making sure that we don't create these, these trauma bonds right around our oppression, no matter what our social location is right. And so the way that I want to end this call is with a lot, you know, with, with what we would call one of my form organizations a love fest. So I'm really interested in ending this call with a love fest, not only for real on an Alanis but I'm really interested in ending this call with a love fest for itm. And I would love for you all to not only talk about itm or give one reason why you enjoy itm, but why you chose to build along with real as one of the leaders of itm and that's how we're going to close out today. I want before we end I really want to make sure that we thank our ASL interpreters Valerie Avila and Benny Yamas. Also, of course I really want to thank those behind the camera behind the scenes that work with how round those who have been working in press media to ensure that the new American Theater Fest is spectacular as it will as it has been this year, and the years to come so thank you so much for joining us tonight. And as we in, let's finish with our love fest about one reason why you have chosen to build with itm. And real you can't go. Unless you'd like to jazz, let's go be street. One reason. They always want to do more and be stronger and more innovative than the day before, that they are always, you know, pushing themselves in the most positive ways. There is, there's, there's no, we're in the place we want to be they always want to do better, be more inclusive build stronger collaborations connections, and and do the best work possible and they're always thinking ahead and in the past present and in the future, and how to accomplish that. And so, of course, shout out to real and then Fran and Amber and Edgar, and the whole ensemble jazz Leo, so many people who we've gotten the chance to know in person and virtually. During this process, so I love the chance to love bomb virtual love fest. Yes, and where can people find out more about be street. Be street theater.org is our website and we still got some more events and the new American theater festival, another panel and streaming tomorrow and streaming Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and that is, that is our auspicious closing so we are very excited after 24 days of programming, which is super awesome. I know exactly to then a vacation. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much, Lindsay. We appreciate you having you here. Thank you, Whitney. Thank you so much. Thanks. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's jump on over to Leo. Tell us why one reason why you are happy to work with it. I am so over the moon to work with itm because they lead with yes, they like they love to tell you yes you can do that or no we can do that and let's figure out a way to do something else different better. And they do it all without hierarchical BS. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear at the hell around. I guess that that spirit of generosity and and leading with just complete yes and faith in their artists is why I'm so so so very happy to be a part of itm and so much thanks to the team over there everyone. Awesome. Where can people find out more about juvenilia the juvenilia collective you can find us at the juvenilia collective calm or on Instagram at the juvenilia collective this upcoming month we've got a drunk reading of new moon. And there's more info about that coming soon and we've also got some podcasts and all of that you can find on our website. Amazing. Thank you so much Leo we appreciate having you here. Yes, we're going to jump on over to you one reason why you love working with itm and why you chose to build with him. Oh my goodness in the margin. Wonderful collective I chose to work with him because I have never felt so aligned in mission and also just so held in space by a beautiful group of people that is literally ever expanding they always have more room in the group hug it's space for one more and it truly is people who are collaborating together because they love to do it and so yes leading with yes is absolutely the culture and I'm just so grateful to know and collaborate with these folks they're all so wonderful. Absolutely I feel the same way and I appreciate you for verbalizing. Tell us where we can find out more information about the womb collected. Yes, womb the creation space you can follow us on Instagram at womb dot the creation space, and we'll have more coming to you soon. Beautiful. Thank you CJ we're going to we're coming over to the end. One reason why you're building with itm. Well itm is the first organization that we have started collaborating with outside of warm and I think one of the reasons is the fact that they are willing to work with us you know, being so far away it gets a little isolating and you know the rest of the group where have been so willing to work with our time zones and reaching out and checking in on us through the pandemic and be like, let's still do this and so we're just so grateful for just their willingness to welcome us in to the open theater space really I think for the longest time we've always felt so far removed and to be like no we're part of this and we're so grateful for for real and everyone for welcoming welcoming us in. Thank you, thank you and where can people find out about the breaking way breaking the way. So we're on social media at bwtc Guam and then our website is bwtc Guam calm, and we definitely plan through the future to still continue to do some virtual work so even if you can't fly to Guam you can definitely, you know still catch some of our projects online. Beautiful thank you, real as we close officially, I have one question for you, I have one sentence that I know this might be very difficult for you, but the question is with itm. What does it mean to build through itm. What does it mean to build. As we elevate what theater is and as we elevate what advocacy is one sentence, let's see if you can do this. This. Thank you. This is what it means to build. We appreciate you, real. We love you we love on you we will do everything to ensure that your work is seen that members of the itm collective our scene. And that we will continue to build that we will continue to build coalitions. Again, thank you everyone that is here. My name is Whitney read and I am so grateful to be able to have facilitated this conversation tonight thank you again how around for your sponsorship and the opportunity to be seen within the US and abroad. Thank you all so much and we hope hold on. I do want to make sure that real also has the opportunity to say anything about the closing, as we get ready to close the national the new American theater fest. Before that, I want to ask Whitney, where can we find more on the urban window. And why did you partner with us. I love you. Um, wow. So the urban window you can come to Instagram or you can actually just email me that's usually how people honestly find me straight up. It's Whitney at the urban window.com. It's out to me ask me a question if you're concerned about, like, am I saying this correctly, how do I get a little bit of press about this work that I'm doing or what are ways that I can actually cultivate new audiences for the authentic work that I'm doing email me Whitney at the urban window. Why do I build with itm because itm is me itm is me itm is an opportunity for someone who is at many different intersections and when I am with some of my fellow itm members, I feel like I'm home. I feel like I'm normal and I, it is the best feeling that I have when it comes to being an artist and a creative feeling like you're with your with your folks so that's why I build with that team. Thank you. Thank you. Anything else that you want to say about the new American theater fest before we close. Yes, well, first off, I just want to say, thank you so much to everyone I'm trying really hard not to have the waterworks happen right now. I, y'all are folks that I see as very powerful people very powerful leaders that are incredibly just beyond talented and I hope you recognize that of yourselves. And I am just forever grateful that y'all saw our mission and vision and said yes we'll work with you. And I think it, not I think that's just, it's just beautiful. So thank you, thank you so much. I have deep admiration for everyone here on this call. I just want to say about the new American theater festival. As Lindsay had mentioned, we have programming throughout this last week. There are some things that are going to be in person in Sacramento so if anyone finds themselves around Sacramento, where they're at the Sophia where B Street is so please come join us, make sure you have your proof of vaccination and your ID. And other than that you can still stream our things. Everything is still online on B Street theaters Facebook page. So if you want to stream anything that we have any of the 10 new works any of our panels. Head on over there. And also our panels are on how around is a series on how around so make sure to head over there to watch the rest of the panels. Follow us on Instagram in the margin underscore itm follow us on tick tock at in the margin. And thank you all so much. Thank you. Have a beautiful night everyone. Thank you so much for joining us.