 So, and welcome to this British Library event notes on the great work of meeting yourself with Yes Daily Ward. My name is Maxime and I'm a live screening producer at the British Library. In this event we'll be delving into Yes's latest book The How, a beautiful mix of poetry and heartfelt advice. And we are thrilled tonight to be joined by Nikita Gill who's quite possibly one of Yes's biggest admirers. Nikita is a British Indian poet and has written and curated many volumes of poetry including Your Soul is a River, Wild Embers poems of rebellion, fire and beauty, fierce fairy tales and other stories to stir your soul, great goddesses, life lessons from myths and monsters, your heart is the sea and the girl and the goddess. She has been described as one of the most successful insta-poets, sharing her work on social media to over 600,000 followers. Her collection Slam was shortlisted for the Clipper 2021. A few notes on housekeeping before we begin. During the event you may post your questions in the form just below the video. On the web page you can also find links to Bayer's book and give feedback or make a donation to the British Library. This event has speech to text captioning. To activate the captions just press the button within the player video. A huge thank you to you all for joining us tonight and an even bigger thanks to everyone from the Living Knowledge Network, our partnership of national and public libraries. I really hope you enjoy the event. Over to you Nikita. Thank you very much, Maxine. I am absolutely delighted today to be talking to Yesa Daly Wood, who is an English writer, model and actor. She is known for her debut poetry collection Bone, as well as her spoken word poetry, which has always blown my mind. Her memoir The Terrible was published in 2018 and in 2019 it won the Penn Ackerley Prize. She also co-wrote Black is King, Beyoncé's musical film and visual album, because she's awesome. She's also given TED Talks and has changed the world for the better with a COP26 World Leaders Summit. So to briefly introduce The How, which has been so spiritually changing for me. The How notes on the great work of meeting yourself as a splendid collection of essays, verse and wisdom that helps us as readers to connect with our real selves, not the cells that we have grafted in response to our surroundings, or the ones we have greeted to appease others, but instead our most intimate self, the one we visit in dreams, the one that calls to us from a glimmering future. Yesa, thank you so much for being here. And can I just say what a privilege it is to do this with you? Hello, I'm so, so, so happy that it's you that I'm speaking to today. So thank you, thank you, thank you for doing this. This is amazing. Yeah, I'm so delighted truly. And can I just like go right into this, because I just I just this actually really did just blow my mind. You read out the you performed the most beautiful poem at COP26 at the World Leaders Summit. And you opened for David Attenborough. And I would love to know more about that. I've watched that video so many times. So I would love to know more about that poem, the process and how you ended up doing that. Well, they approach me. Thank you. Good question. They approach me and asked me to they wanted the poem commissioned. And it was very, very, very close to the event, actually, which is actually the way I like to work funnily enough. I don't like to have days and days and days. I just like to have this short amount of time to really turn something over in my head. And what is more what's a what's a more pressing thing and a more important thing to discuss in the future of the climate of this this this this place that we we have the privilege to to belong to. And so it wasn't I didn't have to reach very far for that that poem, you know, and I didn't have to reach very far for the lines. It's it's I'm strange, but you'll know this when something means something to you. It's like it's like the lines are already there. And you just have to pick them out of yourself. So so that talking about, you know, the hour is now. And this is the time that we have to decide what we're going to do in addressing it to world leaders, the people in whose in hands this this this falls, the people who can do the most, it seems really pertinent. So it was a pleasure to do. And yeah, I was honored to be asked to do that. No, you you you blew everyone away. I think there were so many of my friends who came up to me and said, Have you seen this beautiful spoken word poem? And I'm like, Hi, biggest fan. Of course, I've seen it. I don't miss I don't miss a thing she she does, like I'm just saying. So I just want to get into in because I think the how ties in very nicely because you talk so much about nature in the how and it ties so well into your into the cop 26 poem that you did. But you know, from the formation of your poetry collection bone, the beautifully written memoir, this the terrible to the how you've always created this really stunning genre defying work. And I was wondering if you could like talk a little bit about your path, you know, as a writer, because there's been a lot of evolution in your work. So I'd love love to hear more about that. Yeah, I think I don't like, first of all, I'm easily bored. And secondly, I don't like to stick to one thing, you know, so much that we I mean, everything that is human is an amalgamation of things, isn't it? You know, so, you know, when we're when we're writing this, the stuff that that leans towards the horror and then the leads leads towards the love and leans towards the poetic. And then, you know, you might throw something in there that feels more like prose. And it's always a it's nothing that I set out to do. But it appeals to me deeply. I love poetry and prose. And even when I'm writing longer pieces like fiction, there's a poetic energy that's never going to leave me. And also, the other reason why it's so genreless, I think, is because I don't really know what I'm doing when I start writing a book. So I just, you know, it comes out and then I might think, Oh, I like this part written like in the terrible, a lot of it is written in this sort of prose section, and then it will be like in the third person, then it's in the second person, you know, and I don't want to commit to one. So if you can tell it five ways, then I don't see why not. I mean, also, if if it just felt right to just continue, then that's what I would do. But there are so many different moods and, you know, little twists that sort of that find their way to me when I'm writing. So I just go with it. I just go with it and let it let it let it flow. And that's why I think it's genre less, because it, you know, it becomes its own thing. It's like water. And I think that's what makes you such a powerful writer, though, for for me, like as soon as I start reading your work, I'm just it's just I get drawn in and I just get locked inside your thoughts. And it's very hard then to put the book away. So I have to finish it. I was very I was very lucky that I got like, you know, four or five hours with the how because I couldn't put it down. I just couldn't put it down because I was like, my God, it's like she's speaking directly to me. And I think you hear that a lot from people on your social media and stuff. I think people say that a lot to you. It's like, it's like you wrote this for me. You wrote this specifically for me. But I think that's exactly the same with your work as well. You sort of take this, this moment in in time and because, because of your honesty and because you are it's raw. And what I feel like when you're honest, of course, people, people see it and it speaks to them because we're all the same things relatively. So I get that as well from your work, this sense of oh my God. And it's always a sense of I needed to read this at this time in my life. Because these are you very, I mean, spoken very elegantly and written very elegantly. But these are very universal themes that that you deal with and I deal with. So it's like, Oh, I love it. I love it. I love how much of a bridge of connection that using words just gives you, especially if you're like an introvert or something, which I am. So this is my space to like really, like go out into the world and tell the truth in ways that I might not have without sort of being being able to write. And I think you do that like with the how first of all, like, I was about to burst into tears when you said such lovely things about my work. So thank you. I didn't even know that you knew who I was. Basically, I was just like the some some fan girl, you know, like just there. So that means a lot to me. So thank you. But then I it's one of the things that I have noticed in the how you you have such and it does come from being introverted. So I'm an introverted. No, I'm an extroverted introvert is what I've been told. So I can do both where I can, you know, have that social battery a little bit. And then like, I have to close off. And then I'm just observing everyone from the outside. And I think you do that so well in the how because you do this thing where you you're in you're in the moment, and you can see how someone is being is perceiving their surroundings and reacting to them. So much of the book is about that is like, how much of ourselves we built out of reacting to our surroundings. And then you come out, and you pull that lens back and you go, and here's how we stop doing that. Oh, I haven't heard anyone say that before, but that's that's such a beautiful way of describing it that it's, yeah, it is that it is the lens change and what happens then and and how we relate to ourselves outside of ourselves via everybody else. Like there's so many different camera angles if you if you want, you know, and it's it's really interesting what we have just, you know, in terms of propriety and what we're supposed to do and say and think and and those concerns or deep concerns about how how we will be perceived. I mean, they get in the way of everything. And it was really just sitting there during a pandemic with nowhere to go in my apartment. When all of this stuff, a lot of this stuff just just came out. It was like, well, okay, what do I do if I don't have anyone to impress or, you know, what do I look at my Instagram? Like, what am I going to do? You know, so it's it's yeah, it's it came to me because of those, those sort of meditations. And they come across so beautifully in the book. In fact, can I bother you to do us to do a reading so everyone gets a believer? Yes, yes, yes. And was it the one? Oh, wait, was it the one that is talking about you were more than? Yes. I think it's like page 31. Okay. Yes, yes. All the block capitals. Okay. You are more than your body, your fears, your productivity, your years on the planet, the figures in your bank, what they call achievements, the things you have finished, the things you have not finished, what you can see, what you were talking about, what you were saying about yourself, what is said about you, where you are, your plans, how much you eat or did not eat, how much you drink or do not drink, the place where you learned who you slept with or did not sleep with, what they call your looks, your hunger, your sex drive, the books you have read, where you have been or have not been your physical strength, where you are right now, what they call success, what you spend or do not spend who and what you love. This is something really special about reading, listening to your voice, read out your work. I actually have the audiobook of the house well, because I do this thing where I go into full immersion mode where I need to have the audiobook in the book in front of me to really sense. I do that too. I love that. I love that. You create a tunnel of like the authors like voice and the left the left scene, the left. I love that as well. It's really special, isn't it? Like when you really get that consumed with a piece of work and especially when it's such a nourishing piece of work like the how. And I think like that I was just going to say like it particularly struck me like how in the how that you were you wrote about gratitude, thinking and journaling. And what I liked was that you spoke really authentically about it because you were like, you know, at first even I was like, what the hell is this kind of thing? You know, like the idea of gratitude. Because I think a lot of people talk about it, but in that very kind of preachy way. But you you went into it going, I I was like very skeptical on this. And then you talked about why. And I thought that that was such a great way of getting someone into the idea of gratitude. You know, so can I can I ask more about how the practice changed your life? It's oh my God, these practices, I have to live my life by them now. And the reason why I talked about them in that way as well is because even with the skepticism, it doesn't go away. There are days when I'm like, oh, you know, gratitude. Like, how can I be full of gratitude when this is like, not, you know, I'm not going to swear, but you know what I mean? Yeah. And and you have to constantly I talk about it in the book, you forget and remember and forget and remember and forget and remember that things work. And I think the cycle is important. I mean, it's not about getting straight A's and A's stars and every day going, I'm so grateful for this and this and this when the, you know, your life is like in flames around you. No, sometimes it's tough. But what I find that these things help is that when you start to stack habits and you start to stack these things that you know work, then on the days when you feel shakier, you don't have to lean into motivation like this because their habits are there. So you just you just take them off even when you feel like crap, you know, you just do them. And and and certainly sometimes you don't get to do it every day and that's fine. But I do notice the positive correlation when I pay attention to things like gratitude, they have to be real things, you know, tangible that I can see, you know, it has to be something I find beautiful. It can't be I can't just be running it off. But it's really important because when I am feeling depressed or, you know, the anxiety starts to have an edge to it. There are definitely things I can hook into that make that are the wire me in a way and help me to just if only for five minutes just connect with something else to shift my vibration a bit because it's just so small incremental vibrational shifts that matter, not trying to like turn the terrible mood into a great mood. I mean, no, it's little steps. So yeah, I lean hard into my practices, especially now is winter. So yeah, I double down on that. I think like what you just said about anxiety and like having these practices because that's what they say for anxiety, isn't it like you put in patterns or instruments almost like you create a bunch of instruments which for for for me reading the how the practices that you talk about in a way that how is almost like a workbook. Like it's a workbook of of meditations and how to meditate and how to put these things into place because I was reading it and I was like, OK, I'm going to do this today. And like it's something that you've spoken about so concretely. But at the same time, because I was reading Saphos fragments, like those those capital letters bits really feel like fragments like Saphos fragments. There's something very ancient about them as well as modern and I love that it reminded me of something Roman when I was writing it for a start when I was writing it, I was I was fragmented because I was sitting there in the middle of the pandemic speaking, oh my God, what what? And then it was that time when they were saying, oh, maybe in a month, you know, everything all we had and we didn't realize like the breadth of time, but this was going to occupy. And yeah, it was just that the false sort of like promises from the government and everything like that. And yeah, I was just everything was very fragmented. So it came out exactly. I mean, this is this is my brain at the time. And it's a beautiful brain because, well, because, yeah, I've recently gone through a period. Well, I'm starting a period of brief, actually, because I lost someone this morning. And this book, because I've reread it, I've reread it after. And it said something completely different to me on that reread after this experience of losing someone quite suddenly to a painful like it's it's such a painful experience. And reading a book prior to that from in a stable state of mind and then reading the how when you are going through that grief and there's that slight instability inside you, there's something so soothing, especially listening to your voice. And I feel like that's one of the things that your work has done for me repeatedly, with bone, as well as with the terrible and with the how is that it's given me a safe space for my grief, because grief makes you feel so unmoved. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you talk about grief in a way which is like, you know, people tend to shy away from grief or walk away from it or like, they mention it, but they don't go into the depths of it. Like you go into the depths of it. You're like, here, here's the discomfort. Sit with it. Here's the pain. Sit with it. You've done it like repeatedly over the course of your work, but with the how you show us how to sit with it, which is why I think it's the title of the book is amazing, because you keep coming back to that. And I'd like to talk to you about that if you're comfortable about your relationship with grief, because you talk about it's so beautifully, you know. Yeah. I mean, first of all, sorry for your loss. It's, it's, it's such, it's, it is such a time of surprises and, and it's such a levelling time. I, levelling, so level, like knocking you out and also levelling, you know, there's also a deep sense of, like it's a, it's a, it's a very, very dull calm that comes with it, as well as all the, all the stress that it brings up as well. It's like, it's so, it's so many-sided. And that's, that's why, I mean, I guess you were right. All three of the books deal with grief. I mean, life is a long grief. It is, it's beautiful, but it's also, it's that, it's an exhale, it's, it's a lot of, it's, it's a lot of stuff rolled into one. And in a way, and we're grieving tiny, tiny ways, I think, most days, but some, we're so used to, and so, so, we've just become, like, so desentitized to some things that are so deeply wounding that we just roll with the punching and then there's grief, there's grief that, that happens and just knocks you off your feet and you're like, what is this? I do like to talk about it because one of the things I know is when, like, especially with like the loss of parents is that people, you don't, you don't get prepared for these things and you don't learn about it in school, which is wild to me, that we learn other things and, and when I say learn about it, yes, like the pain and yes, the, the inevitability, we kind of sweep it and I don't know if that's because we're both sort of brought up in England. And it's maybe another, like, cultural cultures or cultures, it's different, but we don't get those tools. But I'm also talking about as simple as knowing what to do when it happens, knowing what to do practically and what, what it's like to be left with that and left with the responsibility, especially at certain ages and, and nothing prepares you. So I do like to talk about it because I, I naturally mean to what's talking about the things that we don't talk about so much, but I think it should be on curriculums. I really do because it affects everybody. A hundred percent agree. Especially in the, the two years that we've had, our relationship globally with grief has changed so deeply because everyone knows everyone who is affected or passed away or they couldn't say goodbye to or, and collectively what does that do to us as a global community? Right? Like what does that do if we don't know how to process our grief if they're not taught how to do that? Because I find that online we're going to go into like my favorite subject social media. But, but online I find there's a lot of hurt people. A lot of, a lot of hurt people are carrying a lot and they haven't been taught to process it and then they'll come to say your page or my page and they'll see us talking about something like mourning or grief or pain and they'll just, they feel either they feel like they lash out at us for talking about these things or they, they trauma dump and they tell you this the entire like you know the square and the risk triggering not only you but other people who read that and it all comes down to what you just said it's like we haven't been taught how to process grief in a healthy way. So we do these very unhealthy things. Yeah, there's a, there's a lot there, isn't there? Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. And I think that's, that's so right that if we're not taught how what to do with this emotion and it can come out. I mean, it can be a lot of transference. It can come out like an anger at the person who's expressed a bit like, oh, you know, this that and the other because you're, you're there with all of this stuff that you don't know what to do, what to do with. And then, as you said, the other thing where there's like, I don't want to say overshare because I think sharing is, yeah, will share because they, they need to, they have it on their chest. But if there were ways, if there were ways that more ways more places for people to go, then it wouldn't build up in that way. So I do also understand when, when people like in my DMs, sometimes I'm like, oh my God, this person just told me all of this, but I understand it because I'm like, well, maybe that's the only, I'm the only person that told and there isn't space where they live or maybe it's just not the done thing to talk about it. It's, it's, it's wild. I think we need new ways of expressing ourselves, especially when it comes to these very common universal things like death, is universal as having a baby, is universal as getting married or grief, death, love, pain, like falling in love and then breaking up with some, all of these things are very universal, but also, it's really interesting to me what you just said right now because I think that's a really good way to look at it. When someone DMs you and they give you like this whole kind of like story of this very traumatic thing, which is trauma dumping, but like, like you, I feel a responsibility to that person because I'm like, who else it all comes down to the fact that therapy isn't accessible. You know how on, on, on Twitter, people do this thing where they go, just get therapy. Just get therapy as if it's that easy. Yeah, yeah. As if it's easy. I mean, in, and there's the, there's so many aspects of, I mean, there's, there's financial, but there's so many other like, like obstructions to somebody getting therapy that people won't think about. There's access. There's, whether that person is allowed to go and do it. There's, there's, there's all of those things. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. And it's, and also interesting, we talk about it in the how as well, how we expect everybody to, to sort of get the same knowledge at the same time of different things and different world issues and, and different groups of people. No, that, that, it can't be the case. It just can't be the case. So it's, yeah, I find it, the, the thing, I'm sure we're going to get into social media, but that's why if I'm really interested in about social media, this sort of shaming of, of people who, who, who believe a different thing. And I'm not talking about the, the hugisms, but I'm talking about, like, like smaller things that happen, but it's just so unfair. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, someone makes a mistake, a genuine, honest mistake, and suddenly there's a massive pylon on them and they'll apologize, and that apology isn't good enough. And then they'll apologize again, and that apology, like people just won't let it go. And it's just like, you know, people act as if there's this moral purity in them, which is almost God-like, you know? And, and that, yeah. Yeah, it's, oh, sorry. Sorry. Yeah, no, no, you were going to say, I think it's again, people not having a place to put their pain. So this all gets transferred on this, on this situation. Yeah. It, it's really interesting because I find the how really compassionate about that. You know, where you talk about, you say this in the book, where you're like, you know, the global community is moving forward. And if you don't fit in with exactly the exact knowledge that they have at the time, you're canceled, you're out, you're, you know, forgotten, you're not a part of that community anymore. You can't do that to people, people always looking for a place to belong, right? And that's what you say in the book. Yeah. And everyone doesn't learn at the same time or at the same pace. So it's not something to expect. Definitely it's, we should educate ourselves and that's a responsibility. That's a personal responsibility. And we shouldn't look to harm others. But we, there's also, we need compassion. We need compassion, I think. A lot of compassion. I think that's part of the problem that we're facing today is that the, there's this idea, when you touch upon it in the house, well, there's this, that these very archaic ideas about strength, you know, coldness is strength. And like, you know, not reacting when someone is, someone is hurting you and you don't react that strength. And like, it's very archaic ideas. Some of them are based in religion, I think, but like, and culture and different, like cultural groups of what's expected of them and what it means for them to be strong. Yeah. It's really, it's really like, this is, I think why your work is so empowering to a lot of people because there is that compassion there, you know, that compassion that I feel is slowly going missing. And social media is a culprit in that, but we're going to get into that. You know, you and I both have like these big Instagram followings and big social media followings. And I don't, I feel quite like, I love the way you use your social media because there was this whole, you do this thing where you show people when you're writing. And I love that. I love that because it's, it's giving people a view into your process, which I think is such an intimate thing and you're welcoming people into that. And I thought that was something so special. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about that, you know, the idea of like welcoming people, showing them as you write. You know what, what I think the kids, I think I was saying to this to you before that, once the work, even the process of it, once it meets the air, it becomes, it's for the reader. So yes, I've written it, like I've shaped it. I didn't invent language. I'm just shaping it, like for shaping it. And then I put it out there. And so I don't over identify with what comes out there, which is why I can show my work. Like I can, you know, write my newsletter with, with typos in it. Or I can show, oh, I changed that phrase because it wasn't strong enough. I really don't have that thing that's like, oh my God, it has to be perfect. I, I don't, I just don't subscribe to it because, hey, it just wastes time. I have this sense of urgency built in my being and it comes from like, parents dying early. It comes from hustling. It comes from desperate situations. It comes from growing up. It comes from poverty. It comes from everything. I want to do things. I want to do things now. And not to say that I don't want a great good piece of work to be out there. I care about the work and there is some conscientiousness in, in that, but it's not overly done. I always think, put the poem out because there'll be, if I want to say something slightly different, there's another poem for that. So I put it out. I put it out because I'm not promised tomorrow. You know, I'm not. So, and I, and then, you know, it's it might be a bit of anxiety, but I have that thing in me that's like at now, and I have it for a lot of areas in my life. Like, you know, I like it. I like fire burning. So I'm like, right, what am I doing tomorrow? Yeah, I find that, I find that's just the way I am and the way I work. So I think showing the workings of that, I just found it just, it doesn't feel like a big departure from, from how I feel about, about anything really. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think, but I found that special specifically because you, I found it unusual, but also like, it's such a breath of fresh air because I talked to, I talked to writers who tell me things like, ah, you know, it's kind of like a, it's an underhanded compliment when they say this to me. But they're like, oh, yeah, you, you wrote a poem and you just put it out there. Yeah. I think that's really brave. And I'm just like, I'm like, it's, it's I, I felt something, which was very like, you know, sometimes it's about a school shooting and something, I've felt something really powerful at that time. And I know people use my, as they use your comment sections to, to talk about these things. And that's a safe space for that. And when I put that work out there, it's feeding a very different, like I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to be literary. I'm trying to, to make space for something. And I think you do that, you make space for something with your work. And these are just raindrops. You know, we, there's, there's, there's a, there's a steady, a steady stream of water. You know, we're not in lack. So I'm happy to let that, let that come out. And yeah, I also am not trying to be literary. I love books. I eat, sleep, breathe, reading. I love it. I'm a better reader than writer, I think. But yeah, there's always time and space for the next thing. I don't, I don't hold myself up to any, like, literary ideals. You know, I just want to do the work and be honest. And that's it. And I don't really want to let anything get in the way of that. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And it's so clear. Like your books are such a different medium than your social media. Then you treat everything that you do, the mediums that you work in the platforms, you work in a completely different from each other. You're a different artist in those spaces. You're still you, but you're a different artist in those spaces. And I think that's something really to be admired and to be understood. But unfortunately, I think about this when it comes to the establishment. They are determined to define, like, to put artists in a box and define them by their platforms. And I think you, you have that same thing as I have where they call you an Instapoint. And it's like, what does that mean? Because you publish books, I publish books you've written for, like, you've written for such amazing, you know, establishment-based literary journals and things like that. And they still call you an Instapoint. It's almost like they're credit, they're crediting your success to a platform, which isn't true because... Right, right. And actually the book came before, the first book came before. But I think... Thank you. I also think there's, I don't think that's always innocent. You know, I think there's a reason somebody would want to, or some organizations or maybe types of people would want to minimize you in that way. And it has to be about them. It can't be about me. And I made that decision really early on to kind of... I've moved inside of that because at first I was like, I don't care, probably what they want is just a word. And then I started to think about it more like two years into it, two, you know, three books in. And I was like, huh, very interesting that that happens. I think it would be different, you know, perhaps if I wasn't... If I didn't present the way I present, you know, if I wasn't a woman, if I wasn't a block... You don't know, you don't know, but it's very interesting. And then there's also the very obvious thing that Instagram is the brilliant platform that has carried my work to a lot of places and yours too. And we have that deep gratitude for that. But also the work can't be minimized, you know, it exists in paper, on papers, in bookstops. And I also don't know why that is a thing to be minimized, even if we didn't have the books as well because we're using the tools of today, just like any old English writer would have been doing if they had been born now. So it's just deeply interesting to me what comes along with this. I do think it's really funny that you mentioned this because I was having a discussion the other day with a bunch of my friends because the word Instagram really does get under my skin. And when people use it in a specific way, they know what they're doing. And they know what they're doing. But I was saying people are pretending Byron and Emily Dickinson and they wouldn't be on social media on Twitter and their work fits in. Like you're telling me all of these writers, especially Byron, wouldn't take full advantage of putting his work on social media and sliding into the DMs of young women. You're trying to tell me that. E.E. Cummings would definitely be on Twitter or like... All over Instagram. Yeah, all have really cool Instagram squares. Absolutely. With that capital text. Oh my God. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. But you're right. It's of the time. It's of the time. And people will always want to minimize. I think it's a shame because what happened with poetry is it started to... When it's taught in schools, it's just like... I mean, thankfully, I think I'm not at school age, obviously. Hopefully they're doing something new now. I really hope so. I see that they are studying poets that are modern, contemporary, do cool and interesting things. But when I was at school, it was very, very, very dry and difficult to access. And so I think there's still the idea of poetry for people. So then when we come along, it's like, well, what's this? So that's where I think some of the difficulty arises. And this idea that relatability and access is a bad thing. I was in Hamburg a few months ago and I was at the literature house and they were wonderful to me. But one of the questions I got asked was, don't you think like what you're doing is essentially dumping down... You're dumping down your... Yeah, that's what I got told that. I got told that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said, I don't understand that who came up with this idea that to be intellectual, you have to use as many difficult words as possible so that no one understands what you have to say. Like surely access, language belongs to all of us and access therefore is probably the best way to show how intellectual and intelligent you are. I think so. And there's a way, I mean, few writers when they're dealing with the complicated language or this like lexicon that's really sort of flowery, when that's done brilliantly, it's incredible. And when it's clunky, it's... How can you even see into it? And I think the idea of exclusivity, the like that sort of like snobbery is dangerous because it tells some people you can and most people you can't. And I hate anything like that. 100%, 100%. I just want to ask to remind our audience to please send some questions into us because I'm very happy to monopolize all of your sustain because I think she's brilliant. But you should probably ask us some questions yourself as well. I have like 10 questions that I still have to get through with her. So please, please send in your questions so I can ask her. Thank you so much for being so gracious with all your answers as well. I think I'm learning... This is so nourishing. I'm learning so much from you. And for me, I love this conversation. So can I ask you something? We've touched on it very briefly where we spoke about the gratitude we have to a platform like Instagram but at the same time, there's that ambivalence. In regards to your work, you give your work out to the world basically. There are two schools of thought about this, right? Once you've given the work out, it's gone. It doesn't belong to you anymore. But on the other hand, it's still our work. Yeah. So what is your relationship to that? Honestly, it's like my relationship to a lot of things. I do... There's a transience to object, to life, to experiences. So I just love and respect the work that I've done. And I'm happy I've done it. And I look at the... As I said, I was saying, I look at the books in the shelves sometimes I think. Or if I'm in a bookshop and I see my... And I'm like, oh, oh my God. And there's a slight dissonance but I think it keeps me healthy. Like I think it... But I think it... Yeah, I think I dissociate a little. But I don't think that that's a bad thing. I just... I have the utmost respect for what I was when I... When I especially like bone. And some years ago now, different person. We're also the same soul. And yeah, I... I have a lot of love for them. But it doesn't define me. Because I'm like always changing shape. And that's complete. That's how I feel about it. I love that people... When people are moved by the work. And not everyone's going to be moved by the work. And that's okay. These are offerings. And yeah. I mean, I don't know how you feel about that. But it's... Yeah, I kind of... I leave them here. But I still love them as like something that... Like I've birthed into the world. They're your children. That's how I feel. I feel like my work is... It's my child. And then that's... You have to let them go off and do their own things, right? Yeah. Like very much how I feel as well. You're absolutely right. But one of the things... This is just like a personal thing for me. Reviews. When you get reviews, right? And I don't tend to get a lot of reviews in like broadsheets or anything like that. Because people really don't take my work seriously. But you won the Penn Ackerley Prize. Which is a very, very wonderful, very literary prize. And you won it for The Terrible. Which is a... It's an extraordinary book. It's an extraordinary beautiful book. Which has meant a lot to me. How do you feel when people review your work? Because it's kind of connected to my own question. Because like, you know, you give the work out to the world. And then people kind of... Sometimes they can decontextualize it. And they will interpret it. Like... And that's really interesting when someone puts a new spin on it. And you think, oh, oh yes. I do do that. But honestly, I'll tell you this. I don't really engage with it. Because it's kind of not my job to engage with it. It's after the facts. The book is out there. Whether they, you know, can't bear the way I've done it. It's not going to help now. I'm not some sort of like monk who is just all, you know, benevolent. And it's just like, oh. If I saw it, like, pop up on my thing, I'd be like tempted to go, oh. But it's not, I don't look for it. And especially when a new book's out. Like, if I saw it, it was like five stars amazed and I'd be like, oh, I'll read it. You know. Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm protective of myself. Because I sit here alone writing the work. And especially like last year, I spent an obscene amount of time last year alone. You know, it was a pandemic and I had to look after myself. And I look after myself first. I do. That means sometimes, that means not engaging with that or saying no to things. I mean, not doing too much and not scraping the bottom of the barrel only to read a horrible review. I mean, like, you know, if you must come to it and laugh about it later, but you got, you pick good moments. But yeah, I don't engage in reading about myself. Like, I know myself. I know the book. And that's really empowering to hear. That's really empowering to hear because I think a lot of young writers especially, no one teaches us how to do this, do they? No. No one comes up to us and says, don't do this, do this, do this. This is how you get published and these are the right publishers to go to and this is how you publish that. No one teaches us any of that. No one, no one does. Especially when you come up the the sort of self-publishing route as well. When you just kind of do it, do it yourself. And then, yeah, it's it's heavy, isn't it? Yeah. It's heavy because you're learning on the job and like no one is telling you are you doing this right or wrong, which is very liberating in one way. Especially reading your work, I can see how it's very liberating because you are so sure of yourself when you and that comes across in your work, the how specifically for me, I feel was so soothing because you were so sure of what you were saying. And I say saying because I was listening to it in the audio book and reading it. It just made it just, there's a whole world being built around me with your language which is so so beautiful and so powerful and you're giving people a lot with your work. Thank you. Do you think about that? Do people ever come up to you like constantly? This must happen to you all the time. Just before we did this. Your work means so much to me. Oh my God. It's like you are writing for me specifically for me. It's like you craft your work specifically for me. And it's beautiful to just I feel lucky because it's beautiful to have the chance to take anything that's happened and we've all had a whole lot happen and to be able to alchemise it into something that can be useful. I mean for God's sake. There has to be a reason we've gone through some of these things, right? There's always a reason. It's not, as it says in there, like no experience is useless, not one. So it's, yeah, it shows me that the filtration system or whatever we're, whatever terrible euphemism and belief is working. You know, it's something that's changing and I'm able to put 100% Can I ask you like just because you mentioned reading a lot, like you love reading can I ask you some of your favourite writers or like who you're reading right now or I will tell you because I don't, it's hard to have favourite writers because I'm always coming across gorgeous like can you gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous new like terms of phrase and new things that I'm working with and I'll fall into like a writer and then I do this thing which actually I shouldn't do. I fall into like this right and then I start ordering all of their books but then I'm like after the second one I'm like I shouldn't have done that, like space it out, you know, don't try and do everything but it's back to that thing that I do. I'm like I have to have it all now. But I, the person that comes to mind, only because I'm reading their book right now again is, I always talking about Jeanette Winterson because of the way that Jeanette Winterson writes about love and I'm reading and written on the body again and I just love that book. It's a really powerful book. I like books that you know go into the dream world and go into the past and come back and go into the present and you know or the distant past. I like that for time travel because we're always time traveling in a way. You know, always you'll sit here and you'll think, you'll be thinking about yesterday and you'll think about tomorrow. I find that just really interesting. You do that really beautifully in the terrible Thank you, thank you. Coming back and forth in the dream world because you had me hooked from that first page where you talk about your brother and you seeing this seeing a unicorn, isn't it? I'm just sitting over there and I was reading it and I was like, is this a dream? Did they actually see this? It's so beautifully written that you don't know and I think that that slight sense of being a bit unmoored is so powerful for a reader because then you go into the rest of the book with that feeling of feeling slightly like your feet have been lifted up the floor. Yeah, yeah which is a real childlike thing to experience but also something actually you've kind of inspired me saying that I feel like I'm going to write after this conversation and I don't usually write like in the the day when the day is it's 3.19 here but I'm never usually writing at this side, I write in the morning but yeah, there is something about that heady kind of being children and then also when really frightening things are going on and happening and what it feels like to not quite have your feet on the ground and what that's like as a you know in girlhood or when you start to look like a woman and again your feet not quite being on the ground because of perceptions and people like you know being around so it's yeah I've that book, that book, I didn't expect to write that book but it came out just like the how, it wasn't planned at all Tell me more about that because that's really interesting to me I would never have written the terrible but I was when Bone was self-published and then I had an agent who's brilliant, it's still the same agent I have and the agent was like do you have anything else and maybe the hustler was like yeah I didn't have anything I didn't have anything but I know how to turn things around in a short time and so I started, I thought it would be a fiction book, I was going to write this fiction book about a girl and her brother and they see a unicorn but it's what happened so as I'm writing, I'm like oh I'm writing more and more of it's all me, it's not, I'm not, this isn't a fiction book and then I'm like oh am I going to have to write everything I didn't really think about that, I just did it, if I thought about it I wouldn't have written it and yeah and then before you know it I've got this memoir with things inside it that I would never have told anybody under any circumstances but then when you give it to the book you give it to the book. And then you change the world with it, that's what you did you put that book out there, this book that you didn't plan on writing and you just changed the world, you changed my life with it for sure, I mentioned the terrible specifically in The Girl and the Goddess for this reason and you because it really did change my the way that I thought about the world and it's because you do that slight thing which isn't quite magical realism but it sort of is where you kind of make the reader kind of go oh I've been pulled into something different there's a dream and you do that with the how as well in a slightly different way and I'm noticing this because obviously I'm a writer as well right so I'm like going into the how going, she's done it here as well but she's done it in a way of like that that thing which I spoke about where you are in the situation and you're talking about being in that consumerist culture and being in all of those things and then going but if you go a little bit further back and you look at it from here instead of looking at it from in here these are the things you might notice and there's something so different about the how for that reason because there's so many books out there that talk about graduate writing and things like that but no one shows you when you're inside it that anxiety that you're scared, you're scared there's a whole bit that you go no no no no no no no no no no in the book and that no one sees that in those because those self-help books tend to be very like this is what you're going to do yeah yeah but this book doesn't do that because it's not pretending to be anything other than what it is which is you know very literally and beautifully going let me show you a different way just come with me over here for a little while and I'll show you something a little bit different and that's really empowering and powerful to read as a reader I think and really beautiful thank you I think it's because you know we're all going for it we're all going through the same thing so when you're inside it of course you can see it and sort of split it apart a little yeah I love that I love the how I loved it specifically today because I really needed it today and I think a lot of people will say that about this book because it's very hard to write a book which can speak to everyone and I think that's not what you ever intend to do with your books you don't you don't intend to go there and it's like I'm going to be the voice of every single person out there but that's precisely what makes your work so brave because I think that the bravest books out there don't pretend to be anything other than what they are and I've I've tried writing the not brave book you know trying to appeal to everybody I'm not going to say which one it is but yeah I've written that book I was like I can't think of that I don't think I don't I can't guess that that book yeah yeah I have written that but like you you don't you you are so I would call you a literary talent like a major literary talent and a major literary talent that also knows how to you know do social media very very well and who knows how to like create in two different spaces beautifully or three different four different because you're so many things aren't you you're an actor and you're a writer and you do this stuff for social media also model so you know how to use your your body like a canvas and like this this art piece but how did that's one question how does that all lend itself to each other do you find a lot of crossover in all of those things well you know you're one person you're going to make it all work like you you know put very like bluntly I mean it's good to have like a few different streams of what you're doing you know you can't rely on one I mean we're not you don't rely on one one form if if that's not being you as I said like a hustler you know but like hustling people like but like a hustler like a gambler but you know somebody who you know I like to to figure out okay this I need to do this and this is how I can support myself doing this because I've been supporting myself for a long time you know since I was a teen so it's like you know I if what I what I can what I can do I do do on what I can use I use and the it's all one you know body is canvas like body as as as vessel for like new thoughts as as as actor as as as as you know thing that that moves as as as thing as as as I guess as instrument to to spread the messages as something resonant it's it's all one so people might say oh yeah how you know modelling and how does my house modelling link to poetry but it does because it's in the one person so that that person's a model and they and they're the site in a poem it's all one thing hmm you know and these things are not they're not these separate entities it's you the full person with everything that you've got so yeah nice you know some days it's it's one thing some days it's another and also stops me from going like I don't want to do the same thing every day I just don't 100% you know you know I mean I illustrate my own books for this reason I love I love drawing and painting but they all they both feed each other that's what I wanted to know from you and that does sound like all feeds each other which we're almost out of time but I really wanted to know what you're working on next like purely on a like a I'd like to know I'm writing I'm playing with something and I'm writing another book and it's fiction and well kind of you know you know me so it's like it's like in and out but it's taking me on quite a wild ride so I'm really really enjoying it I mean they're very early stages but I'm like tapped into it and that's what I'm doing that's what I'm doing with my mornings at the moment that's so exciting I can't wait to read fiction from you because you've done you've done the poetry you've done the memoir you've done this beautiful book in the how and you know notes on meeting yourself and now you're writing fiction ah you're gonna blow my mind I can't wait I really can't wait that's what I thought I would only be when I was a kid being a writer I only thought of fiction I didn't imagine these other things to come but they came first you know there was a lot there was a lot to like that had to come out first I think yeah I think you you you smashed so many like genres though like you you've gone like I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do it really well I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do it in fiction as well yeah I need to be out there screaming I want thriller I want I want you know what I mean this is a conversation horror so I write horror but under pseudonym like elsewhere on the internet so we could have a conversation about horror I would love I did not know this and I'm very intrigued and I'm gonna find out everything will we get off this because that's incredible I did not know that I mean this is really exciting because I feel like we can have like a big conversation women in horror is like a whole thing for me like I've been I'm so excited because I think we write such unusual stories you know not the norm so I'm really excited to hear that you want to write horror because I'm like yes everything everything everything that you know brings about a feeling you know some of life is horror you know it's reality you know there's a lot of horrific things going on so yeah 100% I can't believe this conversation it went so fast it went so fast I want to say thank you so much for joining me today and for having this really nourishing very rich conversation about craft and writing and God we touched on so much didn't we like beyond social media being writers just you know the different notions about what being a writer is and I want to thank the British Library for facilitating this conversation and I'm so so delighted so thank you thank you thank you amazing