 of the year 2023, the Church of Scientology has definitely become a pop culture phenomenon. It seems like daily the Church of Scientology is getting itself into more and more trouble because of its abusive tactics and its practice of high control. The Church of Scientology was founded in 1954 by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard. If you study the Church's theology, you can definitely see where Hubbard stole a lot of very ancient beliefs and manipulated them. Scientology has gained a name for itself in our pop culture by really three things. Its disconnection policy, its policy on fair gaming, and of course, Xenu. Today, Esoteric Atlanta is so excited to have Claire Headley on the show. Claire Headley was born into Scientology in the United Kingdom and worked at Scientology headquarters from 1991 to 2005. She was a high executive in the Church's ranks and with her husband, Mark Headley, they went through a very, very harrowing escape which is retold in Mark's book, Blown for Good. Today, Claire Headley along with her husband and other ex-Church members work tirelessly to not only challenge the Church but to also help those who are victims of the Church and those who want to escape the Church. Claire Headley was instrumental in being an expert witness in the latest Danny Masterson trial and she was also featured in Leah Remini's series, Scientology and the Aftermath. Claire Headley along with a lot of her ex-Church members not only vocally try to help people on their YouTube channels and other public platforms but they run a non-profit to this day called the Aftermath Foundation and so without further ado, it is my excitement and pleasure to welcome Claire Headley to Esoteric Atlanta. Hello everybody, welcome back to Esoteric Atlanta. Of course, my name is Bryce and I am here with the beautiful and the badass Claire Headley who is one of the rock stars of SPTV. Welcome Claire to the show, I'm so excited you're here. Thank you so much for having me on, I greatly appreciate it and I appreciate your very kind words. Oh no, it is I, the people that watch my channel know that when I'm not researching or filming, I'm watching one of y'all's channels because I'm going to start with this question to Claire because I've been thinking about this, did you ever think that there would be a day where Scientology would become such a part of our pop culture? Never in a million years did I think and it's funny you should say that because even when we were in, we had media blackout years. We didn't watch TV, we didn't listen to anything. So if you, and of course I'm talking about the years that I worked at their headquarters, it was a very isolated 500 acre compound in Gilman Hot Springs, California, which is in the middle of the desert, in the middle of nowhere. But either way, we were completely oblivious like people there didn't even know who the president was, I'm not joking. So we thought that Tom Cruz was the hero of Earth and he was bringing Scientology to the mainstream and just knocking down walls and Scientology was going to become, the entire planet was going to be doing Scientology. You know, I mean, yeah. But there's so many religions that in the beginning kind of followed the path that even a Christian church was very destructive in the beginning and very violent and very, so, so you know, it's not, it's, you know, I think if the aliens are speaking of aliens, speaking of Scientology, if the aliens are watching us now, they're probably like, what's happening on season 20 or 21 of Earth because what are they up to now? Yeah, they're like, let's tune in and see what's the latest insanity over there. I mean, I love my reality TV. Don't get me wrong, but we must be a hoot for it. Yeah, it's the alien comedy channel right at Earth. Exactly. Exactly. Well, and speaking of people might be like, why did she say speaking of Scientology before we get into it, Claire? In case there's anybody watching that might kind of know what Scientology is but doesn't know the basis of the religion, what's like Cliff Notes version? What is the theology of, if you can call it that, of Scientology? Yeah, there's, in my opinion, there's no theology. Cliff Notes version, that's really challenging. It's funny you say that because it's like even the Cliff Notes version is the size of a small encyclopedia. But essentially, it's a belief system, if you will, an entire language and an entire approach. A Scientologist believes obviously in the scriptures written by Elrond Hubbard, the founder. There's, you follow the bridge to total freedom, which is training on one side like courses, study, learning to become a counselor or an auditor, it's called in Scientology. And then the counseling side where you start at the very bottom and you go up to the upper levels, which are referred to as the operating Satan levels, where you get to operate as a, you know, the idea being it gives you tools and a belief system that make you a bigger, better being. That might maybe sum it up that way in a very, very short, without getting deep in the weeds on the different aspects. But Scientology does not believe in God, they don't pray, they don't worship other than worshiping Hubbard and David Miscavige, the current leader. Very, very culty. Very culty. Yes. Yes, exactly. Before we started, we were talking about the wonderful Sarah Edmondson and Nippy and I started listening to a little bit culty. Yeah, this is every very extreme culty. There you go. Well, it's so funny. You know what's interesting, Claire? And I see this with a lot of these, you know, we know that cults, cults is a big thing now and they can be, they can be anywhere. They can be in a gym, they can be, you know, we often think religion, we often think like Heaven's Gate, but they can literally, it's just high-control organizations. But the interesting thing about like Scientology and Nexium is that there's lots of sensationalism around some of these stories, you know, with Nexium, the branding. With Scientology, you see the Sea Orc members in their uniforms. You really get that, that cult feel of what stereotypically you would think of with a cult. And so I think, initially, those stories are what attract people to listen to you guys. But over time, I think what's so amazing about all cult survivors is the humaneness and the resilience. And it's just the incredible abuse that you guys have been through and the trauma you've been through and the fact that you're able to like pick yourselves up and keep going and not only keep going, but literally, I mean, it's safe to say that you are probably one of the biggest enemies of the Church at this point because of your work. I mean, that's probably a badge of honor at this point. Yeah, no, it is. Yeah, that's fair to say. I'm now the president of the Aftermath Foundation. We help people leave Scientology, start their lives over. And obviously, my husband and I from our YouTube channel are very vocal and really just sharing our experiences. But we've been gaining momentum. And I always give a shout out to the Neverins, because honestly, Neverins has got a term for that. Are we vlogs? Is that what you guys? Oh, my gosh, even that. So even that term, do you know that in other countries, it's a racial slur? Yeah, I do. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'm from England originally. I didn't even know it was a racial slur. And it's a racial slur in my birth country. Yeah, no, it's because it's an acronym. So Hubbard defined it as an acronym. So it's like completely worlds apart, though I'm quite sure he knew it was a racial slur. It's a derogatory term. And it's used as a derogatory term in Scientology to say, yes, a wog is, you know, they're an unenlightened being. Yes. Well, like a good narcissist, he probably knew it. So narcissists fascinate me as well. It's like, how are you so not empathetic to other human beings? But that's how these cults grow. Because like Claire, if someone like you or any of your friends were actually the head of Scientology, it wouldn't be probably be what it is today, because you wouldn't do the things that the underhanded aggressive and violent things that these and this is true for all cults for them to get to the point where they are because you it is kind of doggy dog like you can't care about other people in order to get to that place. And so it's and you guys I want to go ahead and take a moment to tell you guys that they her Claire's husband, Mark wrote a book. It is really good. And you guys literally like, I laugh because it makes me uncomfortable. You guys like Maverick style to escape Scientology. I know, I know, it's insane. I'm in the middle of writing my book now. But yes, Mark's book is excellent, blown for good behind the iron curtain of Scientology. And and actually in the paperback version, we have a copy of the police report that describes how a passerby when Mark was trying to escape ran a passerby witnessed the security staff from the headquarters running Mark off the road. And and the only reason he Mark succeeded in escaping is because the Riverside County Sheriff's Office responded to that call called for backup and literally escorted him to safety. It's, you know, I am somebody who has a belief in a higher power, call it God, whatever you want to call it. And I always think God just is higher consciousness is works in such mysterious ways sometimes where someone has to be at some point at just the right moment. And the trajectory of everything changes. Totally. It's it's unbelievable when you go back and look at everything in your own life and to see how this minute second, you know, if he had if your husband had decided to leave 30 minutes earlier, yes, have been a different story. Or even if I had gone home that night, because I factor in I know it's it's bizarre on every level. We never we so at the time he escaped he and I had been married for 13 years. We had never once talked about escaping or getting out of there because it was forbidden. And and if you do talk about it, it's a high crime and then you get you'll be on heavy manual labor and interrogation and, you know, and multiply it by two because if I mentioned it, then he'd have to throw me under the bus and tell or vice versa. I mean, I'm in a very good study relationship and it's like your partner, you I tell my boyfriend, my boyfriend knows everything about my life. And I, you know, we're we live like we're married. You know, even though down to the scent of how much money is in our checking account, I could not imagine being in a marriage where you can't even share your innermost fear, your innermost speculation, your doubts about I mean, that's and just hats off that you guys survive that and are now flourishing with children. And you know, it's a mate. It's it's it's truly and again, I want to reiterate that that is why I think people stick around and watch your story because it's it's the story of the human the power within a human being. Yes, overcome. And that is just to me, just one of the most breathtaking things to come out of all these big cult stories is that humans are so resilient. And they're so we are way way more way stronger and more powerful than we even know. And sometimes we don't even realize that until we're pushed to the point where we have to be. Yes, surprise ourselves. Yes, exactly. Like everything, everything happens happens for a reason, you don't know, you're right, you don't know how strong you are until you know, you have to do put on your big boy boots and do hard things. And they're not fun. And you might have a little PTSD from it. Oh my gosh, I know totally, absolutely. But you're you're right, though, even on. So yeah, in Mark's book, he talks about when he escaped and he talks about then how I did follow him three weeks later. But I've had that same thought about the moment when so summing up, you know, I got on a Greyhound bus and and they chased me across state lines, intercepted me at the Las Vegas bus station. And and it's talking about the higher power or whatever you want to call it doesn't doesn't matter. But being that I was born into Scientology, I'd been indoctrinated heavily from the age of four years old. For the bottom line is at that moment when they came to the bus station to take me back, I should have failed in my escape. And somehow I was just like, I'm going to sit on the floor and all my purse. And if they try and drag me out of here, I'm just going to scream. And I'll just hope that, you know, I don't know how things work out here in the real world, but I don't know, maybe somebody might help me. I don't know. Was that was that shocking to you guys when you got out when you started to interact with people in the real world? Were you surprised at how many people were willing? Did you have some some view that maybe people weren't so great in the real world or, you know, because you're not all Scientologists are in the Sea Org. And that's I think a lot of the more extreme stories do come from the Sea Org. But some people are public. So they are in the world with other with us normal. We're not necessarily normal, but you know, as other humans, we all got our own. You wonderful humans who have no idea of this craziness that we know all about. Were you guys shocked by that with how many people were so kind and willing to like give you chances and jobs and all that? I mean, was that was that I often wonder about that, especially when with these cults when people come out of like stuff like the Sea Org when they've been told one way, but what they experience is something different. Oh, totally. I mean, if you imagine if you'd been in one room your whole life, and you'd been told that everything outside that room was bad and evil. And you know, and then you walk out of the room. And what do you know, you're like, wow, there's amazing people out here and amazing opportunities. And, you know, we often get asked like, why are you so normal? I'm like, are you kidding me? Every, every day I wake up with joy of I'm free. This is my life pinch me. Is this real? Like, you know, this is the life I ever dreamed only ever dreamed I might have. The goals of Scientology actually happen in the real world. Yeah, exactly. I know and the irony that now we work with the aftermath foundation and help people start their lives over, which is incredibly inspiring and therapeutic work for us and helps, you know, it's it's just a different means of heading that trauma head on, you know, facing it head on and helping other people overcome those same things that we went through. But yeah, it's absolutely it's a wonderful world out here full of amazing, genuine, beautiful people with just such kindness. And yeah, it's it's been been a journey for sure. But it's been amazing. I'm so glad you're writing your book. So I go back to the beginning with you, Claire. So you were yours, what they call second generation, correct? Yes, you were born into it. You're was it your mother? I've watched some of your story. But was it your mother that kind of got into Scientology when it became the cool thing on the street, the new thing, you know, when it was Yes, my boyfriend's 10 years older than me. I'm 40. He's no, sorry. He's 11. He's 51. And he remembers even in the 80s, seeing the Dianetics, the books that were ties on MTV. Yes. And so was that kind of the entry point into for a lot of people this book Dianetics? Yeah. So that is, yeah, that's the basic book that is, you know, like, in fact, when I was 12, I was doing a course in Scientology. And one of the requirements was I had to sell Dianetics out on the street to a stranger. When most school kids are selling candy bars. Yeah, exactly. I'm selling Dianetics and Scientology, which oh my gosh, I've just anyway, not I was a very shy, young English lady, English girl. So it was not my thing to go out on the street. But but yes, my mom got in when she got into Scientology in the 70s in England. Her brother had gotten in, you know, his days of the hippies. And I was kind of like, and at that point, it was not it was not pitched as a religion, it was pitched as self help. And, you know, the religion piece was a marketing gimmick for the IRS to grant tax exempt status that came much later. But yeah, so it was, you know, self help. And my mom was, she got pregnant with me when she was 17. So she was young, rebelling against a Roman Catholic upbringing. And, and she and my dad both actually got in and more staff at the Manchester, Oregon, England. My dad then decided he wanted nothing further to do with it and left. They divorced and my mom joined the C organization, meaning she commit committed to a billion years of service when I was four years old. So essentially, that was the end of my life as I knew it. And you ended up in America with American accent. That's I know people question you about that a lot. But it's the funny thing about kids guys is like when kids move from their their accent changes so quickly, it's only us adults that get stuck in our way. So it's, I saw you with Andrew Gold saying you first were Manchester, then you were like, what, South England? Yes, you're like the scoring world of accents. I know, but you know, you want to know a funny thing though. So I was told, because I moved to the US when I was 13. And I was told I was too old. I was not going to lose my accent. Well, you probably don't may maybe you know this, maybe you don't in Scientology, they go to the ends of the earth doing what they call word clearing and dictionaries. Have you heard of this before? I heard you all talk about this. It sounds tedious and boring. Yeah, it's it's terribly boring. Though I don't actually mind, you know, I don't mind using a dictionary. I don't consider it unique to Scientology. Obviously, Scientology didn't create a dictionary. I'm like etymologies of words and things like that. That is the etymology is fascinating for sure. Yes, yes. And so but so even when I married Mark, when I was, we got married when I was 17, I still had leftovers of an of an English accent to my family in England, I had an American accent. But to Americans, I had a British accent still and then one day I, I was looking at the pronunciation key in an American dictionary and I it suddenly clicked. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is the key to unlocking to get an getting an American accent. Yeah, like the example I remember it was like this moment of like, Oh my gosh, I got this because A's and the R's are the piece of the accent I couldn't crack. And I was looking at the word walk, W-A-L-K. And in England, we would say walk or walk, something like that. And I'm looking at the pronunciation key and it's W-O-K. And I'm like walk. Yeah. And then the person I was with who was American was like, That's it. You're saying it right. Is the aliens told us that the America that knows? Yeah, so that that was it. My my accent within a few years after that was long gone. And I always wanted an American accent. So it was really something I strove for. That's so funny. I took a class in college about diphthongs where Americans and Canadians, we use the muscles more in our mouth to speak, whereas like English Australians, it's a little bit considered a lazier accent. That's why there's the more long it's very fascinating to watch. And I've spent, you know, my off of YouTube, I'm highly educated in Eastern philosophy. And we can talk a bit about that because I know where Hubbard stole some of his ideas and inverted them. Oh, good. I'm all ears. I want to hear all about that. That's what really pisses me off. He took a very beautiful faith. When I have to take Sanskrit classes, my Sanskrit teacher with the Americans and any Western or really, we have a hard time hearing some of the different slight differences in the way they pronounce their vowels because it's interesting. It's just very interesting the way the mouth works, the way the ear works with the mouth, depending on where you're raised. It's just very fascinating, all that stuff. But yeah, it's with Dianetics, because, you know, scientifically and spiritually, because really, they're both the same. Darkness can't create anything. It just can't. The only thing that can create is the light. We think we see this in like photosynthesis. So if we look at this from a human being's perspective, people who are narcissistic or psychopathic, they don't have the capacity to create. It's only people with empathy, compassion that are like considered light beings that can actually create. So what we see with a lot of these, we see this with Keith Reneire, we see this with Elrond Hubbard, they take truths from usually from an ancient text and they invert it because that's what the darkness can do. It can mimic the light or it can steal from the light and invert. And so it's interesting with the Dianetics, like how that, because I could absolutely see how that would open the door, because all of the ancient Eastern philosophy is about the reactive mind. Totally. And I would add one step to that, by the way, mimic, take it, and then pretend to be the source of it. Yeah. Listen, listen, if there by chance any Scientologists watching it, Elrond Hubbard did not create this idea of a reactive mind. That is a very old, the Yoga Sutras, which is right here, 5,000 year old text, the second sutras, Yoga Chitravrti Narodaha, which is basically saying that shit's on the brain, the viti, the thoughts is what is controlling your life. Wow. Oh my gosh, we're going to have so many amazing conversations. I know. Well, that's what I was actually, I was meeting to ask you this off camera after we get through all the real current events, which listen, I said to you, I care of Scientology is just the gift that keeps on giving like every day something new. I mean, if I were David Miscavige, I would just be like, beat me up, Scotty. Come get me, Xena. Which is about where he's at right now. I mean, yeah, you know, he hasn't been seen in public in however long. And the comment that I always make is like, wow, look at this Scientology is, you know, by this point, a multi-billion dollar organization. And how many people do they have who will speak publicly representing them? Zero. Oh, it's, I was telling you before we got on Claire, I was listening to Emily Baker break down the Leah Remini lawsuit and it was cracking me up. Even the things she was saying about their response, hearing an attorney be like, like making these like comments, like, what the hell is this? You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, but this is, this is karma, right? This is action and reaction. That's what karma is. It's cause and effect. And sometimes the wheels of justice turn slowly, but sometimes by them turning slowly, that karma is more excruciating for the person that's in need of that justice. And I was going to tell, tell you after we get through all the really important things, I would love to do a show with you about going through the theology and just talk about where it actually comes from and where it was manipulated. Oh, that would be amazing. I would so love that. I'm down. Sign me up. Eastern philosophy, these texts were never meant to be used as control mechanisms. Yeah. It was all supposed to be for the person's own personal liberation and that was it. And I know, I know we want to talk about your awesome amazing documentary you guys just made with Serge. I've seen that now four times. Oh my gosh. Every freaking time. I mean, talk about, I can't even, I think about things I've been through in my life and I'm like, well, I've got nothing to complain about. Serge has an incredible story and I've seen it, I don't know, by now 20, 30 times and I can't stop crying either. It's just a beautiful thing. And shout out to what Kelly copter. She edited that. Oh, yes. I know how hard editing can be and the fact that she was able to put that together and really, I mean, even for someone like me or someone else who's not been, is not, it was never in Scientology to understand what happened to him. And I don't want to give too much away. But there is something I've heard you guys say a lot is that, you know, what happened to him, he was in a situation where he was really helpless. And you said that like Scientology would say that he pulled it in, like maybe some kind of existence. And Claire, that has pissed me off so much. Because I know where they're getting that from. And that's not what that means as far as the Eastern philosophy. Oh, what I would say the karmic, if you believe in past lives with Eastern philosophy does, is that the answer to that would be, and you guys just have to watch the documentary to understand what I'm saying, they would say, my teachers would say, the reason why Serge was allowed himself his soul to get in this situation was so that he could learn how to receive love unconditional. Wow. Wow. So it's nothing like what that's. Yeah. So in the Scientology version of it is you've done bad things in prior lifetimes, committed crimes. And therefore, you've, you've created, they call it more specifically the overt motivator sequence. So an overt is an act that you, something you've done that's a transgression, you've now created a vacuum as, you know, a vacuum, if you will, that will now cause you to suck in bad things to happen to you because of what you did. And that's a manipulation of karma. I mean, yeah, karma is cause and effect. And, but no, it's in the human life. And I think everybody watching this knows this is complex. And so sometimes when we see people doing bad things, there's it's, unless you're a narcissist or a psychopath, there's probably a very complex reason why. And so like the universe, God does not judge that the way that we would judge it, right? There's there's complexities here and there's forgiveness and empathy. And so when I watched a documentary and I heard you talk about the pulling in, I would say, wait a minute, given his circumstances in this life and literally he got to the point where he was completely helpless. Like he had to, he had to accept unconditional love and support from somebody else in order to survive. You guys see this documentary. So I, as someone trained in this would say, no, this is not because he did something wrong in a past life. If that were the case, he'd probably be in prison right now. Yeah. What it looks like is that if I had to guess and I don't know, but if I had to guess for many lives, he was probably the person that everyone relied on. He, his soul knew how to give love. His soul knew how to carry other people. But the one thing he was struggling with was how to receive it for himself. And so the way they would say, yeah, it's, it's beautiful. The way that God, your guys, whatever you want to call it would say, um, okay, so talking to Serge his soul, what can we do in this upcoming life so you really learn how to receive love? Yeah. We're going to have to put you in a position where you're literally hopeless. Yeah. All the option you have is to accept that love from another, from another human being. Yeah. And that's what happened. Yeah. Yeah, which is completely different than, you know, I mean, you, you talked about, and even in the documentary, he even says, oh, Serge mentions like why his family stopped talking to him and all this is like, oh, I must have done something bad and, oh my goodness. I know. That's not me the most. I text you. I said, you know, like what happened to him is a tragedy. But the bigger tragedy is the fact that his family walked away. Yes. That's the bigger tragedy. So he went through that betrayal trauma from the people that are supposed to love him. Yes. And then had to accept the unconditional love from people who are not biologically related to him. Yes. That's right. Yeah. No, I know. I did, um, right before COVID hit, I had auditioned to do a TED talk on growing up in cults. And because of COVID, I never ended up doing it. But I ended up doing the, just the, the audition version on our YouTube channel. And in there, I, I talk about the fact that unconditional love does not exist in Scientology, especially as a child growing up in it. You know that love from your parents is entirely dependent upon your unbroken and complete, um, adherence to that belief system. Um, it's a, it's, it's just the fact. I, you know, and we see that actually with a lot of religions, there's a lot of like extreme Christianity faiths that will kick their kids out if they, I mean, hell, I mean, they argue about my Jesus is better than your Jesus. And it's like, you know, and I do have to say when I hear these stories, you know, I'm so grateful for my parents. They were conservative Christians, but they've been very, you know, I ended up running off to India. You know, they've been very open and, um, and it just makes you appreciate, I was telling you with surge, like, I'm 40 years old, my mom had to take me to the doctor a few months. I'm sure you would do that for your kids. I would do the pieces. Like it's, it's what you do. And so what is, because I, I, I'm assuming that most of, I'm under the belief that most people in these cults, as we were saying before we got on camera are really empathetic, good people who've been manipulated in cohorts. Yes. Yes. Completely. That, that is my belief. I don't think, I think that, um, the high control element attracts people who a small handful of people who enjoy the leverage and power that it gives them over other people. But for the most part, you're, you're the majority of people in that organization are there because they want to help other people and they fell for something and they believe in it. And, you know, in retrospect, I always go, I also believe in the power of belief. So, you know, if they think that what they're doing is working for them, then to some small degree, probably is in that moment. But again, you have to evaluate what, what, you know, look at the actions, like look at the group, what, what are they doing? What impacts are they having? And the moment you, you get into, oh, they're destroying families and hurting people and taking and destroying people's lives. And, you know, on and on and on, then you have to go, what am I doing here? Seriously, like I, I want to help people. I'm not helping people. And you have to kind of take a step back. And no matter how many years you've been in it, it can be very, very difficult when you've committed to that path and you've, you know, put so much of your life force, if you will, into the group. But it's never too late to get out, never too late to wake up and never too late to course correct and change, change your life journey. That's my perspective. I mean, I, and I think you guys actually just did a video with somebody else before you, Claire. And I said that because we were talking about how people get so upset in their lives and they don't know how to change. And it's like, listen, I says I'm about to interview Claire Headley. And I've watched literally all of their, everybody in that SPTV groups videos. And it is so inspiring because these people leave the C organization in their 40s, sometimes 50s. They don't even have a driver's license. They don't have a checking account. And they, they make something up their life. And they, Amy Scoby's video, she talks about that with the furniture, furniture. I mean, it's, it's beautiful. And to see that, that joy of just being free and finding that inspiration to restart, it is, as long as you're breathing, you can do anything. And I, you know, I, I heard somebody on one of those YouTube, YouTube shorts say, I'm not going to call myself like 40 years old anymore. I'm going to say I'm at level 40, like level 40. You're at level 50. Like you're a badass. You're at level. Yes. Yes. Completely celebrate, celebrate life. You're either, why not? Why not? You, you've survived and you've, you've lived this, this, you know, for you, Claire, and your husband, Mark, like I have to say too, you guys crack, everybody in the SPTV has such an incredible sense of humor, which according to my teachers in Indiana with Scientology isn't going to like this, but having a sense of humor is the highest form of spirituality. Nice. According to the Indian teacher, because that's when you're able to, well, that's, that's interesting. So, so Hubbard says laughter, this is direct quote, by the way, laughter is a form of rejection. What? Right? Like, you're laughing because there's something wrong with it. I know it. You see the inversion, right? We're, we're like, no, if you have a sense of the, the param guru of our lineage would like, if somebody was, took it too seriously, he would like kick them out of the class and be like, you come back when you can relax a little bit and like, wow, and kind of laugh at yourself and just kind of understand that this life is just here for you to experience. And there's, and you know, and the people who believe in demons, the, the one thing I've heard about fighting off demons is laugh at them because they don't understand laughter. They don't understand it because it comes from joy, right? It comes from death. And you guys, I, and it's true, you're, you're sorry not to cut you off, but you're absolutely right. Like you laugh, it brings the lightness in that that's, that's my perspective. I go, I can either laugh or I can cry and crying is not going to help anybody, not at least of all me. I'm not going to effectively communicate about anything if I'm crying. So, you know, what, what else is there to do? Laughter is contagious. It's been a Presbyterian church and I had that one friend that I could not look at in the middle of church because we would just start cracking up at each, you know, like it's, we would just be shaking laughing. It's contagious and that's what's new and all the people on the SPTV group, you guys all have an incredible sense of humor. And I just find that so admirable because of all that you've been through that you're able to actually laugh and it makes fun of the trauma in a way. And I'll never forget, of course, I first saw you guys only a remedy in the aftermath, but it had been a few years. So then when I saw Mark being interviewed by Aaron and he talked about the story of being on the back of Tom Cruz's motorcycle and he's telling the story that all of a sudden he just goes like a little bitch. We were cleaning our house and both my boyfriend and I just lost it. We started laughing so hard and my boyfriend was like, rewind it, rewind it. He goes outside with our dog and picks up our dog's poop. He's like, yeah, Robbie pooped and I picked it up like a little bitch. No, it's just it's appreciated that and it just it brings such a human. I mean, life is funny. It's awkward. It's weird. It's funny. You know, and so, you know, laughter is a wonderful thing and all you guys have such an incredible sense of humor. But speaking of SPTV, I'm sure people don't even know what an SP is. What is that there? Yes. So let's talk about that. So essentially, SP stands for suppressive person and it's a so suppressive person is an antisocial personality Hubbard lists 12 traits of an antisocial person personality which includes things like bent on the destruction of all humankind, speaks only in very broad generalities, wants people to get worse, people around them get sick, blah, blah, blah. When, when Mark and I escaped, we would declared suppressive persons like we have a piece of paper that says that we're, we're, we're a, so I Claire Headley, I'm a suppressive person and that my only recourse is to do what Scientology calls A to E steps to get back in good standing as a Scientologist, which is the only way I'd ever be able to speak to my family ever again, for example, and pay $96,000 bill to them and blah, blah, blah. So we actually, actually as part of the, you know, in our journey out of Scientology, we now sell bracelets that say SP, we call it special people or, you know, superpowers, whatever you want. It's kind of like a way to just embrace it and go, you know what, I grant no power to Scientology's labels on me. I grant no power to the lies they spread about me, about my family. I'm, I'm, I'm out. You, and I, I do firmly believe that the only thing I have to be afraid of is if I give Scientology power over me, you know, for a long time I was very fearful. Mark started talking out and just talking about our experiences two years before I did. And I was terrified. I won't lie because I know what Scientology does to their quote, enemies unquote, they aggressively go after them and go after destroying anything you care about. And, and it's documented, they've done it for seven decades. So, you know, but on the other hand, too, I go, do I want my kids to be afraid of these people? Hell no. Do I want my kids to think that I'm afraid of the big bad bully? Absolutely not. Yeah. It's, it's, it's wild and it's, it's, I think it's hard for people to understand why that would be fearful when they're not in it, but you mentioned the, the root of that, and that's the disconnection. Yeah. And, and yes, and fair game. So there's hundreds of policies in Scientology written by Hubbard that document exactly how to destroy anyone who ever dares to speak negatively about Scientology, even if the person's not a Scientologist for crying out loud. Right. And that's, um, in the fair gaming guys, that is if you look up, um, if anybody watching right now, if you just look at the play, if you look up narcissistic abuse and you go through the points of narcissistic abuse, it's fascinating because you also see the same playbook in these high control organizations. And that's why I like how they say, you know, there's these big cults where there's a cult of one as well. People who get involved in narcissistically abusive relationships are going through the same playbook. Now for people like Claire and the rest of everybody who's left, it's a bigger scale because they have the media, they have billions of dollars in the bank, you know, when you're with one person, it's just like minor smear campaigns. But fair gaming is like smear campaigns to the nth degree. Um, it is unbelievable what they, what they will do. The good news is, I don't think anybody, I think, I don't think anybody in the real world takes them seriously when they try to, you know, it's comical at this point because, but at one point I'm sure before, you know, back when a lot of the, I know the big cases you're talking about with the, with the journalists who they went really far with her, didn't they? Oh yeah, Paulette Cooper. Yes. Yeah. No, they, they tried to frame her. Um, they tried to get her to unalive herself. They tried to get her committed to a psychiatric hospital. Uh, they, I mean, they planted her fingerprints on a bomb threat. Uh, you know, like extreme just because, and again, she was never in Scientology. She wrote an article. Um, uh, I can't remember the name of it right now, but, um, in the 70s, she wrote an article about Scientology and they, they had an entire operation that was dead set on destroying this woman. And the, like back in the 70s, I'm sure many, uh, you know, common, common folk out there didn't know much about. So what they're being told is probably presented as true to them. Whereas now in 2023, like everyone kind of laughs about it now. I mean, you know, South Park did an amazing job. Oh yes. Yes. But even, even South Park. So Mark, my husband on our YouTube channel has been doing this series called the spy files, where we have all these internal documents and they were even trying to infiltrate South Park, the South Park production company and following them, private investigators, all of that. You know, so, so no one is exempt from the fair game approach that Scientology aggressively uses to try and silence its critics. And, you know, again, you just go really in this day and age, this is being paid for. These, these tactics are being paid for by tax exempt dollars. Exactly. Because the IRS granted them tax exempt status. And, you know, what point is somebody going to pay attention in the government and actually look into this and do something about it? Well, it's, and it's crazy because it's like, there's also whispers of trafficking. Like there's just so much now with Scientology that it really demands attention. You know, if we gave Glaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein all this attention, why aren't we going to give, and of course we haven't seen their little black book, but why aren't we going to also give Scientology this attention too? Because it's, it's one thing for one person to be saying something, but for a whole bunch of people to be saying the exact same thing, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire. And it's crazy. I, in this morning, taking a shower, I was thinking about our interview and I was thinking about the whole tax exemption thing and how complicated that is in a lot of ways too. Because yeah, everybody should have the freedom to believe whatever they want, but your freedoms end when they encroach on somebody else's rights and somebody else's happiness. Yes. So that is what Scientology is doing. No one cares if you believe in Zeno. Like I don't listen, listen. If you believe in want to worship fairies and dance around naked in your backyard, worshiping fairies sounds like a good time. As long as you're not hurting anybody, like you do, you boo, as long as you're not hurting anybody. And that's my problem with like the polygamy of the FLDS. You know, if these women want this, then that's great, but do they really want it or are they coerced into it? Right. That's where it becomes very interesting and where there needs to be some sort of more legislation. And I don't I do believe Scientology needs its tax exemption revoked because Well, you know, it's interesting you say that because in Australia, the way they have their government set up is at least, and I don't understand all the ins and outs of it, but I do understand that when it comes to tax exempt status, they have a public benefit test. Like the organization has to actually pass that test to maintain their tax exempt status, which is brilliant because it's not a what one and done, you know, what, what do you what does an organization then do with that money? Look at it. Does it does it create a public benefit or does it not? Exactly. So I mean, as you're saying, I'm thinking too, like there's some religious in the world that believe in human sacrifice doesn't mean that they get tax exempt status. And you know, it's, you know, when I was as you're saying that too, so my boyfriend's family settled all of the Tampa Bay, Sarasota area. If you guys are not familiar with this area of Florida, all these little cities are these cities are kind of blobbed together as one really they're kind of but Clearwater's right there. And that's kind of like y'all's Vatican City, right? It's like the Mecca Mecca of technical perfection is what it's called. Well, we we want to move down there eventually. And we've been to Clearwater a couple of times. The first time was it was right after the aftermath show and we just want to go check it out. And the second time was because there was so much empty buildings, we thought, what if we open a business, you know, our Charlotte down there. But I will tell you, it is sad to see Clearwater is such a ghost town. Yeah. It is. I mean, surely, I mean, I know there's cognitive distance there, but surely to God, these C org members have to notice that there's not anything. There's no one there. Right? Yeah, I know. What are they telling them to make him understand like to make them think that this is normal? Yeah, I know what you said. So that the nature of a Scientologist, they're not asking a whole lot of questions. The second you start asking questions or having critical thoughts is pretty much the house of cars is going to fall down real quick. You can't you can't insert logic into that. I will say the first time we were there, we walked around the big, I guess, the flag. We had our dog with us. So we were walking and my dog's very friendly and he loves to flirt. And these C org members were kind of huddled together in this doorway talking. And right as we walked by, they jumped out to see my dog. And my dog loved it. And they were asking us questions about him. Not once did they try to sell us on Scientology or anything like that. They were just petting my dog and he was just loving it. And so I want to say like, yeah, these are at the heart, probably really good people. Now, they were probably watching us on the camera because they were just like, they were. Yeah, they have they have a lot of cameras there. Yeah. And they don't actually they don't actually bring new people in there. Yeah. So they have an org, an organization in Tampa. That's where they would bring new people in and then you'd graduate up to flag, which is in Clearwater. But yeah, yeah, there's not, you know, I say probably most C org members feel that they're trapped and would like to get out if they could many times their second generation like I like I am, you know, so they know that if they leave Scientology, it comes at very great cost, which which is awful, you know, you shouldn't. I don't know. I think you should be you should be able to make your own life choices and not have your family dependent on, you know, your belief system is just wrong. No, it absolutely is. And that is such. It's like, it's so it's also that Sophie's choice situation where you're really between a rock and a hard place. And I want everybody watching to really think about that. Also, this is all you've ever known. Yes. This is your reality and reality is perception. And this is what you have been told your whole life. Yeah, true. And to then start to question that is going to cause a lot of internal struggle. And then to also if you decide to leave and to test out the the wild world of us walks, you're going to lose your support system, your family. That's right. Yeah. Heartbreaking. Yeah. So freaking heartbreaking. And I can't like, want to hear stories about grant. I mean, your your kids don't know your parents, correct? That's right. No, they do not. The only grandparent they knew was my my husband's dad. So the grandpa, my father in law who passed in December 2019. And and he and he is amazing. But, you know, they don't they don't know my parents at all. In fact, when my oldest son was seven or eight one day, he said to me, mom, when did your mom die? I said, son, she's not dead. You know, so I've had to explain at age in an age appropriate way to our kids like, you know, sometimes the people get involved in organizations that are very controlling. And because of such an organization, my parents are not allowed to talk to us. It's, you know, it sucks. And especially, you know, they're my kids. I want them to only be surrounded by unconditional love. And so we've we've adopted our family of choice, if you will. And, you know, that's that's what they have. And then also, I've been able to reconnect with family, you know, extended family who were never in Scientology, which has been amazing. So it's not all, you know, yes, there's the heartbreak of disconnection and I'm not downplaying that. But at the same token, I don't want that poison of Scientology in my life at all. You know, that toxicity is by me. Thank goodness. And I can't imagine from your mother's perspective, I can't imagine not seeing my grandchildren. I could not. I don't have kids, but my nephew and nieces, I would literally take a bullet for those kids, you know, like, I can't that was when my nephew was first born, my kid who made me an aunt, I remember holding him and thinking, Oh, this is what unconditional love feels like. I would literally lay my life down for this child. Completely. And I know that for grandparents, I see my mom with her grandkids. And it's like, I know your mother probably deep down. That's probably a wound for her too. I would I would hope so. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, when we were still living in Los Angeles, there was a few times that we went to my sister's softball games because we're like, why why should we agree with this? Like, right, what's wrong with going to see that they're alive and that they're doing well and cheering on for my sister. And so we were sitting like three rows away from my mom and my stepdad with my son. And they just acted like we weren't there. Clear. I could not. That is, that is some role because I would not have been able to, if that had been my nephew or nieces, like I would not have been able to like turn around and not like hug those kids. And I know, I know it's sad. It's really sad. It's, it's tragic, actually. And I don't, you know, I hope my mom has peace with her decisions. I wouldn't. I never would in a million years, you know, with kids of my own now. I mean, my husband called my mom when I was in the hospital giving birth to my first son. And he said, I just want you to know we're here at the hospital. Everything's okay. You know, and she she said, I can't talk to you and she hung up the phone. I know it's, it's brutal. I mean, if I had, if I was giving birth, I think the only person I'd want in that room was my mom, you know, like, right, want your mom. Like there's just, I don't think no matter how old you get, there's always, you know, as I get older, I think about my parents eventually passing away and that scares the shit out of me, you know, because your parents are like, and it's just terrible that this psychopath, in my opinion, I think L Ron Hubbard and Miss Gavage, in my opinion, are are probably psychopaths. Oh yeah, completely, completely. One created it and the other has just picked up and kept on going and made it even more brutal. Exactly. And I can't like just the things, how can they live? I mean, I guess the kids, they don't care. You know, they don't. They don't give a shit. And for psychopaths or narcissists, you, you are theirs to play with. You are theirs to do things with. And it's, if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, it's isolation. They isolate you from people. That's what cults do. They isolate you. And, you know, any, if Scientology is reaching for liberation, censoring people and disconnecting from other humans is not the way to get there. Exactly. I know totally. There's, there's another Hubbard quote, which is quote, communication is a universal solvent unquote. I'm sure that's taken from somewhere else. I'm positive. I'm sure it's not. It wasn't, I don't know that Hubbard ever had an original thought. I honestly don't know. But, but the last time I saw my mom and my stepdad was at my grandmother's funeral, which was in June 2011. And my grandmother was never in Scientology. She was the most beautiful part of my whole life. And so when it came, her time to pass, you know, my aunt told me, she said, look, she's not looking good. She's not going to make it. You're absolutely welcome to come. I just want you to know going in that your mom is here. And, you know, because she knew it was going to be awkward and awful and everything. Anyway, long story short at the end, after the funeral, and there was a big family dinner. It's huge Roman Catholic Irish family, you know, huge, like 40 people in this restaurant. My mom and my stepdad got up to leave. And so I knew that probably I was going to be the last time I realistically ever saw them. So I went to my mom and I gave her a hug and I said, I love you, mom. This was, she had disconnected from me in January 2005. So this was, you know, June 2011. So a good amount of time has passed. And she hugged me back and she said, I love you. I hope to see you again very soon. That's when she whispered in my ear. And then I go to my stepdad, and I go to give him a hug. He said, well, I don't feel inclined to give you a hug. And I'm like, well, I don't care. So I hugged him anyway. And then I said to him, don't you believe communication is a universal solvent? He didn't like that. I mean, okay, so I'm going to say this, if there are any Scientologists watching right now, maybe you can find the same sort of work on yourself, self-help in a yoga class. And even though there are yoga cults out there, trust me, there are, if you find it, most teachers are not going to try to, I mean, we're really good in our shawla. We don't, we very much have very strict boundaries because we don't want other people to become, we want them to figure it out for themselves. And most other, they're going to listen. If I had a student come and say, I'm taking away all my people, my life, who don't practice yoga, I'd be like, you're making a very bad mistake because those are some of the most fascinating people in your life who do other things that you're going to learn the most from. So I just, I want people to know that you don't have to go through these extremes in order to find that liberation. You can live, you can be, and I know we're running low on time, there's just so much. I mean, like I said, you guys saw Scientology, just to get the keeps on giving. It's amazing. It's such a part of our, our pop culture now. I mean, we've got, you've got a full series on Shelly Muscavige, The Missing, which I think is fascinating because it's not the way that us people never ends. Think of someone as being missing, which I want to definitely cover with you at some point. You were the freaking star witness at the Danny Masterson trial. Well, so I was the expert witness. Yes. So I, I don't like you said that term just only because the Jane does in that case. I mean, what they've been through my role was simply testifying about the Scientology policies and procedures. But yes, that, that we could have a whole separate conversation about that. Listen, girl, listen, I have anxiety disorder. So if that had been me, I probably would have peed my pants on the stand. So like, even props for like having the balls to be able to do it and just get it done and justice was served. So for people like Danny Masterson, he probably called it in because he probably was doing something naughty in past life, but people like Serge, not at all. But we, we, we look at this karma thing. And I mean, there's so much, we've got the Leah Romani lawsuit that just dropped. Holy shit. I mean, there's so much to talk about with you, Claire. And I would love to continue these conversations and definitely get into the theology and look and pick through the completely. Yes, no, I would love to. In fact, so in what something that we've been working on more recently is putting together a list of like, start here steps. So like, if there's a book that you would recommend to me that a Scientologist could read that might help them to start waking up a little bit, like in other words, yes, of course, I could say, Oh, read my husband's book blown for good behind the iron curtain of Scientology, a Scientologist and active Scientologist will be like, Oh, I can't read that. You know, of course, once they start getting out, they will, they will read it and it will be incredibly helpful. But I'm looking for those baby steps like, what's just going to start the wheels turning for you kind of thing? I would say, I mean, if there's so I would say probably a good starter that has nothing to do really with Scientology would be like the Yoga Sutras of Patangeli. Normally, these are taught in a class, but if you already have studied in the reactive mind, you're going to understand what Patangeli is saying in this. And I think for somebody it might be plant some seeds that Oh, this wasn't created by Hubbard and this dude is like nowhere in the sutras does it say you have to join a group. Nice. Yeah, it's just, it's Patangeli was a scientist. He also was the father of are you beta medicine and he was literally taking notes about why people behave the way they do. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, and see that so yeah, anyway, yeah, we'll definitely have to have a number of other conversations. Go down some rabbit holes. I mean, it makes me mad because I'm spending so much time in India and around so many Sanskrit scholars and these palm gurus and seeing the beauty and these teachings. For those people who are spiritual, it potentially goes a little deeper and says your thoughts and your attachment to thought is actually separate you from God and just having faith in God and understanding that your thoughts are what get you in trouble within your own self is what liberates you to have that faith for people who are religious. But beyond that, Ishwara God has only mentioned a few times. So I know plenty of people who practice yoga who are not religious at all or their atheists, but they use that to help monitor themselves and so they don't work themselves up, right? So much. I mean, I'm looking at I mean, there's just so many things that that they could any wrong DOS books. I mean, he was brilliant as far as like the way he explained it in modern terms that would make him go, wait a minute, wait a minute, Mr. Hubbard might not have been the one to this might be a really old theory. He might be a modern day plagiarist that should be in the history books as epic accomplishments. Delaney actually started talking about this. So, you know, it's it's it's it's so and I really that's what makes me the most angry looking at which and I don't want to buy dynetics. I don't want to give a Scientology any money, you know, but I if I had a copy of it, I'd probably read it and circle everything that he's saying, you know, as far as like past life stuff. Yeah, there are a lot of religions that believe in past lives. But that doesn't define this life. You're in this life now. Yeah. Well, I have a link that I can share with you for our for our comparison project. Oh, perfect. When it comes to philosophy, I'm a nerd. I love it. I love I laugh if there was to be an apocalypse and like 1000 years from now, they found my book shelf in this room, they'd be like, what religion was this person? The only thing I don't have is any Elron Hubbard books. There you go. Let's keep it that way, please. I'll I'll take care that you don't need any physical copies. So I just think it's fascinating and you can take something from everything and you know, for the positive side of Scientology, with the reactive mind stuff, you guys, you can get that in a yoga class, you do not have to sell your soul to some freaking cult, you can just go to your freaking yoga class and just start there and they're not going to make you cut off from anybody. You know, it's it's really not that, you know, it's it's and you can laugh and you know, that's awesome. You won't get you won't get in trouble for making jokes. No, you'll get in trouble for making jokes. You might see the teacher laugh and so on farts in the class. So it's all good. It's a good time. Yeah, they have a Hubbard calls them jokers and degraders. Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. I know that's that's what Mark always got in big trouble for was joking and degrading. You know, he you guys are so you guys are hashtag couple goals because I tell you it takes a lot to make my boyfriend laugh. He laughs at Schitt's Creek and he thinks he's hysterical. So that's awesome. So he's a fan. He I've actually shocked he hasn't come in to say hey, but but you guys I am going to be putting of course all I wanted to show you guys quickly before we sign off. If you didn't miss Leah Remini show, Scientology in the aftermath, it came out years ago. I went and rewatched it when you guys started doing your your your YouTube channels. And I want to say y'all's first episode is season one episode five, correct? Yes, that's right. Golden era. Yep. And you all have even more episodes. I went through and skim through yesterday where you get deeply into like the abuses because you guys Claire was like up there. She was one of the top dogs in Scientology. And so she has a lot to say when it comes to what she witnessed. And so I would and a lot of those people that she speaks with have YouTube channels as well. If I can remember, I'll tag everybody's channel down there. So and if you want more information on the on Scientology as a whole, I mean, y'all's YouTube channel, I you got so much information about everything within the organization. And so I would absolutely suggest going to blown for good on YouTube. I will again put that link down in the description box below. I will also be putting a link to the aftermath foundation, which is the nonprofit will be probably speaking even more about that. You got a fundraiser going on. I'm going to try to link it my page to your fundraiser because if you guys I mean, listen, I run a nonprofit out of India for a slum street kids and street dogs. And I'm telling you guys with nonprofits, even if you can spare a dollar, it goes a long way at 50,000 subscribers. If everyone gave a dollar, that's $50,000. And I know that if I had millions of dollars after I watched that documentary on search, I'd be like, I'd be giving them because it is real quickly clear. I have a lot of viewers from other countries. And so we know Scientology is global there in other countries. If somebody is in another country and wants to help with the aftermath foundation, can they help? Can they contact you guys from like another country if they know somebody that you guys can kind of coordinate with them too? Very definitely. Yes, yes. We've worked with people in other countries, helped them get out. We've helped people get back from Australia, back to the US and other. So yeah, we're not strictly within the US. Any Scientologist who needs help starting their life over, that's why we're here. Absolutely. And I'm going to definitely guys. First thing I'm going to put up there is Surge's documentary. I know I shared it on my community tab and I already got so much responses. My moderator shared it. I sent it to my friend in Australia to spread it around and so but keep sharing it guys because it's a beautiful story even just for the story itself of human resilience. And I just fell in love with Surge. I just wanted to like hug him. I mean, I just literally was ugly crying every time. Thank you so much. Yes, no, it's definitely a story of inspiration and overcoming incredible odds and just accepting what life throws at you with such grace and compassion and understanding and love that he came out with the other end. It was honestly an honor for us to be able to help him along in his journey. And he learned how to receive love. Yes. That's just as important as giving it. So yes, he is definitely a hero in our house as are you guys. And so you guys, I'm going to put all the things, all the things down in the description box. I'm sure by the time we talk next week, our next time, Claire, we're talking more because it's just the gift and and I will put a link to Emily D Baker's breaking down the lawsuit file by Leah remedy, all the things guys. Is there anything else you want me to add to the description box, Claire? Anything besides links to the aftermath foundation? I don't think so. Well, the so SBTV Kelly copter has a channel growing up in Scientology. Aaron Smith Levin has a ton of great content. He's been he's been doing videos multiple times a day for I don't know like a long time with the SP dog, right? Does he have a dog? Yes. Yes. Goliath. Goliath. I think I rewatched his yes. It's the episode right after y'all's where he talks about the dog. Because they're yes declared. Yeah, his dog was declared a suppressive dog. You just can't make some of this up. You can't make any of it up. Actually, it's it's like, you know, truth is stranger than stranger than fiction, right? That's Scientology for you. Our queen said that truth is stranger than fiction. And he also said it's a whole lot easier to fool someone than convince them they've been fooled. And we see that with Colt a lot. We see that with religions a lot. And so again, I want to make that perfectly clear. It doesn't matter what you believe in. You can believe in whatever you want to believe in what matters is how you treat other people. That's right. That's the that's it. I don't think many people care what you believe in as long as listen, assholes come in all shapes and forms. Exactly. Anyway, thank you so much, Claire. I'd spend I feel like I could just talk to you for hours. This is same to you. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm so glad that we got to connect and do this. And I am dead serious. Reach out to me anytime. I'd love to do any of those things we talked about when we get off. Let's schedule song because I'm so you guys she's coming back. She's coming back to the channel. So if you have any specific questions for Claire, just put them in the comment section below. If by chance I have somebody watching who wants to maybe talk to Claire privately, but you're scared to reach out because if you're involved inside, you can send me an email at esotericatlanta.com. I can forward it over to Claire. And so you can. So I don't know if they check your emails or anything like that. So I'm putting that out there as well. So anyway, guys, but yeah, everything will be in the description box. Guys, please share this video because we want to try to get the aftermath foundation as much much money as we can. As I say, when people go low, we just got to go meet them with going higher. And so be be the love you wish to receive in the world. And as Ram Dass says, as I say all the time on this channel, we are all walking each other home or all in this together. And so anyway, guys, have a wonderful day, and we will talk to you soon. Bye everybody.