 After 11 years Shell agrees to pay Oguni people a compensation of 45.9 billion for oil spills in their community. And Lagos state governments moves to reduce pensions of ex-governance. This is plus politics and I am Mary Annacorte. The Shell Petroleum Development Company, SBDC, has agreed to pay the 45.9 billion Naira awarded to the Oguni people of river state as the compensation for the oil spills in their communities. The lawyer to Shell, E. O. E. Gelamon, said the company had resolved to pay the monetary compensation awarded in 2010. In 2001, the Oguni people had instituted a suit against the oil company for the losses allegedly caused by the oil spills. Ibrahim Bouba, then of Botakert division of the Federal High Court in June of 2010, gave the judgement in favour of the Oguni people, awarding 17 billion Naira as compensation. SBDC appealed against the judgement up to the Supreme Court, however it lost. Joining us to discuss this is Namor Basi, he is an environmental activist, Celestina Kobari national coordinator of Oguni Solidarity Forum, and of course we have Reverend Father Edward Obie, he is a public affairs analyst, and he is also a representative of Naggond. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you. All right, great. So I am going to start with you Mr Kobari because you of course represent the Oguni people and I have been in several forests where this conversation about the payment of 45.9 billion Naira is being paid to the Oguni communities and some people think it's been a long time coming but there are also people who think that this is an insult on the communities. Being that, since 2010, 17 billion if you counted with interest should be over 45 billion but then again, what do I know? But tell me what you think as someone who has been fighting for the interests of the Oguni people. Well, I want to correct the impression that I am more Oguni than my two reverents. All of our Oguni people, we are fighting together. We are the 20th father of the Oguni today, Namor Basi is always there. So Oguni struggle is not a local struggle, we are all going. I have been said that for the 45 billion to some people it sounds so big considering the number of people in the Jama'a, a bobo community but if you weigh that with the losses that we have incurred as for loss of livelihood and lives, then you will see that that's a patriotic song that's just a slap on the wrist for sure. It's like taking my shed from me and you cut one tiny button and give back to me. That is exactly what has happened. If you go through UNEP report, you will see that that report is a death sentence and that's why life has become so short in Oguni. 45 billion as far as I'm concerned is nothing compared to what has happened to our people. However, if there is anything to celebrate about this judgment, it's the father for the first time, a Nigerian judge with his standard is grand and he fit to say, yes, you must pay this money. That's the only good news here because all what we've been seeing if you have been following up litigation with oil companies is that you will continue to bribe the judges until the litigants die but I guess that they are changing their position now because they are not an island. They have hair that cuts at the home country of Shell and London. Even in the U.S. in the case between Shell and the family of Shell that they started giving favorable judgment to community people so they don't want to look like they don't know what is happening in the world. So they are ready to celebrate. It's the father for the first time. We are hearing one good news from a court in Nigeria. Thank you. Interesting. Let me come to Nimmo because we are talking about climate change every day. I spoke to a professor from a university in Boston and we were talking about climate change and the wildfires in Turkey and the floods in India. We are also experiencing all kinds of climate changes in the different parts of the country. Here we are in Oguni, we are not just dealing with an oil spill but we are also dealing with a damage to the sources of revenue for these people. The sources of nature, the water, the farmlands literally everything has one way or the other been destroyed by this oil spill. Now when we talk about the issue of cleanup it's either it's being politicized or nothing is being done about it. But yes, money has now been paid. How about the cleanup? How about getting the people in those areas back to something that seems like normal? Is there a possibility? If we cannot get Mr Basi, let's go to Fadalbi. Fadalbi, can you help us to answer that question? Yes. Thank you, Mary Ann. You have touched upon something very important there. Climate change is a present reality and will continue to be present right up to the future. The wildfires that you are hearing about, the floods that you are hearing about are not only in those faraway places, they are also right here in Nigeria. The impact of climate change in Nigeria cannot be separated from, there's a direct correlation that can be made between the activities of organizations like Shell and the climate change incidents of global warming events even in Nigeria. Only recently about a week or a week and a half ago I was at a conference in Lagos where a research had directly tried the events in the northeast of Nigeria like the Lake Chad area with the oil and gas flaring that is going on in the Niger Delta. There are correlations that can be made at all times. And the fact that climate change is upon us, a little event like in the Niger Delta impacts not only Nigeria but the global atmosphere. And if the global atmosphere is affected or impacted anywhere in the world, it also becomes a problem here. So it is about time that organizations like this organizations Shell and other organizations that are bent on continuing the very unsustainable exploitation and use of fossil fuels even in this day and age in our life they should reconsider this and think of better alternatives that are being profiled all over the world. So let us not wait until we have reached two degrees. Let us start to make the preparations right now and give our people the adaptation mechanisms that they need to be able to cope with climate change and global warming as it occurs. The environment of the Niger Delta particularly in the area of the Niger Delta known as Fogoni land and all its many and varied communities remains impacted, remains subdued, remains already polluted for a generation and more people from that area will continue to suffer this impact. Somebody said to me today after they saw Goy community and the pollution that went on there several years ago they said this is only the beginning. Shell will pay more than triple of that and I believed him immediately. Okay well Nimbo Basi is back. Mr Basi I was asking a question before your network knocked you off. I was talking about the fact that climate change is it's becoming more and more real to us and the issue of the cleanup in Oguni land has either been politicized, used as a campaign tool but the reality is that nothing has happened. How do we get the people in those affected areas to have something close to at least a normal life if we do not start that cleanup anytime soon? And again is there really a possibility in the horizon with the attitude of Shell and our government to see a cleanup anytime soon? Well thank you for time of Shell and the government and the cleanup because the two are very closely intertwined. The cleanup has started, we cannot deny that actually but you can say that it's not been as extensive as expected at this time, not as fast as expected. We have not seen work beginning on complex sites as at this time and of course it's been the criticism that the emergency measures have not been taken, have not been done 10 years after the UNE report has been written. Now if the cleanup is politicized that is really sad because it's very unfair for anyone to play politics with other people's lives and this is the time not only to clean up Ogonilan but to begin the process of cleaning up the wider Nagy Delta because as we speak there are all spills on going somewhere in Nagy Delta and every, there are all spills that last up to one year. I'll give you an example. Your 01 Aurora 1 well offshore on those days caught fire blew up in April 2020 and that thing has not been attended to. There's still traces of spills and for satellite images this is on fire around there. And so when we have a situation where the entire region has become a sacrifice zone, we really need to worry and we need to put pressure on the government to wake up to its responsibility. Shell has already shown signs that they want to wash their hands of the of the communities that move offshore. That is something that should worry or that something that should work should be a wake up sign signal to our politicians. It's not enough to say where they're selling of their assets to local firms. No, they have to take care of their liabilities and they should not be left of the book just because they're moving somewhere else. This is really interesting. I was taking notes because I'm going to come back to you to ask who's responsibility it is. But let me swing back to Mr. Poppery. The Ogoni Solidarity Front and many other fronts in Ogonilan and in the Nagy Delta that are pushing for cleanup, especially the one in Ogonilan. What is the reception that you're getting in terms of government changing the tide of things? Because Nimmo has said that it's very slow. The pace of work is slow. At least there's been a start of sorts. But then we're looking at the timeframe and if it doesn't start early enough then of course 25 years down the line we will have children born into those communities and God knows what kinds of diseases or what kinds of problems that they're going to face whether it's ecological, whether it's health. I mean we do not know. But what are the Ogoni people doing aside from going to courts, aside from getting a shell to pay these monies? What are the Ogoni people doing to get their government a bit more involved? I'm not talking about the federal government. I'm talking about the river state government to push so that this cleanup is not just lip service but in actuality it is done for the benefit of your people. Well, you know the way politics is played in Nigeria today? The governor in power, in river state is a PDP governor. The government carrying out the cleanup is an APC government. Actually when this project started in 2016 the PDP people said that nothing was happening that it was a campaign gimmick. You know because it was a PDP government that received the report in 2011 and did not do anything. So when the APC government said we will claim they said that no, that nothing was happening. So the only belief that something was happening when they had that 380 million U.S. dollars was in an account and actually at the first 21 sites and paid contractors that was where they believed that there was money. So most recently... But do you also think that it's because there's no synergy because I really don't understand whether it's a PDP or APC government. If there was a synergy would there be a cause for doubt because if the federal government was liating with the state government for something that they're doing at their backyard would there not have been that clear... Would that doubt not have been cleared? No, I'm just... It's the dangerous nature of politics played in Nigeria especially in river states. Don't forget that Rotima Mechi is leading the APC in river states and Governor Mouike is leading the PDP. You know they are highly consigned but they can't meet, they are too parallelized. So that's it. If the PDP government we want to applaud what the APC is doing then you'll be giving credit to them. But in fairness to them now over 6 billion water contract was awarded in March this year and that water project is being done in partnership with the river states government minister of water resources. So that is the first energy that they are having. The second one is being expected in the area of citing a center for excellence. I'm aware that I've prepared written to the government to provide land for them so that they can commence fencing and possibly starting the building of a center for excellence. We have a new board in place and we have a new active project coordinator in place. You have a new minister in place too. So that will also change the way relationships are built. And so we look forward to having a better relationship. But our concern, it's not like what NIMU said is that water was tacked on an emergency measure like water should have come first. This is what we should have in a place where you have government that care for the people. As soon as they receive that report which I call a death sentence a state of emergency robin declared in Ogoni. Call it any name. You can call it the federal capital like the kind of name you call but the federal capital territory. Especially development because people were in a state of death. But because you have a situation where there is a total absence of government they turned death years to it. It is only now that they are beginning to have work contracts for the water. It shouldn't be so. I say community people are on them and we will make sure that we mount pressure on whoever, whether they are the local government whether they are the state or the federal government, we won't leave any stone on time. Back to you Father Albi. He's talking about accountability here. But I want to talk about responsibility in terms of governments at all levels because I remember for so long it has taken for us to even address or scratch the surface of this Ogoni cleanup and I've heard it for so long and Nagond and other NGOs of the nature of Nagond have been on this issue. I have been to so many sessions and fora where these issues are being discussed. So where is the sense of responsibility on the path of our leaders because if they were serious again I would make reference to a conversation that journalists had on this issue and many blame the insincerity on the path of our government to the reason why this spiel and the cleanup has taken forever to happen. Now monies have been released. Where is the sense of responsibility and sincerity on the part of our leaders? How do we also ensure that CSOs NGOs, how do you ensure that there's a follow through to make sure that everything is done to the latter and again politicians don't take over this particular situation? Well your fear is like my fear Mary and you know politicians may jump on the bandwagon now and begin to claim that this was their win and their gain etc. and begin to make do politics out of it. One thing worries me is that politicians in Nigeria have lost every sense of the dignity of the human person. They are in the business of politics not for any other reason except to aggrandize themselves and to make gain out of it. Now if they had any sense at all of the dignity of the human person they would know that for over half a century the people in this area have suffered the adverse effects the impacts of the oil and gas industry. And just when a research has come to light to prove that the things that we spoke about mostly in horse tones are actually true therefore they should be even more ready, more eager to take the bull by the horns and execute these projects that would bring relief to the people. You are talking of responsibility how else can a politician be responsible to his people except by doing those things that would bring life and abundant life to their people but this is what we haven't seen ten years of the of the UNEP report and we haven't seen anything happen or very little has happened. I was sitting in Bordeaux today and I saw a boat being loaded with seedlings of a mangrove to be planted in areas that they said they had cleaned up you know but how long will it take for those mangroves to grow to the stature of the mangroves that were there before that did all the work of you know robbing all kinds of toxic effluence from the industry also cleaning the waters and acting as a barrier to erosion and flood in that area and also as a spawning area for the fish that were always in that area spawning their little ones so it would take more than a generation and if you calculate all of that and put it all together then you can see why I have a worry that the present crop of politicians that we have in Nigeria do not have the wherewithal. When I say wherewithal I mean the ethical and the emotional and also the the responsibility wherewithal to be able to execute this and I do not mean mean it lightly when I say that I mean that they will need a different kind of politics in this country and particularly in this region a politics that is a policy a politics that seeks the good of the people before their own self aggrandizement. That is the kind of politics that we need in this region. That's a conversation for another day don't even get me started but let me go to Nima. Nima I know that you have been an activist you've spoken on issues of environment you know ecology and all of that and you raised an issue earlier on and I'm going to push that to you now but finally what is the future and the hope of these communities that are experiencing these oil spills and the degradation of the environment and don't forget Potakat in itself is also experiencing a form of degradation for years we have been talking about these suits in the atmosphere and another issue that's been politicized I mean really what do we go from here well I think that's a very broad question I would say that Nigeria as a whole is in a very desperate ecological situation the entire coastline is on that threat we heard from the recent climate change report that sea level rise that is put in motion is more or less irreversible is going to go on for hundreds of years and that is something to worry about that means those of those who are looking for seafront locations for their homes should think about building their houses on stilts or on pillars above the waters because the floods will certainly come now the kind of desperation that we see the Niger Delta and the communities with all the oil spill is very deep and complex and we should truly be worried it's alarming because when you find communities having a source of drinking water contaminated their farmlands contaminated and these things are just left there and corporations and government are busy blaming third parties and calling sabotage when there is no sabotage has been responsible as a way of avoiding action that should be taken then we should really see that the people are being betrayed the betrayal is deep and wide and you know it's looking at in the long term the low fortunes of the fossil fuel industry and the fact that the world is moving shifting away from fossil fuels and fossil fuel industry would not be the biggest income in the near future it's really a time for us to as Alessio said to declare a state of emergency in the entire Niger Delta otherwise we're going to have not just stranded assets but stranded communities and this would be a very sorry situation indeed you know when the UNE report was released in 2011 some of the locations near Lemi area had recovered pollution about 5 meters deep and that was very alarming that pollution has gone as deep as 5 meters but by the time some of those locations were cleaned up last year pollution had gone as deep as 10 meters which means that for every day that pollution is allowed to linger on and we're getting a deeper and deeper problem on our hand now the recent case that they called they shall agree to pay the people that pollution occurred in 1970 and it's not been cleaned up no matter what they say so you can imagine what the situation would be right now if they cleaned up way to begin at Ejama Ebu Bu after so many years that the pollution has been high depollution without a real clean up as well as the situation where the people would not only accept financial compensation which is just a symbolic thing but they should demand a thorough clean up of that location that has been like shells property since 1970 well it's unfortunately we're ending on a very gloomy note an uncertain note because we're not necessarily sure what the future holds but I want to say thank you he's an environmental activist I want to say thank you to Celestina Kmoburi he is obviously of the Oguni Solidarity Front and Father Eduardo B is of Nagon thank you gentlemen for being part of this conversation thank you alright, well we'll take a short break and when we come back we'll be talking about pensions for former governors is it something that we should strike out of our constitution Lagos, if you're a Lagotian you want to be part of this conversation stay with us