 Okay, the last room should be going about 510 seconds. Okay, and let's just make this an open forum discussion. So if anyone wants to raise their hand or just take themselves off a mute and ask a question, jump in and do it. But we're just going to run this as an open discussion. So, the live stream is up. Perfect. So the accord project has been around for a number of years now. I'm going to say it goes back right to 2016. And what's great about it is it's really getting a support from the commercial community, because the original founders of the accord project also have a commercial venture, which is called claws.io, where they're really trying to commercialize the accord project. And believe it or not, just within the past month, they were acquired by DocuSign. Everyone here is familiar with DocuSign and that's the big digital signature company. And I think the reason for that was that they recognize that, you know, executing blockchain smart contracts is a future, and being able to acquire a company that's really focused on that is really going to help their business. So, I think that's going to be great from the Linux Foundation perspective, because that'll give more resources to really get in there and be maintainers for the accord project. And so, if you're familiar with, you know, you might be familiar with open law, which is more of the consensus side version of this. The accord project is very much the same thing where you can go in and you can program contracts that will execute code. And everything is done via the blockchain and the main protocol that we're using for the accord project is hyperledger fabric. And it works really well and very seamlessly. One of the things I'll show you on my screen here is recently I drafted a accord project smart contract. And let me see if I can pull that up for you here. I'm going to go into maybe resources, template library, and I'm going to go down to this one that I just worked up recently which is this supply chain one let's see if I can find it here. I'm going to try and do this on the flies a little bit of a challenge also let's just see here one time payment. I don't see it right now, but I'll just kind of talk about it. So it's basically a letter of credit with an importer and exporter that allowed people to go ahead and have oh here it is. LOC that's that's my agreement right here. Looking for more of the large line of credit. You can see this supply agreement. And what I did was work with the accord project team, and also the cloud security alliance. And the cloud security alliance if anyone's familiar with them is, you know, all about security. And one of the hyperledger members DTCC is a member of the cloud security alliance as well. So what we're doing is we're actually taking this template and running some security tests against it. When it's built on hyperledger fabric. But this is based on a supply agreement, and there's a trade finance component here where there's an exporter and an importer. And the whole purpose behind this core project contract is to make sure that you know there's a letter of credit. That indicates that the importer is credit worthy. And so I'll go down and show you a little bit about the logic behind this. But then you'll also see that this is a cross border transaction, because you have one that's in Sweden, and another corporation that's out of Delaware. So we're going to go through and we're going to talk about, you know, ordering widgets. And here it's in Swedish Kronor is the currency. And then there's a lot of terms around acceptance modification and rejection that are a part of this agreement. Anything that's coming out of a market that's going on the ocean transports going to have a bill of lading so we've incorporated that into the agreement. And then there's also terms around acceptance and delivery, as well as the term of the agreement representations, limited warranty, things of that nature. And what I'll say is great about the accord project is, it is a hybrid between the legal community and the technology community. So what's great about it and Tom's an attorney, he can attest to this is you can take an attorney's agreement that normally would be having to be executed outside the bounds of the agreement only, and then take it into the accord project and then be able to create variables and create execution, you know, code that executes to actually fulfill on the needs of the contract. So, I really think that what we're looking at here is something that's going to be the future of contracting, even for all attorneys, and I think that's why DocuSign went ahead and acquired the commercial side of the accord project, really to be prepared for the future. So these terms in here like, you know, confidentiality, things like that, you're going to see those are going to be very well driven for attorneys, but they're not going to be so code driven. So we can go down and take a look at the code here, but, you know, know that this contract is a hybrid. So you might be familiar with you know any type of, let's say hyper ledger fabric, code execution, or even from the Ethereum side on smart contracting, but this is a hybrid between the two. And things like, you know, governing law and consent to jurisdiction, you know, that's another thing that's going to be legally driven, not code driven. But what we could do is come down into the template model. And what's great about the accord project is it'll actually render these nice diagrams showing you the variables and how the code's going to execute right in more of a visual format. So you can see, you know, things that we're doing that are based on IoT are like, you know, there's these sensor readings. If you see this variable up here, and then we'll have the ability to reject contract if the sensor reading hits a certain level that the temperature is too high that the goods are going to be damaged because of that temperature reading. Then we're also going to have a delivery response where that the importer is going to have to say, yeah, the goods are in good order. And if so, then it's going to go and say, okay, keep going. This contract is valid and we're going to pay on it. So there are going to be checks on the contract is, as you know, IoT sensors are going to, you know, maybe provide data more often than just a single reading so you might want to check that on a regular basis. And if it's on the ship, and it needs to be sent back, if the temperature goes above, what is the acceptable temperature you might want to turn the ship around, if it gets to that point. And then you can stuff around the sensor reading as well. And then if you look at it, all of these things that are defined in the contract always have to be done in a, you know, programming manner. So you look at these things like date time is a reference in the model and I'll go ahead and show you these reference models here as well. We've got strings, and everybody's familiar with strings on this call. Integers are defined just like you would in any code base. Things like string order. Period. That's another thing that's very challenging in the accord project and we've had a lot of discussion around time and periods and things like when somebody's on daylight savings time. How does that affect the smart contract, or how is it calculated with respect to whether or not not the contract is, you know, good performance or not a valid performance. The amount that's referenced to another model outside of the accord project. And the great thing about the team at the accord project is they've been working on building out a lot of these models. And I helped them to work on one that was related to the cryptocurrency side of the equation. So when you can reference a model, you don't have to reinvent the wheel for your code for a contract every time and you, you just need to know how to reference the models. Come down here other things you know so you see a lot of monetary stuff that's in here monetary amount. In my particular contract that I drafted here. You'll see that there are seven model dependencies that go into this agreement. And so we can look at this first one you know this is just strictly the contract itself. And I'll show you that you know if you want to actually create in a chord project contract you actually have to go in this namespace and make sure that it's, you know not already taken within the accord project, and then use that for your template. And the other thing I'll talk about too is, all of these templates are, you know, open source and available for anyone to grab and use. So if you want to go into this URL and look up this let letter of credit contract that I produced, or any other contract templates that are in there. Feel free to take those at your will modify them and use them for your own implementations. Again, which is going to you know be the way that this contract has to be executed. So we have to reference that model into this contract as well. We have to look at the geo country. So we talked about you know one party to this contract is actually based in Sweden, and the other contract party is based in United States. You can see this whole long laundry list of country codes, we can reference this model and pull it in. And we can look at things like you know country place, and even down to geo coordinates, because a lot of times sometimes things might be relevant to a certain latitude and longitude, or an address. So what you want to do is you want to just, you know leverage off the models that have already been created rather than reinvent the wheel. So I don't have to, you know reinvent the wheel. I just pull in this model into my contract and it runs as I would expect. We talked about money monetary amount. So, you know there's currency codes. And if we go down here and look for SCK will see, you know the Swedish Kroner down here see where I'm highlighting now, and be able to pull that in and we know exactly how currency is going to operate within the natural language smart contract. The other ones that I talked about were over here, you'll notice that you'll see eat for Ethereum dash EOS Bitcoin. All these other ones can be referenced in these natural language smart contracts, because we built the model around, you know using those digital currencies as well as what I'll say standard fiat currencies. This is one of the biggest challenges I see for smart contracting is lining up with contract timelines and expectations look like. So a period is you know, a number of X amount of time units within a given contract so you know you might say this contract is good for two years. The number of performance has to be done in three days, or if payments not received in two months, it's in default. So all those have to be defined, but then you also have to look at these temporal units over here as well. And, you know, make sure everybody's on the same page. And what I've talked about is, you know, potentially looking at UTC as the default for smart contracts. And what happens is, you know, it's not really natural to attorneys to define things around UTC. They're more used to saying okay well this contract is going to be executed in New York. So we're going to say, if you don't perform this by 5pm Eastern time on June 23, you're in default. You know, we just all understand that, you know, daylight savings time kicks in, and it's running during June. But for an actual smart contract you better code it in. Otherwise you're going to have a smart contract that's not going to work. The attorney is going to be liable for malpractice, because the intent of the parties was to have the thing done by 5pm Eastern time on June 23. But the way it was quoted, you know, let him have it on Sunday, and that caused the other party damages. So we kind of looked at period. And then temporal unit. So this pulls into the same type of thing as where you've got, you know, all these different seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks. And each one of these things need to be pulled in so the contract can work. And you actually don't have to build the whole code itself. And then the other thing that's good about the Accord project is everything stored on GitHub so you can see all the logic on GitHub. And then I'll show you, you know, this sample JSON over here. Sounds like somebody's got some background noise. Maybe we can just mute your host John so you can mute people as needed. Okay. I guess I'll just take a look here and see if I can mute. What does double rate mean. Double rate is a calculation. So it's going to be more so are you seeing that for a interest rate calculation. It was on your previous screen, two screens back. Yeah, double rate is a way to look at a calculation within a contract. So that you're getting the interest added to the contract. So a double rate would be a framework by which you're saying, okay, well, your interest that you're owing on this is now doubled as to what it used to be when you weren't under default. Does that make sense. No. So double rate would be, let's say a default, let's say a normal interest rate is 8%. But if you're in default, you're going to have to pay 16% because the rate of interest is doubled. Unless it's usury. Unless it's usury. And if it's usury, that's a very good point. And you know, that's a point that I brought up to all of the different smart contracting groups that I've been a part of. And in fact, one of the papers that I'm working on is talking about that exact thing is where there's a lot of discussion, you know, from the technology community where they're trying to look at more of code as law. But what happens is all code has to be compliant with whatever the law is of the jurisdiction in which the parties, you know, have, you know, subject matter jurisdiction. And so your point around, if the rate is usury is completely valid. So if you're executing a smart contract, and one of the parties is in a jurisdiction that has, you know, let's say 16% as a usury rate. Then the attorneys involved in the smart contract are going to have a problem, because now they've written an agreement which is, you know, illegal in that jurisdiction. So, you know, there's a lot more, you know, things to be considered when you're doing cross border or, you know, smart contracts that could be executed in any jurisdiction, because you need to understand that you have to comply with the law of the jurisdiction over which the parties have that over them. Does that make sense? Every jurisdiction where the parties are able to be contacted by the authorities, you have to comply with that jurisdiction. Thank you. Yep, no problem. So, you can just take a look at some of the sample JSON. Everything in the Accord project is really primarily based on JSON because it's a good development language for exporting out to hyperledger fabric. And that kind of covers that. Let me see if I can show you more of the code itself. Some of the markdown language. So if anyone wants to use any of the tools for the Accord project, reach out to me and Tom can weigh in on this as well. Is a lot of times, you know, they have good markdown tools for creating these contracts and it makes your life so much easier. I can jump in real quick. They've got a lot of work with markdowns, the basic language that they, the contracts are encoded in, which markdown is basically just as you all know, straight text with a few, you know, markings to eliminate, you know, whether it's a heading and whatnot. They have their own version of markdown, which I believe they call Cicero mark, which is basically complies with the markdown standard. But it's got two curly braces around each variable, which makes, which is a variable data, the placeholder for the variable data. And that's kind of their own standard created for Cicero project. Or for the Accord project, but they've also got tools. Most of them are command line tools. For example, converting markdown to a DocX file to be used in Word, converting markdown to a PDF. And actually they've got a tool, I believe it's finished. If it's not finished, it's very close to being finished, where you can create a PDF of your document. And it will have all of the logic and model information stored as metadata in the PDF. So you basically have a one-stop, I mean, you have to programmatically pull that metadata out of the PDF, but it's basically stored in there, which is huge. Sorry, I'm having trouble. My watch is talking to me. Yep. And you may want to jump it just, this might help clarify a little bit. I don't, that diagram, I think it may be in the start of the documentation, but there's like a triangle that's the common thing for Accord project. And there's three legs to the triangle. And one of the legs is the text that we're looking at now. And that is basically markdown text, whichever contract has it. And that's what us lawyers like to work with. And that's what you can, Accord can deal with. And they don't have to even deal with the logic. The model is another leg of it. And it's separate. It's a separate file, basically. And as John was showing you, you can import a lot of the models into yours if you've got a model for a company or a person or an address or whatever. You can do that. And basically the model is a schema language. It's got a particular formatting that simplified it. It's easy enough for even lawyers to understand. And it basically shows the elements of it. And the third leg of the. This kind of shows them all Cicero, Concerto and Ergo. Concertos are the model or the model language. Cicero is the actual template, which is basically markdown. Ergo is the actual language. That's kind of your smart contract language. It's a language that is hosted. It has to be compiled down to another language. In most cases, the one that is best on it is JavaScript. So you compile your Ergo and it basically goes to JavaScript. They're working on Java. They're working on Wasm assembly, WebAssembly language. And chain, I believe it compiles down to chain code to execute on Hyperledger. And I think they'll add, they want to add more things and more. I think they've looked at solidity, but I don't think they've made much really effort at this point, at least the team that I'm familiar with. There may be some others. Ergo is basically the gentleman writing his name is Jerome Simeon. He's a PhD in computer science and has been studying this a good while. He spent a lot of time working on the compiler. Ergo is a strongly typed language. It's got a lot of formalities that you can prove that it does what it's supposed to logically. It's, this is above my level of compiler design. But they felt like the strongly typed. You saw some of the types there with strings and double digits, integers and things like that. And you can get more sophisticated types going down, which would be a combined combination of types. It's a compact language and the syntax is pretty easy. I'm not sure a lot of lawyers are really going to be doing a lot of Ergo coding, but I mean, it's probably easier than Java or Java or something like that. But it is a full language. It can handle basically anything. And most of the communication with the outside world is what John had showed you through Jason. And it kind of works like a web page. A contract can receive a request and then it can emit a response. So for example, with your IOT device, your IOT device can send some Jason over the wire to the contract. And then the contract can take that and respond to, I mean, the response may be termination of the contract. The response may be, you know, call the boss or or something like that. So that's kind of the programming end of it. There's been a lot of design and refinement, especially with Ergo. That's got a lot of work been doing on it. And actually an interesting thing about the models concerto, which is the model library. It's not really that much code as it is a way of describing the schema and describing the various elements say like an address is consisted of a straight address email and that type of thing. It's basically more of a schema. And Peter Hunt, who was one of the, the main developers in the core product, he was the one that created claws and then from claws accord projects spun off. But he recently released actually with just the last few days, a separate library which I can't remember the exact name, but is a UK library a schema for legislation in the UK. That basically takes the concerto models and tries to present a schema for legislative drafting and the idea of getting into rules as code type of thing. And so I think there's going to be, as John said, huge community hopefully developing around these models that can take the schema and apply it to the contract or apply it to you know whatever's behind the contract. And I did notice somebody Sandy had asked about concepts such as Oracle notaries, the quarter provides a core project does not get into that and I mean it can do a request and reach out to an Oracle reach out to a notary. We're looking at signatures now digital signatures. And part of the idea is to remain as agnostic about it as we can be. So it may be the, and there'll probably be a model that's developing as to what a signature is, of course, DocuSign is, and I believe DocuSign has some sort of hash that when you do your little signature thing that can be a hash or a little certificate there. And there may be some way to store a hash with a contract and of course, that could be part of the blockchain you sign your contract. And then through Ergo and the model you send a notation out to either Ethereum or Bitcoin or even hyper ledger. It's a new signed at a particular date and that's your proof that it was signed. And, but again the core project is trying to be as agnostic as they can about the platform, the blockchain implementation signature implementation. They're just mainly concentrating on providing the interface between the legal language and the templates and having a system of logic built into it that can interact with other things. And the model schema that can help provide models to base either contracts or you can carry it outside the contracts. Hey, Tom, can I jump in for a kick cushion, please? Sure. Okay. This is Sandy here. Thank you for picking up my question. So, well, this sounds really interesting to me. I mean definitely makes sense to have like a DSL based thing and definitely like a natural language thing. I was actually looking at like a snippet. So it seems like you can definitely write something in, you know, fairly easily understandable language. One of the situations I want to bring up here. How do you, like, how do you reach decision on, like, like, you know, John was saying earlier too and you were saying to that, obviously you got to, you can go by code is a law, you've got to go with what the law is in the jurisdiction, right? Right. And so, where do you draw the lines and how do you decide that what becomes a part of the framework because, like, if you want to expand this to different places, different, you know, constituencies and different regions. Even basic things like what the docusign is accepted as a, as a legit, you know, signature or not and some emails are accepted as official signatures, and then bought some of the other places they don't. So, how do you make that as a part of the framework. And then second question, I'm just going to throw the question out there, you can answer that later, is that like you mentioned, I guess the intention here is to basically make this a blockchain agnostic platform. And I believe you mentioned earlier that you're trying to make this available on things like Kota and then Ethereum and using solidity and, and then obviously have a ledger at least three main right now right. So it seems like to me that one of the things we're trying to do is to have a compiler basically take this, you know, natural language in DSL thing and then compile that or transpile that into something that those specific block teams can understand and execute. Correct. So, so it may be a phased approach, but I guess that's where we're trying to go with this project correct. Yeah, and I can jump in here and then john can maybe jump in where I'm going to do reverse order. The compiler is specifically designed to be able to compile into a different language, whether that's JavaScript, solidity. I'm not sure what quarter uses or hyper ledger uses chain code. And I believe chain code even if I, I'm not as familiar with hyper ledgers you guys I think it's basically Java isn't it underneath or a limited portion of Java maybe. Yeah, it's just a way they, you know, quarter uses Java and Kotlin. So I think the, the actual text would be text I mean you can do a hash of the text and store that hash and the air go logic could actually be compiled so you could compile I think I've already got this ability you can compile it down to chain code. So that can execute within hyper ledger as chain code. So, for example, I see you do the same thing to add I mean if you want to figure an interest rate that the interest rate is a certain type of, you know, thing that adds it together and goes from there. So it's designed to be compiled down. I don't know. Now Jerome is doing some of the work to compile it. You know, get the compiler put together, but, and I guess other people with different projects would kind of have to chip in to help add the, you know, specific implementation other than the more generic ones. Now with the other thing about and John mentioned this to the question about well as an email valid as a, you know, a signature online is the digital signature the same as a written signature. I know I'm in North Carolina United States. And we've got kind of an archaic notary law that you have to, you know, notary has to see the person and how do you notarize it. I would say those are more legal questions. Now in a regular legal contract of John and I did a contract. Probably some one of the clauses we would put in there would be some sort of choice of law or choice of jurisdiction to say that this contract is going to be interpreted under the law of North Carolina. And if there's a dispute it will be handled in the courts of North Carolina. Now there's a whole course that you can take in law school about choice of law. And especially when you get the international domain it gets even more complicated. I don't know how you can solve that. Technically, with code John may have some ideas about that I think you're stuck with the law where it is and you basically have to if you're going to call in the law you have to call in some sort of jurisdiction and some sort of particular law. Unless it is something that can be executed programmatically and then it's basically a done deal without the law I mean you may have legal implications that when it does something that you didn't really want it to do or expected to do how you're going to deal with that but as far as it doing something I mean that that's kind of a different thing in the legal question. John before you jump in just one follow up question on that with time. Are there any existing presidents where you actually use code as law. Not that I could I know there's a lot of work. There is. Well Jason Morris and Morris I believe his name is really interested in it and I believe in New Zealand or Australia or both they have some code as basically rules that are could be implemented as law and the rules can also be executed on a rule engine. I don't know if they're actually enacted as law but I do know that they're doing a lot of work in that and there's a lot of they call it computational law there's a lot of research and writing in the area about can you just enact laws as code and basically they're looking at rule based systems can you act enact a rule based system because law is rules where you know instead of text as rules you've got actual something that can be executed. But I don't and I don't believe United States is kind of close to doing anything like that and I don't know of any jurisdiction except Australia and New Zealand I think seems to be the ones that are leading it the most. Yeah, so I'll just jump in here and say that this code is law or what I'll say blockchain smart contracts is in its complete infancy at this point. In fact, even on the accord project I know Tom has gotten in the channel. I worked with the core project to set up a specific channel just around case law related to, you know, any type of natural language smart contracts but at this point that case lies. You know, pretty much non existent I haven't run across case law interpreting these, you know, smart contracts but there will be case law that will come out in the next few years, as people get more comfortable with the technology and use it. But realistically, as Tom says you can define jurisdiction you can define choice of law. But it also has to fall back to the attorney once again because, you know, although I can show you this on the screen here you see where I highlight these variables. Like Tom talked about you know double quarterly brackets and things like that to call out the variables, but the attorney, who is always representing a client has to be an expert in the subject matter on which they're advising a client. So if this is an international letter of credit type application like the one that I developed there, the attorneys better understand international law and, you know, treaties between Sweden and the United States and, you know, how that interpretation of the law comes into play, and not just develop a smart contract thinking okay well we can make it work like this because we can develop the code. So I think what's going to happen with this you know additional interest by docusign in clause and you know helping out the Accord project of course is they're going to make it more abstract for the attorneys where the attorneys will be more in the natural language portion of this and maybe just you know using the markup language to tag certain things. But ultimately there's going to have to be you know case law and precedent that say, you know who who is responsible if there's an error in the code, even though the attorney wrote it up correctly from what I'll say the natural language, and if we go back and think about the Dow hack, you know there's unintended consequences that happen there. And it's the same thing if there's something unintended that happens in the code execution. There's going to have to be you know a lot of precedent and case law and, you know malpractice claims that bear out who is responsible for that. Yeah, go ahead. embedded in in your templates, like in terms of like kind of going back on the same line of, you know defining jurisdiction and so forth. And applying jurisdiction to the definition of smart contract and blockchain, you know because like across the US, you've got about 10 different states with different vernaculars and different definitions so how do you sort of resolve or solve for that. Yeah, that's a perfect question so the answer is, you have to have an attorney that's, you know, capable of writing up an agreement that's valid in the two parties jurisdictions or if it's even a multi party jurisdictions even going to be more complicated than that, and use you know, they have to be licensed in the jurisdiction in which the contract could be interpreted. So what happens is you have to have really some good counsel that could write up an agreement that's going to be valid in the jurisdiction of which has the authority over the parties. But all of that language is going to have to be you know well defined, but jurisdiction usually comes into play when somebody files suit against the other party. And there's not really any way built into the accord project contract to file suit with a court of law and a jurisdiction. So it's more of, you know that portion of the contract would be just strictly natural language, and then the attorney would take action based on a default, and then they would go ahead and you know prosecute the action and say okay well this agreement would be handled this way in accordance with the law of, you know, Colorado, I'm going to use Colorado as an example, and it didn't happen so now we're going to court and we're going to resolve this and a judge is going to make the ruin. Tom, if you want to add to that feel free to jump in and do so. Yeah I would say, and again those are like legal problems like for example john and I could do a contract. And we might say it's Colorado law applies and I'm in North Carolina. Something went wrong I could sue him here in North Carolina and the judge may look at it and said North Carolina doesn't have jurisdiction that's a Colorado problem. Or, and this happens quite often is a North Carolina judge could look at it and say yeah we've got jurisdiction we'll hear it, but the contract says that Colorado law applies. So we're going to apply Colorado law. So the attorney see I mean I'm North Carolina law lawyer but I would have to look into the Colorado law to apply to that particular contract. It's kind of almost handled outside the contract sometimes in a way it's hard to put it in the I mean a well drafted contract with good lawyers on both sides you're going to know if something goes wrong where that case is going to end up where it's going to end up and what law is going to, you know apply trouble is most times it's not good lawyers on both sides, and the contract just there and it's a lot of wrangling decide you know where the case is heard and what law applies. Yeah, and even there Tom you could have diversity of citizenship, could wind up in federal court, or you could have removal jurisdiction where one party wants to take it to where they feel is a better venue. So you know those are a lot of legal challenge questions that are going to come into play. But I think what I want to get across the group is, you know, attorneys that want to play in the field of smart contracts have a lot more issues to contend with than just what's written in the agreement, especially if there's code execution that's going on behind the scenes. So it's really going to be an emerging practice area. And I think that they'll probably have you know large firms will have, you know, technical staff that will handle smart contracts. You know, that are both adept in the technology as well as in the law to really help those things, you know, happen. But I think that DocuSign is going to really be a good purveyor of getting some adoption going here because of how many millions of people already have DocuSign accounts and are familiar with the digital signature process. All right, let's take a look here if we have any other questions. Tom do you see anything in here that we should address. Just the jurisdiction things which we've kind of gone into. And I guess what I would like to do is just, you know, anyone who wants to get involved with the Accord project. Feel free to reach out to myself or to Tom and I'll go ahead and put in my email here. I did see one part their question about actual users of the Accord contracts. Accord project contracts. I think the only one maybe that I really know of is one of our members. He's an Australian. And he's got a platform that is based on Hyperledger actually the handles Australian real estate contracts. In Australia, all real estate contracts are basically the same contract. So it's, it's pretty easy to do a template. And they've got a system that basically lets you fill out the variable, you know, the buyer or seller contract price and that type of thing. I'm a platform it handles signatures they have a way. I love it where you kind of take a picture with a signature or something like that to verify it. And basically everything saved to Hyperledger so you've got a Hyperledger you've got a record of when the contract was entered into who it entered into it when it was signed and that's I think he's pretty successful with it and although you may know of others John but I don't know anyone else at this point that actually is using it in real life. So when you say like they're saving it to Hyperledger. What about like interoperability and interaction with like other like legal storage softwares like I manage. They could say share based I mean the text of it they could definitely you know save and I manage or something like that, because it would just be like any other written contract basically to tell you the truth that I'm not 100% sure the advantage to storing it other than you've got a clear record public record or semi public record that this contract was executed and such and such a day and these are the terms and and whatnot it provides an additional security but it's like he said that you could print it off for download either PDF or I don't know if he allows Word document I think he does to something that you would put then and I mean and that's the way like the law firm if they were involved with that that's where they would store it probably. Yeah, interoperability. If you're familiar with Hyperledger cactus, you know they're focused on interoperability. And, you know, there's not going to be one blockchain rule them all it's going to be you know interoperability is going to come into play across the board. But anything that you could tie in with hyperledger fabric should be able to be tied into an accord project natural language smart contract. So we had one already about litigation, and then I saw that Rowe is on the call here Rowe you want to add anything about your work as well. I don't know if he's still on the call or not. Hey John. Hey everybody. Well, really, I'm participating with john as part of the cloud security alliance. As I mentioned earlier, I have actually have a colleague on the call as well Stefano. This is, and I, we just recently released a white paper where we're looking at using the smart contracts as part of a technology solution and talent marketplace. I just read a message from one of the CSA members that there seems to be a problem with the download. But we'll get that corrected and get you all a link. You want to read it's a pretty ambitious project I think but yeah, with the work that the, the accord project is doing as well as others I think it's, I think it's going to become a reality quite soon hopefully. It's great work you guys are doing at the core project and not only a fan that if I had a little more time probably participate and who knows I probably will. Perfect thanks for I will appreciate you weighing in on that. And I also see Mike Novak, you're on the call. Anything that you want to weigh in on I know you're always great with the most innovative questions and interesting topic. Yeah, no thanks john so yeah no this is very interesting I've heard of the project I haven't spent much time with it yet so this is my impetus to get more involved with it. I think Tom answers most of the questions correctly that, you know, the smart contract will not solve legal procedure problems, it merely enhances them. Right. Yep. And like when you were talking about before with usery, you know I would say hypothetically, I could have an external function call that figures that out. Okay, but would it stand up in court I don't know I'm not a lawyer I don't play one on TV. Yeah, I'm excited to see how this moves forward because certainly there's a lot of interest in it. But as a emerging technology questions I have are great what's it going to look like in five years in 50 years. Oh yeah I have my mortgage legal document it's on that thing called. Now court whatever happened to that oh we don't have that structure anymore. It was a corrupted you know. So anyway, I don't have anything terribly pointed just a lot of open ended questions. Yeah, I think you bring up a good point on that is you know, let's make sure that whatever blockchain it gets deployed on is going to have longevity to it. You know, even myself looking at things like click and recorders and recording mortgage documents. If they adopt a blockchain system let's make sure that that system has durability in it. Not something that's going to be gone in 10 years and the blockchain is not supported. And then the other thing you reference which I think is great and that's a good lead in for me is around the oracles. Yes, and one of the things that I looked at to Mike is that. Let's just use your mortgage example and Tom will play way in on this as well as if I'm going to foreclose on a mortgage. I need to make sure that a you're not have filed for federal bankruptcy protection. And so I need to check with the pacer system to make sure that there's no filing on file with that. And that you file bankruptcy because you can't violate the automatic stay under the bankruptcy code. And then I also have to look at to make sure you're not on active military duty, because I cannot pull your property as well if you're on active military duty. So, you know, even though these smart contracts could theoretically go off into the sunset and pull back title to a property by virtue of foreclosure using a smart contract. You're violating the law because you're not checking these oracles that tell you you better stop and get relief from the bankruptcy code court, or you need to wait till you know, you get relief that the person on active military duty you can proceed against them. And that's something I expect soon because you know I look at things like cryptocurrency we're just now seen regulators look at it more seriously like okay what's going to happen if. Well, with smart contracts I anticipate a judge sometime soon will number one have to decide, can I admit this in court. Correct. You know is it even is it legally binding. And when I talk with my customers when I talk at conferences. It's somewhat of a sarcastic comment but it's true and Tom correct me if I'm wrong, but I say yeah smart contracts, they're neither intelligent nor legally binding. Instead of that there's smart contracts, which is my chord likes the language that judges are familiar with and I mean, I remember back when I was looking into solidity and stuff more you'd hear all the discussions. You know where on earth are you going to explain the solidity code to a judge and what judge is going to have the patient to listen patients to listen to you and, and they're not probably the answer. And getting back to the verification that John was pointing out though one of the uses that the core project is affiliated with clause that just got bought by docusigned but one of the uses is verification for a lot of things. I have examples. And actually I haven't seen the whole thing, but for example an employment application or something where as part of the smart contract it goes out and pulls a credit check or pull something like that, or another one that I think would be very useful is for sharing instructions that they've got an ACH component that will actually verify that the bank account bank number is correct and all that and that's handled through the logic and and code of the smart contract. For example, if you could put in the foreclosure documents the foreclosures proceeding, you know, check pacer to see if there's a bankruptcy, you know, check whatever else things you need to and we'll see if your bank that deals with a lot of jurisdiction then you just say, call a lawyer because you call a lawyer on the ground to do this thing. Yeah, I mean that's where, you know, I have talked with some lawyers, and I try and use the analogy more of a docket, where, you know, the blockchain is the docket it's not necessarily it doesn't have to have the mortgage, the legal contract physically on the blockchain, I could just use it as a docket and say yeah it says here at this date and time that went on somewhere else. So I can authenticate that thing, that action, whatever it may be did occur, but it doesn't mean I have to necessarily put a contract on a blockchain ledger period right. And that's definitely valuable because there's a lot of legal disputes that revolve around the time or the order that something, you know, did person a do this before or vice versa or whatever and basically those are the evidentiary questions that you're spending time in your trial saying what's the evidence how can I prove this and if you got in a blockchain it's a done deal you don't have to do anything it's, you know, it's there. And that's where again the smart contract comes in handy where, you know, from a cost savings perspective as a business. Do I necessarily need or want to hire a lawyer or a law clerk to look through those 300 volumes of hard copy at X amount per hour, or could I have a smart contract initiate that search electronically. In less time for less cost and present that to the lawyer and say here Tom, here's the answer to your question, but then it's the lawyer who says fine now I take this, and now I can create a contract with that data verified and validated, and it's been annotated on and so forth. Right. So that's where I see smart contracts being more practical useful at this point in time, rather than putting a contract on to a blockchain. And that's, you know, so I don't know what do you think about that john I mean, have you had with this project. Has that been considered is it more the case of we want to encapsulate this legal document and store it on a blockchain. I think it's all being discovered and innovation is always going to take two steps forward one step back. And what I'm trying to look at is what is the maximum amount of automation that can actually be incorporated. That's legally viable. And I think that the legal viability will go up over time, but now it's very challenging that you don't get yourself in the weeds are in the hot water because you're being too innovative, and you're getting ahead in your logic. So that's one of what the jurisdiction allows for. So that's that's really the key I see at this point. Okay everyone, well I think that we're coming up at the top of the hour here, and I always want to be respectful of everyone's time this was scheduled for one hour. If anyone wants to reconvene. Feel free to reach out to myself, or Tom directly, and we're both active and engaged in the top hyper ledger accord project technical working group, and we would welcome anyone from this call that wants to join us there. So at this point I'm going to call it good. And I hope everyone has a great rest of your day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.