 Hi, and welcome to today's Healthy Marriage. I'm your host, Sarlene Lammers, Executive Director for Great Marriages for Sheboygan County. Today I'd like to welcome our guest, the Honorable Catherine Delahunt. She's a municipal court judge for the city of Sheboygan in the village of Kohler. Our topic for today is Families in the Legal System. Hi, Katie. Hello. Welcome to our show. Thank you for having me today. Glad to be here. Can you tell us a little bit about what a municipal court judge people may not be familiar with what that is? Okay. In the municipal court, it is the city ordinance violations and traffic violations that occur either in the city of Sheboygan or the village of Kohler. And these are all cases that are initiated by the police departments. So they're always the plaintiffs, and then the defendants are citizens in the community or outside of the community coming through the community. And then maybe they have a ticket. Right. So the police will issue a citation, and that begins the case. And then the defendants respond with a plea at their plea hearing or prior to that they can mail in a response or show up for their initial appearance date. And their plea of guilty, no contestor or not guilty. And that's the first time I may see somebody is at their initial appearance later on if they plead not guilty and they're unable to come up with a resolution with the prosecuting attorney, whether it's the city or the village, then they'll be back in front of me for a trial. Okay. And how long have you been doing this? It's almost five years, 2006. And prior to that, and even now, you also have a law practice? Correct. Right. I'm an attorney and was licensed in 1986 in Illinois first and practiced there for the state's attorney's office, defending Cook County officials when they were sued. And so I had municipal law background, and then from there I moved to the Milwaukee area and practiced with a private firm. And then opened my own practice later on in McWan and then moved up here. Okay. So what types of services, legal services, do you provide that are related to families? In my private practice, it would be mostly the guardian at Lightham or guardian work and divorce work actually. And it's a bit ironic because as a judge now, I do marry people on a pretty regular basis. And I think, you know, as you know, one of the reasons we met each other is because if I felt an obligation, if I'm going to facilitate a wedding or a marriage, I want to make sure it's going to be successful because I have seen unsuccessful marriages in my private practice. And I think sometimes that could be avoided. I know it could be. And sometimes people just need a little help or guidance and your organization is very good at providing that in our community. And that speaks to the importance of pre-marriage education, which is what you came to the conclusion on your own just, I guess, through seeing the divorces? Correct. I, you know, when people have a civil wedding, there aren't any requirements really besides the legal requirements of, you know, how long they have maybe been previous divorce, they can't be related, you know, these things. But not any guidance on getting, even talking with their spouse about issues that can crop up and really create havoc in a marriage. So sometimes if you go through a church wedding, the church will require you to go through some education about financing and what are you going to do with your kids and, you know, what, those kinds of things that can cause disharmony in a relationship. So you marry people and you also do divorces in your practice? But then do you do, you said litigation of some type? Right. Regarding Lightham, probably some people don't know what that is. And do you do mediation also? Correct. I, well, years ago in the Chicago area actually started first getting, I was trained as a mediator through a organization through the Chicago Bar Association, which deals with families, realizing that when you have a court case, oftentimes when a judge comes in and gives their disposition, they are deciding what is best for the parties. And oftentimes in a family, it's maybe better if they come up with their own solution. So mediation facilitates that. And that organization was called Neighborhood Justice, but court cases would be referred over to mediators in the hopes that, as a family, they could come up with a solution or maybe they would be neighbors. But people who had to, after the court date, try to live in harmony with each other and not continually have more issues. And so with that, I started mediation and that is a great skill to have, which I've transferred over to my litigation. I've always been a litigator and that means an attorney who goes to court versus maybe a business lawyer who is going to work on contracts for people exclusively and really never go to court. There are many different kinds of attorneys. So litigation has been what I have been doing for my career. Can you use the skills as a family mediator in your role as judge? Oh, definitely. And that is, I try to talk to people even after I give my disposition about what they can do after they leave the courtroom. What are some solutions here because it's evident that things are going to be antagonistic after they leave and that's not a good, healthy thing for them or the community. And they need to move on in a positive direction. And so I do try to help them. I throw out the questions or the things that I'm hoping they'll start thinking about on how they're going to get this resolved, totally resolved, not just this little piece. Is there any type of follow-up when you see people in court as the judge and there are family issues? Is there follow-up to see if the families are having success or do they end up back in your courtroom? I guess the follow-up that I would see is if I see a repeat offense. So it would be negative follow-up? Yeah, it would be not the preventative what you're hoping for. And that is a difficult thing. The wonderful thing about a municipal court in a community is that you have one judge then who does see these same things, though instead of going before many judges each time they appear, it's not caught that this is repetitive issues. So there might be times when I see that something isn't getting resolved, that people haven't figured it out. So I may order a no-contact order, meaning those people should, they just are not getting along. When they see each other, they both independently might be wonderful people. But unfortunately, when they are together, it's not a good situation and they really need to avoid each other because they're unable to figure out how to live together or live next to each other or near each other without a problem. So I'll do something like that to help nudge them into a successful relationship. So in dealing with cases with juveniles, then what has been your experience with how active a role the parents play in the life of their child? This has been something that has changed over the time that I took on this job. When I first started the municipal court and I did start the court here in our community, prior to my appointment as the municipal court judge, there was a no-municipal court. So we started up and I received cases that normally would have gone to the circuit court. And I hear, because Sheboygan is such a large community in our county, I hear about 42% of the entire county's traffic or ordinance violation cases. So I see a lot of people from the county, actually. And the thing that I noticed, and it was starkly apparent at first, was that juveniles would show up 14, even 13-year-olds, without a parent along. And where is your parent? Where are your parents right now? Oh, they're watching TV. And I was shocked. I couldn't believe that a parent didn't feel the obligation to be there, or the interest, or, you know, but watching TV or fixing a car were not legitimate, valid excuses for me for why the parent shouldn't be there. So I have a phone on my bench and I would say, okay, what's their phone number and call and say we're holding the case until you can come over. So I started that and now every juvenile comes with a parent and if they don't, our clerk, you know, does get the parent on the phone right away and advise them that they should be coming over. Parents play an interesting role in court because on the one hand, they need to take responsibility. We all hear this. They being the parent. Oh, okay, the parent. Yeah, the parent is responsible for their child at their juvenile and while there's the saying, you know, it takes a village to raise a child, it has to start with the parents and the parents need to be there with their child, helping their child, figuring out the system or figuring out what they've done wrong, if they've done something wrong, you know, and being there to help. So I first have noticed many parents don't feel that it's their responsibility or they feel like they shouldn't be involved. I mean, I don't know exactly what they're thinking, but they're just kind of watching things instead of being an active participant and helping their child. And there's kind of two things here that I want to try to get out. One is that with violence in the courtrooms that you hear about, you know, we need bailiffs in our courtroom because sometimes the parties act up and there's, you know, people who are injured in court. The two places where that occurs most is not what most people think, you know, criminal defendants know it's in divorce cases where there are very heated emotions and in juvenile cases. And part of the issue with the juvenile cases is parents will try to defend their child or stick up for their child or kind of help their child be in denial about what they did to the point where even though the juvenile is sitting there saying, yeah, I did this, the parent says, no way, not my child. They could not have done this. And it really sends kind of the wrong message to the child. As a parent, I'm hoping parents will be there to help the child take responsibility for their actions. If they did do something, take responsibility. Yes, you're a child and children are allowed and even adults to goof up. We all do. We're not perfect for human. So we make mistakes. That's fine. Take responsibility for the mistake. You know, pay your fine or do what you need to do. Do some community service. Give back to the community for the error you made and then move on with your life. But so many parents to the point where, you know, in courtrooms judges are being shot or, you know, other court personnel are being injured. Parents, oh, you know, it's their baby and they want to defend that child or, you know, they think that by sticking up for that child and trying to prove their innocence that that they're doing the child a favor because they want to try to minimize the consequences to the child. But I think we all know consequences help us learn things. And the thing that a child learns when their parent sticks up for them and tries to help them avoid consequences is they repeat the behavior then. I was just going to ask you, so then you see those people back in court? Most definitely. And maybe because they didn't serve the consequence for the first one, now we have a larger consequence for a greater action? Definitely. You know, you most often see this in the underage alcohol cases. You'll have a child, you know, an underage person come in and they have their consequence, but maybe they've, you know, minimized it and it doesn't help. You know, what I like to see and with juveniles too, studies show that they need immediate consequences. That's the way their brain works. It's wired that way. So I can't give an immediate consequence. I'm seeing them several weeks after the incident. So the best thing that can occur is for parents to give consequences. And the vast majority of parents, vast majority, give no consequence to their child. It amazes me that there isn't, you know, and they say, well, what was I supposed to do? Well, don't you pay for their cell phone? Don't you, you know, provide them their car? Oh, well, if I took their car, then I would have to drive them around. Okay. That's okay, isn't it? You know, it's taking responsibility. And for an underage alcohol, for instance, there's a, they have their license taken away by the court. And if I see, you know, that a parent has given consequences, I have a range of penalty. I don't need to be the one then, you know, as the community coming down on the child. I don't need to give a higher consequence because I understand the child has had a consequence. The parents are on top of it. They're, you know, taking their car, they're grounding them or, you know, whatever it is. But it is surprising how many parents, for some reason, think that they don't have the ability to do that. And maybe you can even speak to this. I sometimes think, especially in divorced homes or homes where the parents never married, that they're afraid that they might offend the child to the point where the child, you know, requests that they no longer have visitation with that parent. So it's almost like the child is in charge, some 13 or 14 year old. I've had the children that age tell me, well, he can't tell me what to do. And I'm like, really, I thought you lived in his home. You know, who runs the house? I don't understand that. So I don't know, you know, we do see evidence of that when people are on the second marriage, it happens a lot. And there are children from a previous marriage, and, you know, we have the visitation and trying to bring his, hers, and ours together. The parents try to be friend. There are children instead of being a parent because they want them to like them. They have limited time with them, which we understand, you know, and you want that limited time to be good. But you also need to be a parent because what happens is that ends up causing more conflict in the end. And especially I see it when there's one parent who wants to be the friend and one parent who wants to discipline. And so they're not on the same page. And the poor child is sitting there going, you know, what's the message I'm supposed to take away from this? Well, it leads to confusion. And then it leads to the child playing one parent against the other. So we talk on that topic specifically when we're talking to second marriages or other marriages, third, perhaps, that you have to be consistent with the discipline. You have to be on the same page, talk about it ahead of time, know how you're going to discipline for certain actions. Of course, you can't say every action that might occur and how you will discipline. But to come together and to support each other, you know, to that child when you're a discipline, so that you are on the same page and they can't use that as a wedge against the two of you. I think it's important that people realize even if they are divorced, you're still a family, actually. And you have to actually function like a unified family instead of, you know, it's two separate things here. I think that makes a big difference if the message sent is clear to the child, you know, because otherwise I think they are in denial themselves because they're hearing it from their parent. Well, that parent said it was okay. And that happens with retail theft as well. You know, that's the other time I'll see families. And again, sometimes that the retail theft or the disorderly conducts where a parent is actually modeling really bad behavior. So the parent is actually in on the theft, you know, they're having the, you know, hiding the stuff underneath the child on the seat or, you know, doing things that the child has to realize that something's amiss and they're seeing this or, you know, the parent who uses derogatory terms to others in the community. That's a disorderly conduct. And the child hears this and may mimic it. And, you know, they're not getting the clear message from parents as to what's appropriate or not appropriate because they're seeing it. Right. Do you see a correlation between juveniles that end up in the court and families that are intact or maybe broken families or not intact families? Well, I don't always know whether, you know, a family is together or not. I can tell you that when I see both parents show up for a case, I know that there are parents, you know, involved and supporting that child. Does that happen often? That does not happen that often. I would like to see it much more often. And it's very nice to see, and again, sometimes our parents who are divorced, where they'll come, both parents will be there. And that tells, that sends a huge message to me anyway. And I'm sure the child that they're working together and, you know, this is going, they're going, they're behind you. And, you know, you need to get through this. But, you know, they're supported. I think it is difficult with the single-parent homes. A lot of times parents, and I see this in the ages like 15, 16, 17, I have meant to run some statistics, but I swear there's a huge spike at that age in kids who get in trouble. And it's, I think, a phenomena because before that time, when children are maybe in middle school and grade school, the parents all know each other. You know who your children are doing things with. And then they get a driver's license or are with kids who have driver's licenses and they take off and the parents don't think it's their business or something, but they are doing zero follow-up on where the child is going. And so they learn, you know, they trust their child. It's the first time out. And all of a sudden, oops, I didn't expect them, you know, to do whatever they did. And invariably, I said, well, where did you think, you know, they were? Well, I didn't know. I had no idea where my child was going tonight, just out. And that is something I know the Sheboyton School District has now offered a parent network phone directory. So you can ask your child, where are they going? And then you can look that parents phone number up because, of course, if you call your child on your cell phone, they could be anywhere. You want to call that phone number and say, hi, my son or daughter said they're, you know, going to be over at your home tonight. Just want to make sure you're home and, you know, you are aware that they're, you know, people are coming over. Great, you know, it's just communication, I think, that would really help those kids stay out of trouble because they're, you know, invariably all they're good kids. It's just that now they've been given the freedom maybe or the ability to land themselves in a bad situation and in trouble and most teens are not going to be the one to say, oh, I can't go. I have to, you know, drop me off at home. It's better if they can blame it on their parents and say, you know, my parent is going to be calling. So I better be at that person's house with a parent there or, you know, I know I'll get in trouble. But, you know, we talk about that great marriage is also that you, even if you get divorced, you're still connected. You're connected through that child and people say, well, yeah, till they're 18 or out of school, but really it's for your life. You're connected as a couple and, you know, for the life of your child. And that means after graduation and it means when they get married and when you have grandchildren and for special anniversary parties and birthday parties and you're connected to that person forever. So how do we get along and how do we make this work when we have a second marriage because you bring all of that and you don't divorce it and let it go and move on. It comes with you to a certain extent. So then how do we make that work? And that's why we see the divorce rate in second marriages is a little higher than even first marriages. And then third marriage is even higher yet because we don't divorce problems. We don't divorce people. You know, they still stay with us, right? And we bring them into our new relationships and it's challenging. And it's interesting to see that. It is. It takes, you know, I think it takes a lot more effort because the parents have to be very clear, especially for these older, you know, children. Where are they supposed to be? You know, they're supposed to be with me tonight. Now I'm the one who needs to make sure I know where they are and what they're doing. And I do see this even, you know, with underage alcohol, of course, the drinking age is 21. And some, many actually, 18, 19, 20 year olds are still living at home. And some of the times they do come with their parents, not as often, well, because I require it for the, you know, under 18 crowd. But I would very much like to see and I do like to see that parents are still involved. They're living in your home. They're breaking the law and you're responsible for helping them, you know, get on or, you know, understand things. Now, as you said, I have had situations where there's the new family, right? The second marriage. And sometimes with that, things get out of control because parents maybe haven't investigated or know the extended family, the new person and their siblings or whatnot. And a way that adults get involved in the kids' lives, besides maybe helping with the retail theft, is the underage alcohol. You know, someone over 21 is providing alcohol to a juvenile. And for an aunt or uncle, or a, you know, sibling of this new person in the family to provide those things to a minor is very unfortunate. And again, even when they are family, I do enter a no contact order because that person doesn't understand. That's not a good thing. You know, you don't, you're 23. Why are you giving a 15 year old drinks? It just makes no sense. And that kid now is the one who's in trouble. Is the aunt or uncle or this sibling of the new partner who doesn't maybe feel as connected to the child because it was through marriage. It's not their sibling's child to think of it another way. But I don't know why they think it's okay, but I definitely know that that child shouldn't be in that home again. If they're given access to, you know, things that will encourage them to break the law. That is not a good scenario. You practice law in Illinois and Cook County, Illinois? Correct. And now Sheboygan County? Yes. So what are the differences family wise? Do you see what differences stand out or similarities? Yeah. Well, I actually, in my private practice, because I work for a law firm in Milwaukee, practice throughout Southeastern Wisconsin, but difference in families between the communities, you know, I don't know that there is much difference. Families all are family, you know, I mean, and you hopefully everybody loves their people that they are living with and want it to work out or, you know, are striving for the best. But it's, you know, sometimes there are just cultural things that are done differently. And maybe there's more of that in the Chicago area where you have more diverse population. Same with the Milwaukee area. There's so many different cultures that are there. Sheboygan has, you know, a mix, but not as prevalent. But there are definitely extended family support systems that exist in some cultures that don't exist in others. And that's a really healthy thing, obviously, for those families. Do you think that people give up on marriage too easily today? I handle divorces. Yes, I have many times, not many, but too frequently, I think, talk to people who decide that they're just going to get divorced because it seems like a simple reason. You know, you never know exactly what all is going on. But it's taken casually. It's as if they're dating, and they forget that now you have a one or two year old child that is going to keep you connected forever. It's not like you're breaking up with your girlfriend and you can walk away from this. You need to maybe work at it. It's not easy. It's not meant to be easy. It's life. And, you know, that choice to decide to divorce rather than remembering that commitment they made during their wedding ceremony, that this is for life. It's for life, and it should be for life. And it can be for life. People can work things out, but you have to try. And so I think the most, you know, discouraging thing for me is when I see one person who really wants to work at it, and the other person is just, oh, I can't be bothered, you know? We see that too. And you think, please just take some time for your children's sake. I mean, it just is so much more complicated once you're divorced and you are trying to raise children. Okay, well, great. That is a very informative show. I thank you very much for being our guest today, Katie, and hope that you'll come back again sometime. Thank you very much. We thank you for joining us on Healthy Marriage, and we hope that you'll return next week. Take care, and remember, marriage, it does matter.