 You ask we answer welcome to can this marriage be saved where we go up against common relationship problems and help you determine If this relationship should stay or go Hi, everybody and welcome to this week's episode of can this marriage be saved Um, I'm Riffa Slatkin and it's almost like in and together. We're here with Laura Doyle Who I'm gonna read her wonderful introduction because she's very well known and I want to make sure I get all of her amazing accomplishments Um To you Laura Doyle's marriage was in trouble after five years Her husband had become distant and seemed checked out of their relationship Preferring to watch watching TV to making love. There were frequent fights that ended with tense silences Marriage counseling made their problems worse each session seemed to reinforce the feeling that she and her husband were just too far apart Desperate to avoid divorcing the man. She loved Laura tried something different She started to talking to women who'd been happily married for more than 15 years what she discovered shocked her Everything she had heard in marriage counseling was wrong Laura realized there are basic truths that can help women maintain loving intimate marriages So she developed the six intimacy skills helping over a hundred and fifty thousand women in 27 countries She is a New York Times bestselling author of several relationship books and her newest title is first kill all the marriage counselors Modern-day secrets to being desired cherished and adored for life. So Laura, thank you so much. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me I hope I'm safe here When I first you know my husband's a marriage counselor when I first heard your book title I was not familiar with Shakespeare and I was just like whoa, you know, it was like shocking and then I had hurt I had um with that article we were you were interviewed in Ami magazine You know, so it interviewed me about the about Marriage counseling go wrong with what to look after for you know to avoid bad therapy and so I finally understood Also the Shakespeare reference. Did you come up with that title or did your book publisher? No, I came up with it So apologies But I it was really just out of my own Experience of course personally finding that marriage counseling really kind of contributed to our problems But also in my position as a relationship coach over the last 17 years I really had a front row seat to a lot of women's the inside of their Relationships and just hurt so many, you know story after story of yeah, I went and the marriage counselor said to get divorced So it was really kind of horrifying to see all the damage that was getting done But you know the title it was you know, I didn't want to to shock people that was part of the intention But I was also trying to be playful. It was a little bit of a joke. It was Shakespeare It was a joke when he said to kill all the lawyers So and I think humor is a great way to make people think about things differently and if things are going to change We have to think about them differently Absolutely, and that's really why we wanted to invite you on the show We've never really had a guest on our podcast, but we wanted to have you Because you are bold and brave in talking to women about taking responsibility, right? Yes, themselves and we almost you know Sometimes we're a little more gentle in our approach with asking people to take responsibility And what we really liked about your approach is that you're really bold and you say it like it is like women If you're going to constantly nag and shame and blame your husband He's going to have an affair or crisis or whatever Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for me, I was so clueless It's so sad when I think about my earlier version of myself and my marriage I just did not realize I was being disrespectful and I didn't I really thought he was the problem He was the one that needed to improve and it was hopeless because he wasn't trying to improve He didn't want to work on the relationship. He didn't want to talk to me. So From that point of view, I had just zero power. I couldn't begin to create What I have now, you know, the the kind of connection and playfulness and passion that we have now So for me, it was just very empowering to learn like Women are the keepers of the relationship and if if I wanted things to change It was up to me. I have great power and just like with Spider-Man. I have great responsibility So I believe we women do have responsibility to learn the skills that contribute to intimacy and we didn't get those sometimes You know, a lot of a lot of women are from broken homes I'm from a broken home. So the recipe I watched was a failed recipe and We didn't have relationships 101 where I went to school. So for me It's just the most basic thing that every woman needs because we are all going to want to have the kind of relationships where our husband is seeking out our company and He's just my husband just knocks himself out to do things to delight me, you know Make me happy the other recently was he pulled out his phone and he was like, oh, don't move and he starts taking pictures of me Like I'm a supermodel Wow, so I'm unspeakably grateful for that outcome And I just I just know that any woman could have that if she's married to a good man And she gets trained in skills that contribute to intimacy Just like if you get trained to drive a car or make an omelet, you're gonna have a better time With doing those those things. Yes, and I know we both work to do that very much So on our mission to educate people to do this So I'm a really Exclusively works with couples together and I like that for those whose spouses are not willing to you know work on it together You help women one-on-one And we you know one of the things when people call us and they say, you know What can I do my my husband doesn't want to see the husband or the wife? But a lot of times it's the woman that calls a book my husband doesn't want to come To counseling so we encourage them to do whatever they can to work on themselves and become aware of what they're doing to contribute to their relationship But I just picking up on one thing you said that if they're married to a good man Do you find that there are situations where no matter what the wife does The husband is not going to react in a way that is in a successful way Well, there's very few but yes, of course there are well for me What I say is safety comes first and if you're not safe in your marriage then It's I say it's a divorce. I endorse so if he is physically abusive or if he is just chronically relentlessly Unfaithful, he's not capable of being faithful Or if he has an active addiction to drugs alcohol or gambling to where to where you're not safe Then those are the situations where I cannot promise great results Because intimacy requires safety Right definitely. I mean you talk right. Yeah, I mean we're talking about I mean I've it's those those elements but also the emotional safety as well And I think that you know one when one spouse Tries to make their relationship more safe even emotionally safe, you know cutting out the criticism or the nagging and the blaming That creates that's that's what it allows for that ripple effect that that's how it allows for the husband to Respond in a different way because when he's not feeling threatened. He can actually show up I couldn't agree with you more. That is just the wisest thing what you just said there because Emotional safety intimacy does have to have emotional safety to thrive absolutely and it's funny I do have a lot of women saying well I had to have to divorce because he's emotionally abusive or verbally abusive and what we see is that when she Institutes the intimacy skills and brings respect and vulnerability and really which is inappropriate control and and the other skills that that that Emotional or verbal abuse clears up. So it's really not the intractable problem that it appears to be it's actually Something that she's contributing to Unwinningly she doesn't even realize she's being disrespectful. Just like I didn't have any concept that I was being disrespectful Yeah, I was interrupting him. I was rolling my eyes. I was contradicting him, but I wasn't disrespectful. I just can see But as soon as I made it emotionally safe on my side of the street, of course He responded to me very differently in a much better more tender, you know, his natural desire to make me ridiculously happy Returned just like all husbands have that desire that I call it the hero gene to make their wives happy but they if they have to defend themselves against her ongoing criticism and complaints and Disrespect then that's gonna supersede his hero gene coming out. Do you get a lot of flack for? Talking to women about taking responsibility for this Well, I do I do because and I think I think part of the problem is as As with my marriage, I was already so exhausted and I felt like I had worked so hard to save my marriage And I had worked hard, but I was doing the wrong work You know, I was like trying to have a state of the union address with them all the time on the couch like let's talk about our relationship which is Just let's say every husband know he's in trouble and he just wants to get away And it's not gonna lead to him saying how beautiful and special and wonderful I am which is what I really wanted to have happened So I was exhausted and when I I think when women hear like, you know, I was delivering it I'm like hey great news You are the keeper of the relationship and you have all the power and they hear it as like I have to do all the work and he's not going to do anything and it's not that at all It's that They were doing too much I was doing too much and if you do less if you relax if you let your husband Take care of you if you stop acting like his mother if you stop buying his socks and underwear and making his doctor's appointments You're gonna have a lot more time for yourself and to do things that you enjoy so I mean one of the first places we start usually is I'm like, yeah, stop, you know do less and Receive more from him and receive it graciously and gratefully and that is that makes a huge difference right there Wow, cuz ultimately the husband wants the husband wants to give to the wife And it's just if you don't let give him that opportunity then that muscle kind of Yeah Yeah, it does and it is amazing We women really can have a hard time with that sometimes I struggled with it at first I'm I got better habits now. Thankfully, but I mean my husband would I'd wake up in the morning You know with bad hair and he'd say you look beautiful and I'd be like, no, I don't shut and stop it My hair is a mess or you know, I just totally contradict like even a simple compliment. I couldn't receive it Well, he would yeah, he would say hey, I want to take you out to dinner I'd be like I already defrosted the meat, you know, like that's not practical like we can't do that So I was just rejecting him right and left without realizing and then I'd be mad. He wasn't very romantic. Oh, I love that I know Harvill Hendricks slow mo's an amago therapist and Dr. Harvill Hendricks who's the founder of wrote a book called receiving love Because he found that he could teach right correct me if I'm wrong How did that book? Well that at some point in the relationship Even all the great things you can do to work on the relationship if if one person is incapable of receiving love then All the good doesn't actually penetrate. You have to be a you know a receptacle to be able to receive that love from your partner and That sometimes, you know, you can make a lot of effort, but if there's no receiver on the other end It just doesn't hit the mark and you still can wind up in that same frustrating place I think he was seeing a lot of people unable to actually receive the love that was finally being expressed And then his own relation. I mean it was based on his own relationship to he brought the book Yeah, that's right. But I think that you know what you're saying about the Emotional abuse because sometimes we talk about this and people get really upset. I think coming from a woman It's a little bit more powerful that you're saying that that you've seen how It can stop by by you just changing and obviously, you know, there's no excuse You know, there's no excuse for for hurtful behavior But there is is a context for it and if we can change the context then the behavior can change It doesn't mean that the marriage needs to be written off or that this person is a you know And I'm you know emotionally abusive. It's the one once you throw out the word abuse and even in therapists They get very nervous nervous and they said how can you say that it can be fixed and how can you? Even say it can there's a way that way out. So yeah, absolutely if I'm back one of the interesting things that I've discovered in my journey is that women are actually the only ones that use the phrase emotional abuse never heard a man say that and What you know, and I've inquired What's interesting and here's how I The lens that I look at this through is that when I was first married. I was a rageaholic I mean, I really would rip into my husband and just try to tear him down as much as I cut up one side down the other Say all the hurtful mean awful things that I could and I'm not proud of that obviously But I am happy to say that through practicing the intimacy skills my urge My compulsion and do that was lifted and I haven't had a rage episode in gosh, you know, 17 or 18 years So I'm happy about that But I knew from my own marriage that I had been an emotional abuser, right? If you want to use that phrase and my husband never would even refer to it that way He would just be like, yeah, sometimes my wife gets mad at me I Totally different phrasing for it And so that was part of the light bulb for me was hearing women say he's emotionally abusive And then I would also and I remember one woman in particular said yeah My husband called me this name and that name in the other name and I can't even repeat the names on the show There were that and I was like kind of shocked like oh my gosh I'm gonna do with this is when I very first started out and And then I just kind of paused because I was trying to think of a response and she said so I told him He was a blobby I was like oh, it's a two-way street. They're emotionally abusing each other and Just like with little kids, right? You know one kid a punch the other one and the kid will go hey He punched me and it's like oh, yeah, you just punched him too, but they're not a ten They're not focused on that they're just focused on the pain of that they just got hit and so and because we women We are I think I can say this we are more emotional because They did a study at the University of Toronto recently and they discovered that So I'm glad you guys are sitting down for this that women are more emotional than men, right? So there's research money well-spent Because of that, I think these things do have a different impact on us as women then then maybe they do on the men And so they're a little more We say fair, but right there's a little more like oh, yeah, she was mean to me and we're like he abused me And we make it a little more dramatic and kind of bring in some I caught any team needless emotional turmoil about those kinds of fights. They are you know, I Was a joke about how there's no such thing as as you know people say you have to learn how to fight fair Well, I think it's just a thing. I mean that that's what they call it fighting, right? You're trying to you're trying to be destructive and tear down that other person in that moment And it's not it's not good. It's not right. I'm not productive. It's not productive Of course not productive at all and it doesn't keep the end goal in mind Which is to connect rather than you know to be in a state of disconnect So it's like what's your end goal? Is it to dump and be right or is it to ultimately connect and build a great relationship? And I think also just society, you know, like I noticed every single TV show always has sarcasm with regards to marriage And the husband is mean to his wife or the wife is me And it's like funny. So I think also we don't necessarily realize what becomes just a typical Joke we don't realize how damaging that is like, you know, our girlfriends going out for drinks to kind of get away They all start talking and dumping about their spouses. Like that's not you know Something that's gonna help them right in the long run No, male bashing is incredibly destructive and I didn't really see that in my early marriage I thought the same thing like oh, it's funny. Men are stupid. Men are immature. Men are lazy, you know It's hilarious. They're sloppy um, and uh It really is it, you know spending that evening with my girlfriend's male bashing Just maybe come home and think ew right like he's Why would I want to be married to this and I am married to this and I'm I'm really grateful for that now So keeping my focus on the things that I want to have increased Versus the things that I don't want more of has really made a big difference too just in terms of Refocusing my view on all the positive attributes and things that I fell in love with about my husband Gosh, I just can't say enough about that. I feel like that has really been The golden ticket into the kind of marriage that I wanted to have when I said I do that's amazing. It's Just we just really commend you for just taking your experience and putting it into something that people could you know And having faith that people can change and the expectation that women, you know and men And make this difference. I think right because a lot of people as you said in the beginning that We experience that we get calls all the time for people who've had marriage counseling going wrong Let's someone I had a couple that said you're a seventh therapist No, and and luckily they're still around because as you said a lot of people a lot of times people encourage people to get divorced They're not trained. I mean, they're not trained or not or they don't necessarily believe in In marriage or you know, let's decide whether you should stay together or not without even even seeing Yeah, so it's very it can be very destructive So it's good that you know, we need more people out there Who are giving messages of hope that things can be different and that there is a better way And also being brave enough to really call out those You know therapists that are working with couples and making the marriage and destroying the marriage, which You know, we've done but it's hard because being that he is a therapist, you know, therapists don't like I can see where that would make you really unpopular People like that the therapists all complain that people I got tons of emails from people that oh, this is exactly what's happened to me. Unfortunately People relate to it, but there are good therapists out there But there are a lot of people, you know, you want to go to somebody who knows As expertise and is going to help you reach your goal Yeah, absolutely. We we like the concept of a marriage mentor So and since we only serve women we don't serve couples We what we do is uh, I saw all the all the coaches in my organization, for instance They have had their own transformation. So they have gone from Being on the verge of divorce or really just kind of a dead marriage where they live under the same roof But there's no emotional connection and passion Just that that wonderful companionship that you get from a good marriage and they have Turned it into Something that is worth having and worth worth bragging about I guess I'll say and so they're able to say, you know Here's what I did and it's real specific along those lines, but You know, I I agree that I know that marriage counselors Mostly got into the business to help people and they mean well and they have good intentions Um, and so it is it is tragic that so many are not trained And then um, one of the things that I hear about that just breaks my heart every time is this couple will go into marriage counseling And then the counselor will invite them Just say what's wrong and the woman goes through and says well, I don't think I can trust him He's not he can't You know and she goes through all these things are incredibly disrespectful in front of a stranger And she has just dug her hole so much deeper just by doing that right like all the things It's almost like the equivalent of the man saying well, I don't think I love her and I never really did She would just crushed and she doesn't see that she's crushing him just as much By doing that kind of thing. So that's one example of the things that we hear about I'm sure you would never do but Unfortunately some poorly trained therapists are doing that and it's just a most damaging thing So everybody that's listening don't do that. Don't go to therapy and say everything is wrong with your husband in front of a stranger And that's that's the importance of having a safe process that really makes sure that they can express What they need to but in a way that is respectful and and safe so that the other person doesn't feel shamed Yeah, exactly One of the things we do is encourage them not to even tell their husbands That they are learning the intimacy skills and that if they have any complaints They could bring that to us and we'll hold that for them And then what they're the face that they're showing you know what they're bringing to the husband is The action of respect right just like love is a decision respect is a decision And so we'll hold the things that you know are grossing out about your husband or that you can't believe he's doing And when you show up to him, you're just showing that respect making that decision And what would you say to husbands who? Let's say you had a husband that I mean, I know they don't you don't work with husbands But if if you had a message, you know, you're saying that the woman needs to take responsibility Is the husband off the hook or yeah in my book first kill of the marriage counselors I tell them they can read page 72. So that'd be good for them. The rest of it is really for the watch So it sounds like um women can work with you and your coaches one on one. Is that how you do it? Yes, we um, we have a number of Different ways that we serve women. So one of them is definitely private coaching We talked to someone who has already transformed her marriage and has gone through extensive training to become a relationship coach in the style of The surrendered wife and first kill all the marriage counselors where we really um, we believe that every woman is really the expert on her own life So we don't really have any Advice it sounds kind of funny. We don't have any authority to tell her what she should do But we just have our own experience to share and some skills that you know, she'd like to learn them We can assist her in applying them. We can encourage her We um, we stand for her marriage and for it being great and amazing and exhilarating Um, and we listen and bear witness and we also acknowledge her for her progress But we're not really there to tell her what to do So I think we're sometimes the therapist model might be right They are encouraging them to stay married or not stay married, you know, like maybe she get divorced We don't have that already. You just empower them to get in touch with what they Want to do and be the best second for their marriage. Exactly Can you briefly share with the our listeners the six your six intimacy skills? I mean, I know it's uh There's a lot you wrote a whole book about it. So But Summarize the main points No, I want everyone to know what they are actually so the first one is about um replenishing your spirit by practicing Good self-care by which I don't mean eight hours of sleep and five fruits and vegetables and 30 minutes of cardio What I mean is doing at least three things a day for your own joy Like the way a child is attracted to a ball These are the things that just make you so you can't stop smiling So for me like I love to play volleyball. Um, I I love to Walk and but uh, it might just be a hot bath. I love to take an app or talk to my girlfriend on the phone or my sister So it can be really simple things But um, just really carving out the time for you so that you're not just always giving to everyone else and then becoming depleted And exhausted and thinking your husband's just the biggest idiot on the planet Which is what happens if you don't practice self-care Um, so that's number one We have to do that one in order to do any of the other intimacy skills because you won't have the energy if you don't do that one So number two is to relinquish inappropriate control a surrender wife doesn't um, she knows she can't control anyone else So she doesn't tell her husband how to drive or what to do at work or um, how to dress or what to you know eat Because she focuses on her own happiness instead and that in turn really improves the intimacy And number three is about restoring respect Um by um expecting the best outcome so instead of um expecting him to mess up You are holding out an expectation for your husband that he is um wise and uh thoughtful and competent And your uh, your words and your deeds match those expectations The next one is a receiving graciously We talked about that one a little bit about receiving gifts compliments and help with just a simple Thank you and a smile instead of you shouldn't have or i'll just do it myself Um, and that is the essence of femininity by the way a receptive Woman is very feminine and she that makes her very attractive at like 10x is your attraction level And then the next one is about revealing your heart, which is um choosing vulnerability Even when you're angry you're actually if you're angry at someone you're intimate with you are also hurt So you may choose the hurt by saying ouch or you may express um, you might say like i miss you Instead of you never spend any time with me. It's a much more vulnerable approach And the final one may be the most powerful intimacy skill of all is about refocusing your view With gratitude. So it's really focusing on the things that you want instead of the things that you don't want and um, and here we have the power of the I call it the spouse fulfilling prophecy, which is really the change your husband skill if there is one because uh, uh, we find that if you um, you know a lot of times a wife will say He always loses his temper, but no one always does anything. So um, you could just just Honestly focus on the times that he doesn't lose his temper and say you never lose your temper, right? So it's just about um choosing the one that serves you instead of the one that doesn't Beautiful Well, laura. Thank you so much. We it's it's we're definitely gonna encourage that um, women it's like your blog and your material is just such great Regular reading to do in order to encouragement. Yeah In order right to encourage and create this marriage You know of your dreams and it's it's like it's it was just a really nice um Change for us to have you on our podcast because really we're we're very selected Like like I said, we've never had anybody on because of the reason that many times, you know What another marriage professional does is not in line with our Very serious value that marriage comes first. We never ever encourage divorce Shlomo never tells a couple what to do to stay to go. It's not about that So we're very cautious by you know, what we Right selective With my what we put out there because we really do believe that there is a lot of information out there that can be more harmful And helpful So we wanted to get your message out um and share it and it's helpful for you know for people who are Don't have a willing, you know willing spouse You don't have to do it on their own And even if your spouse is willing to work on it, it can only enhance it because My one person changes in the relationship. It has an effect on the other Yeah, well, first of all, I'm so honored That you had me on I really I'm just I'm flattered. I can't believe that I got invited to you to be on So, um, that's really one of marriage counselors focusing on the positive being able to receive Um, you know looking trying to catch your spouse doing something right as opposed to looking at the negative and Yeah, I mean it's all very powerful and these little these they're little things but I mean they're big they're little things that are really big things because they can have a profound impact as you've shared your own story and With us that it makes a huge difference. So you know, those who are listening who don't think that You change doing these, you know little changes can make a big difference It can make a huge difference in your relationship. We've seen it. We do believe that Yeah, I mean if I can do it believe me. I was a complete mess Anybody can do it. Oh, that's so inspiring. Well, Laura, thank you so much and we are excited to share this information Oh, yes, and the website is Go ahead. Well, I have a special, uh, webinar going right now that, um, you know, I invite You to uh to attend and you can get it at get cherished.com slash Um, can this marriage be saved? Sorry, get cherished.com Slash can this marriage be saved and it's called get how to get respect reconnect and rev up your love life And it does do an in-depth it's an in-depth Study on the first intimacy. Well, the second answer is you still really pushing Inappropriate control it gives you really specific cheat phrases to use with your husband to get a much better response Awesome. We look forward to sending people there. Laura. Thank you again, and we'll talk to you soon All right. Bye-bye. It's gonna pleasure We hope you've enjoyed listening to today's topic We'll be back again to focus on another topic that is sure to help you with your marriage for any questions or concerns Please email us at info at the marriage restoration project.com with best wishes for your relationship success