 Peace be upon you all, and welcome to tonight's live show on Imam Hussain TV. You may note this week and also last week a number of different centres, mosques, homes have been commemorating the sad martyrdom, the tragic death of Fatima Zahra. Why is it that we always see the same faces in many Majalis? Irish, Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, and maybe even other languages in the West and naturally in the East as well. Let's explore the topic of Fatima Zahra, why is it that we have notable figures that we actually look up to from a feminist point of view? Mother Teresa, Florence Nightingale, and so on and so forth. With me tonight, inshallah, we have Dr. Syed Ahmad Naqshwani. Peace be upon you, Dr. Ahmad Naqshwani. It's a nice privilege once again to have you here on our live show. So this live show tonight is going to be discussing the topic of Fatima Zahra. The lady of the universe, Sayyidina Sayyidina Alemina. So what I want to really start off with is the fact that first of all we've got a number of different issues to address and we want to link it as it were to the contemporary ideology of what's going on these days as it were, what we can also look up to in terms of our role model and so on and so forth. But that will come later on. However, I'd like to start first of all, what would Fatima Zahra think about feminism? What would she approve, if anything, specifically for our sisters as it were? And what would you have to say? First and foremost condolences to the communities worldwide on the martyrdom of the lady of light. And I know that many centres really worked tirelessly in the last couple of months or so to try and ensure that this lady's legacy continues to be represented worldwide. But you mention a fundamental point and that is that there are many who may have attended lectures in Arabic or in Farsi or in Urdu or in English. But you tend to be preaching to the converted. And sadly there are still many in the world who do not know much about the biography of this lady. And when you ask the question concerning what would she approve of feminism today, I think defining feminism and defining why one wants to subscribe to what is seen as an ideology, in some cases a political ideology like feminism, it's not something that can be defined with looking at one angle. Because originally this movement, the feminist movement, was a movement that realised there were political, social, economic rights as well as personal rights which were not being given to women at large. And still there are many communities in the Muslim world and the non-Muslim world where in terms of education, in terms of finance, in terms of marital and domestic issues, there are many women who are treated unjustly. And what you find is that there are a number of different waves of feminism. To describe feminism with only one particular historical angle or one particular anthropological or sociological angle is not right. Because at different junctures in the development of our society, there have been many voices who have sought to speak out for the rights of women, especially in the face of an arrogant patriarchal, chauvinistic group of males. And it doesn't matter whether the state is a religious state or a non-religious state, there will always exist a group who have an arrogant world view where the way they look at women at large is in a very condescending manner. A manner in which they do not believe that these women can have the same confidence or belief in themselves as men do. The whole idea of the feminist movement is to say that no, actually self-belief and confidence is something that God has gifted to male and female. Now when I say God has gifted, some will say well not all feminists believe in God, but the whole central base is that you should be able to speak out for your rights. Whether it's economic, whether it's political, whether it's social, and that there is this ability gifted to us to be able to have equal rights especially with an Islamic thought that spiritually God creates us equal. Yes there may be different junctures in the history of society where people may have for example different social roles, but even these are open to evolution. You look at for example 7th century Arabia, you were lucky to find men that were literate, let alone women. In some cases one may even argue that women were more literate than some of the men. I don't think you can find more than 17, 18 men in Arabian society who were known to be literate. And so what you have now is that you have in the world today a number of movements where in many cases women have not had it as good as they've had it today. You'll find that there were times in the history and evolution of women within the communities around the world where they couldn't go to school, couldn't go to college, couldn't go to university. Whereas now it seems that there's more women going to university than there are men. And when there were periods where women were simply employed because of a man's sexual preferences or to get promoted they had to for example answer certain sexual favors, the Me Too campaign then emerges then there was discrimination and pay gap and then the gender pay gap issue begins to be discussed and so what we're seeing as the base of this even though I know that there are different interpretations but what we're seeing at the base is that you're seeking to ensure that there is justice in the way that men and women are treated. If therefore someone asks me would Fatima Al-Zahra be pleased with seeing what's happening with the feminist movement today. Firstly I'm no one to speak on behalf of the greatest lady in the history of the religion of Islam but her world view was a world view of establishing justice. These are, there's a mystical element to Fatima and that is the pure light carried from the Abrahamic line, those wombs that are never affected by polytheism as we recite in the salutations and the Ziaras that we have. So what you have with her is that justice is fundamental in Islamic ethics and this is fundamental when we're looking at feminism at large. In Islamic ethics the highest ethic is Islamically is justice. You've got, being truthful is great. Being generous is great. They're all good qualities but if you're sometimes telling the truth can also be wrong at certain moments. Now I know that sounds paradoxical but there are times where you don't say everything and even being overly generous can end up spoiling your kids forever. But being just is always good. Whenever you are just it's always good and so what you have with Fatima and Zahra is world view. It's a world view of justice being established and recognition that Allah is just, recognition that the role of the prophets of Allah, peace be upon them, was to establish justice when God makes the covenant with Abraham and he made you the Imam and he said, you're the Imam and he said, the oppressors will not be the one to inherit this covenant. It's the people of justice. So there are elements of the feminist movements where clearly they resonate with Fatima and Zahra as a world view. Okay, Alhamdulillah. Thank you for that deep, meaningful insight. Now very eloquently I must say put together a very good response to approval as it were of feminism by, you know, the lady of light said in Issa Al-Amin, Fatima Zahra, As-Salaamu Alayhi As-Salaam. Do you think because of a lack of justice, as it were, that women, let's obviously focus on women and obviously naturally in large, that there's been a rebellion across everywhere, all norms of society. I mean, to give you an example now, or a number of examples, there are girls, good girls, good Muslim girls who have later on taken off their hijab due to rebellion. Some women say that they should be leaders of the community. So how does this come together now in terms of feminism and approval and, you know, encapsulating word rebellion? Because this is quite key. Yes, I don't think it's a rebellion as such. No, right. I think there are a number of key factors which are involved. Okay. You brought up a number of issues. So for example, when you're talking about ladies leading the Muslim community, why not? What's the issue? If you want justice, I don't see what the issue is. If we want to establish justice and we believe that God has allowed the male and female to reach the same spiritual heights, the only thing that's going to stop it is our social worldview. And in the eyes of some women, they'll say that, well, this social worldview is dictated by men. And so obviously if a man's going to dictate this, he's not going to be wanting the female at the helm. Whereas you do find there are Muslim communities out there where a lady leading the community is not something problematic because men and women can sit together in a committee in the mosque. And yes, some will call that rebellious, but those are people who, for example, find it difficult to stomach evolution, find it difficult to stomach that times have changed, find it difficult to stomach that your best friend's mother could be somebody who you've respected for years now that she's the president of a community, what difference does it make in the way that you've seen her all these years? She's always been someone of respect, someone who we've admired, look up to and so on. If you're talking about the hijab area, now, there are many different factors why women have taken off their hijab and it's not just necessarily rebellion. There are some factors, some girls feel that nobody's proposing for them unless they take off their hijab because they feel that there are some guys who either are stipulating that I want a girl who's not wearing hijab or that some guys will not look at the same way as a girl whose hair is showing and then naturally recognizing that hair is going to be a fundamental area in the way that a person looks at his future wife. And yes, there may be others who, for example, have found arguments. Social factors such as, you know, well, we're not getting right jobs. Right jobs. Promotion. Others have found that Islamophobia has been a reason where they fear going on a train or on a bus because they think to themselves that this could be the end. Then there are others who may have looked at certain theological arguments. Okay. They've looked at certain exegetes of the Quran, certain conclusions on verses, and they've decided that, well, this is contextual and I don't necessarily need to wear a hijab. Right. I don't think Islam has no problem with people who seek to find answers on these issues. Right. But you have to be seeking from the right people. And I'm not saying that women have to be seeking answers from men. This is another area. Okay. There are a number of communities down the world where there are resident alimas, not just resident alims. Yes. And I'm happy when I hear that there is a resident alima. Right. Because our sisters in many cases don't get to hang around with this lecturer when he's in town. True. So we can spend late nights with the lecturer. Yes. I know from my own experience that for years where I'd go to lecture, many of the guys would be able to chill with me after I've lectured whereas with the sisters, they're not going to have that chance. No. And therefore when they've got these questions, there's no one to answer them. True. And I as well shouldn't be the one answering them. You know, there are sisters in our community who are very learned, who've gone and studied at the seminaries. So this whole idea today that maybe it was like, you know, the girls in our community are modern and rebellious and so on. In many cases, there is a base to why they are. Yeah. You know, I don't think it should be seen as negative because I think those who she was influenced by, I think they receive the same accusations that they're too loud, they're too rebellious. How dare they? This is not the behavior of a woman. Yes. That's the main criteria, isn't it? And if you do look back at Fatima's life, at the life of those who influenced her, then you'll find they also were at the forefront of seeking to speak out against injustices. Yes. Okay. Thank you for that. With regards to world views now, do you think that Fatima Zahra, peace be upon her, who influenced her as it were, her world view? Well, I think her dad, you know, the prophet, peace be upon him, his family has a major influence on her life. Right. She loves him, he equally loves her because it's as if in Fatima there is not only the continuation of the endless bounties mentioned in Surat Al-Kothar where, remember Fatima's birth is a huge for him because he's lost these sons and people are mocking him by saying ebtar, ebtar, ebtar. Ebtar refers to an Arabic, if an animal's tail was cut, they would call it ebtar. I see. So they're telling the prophet that your lineage is cut now because you don't have any sons, male sons, they're dying shortly after birth and so Allah gives him Fatima and when he gives him Fatima, not only is he loving her, not only can he use her as a means of helping the growth of the Muslim community, you know, when they see him standing up for Fatima that one moment is him telling these different chauvinistic Arab males that I'm the man who's come with this religion yet look how important Fatima is, look how important women are, look how important your daughters are, your sisters are, your aunts are, don't be of those who oppress them and arrogantly treat them and so on and she likewise is influenced by many areas of his life, when she sees for example him speaking out against injustice, the injustice of the Arabs in burying the daughters alive, the injustice of the Arabs in terms of inheritance as a fundamental example, you know, these Arab women could not inherit and the most arrogant Arab would be the one who says that woman cannot inherit or those who would conclude that we don't need the witnessing of women you know, if they saw a woman give witness they'll treat her arrogantly or if they for example heard that a woman was inheriting it would bring particularly this taste to them and yet the Holy Prophet peace be upon his family through the medium of the Quran begins to speak out against these injustices and when he begins to speak out Fatima looks at the way he speaks she sees the way he treats his wife Khadija and Khadija is that great blessing of course in his life, Fatima sees the way he dotes on her the way he faces economic sanctions but she's a pillar for him, she becomes a leader for the religion of Islam, to the extent you know the famous narration says Islam would not have grown were it not for what were it not for the sword of Ali and the wealth of Khadija so the Holy Prophet peace be upon his family has a huge effect on Fatima's world view from a young age and I think this is a lesson for all of us especially parents out there, our kids are like a sponge they learn languages quick they learn concepts quick, they learn certain moral principles quick they make sure that we are the best examples for them no doubt because it's as if when you're looking at the young Fatima, she looks at her mom, she looks at the dad and she sees just the best example possible the way they interact, the way they are as husband, as wife, as mom, as dad spiritually the beautiful areas of meditation you know going to the cave, yes together with the young Ali, yes yes yes Imam Ali says in Nehj Al Balagh I used to follow the Prophet like the baby of the she camel follows its mother you know and she looks at that wonderful balance that's there, you can be a wife, you can be a good mom you can be spiritual, you can speak out against injustice so he has a huge influence on her, thank you for that with respect to feminism as it were can it be said that her dear father the Holy Prophet peace be on him and be with her dear Islam were the real first feminists as it were well in the way that they spoke out, just an extension from what we just mentioned I think it's not a far-fetched statement, I know people can debate all day long that you know what feminism you don't understand that every area of feminism is not correlated with Islam, let's not be around the bush we agree that there are certain areas of feminist thought that are not in line with Islamic thought but let's work on the principle of seeking to address certain injustices, Sayyida Khadija alayhi salam normally spoke out for the rights for women to inherit, the rights for women to live, the rights for women to be educated, the rights for women to work like Sayyida Khadija alayhi salam, phenomenal personality and as I said earlier I think she has this role which sadly the feminist textbooks or the textbooks in our schools and our colleges in the Muslim and in the non-Muslim world believe you me the Muslim world has forgotten Sayyida Khadija the Muslim world has forgotten Sayyida Khadija and us forgetting Sayyida Khadija is part of the reason we have so many minorities, part of the reason that we have so much bella on our community Saudi Yemen this is everyone you're looking around the world and you're seeing poverty and crime and people dying and Syria and Iraq and part of that is because we neglected the bounties that were left for us, we destroyed the graves of the grandchildren of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, we desecrated the houses of Sayyida Khadija and others we forgot these personalities the lack of recognition has gone and we're suffering now and believe you me you look at many Muslim households I guarantee you their kids do not know much about Sayyida Khadija and it's sad there are many families now don't even name their daughters Khadija believe you me if you've done a survey in the last year of daughters names some names are absurd I won't go to those because I don't know what some of those names went on Google and wrote cool names and something popped up and they just named that but pillars like Khadija they changed the course of the way women were treated so when we see Fatima so magnanimous look at her mother then you'll know the apple does not fall far from the tree both metaphorically and possibly on the night on the garage literally thank you for that we're moving on to education now and this is a really really key fundamental area as it were using the pivot I find I'm sure yourself and other people do as well it's with great sadness and regret that we find so much being advocated, promoted spoken of on gender issues and studies but there's no mention of Sayyida Fatima Asala Asala Amala Asalaam why is that the case because because you think it's in numerous I cannot say practical environments for example myself I've studied I studied a degree you have various departments, sections named after famous personalities and so and so forth but yet you don't have anything in relation to the fame or the justice or the elm the wisdom the grace of Fatima Asala Asala Amala Amala Amala in my introduction I mentioned about you know figures such as Florence Nightingale, Mother Teresa and so forth but there's just a lack of you know recognition as it were given to the greatest woman who's ever graced why is that the case especially with regards to gender studies I think there is a need for us to build a better relationship with the academic world. There are many of us who either studied, worked or sent our kids to an academic world but we need one more step in our relationship and that is either by talking to the departments of Islamic studies and seeking to establish fellowships, chairs we'll come to that as well, institutes named after these glorious personalities. I've seen that there are institutes named after kings of Gulf states I've seen that there are institutes of Islamic studies named after famous figures in Islamic history but it's sad that your heart pressed to find an institute or a chair or a fellowship which is named after the prophet peace be upon him and his family. It's very rare and if you're going to these prestigious universities the Ivy Leagues in America or for example you go towards the universities in the UK or in Europe you will not find departments which are named after Imam Al-Sada or Imam Al-Baqir. Now someone asks why would we need to have a chair or a fellowship or scholarships named after them? Well firstly you are giving a little bit back to what they did for you. You're honoring them number two and that's an act of worship but number three the world is a better place when people learn about the family of the prophet. How also are they going to learn? And one of the ways they're going to learn is when they hear for example the Imam Al-Sadaq award for scientific endeavor and achievement this year goes to because we went to many of our you know when we go to the ceremonies of graduation you hear that this award and that award and this award and that award but you never hear the Imam Al-Radha award or the Imam Al-Hadi award or the Imam Al-Sadaq chair of Islamic studies. So there is a need for us to speak to these universities and I hope that every single level of Shia authority from the laity who sits under the Mambar under the pulpit to those at the top gather their resources together and approach these big universities. It's not difficult. You can approach them, you talk with them and you say to them that how much would it cost for example for us to endow a chair the way Dyson endowed the way for example the Indian government endowed for economics the way for example this country and that Gulf country endowed for other areas we want to endow a chair on gender studies in the name of Fadr Al-Zahra it will cost us a couple of million pounds for example but the amount of wealth and the amount of well wishes and the amount of generous people we have believe you me on a night like this we could raise it I wouldn't be surprised we have so many generous people in our communities but sometimes the evolution and the steps in our direction as a Muslim community we need to provide it with some sort of guidance. Yeah okay okay thank you so much for that now just to put things into perspective and context as it were I know and just in relation to what you mentioned about the chair as it were you perhaps I mean for example you were very instrumental and very integral as it were in the Imam Ali chair so that's the first point I want to inquire about second point I want to also ask is about last week that you from my understanding you attended an event at Cambridge as well so if you can address that and also what guidance is given to that so for example the first point is the Imam Ali chair and also the event at Cambridge and why is this so integral and instrumental on tonight's topic for Fatima Zahra It was one of the biggest honors to be able to establish a chair Named after Imam Ali a.s. and I hope that the viewers who are out there listening are the ones who will establish a chair Named after Fatima Zahra a.s. The hard work of Professor Mahmoud Ayyub and the Imam Ali foundation the Universal Muslim Association of America the World Federation and others who contributed generous donors in the Muslim community especially in North America who had generously donated to help us establish the Imam Ali chair because many of us felt that Imam Ali a.s. is known in our mosques he's loved by Muslims worldwide with respect to whether you're Shi'a or Sunni you all love Imam Ali a.s. But why is there no chair named after him? A man of philosophy, a man of mysticism, a man of spirituality a man of ethics, a man of law and the list goes on and yet you find that there are there were no chairs we were busy building mosques and mashallah we've done great building mosques we have built me up mosques and it's quite sad as you mentioned earlier on you alluded to the fact that you know we have certain figures who may be known maybe unknown in the west I find it personally quite sad that you know you have mosques named after certain people that are modern day figures we don't even know about so it's quite strange and you're quite right I think that you know it goes back to the credence and lack of recognition and who these noble characters were and people could go online if they want you know if you go on Google you saw Imam Ali chair of Shi'a studies and dialogue amongst Muslim legal schools first aim is to ensure that Imam Ali's name was there it's at the Hartford Seminary in Connecticut USA you'll find the Imam Ali chair being established there it cost us one and a half million dollars and alhamdulillah you know I was the inaugural holder of the chair then you have Dr. Saifuddin Qara and you know all have given a service over there where we were able to have some of the best seminars with renowned speakers and we thank God now that you know I can announce to everybody publicly that we're going to have a fellowship with the Wolf Institute at Cambridge University named after lady Khadija the Hikma Foundation has worked tirelessly to try and ensure that this happened and so it was the Hikma Foundation alongside the Wolf Institute at Cambridge last week and can people read up on this? Last week's event was a wonderful event we have another event at Cambridge University discussing the life of Fatima Al-Zahra and that's March the 4th with the Wolf Institute which seeks to bring interfaith dialogue between Muslims, Christians and the Jewish community so that type of work is where I hope we're heading and I know that there are many who watch these shows who may turn around and say I have a million, two million, five million spear let's establish something soon as it were and the importance of bringing to light these figures as it were who in many circles have been forgotten as you mentioned you know the lack of names that many sisters or girls are named after. Many people haven't heard about these great notable personalities just staying on that topic do you think what do you think has been more valuable as it were a chair or an institute as it were and that's specific to the lady of Fatima Al-Zahra this is quite important because what do you think are the dynamics as it were around that? Is there a difference? I think if you're able to have a chair in the UK you call it a professorship and in America it's called a chair and look across the board on there's work being done you know there's work being done at Exeter, there's work being done at Leiden, there's work being done at Birmingham, there's work being done at Holloway, Lancaster so has Hadam-Ojonshi so there's great work on a study I think a chair professorship is a great position to have for us but I think an institute is ultimately what we should aim for unlike a chair where you may have a professor with a research or a secretary assistant I think with an institute you can have four, five, six faculty, you can have researchers as well and I do hope that an institute of Shi'a studies named after Fatima Al-Zahra will go a long way to ensuring that people know about Fatima in Janta studies. Okay thank you for that viewers we're going to be going in for a short break in the next few minutes but however before we do say now I want to ask you a question Aisha seems to be mentioned continuously more in Janta studies, courses, content, programs as it were and also by feminists, why do you think this is a case and this is quite key as it were you know I think there's a number of reasons why I think firstly if you're looking at her influence after the Prophet peace be upon his family dies Aisha has a huge influence and you know in Sunni thought she is seen as virtually half the religion after the Prophet peace be upon his family dies you want to get knowledge you go towards her so there is that influence see Khadija and Fatima are more revered in Sunni thought because of association rather than because of merit secondly I think Aisha raising a war against Amir al-Mu'mineen against Imam Ali the famous battle of the camel, battle of Jamal I think for many in Janta studies, for many in feminism they see that as the ideal you know I've always said that anyone who says that Islam is a religion that oppresses women come and have a look at Aisha at Jamal there's no oppression of women, there's a woman who's telling men how to fight and you know what to fight, when to fight I think in the paradigm of feminist thought that's a role model because that is someone showing that her fight Ali there's no issue, does not matter Ali in terms of the Prophet peace be upon his family, his position in terms of the narrations his position in the incident of the cloak, his position in the incident of Mubahla his position at Badal-Ukhad-Khanda Qaybar and I am a woman but this is a time where men cannot dominate, I can dominate and I can raise an army and I think that I remember once sitting in Washington D.C and the waitress overheard me and my friend speaking and she recognized that we might have a bit of Islamic knowledge and then she said you know my role model is Aisha, I love studying Aisha and I asked her why and she said because she gave you that lesson that you can lead men, men don't lead you anyone and the way that she fought Ali at the Battle of the Camel so gender studies when it looks at Islamic studies and feminist theories when they look at Islamic studies this is a huge figure with Fatima alayhi salam, Fatima al-Zahra the way they look at her is well it's quite a negative depiction academically this lady is quite emotional, her dad died, she gets emotional but we have to love her because she is the Prophet Muhammad's wife and they really reduce her but the reality is I think who Fatima stood up against is why she's reduced and had she stood up against anyone else I think there'd be more people admiring Fatima but who she stood up against is probably the reason that she had to be hidden from the annals of history of the way Aisha was born viewers we'll be going to break very shortly do call in for your questions or telephone numbers 0203 515019 you can also whatsapp your messages and also I do urge if you can please promote the channel for shows by donating generously it would be very helpful as well to put shows and have distinguished excellent superb guests such as Dr Siddharth Amar Naqshwani Dr Siddharth Amar we'll come back in the next couple of minutes just want to put a fruitful thought as it were what we're going to follow up with so we'll come back with this question inshallah how would you or should we construct a Fatima salam alayhi salam world view on feminism so we'll come back after the break on that point so see you very shortly salam alaykum and welcome back to tonight's live show with me tonight we have Dr Siddharth Amar Naqshwani salam alaykum just before we continue I'd like to thank everyone for watching the live show tonight and also previously from our honored guest Dr Siddharth Amar Naqshwani do continue watching do also please promote the show in a channel if you can also pass the message around and also donate generously the telephone number once again is 0203 51501 double nine so now just prior to the break I just posed a short point to ponder on in terms of how would you or should we as it were construct a view as it were from Fatima salam alayhi salam on feminism can there be one as it were I think there are stages in her life we've spoken about sorry about you know how she took grace and admiration and that sort of molding as it were from her parents so just extending that now forward yeah there's a unique understanding of Fatima alayhi salam when you're looking from the angle of her as a wife her as a mother the spiritual Fatima and the political Fatima right these are areas where some feminists may turn around and say for example today you hear these things being said by some that you know no need for me to be married independence is without you know is without any man in my life I don't need a man in my life I don't need kids in my life you know there are some who go to an extent where they say like the dog for example at home is their kid and they'll do it on their dog and their dog is everything for them they'll admit that this is my child and then there are certain feminist movements which for example don't see a need for a god don't see a need for like a spiritual way as such it's more of a focus that if we can get our rights back then after that you know everybody can live as free as they want and then you have an area where there is a lot of correlation and that is the politically outspoken Fatima but I think what's unique in the paradigm that you can build with Fatima alayhi salam is the areas of mother you know wife mother that you know 5 for your rights but don't look at these as taking away your independence or your freedom or making you unhappy on the contrary even these you can make divine you know so for example when we're looking at the area of being a wife you'll find that there are even some in our communities today who'll say that I don't want to get married and you say but you're at the age for marriage I don't want to get married I don't want to get married I don't want to get married Fatima sees alayhi salam no issue in her getting married at a young age of course cultures differ today and there are different understandings morally of what's allowed what's not allowed but she gets married at a young age she wants to get married it's not just that the family is forcing her yeah there are people proposing for Fatima she wants to get married she's got the rights of course to choose who she wants to be with and she's very happy to know that she's going to be with this husband in his early 20s that guy she gets to really know in Mecca and especially on the night of Hijra when he is ready to sacrifice everything for his for his prophets and for his lords and she's you know enamored by him and what he does so what you've got on the one angle is this person who doesn't find marriage a hindrance to her growth but then not just marriage she's happy to be this wife who's behind the scenes even though she could easily say that do you know who's daughter I am I'm the daughter of the most important man you'll ever know hey you know I don't find it a problem if my husband is the lead look there are some real nasty husbands out there and I don't want to look at the examples of people like that because they've ruined you know the image completely but I think the same time there can be an exaggeration of victimhood and we do have to be careful you know I'm not going to deny that there are you know some nasty piece of work out there but at the same time she looks she's ready to be there at the battle of where others may have been complaining that you know where's my Maldives honeymoon why didn't you book the best hotel in Dubai and you know people have got the right to want the best of everything her honeymoon was and she finds pleasure in treating the wounds of her husband on the day of death she makes this marriage wife conundrum seem divine not a chore there is a beautiful and I know that there may be people out there who are like this is all archaic no there are still ladies who pride themselves absolutely of having their man come home and literally it's a case of come home because you know she's going out necessarily to work she's happy to be at home happy to be waiting for her man not ever wanting to annoy him you know to the extent I remember when she dies you know just before she dies she says is there ever been a day that I hurt you or annoyed you you know there's been anything tell me famous line of hers so there's this beautiful construction of Fatima the wife where some may have a feminist ideology today that you know why should I listen to him why should I obey it's not obligatory it's not that way look at it as a growth for the betterment of both your relationship spiritually but then there's this also yearning to be a mom and I think some who maybe missed the boat because their reasoning was that I for example want to fight for the rights of womankind out there which I think is a great cause and then there are others who said that I don't need a man in my life reach a stage where there was a sense of I'm missing something without having a child yeah Fatima loves kids she wants kids she finds the rearing of kids as non-impediment but rather again as some in divine right she wants to talk with them about the Quranic verses that are being revealed day by day she is honored by her lord when her kids are under the cloak in the famous incident of the cloak a real mystical moment which no wife or daughter of the Prophet Muhammad can ever claim to have had except her um Salama wants it but it's told you are good this is reserved for Fatima she loves being around Hasan and Hussein some look her and say you know if you get married and have kids that's the end of your life for Fatima there's a sparkle in her eyes having her kids all around her you know it's a it's a it's a beautiful moment for her sitting and talking with them and then you've got this third angle of the Fatima feminist possible reconstruction and that is the spiritual Fatima you know there are some feminist movement today I don't need God you don't need religion religions archaic religion produces a man dominate and I don't deny there are some cultures where because of religion that has happened yeah but the spiritual Fatima is unique there's supplications from Fatima there's that meditation and reflection that she learns from her mother and father's relationship um which allows that mystical to speak of Zahra that's still in the life of so many of us yeah and some Muslims probably don't even know where it actually be Muslims out there who after their prayers will will do to speak 33 times subhanallah 33 times Alhamdulillah 34 times Allah Akbar and you ask them what is that none of them know the origin is the rosary bead and there's this lovely lovely um relationship between Mary and Fatima ok Mary the infallible Fatima the infallible Mary the virgin birth Fatima the human virgin Mary's son is to save mankind Fatima son virtually does save mankind Mary is the lady of the rosary be it Fatima is the lady of the rosary subhanallah so there's that mystical edge to a Fatima but put that aside there's a spiritual Fatima her relationship with God is not a hindrance it's not you people are talking myths her relationship with God is beautiful but I think the last area is the one that feminists can relate to more than anything and that is I'll stand up against the male dominance of the time yes I'll stand up for economic rights political rights social rights and boy does she stand up yeah subhanallah subhanallah thank you for that we'll come to the political side and then we'll give it some depth as it were and some substance later on but just um just in relation to her being a oh naturally the wife of Amir and Muhammad and Ali Ibn Dali Bala Islam um sure I mean some feminists might say well it's not really an alignment as it were with the feminine paradigm you know she's just she's just submissive so what do you have to say about that well when you've got such a wonderful husband yeah and the husband who's willing to share duties with you um not arrogantly looking down at you it's not about looking at a submissive she loves the man when you love someone you're willing to do anything for them yeah okay okay now just in terms of touching a bit more on the spiritual side as it were aspects um you've mentioned about you know various schools of feminism because there's not one there's many okay there's maybe one of them is seeking something some sort of form of freedom as it were um but what lessons what I mean feminism lacks or omits lessons as it were from Fatima Zahra what can for example we give to the feminists for example if they say well we don't believe in a god and the movement around that what aspects can we take from a spiritually from Fatima Zahra yeah the lack of a belief in a god does hinder the feminist world view for Muslims for example because it's all well and good speaking out for political rights and social rights but social rights and what you view as social rights may differ you know for example some may be pro-abortion while Islam allows abortion in certain cases you know it shouldn't be willy-nilly free as anyone wants to abort and there may be other areas which they believe everybody should have the freedom to choose and to live their lives and Islam may differ on certain areas and I do believe that what Fatima Zahra has Fatima Zahra has something beautiful in her relation with her lord that is as if it's the icing on the cake of the whole speaking for justice and against justice that there is I'm doing this with the intention of getting closer to the lord talking after the creation of the lord and this is huge for her because in her night prayers she never misses the night prayer she loves being awake in the night her kids are used to seeing her on the prayer mat in the night and then when you've got you know her careful community is because of her love for her lord anyone who loves the lord will know about the community I remember Imam Ali sees the christian begging and he's like he doesn't say who's this how did we reach a stage where this christians begging because of his love for his lord he could not bear to see another human being hurt and so Fatima continuously is praying for others in the community so having a relationship with god this is a key point many people out there will turn around and say I don't need god to be good okay but would you lose if you have a relationship with god if I observe what my lord has asked me to observe helping the poor helping the orphans speaking out against injustice giving charity being obedient to my parents acknowledging the elders you know then what have I lost and that's the beauty in Fatima's world view that her relationship with god is not a hindrance to her growth yes yes Alhamdulillah thank you for that we'll come to the political side in a moment or two but I just want to add that you have notable characters such as for example learning so much from the mystical side of Fatima's memorization of the Holy Quran and the adab and the akhlaq as it were shown to people in the house but also outside as well the list can go on as well of course now we're going to give this last section now some context and some substance as it were we I think we've got about 20 minutes or so so let's dwell into the political aspects as it were clearly say now after the death of the Holy Prophet peace be upon him certain confirmed undoubted undeniable sad events took place we're not going to go deep into for example but for example many feminists wanted rights and you can see from her biography and in history she grew immensely after the death of her politically we'll come to the other sides of what the political episodes were but how did she actually start growing now this is just a lead up as it were to all events you know leading up what Fatima after her father's death the Prophet peace be upon his family is normally portrayed as this lady who's crying for her dad people always will narrate in non-shia circles that her father tells her that I'm going to die she gets emotional but then he tells her you're going to be the first to join me and then she smiles and then we're told that Fatima dies shortly after her father dies some say six months and so on Sahih al-Bukhari mentions interestingly a clear problem that occurs between Fatima, peace be upon him and the first caliph I mean it's undeniable and deny this and there's no Jewish Yemeni guy called Abdullah bin Saba causing this there's a problem what's the problem because Fatima's pleasure is the pleasure of Allah whatever Angus Fatima Angus I mean just the famous words as it were you know for example the holy prophet left such profound words which I want to read as it were Fatima is a part of me whoever angers her angers me and whoever angers me angers God so it's really I mean one should actually read this many a time that means any dispute that occurs is not a personal mundane issue because if the prophet is saying Fatima is a part of me whoever angers her angers me and I love how there are later versions of this that this is about Ali angering her when he wants to propose for Abu Jahl any attempt to try and distance away from what's clear there's an issue where she begins to speak out in the way her mom and dad spoke out against the lack of economic or property or social rights for women earlier she now witnesses that there is a piece of land by the name of Fedek given to her by her father after the battle of Haibar as a gift and the first narration which he himself is the only one who narrates and people go back to him for it prophets don't leave behind inheritance if any feminist out there wants to see the greatest moment of speaking out against the male dominated hierarchy for once property and economics and social rights look at Fatima in her sermon speaking out against the authority of the time using the Quran to say did not Suleyman inherit from Dawood now someone can bring me arguments all day long about Suleyman and what he inherited from Dawood you have more knowledge of the meaning of this verse than Fatima are you saying that you understood this verse more than the lady who the prophet said is a part of me continuation of knowledge which flows from the prophet to Hussein and so on and she is adamant that if speaking out is going to result in her losing her life there are feminists out there who lost their lives speaking out against some of the most minorities who wouldn't allow ladies to inherit who wouldn't allow ladies to go to university who wouldn't allow ladies to have rights domestically or on an economical social level and she loses her life because of speaking out vehemently that everybody else inherits from their father but you are saying that I don't have we returned back to the days of ignorance earlier women were buried alive babies were buried alive 23 years later Fatima shaking Madina ask anyone out there go to Sahih al-Bukhari type Fatima and type the word FEDAC F-A-D-A-K yes and the beauty of this whole incident is that Fatima is no longer I am Fatima you should like me because I'm your prophet's daughter no no no it's not about bias you should like me because I am Ali's wife no I know this Quran inside out my husband is the most learned person in the religion of Islam after my father died we are not just some Arab random nomad that converted to the religion a few years ago we are the descendants of Abraham in your durood you say Allahumma salli wa sallim wa barak ala Sayyidina Muhammad now when we are doing this we are making a point clear that point is that Fatima has highlighted her knowledge and her spirituality and her pleasure is the pleasure of Allah there's no Yemeni Jew to blame me on now other incidents we found in Yemeni Jew and we said it's his fault not this one because this one the door to the prophet some viewers may not know until today where is she buried someone once said to me ladies used to die young at that time her mum certainly wasn't young when she died oh you know what she died but she forgave everyone that's the beauty of Fatima she's just highlighted I don't care if there are men dominating injustice is injustice it's a very tragic every so does it were of her death and you've mentioned about fadak and its importance for the benefit of viewers and also a timely reminder but what are the circumstances around the door itself the door falling this is a she I believe she I believe that she was a martyr other schools in Islam recognize that there's an issue between Fatima and the first two caliphs they do seek forgiveness they do seek to come and talk to her according to the narrations of other schools in Islam there's clearly an issue and what was clearly a belief in early she I communities judging by the earliest texts irrespective of questions concerning 100% authenticity of these texts there is clearly an early belief that Fatima dies as a martyr and so yeah you can find this within the I circles other schools in Islam recognize that yes clearly when she dies there are two figures she has no relation with whatsoever okay we have a question it's not quite on the topic but I'll still read it out for you what's Islam's view on force or pressured marriage what should one do in this hopeless situation so it could be someone that this person's wife feminist movements started off started off because you're seeing that ladies are forced to marry men they can't stand or they're forced to marry a cousin who they have no love for no relationship with it's so sad and the best example is our prophet peace be upon him his family that he tells his daughter Fatima this person's come and propose you want him it's up to you until eventually she wants to marry Ali so this is who we follow when it comes to right okay there's another question okay why can't women become witnesses for Nicar or read a Nicar that's a good question no need witnesses for a Nicar okay and you need witnesses for divorce and she I know okay and in terms of reading Nicar of course she can read her Nicar okay so you know whoever has put that question you've now got the answer for that so women can read Nicar as it were just we're going to come to the sort of later aspects as it were of the actual night of burial right at the end but just before we do let's just focus on her daughter Bibi Zaynab salam what's what she learned from her great mother and did she have a similar world view and that's quite key as well because dynamically it's changing now isn't it from the mother now to daughter and it's slightly different times naturally but you know Zaynab and we'll come to her political stance yeah it's usually influenced by her mother yeah if you're looking at certain tales they may be hagiographical but there are tales of her mother telling her there'll be a day where your brother is alone and you're going to have to give him the shirt from me so her mother as if her mother recognizes that she's going to face a difficult future but it's very similar Zaynab wants to get married young Zaynab loves her kids there's a real spiritual Zaynab and there is the political Zaynab so there's a great reflection between Fath, Zahra and Zaynab salam and that can be seen in Karbala, Kufa and Sham right you know so she's they have these wonderful kids they have a great relationship with each other she's known to be giving tafsir of the Quran known to give lectures to ladies so she doesn't find it an impediment that she's married but she can still give back to the community but once again Zaynab versus Yazid it's a huge moment in Islamic history the granddaughter of the Prophet peace be upon his family versus the grandson of Abu Sufyan if ever you wanted to see where Islam went that was the best moment for you to know where it went Viewers we have just under 10 minutes so do call in if you have any questions telephone number is 0203 515019 you can also text your questions via whatsapp as well Zaynab just that nicely leads up to the point of Zaynab she faces a male patriot as it were known as Yazid so I mean she's facing him an integrate in today's subject man couldn't one say that Aisha, Fatima, Zaynab, and Zaynab will all be great models in male dominance you know in Arabic we say such a statement Aisha, Fatima, Zaynab are all great role models from fighting male dominance in Arabic we say it seems like a truthful statement there is a huge difference between who Fatima and Zaynab were standing up against and when Fatima and Zaynab stand up that is the standing up of the Prophet peace be upon his family that is the static line whereas with Aisha she stood up against Ali now when people stood up against the first Khalifa and did not pay zakat and they called it the riddle wars and they said that they were people who were claiming that they were prophets and they have to be killed but there were also people who didn't pay zakat to the first Khalifa and they were killed they wouldn't pledge allegiance to him they were killed but when you rise against the fourth you throw the Yemeni Jew into the mix which really is a laugh they are working their socks off now to try and prove it's all the Yemeni Jew's fault I think the Prophet Muhammad's companions had issues with each other during his lifetime you know one of the reasons given for Ali and Khalid had an issue we got an issue in the time of the Prophet I don't know how you're going to survive with each other afterwards and I think Khalid's behavior with Fatima proved that there was never going to be a survival so what you have there is that this cannot be compared in terms of fighting Ali is fighting the Prophet peace be upon him and his family Ali is with the truth and the truth is with Ali it's a slogan till the day we die if somebody can find me a way better than Ali I'll follow it which was the words of Qumail bin Ziyad Tuhajaj bin Yusuf al-Thakfi Qumail said to Hajj just before Qumail was being killed that he said show me a way better than Abu Turab is there a way better than Abu Turab you can never ever accept now we just have about 6 or 7 minutes and very briefly I'm going to put forward the two questions that are going to be coming up now to you so we're going to be speaking about the night of her burial and also just immediately after that the literary works and obviously feel free to choose which order you want to do so if you can just really elaborate on the night of her burial because we only have about less than 5 minutes actually so we've got to sum up exactly what happened and why it was so important the night of her burial both buried secretly in the middle of the night in public funerals she orders that she wants to be buried secretly she doesn't want people to attend her funeral the only ones who are allowed to attend are really close close companions you know the likes of Abu Thar for example of Salman very very close companions of the Ahl al-Baita al-Mas'ala and they bury her secretly in a location that none of us will ever know about very difficult for the Imam he now has four orphans at home and we do have these narrations about him seeing her in his dream but you know he really breaks down when he buries her it's amazing this is Ali the lion of Khaybar but her death takes it's toll years later two incidents highlight to me just how much he adored her and one is he talks to one of his governors I'm not mistaken the governor of Basra he tells him that he's trying to warn him about don't usurp money don't usurp funds, don't be a crook and he tells him that me and Fatima all we had was Fedek and even that they took and also Umal Baniin when she changes her name because she notices that he gets emotional when he hears the name Fatima so it was a really emotional night for him if you read some of his words some of his poetry in burying her he breaks down Ali you know this is Ameer al-Mu'mineen Imam al-Muttaqeen Sayyid al-Wasriyyin Asad Allah al-Gha'ad and yet he really breaks down so yeah that's for the night of the burial it's extremely difficult for him okay the final question for tonight is Fatima al-Zahra as-salamu alayhi as-salam she's known as one of the four women of Paradise but so little written about her what can we say about this and also just as a final point can you recommend any few or any literary works as it were that are famous but yeah so these are the last point as it were for tonight's show Father Christopher Clohessi okay of the Pontifical Institute of Arabic and Islamic Studies in Rome if you type Christopher Clohessi on Amazon he has written Fatima daughter Muhammad the book on Fatima al-Zahra as-salam and I would recommend everybody okay to try and get hold of that book in London in a couple of weeks time we're gonna have a couple of book launches inshallah in south London at the Haida Islamic Center north London Stanmore Mosque also at Cambridge on March the 4th okay so that early March period the father from Rome will come and talk about why he wrote a book on Fatima and please those of you who are in the UK join us that week and Friday, Saturday and Monday in London as well as in Cambridge to launch the book on Fatima al-Zahra as-salam it's a huge honour for us to have a priest father from Rome writing about Fatima and even when you listen to him talk about Fatima he highlights to you that people like Fatima and Ali are not limited to Islam unlike others who surrounded the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him who will only be admired by Muslims you will never see admiration or poetry or works about them by non-Muslims but with Imam al-Ali as-salam with Fatima al-Zahra as-salam you'll find Christians adoring them Hindus loving them many have written works on them because they transcend the Arab nomad pagan riffraff that surrounded the early days of Islam beyond humanity so father Christopher Cloacy as I said the first weekend in March he will be launching his book on Fatima al-Zahra as-salam a few years we've run out of time it's been a great pleasure to have Dr. Seylam Anakshwani on the show tonight unfortunately as I said we have run out of time I wish we could have extended the show a little bit longer but from Dr. Seylam Anakshwani and myself Muhammad Ali see you next time As-salamu alaikum