 You're welcome back. Well, 2023 elections present a unique situation for the average Nigerian voter to confront the issue of trust deficit among the political class. Nigerians have run out of patience in trusting their politicians and those who hold public office on their behalf. Nigerians hope that the 2023 general elections will herald a new dawn in electioneering campaigns dominated by issue-based debates while campaign promises are interrogated and situated within the current economic situations and realities locally and internationally. In the hope that the best candidates win the election to deliberate or to liberate Nigerians with or without the cash crunch, with or without the problems that we are facing in Nigeria, we need a leadership that will take the people seriously. Now we're being joined by our guests for today, Mr. Shagun Shokwiton, Chairman Accountability, Kanda and Transparency Network. Good morning and welcome to the program, Mr. Shokwiton. Thanks for having me. We also have comrade Aragbe Anselm, a do not 2023 senatorial candidate and national youth leader of Labour Party. Welcome to the program. Thank you, sir. Good morning for the Nigeria. A pleasure to be here. I like two things about politicians. First, the energy with which they take their campaigns to the grassroots when they are campaigning. And two, the faith with which they carry on these campaigns, believing that they are going to get to the apex and they are going to be successful. I like the fact that your faith shows that you still have that energy. You're not exhausted. First of all, how has the campaign been so far for you? Let me start with you comrade Aragbe. Well, thank you, our host. For me, it is what I'm used to. I am a grassroots politician. My style of politicking for those who have worked me closely is quite different. Most times, you don't find me running around cycles, but I engage virtually every day in the last 25 years. Now, what that means is I have been able to put in place over a long period of time in Nigeria, a very formidable structure of young men and women over the same course we are pursuing today in Nigeria, the rebirth of Nigeria, the pursuit of a new Nigeria that will work and function for us. So for me, it's all about structure and structures about people. So I've been able to connect with a lot of people over a long period of time who believe in a cause. So this is how it has been with me. Okay, well, when you mentioned the word structure and you belong to Labour Party, it comes to mind what people were saying before now. I don't know if that's still an issue now that Labour Party has no structure. But that's matter for another day or another time, maybe in the course of the program. But you have touched on the issue that we are going to be talking about now. You've been campaigning and that means that you've been giving a lot of promises. Before you answer the kind of promises that you've been making and everybody else who is campaigning, let me go to Mr. Shockbeton. You've listened Mr. Shockbeton to all, especially the presidential candidates in the forthcoming election. And by the way, that is just less than two weeks away. Next week, we will be doing the run up for the last time before election. And then the week after that, it will be something else that we will be, okay, well, the week after that, we'll be doing the run up till Friday. And then there is something special coming up on Saturday. This is for the benefit of everybody else. We call it Ballot 2023. On the election day, everybody will be here and will try to accelerate what is going on, try to bring to the people whatever is happening anywhere in Nigeria. And there will be analysts in the house also that will be talking with us. So everybody needs to tune in on that election day wherever you are because we are online and on site if you want to watch us. Okay, now Mr. Shockbeton, you've listened to the presidential candidates as they go about promising the people. What are your takeaways, especially as it concerns the fact that we've been hearing all these promises before now? What gives you, or otherwise, a confidence that maybe this time around, the promises of the candidates might just come to pass? Okay, thanks. Thanks again for having me. I think that I like the approach that you asked this question from because really this is probably one of the most central issues to this election cycle. It's the fact that it will appear to be a battle between the old establishment, if you like, and the new inputs because that is visible. Now, the experience of Nigerians has been and that's why there's such a huge trust deficit between Nigerians and the leadership of the country is that politicians come every four years and make promises, different promises, some extremely outlandish and some maybe not so much. And the experience we have had over the years is that those promises never get fulfilled or get fulfilled in very minimal measure. And it will appear as though for a change this time we have at least one candidate who appears to have a good chance of winning, slogging it out with the old order or the oldest establishment. So one will wonder how this will play out with regards to the fulfillment of promises. So for me, what this means is that Nigerians have to interrogate the character, the antecedents of the candidates on the ballot for the presidential seats. In terms of their character in the past, how have they done with fulfilling past promises? How have they done with performing in their public service publications? How have they acquitted themselves when it comes to the issue of the public trust? How have they acquitted themselves of the issue of safe corruption? Because these are the issues we're dealing with. I always say that we do not have a capacity problem in Nigeria. I have always said this. People tend to make out and give the impression that our politicians are stupid or they're dumb or they don't know what they're doing or they're incompetent. And I've always argued that I have a lot of friends, people that I've known for years who are ministers, who are commissioners in different parts of the country and have known these people to be extremely cerebral and erudite, but they get into office and things change. So you wonder that, look, this is not a character issue. Pardon me, this is not a capacity or competence issue. This perhaps is a character issue and a systems issue. So it's important Nigerians look at this ballot as an opportunity perhaps to pick up that old order against the new. Let's we've heard the promises and the failed promises of some of these candidates in the past. Is it perhaps a time to look in another direction and see whether, if you give that other direction a chance, perhaps they will do better with fulfilling these promises. And for example, if you look at the manifestos of the three major parties, you find that the difference is perhaps not really significant. A lot of them are speaking to the key issues that we have and the basic issues that we have and have solutions that are not really significantly different. So one of the candidates has continued to say that look, it's not about the manifesto. It's about who will fulfill the promises that they made in those manifestos. So talking about promises, for example, the APC spoke very glowingly about the issue of restructuring in the manifesto in 2014. You know, it was very inspiring and then they got into office and well, you know, this is eight years later and we all know we cannot see where we are with restructuring under this administration. So that's just to give an example of when it comes to the issue of fulfilling campaign promises and the performance of some of these politicians that are, you know, just lean for our votes today. So I would advise Nigerians to be, you know, in local balance, shine OK, well, you touched on an issue that we might need to come back to, you know, the APC promises and what they have done so far later on in the program will have the opportunity to answer that. But let me go to Comrade Anselam. You have gone around making, by the way, my colleague is also waiting to also come in, but just take this one. You've gone around also campaigning and making promises. Why should the people trust you now more than they had trusted the people in the past? What do you think is the key thing in your own campaigning and your promises that will give the people confidence that you really might fulfill these promises? OK, thank you, Comrade Anselam again. Over time, we have seen politicians making promises to our people, promises not fulfilled. Now, again, for me, there could be one. The first thing is trust. People do not trust their own words. That is one. Then two, the good will to deploy the resources of nation in the interests of the people. Basically, I'm running for the Senate. Now, the task, our duty of the senator is to make enabling legislations for the good governance and otherness of the country. But we have seen a situation where the legislators make laws to amass for themselves a lot of work. Like we all know. But that said, the primary duty, I will make laws would be to oversight the executive to ensure that the laws they make are effectively implemented. Now, if you have made a law for the good governance of the country, for instance, education, for instance, road infrastructure, job creation, and there are votes for all of these issues. What they needed to do by way of promises made to their people, like for instance, now, I've identified the need of my people, often they do not senatorial district. My constituency went out to the extent we have land mass, fertile arable land, where there is a body of solid mineral deposits. Like in my constituency for instance, which is in east where I come from, it's where you have the Dan Gute and the Boas Semen factories, about the biggest in the country. So it just goes to say and to tell us the enormity of the endowment of the natural resources we have within my own enclave. We have iron ore, we have so many solid minerals, our deposition. Now, I'm saying a lot of this because I know the burden and the pains of my people today. There's massive unemployment amongst the youth of my people. Very massive. My people earlier educated to the point where we have a lot of graduates who cannot find jobs. So and this applies to the same, I mean all over the country. So for me, I have to say this several and I'll keep saying this. I'm the national organizing secretary of the academic staff union of research institutions in Nigeria, Asuri, over the last 13 years. Now in the course of engaging, we went as far as funding for the research sector in Nigeria to develop key sectors of our national economy. Like I said, I let the team that secured the 150 billion euros for which we brought in the first 40.2 million euro 2021 that are stuck in Zenit Bank. So what I'm saying all of this and I'll keep saying is to say these funds are meant for the economic development of this nation and to advance education. So reverse engineering is the sure way to replicate technologies and to develop the space. So for me, this is what I've told my people. I will not just be coming as a legislator, a senator who is going to sit in the senate to wait for salaries, but I'll be coming as one who has sourced adequate funding for the entire nation for the rapid development and industrialization of this nation. So a day north senatorial district is one of the one hundred and nine senatorial districts for which these funds are going to be deployed. Again, like we are all aware the federal government of Nigeria's account is in the red. So you need the good will of people to come and solve this situation. For instance, God willing, by the time our presidential candidate wins because that's what we are believing God for now. We have worked tirelessly for that. The labor movement working with us and the youth of this country constitute the greater number of the voting population. So we are quite confident we will win this election and the next few days, but then our people are sufficiently mobilized in a do not senatorial district. So from this way going forward, I'll be engaging the strategy we have designed for the deployment of the vote on the election day, which is the situation room of the labor party. Just a moment comrade. Now let me let me rephrase this question using movie scenarios. I watch movies a lot. For instance someone who has the interest of his family and the community at heart gets beaten by a vampire. Say if you watch vampire movies and he knows that one day he's going to turn and then he gives a silver bullet to a friend that if should I turn use this and kill me so that I do not get to the stage where I get to destroy the community. I don't know if you get my drift. Now they say power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So bio and I were just talking the other time. Not not not bio now. Mr. Shokweton just said something about having a lot of friends who are who have the capacity and they do well but when they get into office things change. Now what is that silver bullet that you're giving to your people so that when you get there and you are beaten by this bog that destroys capacity destroys the goodwill that politicians have for the people before they enter into office they can shoot you with. What is the mechanism in other words for accountability that you are presented to your people so that they can hold you back when you're getting the excesses that office holders in Nigeria a lot of them get. Basically I agree with you my desire is to dedicate even my own salaries to education of our people. That is my first commitment to them. Again that we go to show that I won't be going to the Senate because I want to go and amass the wealth of the people. Then too the people have a duty and a burden for the call. Now like I said for me I will educate my people to this extent. I'm already doing that and I'll do that even while on the seat. The people always need to exercise their own rights and their powers to recall any of us who is not doing well. Of course there are procedures but we ensure that our promises the expectation of the people are made like I said for me my own salary should be dedicated to the education of my people. That is the first commitment. Then too to ensure that I keep focus on why I go to the Senate because to make enabling laws for the good governance of Nigeria you know you talked about restructuring earlier maybe in the course of these discussions I will say more things. So our people first and foremost need to be aware they already are aware of the state of the economy the state of things and the very popular and pathetic situation. So we should not come in our gravity situation but rather to ameliorate it in such a way that there will be there will be dividends for democracy with governance education job creation for instance I'm already working on creating the first ten thousand set of jobs. I'm working with a team of consultant with the CPN to deploy a program as it affects the the cashless policy. So we'll start from the known to the unknown. All right you sound like a teacher known to the unknown. It's a phrase we like to use in the teaching profession. Okay well ladies and gentlemen we're talking with Mr Shagun Shokwiton Chairman Accountability, Candor and Transparency Network and also comrade Eragbe Anselm a do not 2023 senatorial candidate and national youth leader of the Labour Party. We're looking at election promises whether there's something there's something there for us to hope for or not. We'll take a short break. When we return I'll just hand them over like that to my colleague Bayo who is standing by to ask a few questions there. So let's take this break and Bayo when we return they're all yours. Stay with us. You're welcome back we're still talking with Shagun Shokwiton Chairman Accountability, Candor and Transparency Network and comrade Eragbe Anselm a do not 2023 senatorial candidate and national youth leader Labour Party. We're looking at election promises whether there is hope or no hope and Bayo I did say that when we return I'm handing them over to you until I can chip in. I have a few questions myself but I think they're all yours now. Thank you Eragun and I was enjoying the conversation you know and the exchanges as as it were. I would like to start with Mr Shokwiton. If you look at the rates at which political parties in recent time try to sell their manifestos you get the impression that those manifestos where they exist are probably too complicated for the ordinary person. If you allow me and I quickly go back to the Second Republic the late Jifo Bafemi Awolowo they manifesto of this party anybody will tell you what they were anybody they are the four cardinal principles free education free health integrated rural development and the fourth one that I can't remember now. They so made it so simple but now with the with the at least the four main presidential candidates it's difficult to put a finger just off the cuff on what exactly they are selling do you think they've sufficiently marketed what they plan to do and the the voters easily understand what they stand for. Okay thanks Mr Oluwake. So it's a very very interesting question and it's deep and one has to think about it carefully. So I suspect that one of the challenges that we have now is that there is a there is a disconnect between the manifestos and the intentions of the people that are putting those manifestos out and I suspect that that might be why there is no very deliberate effort to simplify you know the messaging in those manifestos. So I agree with you and this this this point you make I have actually thought about it I wondered why we don't have from the major candidates even even some of them the ones that we consider not to be major candidates the ones that are not foreigners. We haven't in a clear deliberate effort to simplify the manifesto and push it out to the public in a manner that can be understood by even you know the illiterate market women selling tomatoes you know maybe the illiterate balkanizer the effort for example to translate those manifestos into local languages you know the the major color is you know spread them across I have had cost to raise this question with some of our political actors you know in the recent times and I find that perhaps the reason for this is the manifesto is has become unfortunately has become an academic exercise. I give an example for you you know the APC for example and the some of the things that they said in the manifesto you know in 2014 I read that document and it was really beautiful you know but what we have seen happen there has been a far departure from the content of that document you know so I think that we as the people may need to begin to deliberately push the politicians in the direction of documenting their promises to us. What we now have as a political process it beats different from that time that you described you know looking back into our history you know the 70s the second republic. I think what we now have is a situation where the engagement platforms between the politicians and the people have shifted from the cerebral places where you know the content of their promises can be interrogated rigorously so places where it's just a jamboree and all they do is just to say a few things to find out the wins and the interest of their audience in those places so we see more more more the dominance of rallies you know the rallies happen all and what happens at those rallies they just dance they abuse their opinions they say a couple of things they make a few tokenistic promises and they dance some more and they go home and after that they share pictures of the crowds that they were able to put together you know so I've had engagements for example online where people have been you know disparaging each other over the crowd that they've been able to attract or otherwise and the question that I've been asking the people that are talking about these crowds is in those crowds vote at the end of the day crowds don't vote it's individuals that go to polling units in their various localities so you know um shouting about the the volume of people that you've been able to gather and put to playgrounds should not be the basis of determining who is going to win it should be um you know who is connecting more with the people and this connection I'm afraid you know has not been happening and maybe that's a half to explain why we see this lack of lack of simplicity in the in the messaging as far as manifestos are concerned and I think it's important that people you know especially Nigerians ordinary Nigerians watching us now understand the value and the importance of those documents those documents are the contracts it's the only thing that you have that you can present three years into the into into the journey or two years or one year and that you yourself can review because we forget human beings will forget it's just our nature we're not computers right so that document is what you pick up halfway into the term and say look what did this guy promise us at the beginning and then you tick off against each promise and see how far they've gone so that you can then remind them hold them to account demand that they fulfill those promises if we do not get those documents in simplified forms then I'm afraid that the the likelihood is that the people putting them out perhaps did not intend to fulfill those promises in the first place thank you very much uh Conrad I was quite impressed with your with your involvement in research and but then when you explained you know why you want to go to the Senate I was actually looking out to see if you were going to say something about how we could use our lawmaking process to empower our research institutes we have several research institutes in this country I'm not even sure if they are operating as they used to you have like Nyhot you have cream uh in in I think I do state there's one on rubber okay and the one that you are engaged with we have so many research institutes working to either improve the species of agricultural yields or do some you know really good things but then we have not seen the impact of these institutes like they used to to be so I thought you might want to look at these and say to us what exactly you would use especially given your experience you will use your position as a senator to to do for this research it is for the benefit of the country if you want to be elected yeah thank you very much sir my first priority I'm a researcher but I'm an engineer with the national agency for science and engineering infrastructure nursing basically our mandate is to replicate technology by way of reverse engineering we have all the facilities except for issues now again if you are aware the secretary general of the academic staff union of research institution professor T. C. M. Duvall who might assist us the national organizing secretary now we have been on this in the last 13 years now we have been in pursuit of the national research and innovation council bill in pursuit of it to an act now the essence of that is to once that bill becomes an act because you are aware the president federal republic inaugurated the science and technology innovation council when it came into office because he believed in the attention of revamping the research sector but somewhere along the line his aides have not been able to make do with the bills that were passed at the point for correction for an act so we are in that struggle as I speak right now there was even a demonstration to the head of service last week but what the union is saying is getting fellow Nigerians legislators high-place Nigerians research sector to make impute so that we could have this bill become an act so god willing when I come into the senate that will be the first engagement I believe go to engage so that this bill becomes an act within the shortest possible time now you know I said something earlier to see in the last 13 years I led the team of departure over the last 10 years before now and we secured for the research sector in Nigeria a hundred and fifty billion euro to fund the research sector because it is only through the research that Nigeria as a nation which is endowment and human resources can advance so we know this but we realize that without enabling law there is little or nothing we can do so this is my first priority ideally we have about 250 research institutions in Nigeria the claim you mentioned the frame all of them all of them you see the research sector in Nigeria is well composed taking care of all facets of our national life except for funding talking about funding sorry if I interject talking of funding and thanks for the information about the external source funding that you were able to attract but we also know that within the country we have seen evidence that we can actually also generate tech fund for example tech fund is a very buoyant a source of funding you know why is something like that not being contemplated for research institutes and what why is it that we are also not seen a synergy between our universities existing research institutes and the users of the product of the research you know I feel you could perhaps also look at this in your response what piece of legislation can create this nexus you know between all of these facets for the betterment of the country thank you very brilliant questions sir you have put together very powerful questions now Naricom Naricom is what we call the national research innovation commission Naricom now that is meant to be like tech fund you know tech fund is tertiary social funding but the challenge there is that fund is meant for blue sky research that's the university's kind of research you know there are two kinds of research the academic research and the practical research to industrialization which is where we come in now they theorize in the university but this tech fund is meant to fund the tertiary institution universities and the rest and unfortunately the research sector in Nigeria has not benefited and this is the misnomer in that tech fund because those who created that policy deliberately estranged the research sector so there will have been a combination of this sector the university the tertiary institutions and the research institution sector so that by the time we have the sky blue research there will go to the practical approach to solving issues which is the concrete research and development now that is why the research sector those of us in the research sector came up with this the the bill I talked about the national research institution bill for an act now when that act when that bill becomes an act and body in that act is Naricom which will be at par with tech fund so Naricom becomes the commission to implement the policy but the research sector for development of research in Nigeria so we have had this battle front and back with tech fund and the administrators so they they explained to us that it is not supposed to be so so in order for us not to continue in the unending fight was the reason we have to do what we are doing now so I'm believing God just like I say here casually I'm a deeply committed man to this course I bother to give an ally to say we have figured it out long ago we have made all the propositions we are in pursuit of that to the point of getting an act and its implementation but the issues are funding which is always an issue even for the nation now so these are whole lot of things we put together over the last 10 years to 13 years now and we were able to achieve this solution okay Konri if I just have one more question from Mr. Ashok Ito at the top of the program Yamgo made an admission to the fact that when political parties win elections and get to office there is always a disconnect between promises that they made and fulfilment of those promises and I begin to wonder actually is it that our political parties do not undertake research you know the word research coming up again now as to the actual state of the finances of the finances available to government capacity to implement and so on and so forth you know to the extent that when they are now elected where they even have an honest intention of executing they find that there's a complete disconnect between what they have been anticipating do you think there's enough research being done you know vis a vis the capability to implement what they are being whatever they are promising given the resource base of the country a call came in and interjected us but are we make do with the question to the best of my ability no sorry comrade this is for Mr Shopiton if we have some time we'll come back to you also for your own answer just for Mr Shopiton's response okay thank you sir so basically I think about there are a couple of visions at play you know with regards to this point that you have raised for me first and foremost um I I would not be you know disposed of predisposed to excusing the execution failures of our politicians on the basis of perhaps their lack of access to information and their lack of access to you know the realistic picture of the status quo and what what they are going to meet on ground I know that each issue is is real it's on ground I know this because as you and you know everybody listening would know transparency is not exactly one of the strong points of our of our governments you know over the years gaining access to information getting status updates with regards to what's happening in government within the governor's space that's very difficult even with the enactment of the freedom of information acts we for example in my organization accountability condo and transparency network we have made repeated several engagements and interventions with different MDAs over the years looking for information about specific projects looking for information about you know processes that governments have been through in executing some projects and we find that the response has always been a pushback and we find ourselves confronted with a situation where if you really want access to that information you'd have to go to court to try and enforce the provisions of the FOA so I recognize that access to information is a problem however having said that I think it's important for us to acknowledge and recognize that also that governance is serious business and seeking to to govern a country as big as Nigeria 200 million plus people a GDP hovering around 500 billion dollars you know it's no joke it's the biggest economy in Africa every out of every four black people that you meet anywhere in the world one of them will be in Nigeria statistically you know to step forward and say you want to govern you know a country this big must mean that you you are serious it must mean that you are well resourced it must mean that you are experienced it must mean it must mean that you are connected you know in the governance space and that's where the usual experience comes up you know so you have to do your homework you know you have to have gone you know whatever connection whatever means you are going to use to try and determine for example what is the state of the treasure or the state that you want to govern you know how much money do they have what is their revenue stream what is their IGR you know so at the federal level have have our candidates that are currently seeking our votes done an extensive study of the revenue profile of the federal government aside from you know what happens at the federal level but of the federal government where what are the key revenue sources what are the key expenditure expenditure heads how you know how how is the fund flow happening because if you haven't done that homework then like you said you will get into office you find yourself overwhelmed with situations that you didn't anticipate and you find yourself hampered by an ability or otherwise to deliver on those promises so for me you know personally and from my organization speaking from agonization as well I know I speak for us we will not take that as an excuse we do not we always say that people should go into this venture be prepared prepared to deliver armed with the required information and ensuring that they can deliver when when they do arrive arrive on board so okay yeah okay thanks and thank you comrade now your turn you want to give a perspective on this why is it when politicians get to office there's a big disconnect between what they promised and what they are able to deliver is it a product of not driving down their homework yeah comrade just just very briefly because we're running out of time very briefly please muted it's muted we can't hear you comrade sorry about that I was muted sorry most times briefly please politicians don't even get to read what is written so even most times again when they make promises to the people they just say these things offhand somebody come to the people I will do this first and foremost they don't even look at the policy document first they are manifesto party manifesto what does he say how many people have read their party manifesto in the first instance so first and foremost politicians must learn to read haven't read they need to understand now they go towards the policy direction of the party and work towards its realization through implementation so for instance the ideology of the labor party social democracy what does he mean really now this is welfare social welfare state the way it is education as it were in Nigeria basically should be free should be qualitative should be compulsory now the ideology of labor party is towards productivity it then means we must be able to engage the mass of our people through productive engagement agricultural mechanization solid mineral mining then build their capacity for productivity through education so as a party we must engage the education of our people we must provide health care services to our people we must be able to engage the mass of our people productively so these are the policy direction of the party by way of the manifesto so and for some of us fortunately by God's grace I'm a researcher I'm an engineer I'm a research engineer I'm a metallurgical materials engineer so I'm trying to know the weight of nation and how to put the weight of nation to use okay comrade thank you thank you for that perspective yam go back to you yes yes well we I just I just wish we hadn't run out of time but this is how much we can take from our gentlemen so that we can go for the news break and when we return it's you and I by all so I'd like to use this time to thank you Mr. Shegun Shopeton chairman accountability candor and transparency network thank you so much for coming on the program thank you and comrade Arabe and Salem a do not 2023 senatorial candidate national youth leader labor party thank you so much for coming on the program and good luck at the polls thank you sir okay thank you sir we'll take this break now and get the news after the news we'll continue with the run-up say with us