 Good evening, everyone. I apologize for the slightly late start I'm Peter hood. I'm the chairman of the select board Most of you know me. This is a regular select board meeting, but it's also a public meeting on the town hall renovation plans We're a little challenged because the person from the architecture firm is not here yet And Vic Dwyer our highway commissioner is not here yet so what I'm going to suggest is we'll go through the introductory process and the Amending of the agenda if we need to and then go to the treasurer's report if that works for you Duranda Till we get the rest of the cast of characters here. Is that okay? The other thing I would I would mention before we go any further is our normal process is to every Guests at the meeting introduce themselves rather than do that tonight when we have so many people here I would just ask if you'd like to be recognized or like to speak on any of these topics Just state your name when you get up to speak that will help help Sarah with the with the minutes The other thing I would say is for the people sitting in back of me I'll try and pay attention if you're waving your hand But if I don't see you just maybe walk around the corner and wave your hand so I Recognize you. I don't mean to exclude anybody, but I think it's better for you to be back there So the first item we need to consider and we do have a quorum of the select board now is approving the minutes of the September 19th 2023 regular select board meeting and the September 20th 2023 emergency meeting Is there a motion? Yeah, were you both at both meetings? I'm trying to think about the emergency meeting You were not I was not at the emergency meeting so we can't do that one So we can't do that one we need to defer that one So your motion is for the regular select board meeting on September 20th, right? And I can you second I can second that Was I on the 20th that's I was just trying to figure that out Oh That was okay, so yes, okay, we're here all second Okay, so the motion is to approve the minutes for both Meetings that has been moved in second at all those in favor. Please say aye. Aye anybody opposed We need to review and amend the agenda for tonight's meeting and the only Addition I have to the agenda under other businesses a brief report about Welch Park Does anyone else have any amendments to the agenda? Yeah French road, excuse me. Yes I'm sorry. I'm with the US Small Business Administration. I just wanted to mention that I was hoping to be able to speak under the Okay, and and what's your right? No, that's fine. Um, okay, what's your what's your topic as if I didn't know SBA's disaster loan program. Okay reminder to the public. Okay. Thank you Okay, so I move we approve the agenda for tonight. Okay for a second Randy all in favor. I I any opposed Okay, we've approved the agenda Okay, and um Vermont integrated architects is here. Yeah, where is she? Megan's there. Hi Megan So I'm going to yeah, she's going to come here I'm going to present and she's going to come in the presentation. Okay. That's a perfect. So I'm going to start it out and then So come on down as they say Okay, well, thanks everybody for coming tonight I'm Liz Scharf I'm a select board member and I have sort of been on this town hall committee as well I'm here with Vermont integrated architecture architect Megan and We also have Dave Meghita who is has been on the town hall committee as well The other person who's not here tonight is Sandy Levine who has been Helping out in this process so we're going to take you through a short little presentation and then kind of get to the the meat and potatoes so to speak of Of the work that the IA did but I'm going to sort of lead us as to why why we're here today So Why town hall why now so back in 2020 you'll see I also have used some Acronyms that will be used throughout the presentation But don't hesitate to shout out. What does that mean again? Because there's lots of acronyms So in 2020 that was the town meeting that we had right before COVID if you recall and There was a lot of chatter about wow, you know, we've got a big grader coming in We've got problems with the town hall. We've got these bigger expenses coming in We'd really like to Have a better sense as a public what we can expect to come down the road so So we decided to embark on what's called a capital improvement plan and we applied for a municipal planning grant Through central Vermont Regional Planning Commission and we were awarded that grant and then in early 2022 that plan was completed and it's now used regularly by the Middlesex Budget Committee and Randy is on the Budget Committee and occasionally, you know, if we have questions about when does this truck need to be repaired? He just brings it right up out of the sea. I pleased or Replaced I need to be repaired all the time exactly And so I think I'm just gonna stand up so I can see you guys a little better So the town hall was then identified as a high priority line because when we were going through and talking with all of the people Who had a stake in what are called our capital? Items like buildings and equipment The town hall was identified as a priority item for things that you know, we're gonna cost us money down the road So this what what did we already know about the town hall? so I was looking back at some of the Town those what are they called Sarah the things that you the reports right literally during June lakens time There was a whole section about The need to have a new town hall right and that was like 20 plus years ago because of all the problems that it had that We really have not worked on toward Toward resolving And we know that the radon levels have exceeded safe levels inside the vaults that the vault is overcrowded Let me just take this down so you can see some of the pictures I Guess you can't see him. I guess that doesn't come down on there for some reason anyway the The vault is overcrowded. That's a picture of Sarah there with Vault that it can no longer hold anything because it's filled up There are plumbing issues which prevent us having larger gatherings We used to have events here like town meeting and such but we really can't do that anymore It's not ADA compatible or compliant. I should say there right now. It's not compliant You'll see some pictures that show that But our but our lift often breaks down It gets it's hard to repair and even getting a wheelchair in you can't because there's like, you know There's the pavement and such just doesn't allow for people to safely go go in and out on their own The building is drafty and not weatherized And our heating system Literally can no longer be serviced with replacement parts. It's so old And then the electrical systems are outdated in that capacity and really this space as we know it We've got this big space here It's just not very conducive for smaller gatherings or small office for privacy And the town historical society has really expressed an interest in having some space where they could display things and and make it more of like a place where people want to come and Spend time or have meetings and visit and feel like they can talk with town hall staff and have some privacy So there is our town hall today, I'd really like to get rid of this little thing Do you have control? Are you the host? No, so the host can grab it and move it over to the other side if you want to minimize it Can you do that Eric? If you can minimize the Attendant attendant picture. Yeah, that thing there. Yeah Yeah, okay, yeah, that's perfect. Yeah So this is our town hall today. I mentioned you'll see like that. It's hard to get in That's the door that takes you to the elevator from the outside. That's our Worn old heating system. These are our windows as you can see They're just sort of old-fashioned windows and just some of the spaces that we would be looking at Modernizing and making more efficient for the for the staff So in in short really there's a lot and this is how Dave put it Dave McGeeta The reliability cannot be guaranteed on these major things like our heating system our electrical or septic and our ADA compliance So what we did next is in the fall of 2022 we applied for another municipal planning grant for the Middlesex Town Hall Architectural study so we advertised and a request for proposal for the study. We received five to six bids from architect firms Narrated down to two interviewed both of them. This was our subcommittee. It says who's we anyway? So that was me Liz Scharf Sandy Levine Dave Dave McGeeta and Sarah Merriman and Dave came on as sort of our expert I reached out to him before we even did this Because we knew we were going to want to partake in this Dave has experienced as a Say what it is Dave facility administrative officer chief administrative officer at Norwich University so he dealt a lot with facilities and new buildings and he understands the process of what it takes to Start to either renovate a building or to to put in like a new building and the costs and what to expect So his knowledge has been has been key to this whole process because we have someone who actually Understands a lot of this language and things that someone like a layperson like me may not as much When we're working with like VIA right Dave can sort of interpret some of that stuff and that's really helpful So we received the municipal planning grant that covered most of the cost of the town hall study And we also at that time conducted a town-wide survey with 243 responses, which is a really strong response for a town like Middlesex Including hundreds of comments about the town hall And then in February 2023. So this calendar year was our first meeting with VIA We also had in the very beginning some other interested parties that included the energy committee who we have a couple of representatives from here today And the historical society we've got two representatives from there as well And then we also really involved a lot of the town hall employees because they're the people who are here every day They're the people who use this space. So we really included a lot of feedback from from them when VIA was working with them. They they were like the the people the go-to people because they had the most at stake So the overall work scope of work for VIA was we asked them in our RFP to come up with Sort of three scenarios renovating the existing town hall renovating and adding an addition to the town hall or building a new town hall at a new site So I'm not going to go through what the scope of work is but this is essentially From February to today and where we are right now is number 12 present the final feasibility study to the community at the town hall Meeting so between the original kickoff meeting with them. There was a lot of other stuff that happened They came here. They did, you know research on the building they They we met with them as a committee and various sort of smaller meetings and Then We have Megan here. I think this is where we are right now Oh, this was I took that out But there is a kind of cool they came in and did a 3d scan of the building to really get a sense of the size and shape So they could get the real measurements of the building without having to let go ahead of tape measure I think that's what that does doesn't it? Yeah, it gets it gets the real footprint of the building and So before Megan takes over what we what we're going to show you tonight Is the town hall renovation? So the committee and the town employees met with VIA and we all agreed that a renovation would meet all the requirements and code issues And it would be the most affordable option and that even with the addition We didn't see a value add to it. So we're really looking at how can we present to the town? the town people you the voters a responsible and energy efficient building that meets the needs of the employees meets the needs of the community And is in you know the 21st century and built to last for the next how many years Dave 50 years before we have to worry about this again, right? So what we are going to see next is we're going to hear from Megan who she and her team Really worked on what she's going to explain to you right now Can you all hear me okay? I'm Megan and Zinsky. I'm a partner in our project We are very excited to have the opportunity to work with your committee And really were I have to say kind of blown away and impressed by the response of the community survey We often do community surveys with groups and your response from the community was really sort of knocked it out of the park So you get it's pretty exciting to work with such an engaged community. So thank you for that So when we started Liz already hit on some of these but Our main goals for the project one was to address the Deficiencies and then another section of our goals for this feasibility study was to assess programmatically and operationally What does the town need and so Liz hit on this could we meet it in the existing building wouldn't addition be required or Does it make more sense to move somewhere else? So we did study that we did review of an existing conditions We reviewed prior assessments and reports and existing materials And so in addressing the deficiencies it was mechanical It was the accessibility items water migration into the building especially in the back rear corner here at the lift Radon which Liz mentioned and then energy efficiency When we took a look at the functionality We really took a deep dive with the various stakeholder groups looking at your community survey and then with also the staff And we developed what we call a program and so the space program is kind of a laundry list of Square footages and space needs throughout that basically say, you know, we need this many seats for Recording and we need this many seats for office staff and like this is the about the size of a meeting area So we worked through that and then in our early concepts we did develop multiple concepts and We found that we were actually able to meet in the existing footprint all of those needs For both now but then moving into the future we did look at an option that did put an addition off to this side and To be honest it was adding cost and not really achieving much else for us So we then pivoted to developing this renovation plan so what you see here on the screen is a site plan and so I'm gonna call north up on the page. You can see the north arrow in the lower right hand corner But I'm gonna refer to Project north as sort of up on the page. So this is the existing town hall You can see it's a reorganization of parking to the east and over by the existing garage And we have a one-way circulation path That's coming in front of the building and east around the rear of the building and then Circulating back out onto the street and the primary reason for doing this you can notice that we've introduced accessible parking sort of towards the rear of the building just over here on the site and What we're doing on this east facade of the building is actually raising grade and so this Sort of semicircular path that's coming down from that accessible parking into the front door. It's just that it's an accessible route So someone could come and if they have mobility Issues they would be able to park in this accessible parking get on the sidewalk migrate down to the entrance of the building so the Most meaningful change to the exterior of the building Architecturally is the removal of the front stairs and so we have a very small addition Which is that little blue box on the front which creates a new at-grade entry down there So it's a glassy enclosure. It's what we call an energy vestibule So it allows for folks to come in sort of knock the snow off and mud off your boots And then be able to migrate in and it has two doors in it And so it helps with energy efficiency and comfort on the inside of the building And so that area in the front of the town hall here is depressed And so we tried to create a little plaza so it might be like for voting There might be folks out there sort of handing out flyers. It's also community opportunity And also an opportunity to gather or sit and to meet other folks in the town So that's what the little plaza is you can also circulate around the front of the building There's a small set of stairs that then access on the west side of the building a sidewalk along the row of parking and Towards the southwest corner there we did include a spot for electric vehicle charging so From the site then we can move to the next slide which shows kind of the overall of the floor plan Let's control maybe a bite Okay, so here are the two floor plans of the proposed renovations to the building on the on the left side is the lower level renovated Area of the lower level so getting back to just kind of high level the goals that I started with so On mechanical for mechanical systems. It is a replacement It is removal of all of the mechanical systems in the building and replacing those with an all-electric fossil fuel-free system so that would be air source heat pump system with Baseboard backup heat for that and A high efficiency energy recovery ventilator, which is bringing fresh air into the building and it's highly efficient And so it's healthier indoor air quality for inhabit for the folks Working in the space and utilizing the space And with the addition of the air source heat pump also brings the opportunity for cooling And so it offers the opportunity that as we see these warmer days Town hall could be a cooling center for the community which We heard as a potential opportunity or need For residents of the community For plumbing I'll get into sort of the nitty-gritty of the the plans a little bit more But for plumbing it's a full replacement of new supply and waste and then Replacement of all fixtures throughout so low-flow plumbing fixtures So also reaching for improved efficiency there and improved health For those various systems Electrical it would be new distribution. I already mentioned the EV charging new fire alarm system for life safety and also new LED lighting throughout For accessibility we are including a new lift and so if you look at the left plan The the plan on the left is the lower level and so again if we start sort of at the top of the page It's okay We start at the top of the page you can see those two doors that are on that the right and the left of that Best you know that is how you could enter the building which we reviewed in the site plan Then coming into the entry There's an option that you can go up the stairs to this level where we are now or you could proceed down the hall And the lift is just down the hall at the end of the hallway So if you needed to go upstairs that would be your means to get there and then if you're coming in that hall and You move into where the the current clerk's desk is downstairs Would be repurposed as a work area and so this is a small meeting room The vault stays where it is radon would be addressed within that area and we included a second vault which we'll see sort of further south in the building to address that issue of Greater capacity So then as far as the layout down here There's a open office space sort of on the the middle sort of right side of the floor plan here the clerk financial And so this would be where the town clerk would be New and I do not I can I can point with the I could yeah, do you have the cursor on there? Oh, yeah, I could yeah, I can point on the screen, but then people on yeah, why don't you point? So clerk financial area here, so this is open new windows in this area and so by those grading changes on the exterior We're able to expand the windows down there should bring more natural light in so that lower level wouldn't be so dark and with all of this Clerk financial area here being open. It would make the whole level feel much more open and inviting So then we have two offices here. There's a recording room with copier in it And then over here, there's the listers and the planning and zoning office Then further down the page This is the drinking fountain Here is the second vault for the increased capacity There's storage here that is accessible off the listers and planning and zoning So that would be a storage to support their needs new accessible water closet here You'll notice that we're sealing off. This is the existing door to the vault that has the water intrusion issues So we're sealing that off and weatherizing that to be able to treat and deal with the water intrusion issues there We do have a new sort of water closet if you will for utilities on the outside so that the Water tanks could be moved into that space Secondary stair that goes upstairs. We've got server and electrical It's then moving upstairs I'm gonna Again start sort of at the top of the page here. So as if you came in the front door downstairs You came up the stairs here and you come around the corner. There's a lounge or a seating area And then the the existing door that goes out would remain for historic purposes But would not be operational or functional out there But it's more a response to the historic fabric of the building then moving into this area. We created Sort of like a four-chamber in anti-space and this is where you're thinking could be display space for the historic Historical society so displays on either side and also We did alternate layouts of furniture to show that in a layout of voting if folks came in Register and sort of check in here and then could move through this space where the voting was and back out There's also the addition of a small meeting room in the corner here and a closet And then you'll see that we've really tried to maintain This space as much as possible as a large meeting room And so we have it shown in this layout as a lecture style, but we also did Multiple layouts to show how it could function for voting Purposes for meetings such as this one or for a large sort of public event in the back There's a small kitchenette Another water closet with a small janitor's closet off of it another storage closet here existing stairs Remain down to the lower level and storage here. There is an over this whole zone is Mechanical mezzanine so up here we have high ceiling space, but it's within the thermal envelope And so that's where the ERV fan coil unit The ERV sorry not the fan coil unit the ERV would be located So from an energy perspective We also are all the windows on the lower level would be replaced with new triple glazed windows the windows on this level The base case was restoring the existing historic windows and then having a historic storm Added to the exterior to improve that energy efficiency We carried that as a base bid and we also priced it as an ad alternate to replace all the windows And so allowing some flexibility as we move into future design phases to assess, you know, where the greatest value is and so the envelope For both levels would be opening up the walls Re-insulating them and building a wall to the interior to Increase the insulation level and also improve the air sealing And I think that's that's all I've got for now And the lift can you clarify that's just like one of those it's not like an elevator, right? It's like a thing that it's it's similar to this. Yeah, it's so it's it's a lift It's a little limited use limited access. So it's not like a full elevator. It's a smaller more It feels more scale appropriate for this Yes, the technology has it has improved and I think also You know where the lift is placed now also allows I mean currently someone who visits the facility Needs to have access or needs to somehow contact someone that they could come out and meet them Which is not necessarily meeting the intent of the ADA law And so in this case someone would be able to arrive at the site themselves Migrate, you know move down into the main entry move into the front door get themselves into the lift move upstairs And another thing related to that the way that we've arranged the doors on the two levels related to security does allow for Multifunctional you could have an after-hours event sort of up here Or the lower level could be locked out or vice versa This could be locked out and just the lower level could be open But that was a main intent for us with the location of the lift was to keep it interior and To also allow for someone to be able to move about on their own And I forgot to mention but we do over here have a very small food pantry closet Right there that would be accessible from the exterior One of the things that people have talked about is you know after we had had a food shelf here for many many years In middle school at the church and then during COVID People stopped using it people just weren't going in place and it was hard to get volunteers So we shut the food shelf down sort of as a temporary measure and then the place burned So, you know, we don't actually have a food shelf space And so this gives us a little opportunity for something like in essentials closet if someone needed to come in and get things You know that like, you know canned food or toiletries or things like that that Potentially that could be done and whether and that's just down the road, but they put that spot in there So we We don't know yet, I mean we haven't even So Marge that's it remains to be seen but we wanted to put something in there As a sort of a placekeeper to have some space in case we wanted to have a food a small food pantry for the public So we still so I have a couple more slides that talk about So I don't know if I should just finish with that or does someone have specific questions around the design that we should ask And So ask that question of the the civil engineer sort of In our understanding of the the flood in the water intrusion issues back here are more related to ground water Rather than surface water and surface flooding due to the grade of land And so we do not believe that that isn't an issue or a concern But for the mechanicals that are down there The air source the exterior air source units are actually proposed to be mounted on the wall on the outside here There's the portico that you kind of go in to access the lift right now They are mounted high up on the wall So they if we ever did get floodwaters up there They would be high out of that and then the ERV system is all up here. So that's also high and up so the Infrastructure that would be down there that would potentially be at risk would be furnishings and any of Finishes down there The server which I think we have ample space for the server. So I think racking of that to keep it high off the floor I mean we're recommending To all clients that let's not put things on the ground anymore Let's you know mount them up as high as possible. So we are paying attention to that But we think the specific issues here related to grading is More ground water rather than sort of flood waters I don't believe Chris Who knows what's coming Sir, do you have any knowledge about that or anyone else? But I don't believe this building has ever been impacted by slide that we know Other questions anyone Thank you, Patty So the vault areas which I'm assuming will still hold the the old land records and town records That have any additional like flood kind of protection areas like when that wall closes off With that area be able to stay a little bit drier than It's a possibility that we could look into and I can share a couple things that we're doing with other Projects that are in flood prone areas at this stage in the game. We are budget building and sort of feasibility Investigating so I would say that we didn't necessarily go to that level But I would think in the next phase of design as we're continuing to investigate We would review those even further to make more detailed recommendations one easy Sort of precaution that can be put into place is you know They're called flood gates and they're removable pieces that it's essentially expandable and so we you know They're a few hundred dollars and you could purchase those and have them sort of stowed in one of these storage areas And if there was a risk of flooding you could bring it in and those could be put in the vault doors You know some places actually put them in you know windows that so even as the precaution to help prevent against Having to replace carpeting or things like that. But again, I do think elevation is on our side here But we don't know what's coming in the future unfortunately The only other thing I guess I would suggest in looking at this So we just consider finding a space for the computer server up here Sure, sure Just wondering if back up power generation is considered in this design at all We do not have generator or Battery Included currently, but it is definitely something that could be carried as an allowance in the future and developed to move forward Yeah, I mean I think with with the different events that We're gonna be experiencing in the future and whatnot using you know having places for residents to go and extended power outages Something that we should all be thinking about It was something that we discussed a fair amount as a committee and there are different levels of sort of Resilience there and sort of what we're trying to respond to and so I know we talked about you know if we're gonna do backup power and Generator power there is the level that would essentially keep lights on and allow for people to show up and kind of do business and That is sort of a lower level if we elevate to the level of being sort of an emergency shelter Or one of then there are other additional parameters that go along with that So it's a more robust system It's a more expensive system and I think where we left it with the committee was that may be something to Consider and to evaluate as we develop it further and we should as we're evaluating that value Also ask ourselves the question of is this the place for that and how many could this house or would there be another place? So I think it's a it's a really good open question and one that's been touched on but would be probably Developed further yes, that's an additional idea about that So we have a kitchen at the building for now the generator this gets to exactly what you were talking about We ought to find space for at least a small shower Well, that's if we turn it into a shelter because Romney is Romney a shelter Yeah, Romney has showers and things like that. No, I understand but I'm just I'm just saying you know to Megan's question of How far do we go? That's just something else to think about yeah, it seems like a balance there of the investment of what it would take to get Us to that level in this facility Is that a priority yeah, yes, Sarah I think that was going to be another question for me is is we have a very marginal water system and a very marginal sewer system Is there anything in this too? We do that. I think that's important. We've been suffering with that for a long time Um, I believe we we have an allowance to replace the or we have an alternate to replace the leech field and looking at sort of looking at the uses that are currently here and how and the upgrades that we're making we Opted to make that as an alternate so that we could assess cost overall project feasibility If Money is available and if that is affordable then I think that is something to pursue But I think our feeling was there are a variety of Facilities just like this one in a variety of communities around their historic facilities And so when you have a larger event, they're often pumping Right before that event to sort of address their septic issue So if somebody was going to rent the hall for something they would do that So there's I think a strategic question for the town moving ahead Do we want to invest in this? Or would we be do we feel that it's appropriate to do it handle it operationally with this pumping And it could also be something like well, let's bite off this first See how we're using it and then in the future we could upgrade the septic So we're trying to leave lots of options open Knowing that there's immediate needs But then also, you know understanding construction costs over time and really kind of wanting to be able to deliver and allow some Flexibility so that the town can make informed priorities This building does not require a sprinkler system because of its use and its size We did also get at alternate pricing for a sprinkler system water supply and a fire pump It's a very big number So we we got that information. I think as the design team we said You're not going to do this because you're not going to like the price And nor is it required And that's important. That's an important piece. And so I think the other thing I would just I would just mention for the record is We are in the very very very Initial phases of exploring municipal water system in the village So if all of a sudden we add the municipal water system, then all of a sudden the sprinkler system isn't Such an unbelievable thing So it's something to keep an eye on. I don't know how far that's going to go. Right Lowry had a question. Yep. Lowry. Yeah, thanks So with the mechanical ventilation system take care of the radon issue It would not there would be a separate radon mitigation and in this initial feasibility We did not um have the testing or the assessment. And so we've we've gone from The information that was shared with us about what we know historically about this So our recommendation for the next phase was to do more testing gather better Informations that we could design. Um what that system is to address the radon and the vault um, but we Would recommend that the radon be mitigated independently and not relying on the mechanical system That would be sort of a a secondary assist But to be clear That scope is isolated to the vault The radon mitigation scope the radon mitigation Our recommendation would be if you're getting somebody out here to do the assessment Let's have them go ahead while they're here Have them test the lower level so that we can fully understand What is What the levels are. I mean, there's a variety of Sub slab work that needs to occur downstairs for new footings for posts The new vault back here actually has to be excavated so that it could have its, you know, foot thick Slab underneath it. So there's a fair amount of disturbance to the slab that needs to happen so I think we'd want to be armed with this information first of What are the radon levels? And so that when we're opening up that slab we could say, okay Well, let's go ahead and put something in here or while we're cutting slab Let's cut a little more and do the right thing. Um, so I think we should assess the whole level And just follow so the radon issue is a priority. I don't understand so there would probably be some Significant cost in addition once that exploration is done To mitigate the radon so whatever's proposed here doesn't include that. So I assume it's some, you know, could be a sizable number That's correct. It's not included currently. Um, remember if we included a line item on owner's costs, um You did My my experience with radon mitigation in Vermont Is that it typically is not that horrendous? I mean probably what would be is some penetrations Through the concrete, maybe some pike being under the concrete and then exhaust fans So, you know, might it could it be $10,000 $15,000? I'm sure it wouldn't be Wouldn't be like the sprinkler system So what we've done is in addition to the cost estimate for the bricks and mortar We also worked with the committee to outline sort of like here Like the bricks and mortar piece of it is one thing that you pay for of course There's the architects the engineers and there's a whole slew of owners costs things like permitting and so testing that occurs During construction in those owners costs We also have line items carried there as recommendations and placeholders to help with this budgetary planning So we do have a line item for the assessment and then we have a placeholder for what that radon would be So it's not in the cost estimate, but it is sort of budgeted for And I would echo and agree with that a lot of these mitigation measures Most typically that we see it could be as simple as a perforated pipe in the stone layer underneath the slab And as long as it's got a negative path out, you know in few cases They actually require like an inline fan or something like that So I think in order to understand the magnitude of the issue that we have here That's going to help us on design that system, but I don't think it's hundreds of thousands of dollars Is there anything that is being done in the building that would Have an impact if the sewage issue was to be addressed later That would make it easier or harder to do that in cases Even though we don't know what that sewage issue will be in the future But is there going to be any changes that could be done to make it easier if that is going to be addressed in this plan? I don't think so But I think it's something that we would investigate in a future phase related to all the site work that we're doing out here I think that would be something that we'd investigate with our civil team and looking at the inverts and the elevations of does it make Sense to replace a line while we're doing that work So that we're all set up for that and a similar vein I would say depending on how this project progresses and how the potential for Water coming to the site also progresses It may make good sense for us to have a stub or a line or something out there that it's like Okay, we've got provision in place that when water comes and if we want to add a sprinkler in the future Or put this on town water So I think those are things that we would continue to investigate in a future phase I believe we have two currently in the plan Yeah, I think I think there's a possibility for that and I think it then Relates back to the electrical service for the building and so I think We're at a balanced point of you know Upgrading electrical service or not and where is that sweet spot? So I think those are the value add detailed questions that we would continue to investigate Yeah, and I think Dave when we were looking at this plan and Megan We weren't looking to like have town meeting here, right? We never wanted to expand this to be able to house more than I think it was 40 people. Maybe something like that So, you know, we're looking at community meetings meetings like this, right? Some are maybe having a small like Get together or something like that and renting the town hall, but not to like bring 200 people in And you know in terms of things like people wanted to rent it for an event They could also rent a port-a-let or something or like you said drain the septic before they break before they had an event Any more questions for Megan before I move into the sort of some ideas on how to fund this Yeah, I guess I would have the next question. So, um This is is still an early stages, right? So is is the next step for sort of fine tuning would be to continue to work with the the committee? Um Liz and I'm thinking in particular like just like display cases and Yeah, so that's like the next and what do you call that Dave? Design development phase Yeah Yeah Yeah Okay So here's the big uh, the big sticker price and this is in today's dollars and we know that prices are Change rapidly, right? I mean they they go up. All right. They don't go down and and and so, um Really we we landed on renovation one because You know as part of our town plan one of the the when when you as town people pass the town planned It's to keep, you know, I have a have this village be a municipal center. So That means where our government is and so keeping the town here also Adheres to the town plan and it's it's Cheaper in terms of the actual, you know square footage cost new construction to renovation You'll see that these two you'll see the asterisk down there on the 2.5 million It does not account for the sale of the property or purchase of new land to put a different Building on So two million dollars, right That's today. So, you know, we might say 2.5 million, right? and so So we did actually sort of think about it in terms of like let's just throw out the number 2.5 million, right? So right now, um, there's some important funding that's available that is sort of once in a lifetime funding That is uh from the federal government and it's the municipal energy resilience program Where municipalities can pay can can apply for grants for up to 500 000 for existing buildings This was another reason why we thought renovation made more sense because there's funding available that wouldn't otherwise be available for new buildings um And and this this funding is very time sensitive I I have it on a different file on my computer here if anyone wants to know later um, but essentially, um This funding is going to open up in early 2024 And we are in the process right now of working with The first phase of this funding, which means that we are having a level two I guess energy assessment of our town hall and our fire department That is a free thing, but we have to do it before we apply for murk funding um And so that hasn't been scheduled yet, but we will have someone come in and do a comprehensive study of our heating system and How things are set up for weatherization and then give us a recommendation of what to do next They're going to do that for the fire department as well, which also needs a new heating system um, they um So so this funding if we want to if we as a town decide that we're going to renovate this building This funding will be crucial to cover the costs of things like Weatherizing the building potentially putting in those you know windows downstairs Heating systems right in I think that 500,000 could be spent very quickly And it is sort of a first come first serve. So like the sooner we do it the more likely we're going to get more of that funding Um, I forget how many millions they have available, but they don't have 500 for every town in vermont The other thing is the aid there are ADA grants For fixing your elevators or getting new elevators. Um, and I think those I forget this is up to x number I think it's like 80,000 maybe or something like that But I think it could cover a lot of the costs some of these grants may have I don't think the murp has It might have a match, but it's It does yeah, and it also allows for the ADA Compatible, okay Contributions out of the murp as well. Okay. That's great. Yep And then there's also some and these are smaller But like historic preservation grants that might be able to like maintain some of the historic integrity of the building And that might be storm windows right on the and keeping the windows, but putting up storms and instead So, uh, darinda who's the treasurer She and I did meet with the vermont bond bank to just get a sense of like, what's the next step? Like I've never done this before so I don't you know really know what we do next And he gave us um a scenario of like in today's dollars if we were to do a one and a half million dollar bond Did he do two million or one one and a half million one and a half million dollar bond? What would that look like um and um And so I I can't give you that number because everyone's house is different But like per hundred thousand is sort of how you look at it like or no per hundred how how much you pay Um and I'm not going to say like right now. Oh, it's going to cost me 400 dollars a year But over a 30 year he gave us a 25 and a 30 year plan It might be for someone whose house like mine is assessed at I think um 300 maybe or something like that it might be around 400 a year that I I would be paying on a bond for 30 years Ideally it'd be great to get rid of the fire station bond and kind of replace that bond because we're all paying on a fire station right now And take up a different bond right for the for the town hall So that it's not such a big um shock to to folks Because remember that this is a mute. This is the part of our municipal taxes not our education taxes So you don't get a tax break on this per se like you might on your education taxes And then I also think that we need to have a strong community fundraising piece of this So picture yourself The chris mcvay copy center, right? Because chris has donated some some level of money. I just threw out 200 000 I think it's a reasonable request to see can we get sponsorships from the people maybe some businesses In town or private donors who want to help raise the money and put a stake into Sort of this piecing together these fundings and this is very typical for something like a town hall where you do have a Sort of philanthropic piece of the fundraising so that you can alleviate some of the tax burden For the taxpayers and then the vlct the vermont league of cities and towns Has a list of all the grants and fundings that can be available to help us piece this together There are some things also coming down the road like sort of low interest loans for some energy things that if we Surpass or don't get all of the murk money that we can get very low interest loans on doing some energy things So this is a huge This is a huge project the next step. I don't even know if I have any I So We basically what I and I haven't seen the application and no one has so I don't know what the application looks like But I think the intention is that we would be And I'll just put it out there. We're going to use this murk money Whether I said we're going to use this murk money whether there's a renovation or not, right? We're not passing up Money like this The towns they want to give the money away. They know we're on this like I've been talking with them for months about this They want to support projects like this Um, so it's as competitive as the people in the town who pull together to do the work To make it happen, right? And if we have people who are willing to like Like this is what we really need. We need to hire a consultant Who you know, and we have some we have a little bit of money from murk. That's this like pre money We have about $3,500 To help us navigate the funding sources As well as apply for the murk grant, right? That's what this money can be used for Because we have to leverage this money. We know our heating system is failing We know we could use some weatherization here This money is here and it's here now and it makes sense to do a renovation at the same time Now is the time people it really is like it's not in 10 years. It's now because of this funding Yes, the state's the state's looking for basically shovel ready projects. Yes You know the the closer you are to Having a plan to move forward the more competitive you are in that and that being said there's 45 million dollars Okay, and the $500,000 is a is a cat So it's up to $500,000. But I think Liz and I have been talking with folks involved with the murk Funding stream before they even knew what they were doing with it. So, right? Liz since day one Randy and I have been really talking about this and so they know and they know that like We're serious, right and they know that we have these needs, right? Um, and um, I mean, we're even talking with them about can we If the guy comes in and does the fire station review And we need a heat we need something in there Next week, but he's you know, he's recommended something can we retroactively add it to our grant and they're like we think so, right? Like there's some possibilities. They want they want municipality businesses to buildings to um To improve their heating systems in an in an energy efficient way um So the next thing is so so the next thing is really um Whether or not we apply for a bond at the moment We it would cost about 42,000 in today's dollars to do the next phase design development Which is really getting more into the nitty gritty of what it would look like Um, so those pictures would become more detailed. Um, and what do we call it again the designs? Design development, right? um The vote and I have to go back to my notes And I know I don't want to because we're already over time But basically you can you can vote on a bond up to a certain amount of money And not actually take the bond out right away, right? It's it's more like we would present to the voters And I think our my timeline is thinking Um Potentially next november I or could be as early as as town meeting To to request from the town a bond. It doesn't mean that we take that bond out right then It means we've been approved And then the bonds go out twice a year in the spring and in the fall Um, and so they're they're on a time because they get bundled the state bundles bond requests um, and so If we took out a bond then you would start to spend it, right? You would start to spend it on like your next phase development or you'd start to spend it on um, you know Breaking ground whatever it is that we would be doing next but so because of the Because of the murk funding and pairing this so nicely with the renovation This is We can't spend the next year contemplating this This is something that we need to be spreading the news about with our fellow community members and getting on board with this idea of Of spending some big money That's not going to get smaller ever It's only going to get worse And more expensive Um, so that is the presentation As I know it and I can't tell you how much it's going to cost you personally I think just to follow up on what Liz was just saying You know, there's a whole lot more funding Down the road that we don't even know about yet. So um, you know, I I want to point that out because I mean, I think we've been pretty consciously looking at what's out there and And you know going after whatever we possibly can to make this as least The least burdensome for the residents as possible so And it started with literally doing the renovation like that. It's it's very you know, there's nothing grandiose about this But it brings it to it, you know, it's something that's fiscally responsible Um, and frankly necessary, it really is right You know that our town has like a 240 year history of not being proactive And not doing anything and making up for things because we have So I would like to commend the committee for the work they put into it And I think it is our chance to draw together as a community and say if you want to be middle sex And you want to have an identity, you know Placed to to share together, you know, this may be the time here here Now now Anything else anyone obviously obviously there's A lot more that needs to happen for this to happen um when And if we will have additional public meetings is yet to be determined, but we'll certainly be Discussing this it's elect board meetings as we as we go along and I have to envision especially As we get into the design development phase that we would definitely have more public meetings at least one And this this presentation will be put on the what's next middle sex page, which has a town hall page to it And that's that's also on the middle sex website, right? What sex middle sex link is on the I think it is Uh, yeah Yeah, or at least say on front porch form that it's where it's available Yes I mean obviously obviously the other gigantic question which is which is down the road is How do we operate while this renovation is going on do we set up a Tant do we move into the old fire department who knows what we do so yeah Oh, no, we'll we'll figure it out but Yeah, there are challenges I have But I agree. I really appreciate the work That the committee did and uh, obviously there's more work to be Yeah, but but thank you and and also I presume you would welcome additional participation if people were interested Yes, for sure. I mean and I think we are really, you know, because we're all, you know Working and trying to do volunteer stuff at the same time You know, the the big the next sort of big job is Figuring out how to piece how to apply for the murk and piecemeal sort of what we know is going to be murk Accessible in this and also dealing with like asking for a bond like those are those are the big things that have to happen Are we going to fund that I don't know the answer there's no money there's no 42,000 in this year's budget to do it So we got to fund the money somehow Ideally we keep the process moving along I agree David. I'm just I'm just saying there is no money in this year's budget and There's no extra 42,000 that I'm aware of so we've got to figure out whether we can Whether we can apply for the murk and draw down money. I mean, I guess that would be the Quickest easiest thing. Yeah, I don't think murk would cover that but But but that's really where a bond comes in right which is like, yes, sir On the uh town meeting warning from march and it passes. Yeah, can't you just isn't that enough time to make it to It's only within we're not that far out. We're six months Yeah We're six months from march right now I don't know that Yeah, that's right. It's about right. We're going to do a bond and give it a take a week Right, I know just as a We're going to stumble Stumble on something. Yeah, we haven't seen yet There is some very very good news that that news is They looked at the structural and there are no problems there. Oh, those are this age. That's that's a huge thing The other huge thing for us is that who was able to fit within this building I agree and That's a lot of hard work by the community and by my architects and their consultants So I would just repeat myself. It would be great if we could continue with design development. I understand your I don't know The gita conference room It would only be $45,000 and that would give us the money to go ahead with the design development But I mean there may be I mean The money that's coming into this state right now is crazy. So might there be grant money available to To go ahead with this if we can find it We'll do it, but I agree. I I hate I hate to think we're gonna, you know Basically, sit on our hands for six months They should other municipalities have been using that for ventilation and some of the Our overspend our funds Well, we haven't I just you know, we just have to understand that we've taken out of three months What we're dealing with with these floods Yeah, it is they and we are we are working day and night Derrinda is fussing her butt trying to figure out how we're gonna get that money back So we're doing everything we can but it's really This came in a very bad this this request is likely coming at a terrible time If we well we don't give FEMA we will we will we're gonna get But but Sarah's right. We have taken out a three million dollar Lonell to pay for our bills until FEMA case us. So and the other the other issue was FEMA is There's at least a 25 percent match or the well a minimum of a 25 percent match could be less Yes, so that's where if it's if it's three million dollars 25 of three million dollars is a big Unbudgeted expense. So we're trying to deal with that and all that ARPA money that people think is floating around there could be sucked up awful fast Yeah, sure could be Sure could be so You know, we've got to make the money we've got to make the money work to make this happen But it seems like there are opportunities and I I agree. Uh, David, we should be pursuing them and I know, uh, Randy and Lazar I just wanted to say thank you all it's been an absolute pleasure to work with your community Your committee is a true gift to your whole community. I mean they work their their tails off and it's been It's been really really fun. And so we look forward and hope that there's an opportunity Uh to work with you in the future and as you look ahead to design development Please keep communicating with us to give us a little bit of a heads up Just so that we can hold that schedule, uh, because we really would love to be partner. Um, so thank you for great Well, thank you for coming up to be with us tonight. We appreciate it So we're now going to move where we've used up 45 minutes of our other time I'm sorry We need to do the bid thank you No, let's More or less get back to our schedule I mean, excuse me. I I don't know your name sba Monica Monica How long is Okay, is your presentation fairly brief I hate to have you wait. We're gonna be here. We're gonna be here a while and I hate to have you sitting in the In the wings waiting so If you could do your best most sufficient job to give us your presentation, that would be great Okay, I'm ready now Okay, go for it. Okay Okay, well, great. Good evening. Um, everyone. My name is monica miles I'm a public affairs specialist with the us small business administration and the um, us small business administration just wants to make sure that The homeowners the people who rent their home the businesses and the nonprofits in washington county Are aware that um, the sba has low interest rate disaster loans available The did line to apply for A disaster property loan is coming up very soon on october 12th 2023 and the disaster is with respect to the Floods and storms that occurred back in the month of july between july 7th to july 21st the sba's Disaster loans with respect to homeowners Can provide up to 200 000 for a loan for The property damage that occurred to a person's home in The county as a result of the floods and storms in july with respect to the Internal contents of the home the personal property for somebody who's renting their home or somebody who owns their home Is 40 000 dollars and that would include things like their furniture appliance um equipment And in vehicles as well up to 40 000 dollars with respect to a business or nonprofit um in the county The maximum loan amount is two million dollars Of course, this depends upon what um any um applicants um Ability would be to repay the loan as well and as to the damages themselves And the sba's loan all you although we tell people do not Wait for to hear from your insurance company before applying to the for the loan If you do end up getting if the applicant it does end up getting Proceeds from their insurance company or perhaps from fema The sba's loan would be something Separate from from that so we don't duplicate What someone would receive from their insurance company or for fema if an applicant applies to the sba Has hasn't heard from their insurance company and later on the insurance company gives some proceeds They can use that funds to prepay their sba loan But they don't have to wait that period of time Because we do realize that um quite often insurance companies may take Um an extended period of time before uh the matter is settled The interest rates for the loan for a homeowner or a renter is 2.5 percent Um and that goes for the real estate and the um personal property for the person who owns their home For a non-profit organization the interest rate is 2.375 percent and for business It's as low as 4 percent then the interest rates can increase for Applicants if they have a very excellent credit rating and would be able to get um a loan on the open market, but those are the The the rates the lowest that the rates go down In addition the sba does not um the loans will not accrue interest during the first year of the loan And the first payment on the loan is not due until one year after the applicant receives their first draw on the loan. So if an applicant actually um Was able to pay off the loan right just prior to a year they would have the use of the funds for a whole year interest free In addition the sba it does ask for um collateral for loans that exceed 25 000 But if the applicant doesn't have any collateral, they can still go forward with the with the loan as well But if if they do have collateral the sba does ask um for the collateral um to to secure the loan Um In addition, there's no application fee to apply for the loan And uh, there's once a person applies for a loan. Of course, they're not required to accept it So if they decide they don't want the loan, they don't have to go through with it as well But but for the property loan as it stands, um today the deadline is on october 12th And there's no penalty If somebody wants to prepay the loan as well so they can uh the the loan time usually Is 30 years, but if they want to pay it sooner than that they can do so without any, um penalty And um in order to apply for the loan The person could um go to sba's website, which is sba.gov forward slash disaster and um There's uh plenty of information on the website that guides you through that process An potential applicant could also call the sba Our phone number is 1 800 659 2955 if the person is hearing impaired then they can call 7 11 for assistance they can um ask for um The well at this time I wouldn't ask for a loan a application to be mailed out. You can also get a paper application um online If you want to print it out, um, but you can also ask the sba if they're what centers are in your area and they're Uh still are um two centers in um washington county one's at um bar a auditorium and the other one is at waterbury um armory and The uh one located actually in um bar a auditorium is uh last day is going to be on october 11th And the one in waterbury armory is uh last day is going to be on october 14th And um with respect to the uh for businesses and nonprofits They have um another type of loan that they can um apply for and that's called economic injury disaster loan Now um the deadline data I stated earlier october 12th again, that's just for property Loans um damages to the building damages to a house damage to the prop personal property including the cars um clothing equipment um for business supplies Things of that nature um that deadline is october 12th for the um businesses that want to apply for what's called the economic injury disaster loan That date is not until april 15th 2024 for businesses and nonprofits can apply for An economic injury disaster loan and the economic injury is something similar to um If the uh business had to close um for a while due to a lack of electricity road closures um their workers uh suppliers customers Not being able to make it to the business to make purchases because of the effect of the disaster on it's on themselves The road closures things of that nature And the over a period of time the business recognizes that its revenue has decreased then the um A business can apply for an economic injury disaster loan And then it's still incorporated in that two million dollar figure for for businesses And uh and nonprofits the two million dollars is for everything together With the homeowners, it's the 200 000 for the real estate and again the 40 000 for the personal property Then for the economic injury um as well It is uh again, it has the same interest rate up to four four percent And then it's something um Again, that takes place typically over a period of time before business Recognizes that it has suffered that it believes it has suffered an economic injury as a direct result of the disaster So again that deadline to apply for that isn't until april 15th 2024 And the way that loan is designed is if the the business is not able to pay its necessary obligations In order to remain open That's how the the loan is generated. But with that being a part of the equation as as well and the loan is designed to Um continue to provide funds to the business as as needed throughout the disaster period. So that can be um Loan proceeds being provided over a period of time as needed one other resource for an potential applicant is to go to um disaster loan assistance dot sba.gov And um you can find the application um directly at that particular location as well as well um the last um loan that I just wanted to mention is um mitigation loans And that is so that a homeowner or a business can build back better for a homeowner They can um apply for up to for an additional amount of money separate from the 200 000 separate from the 40 000 The the mitigation loan addition could be up to 20 percent of whatever the homeowner's Verified property loss damages uh were So up to 20 percent of that amount Um that has been verified verified by the sba. They can apply for um a loan funds for mitigation The mitigation funds could be used for such things as some pump um French drains retaining walls things of that nature If they have fun different ideas new ideas, they can always bring it to the sba and the agency will review it to determine if uh their particular project um would um Be eligible for the mitigation loans Same thing with respect to our business as well. And that's pretty much it Well, I'm I'm I'm sorry, but you've used up your time So thank thank you very much for your presentation. That was good information. We really appreciate it. Okay. All right. Well, thank you very much Thank you. Okay. Thank you Highway report gentlemen We'll do the bits You've got the floor Oh Yes I was just going to do that. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I thought you were specialist with Steve well Steve is a specialist, but he asked me to Okay, this is this is steve's estimate was uh One one hundred and nineteen thousand seven hundred and thirty eight dollars One hundred and nineteen thousand seven hundred and thirty eight dollars I don't know as you have that number there No, that's written just was written on here But if you'd like to write that down again one hundred and nineteen thousand seven hundred and thirty eight dollars Do you have anything you want to add to that or? So anyways, we had uh Three bidders Jay mcdonnell All seasons excavating and isaac's West charleston west charleston just a little bit of a ride anyways mcdonnell's bid Was a hundred and thirty six thousand two hundred and twenty six dollars the Isaac's bid was a hundred and thirty six thousand four hundred and fifty dollars Unbelievably close and all seasons bid was actually a hundred and twelve thousand Fifty dollars, but That was with the stipulation the town was buying the material paying for materials. So there was no markup or anything, right? And that came up to twenty two thousand dollars steve estimated So their total bid was a hundred and thirty four thousand Fifty dollars Or about two thousand Two thousand two hundred bucks three hundred bucks less And the other two Looking at your scoring sheet here. They had the best score all seasons. They did Yeah, they also received the other bid they did and would they be able to do the work? They said they would be yes, they gave us I don't know if it's they gave us a timeline of Three weeks About three weeks and they're starting weeks to start And they're starting I'm not so sure they didn't start today Not today So they'll be in this week if we haven't awarded a bid That was on the What was that? I'm sorry You said that they started today and I asked how they could start if we haven't awarded a bid That's true, but the I meant we have awarded the other one. It was on the other one that they started today And their duration on that one is three weeks about that So they could start the best guess so they could start this one right immediately following that one And roll right in that's what they said. Yeah And I think also if they got a in all Reality seeing as all the work is right in the same area They probably would work them together and the duration of this one did they estimate Oh, oh everybody estimated two to three weeks. It's going to snow next week. So we got to get going How much What's that? Yes, you're correct. I'm sorry. Remember the other bid that they won. Um, how how far off were they? They were 67 000 for without materials on that But how what was the differential between that and the other ones? I think when we factored in uh town materials it was Between five and ten. So it wasn't huge Yeah, it wasn't a huge difference So If you think they can need yeah So You gentlemen are recommending All seasons for a total of 134,050 dollars. Correct. Would you like a motion to make that motion? Does anybody have any further questions randy? So it looks like they'd be finished up the week before Thanksgiving If they were awarded both Both projects based on that two to three week timeframe here Is there anything that? The town crew has to follow up on uh for any of this work prior to or after No Already then. Yeah, I hope that we vote for all seasons excavating to do the Davey road project Is there a second can I second it you can I will okay. Thank you It's been moved and seconded to accept the bid of all seasons excavating Uh for this project which includes Davey road upper sunny brook and bulldock road Um, all those in favor of the motion. Please say aye. Can I ask one one last? Yeah, before we do that. Are we supplying culverts as well? They're just just the one and everything that wants all materials. That's warm And I aggregate what's I am do we have more of these that you guys are going to be going out to bid? I don't think we do We're going to try You're going to try not to we we have more out to bid if we can if we have time Oh, you mean because of the winter. Yes. Yeah, so there's still more that needs to have to bid Oh, okay. Can I just ask a question, Sarah? Is there any um, like let's say, um We keep going out to bid and all seasons always comes out on top. Is there any Is there any reason for us to be concerned about that? I don't think so. I think what you want to see is that you just that you work the process and you can justify the You can justify the the bids that you ever you did or you did properly properly advertised You held a public meeting where you unsealed the bids you reported the bids based on a scoring system and then you Okay, and I think you know some of the concern that you both have which is real about getting it done is that This the contractor is finishing up other projects. So it's going to loosen up or Have the ability for him to use other people in his business to come in All all materials all materials. Is that correct? Correct. Can I just ask another question? While I have you guys here, you're going to talk to the contractor about how to break down the culvert cost ahead of time, correct? The one culvert we've learned. Yeah, hopefully Okay, I got a good man on it now There you go Does everybody remember the motion now? Yes. Okay all in favor Yes, hi Anybody opposed? Okay, you're all set boys What else have you got for us? Um Well, you get it written down here. Let's see I wrote conditions He's been working on South Bear swamp. Go ahead. Yeah, they're working on South Bear swamp now. I'm doing some ditching Uh, we've been grading East or West Hill Molly Supo Yeah, did some on east hill or did cross road and then I fixed Rich road so they can get the contractors down there to start on the house And and we have to go to uh North north bear swamp. Yeah, we've got to get in there and uh, where uh Rupert went down through and saved the road on july 10th. Yeah, we're gonna have to go in there and ditch that as well That'll be your next road to go to and also we're gonna bring that material back into the road and um Nellie chase road. I was over that yesterday and uh, they they repaired it temporarily with Three and a half inch minus very hard to grade so they'll have to put some uh, Uh, better gravel probably some gravel out of our town pit to save the expense of buying gravel So I hate to even say this But whenever winter comes which could be as early as next week We're ready, right the equipment's ready to go. Put the plows on the trucks. We've got the chains. We were Yeah, but we don't have sand We have sand. I was gonna have that was going to be my next question. So they're gonna. Yeah, they're gonna start We have some sand, right? We have the sand left over from last year and uh, I'm gonna go into the pit I think the end of this week And uh, we have to push the material down and uh I think hopefully next week they'll get in there and screen it out To the shop, okay The freight liner I still need to fix a couple things on that before that's ready to go, but Yeah, other than that we should be ready. The big thing on that's the uh transfer case Please please please Every year for the last few years We've had complaints about the town trucks when we were hauling sand Going too fast, etc. Etc. Etc. So please Whether it's higher trucks or our trucks Have them take it easy Yeah, we get those same emails I know you do I'm just I'm just reminding you because I get them too Anything else gentlemen anything else board members? Before you move on is any other Any things that you're concerned with as far as timing getting done before Before winter, I know we brought up a few things, but I don't know if there's anything on your mind that We we knew that was going to be the case. Yes I would just go out and buy another tarp. Yeah Because no there's a note on our agenda here for uh update on the excavator Yeah, we don't really have an update. We just we haven't done it. We're not we're we're we're still using our rental one and So we we're we're not at any point to uh Park money Haven't made it that far yet been doing other things How long do you have the rental? Until I bring it back open-ended But really isn't like Tomorrow Yeah, I mean we're gonna be running out of time Okay, any questions Randy? Liz Okay, thank you gentlemen. Thanks. Hey, thank you Dorenda treasurer's report update on fema reimbursement process and other financial issues Lucky you 937 In bills for the highway department Um And they're still coming in um, we did we're able to take one road today and Summarize it at by road. We're trying to break it out by road now and So just one road as an example was 351 thousand dollars just to do one road out of The many roads that got damaged, so that was lower sunny brook. Yeah, so we um Sarah I think is at a point now where we we can submit that Not submit it, but we're sending it off to our fema person as an example and see if it passes muster And then we are going to proceed with the rest of the roads Very time consuming. I'll tell you that Unbelievable unbelievable. I mean just to give uh Uh A couple of you in an example of the problem we're up against and I think this is really Liz and randy because you might not be aware of that when we met with Our fema person last week all of a sudden right out of the blue Uh, he told us that every individual culvert has to be listed as a separate project and countered for in that way We'd never been told that before No poor eric might have because he uh, he ended up having to do the culvert inventory and So now in addition to that you have to have the culvert Um Bike road with the coordinates and then we have to take the vendor's bills and we have to pull out Of their every vendor bill the portions that relate to the culvert So you got the actual cost of the culvert, but then any dirt or aggregate or whatever's going in that hole Has to be extrapolated out as well And that becomes a culvert cost So Typically proportional based off of like proportional value of the culvert Yes, that's how um, I think it was was it eric or steve or somebody came up But with the cost of what it cost to bury a culvert I asked him the question. I said I said, where do you where Where do you draw the line when you're repairing the road and you're repairing the culvert at the same time? What's the culvert and what he didn't have a good answer for that? So what we discussed was just coming up with a percentage and saying Here's what the culvert is. I mean, how can you possibly keep track of what dirt goes into replacing there? What material goes into replacing the culvert and what goes into replacing the road a lot of it's one of the same So anyway, but it's just an example of the frustration With trying to get this paperwork together for fema and Yeah You Well, we started going through Thursday, um, we started to go through, um, like the McCullis slips Yeah, but you and him were downstairs, right? No, he did the culvert thing on his own on friday But what I was getting at is he's right what he physically drove Every project and stopped at every You know went to every culvert right and and of course there's a There's a program that and he correlated it with that program I said that's good to know That's good to hear that that's that he did that Yeah Eric did that yeah I know I spent all day friday and he said that that's what he was doing that day He was he started on thursday Got a couple roads done and then friday morning He said that he had told me which roads I don't remember But he said that he had a whole list of roads that he had And all the time he was doing is I got to get the Transfer case in the freight one I know he's he's really being pushed He's really swamped that's all I'm saying He is very swamped Jerry do you need like help with this? Like is there something Let me just say that I am doing the easy work My work is simply just putting stuff into a spreadsheet and um, you know to contacting jerry because jerry doesn't want to hear from everybody So there's just like one person I think that Darinda has I don't know how she's sorting through these bills and how she's doing it. It's just a nightmare I know steve's helping. It's just It's just very difficult. I mean, how do you separate loads of gravel? How do you how do you do all this and What do you do about a big bill that? That's that's all emergency work. I don't know We'll see So if we gotten the updated invoices from the contractors with the information Steve A lot of it. Yeah, so I think we're waiting for We've got some more coming in tomorrow. I've been told But for the most part, I think Having gone through for the last two days all the invoices. I think we have Everything we need which then brings me to my next question. We haven't released these invoices Um, which if you're ready to You know, if you're ready to say go ahead and release them if we've got what we want I hate to wait another two weeks before we pay these contractors. Yep They're already knocking at the door and I did tell one contractor today that you'll he wanted to tell me how much money we owed him I said, well, we're waiting for this and when we get that you'll get your money As long as they've given us What we need to do what we need to do with FEMA I think we should start paying them. Are they included in tonight's order? No, they are not because nobody I've made it quite clear. I wasn't paying a bill until somebody gave me the okay So I don't know. So do we need to do we need to release them, but it's not me No, but all I'm all I'm saying is do we need to amend the order tonight to include some of those invoices Is that what you're asking us to do? Well, if that's what you want to do right now We have Right now there's a separate order or just amend it 2.11 million in payables. Yeah That's not all FEMA heard is all that's all it's all um, it's FEMA with the exception of 900 000 for the school which can wait till next week. So So you're talking a million But is the school on tonight's orders or not that's in the outstanding payables, but it's not in tonight's orders It's not in tonight's orders. We've got one more. We can send it out next week and be within The pay okay, but we need to have not next week the following So we can wait till the next board meeting. Yeah next board meeting, but these other ones. I hate to wait two weeks on You know, I would recommend I would recommend if everybody agrees that we Add that Rounded off to a million dollars to the order tonight. How many how many items is that three or four items? I mean, there's ones in here. We're paying $83,000 to pipe tonight for the rest of the paving project So, I mean there's bills in here that have to be paid, but um We're sitting on that's in a dish. That's in the orders tonight. Yeah in addition to the orders tonight I have these other ones outstanding. I think you're better off Is saying that when steve releases the bills or You know, he's the project manager If he says it's okay to pay then I guess if you're giving me The authorization to write the check and then retroactively You know Sign the order for it. That's fine Okay, well all all I'm looking for guys is for you to For you to tell me that we've got what we need from these contractors if we do I'm in favor of adding them to tonight's invoice and Paying them if we don't I'm not in favor. I would say do it as a separate item and give them the okay Once they've verified that they have it So it's it's not just a blanket approval It's there's a verification that they've the if contractor a has given us everything Release their payment if contractor b still has stuff Then we need to hold that's what we have to do. So I think I think we should do it that way Okay, so what we what we need to render is for you to give us No, I don't have those amounts. I mean unless you want me to sit here and add up I don't I can tell you that You know, like this group has to come off this group has to come off. But you know I don't have a magic number like that. It's roughly a million dollars What randy's recommended won't take care of that right That will take care Yeah, but hold on what you have there is everybody that is every payable in the system Okay, but it's but it's some of them like there are multiple invoices for different multiple multiple invoices right, right, right, right so I think that as we go through these contractor bills and one more time Then we'll take and say, okay, we have everything we need from Um Now acts and go ahead and we'll pay that. Is there a total on that sheet? Yeah, two million two point one one Because that includes the school for the nine hundred and fifteen thousand dollars nine hundred and eleven nine eleven So what you need tonight, I just want to be sure we do this the correct way what you need tonight is A vote from the select board to approve paying those invoices up to a total amount that you're going to give us Once you verify to your satisfaction. I'm not giving you a total amount You're going to give me approval to pay the invoices Provided Steve and I are in agreement that we have received everything. Well, that's an estimate up to that amount We could say up to that amount. I don't gotta give me some kind of a number Why I mean we squabble over toilet paper invoices for forty five dollars and now we're just going to give you a Blanket authority with no amount of what it is. Well, it's the invoices. I mean Yeah, but you can't but it's one one point one nine Okay If you take okay, so this is up to two point one one it but I'm not All I'm suggesting during this that we should have a number in the in the thing So if heaven forbid it ends up we don't pay one invoice. That's not the end of the world But let's put some kind of a number in the so what's the number indy one point one nine That's what she said So the motion is The motion that I'm asking for is to give the town treasurer The authority once all the information we need is received To pay those bills up to that amount. I pay those invoices up to that amount And I'll make the motion like this The motion should be that we approve up to the one point one nine million dollars After steve has signed off that the contractor has Uh provided all required information to satisfy Uh our FEMA requirements And that the rind of then can cut that check for that specific invoice with the with the verification from steve You mean one point nine One point one nine one point one nine. Yeah Yeah, because The nine nine hundred is the school is separate the nine hundred and eleven thousand dollars We're going to deal with that in the next meeting. Okay Oh, we don't have to approve that today. No, no So that's a motion Is there a second? Okay, any further discussion I just have a question. Yeah, okay. So, you know how when we sign the orders? Yes, we're signing like Looking at that. You're only signing tonight when you sign the orders. You're only signing for What's been in this? Yeah, what's in that thing, right? So what you're approving is for Me to release the payments up to one point one whatever number it was you gave in payments to The contractors. Yes. And so when will we sign those orders at your next meeting? Okay And we'll keep them in a separate Gotcha And they might be smaller because you only paid five people could be yeah, okay. Gotcha. Can you read that back, sarah? The pressure pay contractors up to one point one nine million dollars total In in road repairs after steve has signed off As steve has confirmed the contractors that contractor the contractors have provided all necessary information to clear reimbursement Is that some okay? Yes. I would just like to make sure that it's explicitly clear That steve can sign off on each invoice And not every invoice for that contractor has to be held up because one invoice isn't satisfied Right, so it's on a per invoice approval basis. Yes. Yeah approved moved that to approve that Moved to approve the treasure made paid Contractors up to one point one nine million dollars total after steve has signed off on each invoice All right. I've got to we got it. Yeah, you got it. I okay I just wanted to make sure we weren't going to hold up all payments to a contractor Because one invoice wasn't satisfied. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Victor vicar seconded it. Are we ready for a vote? All in favor? All right, anybody oppose There you go. You got it. There you go. Can I ask another question? No, yes Um, did you say how much have we spent on roads FEMA wise? FEMA wise All right, one point nine three seven. There you go one. So that's where that one point nine is coming from, right? No, the one point one nine that I just made the motion on that's is what she has an invoicing already Okay, one point nine One point nine three seven are current billings. Okay, so does that mean that we could the town it would Would would all up to maybe five hundred thousand dollars Correct That's scary. That's what I was talking about earlier this evening. Yes, and that's just highway number This includes everything not that the any other portion is that big, but we have you know overhead expense. We have Stopping yeah staffing. We have all of that that goes into that number as well Intuit are going to raise it. Well, it'll make the 25 portion higher. Yeah, okay Well, right Is that 100% So And as far as I know And I call the league of cities and towns today to say You know, what's going on with regard to that 25% FEMA matters the state going to come up with some of that money or there are other plans to do it Nothing yet So hopefully it'll be less than 25% but right now as it stands today the best information I could get Because it's 25% so they did not approve the reduction of that 25% to Whatever it was 10% or whatever that we talked about previously haven't done it yet They're hoping to I was under the impression that that had been approved, but Okay, I think it's in the works, but it is not approved now Who knows this is talking to somebody at the league of cities and towns. I didn't talk to the governor's office or anybody else I've got uh, I've got the governor's cell phone. I found that's very effective I'm trying not to use it. Anyway, anything else on the highways Treasure treasure. Oh, I'm sorry Treasure You are the highway Thanks, Steve We should be able to we're paying the last of the paving project grant tonight. That's in the orders So we should be able to submit that And hopefully get that money back Great. Thank you Thank you for all your hard work, darnda To say the least. Thank you Um errors and omissions Yes, man It's gonna change probably revenue is probably $25 change So not too much, but I guess this is going forward according to our district advisor Anything we do with current use now if the properties are touching under the same owner and the state wants them under the same umbrella and be contiguous What changes the value so this end up changing it to 40,500 less than what it was originally Going backwards every Meeting a little bit at a time. Yeah A lot of it's all all the changes in the state. No, I get it. I get it So is there a motion to approve that Change Okay, second Okay, all in favor I Approved. Thank you. Hopefully we're getting to the end of these I'm sure you do Yes Will you say that one more time about the So if you have something in land use or current use And so you have multiple properties If you put a second property in current use amongst a side of another one that's touching that's in current use It now become contiguous properties according to the state So it falls under the same Bunch of land instead of having two different spam numbers across like these It's under all under one but they have And then you have a larger portion of acreage. So now the value goes down a little bit Thank you Yes, yes Okay, I think we're down to uh other business considering the energy committee's recommendation to consider Window dresser inserts for the town hall windows action possible and we have a Little memo on that subject in our in our packet Yeah, you're up. All right. Thank you. I'm lowery sharp Representing the energy committee with marge dep off here so past couple years The throughout vermont new hampshire and main Communities have been building these window inserts. They're basically insulating windows Storm windows on the inside And so this is a small model We figure that If you install these on all these windows here, and this is based on calculations from The organization that makes these that they would pay for themselves in three years or less Based on current propane fuel usage So if the bi a project, you know were to happen next year, then I would say it's not worth it But if that whole renovation is a few years out and these windows are staying Then these things could serve for 10 years And so cost, you know somewhere around 700 dollars maybe to do all these windows And um, and then so the only questions are Is this a safe space for you know this kind of plastic window to be in or do you have cats? That I gotta tear And then the second thing is in the summer you want to take them out and storm somewhere So you just need to know if you have a good place to store 10 of these big things somewhere So that's the only kind of catch And we're almost sort of I mean in recent years, we've been bad about even putting down the storm windows That are on these windows let alone Right having window But these go on from the inside Yeah, I've had the honor of trying to do that in the past and it's not an easy Right So these things just slide right in their custom cut to fit And they just Fit right in and then you don't touch them until the spring when you want to take them out And you don't have to take out the north side Right, you can leave the north ones in if you don't want to open those those windows Sorry, I'm sorry 700 dollars total or total again total Yeah We just spent 1.1 million now we're now we're talking about 700 Right So there's a community event happening in waysfield in november where we're going to build these with the volunteer effort And we figure we can get middle sex people to help do that if you say yeah, we're doing this and it'll keep sarah warm We have them at our house and they they actually do work nicely like yeah People rave about them. Yeah And they're they're not You know, we don't have them on every window But in the room, but leaky very noticeable the house right over there same vintage. She is so impressed with them She put in 10 last year So same vintage same situation leaky windows And there's at least a chance if we're going to keep the old windows that we could use them Maybe if we did the renovation, yeah, although that's a good term Yeah, it's hard to know like I mean it's hard to know to like what they would be doing to treat those windows You know, right? We don't know. Yeah, right, but I mean So you're asking for a vote right now? Yeah, because we need to Window dressers inserts Yeah inserts Here in the town Is it exactly for the and it's it's the upstairs windows? Yes It's not exactly 700. We need to measure them precisely and then but we know it's less than 700 Okay, so up to 700 All in favor All right, we're spending the money now Right Randy Yeah, I mean for me, I mean it's It's not a great deal of money, but I will say that you know The the efforts going into the town hall and the amount of the timeline that that that work has to be done To satisfy all of these other funding efforts There's a very good likelihood that these won't be Utilized past, you know 2025 But you know They will and it will make her more comfortable and that's I guess that's where You've complained about the wind blowing And it's probably not there will not be a return on investment if indeed we So it has it has my fault, but I do just want to recognize that That you know, these won't pay for themselves in my opinion based on the time frame that we're looking at But there are other reasons other than just and then we do a monetary payback. Yeah I was going to say can they be cut down and be re-perfect? Yeah, it's easy to re-wrap them So we could yeah, so you might be able to put them someplace else Else we're giving to somebody So we did it we did approve up to 700 dollars just to make that clear my comments came All right, thank you very much she's over there she's cold Yeah, it's gonna be cold next week. Is my guess is that that we can also just use some of that $4,000 for these I can double check. Yeah, we need to check on that the money That we have this $4,000. It has to be spent And I'm sort of hoping to hire someone to help us with the MRF application But I'm not sure who we can find to do that. Like, you know, I have some consultants. I've reached out to people Um, and like there is a list of people who do this kind of thing Yes, but I don't know $5,000, I don't know Can I just ask one question before we move on set Can you repeat the time frame that you were talking about having those built? Uh, it's the first week of November. Okay, so they'll be they'll be here by the seven That's great. Thank you. So we do need volunteers though, and it's fun to build them So I'm looking at the people that comment like no, but it really is like you go in and you spend the day You you build you like four hour shifts. Yeah, you're like in a different you might be wrapping them You might be putting the tape on you might be I don't know I think we're gonna have to require this like board to put in a four-hour shift Hey, we'll sit right in the office our designated representative. It's only time It's only time is right. I think I'm not Thank you Thank you, and you'll be glad Sarah will be glad Sarah. Well, and we do as a as a side issue and I know you guys are involved But as we go forward with this town hall project We want to be sure you guys are actively involved in that Exactly. I feel like they need to be doing this stuff that I Want to hide like they need to be looking at the Merle funding and all that that's their job Uh-oh I know Thanks guys, thank you guys. Thank you Wait, so those kits will get they'll go into production next week the the kits cutting of the window frames as soon as we measure Yeah Thanks guys Consideration of a FEMA buyout for gloria fields property of 158 three mile bridge road action likely Sarah Yes, gloria fields like a buyout of her property at 158 three mile bridge road. This is actually a pretty distressed property She's not returning there and FEMA thinks that they she makes a good candidate for mom emergency management Which makes a good candidate for buyout. So all I just need is for you guys to authorize go looking forward They're not signing off. You're just saying yes, you want to go forward and authorizing peter to sign the documents Is there a motion? figures moves Yeah If anything else on that one No, but The question is Do we have any sense sarah of? FEMA's ability to buy out these properties Or their willingness to or interest in Well, yes, because i'm in I had an email from them last from brian walters last week who's in charge of the buyout program And they are very familiar with all the property The properties that we've submitted so far And I think that they are very much behind by a lot of these properties on three mile bridge road and cross road And maybe even one or two on lower study right that one hasn't arrived yet But I expected to come by the next board meeting They seem to have the money they seem to think they they did not Recommend the putnamville one that you guys approved because they thought it would go into another program And those homeowners have since written me and said they're going to withdraw their buyout because they're they don't For variety of reasons. So we're left with basically cross road and three mile bridge road There is one guy who owns a camp in the middle of state property at the bottom of shady real where the Where the where that shady real park where it's supposed to be a spillway basically It's supposed to grab all the water that comes down from paterson creek or even backs up from the reservoir It's really not supposed to be lived in And my suggestion to him is that to contact the state because I don't think the town wants to own a T we need a little bit of town land right in the middle of the state But if you want to you can I mean it's So then my next question is So If fema buys out Is there a typical formula they use is it based on the assessed value? What we will do is we will hire We the town will set up a bid An appraiser to come in a professional appraiser to use Information to come up with a july 9th value of each one of these homes And Is it typical that they that they actually Use that value to determine how much they're actually going to pay out or it's like we'll pay out 50% of that amount Or they actually in my experience. They have usually done what the appraiser has. Okay So then my final question is Based on your experience having done a buy out or two or two if there are 14 Is that even possible for you to help manage that very good question? We have been in contact. I have been in talks with the state taking this over since it's going to be a strip of land Asking if maybe the state content these buyouts and instead of that being town land But the the town he's been on it that the state takes the land and they puts a state he's been on it And so they went to the buyouts. It's something that we continue to talk about So there's a possibility because otherwise that makes it almost Like you would need assistance you could not do this on your own and do all your other town meeting your town duties I am not eager to do that But I but I know this the state understands the states had enough familiarity with me and they know much I hate these things that they're they completely understand that I don't as personally want to administer them And they're looking at to this alternative model interesting. Okay. That's cool. Good. That's good Okay, so we vote So put that in the minutes. Okay Yeah, so I will I thought we just did No, okay. Yeah, you had additional questions We didn't second it but we did not vote the motions the motions been moved. Okay, so I'll vote Any opposed, okay done Orders we're going to sign the orders Um, we do have uh correspondence Yep, okay, go ahead Wote to do email I don't know what you want me to do, but I thought it was just a slight bit High Did you read it? So I didn't see it turned. I'm sorry. How much is it? Over 10,000 it's like 14,000 or something. Yeah to change our email over to office 365 I just Everything we do with them is an unbelievable amount of money I love listening to their ad on wdv around seven in the morning I don't think but to be honest you guys I don't think it's it's out of like scope of what other Companies would do now what like larry had mentioned to me was like sometimes Companies will take you on And then they raise their prices later right they give you sort of a discount the beginning and then they raise their prices And he does other municipalities and I and I don't think he's you know Grossly unreasonable, you know, he has employees and benefits and rent and all that kind of stuff I mean, I just think that well we already own the program. This literally is just To me and I'm not an IT person, but I just think it's remapping You know from one to another You know from one Host to a different host and I don't see how that incurs is a $10,000 code All our computers and everything are on office 365. We upgraded everything to office 365 So why how can it cost $9,800 charge for the services the software the products basically are you know, $600 Not the $500 and then there's a hundred and fifty eight dollar monthly service Do it but $9,800 It's gonna be that monthly charge. It was $14 a mailbox or something like that That we were aware of I mean, they're basically saying that it's going to take 73 hours to To transition that over at the $135 an hour billing rate. That's like two weeks. Right How can that possibly be? It doesn't make sense to me. I mean Does it take all day to be one person? No Did I talk to him? No Is there somebody that would talk to him? I think we should have him come to a meeting. Oh, no Well, I I don't understand why it's that much I mean, it seems like a crazy number to me. Yeah, I agree. I don't I do not I truly do not understand Exactly what they have to do and how it takes that much time And maybe it's just like we don't understand it, but it sure as hell seems like a lot of money to make Well, wasn't to put in a server 20,000 And yet to do the email is 10,000 I To me that seems ridiculous But I just that's why I sent it to you because Does it say is it says in there how many hours? No, it just says services subtotal They break it all out and divided that by the 135 dollars that I believe is in our contract pay For that service. Yep. And that's how I backed into the hours. Why don't we send him an email at the very Least rather than having him come and just say can you please explain the cost of the service? Well, it's in there how he broke it all out It's all in that thing of what his different levels are Of this it's so many hours for this it's so many hours for that it's so many hours for this It was all broken out in the email. Yeah, so it's The big part of it is The migration 36 hours. He's basically saying and it was 130 dollars and 50 cents Is what the hourly rate is here Um, and then there's a fixed fee for security review $400 because he's also migrating all of our gmail all of our emails too Like right. He's taking everything that's in everybody. I'd like to ask somebody in the in the field like Just for a gut check Yeah, just to say that's not a bad idea. How many how many users do we have? I think they figured like four I had to send a list to him. I can get to the list I sent to him. I think there's like 14 mail boxes. I think that that sounds right Okay, so that makes that makes sense because it looks like there's 14 licenses to this Yeah, Scott. You're a full suite. Okay So it is like but it's doing every, you know, it's taking everything over in our historical archives to I would guess Yeah, but that's got to be just copying a five Yeah, it takes time. I think it's I'll I'll reach out and ask a couple folks Let's do that and and defer a decision on this until uh, just to see if that if if it raises major stacks with them right Because I just don't know enough to know whether that's What it should be or not the other question is Do we have money in our budget to do that? Well, we budgeted so we budgeted 20,000 for the server So I would just because we put that on hold. I would just take it out of that line. Okay Okay Well, let's remember to talk about that. I'll follow in town this in between this meeting and neck of stock Ask that question This is because real money you're running down Yeah, the company we deal with are the technologies Okay, so So, sarah, you want me to sign? Subgrantees authorized agent Keeping you up. Okay. So We have correspondence from Blanche La Force And uh, you all got a copy of it. I did, yeah Should we read it aloud? I think probably we should Who who is Our mother it's your mother On to the town of middle sex select board on september 18th. I like to know why steve martin Talk about being around 45 years about mead road while I tried to tell peter I was here since 1963 all he said it didn't matter I don't think that was right When lis told evlyn put her phone on mute I already heard zack ask if steve martin was there I guess it doesn't matter what people say only certain ones it looks Like it was already set up between vick and steve and zack When vick said it was okay to spin and dig up on people's grass that wasn't Called for he should not be on the select board I hope people think twice before they vote for the select board Blanche La Force notch road middle sex So the only comment I have to that and she misunderstood What I said to her I was trying to explain that It really didn't Matter in terms of our decision-making process Where the road was 40 or 60 or 80 years ago what mattered was Where the road is now And I know that's a difficult concept for people to get their arms around and I regret that she misunderstood that but um Was this I'm sorry. Was this at a meeting or was this on the road down after after after we went to mead road That okay. Yeah So, you know, unfortunately, obviously she isn't happy I got to get off the board well What so can I ask a couple of questions? What was the question you I know you were upset and and I'm sorry this whole thing happened I really am I didn't What was the question steve asked me? It was about I know we had talked And they had been mentioned about it spinning the tires. I thought it was across the road From his house. I think it was I think I think let's see the answer the question is okay So it was it was I I asked you specifically if it would be all right based on your response If I just showed up Planted my truck in the middle of the right-of-way on your property and tore it up right down to the dirt and you said sure Well, it has happened And it has happened to me and and somebody where somebody went out of their way and maliciously tear up your grass Mark cody Bowen cody Yes, he did spun a donut right on my lawn Yeah, so now You know I have you know And I should probably not have brought that up, but that's what popped in my head. But also you you know this And I think I did say I wouldn't do it. Yeah I think I did say I wouldn't do so to approve that but it's it's like I can't think it I can't I don't really want to mention names, but there's some roads That people, you know, they put the they put the stones out right on the edge But it's actually in the right-of-way and people go down through and spin that up Uh There's another one on the other end of town that say do that so it does happen But is it is it kind? No, no, I didn't I didn't mean that at all Go ahead Peter I just don't know what our response is Should we acknowledge that we've we've uh read her letter and concerns into our uh into our minutes Should we respond to the letter I had asked her not not to come at least for a couple weeks because it it affected her health She felt disrespected. She felt Disappointed it was a lifeboard But if I can just put on her upbeat You've got to be careful validating that somebody can vandalize somebody's property because I give them permission to do that And that's what happened right after when you say something like that and I've looked in all the state I talked to I'm waiting for the Municipalities the secretary of state to call me back because I don't find it anywhere Well, you can take a town right away or the town has access to do any changes or repairs and damage someone property I don't find where you can and I don't find where you can And I tell you if I don't find it I will work my way up to the general in the state. So that's changed because no one should be able to No, I hurt somebody else's property or a town property for that matter. I'm not talking by mistake. I'm talking intentionally in any case I mean, I know I wouldn't do it. Well, they shouldn't make you know, you know, if it's in the if it's in the if it's in the town right away Absolutely, they shouldn't be able to do it. I mean whether they're tearing up whether they're Whether they're driving around in mud season and ripping and ripping and tearing up the town roads of whatever they do It's very difficult. You can't do it to someone's private property And that's through your property even though the town has access, but it's through your file And that's what I'm saying. I don't think that and putting it out there says yay Let's put up the balloons. Let's start doing it tomorrow. It is it is not just the town has the You're a little confused about that. I think So it is it is a town right away. So yes, it is your property But the town actually Controls that right away And a town is not going to allow someone to destroy it. Just like you want to destroy it. No. Yes, randy I don't want to rehash the whole the whole thing, but I I think it's important to Step back to the same thing we tried to distinguish in the last meeting that there is a clear difference between the roadway and the right way I just I think that we should all just acknowledge that and And the comments Brought up here I'd have to go back and look at the video to see exactly what was said to see If it was the roadway or right of way because I do believe there's a clear difference Be doing those two and what is Allowable or what we can not what's allowable, but what What we can do something about and what we can't do something about so I just want to make sure that people have that clear distinction between the two because One is not the other Exactly, but I guess What what I'm thinking is you're right. I agree with you. It's not it and I wouldn't do it but What what do I do or what does the town do? Okay, so the road's 10 feet wide say 11? I don't care So that gives you out to 24 that gives you Yeah, 24 it gives you another 13 feet So if a guy pulls over it goes up around Comes up or down around my butt and spins his tires up throws mud all over makes a mess How do we enforce that? How do you enforce that? If you know who it is I suppose I don't know go ahead Steve So as far as enforcing that the town literally has state legislation on your side and you can impose a fine Yeah, we can we can show a ticket you can impose the town lawyer cost You can do literally anything you want to get the money out of that person that the law allows you to do Which is 100 to $1,000 per instance I understand that's the so that's what the town does They follow the law and enforce it the way the law instructs them to I Understand in theory what you're saying and I don't really want to believe you this point much, but I don't see how If I get up the next tomorrow morning And and even if I don't you're saying you've seen somebody do it. You know who it is Yep, but isn't it your word against his word I mean if you want to take a picture if you want to do that then hey go ahead bring it in and I guess Uh I guess the select board as a whole decide whether they want to prosecute them or not They don't get to decide because the law says they have to right. So that's it's not a decision the select board gets to me Uh I'm not sure that's correct. I'll send you the legislation tonight It doesn't I I'm wondering though if it's something that we have to do or that we have the power to do that's Yes Do you get to not follow state law? Is that a choice? No, but like I'm just I'll I'll give you an example like I see people um during mud season They love to come up culver and hill road with their trucks and literally like spin their wheels and make it that much worse for our town to Repair the roads right like well, it's like they're deliberately doing for the residents for the town It's like they're deliberately doing it Like I guess I could track them down, right? But I don't think I required as a select board member to find them We're doing that. Maybe I am but I I don't know. I think we are you saying that I think we under the discretion to enact at the federal level technically Yeah, because they're doing harm intentionally to the community Or to an individual that is an actual federal law that we're all supposed to follow Well, I suppose it might be a good question for you Oh It's You know, if someone is intentionally damaging the right of way or the roadway The bottom line. I believe it's within our purview to find them. I agree with you on that steve You know, we have never in all the years done anything like this. So this is new ground for us We're going to start issuing tickets. We have an issue tickets for dog things. We have an issue tickets for junkyard ordinances and whatever and you know, when it's It makes it particularly tricky when it's when it's neighbors who are having a having a fight and I don't know I mean, we'd have to steve if you have real proof if you have videos if you have Photos if you have whatever proof that that a particular person actually do this and you bring us to that Bring it to us. You'll force us to make a decision But until that until that happens Uh, you know, we're the answer is we're going to follow the law But I don't believe the law says we have to issue a ticket. I'm not aware that that is true If it is true, that's news to me The next step would be though steve if you think about it, wouldn't it be uh, So so I come down here and I'd say jeez my My corner is getting ripped up all the time. I want the town To get somebody To sit there and find out who that is And so that we can find them We have no ability to do that. We have no ability to do that. That's right. We don't have a town constable We don't have a town police force. That's what I'm trying to say. We have no ability to enforce it I don't I'm not saying that you're wrong That that that it it may be the law But I don't think we you know, I don't think that we have the where for to uh, or to uh, to enforce that Oh, you got the town lawyer, don't you? Yes, um But I had to tell the lawyer look look look look let's just let's just back up and I I really Don't want to talk about this at any great length tonight If you want to file a complaint with the town and you approve that this has happened Not just your word against somebody else's word Bring it to us and and we'll consider it. Yes, Randy. Just one last thing. Um, no one more So I guess the thing that I just want to bring out is We just Thought we came to a resolution on this in the last meeting as far as clearing up You know the boundaries and having people say that they were over, you know, kind of Abide by what came out of that and I'm hoping that Things would settle down after the last meeting and maybe they won't I I don't know this Uh, I think if I was in your shoes, I would be extremely frustrated as well. Um I would just ask that maybe we give it a chance to see if it really does settle down and those types of actions subside based on The course of accidents that's happened over the last month with the site visit and And the discussions and maybe they won't I I don't know It's got to be extremely frustrating for both parties Going through so I think That's that's all I want to say is just hopefully maybe the dust settles and and the actions Stop The initial conversation piece Just with talking to my grandmother after this because So part of the reason why she was frustrated Is when you guys were on site and I didn't see this or I would have brought this up that day But apparently what she had told me was she tried to talk to you and you cut her off And you didn't let her finish when she was saying that how long she had been in the area And I think what affected her so much is you didn't do the same thing to steve martin when he had brought it up So I wanted to well if that I mean, you know, first of all a you know That was a challenging situation down there on a rainstorm We were trying to move ahead if I somehow if she believes that I disrespected her I will apologize to her if that will make her feel better I certainly did not mean that I was trying to make the point to the group Not just to her that where the road was historically Was not really germane in determining where the road is today And you know the state law is clear on that that the road is where the road is doesn't matter where it was 60 years ago. So that's all I was trying to say and she Misunderstood or I cut her off. I'm sorry about that um, and I guess the question is uh You know The board how do we to do we do we write a letter in response to this to her? Do we or a response? I think we do I'm happy to call her. Yeah Well, what is your give or still upset? But My question is we met there last week But two weeks ago, right? Has anything Happened In the last two weeks that I don't need to point my fingers. Sorry Is anything happened in the last two weeks? That that's that that your property's been torn up in the redwood Or are you talking about something to happen before where you Where you could see the tire marks over there. So this was about the letter like This was about a letter that my grandmother sent to the town a while ago So like we're not coming here bringing it up again. No This is a letter that my grandmother had sent. I told her I didn't burn it. I didn't look at it. So you get upset, you write something, burn it Which was normal in that sense in town to the 88 years old It's what would it would it calm her down for me to call and try and explain that to her? Is that just going to infuriate her more? Should I try and come over to me? I mean Why don't you just call her up and just say hey, she would like to I mean I I would like to hear someone Nicely call me up and say I'm sorry. I saw your letter and I didn't listen to what you said and Tell me more about how long you've lived on nacho road. Well, I think it could be as simple as There was no disrespect meant I apologize for that because clearly she felt disrespected and I think that's enough if if I was the person to write this letter a simple phone call that said There was no disrespect intended would be would be and I'm sorry Yeah, I I don't think you need to rehash the incident. I think it's I think it's just an acknowledgement that you you hear What she's saying And I think this is a good opportunity I think this is a good opportunity for us to remember That we as a board Are here to serve the public and to listen to the public and make the public feel welcome at these meetings because sometimes we can be wanting to get through the agenda and Not make people feel welcome at the meetings So this is an opportunity for us to remember that sometimes our meetings might go longer because people want to talk Or people want to say something and just to before we Interrupt someone or tell them to stop talking That we think for a moment before we do that I have I have given this lecture before and I think this is another great opportunity All I would say on my behalf about that is I absolutely try to do that and Sometimes especially when I was a situation I had multiple people talking at me at At the same time it was very difficult to manage down there That's all I'm saying and I I will call her up and very sincerely apologize to her and hopefully that makes her feel better And I'm sure you guys will find out if it doesn't make her feel better. Maybe I will yeah, okay Okay, all right, okay, and is the phone call good enough for should we do a letter? What would she like the phone call? Okay, all right good And if coming to our meetings upset her I feel badly about that Um, so I actually do have a welch park report. Believe it or not So here it is short and sweet I gave it to riley with both barrels. I said john. I'm really frustrated I call you now. You don't return my phone calls. Whatever. What's up? He said peter. I am completely overwhelmed There's no way I can do this project And I said, well, I wish you told me that six months ago john But at least you're being honest with me now and I and I consider him a friend. He's a good guy I mean it was not an easy easy conversation. But what I said is Um, we're gonna go ahead and make other plans Do you have anybody you would recommend to handle this and he said no, I really don't have anybody So, uh, carl and I carl balan and I talked about this Carl balan has talked to uh, olson associates up in stov. They do a lot of uh this kind of work And she is willing to rewrite the agreement which is one step in this What she strongly suggested is that we reach out to uh, Grenier and associates charlie grenier and have him deal with the act 250 piece of this Which apparently he does a lot of a lot of all the time and he has good relations With the act 250 people So I don't know What the cost of this is i'm gonna get some kind of at least rough estimate of what the cost is But my recommendation is if this can work and carl is also going to reach out to uh To matt oates who is the benderson person and make sure he's in agreement with us But my feeling is we moved to we need to move forward She didn't seem to think rewriting it was a big deal. I don't know what that means in terms of money But certainly there was going to be a cost associated with having uh, john riley Do it So what I would like to do is get a little more information and come back Next time and say do you agree that this is the way to go forward? Hopefully at the same time matt oates will agree and then we can Then we can do it but At least john riley was honest and said what I think we'd already figured out that he just doesn't have the capacity to do it And the other thing with all sudden associates, which is a potential part of this in terms of the cost is They have paralegals and associates who would undoubtedly Do a lot of this work. So it wouldn't be paying Paying the lawyers john riley is like a one-man show. So whatever he did he would be billing us By the hour his hourly rate Does that make does that make sense? At least it'll get us moving finally get us moving forward on this And the my only other question does anybody have anyone else who they think would be a good person To do this carl came up with carl came up with all some associates. I do not know them But he does Yes Okay, I just need authorization from the board to allow me to send letters to at least one owners. We have Owners of dogs at 174 east mile east hill road Who whose dogs continue to go out on the road and never has people it's getting to the point Where people on east hill are actually calling the Vermont state police and um I play out of my day on saturday to this to these people and put a note in the door and told them It's got to stop and they call me. They haven't called me. I've emailed them. I've contacted them. I've called them And they haven't done anything It's got to stop. It's just you know, it's one thing for dogs to go on the road I have an owner who had dog that lived in the road But it's another for dogs to harass these these guys and erica has been an ongoing problem with her for her and she needs some teeth So if you can can authorize it, that's great. We also have dogs on french road Who i'm sure tracked down a fawn and killed it on french road and ate it as it was alive And I don't know who owns those dogs on french road. Anybody knows them. Please come forward But they also need letters. These dogs are not only unlicensed. They're unregistered. I don't know if they've had rabies shots It's bad Where do you think they live? I don't know where the owners on french road. But if I know exactly where the owners on east hill broke So and in fact you left a note form that didn't respond to your note Yeah, I left a note in the door and they didn't respond and Liz fortman went over there on saturday and spoke to one of the owners she's dealt with them before and nothing has happened and I Emailed these people. I don't know what else we can so So the only question I have about that is As you as you've threatened in your letter. Do we take the dogs? I mean they haven't responded. What puts another letter there? We have a problem with the dog taking and the problem with dog taking is the effect of the flood on The shelter, yeah So I can search around but I think that can we issue them a ticket? I guess we can issue him a ticket. I think that they have I think if you allow me to at least for the people on 174 East Hill Road, you give us a deadline you pick the day, you know Was it one week two weeks to get the rabies the rabies certificates in and the um And well, I need you you spelled it out in your email. You need to restrain your dog You need to get them rabies vaccinated and you need to get them registered I guess, you know, the it's not just one person on east hill road who's complaining about this It's another I think they're very threatening. I think they're kind of in dog mode Right near there. We had a really bad dog incident. Oh, I remember Do they know they could be sued? What are they doing chasing cars chasing people chasing human beings and bikers like like people walking and biking So what I would tell you and I go buy those dogs all the time. You do. Okay, mostly in my car Okay, the brown Hound he's some kind of a hound dog. I don't know what he is But he's some kind of a hound dog. He lies there at the end of the driveway All day long all day long waiting waiting for his master to come home. I presume But I have never seen and I've seen people walk by. I've seen all kinds of stuff I have never seen that dog go after anybody or any other dog. He's When I go by and I've walked by a couple of times. He's very peaceful. He's just lies there, but Obviously, there's something going on there and he's definitely there. He's there Well, you've seen him Victor all the time. I'll vouch for you. I got out of my car the other day I went over and petting him. Wait, is there a pack once you have two though? That's that's Liz's that's you're absolutely right. Okay. Well, here you go. So here's the question the first time I have seen the German shepherd there who was the other dog I'm not sure if he's a pure bird German shepherd, but he looks like a German shepherd was In the last few days. I did see the other dog there Well, according to Erica. This has been an ongoing problem. There was there She responded once when their dog was hit a couple years ago When it when it was when it got into a porcupine, she helped him and then that dog was the same one that one The road was killed. So I guess all I'm asking I mean these people if they if their dog were licensed or if their dog if I had a rabies certificate I would feel a lot better about this at least I would have some knowledge But these people are blowing me off about a rabies certificate and now we're in a now we're in a health issue I don't know if these dogs have been vaccinated or not. I don't know what to tell people They do bite who who is responsible for Collecting the dogs that we were to do that. Is that Erica? Well, you know, ultimately what we're all talking about here is we don't have a constable Yeah, and a constable is an impossible thing to have you have to have basically a full-time police officer Who's willing to work every few hours? um a year And those are the people who deliver tickets and those are the person who would accompany Erica to deliver Something like this like a ticket, but you know Yeah, I suppose we would we would have to execute some sort of authority. I haven't done it yet, but I would like to start off with a scary letter. You just let me yeah I thought that email was plenty scary enough, but you didn't give them a You didn't give them a deadline. Let's get them a letter that they have to sign Certified certified. Yeah, Steve. I would include what the remonstate legislation says you can do to a dog and some defense in fear of your own life in that letter Work reward the way it's written in the legislation That doesn't get if that doesn't get their attention. Nothing more May I address that? I'm sorry. What I said may I address that? With all due respect. I don't want anybody shooting anybody else's dogs. We're not I I think that's something We're gonna try to avoid Steve. You get a dog running at me and I think it's gonna attack Okay, but we're not incurred. We're not saying Do you watch out the town of Middlesex? You can come to the road that person can shoot your dog I just don't think we're gonna go there. I think what we're gonna say is that here's the dog warden. Here's the statue These are the penalties. This is the important Let's give them one week a week from then what do we do guys? Here we go Okay, let's say they don't do anything in one week We then hire the police to accompany Erica to seize the dogs Washington county. There's no place to take them Well They will take them in the shelter because They'll find some place to take. We'll put them in big backyards That's a little brand. Bring them over to my house. I'll put invisible fence collars on them That's right. I still have my invisible fence. Well, these people actually own an invisible fence as well. They just didn't install it I don't know. I'll bring it to you if it weren't a non-voting problem Well, they probably don't care that much about their pets, which is why they're not doing anything. So I just I just want to say again, and I I just want to be a little careful because that dog at the end of the road is very sweet He is you said you petted him I like dogs. I don't want to be shot. I don't want to be shooting dogs I'm just gonna do I fear your neighbors are gonna say everybody call peter would walk down the street They'll knock on his door. Okay, so I understand your frustration. That's the plan Let's send a letter and see what happens and hopefully they hopefully they respond We had an owner a dog owner on wood road and she reads the problem. We said her we said her some scary letters I remember that right and that's when visit trick right and maybe fed finds and penalties for all to do the trick Who knows something like that? Yeah, and if it doesn't I'll see you next week and I'd be happy to um accompany Erica if necessary Oh, that's very kind of you me too Well, I mean I'm right down the street victor and I can victor and I can come in from both sides Peter can stand there and pet the dog Okay, is that enough for you? That's all I need. I just needed that So we need to make a motion that we give you the permission to do that. Yes, we should I haven't worded You're not all we're doing is you're authorizing need to execute that It's just a letter it's no formal act right so are we cancel every um closing up? Yep. We need to sign orders. We gotta sign orders Are you going to adjourn the meeting? Thank you for your time and attention When you sign the orders your meeting is adjourned. Don't worry. Well, it takes me a while Well, do you want to come down tomorrow and do it? No