 Thanks to the Vineyard theater, which we're in right now. They have been so wonderful in accommodating Last but certainly not least our fabulous friends at Playbill and Sarah Jane from Playbill is here tonight This is actually our third year of four-day panel events for information on the past two years You can and information on the rest of the week. You can go to playbill.com backslash identity week There's a lot of great information there including a whole companion series about this week in particular and we have Tonight's was written about MacArthur theater and their relaxed performances, which is a really Fascinating story, so I would recommend you check it out a few housekeeping things before we get started Cell phones silence them, but please do not turn them off because we love live tweeting I'm gonna be sitting in the back doing that myself For live tweeting first very important Wi-Fi if you need it, especially if you're in this lower half. You might need that. Yeah VT2 is the network and Vineyard all lowercase is the password that you should use Use hashtag identity week obviously it's hashtag identity week But also tag us at mr. Samuel French and I'm proud to say because of identity week We are switching our handle next week from mr. Samuel French to Samuel French NYC So be on the lookout for that Also one final note because of tonight This is we're trying to do this throughout the week people tend to go up on that second level afterwards to talk to the panelists We want to make an aim to go out this way and to go into the lower lobby tonight So if you'd like to chat with the panelists or other audience members stick around there for a little bit before we have To close up shop and come back for tomorrow night We have George Seawolff Larry Kramer Joy Gresham. Dr. Shaw gay a lot of fabulous people So join us tomorrow and have fun. Thank you. Oh, and I'd like to introduce our moderator deep Tran She is the associate editor of American Theater magazine and she's gonna take it from here. Thank you Only on the journalistic side as an invisible writer, so I'm never on stage. This is very new for me So I'm very happy to be here. I'm excited for the conversation So, let's get started. Please bring up the panel and for our audiences. Can each of you and introduce yourself? Where do you want to start? Hi, I'm Christine Bruno, and I'm an actor and disability advocate at Alliance for Inclusion in the arts Hi, I'm Laura Kirk. I'm the director of audience services at Yale Repertory Theatre in the School of Drama Hi, I'm Phil Dolman. I'm a playwright and also manager of accessibility programs for the theater development fund and hello I'm Alexandria Wales. I'm an actor choreographer director women of many hats as well as advocate and activist To start tonight's discussion I wanted to first talk about on stage representation in the past few seasons We've seen quite a number of number of high profile representations of characters with disabilities on stage on Broadway such as Deaf West's productionist Spring Awakening and a curious incident of the dog in the nighttime and so have the four of you Have has this increase in these representations? Has it been a An anomaly in your experience Well, I think It ebbs and flows it comes and goes I think that right now I'm noticing there's more of social media which gives a more consistent Conversation there's more of a chatter people are aware and they're intrigued by it whereas in the past We didn't have Twitter. We didn't have Facebook and so many Extra ways of communicating that can reach a more broad audience simultaneously So one thing I think that I'm also representing Deaf West tonight So from my experience what I think what is unique about Spring Awakening is that there were no deaf characters per se in the show it was about the concept of communication and miscommunication and the levels of interaction amongst people Deaf West firmly believes that You have a production with the spoken language and the signed language and they select actors who want to work together And that then become became what we experienced here with Spring Awakening. I would say that Interest I'm just going to speak for a second about the two examples you gave are two very different examples because deaf What's deaf West production featured deaf actors and the first ever Actor who uses a wheelchair on Broadway first ever so for those of you that didn't know that that's like a huge thing And then the other example that you gave curious incident while that piece dealt with issues of disability that actor was not a disabled actor Which I think is is of central importance to what we're talking about tonight and in the 2013-14 season on Broadway there were actually seven Plays on Broadway that Featured characters with disabilities and not one of them was played by an actor with a disability Either as a principal or an understudy So so if you're asking to address your question about is it an anomaly right now? I would say yes, but I agree with Alexandria that I think there's a cease a sea change coming because I think people because of technology are voicing their opinions more and and their preferences more and I think the industry is is listening I Also think it stems from the education system So we're seeing younger artists with disability in mind because they were exposed to it Growing up right in a way that artists 50 years ago Maybe weren't so individuals with disabilities were in separate classrooms and separate now There's a much more inclusive environment in our many educational systems. I won't speak for all of them So I know for myself growing up I was around Individuals with disabilities all the time and that led to me as a playwright having them in my mind For characters and then what's the next step is opening your mind one step further to see? Oh, there are so many tremendous actors with disabilities to play those roles So it's a movement Yeah, and and also with the educational aspect there's another generation of Creators and artists that are coming forward and and looking to Broadway to be inspired and and with more of this happening now It's that's going to become a part of their work as they move forward Christine you brought something really good, which I wanted to talk more about which is this issue of a prep face Which is the phenomenon of a non-disabled actor playing a role with a character with a disability And so can you speak more to why is it an issue for for the community? Sure? so so The term Crip Face is it's it's more widely used and it ever has been before and I think when people started using it there was a little bit of a Hesitation to use it because it is kind of an infant in your face term But we we you know use it in you know sort of analogous to say black face or yellow face or brown face So that's why it's her face I think that It's so important because people with disability we don't as actors with disabilities We so rarely get to play ourselves Let alone just the fabric of society get to we so rarely get to play disabled characters Which is which is why I brought up that statistics of the seven shows on Broadway because it's amazing that there were seven shows on Broadway They featured characters with disabilities prominently, but super disappointing that none of those Shows featured actors with disabilities so so because You know there's there's that Feeling that people's you know we get the pushback when we say you know We'd like the practice of of Crip Face discontinued we get pushed back. Well, it's just acting It's acting isn't that what acting is that we inhabit? We have we inhabit characteristics that are not our own well. Yes, that's true And that is acting but the the fact of the matter is that as disabled people and as disabled performers There's such a history of exclusion that until that playing field is leveled that that excuse of it's just acting doesn't work Yes, I Concur with that as an artist Well, and there's always the excuse that's our job. We're actors That's what we're supposed to do and I say yes, but you must realize that what you get away with with and Representing the disabled body because it's it's it supersedes what I can quote-unquote get away with people who look at me and go Aha, she's deaf and she has limitations. So I've got an identity Branded on me, but that's not all who I am. I'm an actor Because I'm interested in sharing the human experience Sharing the stories that are out there and when someone decides for me what I can do that that pushback Is really intense. So it's a challenge because I I want to be considered equivalently With my hearing colleagues out there. I want to be respected and if I'm not viewed that way Then I'm gonna have a problem. I Won't be able to offer my art and the world will be at a loss because they haven't met the fantastic Alexandria, no, but I'm saying that it is an experience that I can bring a different perspective that otherwise They would have never had the opportunity of thinking that someone could have been brought in or as Christine could be brought in and all she could bring and people need to be open to it I think that not just as performers, but as creative people in the room I think that that's something that we've lacked I go into an audition and I scan the sea of faces. I look at who's behind the table and it bothers me a bit because There's no one there who really knows the experience of living in this world in this way and that's that's okay I mean, it's it's it's not okay if they're not allowing you to get to go for an audition But it's okay for them to make the determination of who's there. It's kind of funny I also think it's indicative of all the other communities that get that Samuel French has been taught that that all these panels have been discussing this week all of these issues are Probably for those of you who've been here more than just tonight are hearing the same things over and over and over again Because we we all do all of us who deal with a history of exclusion are dealing with People sort of appropriating our identities and thinking that they know Better than we do what the lived experience is that we have Regardless of our race our ethnicity our disability and a lot of those things intersects which we you know, haven't talked about either And winning awards for it. Yeah. Yeah And so we were talking backstage about What can be like what can playwrights do what can directors do to better like Normalize a practice of casting actors with disabilities in roles that don't require a character with a disability And so Phil you're a playwright. And so like what are your thoughts on just making this comment? Well? I got a great example Christine and I interacted early last fall Because we were leading up to a reading of a play I wrote We had a character with autism When the young woman who wanted to produce the reading came to me and we talked about producing this reading The thing that I was adamant about was that that role will be played by an actor with autism They didn't necessarily need to be on that part of the spectrum that I had written, but they needed to have lived part of that experience and Luckily, I had a very nice producer that was like, yeah, absolutely We'll find well, how do we find them and we we found Christine's organization But I think that's where it starts if the artist demand, you know The art doesn't move forward if the playwright says no, no I own this this is you know I've copy written this piece it does not move forward if the actor doesn't playing this role does not have this disability We have too many tremendous actors out there with disabilities I mean and I know I'm in a unique position and I'm surrounded in that world So I'm a little more in tune to it than other people, but you know my feet is filled with Deaf West or you know, John McGinty is out killing the game in hunchback Out on the West Coast right now the first deaf hunchback there. There's just so many Actors with disabilities that the excuse there's there's really no room for excuses and I and I think if playwrights And again, this is fill the playwright not fill TDM But fill the playwright, you know if we stand there and say no this piece Has to have an actor with disability for it to be honest because isn't that what all artists want? They want honest work. So if we start from there, I think it can be pushed forward And I'll just say, you know in my role as disability advocate It's sometimes hard to advocate for that when the writer is not committed to that or when the producer is not Committed to that because if somebody in that Capacity in that real capacity of leadership and decision-making for that project is not committed to casting something authentically it's hard for for individuals like casting directors who are making leaps and balances and in terms of authentic casting and wanting to Fold people the actors with disabilities into the regular rotation of people that they see for Disability-specific and non-disability-specific roles. There's only so much they can do So it does have to come From the playwrights and from the producers and the directors and until they start demanding it It's it's going to be in incremental progress Or until there's there's more artistic directors such as the artistic director of Deaf West who is committed to Casting actors with disabilities in Classic roles that they would not otherwise be cast in And we have a theater like that here in New York. New York Deaf theaters is here as well And also TBTB Laura you work at Yale and you were telling me about the training that you do for students to help them become more aware of Of these these issues came can you tell us more about that? Sure, so we It was started by my predecessor and we were trying to carry it forward as best we can but it's it's Each class of new students that come in they go through an orientation week and a part of their orientation week Is meeting with all their instructors, but also we have an accessibility awareness training It's about an hour and a half in length and we have guests that come in and speak to their experience So we have guests this past year. We had two guests that were blind and they came in and spoke about their the different ways that they experienced theater going and also just everyday life and we also had someone an employee of Yale University who came in to speak who is deaf and she Related her experience as well, and it's an incredibly powerful Moment for the students and it really starts to get them to it's it gets them to see these people as people and part of the arts community and part of their audience and You know, we speak about customer service. We speak about Just you know facilities and the things that we're trying to do with our facilities to bring them up to standard Yale is a pretty old University so the buildings are a challenge, but they do get this training their first year and then it is spread throughout their time So as designers move forward to Design a set in our flexible space. They are also considering the seating and how that is created and where Where is their room for everyone? What about the stages are they considering that in their design as well they are I'm and They are I Like to say that everybody is but I can't speak to that just yet But that is that that intentionality is is that part of the program? Or are you mostly focused on audiences? No, it's a part of the it's a part of the conversation and our accessibility awareness training is speaks a little bit more towards the the patron that is attending and Actually even students and faculty members now that work with us But then in the classroom our hope is that it is that that conversation continues And it has it's continued through our playwriting program a playwright wrote a role specifically for a young actress that she had met and So it is it is starting to see itself in different areas in our program, which is exciting How can like and how can this be How can casting directors and directors be better aware of when they're casting to really open it up to? to Actors with disabilities and to like look at their own unconscious bias about what a role entails Sorry, I don't want a monopoly I Just say well, it's just because you know through my work at inclusion in the arts We've been working very closely with the Diversity Committee of the Casting Society of America on this very thing And they they came to us and said you know what? We're we need to do better we as as CSA need to do better because we're not seeing Talent with disabilities with any regularity We're only bringing in people that we might know because we know them from some other capacity or we might have seen Alexandria in a show so we'll specifically bring in Alexandria But we have no sort of connection to the community the community so we need to do better so over the past two years Inclusion the arts and CSA partnered and we had a huge town hall that was a hundred actors and Ten casting directors and a lot of casting assistants Which is super important because those are going to be the casting directors of tomorrow in the room Asking questions of each other realizing that we as actors have a lot of misconceptions about what? Casting directors do and how much they're capable How much power they actually have and they have a lot of misconceptions about what it is We do what it is we need so that was a great informational tool for them and then we had an entire day of Workshops where the CSA devoted they donated their time and saw over 60 actors with disabilities in different Disciplines they conducted workshop audition workshops, and they put us on tape and and I'll say personally And I know in my role as disability advocate. I've gone in several times For nondescript roles and for disability specific roles to several different casting directors And I think that it's a direct result of their efforts Do you find that there's more representation now for artists with disabilities with agents and managers or because they can really help Yeah, get you in the room and that was part of the problem. That was part of the issue was that most disabled actors don't have Representation so they weren't getting in the room because obviously casting directors need to do these things quickly particularly for film and television It's so quick that they just go to their top five agents and they call them and they'd say give me your five people that fit this You know and so we're always left out of the mix now a few of us have representation That I think is the next step is to get the agents on board and that's a tough thing because it's their job Right and so they want actors who are going to work consistently that that they can make money off of and so it's a catch 22 because right now the industry is not allowing most actors with disabilities to work on a Consistent basis where it's lucrative enough for the agent to be willing to take us on That was a sorry long-winded answer to your question I mean Phil and you when you've casted your shows. Did you meet with any hesitancy among casting directors and? We were just through the producer, so we didn't work directly with a casting director, so I don't have that experience I will say that There was some hesitancy with other folks connected to the production With the simple question of And its ignorance of well if he has autism how's he gonna learn the role? And I you know I chuckle at it, but then I realized you know what you don't have the same life experience I have you don't have the same same education. I have You don't have friends with autism like I have So what seemed silly to me was actually a legitimate question and so it turns into an education session and I think if you're open to that and you're not put off by Educating in the moment rather than getting angry and getting fired up and realizing that it's ignorance and ignorance can be removed by education Then then then you can attack it through that way That's not to say that everyone's going to turn around and and be open to it But in my experience as a playwright they have Yes, and this is interesting because when I go into an audition I can sense a bit of resistance And I know that I'm not just here to audition I have to educate first before I can audition and I only have three minutes to do it all And then I leave so it's very intense So you have to choose your battles which one is it going to be at a certain point? I recognize that I can't do this and I need to educate or do I just audition and hope for the best and It's sticky because I I'm thinking about CSA. I attended one of the workshops and my experience was unique because I had a moment of clarity and It was interesting that the casting direct at the casting people also who gave this workshop had a similar experience. I was Comfortable presenting my lines in ASL I I could do some speaking and lip-reading but I was trying to focus to comprehend on what was being spoken by my partner So the reader was looking at the script and just speaking lines And I was already at a disadvantage Trying to lip-read or fake what not understanding on top of what was going on in the scene and During the workshop I was on camera workshop And I asked if I could ask someone in the room who already signed fluently if they could be the reader and then My audition was night and day difference It was beyond what we would have thought it would have been and that's when they saw the difference the comfort level they saw more of Who I am what I have to offer as opposed to being very Stilted and desperately trying to lip-read and like it was a favor for them And it was actually kind of painful the first time without somebody who was a fluent signer So having people in the room Then you think are they open to the idea of me coming in with my own reader Having a reader in we in in with me who's comfortable Expressing in my language that's something I'm gonna step I might have to take and see if they're willing to accept it or not and Here here we are together We know that we need to Consistently educate if we have the tools we may need to even bring our tools in with us to to help them get it To recognize the difference of what is potentially out there if they actually see it And some people It's it's an interesting conundrum because some actors are not comfortable Educating for themselves. So Alexander and I happen to be particularly comfortable because we wear a lot of hats and That's just part of the fabric of who we are but some people some performers with disabilities It's it's difficult for them because they don't know Whether they're allowed to ask questions or whether they're Allowed to ask for a reasonable accommodation or and and so then that becomes a Barrier to them doing the best work that they can do So and and that that can be hard and so that's I think what the CSA is trying to do is a great thing Because we're trying to come together and meet in the middle and realize that we don't all know everything and We both communities have a lot to learn about what the other community does So that we are giving them what they want and then they can cast us and then that makes their job easier But just like Watching Spring Awakening like it made me aware of just like how much more like the additional resonances when you put those These kind of actors in this kind of role and to see like what the the human body can do and what the voice can do And so what I guess for the for those of us who are not indoctrinated in Into this inclusive church like what is the value of being more inclusive and of putting these These actors into these roles that may not have that may not have a disability in written into the character well, I think as an audience member when I go to watch a show I Rarely see somebody like me up there. So it's simply that bringing more people Who are alive who are diverse? Who are like me on the stage so that I can connect to them and saying yes, yes, I Get it. I'm there. I Also think audiences are a lot smarter than we give them credit for We I'm talking about as an industry I think we put something in front of them. They go. Yes Wow, you know, look, this is a mate like the response to spring awakening You know by and large the response was incredible You know, it may not have been anything that that 90% of the audience would ever have envisioned But you put it in front of them if it's believable and they care about the story and the people the audience will buy It if it doesn't ring true the audience won't buy it So I like how do I better educate to let casting directors and directors and artistic directors know that this it isn't like a value taken away But a value added and and it's not going to be like Like a drain on resources I think that they that too often people see Something different is a risk And and they think that that we just it is taking time to turn people's thinking around to realize that it's not a risk We are just holding the mirror up to the audience and reflecting what is In the you know, the people that are in the audience again should be the people that are reflected on stage It's not a risk. Like you said, they're not The audience will go along for the ride. They want to yeah, I think it is a risk in that Everything we put on the stage is a risk, right, right? It's just what everything every time we step foot on the stage It's a risk of some kind whether it's a financial risk a creative risk You're always risking that somebody is gonna say I don't like that and I don't buy it and I'm not gonna spend money on it But I don't think it's any more of a risk than that and one of my mantras and And it it's kind of dovetailing to what Christine says is changing fear to curiosity because the fear is The risk and instead if people are just saying oh, but what if we could it opens it up to an entire New experience a whole new world perspective just one little shift And there's so much potential out there. I also think that when we see Something on stage. We also have to think about what's what's backstage to what about the lighting designer? What's the what's going on? What's happening backstage part of that experience as well because if we're seeing that in our collective consciousness? Then it does feel more normal and It does lead us on to produce something on the stage because the actors are the ones who are being viewed But we're not even thinking about what has not been seen what is happening backstage as well So we need to be mindful of that area as well, and I think that comes from You know the theaters and organizations and educational institutions in particular having an intentional inclusionary impulse from the top down from boards and staff and administrative and you know Artists and designers and writers and you know, it has to come from every sector of The industry that's the only way that I think that substantive long-lasting change is going to be able to be made otherwise, I think what we see sometimes is there's like We'll just take a any theater for example if the artistic director has a particular experience of disability Whether they have a disabled family member or something and okay, so that's a big agenda item for them is making sure Disability is represented at their theater when they are the artistic director And then they leave and go somewhere else and that whole initiative dies with them And so I think what we're trying to do is make it Sustainable through playwrights through directors through administrative staff through boards because if there's people at every level Saying hey wait a minute disability is part of diversity too because that's that's the biggest thing I think that we haven't said which is really obvious is that disability gets left out of the Conversation of diversity all the time. We talk about race. We talk about ethnicity. We talk about gender We talk about gender identity. We talk about sexuality. Oh We don't talk about this it's like. Oh, yeah, that's an afterthought. No disability is A culture it is part of disability and it actually is the only club that anybody can join at any time so Sorry, I didn't mean that this kind of silence No, thank you both for the really great segue to the backstage part of a conversation I mean, did you think that there's something within the way that we're training art Artists that we're not making it conducive to you know potential artists with disabilities Don't be shy There's no wrong answers here. Well, I mean, I don't know that I can really speak to that Disability nor did I go through my artist training as a playwright with anyone that had a disability which maybe speaks Speaks loudly to the thing the subject You know, I know Yeah, I think that that says a lot Yeah, I mean I have an MFA. I I'm very lucky I am one of the lucky few that has an MFA in acting and directing from a you know a Conservatory program and I also would be a and in in acting But most don't because the access to training is is Really really difficult particularly with the professional training programs in the country, but particularly In my experience people with physical disabilities Immediately the onus is on us to prove how we're going to be able to Get through the rigorous physical aspects of the program I've I interviewed with a couple of places that well, how are you going to fulfill the movement requirement? Well, no, you are the educator and you are the head of this program So we are supposed to be working if you like what you see and you see potential in me as an artist Then we're supposed to have that conversation together I'm not supposed to be the one to give you the answers on how to teach me I'm coming to you and I'm going to pay you this huge sum of money that I'm probably never going to pay off because I'm Going to school be an actor or designer And so I'm I'm looking to you for the answers and so often The because nobody has any answers they look to us for the answers and and I find it the more that we talk about education and it is changing I will say from when I went to graduate school, but I Find it really interesting that in an industry that Embrace supposedly embraces openness and the creative spirit and innovation when it comes to training it they're very rigid particularly when it comes to disability Incredibly rigid. Well, we have this and we've got the movement program and we've got the dance and we've got you know And you're deaf and so that means you would have to have an interpreter with you all the time and we just you know It's there the lack of expansive thinking Really Gets me every time so if if there was one thing I would say to feed this pipeline It would be that that the education system Particularly in the professional training programs of which there are many now around the country They need to be more open and more inclusive and realize that we have a lot to offer Do you think I would like to piggyback on that if you don't mind I I think well from my Experience my biggest challenge with education is continuing my professional training as an artist Look, I live here in New York. How many acting classes are there? It's ridiculous and every time I think about going to a class then all of a sudden the issue of interpreters arise and who is Going to pay the interpreters so I'm already a starving artist So where am I going to find the money to pay for interpreters for my training? But I value the interpreters of my colleagues. They work hard as well So it's a it's a constant balancing of these questions And I think it's very important in training programs, especially at the collegiate level to think about having budget already planned for access So that you don't have to just Figure it out in the moment have it there when it's necessary. So then instead of saying Forcing the the the the person with the disability to figure it out that it could be then it becomes an inherent Barrier to access so have it there before more moving forward and Christine mentioned about being the only person in her program. I went to a program for dance and then I after I had a BFA with dance I Transitioned into becoming a performer But I was the only deaf person in my dance department and the first year I I tried it without an interpreter because I thought it would just be movement and as we went along I realized there was more than just that I had become accustomed to dancing without an interpreter when I was young But there's so much more there was theory pedagogy And I was missing so much without an interpreter for so for the remainder of my training I did have an interpreter and it was an adjustment for the experience And I think that it also lets everyone in the room be more aware I never tried to hide the fact that I was deaf I was just present as a deaf person I was there and I wanted to become a better performer. I Wasn't trying to say look at me. I'm a person with difference. I have the different card I have the deaf card, right? I was just trying to do my job and be a student So it wasn't interesting experience, but I see that often with my peers is that We need to have Peers who wouldn't want to educate themselves want to improve themselves But then the mindset of the educational centers is the blocking for us How are they going to provide solutions is a big question and also that the assumption By some educators that we're less than that simply by the nature of the fact that we have a disability that we're not as talented and and that does happen a lot and it's it's it's it's usually because the non-disabled person doesn't know how to Deal with whatever issue is happening if someone has affected speech then they just interpret that as so well They're not gonna, you know, they're not gonna work. We don't understand what they're saying. Therefore, they're less than rather than Rather than recognizing that as as implicit bias, which is what it is And that should be a part of the conversation when educators are being hired. I Was going to ask before do you think that more can be done with recruitment so that programs that do have the ability and do Have the support I work in a place that has incredible support not just in our school at this drama school But on the university level as well. So I'm really fortunate, but I'm sure there are other programs that have the support And maybe they should be doing more recruiting. Absolutely. Yeah Yes, definitely But that comes from the top down as well. You have to convince in your specific situation you have to convince the head of the drama school that Yeah, that you should be matriculating more students with disability into, you know And in every situation that you have to start at the top for like artisans and for backstage people designers Do you think there's something within like the way we structure the industry with like 10 out of 12 and really vigorous hours? I make it really not friendly to serve to people with certain disabilities or Yeah And I don't think that is with everybody like for me because I'm so used to it And you know, I came up at a time prior to ADA So like I'm just used to you know doing What we do which is we do the 10 out of 12 or we do the 15 or we do or we rehearse for 10 hours And then you go and work a third shift job, but some people Can't do that and I think that's part of the reasonable Accommodation and so I think that a person should be judged on their skill set and Then if you if you think that person's skill set is is worthy of whatever project you're doing then you go Okay, we're hiring you. How can we accommodate you? And I think that's unique to each individual person. Yes, Christine says so I think People can avoid painting disability with broad strokes, right? Just attack each individual as an individual and approach the situation as such So, you know, some people can do 10 out of 12 and it's great There are plenty of actors that can hustle and do all that and their physical abilities allow that Some can't and you would just give in the situation, but you need to go into it Individualizing the person not paying with broad strokes of preconceived right and they're already doing it My my daughter performed in a play and she she was not allowed to work past a certain time, right? And that was more because of her age, but they're already doing it. So it's not any different than that You bring up a really interesting point because something that came up at our town hall in Alexandria I might remember this was There's a big particularly I think and please correct me if I if I'm wrong Alexandria That it's really hard on the deaf communities, especially because of the need for interpreter there's a lot of pushback about Having interpreters for auditions and interpreters for for rehearsals and because of the extra cost, right and so Interesting thing for us is the some of the deaf participants in the room We're saying saying this that there's a lot of pushback and we want we need the interpreters there Obviously to do our best work and one of the casting directors kind of had a light bulb moment She said wait a minute She said I cast a lot of musicals and we think nothing of hiring a Pianist for the day for auditions and the pianist plays for 90 seconds Then they sit around for an hour for 15 minutes until the next person comes in and then they play for 90 seconds And we think nothing of shelling that money out What why don't we have the same? Why don't we afford the same to hiring interpreters? And I think that was a real light bulb moment for the CSA and also for the actors. Yeah, yes So back in January that there's this really interesting study from the New York cultural department That said the diversity of people who worked in New York City non arts not for nonprofits don't match diversity of New York City Something like a six like 30 percent people of color working on not for profits versus 60 percent in New York City you know metro area and there is a There is a part that said we asked about disability, but there were the numbers were too small. We didn't include it in the study And so we're talking about how this this shouldn't be on stage It should be in all areas of theater and so is there some ways some ways to make the Hiring process for these positions more inclusive The Department of Cultural Affairs, I will say is working on that because they recognize that as a huge problem I mean first of all that survey didn't even say anything about disability at first Because they thought well there was no data, so we'll just leave it out And then we all kind of said well wait a minute the fact that there's no data You need to say there's no data and then we need to address the issue And so I will say the Department of Cultural Affairs is actively working on that I think institutionally it starts again ground floor so internships Were you hiring for your internships? How do most people get into their organization or build out their resume as they're in college or in grad school it's internships So it's looking at a diverse hiring pool At the start and then it expands and those then the folks anybody entering is on an even playing field They all have the same resumes right as then you're just then the disability almost becomes irrelevant You're hiring the best person But it's really important to to remember particularly when you're talking about disability and also what we're gonna I'm gonna throw in intersectionality here as well particularly for internships because if you look at the national rate of unemployment Of non-disabled people it's 20% the national rate of unemployment for disabled people is 71% So internships traditionally are unpaid right so who's gonna be able to afford to do an unpaid internship? Let's be honest. It's gonna be the non-disabled white kids pretty much right and and so I think when we think about Internships we have to think about that as well. We have to make the internships Attractive in a way for all of these underrepresented communities Otherwise, it's gonna be this if we just say okay here are these internships And you have to have a BA and they don't pay anything and you have to live in New York for a year But we're not gonna pay you anything like who's gonna apply for those You know Do we want to open up to questions or yeah? Oh talk about audiences actually? Yes, definitely. So Phil you talk you work at TDF which has a great some great initiative in terms of For audiences on on a spectrum and for also for deaf audiences. And so can you talk a little bit about those programs? Yeah, so TDF has a wide variety of programs Programs we have our autism theater initiative, which has been the program that's meeting the most publicity recently That presents for autism friendly performances a year. These are complete house buyouts The entire program is geared towards families with autism the tickets are sold to them at a discount So we take a loss a hefty loss on each performance to bring the price down to at least 50% of What the Broadway price would have been to make it affordable for families on the spectrum or families affected by autism in addition, we have Captioned last year. I believe it was 67 Broadway shows Open captioning and that continues to expand every year three years ago. It was 35 So it's growing astronomically. We also have programs for we call it general tap But it's orchestra seating for for folks with mobility Or vision or hearing loss. It seats you close to the stage, but in the orchestra And we're really delving now into with the unfortunate demise of HAI into audio description That kind of was thrown at us as they closed our phones lit up and they said you do this now And and we do now And we're really starting to ease into that and to figure out what that that world is But there's so much more to do. We're always trying to launch new programs We have a program called access for young audiences that my colleague Lea Diaz Is point person on but found it by my boss Lisa Carling But they it's for students with hearing loss and with vision loss. So it's five Wednesday matinees of Broadway shows that are Sign interpreted and open captioned and one performance that is audio described And We're trying to evolve that to the next level with a partnership with New York deaf theater where older students in the program Can be mentored by deaf artists and see that there's a career path that is there's potential for a career through that so You know, we have a ton of programs, but they're not perfect and we're always trying to make them better And evolve them, you know, we just started doing school workshops with our autism theater initiative With the Lion King. We got to make some great masks with some great kids with autism in Brooklyn. It was fantastic and talk about The artistry of puppetry and mass with them, which was great So, yeah, that was the that's the elevator pitch for TDF accessibility programs No, it's great because it goes into what we're talking about the beginning of this conversation about These audiences are coming and they want to see people who look like them on stage. It's all connected And they need to be able to experience it, right? So the show has to be accessible in some way Whether it's captioning or sign interpreting or audio description or whether there needs to be some technical adjustments for autism friendly And you know in New York, we're trying we're trying but you know I go to access conferences. I came back from the Kennedy Center's lead conference this past summer and Man am I jealous of what my friends in Chicago get to do, you know, they touch towards on every corner for You know patrons with vision loss and you know in London, you know the relaxed performance movement you know not four times a year but like four times a month and it's You know, I have a colleague Roger Odessi who's at Temple University Who's really pushing the sensory-friendly programming movement in a lot of ways and he said the summer accesses options It's not, you know, what oftentimes access becomes is an event But that's not access access is having options and we are You know, we are striving and we're pushing and technology is helping us get there With the idea of on-request access You know in the case of like handheld captioning, you know, we have the eye caption devices out there I know there are a million people trying to create an app to do on-demand captioning right now and You know it's stuff as simple as you know TDF We just started providing box offices with autism-friendly kits as simple as a character guide of the show a couple of fidgets And some noise cancelling headphones. So if a patron shows up Not an autism-friendly performance or but as their right to come to any performance We have something there that can support them in some way and just one one final question about ADA compliance and how in and our Experience Christie in particular in your experience as an audience member like how far are we from our institutions are from? For compliance in your experience, I guess it depends where we're talking about, you know, I mean Any any building that was built before 1990 was sadly is the majority of theaters in New York City Is not you know, they're not ADA compliant They're there a lot of them are trying, you know But normally it's like the seating is sort of compliant and then the restrooms aren't compliant You know, I think everybody people's intentions are great But I think what happens when we when we talk about ADA compliance and when we use the term accessibility People think that they just stop at that at accessibility at at at wheelchair accessible seating And at infrared devices at captioning and audio description and it goes so far beyond that We should be talking about the intention of inclusion throughout You know throughout everything on our stages in our audiences and basic customer service like I yeah Yeah, and I was going to say it's very a lot of times is very reactionary So instead of and we have brilliant designers. There are brilliant designers outside of the theatrical world But also in the theatrical world, you know, maybe someone can start thinking about these old Broadway houses and Coming up with an affordable option to replace the seating You know make make something that can so someone can choose wherever they'd like to sit in the theater and they can get to those seats I mean, there's there's gotta be someone with some ideas out there and then credit will credits do, you know I know at least, you know, I think it was two years ago The Gershwin folded in replacing their chairs with expanding their wheelchair seating and adding teak oil For folks who have that ability of their hearing aids. So, you know, there is there are some people thinking about it Yeah, it's great for sure I would say though in the same this is gonna seem like a stupid thing to say but know the law I mean at the very least know the ADA not just the ADA from 1990 But the but the ADA amendments act which changed in 2010 because it expanded Expanded accessibility particularly with respect to seating and I can't tell you how many Broadway houses I've been to where they don't know that the law has changed and I'd like to mention two quick things Related to the ADA know the law keep up with it, but also be transparent on your website Because for many people that's an issue if they don't have good communication how they can contact you it has to be Connected on the website. So we know what's happening on the web and maintain accurate accessibility information there Secondly, there's the National Association of the Deaf that soon will be releasing a position statement about theater 400 seats or more and with the best practices for providing in improved access with sign language Interpreting captioning and so forth and I'm I think that's a very exciting event that should be coming soon So keep your eye out for that. Great. We have seven minutes left. So let's take some questions Yes, let's jump it up here Do as a performance and Multiple managing directors those years would say to me it's great because you have this built-in audience to sell tickets to And it felt a little bit Curious about the perception within the communities as our visitors for those communities What is the perception of fear like? Is it just a thing of like I just basically asking what's what is the actual Or The conversation I'm not sure I'm hard enough, but I remember feeling like when we were dealing with the patrons, they were like, well, you should do this all the time. But that just doesn't happen in certain theaters, so is that a resentment there? And his question is, what's the opinion among members of the disability community with regards to theater and how hard is it that they're trying? Well, yes. It's a good question, a little loaded. I'll try to get an answer that may not fit the entire community perspective. But I do know that often the information of a show that has interpretation is advertised by TDF or whether it comes from hands-on, we assume that every deaf person then would have access to a computer and how are they getting information? Is it just through your website alone? And also, how would the deaf people know if they haven't been contacted through their normal communication means? So contact is part of the issue. And when you mention that it's a built-in audience, I don't think that's a negative. I actually think it's kind of a positive, like a nonprofit theater needs a subscription audience. I think it's great to be special and know that the theater is going to keep me informed of what plays are going on. That's just me, of course. I think it's nice. Yeah, I do think there's this perception, particularly among when you're trying to attract deaf audiences, that if you just say, okay, we have two ASL-interpreted performances for each show or whatever, right? That if you build it, they'll come without any outreach. You have to do the outreach to the community to say, we want you there. This is where specifically we've designed these shows for you. Because traditionally, and again, Alexander, please correct me if I'm wrong. But what we hear all the time is like, we don't go to things. I mean deaf and hard of hearing patrons, we traditionally don't go to things because we assume that it's not for us. Because nobody's reaching out to us. Unless somebody reaches out to us and says, here's this thing, and we want you there, we're welcoming you in our space, they choose not to. And even then, it's not always a guarantee that someone will want to see the play that's being interpreted, right? Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. So true. And also when we look at scheduling, that's another factor. I'm a busy person. I cannot be available for those two dates that you're offering. I mean, thank you for offering them, but I may not necessarily be available. And not everyone is able to drop everything and just go to the dates that are interpreted. It's not always the case. Yeah. Well, if I knew. Well, the question is for arts administrators, where does a funding come from? Where's the best place for it? Yeah, to start finding it. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to throw a little bit of a wet blanket on this because this is a big problem. As we come up here and we say, you should be doing this. And the truth is, there is not a lot of funding designated for people to make these changes. And sometimes they're huge structural, you know, changes that need to be made, right? Because the NEA does not provide funding for structural changes. So I'm not going to lie to you. I'm going to say someone just asked me this question, exactly this question yesterday. And I'm going to say to you what I said to her that there's not a lot of funding out there for this kind of support. But there are things you can do now that don't cost a lot of money. Like you can make your website accessible. How many of you in this room know whether your website is 508 compliant, right? You can make these accessibility tools on your website, the signage and everything you can put. All that information that Alexandria was talking about, front and center on your website. So we don't have to dig 17 pages in to find out what you do offer. I think the biggest thing is customer service, which doesn't cost anything. You can educate your front-of-house staff and say when somebody calls, have the answer to the question. If someone says I'm blind and I need assistance with a ticket, don't say hold on a minute. I'll find somebody for you to talk to. Everybody at every level should know exactly the person to go to. And if they don't know the person, they say I'm going to find that information for you. Whether it's referring them to TDF or whether you have your in-house person. Everybody who answers that phone should know. I have my phone number on their website, so just tell a charge, feel free to put it on yours. But no, I think with that, there are many organizations that will do training, sensitivity training, disability etiquette, things like that, mostly for free. And if you're looking for the audience perspective, shameless plug, TDF has a national open captioning initiative where we pay for your first two years of captioning while you develop an audience. We also have the same thing for autism-friendly performances. So if you head to our website and head to the accessibility section, you can find them. And Inclusion in the Arts does many patron services training, so we can come in and talk to your front-of-house staff about the best way to deal with the customers that are coming in, whether or not they have disabilities, just good customer service. And it needs to be ongoing. It can't just be one conversation and then you feel like you're finished. It needs to just be an ongoing conversation that's refreshed every few months as often as it needs to be so people feel confident to serve all the patrons. I don't mean to plug the place that I work for, but I work for an organization called Theater Communications Group, and we offer grants called Audience Revolution where you can actually apply for initiatives like what you're talking about. We just gave money to six theaters to fund more autism-friendly performances. Yes. Well, so the dynamic is a little different. Oh, I have to tell. So go ahead. The question is, is the U.K. better than America in terms of... My British girlfriend would agree, but the dynamic is different in that most theater and arts in the U.K. receives government funding. So they are required to do certain things as opposed to the commercial aspects here where the requirements are a little bit different and the government can't really knock on their door and be like, hey man, you got to do this where over there they can. Yeah, it is a big difference. I'll speak to my own experience as an artist. I've worked more in the U.K. than I have here, which I say that only because it's indicative of what we've been talking about is my skills are much more embraced over there because of the culture. Because over there they follow the social model of disability, which I won't get into, but there's a difference between the social model of disability and the medical model of disability. Basically, in this country we're still sort of following the medical model, which means that I have a problem and the onus is on me to fix it. In the U.K., the onus is on the society to make the society inclusive for everybody. And that's really, I just threw that out there and I know that's like a huge brain-exploding concept, but that's basically the difference. How do invisible disabilities fit into the conversation? Such as mental illness. Such as mental illness, yeah. Well, it's removing the preconceived notion that every disability is visible. That's step one, right? You know, we've been at autism-friendly performances and I've heard a volunteer say, well, what are they doing here? They don't look like they have autism. And I pull them to a side and say, let's talk about that real quick. But it is, it's just understanding that you're not going to be able to see it up front. Accommodations-wise, without prompting then though, I'm not going to have it ready unless it's already part of the institution, that it's something there. But if it's something beyond what the institution already has, I mean, you're right. It's the indicative of the medical versus the social model. Yeah. And unfortunately, I think it's still with people with invisible disabilities, it's kind of incumbent upon the person to speak up and say what they need, which it shouldn't be that way. And I don't have the answer, but that's sort of what we see is that it's still, the onus is still more on you than it should be. From the accessibility standpoint for artists, because someone who went through an MFA program and the sort of boot camp army model of no sleep, no red bull all the time, I feel like that's present in the orchestra and it doesn't really... It's not very inclusive of people who are trying to make an active effort to take care of the mental health. Are there any more questions? Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you all for coming, and thank you to our wonderful people, everyone.