 Ahidole, aloha, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. You can go to live in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German or Turk or Japanese. But anyone from any corner of the earth can come to live in America and become an American. Welcome back to A Nation of Immigrants, a new talk show program featuring the lives of immigrants, knowledge, diversity, and inclusion. Brought to you by Kingsfield Law Office in Think Tank, Hawaii, we invite renowned immigrants to discuss their life stories, immigration adventures, and contributions to cultural diversity. Today's guest is from the happiest country in the world, Bhutan, Dr. Dr. Kingdom Gebak, Educator, Researcher, Putin is American. Dr. Kingdom is a Director of Online Teaching and Learning at Minneapolis College of Art Design, as well as an Agents Professor at Indian University in Bloomington. Focusing on areas of teaching and education, she has conducted research in Nepal, Bhutan, and Bahbia, New Guinea. She holds a PhD from Indian University. Dr. Kingdom moved from Bhutan to the United States. In 2008, to pursue graduate education. She has extensive knowledge in high educational research, curriculum, and program design may serve to empower or otherwise affect marginalized communities. Welcome, Dr. Kingdom. So happy to have you here. Thank you, Chang. Thanks. Really appreciate being on your program. And yeah, lovely to see you today. Thank you. The pleasure is all ours. It's the first time we interview guests from the happiest nation in the world, Bhutan. It's my long-time dream to visit Bhutan in the not too distant future. And we worked on the Council on Asian Pacific University together. But I blessed to have this opportunity to get to know you and your country and your culture more. So please tell us a bit about yourself, your childhood, education, and your current work. All right. So yes, I grew up in Bhutan. I was born in 1985. I went to the... I really had the opportunity to enjoy a free public education in Bhutan. So from primary school to high school, I was in Bhutan. Then I went to the Philippines to pursue my undergraduate education. And then I returned back to Bhutan to work. At that time, my undergrad was in computer science. So I went back to work in a telecom company where there were very few female engineers at that time. So I worked for two years. And then I always had this interest to work with children because as I was working as an engineer, I was traveling through a lot of remote places in Bhutan, setting up the networking infrastructure. And during that time, there were a lot of children from the village that would follow me and ask me about the computer. And at that time, this was early 2000. The idea of having a personal computer in your own homes was still very new in Bhutan. Even in schools, none of us had a personal computer at home. We had a computer class in the schools, but we never really had how we interact with computers today. And so I had this interest looking, interacting with the children, their fascination for the computer. So I wanted to go and pursue my masters with my background in computers and then of masters in education. So that's when I came to the United States. I think sometime early 2008 to El Paso Texas to pursue my masters. And what's funny is El Paso, the campus and University of Texas in El Paso is pretty much built around the design of Bhutanese architecture. Yeah, it has a very interesting history. So I think sometime in 1907 or 1910, I'm not very familiar with the date, but a long time ago, there was a National Geographic article on Bhutan. And at that time, UTEP, as it was called, University of Texas in El Paso, was called the Mining School. So it had burned down. And then the president, they were looking for ideas of how to build a campus. And I think the president's wife saw this National Geographic article with the Bhutanese architecture. And they essentially used that as a, I guess, inspiration. So it kind of really blended in with the environment in El Paso because it has this very desert feel. And you have this big massive forts everywhere. So if you ever get a chance to go to El Paso, you should go to UTEP. And then sometime in 2009, the government of Bhutan had a Smithsonian exhibition on Bhutan. I think the Smithsonian Institute has different countries present their culture or background. And I think at that time, it was Bhutan. So Bhutan had then donated a Buddhist temple to the school. So they, it's amazing how they did it. They built it all into like, like, you know, like almost like small pieces in Bhutan. A lot of artisans had painted this temple. They brought it to Washington DC, put it together for the Smithsonian show. And then it was later donated to the university. So if you go to El Paso, you should check that out. It looked like a Buddhist temple in Bhutan. You feel like you're in Bhutan. So I finished my master's there. And I think I worked two years as a consultant in the university. And then I never had a thought to do my PhD. I think I wanted to work, but I was pushed by some professors and like, you should do a PhD. And at that time I was like, I think I was not in the mindset to do it, but I think somehow it just, I think being pushed, being pushed kind of like encouraged me to apply. So I applied to Indiana University and then I got accepted as a graduate student. And I started my PhD sometime in 2012 in instructional systems, technology. And at that time during my master's, I focused more on the digital divide issues. And I did research back in Bhutan, looking at how to help rural children in a school use the computer to do digital storytelling. So I started a digital storytelling project and the whole idea was to blend like our own culture of storytelling and tie it with like the modern technology of computer. So there was this old and new emphasis in my research. And so I wanted to continue on that in my PhD. But in my PhD, I moved more into the idea of design and looking at how are these systems designed. And ultimately it is the teachers that use these tools in the schools. So I wanted to focus on how do teachers in highly under resourced schools, like whether it's in Bhutan or even here in the US, there are some schools in rural areas that are not actually forget about rural areas, even in cities, some cities, right? Some public schools are not well funded and they don't have adequate technology. So how do teachers in under resourced classroom environments, how are they still effectively or creatively able to teach? So that was the big focus of my research. And I did some research in Papua New Guinea studying some of that teacher thinking. I spent about two months living in a village in the western highlands of New Guinea, working with teachers and community leaders in developing a water sanitation hygiene curriculum with no technology. So it was looking at just how do you teach in a classroom where you have no classroom resources, right? So forget about even having a blackboard or a chalk, but where you have nothing and how can you still effectively engage students in those environments? So I took a little bit of what I learned there and then I went back to Bhutan for my dissertation to study how teachers all across Bhutan in very rural schools. How were they able to teach rural schools? But even like schools, they were looking at how they were even able to teach special needs children, so teaching disabled kids. So that was the focus of my dissertation, looking at how teaching can still happen, learning can still be interesting in environments where you have nothing. So that was the whole basis of my research. Oh my, it's an absolutely amazing story. I had the impression that all the Bhutanese are philosophers, right? Buddhist practitioners, obviously, you are a philosopher and deep thinkers, but never crossed my mind that a doctor from Bhutan and so versatile in technology, in a very sophisticated technology and a computer science, you're just an absolutely amazing story. That, well, I'm still under the impression that Bhutan is not a materialist, is not a consumerist side, is not undergoing any radical economic reform to be part of the capitalist community. So, but Buddha has been constantly ranked one of the happiest country in the world, and at least in Asia, and number eight in the world last time I checked. And I'm not going to argue that, you know, being Buddhist would make you happy, but I do want to ask you, were you happier when you were in Bhutan or are you happier now in Minnesota? Well, I think the concept of happiness, you are happy where you are, right? So I think you have to be happy within yourself. However, yeah, I think there's certain truths to what you're alluding to. Of course, I don't, you know, Bhutan has its own problems. I think there's also challenges as Bhutan develops more into a more modern society. There is this push into equating happiness with materialism, you know, materialistic goods. So there is always that challenge and balance. However, I think the overall ethos of what grounds Bhutanese people or our culture is, it is a, it is heavily based on this idea of gross national happiness. And so I think when people talk about happiest country in the world, I think Bhutan did import, export, sorry, Bhutan did export the idea of gross national happiness. And it's really based on this development philosophy where we don't really, we do understand that material development takes us so far. But then, you know, what makes us happy as people is it's a very interdependent, very ecological, and you're right. I think a very Buddhist centered way of, you know, considering all of these parts together, right? So environmental conservation, cultural conservation, so, which is our identity as people, right? So I think when having that sense of shared identity, having respect for the planet, having, so I think, and then also like part of the gross national happiness philosophy is also maintaining or moving to, towards this idea of good governance. So what does that look like? So I would not say Bhutan is perfect or everyone is happy, but I think we are grounded in a more balanced idea of, you know, what happiness could look like for all people. So going back to your question of, am I happy here in Bhutan? I think it's, like I think what America does provide is, you know, there is this opportunity to grow, you know, in terms of material happiness, right? You know, you get very educated, you are able to get a job where you can make a decent living, you know, buy stuff you want to buy. But I think what's also missing a little bit is this sense of collective happiness. Or I think the focus in America has, is really emphasizing the I, right? The, you know, my happiness, my feelings, like we have the iPhone, you know? So, and I think this I culture in some way has a tension with the we culture, right? So just look at our social programs in America. Like I'm very pregnant with twins right now. And Bhutan has a six month, thank you, but Bhutan has a six month maternity leave, you know, paid maternity leave for women. And here that's almost unheard of, right? Unless they are companies that are progressive, that are able to provide maternity leave. So I think just thinking about like what the values are as a society. So teachers are very underpaid here in America, you know, and, you know, education is supposed to help develop the country, right? Develop, nurture the next group of thinkers and doers. So I think it's, I think there is a need to assess what our values are here. I think there's a lot of good things America does offer in terms of progressing one's career, you know, making a living. You know, anyone, you know, regardless of your social status, whether you've come from a rich family or a poor family, you know, you're able to somehow proceed, right? Or progress if you work hard, you get an education. But there's also a lot of these big social issues. I feel that I believe that, you know, would contribute to a more happier us than just me. You're very well said. I totally agree with you. It's my favorite quote about happiness. One is, the United States is a vast conspiracy to make you happy. That quote was a particular referring to materialism or consumerism. And I don't think that will work very long. And another, well, on the other hand, another quote was, what is a happiness? A happiness is working with the people you respect. And also, these people also respect you. So I think that refers to a sense of community, that either you can get that in the United States, or you can have that in Bhutan or any other cultural environment as well. So I love your answer. I think that your understanding of happiness is very mature. And I totally agree with you. And let's move to the next question. When was your last time in Bhutan? And do you have any trip planned to go to Bhutan next time? And basically, what's your impression, has Bhutan changed from your early childhood to today? And what's your general impression? Absolutely. So I think Bhutan has seen an unprecedented growth in terms of development the last 15 years or so. And the last 15 years have been in America for the last 15 years. So yes, it's changed a lot in terms of there's more houses. Population has increased a little bit. There's even a more very explicit move of people from rural into urban areas. So urban areas is highly saturated. It's not like the, I guess, the Bhutan that I grew up within my childhood. So I remember I grew up in the capital city of Pimpu. And when I was young, you would walk in the street and then you would recognize people and say, you would say, hi, hello, or they know your parents. But now if you go back, you walk in the streets. You don't really know people as much. So there is a lot of same population has increased. More people have come in from different villages, towns into the main city. I wouldn't say city, but a big town. Pimpu is more so like a big town. It doesn't have skyscrapers and it's a different kind of feel of a capital. The last time I was in Bhutan was in 2019. Yeah, it was recent. So Bhutanese people have very strong family ties. So I have a very big family and cousins, cousins, children, uncles, aunts. And so every trip to Bhutan is always filled with visiting everyone. So by the time, like even if I go for a month, it's going to eat in everyone's house. And by the time you go and eat everywhere, your vacation has ended, you know. Yeah, definitely. Same here. Yeah. So it's always like that. So it was nice to, like I spent a longer time there because I left my position. I was working in the University of Wisconsin. I left it and I wanted to spend a little longer time with my family. So my husband also went with me and we spent maybe about two months in Bhutan, which was really nice because every time I go, it was always this very short trip, you know, like three weeks or two weeks. And it's hard to really get a sense of the place. But yes, it's seen a lot of development. I would say younger people have the same problems as young people here in America. You know, I noticed a lot of young people are hooked onto their phones, right? So there's this whole, you know, American pop culture is, has, you know, hugely impressed with these youngsters too. So people want to dress up like that, speak like that. You know, so I think there is a, there's definitely a change. And then with the pandemic, I haven't been able to go back. So I'm looking forward to my mom visiting next week, hopefully. For you, yeah. I love to go to Bhutan. It's, you know, Buddhist believing reincarnation. I believe, I feel this tremendous affinity to Tibetan culture and as well as Bhutan and Nepal. So I feel like that I firmly believe that I was a Tibetan in one of my prior lives. And because of this, just unexplainable, tremendous affinity to the culture and to the heritage. So if you would imagine your prior life, that would, what would you imagine would you be an American because you'll settle in the United States now? Maybe, maybe that's why I came here. I married an American, right? So yeah, perhaps, you know, perhaps maybe that's why I started a life here in America. Actually, it's funny you mentioned that, because when I was a really small girl, I've always wanted to go to America. I don't know if it was the movies or the pop culture references, but I've always wanted to go to America. So I, maybe. I agree that, you know, it's a, you, you, there is everything happened for a reason. You're, you're here. There's a, just to think about it, there are seven billion people on this planet. And the reason we have this opportunity to sit down and to even engage in a meaningful conversation, that, that is very privileged, privileged. And you were born in Bhutan, and you end up American in the state of Minnesota. I think there is a reason for that. And science probably cannot explain that. But I have my explanation that is based on philosophy. Anyway, I don't want to, you know, rambling on my own thinking, but I do want to ask you a couple of questions. Normally we ask for, to every hour distinguished guest. Then the first question is, if you were to give some advice to yourself in your early 20s, what would you say? And the second question, is there any particular books or fiction or movie or documentary you would recommend to share with our audience? Oh, that's a very heavy question. Yeah, I know, that's intentional. So if I was supposed to give an advice in my 20s, I don't know. I'm not saying the decisions I've made in my 20s have been perfect, but I think I've always, I've kind of done what I've wanted to do, set my intentions. So I think, you know, follow your heart, don't be afraid to make mistakes. Don't be too hard on yourself. I think life is a journey where you continuously learn, unlearn, learn, unlearn. I think that's the beauty of being in education is, we are lifelong learners. And yeah, that's the advice I would give myself. And I've also followed some of it, you know, but I think I'm still in the journey of learning. Fantastic advice. I appreciate that. You know, I probably will give the same advice to myself as well. And any recommendations you would like to share? Books-wise, I do read quite a lot. So off the top of my head, the current book I'm reading is by Jay Shetty, How to Think Like a Monk. Oh yeah, that's a great book. It's a very interesting book about applying some of these philosophies we talked about with this philosophy, Hindu philosophy into our day-to-day life. And that's one book that I'm currently reading. I have a number of books that I open up and then I read here and there. So another book that I'm currently reading is Naomi Oresca's Merchants of Doubt. Merchants of Doubt. It's a very interesting book about, like a lot of, she's a scientific historian where she's done research looking at, you know, the lies, the tobacco industry or the dairy industry. You know, and now the fossil fuel industry is doing in terms of changing public opinion, in the U.S. And I think it's very important for Americans to be educated and learn about what's going on, rather than following talking heads on a television. I think it's important to learn why are the state of the things they are, there's a lot of problems. I think gun violence is even one of them. Why do we keep seeing such tragic situations over and over again? And, you know, there is something there to be learned. So those are some books that I'm currently reading, documentary, movie-wise. Very interesting documentary I watched recently was on Netflix called The Bad Vegan. I don't know if you've heard of it. Bad Vegan. Bad Vegan. Really? Okay. That sounds a bit old-fashioned to me. Yeah, it's very, I'm very interested in psychology and, you know, how people get influenced, you know, just mind control and, you know, basically just the people of psychology, right? Why do they do the things they do? And so the premise of this documentary is very interesting. Like, she's a very famous restaurateur in New York City, very smart. And then she gets sucked into this scam where she ends up losing all of her business, you know, but it's what's interesting is it's almost like a mind control that happens, you know, with her situation. But yeah, if you have time, watch that documentary. Thank you so much for the documentary. Yeah, well, from your recommendation, you'll see we see you have a pretty broad interest, is very highly intellectual, and I really appreciate that. For the record, my recommendation will be our beloved Buddhist mentor, Tsung Tsarimbo-che, all of his books and all of his movies. Well, we run out of time. Thank you so much for your, you know, time. Dr. Kudun Kinden and Gabe Bak. I want to pronounce his right. Educator, researcher, computer scientist, and doctor of philosophy from the happiest nation in the world, Putan. Really appreciate your time. It's a privilege to talk to you. I hope that I can visit your country in the not too distant future, and I hope we will continue our discussion. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.