 Talk about a guy named Anthony Tott. I believe that's how you say his name and he's done some pretty bad stuff Greg, I want you to tell us about the videos we're gonna watch Yeah, and if I mispronounce his name and call him toad just expect it I will at some point but this video is him on the stand Testifying the first one we're gonna see is him under direct and then under cross What we did not choose to do is the police interrogation and confession of this guy He's changed stories three times. So we know he's a liar We just don't know when he's lying until we watch this video and we'll show you what we see The story is his wife his 13 year old his 11 year old and his four-year-old daughter were all murdered and he was charged with their murders and sentenced to life in prison without parole and murdered his dog and Was suffocated his dog and was given an extra year in addition to his life sentence for that So he's a convicted murderer whether you want to believe what he says here or not It's another story and stayed in the house with all his family's dead bodies Piled up in the master bedroom for several weeks after the murders What was the occurrence that made that day memorable? I came home and my kids were dead It was the most horrible day of my life And what I mean was more horrible is my wife died in front of me. Oh, had there been a Blueberry pie that was cooked in the house According to what she told me Jackson here said and I want just a second mr. Toad response Describe what you know or saw and not what you heard from another person if you can thank you, sir When I came home that morning, I knew my family the night before was having dessert and I declined it because you saw my health I was jogging and losing weight I came home that morning and it was a melted purple Looked like a pudding pie I can't really tell you exactly what it was She told me what it was later, but it was in a graham cracker crust and the the kitchen It was my job to clean the kitchen But when I came home that purple bluish grape-ish Melted Pie, I guess you must say the pie dish was sitting there on the counter with some residue on the kids um At the kids places on their on their plates All right mark, what do you got? Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about emotions because that's what hits me about this first one clearly Right at the start of this piece. He's looking to inform his his audience My guess is a jury to one side of him or that some emotions are going on And you know, you be the judge of whether you think they're Real or false or or whatever, but let me tell you a little bit about emotions for the whole of kind of western history The element of water has been associated with emotions and the and the humours the the things that create our mind back in medieval days These four humours were liquids and they would kind of wash around in you And so you get this general idea from the start of psychology early psychology That emotions kind of flow and they collide and they mix with each other Well, here's what happens in this situation. You get this kind of Fluid at the start But then it turns to ice really quickly. Look how it quickly becomes a very very solid State and that's why I believe if you look at this and you go There's something kind of up with this. It's not just The collision of ideas at the start or the or that it doesn't quite flow As you'd quite like it's that it suddenly stops around second 50 around second 50 It goes to ice and so it's no surprise that often for people who we feel are emotionless or hollow Or even we might call them psychopathic or or sociopathic We'll often use the metaphor of ice for them because it's that state of water not being fluid anymore and being set And locked and it can't collide there Greg. What do you got on this one? Yeah, I agree with you and I must point out exactly where the change occurs This is a really interesting one because Before he starts to talk before he's asked the question he engages a grief muscle Which makes me think show show show and tell and he ambers. I'll just use that as a verb He turns to the audience or to the jury and boom full blown everything. He's got there, but it's not real It's not believable. It does look like remorse. There's sorrow in his brows. His chin is up His chin boss is involved. He's trying to contain his emotion with his lips. That all looks real There's a lot of reasons to have remorse Killing your family might be a reason to have remorse not that your family died But that grief muscle showing up before he's even asked the question is an interesting one It makes me think okay here. I'm prepared and I'm ready to go And when he starts talking about I came home and my children were dead. There's no anger Look, my wife is there. My children are dead. What sane person walks in the door your wife's there Your children are dead. She tells you kill them and there's no anger. There's all this other emotion There's no anger. That's odd and misplaced. I'll give him the benefit of a doubt Go further into this before we figure it out But I've watched all these videos and I have an opinion you'll find out later But this stuff changes so quickly he has rapid Grief muscle there and then it just disappears when he says at my wife died also And he gets a little tear He's doing something I call milking your eyes squeezing the hell out of his eyes So you get a little bit of fluid to come out of your eyes And he tongue juts at according to what she told me now go watch his interrogation if you have the stomach for it It's horrible You'll learn that this was benadryl baked into a pie and some kind of a frozen treat for the kids So they could do something to the kids more easily He knew what it was his eyes dropped down to his left as he navigates the message That doesn't always mean he's lying but in this case it does and all that emotion just disappears from his face When the rescuer asks the question he goes into internal voice and says thank you Sir as if he's talking to a guy about ice cream And then he goes to high ground I was jogging because I was losing weight And then he goes back to a normal baseline with no emotion. That's a lot going on And a lot of fading mark to your point. We call it freezing. It's just disappeared This is the most emotional thing that most people would ever go through in their lives And for him just gone like that chase. What do you got? Totally agree with you Throughout this whole thing there's no emotional accessing and that's when someone moves their eyes down into their right to their right So if you're sitting in a tesla and you look at that big screen, that's emotional accessing there Would be for me. There's an eye flutter As as well there and that it's typically a response to some kind of mental stress or what we call cognitive load. They're processing data grief could be from regret Not the recall So we're seeing a little bit of grief there and let me just make a quick distinction When we're talking about shame shame is an external emotion that we show publicly Guilt is an internal feeling That we feel inside. So shame is external guilt is internal There's no mention of anybody's name here And this is a big deal that we see commonly in guilty people Again, there's fishing perpetrator Kids were dead not my wife had killed them. My kids were dead I came home and my kids were dead That's a big deal. That's vanishing perpetrator and when he says blueberry pie he gets to talk about blueberry crap, whatever you're talking about There's instant excitement. There's micro eye widening. You can see his eyes get bigger There's an instant drop of sadness on the face all that sadness He's like, oh, this is the time where I get to talk about the pie and I counted he spent 970 more time talking about the details of this blueberry pie than the deaths of his wife and children That's a big deal and seven and a half Milligrams per kilogram is an overdose limit of benign drill. I weigh 75 kilograms gave or take so that would be Give or take 750 or something like that. But listen again You'll hear a lot of detail but the detail added is made to inject ambiguity So anytime you hear a spike of detail and it's not about the relevant event and the details actually Add ambiguity to the story. That should be the most massive red flag of all Scott All right All you guys are spot on I've we're seeing an attempt at sadness This isn't sadness because when she asked him the question just like amber heard He looks over at the jury and he starts delivering We're not other than that little watery thing. Greg you're going to call it a tear I've got to give him that there's no redness in the sclera. There's no residual redness anywhere on him That the we see the globella contracting and that grief muscle is not even a real grief muscle It's just he's trying his best and he tries to keep that engaged because we see keep disappearing Then it comes back down because when that's happening you can't help it This part goes down Like it comes inward and upward and this part comes down and that's what makes that upside down horseshoe looking thing And you wouldn't say I came home and my kids were dead You wouldn't say I came home You said I found my kid's dad when she asked him what happened that day I found my kid's dad He would have said I found my whole family dad or my family But he zeroes in on the kids first and thought that was odd The question about the blueberry pie Greg you're spot on with that Two seconds after he gets into that all that sadness is gone. That's it's just boom. It's gone Nothing nothing no residual anything in that emotion anywhere and then Everything he talks about he has this these extremely detailed memories Like you were talking about chase about the pie and this and the door as we go through these Listen to all the details this guy throws out about everything But when you start talking about what actually happened Watch how far away he gets from that but everything is this really odd detail and that's because he's thought his story He's got a lot of time to sit in there while he's thinking how am I going to I already told him I did How am I going to switch this around and make it look like That I didn't do it How am I going to get out of this and he's thought and thought and he's walked his way through that Okay, here's what I'm going to say then and that's why it comes up with all it has to stop him and say You want the whole story which we're going to see in a few minutes It's just it's it's ridiculous He's he's trying so hard to look like one thing when he's actually something else So that's why he's in defense mode It sounds like if these were swords when they were talking it would just sound like a fencing tournament in there Because every time the the attorney asks something he juts He just squirts back really quickly with it with a quick short tight answer What was the occurrence that made that thing memorable? I came home and my kids were dead It was the most horrible day of my life And what I mean more horrible is my wife died in front of meals Have there been a A blueberry pie that was cooked in the house According to what she told me Junction here set And I want just a second mr. Tote response Describe what you know or saw and not what you heard from another person if you can thank you, sir When I came home that morning I knew my family the night before was having dessert and I declined it because you saw my health I was jogging and losing weight I came home that morning and there was a melted purple looked like a pudding pie I can't really tell you exactly what it was She told me what it was later But it was in a graham cracker crust and the The kitchen It was my job to clean the kitchen But when I came home that purple blueish gray fish melted pie I guess you must say in a pie dish was sitting there on the counter with some residue on the kids um at the kids places on their on their plates You get back and now it's daylight the sun is up yes and Which door the house you go into backdoor and what do you do go to pee after I walked through the kitchen and saw the remnants of everything okay so you see everything still on the table you walk you pass the bathroom to go upstairs right no I went to the bathroom downstairs okay I thought earlier you testified that you went upstairs after I went to the bathroom what I testified was I went to the bathroom then went upstairs and meet my wife okay so at what point did she come to the top of the stairs then when I came out of the bathroom downstairs she must have heard motions she was at the top of the stairs okay so were the doors to the library open or closed don't know didn't see them is the library not close to the stairs the library is past the stairs that's correct but when you have to pee you have to pee well you're standing at the bottom of the stairs looking up at Megan at the stairs you can't see the doors to the library ma'am can you see that gentleman back there Mike you don't ask me questions I ask you questions can you see the door to the library when you're standing at the stairs looking up at Megan no and you're engaging with Megan and what is Megan's demeanor not what she says what is she doing and how is she appear to you she's standing at the top of the stairs she has tears in her eyes and says you're alive okay and what is she wearing she's wearing my gray hydro works shirt which is something she usually slept in and she's wearing some kind of pants of some sort she had clothes on and did she have any injuries at that point ma'am I she was standing there she was fine I don't know I hugged her, kissed her, told her I'm sorry I'm late Greg what do you got yeah I'm gonna be long on this when I warn you because this is a good example of smart she meets bad questioning and she does a poor job of questioning I'm gonna point out the mechanics of questioning where she fails because she's effectively showing him the story he came in with a plan you can see it clearly he doesn't access anything he's telling you what he remembers it's rote memory he's just rolling it off watch the lack of eye contact with a jury now he's on with her he knows she's a threat he's not trying to convince he's locked on the threat he's doing what Scott and I call in the true crime workshop the romancer I mean eyes locked all constant attention very little blink rate he starts that iterative storytelling and he does lip compressions at almost every step now we mean iterative storytelling I'm gonna give you a little piece of information to get my next piece out so that I get out what I want you to hear and when we say lip compression often that's withheld information or emotion he goes through that and he starts to bite the inside of his mouth that's an adapter it's a way to release nervous energy because he can see what's coming she allows him to deny and that could be part about the door being closed or the door being near the bathroom that could be a molestation technique you can feign ignorance and say isn't the door near this that's what it is bad questioning it's a bad style when he's looking his brain yesterday at zero there's none his purse lips indicate he's got some apprehension and he's hanging onto her words and ready for a tort he's just waiting here's where she really makes a mess of the questions if you're listening I'll send you a class for free because these are horrible questions a leading question when you ask was this was the door here okay that's a leading question yes or no is all they can answer compound was that means you're asking a question yes or no too and it should be that way negative was the library not close to the stairs all of that creates confusion and allows this guy room to do a lot of bs and if you ask the questions more concisely without giving him that wiggle room you get information so all that ambiguity allows him to get away with some things and all those lip compressions and that he starts to feel like he's got the upper hand you see him moving his body around he's feeling a little stress the other one that there's a source lead and a source lead is when somebody says something you should follow up on and jump on it immediately she misses is his wife said you are alive hmm why would she be asking you that would be one of the things he's not accessing and he has concerned his brows he replies for the only only time and he does do I'll bring it up chase because I got my notes he's got one single shoulder hoppin all over the place I know that's usually but this is a mess and he's getting away with some iterative storytelling we'll see that come apart later we'll see that again he first when he answers questions then he backtracks and starts adding all these qualifiers to it because he's forgotten to say that he hasn't practiced this story out loud he's always practicing in his head when he's in his cell so as he tells the story he says whatever the part is they ask gives him the answer and he goes back and starts adding things to it you're right his adapter is that lip grip and that mouth movement that chewing arms mouth and all that and going everything we teach about deception we're seeing in this everything from stress mouth to quick little shoulder shrugs to adapters this is this is great because everything we talk about you're going to see it here but it's so blatant it's hard to even take seriously that it almost looks like it's been set up because there are so many of them his cadence is moving right along a fairly good clip his eye contact is hard he's trying to make sure he's got all the information so he has see how it fits within his story so he can deliver that really well and at the very end we see what I call mercy hands when that hand goes up and it's like oh please have mercy on me please believe what I'm saying you can't see it hardly but when you see that that's what I call it's not like this when somebody's doing this it's that complete that and those palms come up and they push their hands out like that mercy hands alright chase what you got yep I agree with you guys I saw a lot of the same stuff I'll just go through the things that y'all didn't cover yet this I just wanted to look at this choppy quick vocal shift here when he's addressing the opposing council his attorney might not be the best in the world at preparation there should have been a like the attorney says okay this guy freaks out easily I'm gonna set up a hand signal if I reach my arm up and I start scratching my head to get your attention you need to calm down and then you need to stay calm there's a chin boss movement at this question and question to you is this shame or guilt seeing the remnants of everything or response to the guilt of either maybe lying about it and I think this is almost just embarrassing to watch for me his chest is heaving fighter flies kicking in of course and when she's saying it's the library not close to the stairs uses maybe a 10 ish o'clock accessing so his eyes are moving to our 10 o'clock as we're looking at his face so I of course that he knows where this is he's processing the data so I as an interrogator you as a panelist will be knowing like that's truthful information I'm gonna file this away in my brain that 10 o'clock movement is very important for when I'm about to ask other questions here in the next few minutes and they're gonna be important like he goes like see that man over there he's like challenging her she does nothing about it his chin kind of goes up in this little defiance like like an 11 year old and I think it's really great that when she does actually kind of smack down a little bit like you don't ask me questions there's a postural retreat there's an eyebrow flash for innocence there and a dominant shoulder retreat of some kind of concealed anger so a lot of people we have types of people in the world some people practice self control this guy's lived his whole life practicing self restraint and you can see it so he has no control he has to use like an emergency break for everything because he these everything in his life gets out of hand my best psychology professor I ever had in my life said you're only ever going to see two types of patients those who need loosening and those who need tightening this guy needs a little loosening and happiness brings you loosening not pleasure and there is a difference there's a whole lot of stuff to have here the final thing I'll skip over everything else when she's asking it was she injured was there any injuries what a moron and this is my opinion I'll just say that right now you'll be able to dissect one this one easily I think my dog could dissect this it's we're seeing a child trapped inside of it what should be a man's body that's all I got okay so let's tap into this idea of emotions a little bit and work out which emotions might be real in him which are not potentially well actually more going to be which ones are true for him so remember the premise is is that emotions are like water because they flow and they merge and they're either like water water is either very very direct yeah or totally indirect it either goes where you think it's going to go or goes where you didn't think it was going to go but goes there directly or it kind of just meanders around and you go where the hell's that water going how did it get from there to there well what I want you notice at the start is that his gestures are very indirect at the start a lot of breaks in the line of energy there as he kind of points within what I'd call first circle you know close into his body but then as he says hey see that that gentleman over there suddenly becomes very very direct well I'd suggest because he's transitioning now to anger that's we got that look out the juice and the line of energy that's very real okay he really wants to take control of that moment and goes very very direct so from indirect again very true that he doesn't quite know where he is at the moment and he's trying to find his stability and then very very direct take control she says I ask the questions and just as Chase was saying there we then get some very indirect movement we get the head wobble he moves to the side and loud his whole different type of look nothing made up there all of that very very true in terms of his own emotional state he's telling all kinds of other stories but the emotional state he's in there of anger trying to take control then realizing he does have control and he's going to have to sit back and and go with the flow of thoughts going on again very very true you get back and now it's daylight the sun is up yes and which door of the house you go into back door so you go in the back door and what do you do go to peak after I walk through the kitchen and saw the remnants of everything okay so you see everything still on the table you walk you pass the bathroom to go upstairs right I went to the bathroom downstairs okay I thought earlier you testified that you went upstairs after I went to the bathroom what I testified was I went to the bathroom then went upstairs and meet my wife okay so what point did she come to the top of the stairs then when I came out of the bathroom downstairs she must have heard motion she was up the top of the stairs okay so were the doors to the library open or closed don't know didn't see them is the library not to the stairs the library is past the stairs that's correct but when you have to pee you have to pee well you're standing at the bottom of the stairs looking up at Megan at the stairs you can't see the doors to the library ma'am can you see that gentleman back there Mike you don't ask me questions I ask you questions can you see the door to the library when you're standing at the stairs looking up at Megan no okay and you're engaging with Megan and what is Megan's demeanor not what she says what is she doing and how is she appear to you she's standing at the top of the stairs she has tears in her eyes and says you're alive okay and what is she wearing she's wearing my gray hydro works shirt which is something she usually slept in and she's wearing some kind of pants of some sort she had clothes on and did she have any injuries at that point ma'am I she was standing there she was fine I don't know I hugged her, kissed her, told her I'm sorry I'm late Alec and Tyler's door open dad I don't recall ma'am I'm sorry why did you go to Zoe's room because she said she she said the kids were dead and Zoe was my little angel that's the first one I went to so when you get into Zoe's room what do you see there's a pillow on her head there's a hand and there's covers on top of her she's laying on her mattress on the floor the mattress is on the floor she's laying on her mattress what do you do I went over to her I uncovered her face with a pillow she had told me that she had stabbed the kids so of course I look for blood I look for anything I look for any sign of life it was nothing I turned back to her I said I thought you stabbed her I thought I didn't I didn't know it bounced off of her okay so after you discover Zoe what do you do I went to the bathroom and picked up a washcloth her mouth was open her eyes were open she looked uncomfortable it's my normal demeanor to help put my kids in rest don't ask me why I did it I was trying to close her eyes okay so where's Megan when you're doing this she was following me talking to me at one point she was standing in the doorway talking to me from the doorway to me because I was asking her I said I thought you stabbed the kids okay so you said you had charged your phone the night before did you have your phone I said I plugged in and attempted to charge little did I know that the charger was not a direct charger I didn't have the engine on the battery never charged and I also found out that phone wasn't an active phone that was an active that was a phone that we use for things so no it was not charged and it was not a technical phone okay were there other phones in the house there were other possessions of phones in the house but Megan hid them it would not tell me where she hid them so it's your testimony that you could not have called anybody that's correct you can have a phone alright Chase what do you got alright here we are remember when I asked you to pay attention to that 10 o'clock eye movement to recall the details of the house well right here we see something very different what we see is 2 o'clock so not only are we in a different position we're in a different hemisphere a different part of the brain is being accessed here which is a gigantic red flag a Texas sized red flag what happened to the emotions about the incident we're not seeing those and we're also seeing something very unusual here we're seeing a person who's uncomfortable getting angry and when you see this if the person is actually angry and you don't see their actual response to anger but you see self restraint and you see other little behaviors that are childlike which is exactly what we're seeing here if you ever meet somebody like this you're either facing somebody with low self control or somebody who's going to push you in front of a bus to save themselves because they doubt themselves that much and people with a high self worth and high self control are able to exhibit being angry without any risk of violence and that's the difference there he's clinically going through this description of finding her like a surgeon would describe this to one of his colleagues about cutting open somebody's heart and this is horrifying and he's not even feeling anything and then there's dissociative language when he's talking about his own children a hand, he uses the word a hand was there and never uses their names there's a pillow on her head there's a hand and there's covers on top of her she's laying on her mattress on the floor she's laying on her mattress and you already know this is complete and total BS but we're here to point out why your brain sees that so clearly so he's checking the child to see if she's alive and his only confusion here is about not seeing stab wounds it was nothing I turned back to her and I said I thought you stabbed her that's it no emotion, nothing else the craziest thing I've ever heard and using a wash cloth to close her eyes I think this is actually truthful in some regard I think this was a time where he actually just covered their faces and a lot of times when murderers are really close to victims the shame of seeing their face and especially their eyes because eyelids don't close like they do in movies this is usually going to drive murderers to cover up faces and I have gotten desensitized to some seriously horrific stuff kids in cases like this are not something you can get used to and this is a horrific case but this guy is almost so stupid it's hilarious so there's at least that that we can enjoy while we're here Mark, what do you got? so he wants you to believe that what he's saying has some emotion to it but it is true but how can we tell whether it's true or false true or false true or false well is he acting like water at the moment is there some flow to it is it indirect in its flow or is it very direct in its flow or is he more like ice well you're probably going to say he's more like ice but you might go well he's quite direct but he's never fully getting there I want you to notice how all the sentences break up I went over to her I uncovered her face with a pillow she had told me that she had stabbed the kids so though he does get to the end it shifts along like a block of ice it doesn't go directly and it doesn't flow so look I want you to think about it in this way is it legato if that word means anything to you which kind of means kind of Italian for kind of musical term for flowing or is it staccato which is another Italian musical term for being kind of jagged here's what we know about poker by the way by the way don't go and play poker unless you really understand mathematics and probability number one thing you got to understand mathematics and probability above and beyond that if you're looking for the tells of people there is one tell that has been proven to show that somebody is confident or unconfident about the hand that they may have in their hand and that is do they push in their chips do they push in their bet staccato or legato does it flow in like water or does it kind of jutter in so you got to look really carefully but there are some really good some really good scientific papers that suggest that is the thing the best there are lots of things you can look out for but that's going to be your best bet above and beyond understanding math and probability so is he staccato or is he legato because if he's staccato we would probably suggest he's not telling the truth and he's not confident about this and that's why you get sentences that don't quite follow through to the end Greg what do you got on this one yeah so chase I'm with you he does a variation from his last eye access and he's still in the visual area of the brain but either last time he was lying or this time he's lying we can't really tell absolutely 100% because we don't know what's going on in the house however when he says is the door opening it looks like an actual eye access for memory and then he disclaims and then he said by saying I don't recall ma'am he's overly polite is Alec and Tyler's door open that I don't recall ma'am I'm sorry that cluster of behaviors makes us think this is the lie side the other side is actually retrieving information so when you start to distance yourself we this is a great example of looking for clusters we can't help for sure but what we know is he's gone to two different places in his head for the same kind of information so good call why did you go to Zoys room cadence shifts immediately she said she dead and just goes off and slows down he I blocks he blows out air and he swivels now I blocking and blowing out air could be exasperation could be a very bad feeling something it could be real feelings but when we see that we also then expect clusters of good behavior some arching of that grief muscle in the forehead some concern in the brow some drawing of the sides of the mouth none of us there it just looks like clinical like he's I have a note here it's like he tells you he's driving a 2011 traverse that's with it cut in the right front seat that's what it looks like oh yeah my traverse I don't have any belief in him at all we had a baseline for what was really emotional earlier either that was real or this is real which is it come on you're really not very smart to do this I think the guy is smart he's a physical therapist he had to go through school he had to go through a whole lot of memorization and he's doing that here he's smart he just is making some stupid moves he thinks he's smarter than the whole system it doesn't matter that she's not getting information because he comes across as a jerk and remember the jury gets to vote and that's one of the things you have to be careful for he also does some turtling and he's got the best example of turtling ever seen because he's heavy and his neck kind of shrinks down in his body and then this this thick neck you can watch his pulse in the thick neck it's it's comical almost so watching and paying attention to it then he stumbles over those words about comfort and you can clearly see that those are not comforting words he gives a great baseline for BS because we can't miss it and then he does lip withdrawal and I didn't have a phone he has this thing all prepared like he thinks he knows where he's going and nothing works and then he starts to stammer and the phone falls apart if you really want to find it go watch his interrogation you'll hear where he's picking up all this stuff that's it that's what I got I'll go alright again he's just running down the path and just giving his rehearsed answers Mark what you're talking about about water now it's like I call that loping the difference in that when you're just talking you just kind of lop along through the field on a horse and everything's fine and it just flows right out and when it doesn't that's when you say something's not right here and you usually hear those are examples of someone is just repeating a story they've said inside and not outside or out to the world that they haven't told anybody any right Greg or who as I said there was no emotion when he describes the little angel nothing, nothing there at all if that was this little angel we would go back to seeing those same expressions we saw earlier with his eyebrows with his glabella at least pulled together he would have thought oh I'm supposed to be sat here I can try to look sad let me don't see anything in that part his vocal tone is strong his cadence is a bit fast but it sounds like during this he's discussing plans on landscaping the yard it sounds like he's talking to the yard guy here's what we're going to do I want to try to do this and we'll try and he tries to think about and then goes on just it's out of hand here there's no loping going on whatsoever now if he's thinking if he's come to the revelation that his children are dead and he's assuming that his wife did it what do you think he's going to do he's not going to stay there's no he doesn't talk about feeling threatened or in danger or if she hadn't told him you see two dead kids and they're like oh my lord you know what's going to happen am I in danger that would be your first thought you would be staying around looking doing stuff you'd be you'd have your back to wherever that had happened and waiting for something else to come at you at that point and then when he says the phone he was hollering out the window to see if anybody was there to help he should have said I was hollering at my neighbor and he might have even said their name for help you know but he didn't say that it's just odd this whole thing just turned in odd that's what a normal person would do if you once you have this horrifying revelation that your wife had murdered everyone but you you know going back to the part where he should be afraid for himself but he never even says that because it doesn't get into his brain because or his mind because he was never afraid of being killed since he was the one doing the killing and is Alec and Tyler's door open and I don't recall ma'am I'm sorry why did you go to Zoe's room because she says she she said the kids were dead and Zoe was my little angel that's the first one I went to so when you get into Zoe's room what do you see there's a pillow on our head there's a hand and there's covers on top of her she's laying on her mattress on the floor the mattress is on the floor she's laying on her mattress what do you do I went over to her I uncovered her her mouth uncovered her face with a pillow she had told me that she had stabbed the kids so of course I look for blood I look for anything look for any sign of life it was nothing I turned back to her you stabbed her she says I thought I did I didn't know it bounced off of her okay so after you discover Zoe what do you do I went to the bathroom and picked up a washcloth her mouth was open her eyes were open she looked uncomfortable it's my normal demeanor to help put my kids in rest don't ask me why I did it I was trying to close her eyes okay so where's Megan when you're doing this she was following me talking to me at one point she was standing in the doorway talking to me from the doorway to me because I was asking her I thought you stabbed the kids okay so you said you had charged your phone the night before did you have your phone I said I plugged in and attempted to charge little did I know that the charger was not a direct charger it had to have the engine on the battery never charged and I also found out that phone wasn't an active phone that was an active that was a phone that we use for things so no it was not charged and it was not a technical phone okay were there other phones in the house there were other possessions of phones in the house but Megan hid them it would not tell me where she hid them so it's your testimony that you could not have called anybody that's correct I didn't have a phone and it's what did you find in Tyler's room in Alec and Tyler's room Alec was on his back pillow over his head covers over him and it was blood how much blood enough that I noticed I can't really tell you because I pulled back the blankets the shirt had some blood on it and it was blood on the abdomen was there blood on the blankets and they didn't inspect it my goal was to see if they were alive and my goal was to see what the hell happened okay so after you see Alec do you go downstairs to Tyler no I actually do the same thing with the washcloth his eyes were open and his mouth was gently slack looked uncomfortable normal father thing is to relax their head and relax and I was just providing them comfort okay Greg what do you got yeah I'm going to be really short on this one now let's bring in a whole new piece of literature from history Dante's Inferno this guy deserves a knife plain of hell if he killed his kids this way because that's where betrayal belongs and that's the ultimate betrayal if you kill your children he has all the emotion of that whole routine of describing a car again no engagement in the jury I don't understand why he went earlier and now he's not going to what the hell happened well he knows what the hell happened it's clear to us and then he says a normal father does a relaxing the head thing and there's cadence shift in there that's awkward nothing natural about it and then he starts to mill his jaw as he's talking this look this guy came in here to iteratively story tell and she's enabled that to now we'll see this is going to fall apart here in a little bit but right now he she's playing his game he's playing her game whatever you want a lot of speech patterns that allow him to do this clipped quick pieces and get back to the next piece he's setting up the next sentence every time he says something Mark what do you have? yeah so I just want to point out that there's a transition for him into now justifying his behavior before he's been going well he actually said don't ask me why don't ask me why I think it was around the the towels on the head the flannels on the head I think it was around that don't ask me why don't ask me to justify this because he probably felt a little more confident around that time I think the pressure is building up for him he's feeling less confident and so he talks about the normal father thing so he tries to socialize this into a normality so that again we won't dig into the story because you know this is what every normal father would do I don't think that's true at all that every normal father would do that but just notice there that we can tell I think the pressure is coming on him because of this transition to now feeling like he has to justify Scott what do you got on this one I think a normal father would be angry I think he'd open up with anger that's I mean that's his intro would be anger for a normal father seeing the child looks uncomfortable what he should be worrying about is if that woman is going to stab him to death in a minute that's what he should be focused on but like I said before he's not then he talks about there being blood on the abdomen that's not the abdomen that's your child's stomach you're going there and seeing your child dead and you're talking about it like you're he's not getting the same respect you give the frog in high school and you dissected the frog he's not even talking about it like that it's just there's nothing there emotionally he's not he doesn't there's no empathy there's no sympathy there's no anger there's nothing there he's not even trying to fake any of it no residual grief from any of that if you're looking at your kid's stomach and your child is dead and you're seeing blood and you talk more about the situation of blood there was blood really you would say it's everywhere anytime you see a child's blood it's too much blood no matter how much it is it's way too much it doesn't even say anything like that nothing nothing so a normal father would not act this way and react this way at all not at all not even a little bit okay are you good? Chase we're batting got too much go on you know the first time I held a human brain I was in college and before anything happened there was a person on the table and they told us her name and while we were holding this thing we're feeling the cerebellum area which is kind of like fish gills but we say this is her brain this is her temporal lobe not the temporal lobe we're saying her this is a person I didn't know I didn't have a personal relationship with and I'm still connected and I'm still using that language and I'm still a person that doesn't do it with their kids it's a huge deal and Greg I think to your point about him not looking at the jury I'll just say there's two things that can make your brain focus on something whether you like it or not something that's valuable and something that's threatening that's it I think in the beginning when his attorney was doing the questioning the jury was a valuable thing and threats are always more powerful than value when it comes to competing for our focus then the prosecutor came in and the value kind of took over but I do think he's genuinely recalling all of this except that he's genuinely recalling bullet points that he made about all of this so the recall is genuine but the recall is not of the event the recall is of a story there's way more dissociative language like Scott you said the abdomen if you hear this ever in your life when somebody's talking about their family or their kids this should be the biggest red flag you have ever seen in your entire life and it means you need to be really ready really careful before you form a relationship with someone that does this and the washcloth provided the kid comfort he did use the washcloth I think he's legitimizing this behavior when he's saying the normal father thing this is a very cheap like nine year old level attempt to convince the jury that this is what fathers do use the washcloth to cover the faces for guilt and what did you find in Tyler's room in Alec and Tyler's room Alec was on his back pillow over his head covers over him and it was blood how much blood enough that I noticed I can't really tell you because I pulled back the blankets there had some blood on it and there was blood on the abdomen was there blood on the blankets they didn't inspect it my goal was to see if they were alive and my goal was to see what the hell happened so after you see Alec do you go downstairs to Tyler no I actually do the same thing with the washcloth his eyes were open and his mouth was gently slack looked uncomfortable normal father thing is to relax their head and relax and I was just providing them comfort okay you can see that view from the bathroom is Megan within your view no she's standing by her end when I left her she's standing by the end table on her side of the bed and how long are you in the bathroom don't know a few minutes what happens when you come out of the bathroom as I'm walking out of the bathroom the sound that is similar to a balloon you know like you rub a balloon like a at which point I poked my head out as we were coming out and I see her laying on her back stabbing herself where at is she in the bed she's laying on her back on her side of the bed with her head on the pillow laying on her back on top of sheets with the knife in her abdomen what color was the knife that was there was a green knife that I bought for the kids as a Christmas present as part of their fishing wars so she has a green knife is she right handed or left handed green handled knife is she right handed or left handed and which hand was on the knife both hands are on the knife and you said that the knife was in her abdomen when you came out of the bathroom yes what did you do I stood there in shock and I said what the hell are you doing and at that point she said I'm doing what I did to the boys I'm trying to get my inferior vena cava she said I'm doing what I did to the boys trying to get my inferior vena cava did you go for help I went over to my wife and pleaded for her to tell me where the phones were she asked me not to leave her she did not leave the boys the question is did you go for help yes or no I'll go first on this one when he talks about coming out of the bathroom he says as we were coming out of the bathroom he's the only guy there what's this guy thinking about is he thinking I don't believe he's got multiple personalities or anything like that but what's he thinking we came out of the bathroom and the attorney should have caught that and said what are you talking about but on the other hand what is she going to say I'm sorry I just meant me you can't dig in psychology from that point but from that point of view we see him adapting by swaying back and forth from that chair and his details are just finely tuned he's got it all down the green knife and cracks around that all those things are real stickler for these details that you don't need nobody needs to know any of that stuff they're too intricate for real storytelling that's what inhibits the loping that's why we're not hearing much of that the details are so intricate for example that's a good one when a director directs a movie and there's a situation and the actor says well I've got to go over to So-and-So's house or go over there miles away I'll drive the director doesn't have them I'm walking out the door I'm walking out to the car opening the car door, getting in starting the car, putting on their seat belt adjusting and then driving off and then showing up, getting out of that whole scene they just show them showing up over there or they show them leaving in the car or driving up and that's it these details mean nothing in this story every time he gives one it says flag, flag, flag, flag, flag because it's so odd and so out of character in this story I'm going to go back to what I said earlier this is a fantastic study for the beginner who's just getting into body language and trying to study deception what to look for that's all we're really seeing here are just cues of deception pretty much we're going to see them go into fight or flight in a while but this is just great for you to look at and study a lot going on here Greg what do you got? a two-part story okay Scott come in I see Scott there with a knife stabbing himself and cutting his inferior Vana Calvin I go hey Scott where's your phone does anybody believe that does anybody believe that's what's happening does anyone really believe that a guy's going to walk up and the way he's going to try to stop his wife from slicing a major artery is to talk to her about her phone that's not how life works aside from the fact she has a knife in her hand he walks in she's got her gut just working around cutting a major artery okay we believe that for a minute he's calm but this is three years later he's told this story and he's doing that romance here I'm not kidding you like he's got his eyes locked because he's trying to see what she believes and what she doesn't and that smart asery thing he does with little short clips to his questions and answers just keeps coming up I don't know I don't recall this is the only place when he's talking about where were you and was the door open that stuff the signaling is actually congruent to care whether she knows something or not he edits and adjusts and he says she is standing but that's very much a New England northeastern kind of thing I had a good friend who would say I'm working in the city for 35 years so that's just a speech pattern thing you don't read too much into that there is some disgust when he talks about hearing something that sounded like a balloon makes me think that's probably what it sounded like when he did something and that went through his head because you see his nose wrinkle in disgust and his face we always say moved to the center really good way to put it he goes into a lot of detail about the sheets and where she was lying and all that that must have some pertinence in the way he's going to explain the way blood patterns or something don't know but then he gets meticulous with that green handle knife and you see him go back and attack that he should stay this way through the rest of the story and we're going to see that fall apart because we always say the pattern that you use should be the pattern you use for the rest of the time I'll hop over that last one and then say this is just an iterative story and where is that emotion he was displaying for the jury when he's talking about his wife disemboweling herself in front of him this is just broken and you can't miss all of that when he says when he answers no watch his lips and his chin withdraw this guy's not believable Scott you're right everything that we teach the most simple things are here but they're in grand scale because he thinks he's outthought them and every person when they get on the stand every person when they face an interrogator has their story made up this guy's put a lot of time into his that three years he's having to recant something he said before chase what you got yeah the one thing he's got in common with amber herd he thinks he's got them fools and that's he has confidence and stress at the same time which makes these behaviors more exaggerated but there's more details here about trivial BS than any of the deaths of the kids or discovering that they were dead in the first place in very very rare cases throughout my entire career I will say something is definitively deceptive this is one of them if you hear a story where minute stupid details are just vividly injected and then the critical moments are just carelessly walked through like someone reading a clothing laundry label that's deception that is deception you don't need many clusters but here's the clusters we're seeing we're seeing a detail spike well let's call it a detail mountain we're seeing a detail mountain with irrelevant BS and we're seeing a detail valley when it comes to critical and we see another detail mountain when it comes to irrelevant BS that's deception and notice there's no emotion no prying of screaming no care no worry no love no anger no sound that he's describing no feeling he's a physical therapist his wife is a school teacher inferior vena cava is not something that she would say in my opinion I don't think and I love how she's just stabbing herself and casually saying this and just very medically and clinically describing the exact name of the vein as she's stabbing herself in the stomach it's just a casual conversation between medically educated people that the jury probably wouldn't understand and I think that's exactly what's going on in his head the jury's not going to get this this is a really highly educated word it's going to make the jury automatically believe me I think that's what he's thinking it's all yeah mark yeah yeah so let's look at some nonverbals that are going around those spikes of detail because I agree with you on that we get the first time we've seen a moderator or regulator gesture out of him like this which is a stop a halt and suppress so he comes in and a kind of 45 degree angle green handled knife so he wants he wants the whole of this situation to just halt for a moment while he gives this piece of detail we can't quite work out why this might be so important maybe it is pertinent to evidence maybe not I don't know I think he just it's a moment for him to go I'll control this for a moment because he's having a lot of control and my guess is his control is has some relative importance to him especially as you've been saying chase the suppression of something so we get that nice it's not fully suppressive yeah but it halts the proceedings and just pats down on that idea of the green handled knife then we get a beautiful example of the aloof eye block which is when and chase bought this to our attention many times ago around what was it the neighbor who's just got a solar panel that's good for the environment exactly okay so so that I'm going to call the aloof eye block it says what it says is I'm so much more bigger and important and more intelligent than you that I can't even look at you I can't even look at you and you maybe shouldn't even be able to see me and so because I'm you know high on the pedestal and therefore because I can't close your eyes I'll close my own so it feels like you can't see me and I can't and I wouldn't ever dane to look at you and we get that on the idea when the stenographer I think says can you repeat that and he repeats inferior vena cava as if to say come on you idiot everybody knows the inferior vena cava everybody knows that and that beautiful aloof eye block great example of that again controlling the situation great moment where he's controlling some of the elements the instruments of the court probably feeling pretty good for him you can see that view from the bathroom is Megan within your view no she's standing by her end when I left her she's standing by the end table on her side of the bed okay and how long are you in the bathroom don't know a few minutes what happens when you come out of the bathroom as I'm walking out of the bathroom I hear a sound that is similar to a balloon you know like you rub a balloon they got at which point I poke my head out as we're coming out and I see her laying on her back stabbing herself where at is she in the bed she's laying on her back on her side of the bed with her head on the pillow laying on her back on top of sheets with a knife in her abdomen what color was the knife the knife was the only knife that was there was a green knife that I bought for the kids as a Christmas present as part of their fishing wars okay so she has a green knife it's correct is she right handed or left handed green handled knife is she right handed or left handed she's right handed both hands are on the knife both hands are on the knife and you said that the knife was in her abdomen yes when you came out of the bathroom what did you do I stood there in shock I said what the hell are you doing at that point she said I'm doing what I did to the boys I'm trying to get my inferior vena cava she said I'm doing what I did to the boys trying to get my inferior inferior vena cava did you go for help I went over to my wife and pleaded for her to tell me where the phones were she asked me not to leave her she did not leave the boys so my question is did you go for help yes or no the answer is no after Megan dies how long what do you do we skipped over quite a bit there I don't know if you want to go through everything or not but she died what did I do I yelled out the window to see if anybody was around to help there was some weird sound coming from her mouth I thought she was breathing I started CPR after I wiped her mouth off with that gray pillow okay so you she stabs herself once or twice like I said before she stabbed herself a few months at times or twice okay and these are right after each other that is no okay so what happens she stabbed herself the first time I sat there pleading with her to allow me to find the phones to allow me to leave her to go get help my loyalty is to my wife she did not want to be alone I thought if I stood there she said she was going through the inferior vena cava I have medical experience to know that one of those major arteries will bleed out quickly in the area of the house we liked the house because there was no one around neighbors weren't there most of the neighbors around us were snowbirds if I left her I thought she was going to die I thought in my decision making the best chance was for her to tell me where the phones were at one point I hate to say I annoyed her I was trying to convince her trying to talk to her in a language obviously the universe doesn't want you to go she says I want to be with my kids I need to be with my kids so I leave what do you do Mark what do you got so I think he's uncomfortable here with the idea of megan dies it's too hard he's been softening this idea and so he shifts to the other side of his chair great transition there over to the other side of the chair now I think he then tries again to control the situation he's got now a chop gesture down what I call the wheel plane coming down his center line with this chop very controlling with you skipped over quite a bit so again tries to control the narrative control the calendar the timeline that's going on fails at that completely and then has to buy time with what did I do so I think we're constantly seeing this person trying to control with their body failing then control with trying to control the interview or the questioning and fail really on his back foot here Chase what do you got on this one yeah so I fully agree right when he says I don't know if you want me to go through everything or not there's a chin thrust which is we do as a challenge as primates we present arteries to other primates to say I'm not I'm not threatened or scared by you and he's basically saying you know what I've got all these details memorized you want to test me on that that's exactly what's happening here I think there's question repetition when he says what did I do he's repeating the question exactly and this guy is medically educated and this is not a behavior thing so I'm deviating a little bit from my baseline this guy's medically educated and he should know what weird sound is coming from her mouth this is called agonal respirations and it does not come from the brain it's the spinal cord trying to keep the body alive and when he says I thought she was breathing I started CPR if you think someone's breathing and then start CPR you're an idiot the details are about forensics defense and not the story at all every single detail that's given here is about defending a forensic finding so he says I have medical experience to know a major artery we'll bleed out quickly that's hilarious I mean a person trained by the American Red Cross has more medical experience than this he's saying no one was around he's saying no one was around our entire property in the area of the house we liked the house parental because there was no one around neighbors weren't there most of the neighbors around us were snowbirds is that why you yelled out the window for help? I yelled out the window to see if anybody was around to help I'm curious about that now I love how he's having this weighted, deep, carefully thought out discussion very calm, calculated discussion about wife in general with his wife, Megan while she has a knife buried in her gut and it seems like that's not a big deal, let's get a knife in here we can have a casual conversation I've never said this on the behavior panel before this is the biggest douchebag I've ever seen and I applaud the composure of the prosecuting attorney here Greg what do you got? well the level of arrogance that this guy comes up with through this entire thing but I'll point out the body language of arrogance as we get closer to the end of this I have written right on my notes this is a skit this is a skit, who talks to somebody Megan how's it feel while you're in there digging around you get the right artery is about what this sounds like number one he stops her and says hold on let me tell my story in effect do you want to hear what happened in between that tells you this is incremental storytelling he's setting it up so he has a way to get things out my quick question is number one why did you wipe her mouth but number two why with a pillow I think something is up with that pillow that would break his story apart and so he's trying to say I wiped her mouth with the pillow that's an added detail that we don't need and she misses asking that question that's a lead then he does something that we always say is a great indicator this is lying 101 like I said before redirect back to something I said before then he says in a detailed cumulative of two this is all her stuff no she stabbed herself twice and I was panicked and I tried to do this but instead what does he do he says well I was talking to her I was afraid she would die if I left well she's certainly going to die if you don't leave this whole logic thing from a medical point of view from a guy who knows but he's a physical therapist and that are under the skin, under the muscle he knows where muscles are put together this guy probably has to have a doctorate to practice in today's world so this guy knows more than he's letting on and then just why the basic question why didn't you stop her from stabbing herself the basic question instead of running for help okay she's already stabbed once and she's still looking for an artery stop go over there take the knife out of her hand it sure reminds me of being in the army Navy probably does it too the first thing you do is you go Annie, Annie or you all right help they have a little anatomical Annie dummy that you check for pulse you check for breathing before you start and chase you hit it dead on I'm giving somebody CPR who's breathing I'm not yelling for help I might stick my head out this is all messed up then when he gets to this point where he says in my decision making he gets that swivel rate thing I just have to think how does anybody else does anybody else wonder what kind of conversation you have with a person who's got a knife in their gut stabbing around you're clearly stronger than she is she's lying on the floor you could take the knife from her there's real arrogance at the objection when the guy says objection his attorney chin thrust throat is open that's defiance we all say that to you all the time looks down his nose and there's slight amusement as the corner of his mouth rise this guy he thinks he's brilliant if he only knew what we see he might have a different opinion Scott what do you got I agree and at the top of that he tries once again to take control of the conversation he's got more of his story that he didn't get to tell that he needs to add in there so it lines up with exactly what happened because if you listen to what he says you can go straight from when he first gets there all the way up to where she's stabbing herself and everything fits right in from what he's looking at you can go through and look at all those things as you went so he didn't get to say those parts so that's why he's adding that stuff in and when he says I looked out the window to see if anybody could help like again I said this earlier he would have hollered he would have just if that was going to happen he wouldn't have done that anyway he would have run out of the house because he would be number one he wouldn't be there because he'd be afraid she's going to kill him number two if she's lying there trying to stab herself trying to hurry car yourself or harry carry have you say correctly that hurts man that hurts when I'm running through the house to catch the dog you know to catch Chattie or something I hit my knee everything shuts down man right then it's done we're done until I get finished going like a family guy I'm done man so if somebody's trying to stab themselves and another thing when you see a suicide somebody's committed suicide and the person with them says to stab themselves well then what's happened is that person who's supposedly almost been stabbed has killed that person this is the road they go down because they'll have these little things where they try to stab themselves and these little mark cut you got to try it again and keep going because it hurts and nobody's going to have any conversation the only word that that one would be saying is it's all you would hear and the neighbors would have heard it too because that hurts when you do that so gosh I'm getting all worked up in this anyway he should be all worn out talking about that as well and where he is in this on the stand and the attorney she's really not good at asking questions she's really not good at getting the information she needs out I know we're coming off that Johnny Depp Amber heard where we saw a pro that everybody fell in love with but this is not good she sees all like you're saying Greg all these openings where you can climb in and go hang on a minute man what you just say what are you talking about why didn't she say so she's talking to you while she's stabbing herself is that what do you hear this? even if it's not productive or it's objective to the jury heard it you've jabbed it into the jury's mind look anybody sitting in any sane person are you really telling me you're having a conversation about slicing her abdominal aorta mommy python yeah exactly like that so I'm done you guys good? here we go alright after Megan dies how long what do you do? we skipped over quite a bit there I don't know if you want to go through everything or not what did you do after Megan died what did I do? I yelled out the window to see if anybody was around to help there was some weird sound coming from her mouth I thought she was breathing I started CPR after I wiped her mouth off with that gray pillow okay so you she stabs herself once or twice like I said before she stabs herself with cumulative times of twice and these are right after each other? that is no okay so what happens? she stabs herself the first time I sat there pleading with her to allow me to find the phones to allow me to leave her to go get help my loyalty is to my wife she did not want to be alone I thought if I stood there she would say she was going through the inferior vienna cava I have medical experience to know that one of those major arteries will bleed out quickly in the area of the house we liked the house parental because there was no one around neighbors weren't there most of the neighbors around us were snowbirds if I left her I thought she was going to die I thought in my decision making the best chance was for her to tell me where the phones were at one point I hate to say I annoyed her I was trying to convince her trying to talk to her in a language saying obviously the universe doesn't want you to go she says I want to be with my kids I need to be with my kids so I leave what do you do? to go to Sarasota? no there was no way I could drive to Sarasota did you leave your phone or to starbucks in Sarasota? if I didn't go to Sarasota I didn't leave my phone so you're denying that you went to starbucks? in Sarasota? in Sarasota that's correct so you never went to the beach in Sarasota? nope it was over two hours away there was no way I could drive and you did see the interview that was played yesterday right? correct I did see the interview and you did speak with the detective more than one time right? that's what they tell me you're denying this knowledge? ma'am I don't remember talking to the interview that day so you don't remember talking to the detective on January 15th of 2020? last thing I remember was falling down the Saras and saying you hold onto somebody in custody deputy next thing I knew I woke up in jail and I thought I was in purgatory with the red floor and the bright sky okay all right Greg what do you got? yeah so in the beginning when she starts questioning him he's touching his face well we assume that's an adapter a way to comfort self and so people release nervous energies in a way of comforting self he swivels at the question of leaving his phone in Sarasota and he has some again smart remark if I had never been in Sarasota I couldn't have left my phone there this is allowing the guy to condition the question because technically if I'm in the outskirts of a town if I'm in a non branded let's say I'm in the Starbucks and it's in a suburb that is not called Sarasota it's not Sarasota it's the kind of guy who would parse those facts so in this case he goes out and he says exactly I've never been to a to a Starbucks in Sarasota she should say when was the last time you were in Starbucks period and then play from there but she doesn't she does a bad leading questions by saying you didn't go to the Starbucks in Sarasota okay well there you go then he does this piercing stare with Roe Mancer we always say he does the Aaron Kathy blink rate his eyes are cemented open I don't know how he's holding them open that well look at his hands he's a nail biter so he's got nervous energy you know I always look for fingernails when people chew their nails away it's an indicator that their nervous energy has to go somewhere so you pay attention to that she's feeding him with leading and poor questions and he's getting away with it and his iterative storytelling is getting good because she is not good with questions that will fall apart when she starts to lock him down with a transcript and ask did you say this did you say that did you so it's going to work for in the long term but it isn't working well here Scott what do you got alright so this is so far this is the most uncomfortable we've seen him and these are the biggest indicators that let us know he's been comfortable when he starts putting his hand on his face that's one thing he's adapting at that point then it becomes what's called Joan of Oro refers to as facial dinting when he does that whole thing when he starts pushing his face and everything starts smushing in and you can feel that when it happens I mean go ahead and push on your face and get that feeling you'll see what I'm talking about because when you let go it kind of relaxes those muscles in there but sometimes something so intense you need to be pushing because you're feeling that finger stretch or your finger stretch you feel all those things and not just doesn't help take your mind off of it but it kind of relaxes you as you're stretching muscles and pushing and it gives you something almost something to do to remove yourself from what's happening at that at that point so the deeper the dent the more stressor is especially in this case and it gives answers like you're saying Greg like he's solving a logic problem for a fourth grader I didn't have a phone so I couldn't say no kidding there's no need to do that but I think what he's doing with these is he's buying time to think at this point he makes sure he gets all his details in but he pushes back it doesn't take much time to get something going in there so if you're trying to work something out really quickly with your story make sure you're going forward and I think he's doing that because he's looking for time to think you're trying to create time to think we see that like you're saying he's got that little swing going back in his chair going back and forth his chair he's locked down and he's turtling he's got all that going on his blink rate isn't very much because he's locked on making sure he doesn't miss anything his brain goes we better watch watch her and find out what she's saying and pay attention so we don't miss something at this point he answers really quickly the short sharp sharp shots of answers and he looks locked down he really looks like locked down if this watching this if this makes you feel weird and because you think it sounds weird and you think it looks weird it is weird it is weird this is this is this is totally out of character for normal human behavior that's why we're saying earlier this is a great example of for lessons to watch when someone's being deceptive and remember if it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck it probably killed its family Mark what do you got so I agree with you not about the duck thing I mean it could it might not be a duck who knows you know but I certainly agree with you on on that self stimulation piece where he's kind of pushing in hard enough that he may be causing enough pain you know in order to control that so if the outside environment is painful to a human being they often can they can control that by causing their own pain in some way that's probably happening at the moment but even if it's not that is a full face block that he's got now and I think sometimes you'll see him talk as well and you'll see the little finger just poke up in front of the lips as well to block those just slightly as well and that is such a difference from where we've seen him before okay so I think it's there's such a cluster there of he's in trouble right now just one other interesting kind of cultural thing I want to note there is he has a really good understanding of fuller idea of the geography of the mythology of death in Christianity so the idea of purgatory and Greg you brought up the first the third circle of hell as well so it's quite interesting we've got somebody here who wants to mention that that finer point of the geography of the mythology in the Christian passing from life into an eternal life and the purgatory is a stop off most people don't really know that most people go you know you die and you go to heaven don't you know there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happens in between which you know it's kind of interesting he understands that detailed story and my guess would be is that has something to do with why this has gone on I mean why else would he mention that kind of detail in this particular situation Chase what do you got on this one I agree with you guys and you all covered most of it I've got one left his failing memory because of all this police trauma that he endured so we don't know he's claiming to have memory lost for all of this time period after you know the cops came and got him all this family failing memory just disappears the moment that he's able to relay how someone else could have done it except for him that's extremely convenient huge red flag I think this is due to the fact that he fully confessed to committing all of these crimes and the only pathway to getting possession off the record was the classic three part three part dance the drugs in my system memory loss and I couldn't make legal or logical decisions for myself at that point in time to go to Sarasota no there was no way I could drive Sarasota did you leave your phone into Starbucks in Sarasota if I didn't go to Sarasota I didn't leave my phone so you're denying that you went to Sarasota? In Sarasota that's correct and so you never went to the beach in Sarasota? Nope it was over two hours away there was no way I could drive and you did see the interview that was played yesterday right? Correct I did see the interview and you did speak with the detective more than one time right? they tell me you're denying this knowledge? Ma'am I don't remember talking to the interview that day so you don't remember talking to the detective on January 15th of 2020? Last thing I remember was falling down the stairs and saying you hold onto somebody in custody deputy next thing I knew I woke up in jail and I thought I was in purgatory with a red floor and a bright sky. Okay and is it true that the multiple times that you spoke to detectives that you told detectives that you went to Zoe's room you gathered the courage and you rolled over on top of your daughter until she suffocated is that what you told law enforcement? Is this a yes or no question? Yes or no question? That is what the video is and your testimony here today is that Megan did it Megan killed Zoe and you told the detectives multiple times that after Zoe you went to Alec's room and Alec was your oldest son correct? That's correct. And Alec was 13 years old and he was the strongest right? That is incorrect ma'am. Who is the strongest? Tyler is downstairs. So you go to Alec's room next because Alec's upstairs. That's correct. And you told law enforcement on multiple occasions that you went into Alec's room and you stabbed Alec and you suffocated Alec. Isn't that correct? That's partially correct. And isn't it true that you initially told law enforcement multiple times that Megan was in there during that killing? That's what the video showed, yes. And isn't it true that you also told law enforcement that Megan took part in the killing? That's what the video showed, that's correct. And that in fact Megan held Alec's legs down while you suffocated Alec? That's what the video showed, that's correct. And your testimony today is that that is not true? My testimony today is the fact that Megan killed her kids and killed herself. Okay. Alright, I'll go first on this one. We can see another huge adapter and that's where he's pushing his finger to his neck. That's where he's pushing his finger the last time except it's getting worse because there's a different feeling when you're pushing there than when you're pushing on your neck and you've got that little lymph node you're going by and you're stretching your finger, that's helping him a lot too. But pushing it in there and staying, that's weird because you fill it up in your mouth at that point, he almost looks like he's going up into a sinus area with it. But it's still, that's an adapter that helps him get rid of that built up stress or tension. So the stress is building. This questioning that the attorney's doing isn't really good. She's getting what she needs out of him or what she wants out of him. The shoulder shrugs really aren't... I wouldn't count those as shoulder shrugs as far as deception goes. He just can't get comfortable. That's why he feels really quick things. He's trying to move around. It's almost like a tick at that point. And he's trying to keep himself calm while this is happening. I think that's what that's about. Alright, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is actually one of my favorites because he feels he has upper hand in the beginning. You can see he's doing that kind of chin up and he's judgmental. But she's starting to make a mess of his iterative storytelling now because she's asking yes or no. And that yes or no has been effective for him to get some things out in the past. But now she's going to shift to talking about the transcript. And when I'm making you stick to a transcript now you're admitting to something or fighting it and saying, no, I didn't do it. That starts to make your story come apart. Now, whether that was our plan or not, no idea. That was our objective. And if you don't believe that's true, listen to when he says, is this a yes or no question? Is this a yes or no question? That is what the video, yes, shows you. That's what he's looking for is how do I get to deliver my story if you do that? And then he says, is it a question or do you want me to do this? That storytelling starts to come apart. She could shift gears right here and start to push on him, but she doesn't. I'm just going to skip a couple of things. But every opportunity this guy gets to release info he does. There's one interesting little fleeting piece of body language to go and watch very carefully. After he says that's correct about going to his son's room because it's upstairs, you see a really quick you could call it a micro expression fleeting terror go across his head right here. Something is up in his story that he needs to stay away from and I don't know what it is and I would have gone, hold on. I would go and figure out what's going on there. Even though even part of that is going to be partially correct, but he starts to mouth groom a little bit and do something a little odd and we can't tell why but we're seeing signs of fight or flight. My guess is it's to that fleeting terror that he had and then she locks him down further in this transcript and he says my testimony today is the fact that that's all filler. That's all Megan killed her kids, her kids and then herself. He eye blocks he mouth grooms and he swivels. That right there is plenty, guys. If we haven't seen enough, that sentence that distancing that much that distancing from your kids and that swiveling and showing fight or flight somebody needs to be crawling all over this guy. Mark what do you got? Yeah, so I think he's trying to cope here with the significant reversal of the story that's now that he's now gone for I think he looks down in order to, he's thinking of self soothing with some kind of bottle of water I imagine which would make a great I mean it's a great thing to bring in as a block. Great thing to do to protect yourself. For some reason he decides not to I don't know why he decides not to but if I think he makes it, you know, maybe there's no bottle there maybe it's got no water in it and he goes I'm gonna look like an idiot because there's nothing to drink maybe he just decides against it because maybe he goes no I'll just look like himself soothing that won't look good but then because he can't use that he has to readjust and that's what I think the shoulder stuff is there he's now got to do something to readjust to the fact that he's that the story is going a different way now he wanted to go for the water but he's decided not to and now he's got to do something in order to make it look like you should be doing that kind of thing. It's a complete mess for him right now as it should be. Chase what do you got on this one? I think our first five episodes that we ever filmed I was drinking out of a cup and I realized it was empty and then I pretended to drink out of it because I wanted to commit. I don't quit I commit to things. So what I think he was doing here is a medical technique for people who are suffering from certain kinds of emergencies you can rub up and down right here it's called a carotid massage that's the actual name of it go look it up really cool but it's proven to lower blood pressure calm people down you can actually do that just by poking in here and kind of rubbing it around I think that's what he's doing he's a physical therapist he's on the stand he's freaking out I think that he's defaulting to this technique and I think he's doing out of all this crap that he's doing he's doing this one because I think he feels more self-assured because there's this deniant defiant like this self-amused behavior at his little defense strategy which actually reminds me of Amber Heard Amber Heard is not doubling down because it's true she's doubling down because it's based on her belief in her ability and how unintelligent that person thinks the everyone else is and I think this little worm believes the same and when he says Megan killed her kids that's a big deal we can call it a slip you can call it a mistake if you want to it's a big deal to probably all four of us and then herself and right when he says herself I want you to watch his lower jaw and we do this during conceal the anger especially if we're hiding anger but I think this one is a concealed tongue jut and I think he's just preventing himself from parting his lips and I think that's what we're seeing here it wasn't high def enough for me to see it that's all I got for this one and is it true that the multiple times that you spoke to detectives that you told detectives that you went into Zoe's room you've gathered the courage and you rolled over on top of your daughter until she suffocated is that what you told law enforcement is this a yes or no question that is what the video yes showed you and your testimony here today is that Megan did it Megan killed Zoe and you told the detectives multiple times that after Zoe you went to Alec's room and Alec was your oldest son correct? that's correct and Alec was 13 years old and he was the strongest right? that is incorrect ma'am who is the strongest? Tyler is downstairs so you go to Alec's room next because Alec's upstairs that's correct and you told law enforcement that you took Alec's room and you stabbed Alec and you suffocated Alec isn't that correct? that's partially correct and isn't it true that you initially told law enforcement multiple times that Megan was in there during that killing? that's what the video showed yes and isn't it true that you also told law enforcement that's what the video showed that's correct and that in fact Megan held Alec's legs down why you suffocated Alec that's what the video showed that's correct and your testimony today is that that is not true my testimony today is the fact that Megan killed her kids and killed herself let's go around the room and talk about what we think we saw during this in 30 seconds or less Mark you want to go first? yeah you know look at that fire there I think that's pretty obvious to people but look back at some of the classics of body language I especially like to see in that that halt and suppress gesture there and it tells me something about his general demeanour which I think you know we've been right all along there is something about him suppressing what's going on that emotion inside him and you know chances are it's turned out very very badly for his family which is massively unfortunate Chase what do you think? I'll re-wrap exactly as I did I think this person is having a long standing issue with control versus being controlling dominant versus domineering self-control versus self-restraint you can see it in the hand gesture Mark just talked about I think that if the hand is like this the further down the hand is the more respect or reverence that person is showing the further up it is the less respect or reverence because you see somebody with social anxiety their hand will just stretch out flat on the table while their hand is down there while they are objecting to something but again he is the exact individual that cannot really fully comprehend the difference between experiencing pleasure and feeling happiness he equates the two with the same that he moved into Greg what do you got? If I were picking a video to show you some rudimentary body language and deception things that we associate with deception through clusters this would be it this guy comes in with iterative storytelling he doesn't have a lot of fight or flight he is pretty contained in the beginning because he is certain of his ability now whether his ability is good or not is another story he rambles at times he conditions questions he takes holy high ground we call it he stammers and stutters his cadence changes at hard facts he has conversations with people in the middle of the most emotional things on earth without any emotion and when he is trying to convince the jury of how horrible this was he almost melts down as long as he is on direct and there is no threat this to me is a beacon of deception we know he lies because he said he had three different stories so one of those is a lie I am guessing this is it I vote Scott what do you got I agree I think like I said earlier this is a great study for the person just getting into body language and deception if you want to know what the basics are you just solve so go back over this couple of times because the things we are pointing out are just the first things when you go in someone like one of us goes ok here is what you are looking forward to here is the section on deception let's start here we have just gone straight down the line doing that 101 for the basics of deception and body language think this is a good one we will see you next time see you I want you to now lean way harder into you guys than you just did on me right now I would go another two minutes on that wow that is too bad ok sorry give another shot here we go