 Okay, good morning everyone. Thank you for coming here this morning My name is Jason Bordoff. I'm a professor at Columbia University School of International and Public Affairs Where I direct the Center on Global Energy Policy 2023 may well be the year of climate action With historic policy initiatives like the Inflation Reduction Act in our country Record amounts of capital being deployed into clean energy huge technological breakthroughs like fusion and Rising social mobilization because of the urgency of the crisis Melissa and I hear reason for optimism like this every day in New York City Where we help to run the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia Optimism about the pace of cost declines technological advancement the growth of clean energy and And if you spend your time with investors and entrepreneurs just think of the conversations we've had the last few days Here with the weft You can't help but feel hope That we're finally beginning to make progress on the climate crisis that we are finally finally building the resolve needed To decarbonize in the time frame that we need to toward net zero But here's the problem Two things can both be true at the same time Clean energy can exceed our wildest hopes and expectations costs can come down faster than we thought growth can happen faster than we thought and Emissions keep going up oil gas even coal use keep going up and That's where we are today That's what happens when populations grow and societies industrialize become more prosperous It's also the reality of how long energy transitions take and always have throughout time That's the daunting reality of How hard it is to make progress within the time frames that we need to it's the reality of How hard the speed and scale necessary for this clean energy transition is But given that the consequences of failure are so high The existential question for our time today is how do we reconcile this enormous progress we're making in clean energy? With the reality of what's really required to achieve our net zero goals So we're not here to tell you what you probably already know Which is that the energy system which is the backbone of our economy is in the early stages of a massive transformation? I say the early stages really intentionally Because what we're here to talk about today is what is needed to achieve net zero What are we talking about when we talk about scale speed scope? And what are the bumps that we expect to hit along the way, and how do we navigate them successfully? So I want to start by talking about the progress that we have seen today So what we have seen in terms of the scaling of clean energy going from first of kind to millions and Honestly when I talk through this progress It's hard not to pause Because when I think back to when I started my career 20 years ago this progress the things we have already achieved They seemed impossible So first I want to talk about how we scaled renewables and how we've grown clean power when you look at the amount of renewables that we installed between 2001 and 2021 it was about 2400 gigawatts. That's roughly the size of China's entire grid And when we look at what we expect to see in the future We expect to actually develop that same number of gigawatts in five years 20 years for the first five for the next that's tremendous at the same time We have seen explosion when it comes to electric vehicles we have seen more than 25 million electric vehicles hit the roads and We expect the growth of annual sales of electric vehicles to increase 35% this coming year These are huge numbers and they're thanks to what you see behind me They're thanks to really quick cost declines across a lot of different technologies So when you look at the cost of solar we've seen from 2010 to 2020 one decade an 80% decline in the cost of a new solar power plant at the same time over that same decade We saw a 75% decrease in the cost of a lithium-ion battery pack This is tremendous progress. This is absolutely huge And it gives us a lot of hope for what we're going to see in the future But it is not nearly enough This is a lot of progress, but it is not the scope and scale that we need So while we're doing a lot We're not nearly doing enough Which is why we see headlines like this We're hitting milestone after milestone and deploying clean energy And yet it still seems like we're barely making a dent in greenhouse gas emissions Now to be clear the projected growth in emissions the projected growth in temperature rise is lower today than it was a decade ago So progress is possible But we're still very far from decarbonizing the energy system at the speed and scale that we need to And we're already seeing the consequences With record heat leading to melting ice sheets sea level rise food insecurity biodiversity and ecosystem loss More severe droughts flooding heat waves the consequences for humanity of failing to achieve targets Like 1.5 degrees Celsius of warming above pre-industrial times can be quite dire And at our current rate of emissions we reach that threshold in less than a decade Now remember the North Star we're working toward is the cumulative amount of emissions the stock that has accumulated over time That's what drives the impacts of climate change 2022 was a record year for annual emissions So not only is the stock of a cumulative amount that has accumulated over time going up The amount we are contributing to it each and every year is still going up All of this underscores a hard truth that for all the growth and EVs and renewables and other forms of clean energy That Melissa was talking about We need to move so much faster Especially for things like steel and cement and aviation and shipping things that are harder to electrify and harder to decarbonize The good news here is that we have the technologies that we need to get on the road and move quickly to net zero We know how to get there. We know how to make this change This is something again. I couldn't say 20 years ago. We've made a ton of progress So when we look at all the research all the analysis all the pathways in that zero what we see is that to transform an economy You do three broad things First you electrify everything that makes sense to electrify that is a lot of our economy It's the heat in our homes and some vehicles we drive a lot of our industrial processes And in that process we become as efficient as we possibly can The second pillar is about cleaning up our supplies of energy So we often focus on changing that coal-fired power plant or natural gas power plant to wind or solar Geothermal nuclear all the different technologies we could think of including maybe fossil fuels with carbon capture But it means more than that it means creating the fuels we need for things that don't make sense to electrify for a whole variety of reasons This is about creating the fuels we need for aviation. This is about creating things like hydrogen for industrial processes It's cleaning up our supplies all of our electricity and all the fuels we need while also stopping the waste of greenhouse gases today I'm talking about methane Stopping throwing away free emissions into the air. They're not free The third pillar is about dealing with the emissions that we just can't get out of our system So we've electrified it. We've cleaned up all of our energy supplies. There's still stuff left This is why we talk about something called carbon management about capturing emissions and storing them underground or turning Them into products and storing them there. We also talk about nature-based solutions. So reforestation is just one example and amongst all of this We are ensuring that every single person everywhere in the world has access to affordable reliable and clean energy If I had to sum it up in a word it would be build and Because I'm from California in Texas. It's build stuff But it's more than that the transition to net zero means to build a lot of stuff Very quickly very rapidly to move faster than we ever have before because the energy transition is one where we build The scale of infrastructure growth that's needed is unprecedented It's kind of hard to wrap your head around sometimes the scale and magnitude of what we're talking about and it needs to happen as Melissa said so much Faster than it's ever happened before Energy transitions take time If you look back over history 60 70 80 years for new sources of energy to reach critical mass to displace older Sources of energy that came before them There are two reasons for this First is it takes a long time for the capital stock to turn over the homes the vehicles the heating systems We have the factories we have Think of the most recent report from the international energy agency It found that last year one in seven new car sold globally was electric That's a huge achievement one out of every seven and the IEH projects that within five years One out of every four new car sold globally will be electric. Maybe it'll be more than that And the IA also finds that a decade from now oil demand will be higher than it is today That's partly because we use oil for things other than cars But it's also because it takes a long time for the stock of vehicles to turn over when people own their cars 13 14 15 years on average It's also what happens when you move from 1 billion cars in the world to 2 billion by 2050 as People move from two and three-wheeled vehicles to four-wheeled vehicles with rising Prosperity and that takes me to the second reason that transitions take a long time and always have Energy use keeps going up Indeed the history of energy is not one of transitions. It's one of the additions If you think of the energy transition a phrase we throw out casually all the time You might think of a figure in your head of something like going from zero to a hundred percent From 1850 until today and we see these great shifts over time from wood To coal with the industrial revolution and then from coal to oil and gas and nuclear and increasingly Renewables and zero carbon forms of energy great shifts over time as a percentage of the total But if you look at the same data not as a percentage of the total the total energy use metric tons of energy We're using more of everything. Nothing has ever gone down We've met the growth in energy with new and different forms of energy But we're using more wood and biomass today than we did in 1850 Because the denominator keeps getting bigger energy use keeps going up that's what happens when populations grow and Societies industrialize and become more prosperous and their energy use rises as a result and to be clear That is not a bad thing rising energy use It means that some of the lowest income countries in the world that by the way will be worst impacted by many of the impacts of climate change That they're becoming better off But it is also why despite all the progress and all the pledges and all the targets and all the goals and all the commitments It's also why the gap between ambition and reality on climate is still growing and not shrinking So when we talk about that gap And we think about this what does it mean as we go down the path in front of us? What does it mean as we go to net zero? I see two broad ways that we can close this gap one is That we make some progress we go to one in seven cars to one in four being sold that are electric We build a lot of wind and solar And we do make progress, but not enough And so what we do is we learn to live in a very altered future state So we learn to live with climate change So I'm talking about floods and droughts. I'm talking about catastrophic wildfires. I'm talking about famine I'm talking about population displacement of people leaving their homes Talking about unhealthy communities talking about a ton of stress in the system The progress we made wasn't enough so we adapt and we adapt a lot The second alternative is something that I Think is probably more likely Because the cost of the first scenario of not acting in line with our goals is so huge and unacceptable But the second option seems maybe more likely So option two on closing the gap is That we move faster than we maybe ever have before That we build so much stuff all the things we need to move an economy and We move and reconfigure that economy in a way that is sustainable There's a lot of reasons why I think that this second Spot is more likely. It's not just this It's not just the unacceptability of not moving It's actually some of the social shifts that we are already seeing and social pressures that we're seeing to move As well as the policy actions that we're seeing being taken in our home country the United States with the inflation reduction Act across Europe with repowering you and the Green New Deal and Then also here in China with renewable energy targets that seem poised to be run past so fast And when I think about all of the social pressures all the technologies we have and what we can do It feels like we're on the precipice of something really huge as Melissa said in my view Climate action is likely to proceed as Ernest Hemingway once wrote bankruptcy does In his famous novel the Sun also rises There's a character named Mike and Mike has asked how he went bankrupt and Mike responds to it gradually and then all of a sudden and The social mobilization to tackle climate with the urgency we need to may proceed in a similar way And this growing social mobilization to tackle climate with the urgency we need to that's just one of many ways In which the transition to net zero is likely to be non-linear Disruptive jagged volatile all of which makes it harder to have a clean energy transition if we're not careful about it Just think of what Melissa was talking about before how quickly we need to build infrastructure How hard it is to scale global supply chains at 30 40 50% year-on-year growth and do in an era of rising trade tensions and Economic fragmentation as we've talked about here this week over the last few days We're thinking about a hard it is to get at least in some parts of the world like where we come from The permits and approvals that you need to build that much stuff that quickly It takes an average of 16 years to bring a new mining project to development And as we all know to have a clean energy transition we need to dramatically scale the critical minerals that are available like nickel and copper lithium and cobalt that we need for many technologies in clean energy a Six-fold increase in critical minerals by 2050 according to the International Energy Agency You can't electrify an economy without a lot of copper copper demands projected to grow to Copper demands projected to double by the end of this decade, and we're not even on track for our climate goals yet Or think about how geopolitics which is where I spend a lot of my time Previously worked in government at the National Security Council think about a geopolitics could complicate the energy transition and make it more Jagged and more volatile Right now most of those critical minerals for example are refined and processed right here in China and In some parts of the world like where we come from there's growing concern About the consequences of that and the geopolitical influence and energy security risks that may result in governments are going to respond To try to reduce that dependence Think about the potential geopolitical complications of what we are seeing with Rising tensions rapidly rising tensions between rich and poor countries between north and south Last year 75 million people around the world lost their ability to pay for basic energy services The first year in the 20 years that figure has been tracked that that number went in the wrong direction There's a growing sense of hypocrisy and resentment among many of the lowest income Countries in the world an emerging market countries in the world toward the wealthier ones at how the climate Change action is proceeding how the clean energy transition is Proceeding and these again are parts of the world not responsible for most of the world's historic emissions around 2% of the accumulated emissions to date Are from Africa nearly half from the United States and Europe and this problem risks getting worse not Better this rising tension Last year there was a hundred and fifty billion dollars spent on clean energy and emerging and developing economies That needs to rise from a hundred and fifty billion to one trillion by the end of this decade to be on track for our climate goals Where's that money going to come from? In a world where the higher currency exchange risk political risk higher cost of capital and where wealthier countries have Still failed to make good on pledges. They made more than a decade ago For financial assistance to help lower income countries cope with the impacts of climate change and develop their economies in a cleaner way Think about what the transition from one fuel to another might mean if we don't Kind of get right synchronizing the decline in investment in oil supply with declines in demand We could see more volatility We're the need to call on countries with spare capacity to smooth Volatility and oil prices like Saudi Arabia that goes up before it goes down their geopolitical influence rises Even if decades from now declining oil demand might mean less oil revenue for Petra states that have traditionally Depended on that revenue and could risk political instability in some of those parts of the world All of these are just a handful of some of the risks some of the reasons why the broad geopolitical trends of today Great power rivalry particularly between the US and China Growing trade tensions more divergence not convergence between wealthy and poor countries growing economic fragmentation All of that could make it much harder to have the clean energy transition that we need And I say all of that not because we should slow down the pace of the energy transition as you've heard We need to move much faster, but if we don't anticipate these risks Think about mechanisms to smooth them think about how to derisk the energy transition We risk being unable to have one because of energy affordability and reliability and security Come into conflict with climate ambition We've seen from yellow vest protests and many other examples time and again climate risks being on the losing end So there are a lot of challenges But it is also true Melissa and I believe that there is a real opportunity in crisis So we look at more important and we talk about those real challenges and then we talk about the real opportunities I Think about it in a couple of different ways and we talk about this all the time at our work in the center on global energy policy So we think about the path ahead and it is very clear that the energy transition is going to be messy It's going to be really hard Honestly, it's going to be confusing. There's going to be moments where we're wondering. Are we going forward or back up or down? This is jagged. This is rough. This is problematic at times But the outcomes are unacceptable. We talked about that So how do we lean in to the scale and the scope and the sheer speed of this transition to accomplish our goals to accomplish our energy and climate goals We do it in a number of different ways and at the university We spend a good amount of our time learning from history Looking at things that have happened in the past understand how things might unfold in the future When I look at history, I see a lot of examples of us reconfiguring economies When we have stress in our system when our lives are threatened Whether it's pandemics or wars When our lives are threatened, we make big big moves very very quickly And the good news in this case Is that we're all on the same team We're all working towards the same goal And so I think that makes some of this very difficult very messy process A bit easier in a way than the things that we study in history So how do we move forward and how do we actually capture those opportunities? How do we make the progress that we need to? How do we make a choice to move to net zero? As we look forward at what we need to do We could get scared at the sheer magnitude of what we're trying to do Or we can lean into the opportunities the opportunities it creates because that's the point It's not about a power plant. It's not about an electrolyzer to make hydrogen or your favorite technology That's not what it's about It's about supporting healthy communities. It's about supporting human flourishing and giving us the opportunity for continued growth And so when we look at the light at the end of this tunnel Or the end of this path to net zero even along the path and we think about the opportunities that are being created We're talking about healthier communities We're talking about wealth opportunities. We're talking about economic growth We're talking about not allowing things that could slow us down and achieving our goals of having healthy and wealthy communities Overcoming them to be even healthier and wealthier And this makes me wonder back to something jason said a few minutes ago Progress to date has been slow But it seems like if we can really lean into understanding the fundamentals of the challenges that are ahead of us All the things that jason outlined I think we're about to move all at once to net zero Thank you very much. Um with that we'll go to questions Thank you Core is very open for anything that's on your mind any questions you want to ask So who wants to kick us off? Thank you We've got a question right here. I think up in the front And we'll get you a mic just so we can do those simultaneously. Thank you so much. Do you mind just introducing yourself? Yes, my name is k suki from uh, japan uh doing a private equity fund Investing in sustainability and linear boost Okay, can you tell can you tell us a little bit about uh, new technology like hydrogen or ammonia or Carbon capture that kind of things There's a bunch of different ways that we think about hydrogen So i'm not sure if your question is about the state of technology or how we think about it in the transition But for the most part hydrogen is an energy storage technology. That's what it really is You take electricity you take energy inputs and you turn it into something that you can either Use in a different way or store for a very long period of time We talk about storing it as ammonia because we know what to do with ammonia That's something that we've done for a while when you talk about fertilizers and agriculture We know what to do with that with that particulars of molecules Um, so in the future hydrogen can make a lot of sense in a bunch of different applications So there's a common theme about do we use hydrogen all over the economy? I would say it's more likely use it in a few key places at least at first And that could be in heavy industry where we need really high heats to make the stuff that we want in our lives Um after that you could see it being an energy storage technology to let's say store electricity when it's not available And you've got a bunch of extra this time of year and you don't have it this time of year So let's use it as long duration storage But ammonia is an interesting one I used to live in japan and we talk about okay as being an import dependent economy How do you think about what different fuels you can ship around and have around whenever you need them? Because in the pathway to net zero we're not going to accept a future that is less reliable Or really less affordable than it is today So hydrogen's an interesting one as are a bunch of other fuels. I can nerd out about later Any other questions Stephen from australia dealing the mining industry quick question You mentioned about for us to reach the Net zero objectives in the future. We're going to need six times the amount of minerals we we're producing now When you mentioned de-risk, what did you can you talk a bit more about that? Are you talking about the supply chains? What is that? Can you please elaborate? Yeah, I think uh, look part of the answer is we're figuring it out as we go we We're going to celebrate the 50. Well, it's not to celebrate. That's the wrong word this year will mark The 50th anniversary of the arab oil embargo And as someone who studies energy history you sort of think about how that shock to the world Created a set of mechanisms that came out of it like the international energy agency for more data transparency So we didn't have a lot of data on oil markets before and there were some you know better than I some parts of the The metals market we saw what happened with nickel and the lme for example where maybe we need some more regulation or some more transparency We came out of the 1970s and we built strategic oil reserves in case there were disruptions now It's I think much more complicated to think about how you would build Strategic stockpiles of of minerals and of course there are many different types of minerals and how they would but when we think about We should also say that the risks we are concerned about I think are different There's a difference between the daily flow of energy if oil supply is disrupted your ability to move your cars today That is different than there if there's a disruption in the supply of copper or lithium That would lead to supply chain problems costs would go up You might find it harder and more expensive to buy a new electric car It wouldn't affect your ability to drive whatever kind of car you have today So the risks are different. We need to be really thoughtful and precise about them Um, it is also the case that there's much more concentration with where the minerals are produced So the largest producers of oil in the world the u.s. Saudi Arabia and russia Each between 10 and 15 percent of global supply the largest producers of lithium of cobalt and And and lithium cobalt and nickel Each of them produce more than half the largest producer produces more than half of global supply So there's much more concentration and I think that That raises a lot of potential security concerns And we're seeing that particularly what I mentioned given how much of the refining and processing happens here in china I just co-chaired a task force that developed a critical mineral strategy for the u.s I briefed lawmakers on capitol hill about it and that dependence on imports But particularly dependence on china for imports is one of the things that if you're in europe or in the united states Is top of mind for policy makers now the question is so what do you do about it? It is simply and one of the findings in this task force report we'll put out Was important to say it is not possible to do this without being integrated into a global economy without a huge amount of global trade And china is going to play an important role in that so we need to think about what it looks like to reduce the risks of supply disruptions whether it's intentional and geopolitically motivated or because of a accident of nature or anything else And that could I think you know when you think about where security of supply comes from generally whether it's oil or minerals Or steering wheels if you're an automaker and you're worried that 90 percent of your steering wheels come from one supplier You want to think about diversification that's sort of first and foremost right? when Winston Churchill famously moved the british navy from coal to oil He was famously said you know security and oil supply comes in variety and variety alone So diversify your supply base potentially think about The kind of inventory levels you have whether they're private commercial inventories or government stockpiles I think a lot a lot of innovation and rnd Can play a role in this for improved recycling if we can grow the reduce the growth Through new battery chemistry technologies through recycling that can help as well And trying to make sure we have stronger partnerships part of the thing I'm worried about in the united states is that one of the few things both democrats and republicans can agree on Is that free trade is not in fashion as much as it was before but if we want to build secure supply chains We need more partnerships and trade agreements Rather than than fewer. So I think those are some of the things that that That government should be doing and again we spell out some of those in these recommendations we released It's part of what the EU mineral strategy Is doing I'll make a quick comment just about numbers and if whoever has a question next we can go ahead and move the mic But to give a context around the numbers because i'm like scale of this challenge What are we talking about if we want to get to net zero and we follow let's just go with one The international energy agency has their net zero pathway And you look at the increase in the amount of annual production of lithium we focus on this a lot when we talk about batteries It's a 450 times increase. I think it's 456 times increase Off of what I for my memory serves a hundred thousand metric tons base that we have today The number that really blows me away Is a different one. It's copper today. We produce I think it's around 20 million metric tons of copper We talk about electrifying everything. What does that mean a lot of wires? And we're talking about an 8x increase in the production of copper that is massive And with that when you talk about risk, I think about how do we build All of the mines and the entire supply chain we need to create that and within that there's a bunch of different questions Including a social justice question and community engagement little holes Yeah, and so when you think about that the conversations were involved in with local communities are yes, we had a mine here in the past cool the next mine What's in it for us? How are we going to partner in this? We're not interested in a school a road We're talking about full development and we've seen some of the trade-offs and here's how we feel about it Here's what we're willing to do next and those conversations are complicated and important And so when we talk about risk, there's geopolitical risk There's technology risk But there's this type of social risk as well as we develop about the next rounds of mines and the entire supply chain to go with it One more data point in the united states 97 percent of nickel reserves that we know of and you know again like we like with oil There's probably reserves we don't know about yet and that's part of the role of technology But existing known reserves 97 percent of nickel 90 percent of copper 80 percent of lithium Over than 35 miles of a native american reservation And so when you think about the potential impacts from large-scale increase in mining for local communities indigenous communities tribal communities You know, frankly the mining industry has a mixed track record and how it's engaged with those communities And that's just going to be critically important to get right for equity and justice and to do right by those communities Make sure they benefit economically and also just for the social license that the industry needs to scale at the at the rate We need to Can we get a mic up here please? Okay, I'm Yang Wei from Peking University And I want to ask a question about the renewable integration, you know with Heller and Heller share of the renewable solar and the wind And it's becoming a totally different challenge for good news is they are cheap, but Challenges the three-term cost are increasing or fast So I want to hear your comments about this situation Okay, Jason knows I spent a lot of my time on this, which is why we just smiled at each other Absolutely, so when you look at all the analysis around how we get our electricity systems Which are the backbone of this whole transition to net zero So how do you get the emissions down in that? What you find across all of them is that if you want to be affordable and reliable and clean So all three things in the future you actually need three different types of technologies We focus on solar and wind a lot. That's a bucket one variable renewables When they're around as you say they are so cheap. We want to use them like we absolutely do But they can't do it all alone So we compliment and with storage not just batteries, but other things as well We talked about hydrogen a little bit earlier the different ways to store energy over long periods of time Net result is that's still not enough. We need a third type of technology Which is firm dispatchable power things that can be around 24 7 365 whenever we want them So these are technologies that are not spoken about as much in some parts of the world They might be geothermal or very big hydro if you have that resource There might be nuclear power Which is a different conversation in different countries that I work with around the world And even within the us in different states and different communities within those states It's a different conversation And what you say is that you can't just have variable renewables Even if you back them up with storage if you want it to be affordable and reliable and clean You need that third bucket and you might actually need a couple of complementary players Which is the third player which is to say, you know in this particular place It is too expensive to get the power all the way to net zero So we're going to offset it in some legitimate way whether it's director capture or nature based solution or something else But the conversation so gets focused on the wind and solar. That's great We want a lot more of it way more than we have today But we have to complement it with other things Or we end up on this road that won't get us all the way to the affordable reliable and clean future that we're talking about Look at your question Other questions You got one in the back in the middle Hi, my name is Paul Savagy. I'm a professor at Oxford I would like to ask a question about the you mentioned many technologies that have been developed green technologies How can we accelerate what are the the Governors and policy prospects to accelerate these transitions And you said carbon tech and carbon management. Yeah, yeah carbon tech. Awesome. Do you want to start? I am an engineer and policy person by training So I can just we can just have a whole hour on this afterwards But in the meantime, I'll say a couple of different things one when you look at all the different scenarios You need some type of carbon tech You need to figure out how to take that carbon and actually make it into something useful something profitable At a minimum figure out how to store it underground so it doesn't do harm So when we talk about a bunch of different technologies, no offense to the gorgeous country of iceland But direct air capture is just one thing that is being developed I see a lot of excitement going on in carbon the products and we actually have an initiative at our center Uh to complement some of the work that's going on in a lot of great universities around the world to say How do we take this thing that is costing us a lot and make it into a value stream? So utilize it. Don't just store it turn it into a product that you want to see it in So this could be something that um, some of y'all might have seen from carb fix So something where you take carbon and greenhouse gases and you actually put it in the cement to make it stronger And need less of it that might be one of the things we develop But there is a long list of ways when we think about greenhouse gas emissions as molecules that we can recombine To things we want and might actually use um it gets incredibly interesting A lot going on I'll just let melissa speak to the technology because she knows it better than I do and my own background is in international economics and foreign policy and national security and I just want to emphasize a point I made in the talk Because we are brought together here by the world economic forum It is the foremost organization in the world over the last several decades To try to remind people about the benefits of an integrated global economy with careful guardrails and protections and all the rest And the the risk that we are headed in the other direction right now I worry is is is a huge headwind for the clean energy transition We need a lot more cross-border trade a lot more collaboration if we're going to have the kind of energy transition we need to Uh, so that really does pose a risk to scaling many of these technologies as quickly as we need to So with that we are out of time Probably ran a minute over apologies to us, but we really enjoyed the conversation and I look forward to pulling up with y'all Thank you so much for your time. Thank you