 All right, well, thank you. Thank you very much for being here. Thanks for the introduction. Really looking forward to the next 30, 40 minutes or so together talk about a few different topics on gamification and some other things. Before I do really get started, I have a link here to a post on my website where I put links to the slides and also some questions that we're going to talk through. And I'm hoping actually to revive some comment section down the road, or you can also just tweet with the WCUS hashtag. And I'll explain that kind of as we go along. So I'm going to get started taking us back a little bit to the 1970s, maybe early 1980s. There was a popular game show, Let's Make a Deal. It was on TV. It still actually, I think, kind of exists today. But one of the games that was really popular looked a little bit like this. On the stage, there'd be three doors. And behind one of those doors was a brand new car. And so the host, Monty Hall, he would call someone up, choose someone from the audience, and ask them to pick a door. And they're hoping that they win that brand new car. So I'd like to start by us kind of going through and playing that game a little bit ourselves. So does anybody have a door that they'd like to choose? One, two, three. Shout it out if you have three. I heard two. So I'm going to go with two because that's what I pre-selected. And I do also, there's not going to be an Oprah moment. No one's winning a car. You're not winning a car. But we're going to play through this together. So as a group, we're playing We've Chosen, door number two. And remember, our goal is to try and win this brand new car. But I'm going to throw a little bit of a curveball in there. Instead of showing you if you won the car or not, behind door number two, I'm going to show you what's behind door number one. And door number one is nothing, loser. On the TV show, they had like a goat eating some plants or something there. And so I have now showed you behind door number one. You chose door number two. Now I'm going to ask you the question. Do you stay? Go with your gut. Stay with door number two. Or do you switch? Knowing now that door number one is empty, do you switch to door number three? Or does it not really matter? Our goal here is, again, to figure out which one of these scenarios is going to give us the best chance of winning that brand new car. So I'll show it again. Just quickly, we have three doors. Do you go with your gut? Do you switch? Or it doesn't matter. There's two doors. It's probably like a 50-50 chance. So raise your hands. I would participate a little bit. Who thinks that we should just stay? Go with our gut feeling. Anybody? Yeah, a whole bunch of you. Who thinks you should switch to door number three? Maybe fewer of you there. And who thinks it doesn't matter? Yeah, some of you there. Very good. So I'm not going to tell you the answer just quite yet. Hopefully, it'll keep you in the room to see what happens. But we're going to come back to this and see if it can teach us something about what we're looking to do. So I'd like to paint a picture a little bit about this. For those of you that, if you know me, my friends, they know I'm not a gamer. I don't really like board games. I've never been into video games. Maybe a few word games or sports. But it's not really my thing. I've also always been very skeptical of the word gamification itself. I think it'd be kind of a buzzword, be a little overused. So that might be a little strange why you think I would choose this topic. But I hope that that will make a little bit sense. But I do have 15 years of building businesses on the web and writing a lot of content on the web, working on a lot of landing pages and marketing campaigns and all that. And then I did teach algebra and calculus and critical thinking and writing for a while. And I've kind of found there's a lot of overlap between marketing and content and products with the world of education, the world of psychology. And I want to bring some of that up as we go. And you've probably noticed if you're working on marketing campaigns, we have a lot of content saturation. When I started writing content like 15 years ago, you could write something and it would probably get ranked and at least somewhere where someone would find it. Also it was a lot cheaper to buy ad campaigns than it is now, all sorts of things like that that are changing. I also think you'll agree with me that for just about any keyword that you're trying to rank for, you're trying to show up in Google, the first page, the first 20 pages are just full of links that if you open them up, they all look really similar. The content is often similar. We're all kind of starting to sound like robots. And in fact, in many ways, robots are writing some of our content, right? And then we see some subscription fatigue going on. It was all the rage. The WordPress businesses especially, we embraced the subscription model services. You always want to get them hooked on a recurring subscription. I think that's getting a lot harder. I think we're all finding that people are being a little bit, there's a lot, not as easy to pull out that credit card and pay. So I've been thinking a whole lot about, how do we overcome this? How do we change minds? How do we stand out above the crowd? All that sort of good stuff. And I think of it as kind of a, what would game designers do? How do people experience games when they play them? And that kind of helps frame some of what we can do to help kind of overcome some of these obstacles. It's also important because Google is telling us it's important, so that makes it important to us. If you're like me, you probably have gotten hundreds of emails from Google over the last six months telling us we have to update to Google Analytics 4 from Google Analytics 3. And I think there's been a talk or two this weekend about that update. And I recently got in, updated a few of the sites to Google Analytics 4, been playing around. And the main thing that I've noticed is just a change in terminology that what we used to just talk about is sessions or page views or visits. They're engaged sessions. What we used to talk about is time on page. Google is now calling them Engaged Average Engagement Time. So they're using that word engagement. They're also telling us in the recent rollouts that you've probably heard about with the helpful content rollout and the rankings that our content needs to be helpful. We need to make sure we're not writing for SEO and all that sort of good stuff. So Google's telling us engagement's important. And so to me, when I think about gamification, I did a lot of research into what the definitions people use, academic definitions and otherwise for gamification and kind of came up with what I hope is the shortest definition possible. Adding game elements to non-games to motivate and engage. And those words motivate and engage are again the super important one. We're trying to change behaviors and we're doing that through engagement. And we can break gamification up into kind of two buckets when we're talking about different types of gamification or ways that we can gamify different experiences. And when I started kind of putting this together, it became clear to me why I've always been skeptical of that word gamification. And that's because our natural instinct or what we first think about with gamification is what you see on the left side here, those game mechanics. And they can be important. I'm not saying they're not valuable. You have points and leaderboards and badges and rewards and those sorts of things. But then you also have game experiences. What game designers, game developers put into games, both virtual and video games and board games and all the games that humanity's been playing for a long time. Often games that are popular, that people enjoy playing, there's lots of storytelling or there's stories involved in the game. There's challenges. By definition, games are challenging. That's why we're playing them. But we're trying to overcome some challenge. There's usually choice involved in games. You have to make decisions on how you play the game or what do you do next. And many times there's some sort of community collaboration element in a game that's often why we play them. When I do like to play games, it's with friends and it's really more about being together and being collaborative than it is about the game. And there's interaction in a game. And I don't mean interaction like collaboration or community. I mean that you're physically doing something. Even on a video game, you're moving your thumbs or space bar or something. There's a tactile experience, touch and interaction with games. And so I think what is super interesting to me is kind of think about that when we approach our content, when we approach our marketing campaigns, when we approach our onboarding and products. People like games generally. I kind of said I didn't, but truth is I do like some. And we can shy away from some of these game experiences for certain reasons that we can talk about. And so there's a lot of interesting things here. Also I've noted that the game mechanics are extrinsic motivators, while game experiences are intrinsic motivators. And that's interesting because in the world of education and psychology, there's lots of research that's pretty overwhelming. This is generalizing, but extrinsic motivators typically have a point of diminishing returns. They, it diminishes over time how effective those extrinsic motivators are. While intrinsic motivators are the opposite. Over time, it's harder to get started. It's harder for intrinsic motivation to happen and to have effect. But over time it's gonna be more valuable. It's gonna perpetuate you a little bit further. And so that's another reason why I find the game experiences side more interesting. I'm not totally trying to knock the game mechanics and I'll show some examples where that comes into play as well. But I wanted to kind of change a mindset as you, as you, you know, as a framework to work from with different content or campaigns. What can we gamify? I'll try not to read through all of these, but you know, on landing pages, you're seeing more and more landing pages that have interactive content on them. As simple as like an accordion or tabs or something where you're forcing someone to, you know, use their mouse or their keyboard to open something and look at content. There's choice in landing pages often where you can help personalize it or something. We have fun lead magnets and this is where it can work in this mechanic side or even a game itself. You know, spin the wheel and get a discount off or something. In online courses or in courses in general, you'll often see progress bars and there's good reason for that from like a game perspective. People like to see it's like levels in a game. You like to know where you're going, know what the roadmap is, but also it's very satisfying when you see how far you've come and what's been checked off. You can have required engagement in courses where you can force someone to watch a video before they can move on to the next lesson or open up a accordion or something. And good courses often have some sort of collaborative element between students and peers or maybe with the instructor or the teacher. So you're building in that community. In product onboarding and product marketing, either through emails that you're sending or within the product itself, good ones often have some personalization. And again, that goes back to those game experiences that we were talking about. Checklist, a lot like progress bars. There's psychology behind just showing that that box is checked, but also psychology behind an empty box that's standing there that needs to be checked. So it's good to have those things. And it's appropriate to have rewards and celebrations. Send a fund notification or some confetti on the page or something. There's proof that that can be effective. Blog posts, adding in some quiz element or embedding some quizzes. Blog posts that are good often tell a good story, just like games can tell some stories. Or we've kind of gotten away from comments on blog posts and websites for obvious reasons of trolls and drama and whatnot. But I would love to see us get back to someday having more dialogue on the web outside of some proprietary platforms or something like that. And how do we gamify for those interactions? Again, I think in some of the previous talks today, identified a bunch of blocks. And there's blocks for almost everything now, which is super exciting with accordions and tabs and carousels and pagination and interactive images, like with hotspots, where you can click them and open up some information. This may not seem like gamification to you, but to me, this is the way that we are adding in interactive elements and trying to make it a participatory experience for whoever's interacting with your content. Experiences, playing games within the content itself, interactive videos, so videos that pause or have buttons over them or something like that. And it's not just a passive watching experience. Again, quizzes, you can embed 3D or VR or different experiences in the content. And again, that collaborative piece and adding discussion back in. So I'm gonna get to in just a second some more detailed examples, but I kinda wanted to just take a pause to say, like a lot of this stuff was not possible or was a lot harder on WordPress sites specifically two, three, five, 10 years ago. You had to find some third party service often that you were embedding or you had to custom code some solution that probably in the end was inaccessible or had some compatibility issue or browser issue. And now we do have standardization with blocks. We also have some really strong page builders and some other experiences that do allow for the easier, much easier creation of these sorts of experiences and that is super exciting to me. And speaking of blocks, I know there are teams on WordPress.org that are really working on interactive content within blocks and making the developer experience better there through hydration and these react blocks. A lot of that's over my head, but I know there's people here at the WordCamp that are actively working on this. So if you are developer inclined and this is interesting, this is from the make WordPress blog a couple of months ago, you can Google that title and it'll pop up in the conversation and the teams that are working on that, which I think is pretty important for us to keep driving and making better. So this is the point where I'm gonna hopefully get some of you to this to be an example of sort of an interactive and two-way conversation. Unfortunately, I think the room's a little large. Like we can't just pause and do like microphones. I think there will be time at the end if there are questions or some follow-up, but I wanna encourage you either on Twitter with the WCUS hashtag or in the comment section on the blog post on my site. I'm gonna ask some questions going forward with some examples and I'm gonna kind of give you my perspective on that, but some of it may be controversial or maybe you'll have a mean tweet or maybe you'll agree with me and I would love to hear that and I'm hoping that we can have some ongoing dialogue after the session as well. So hopefully that'll make sense. Feel free to back-channel or multitask or whatever. So my first question is, is it bad to make users struggle? And I ask this because we actually have conversations about this in projects that I work on all the time. Like we just, we kind of make this assumption, the natural reaction or the natural assumption is just like, if we can just make this easier and just deliver this perfect experience with like one click or within five minutes for the user or whatever, it's gonna solve all the problems, they're gonna throw all their money at us, right? And then you have to kind of step back and think like, is that always best? And that's kind of a weird question to ask and I kind of put it in the frame of this image here. You probably, most of you recognize from the first level of the first world of the first game of Mario Brothers on the original Nintendo. And the developers, the founders of Mario did a lot of interviews where they talked about, especially this particular level but the whole game of Mario was built in a very much a scaffolding way where you would experience something safely and then you would experience where it might kill you and you have to start over. So this is the very first jump in Mario, the very first time there's ground there that'll catch you. And the second jump, there's no ground, you're gonna die. And this is just a good visualization to me of scaffolding, an intentional scaffolding in a game and where it's okay to have that second jump but if we prepare the user or we prepare the reader or we have what they need. When I was a math teacher, I used to get in trouble sometimes because students would ask like, can you just show me how to do this? And I would say no and they'd go complain to their parents that I wasn't being nice but I was doing that on purpose. I wanted them to sit with that problem a little bit and struggle a little bit when I knew that they had what they needed in order to solve it. And that is kind of a difficult question but in our landing that we develop, it's tempting to put exactly what you think they need is short as possible at the top with the CTA right there but they're not ready for that CTA or whatever it is. And so I wanna challenge this assumption that we all make all the time that we shouldn't make people struggle. This question, are sliders evil? This came up because it was, I don't know, like a month ago in the post status slack, there was a whole thread of comments about this. Someone posted something about sliders and there was a whole bunch of comments where I think only one person out of all of them were saying like, kill all sliders, no sliders please, they're terrible. And then I was thinking, well that's kind of an example of sliders. We're conditioned where it's interactive, where you're making a choice to move on to the next slide, where you're saying that I wanna know more, I realize that I need to scroll over to get the next thing. That is showing some sort of intent. That's higher likely that you're gonna pay attention to that second slide because you clicked on it. So I'm not saying let's fill the web with sliders by any stretch and I don't think that they necessarily need to live at the top of most home pages. But this is an interesting A-B test that was done. I'm a sucker for a good A-B test story. And there's lots of companies that are large enough to do lots of A-B testing. Sometimes we'll share their results and it's often interesting what they find. And so this was a device magic website. They had kind of, it is interactive in that I had video and there was some tabs on the original homepage and then they redid it with a slider. Now it's not a perfect test on the sliders because the new slider had paired down content that was probably a little bit more just easier to read and like a clearer message that they were delivering. But the slider delivered 31% increase in signups for them. So this is at least one counter example that all sliders are evil. In this case it was pretty productive for device magic. This one I have debates on all the time with marketing folks when we're working on landing pages. Does our landing page, you should just have one goal. Please don't. If you research landing pages best practices, it's like the number one thing that comes up in all of those blog posts that you'll read. Like only have one thing that the user can do. Make sure it's the one thing you really want them to do. And I wanna challenge that long standing practice. On some landing pages it probably still makes sense but in other contexts, more choice may be better. And I think video games is an example where it shows us that sometimes people like choice. So this is a screenshot of the Duolingo website. When I tell people that my work that I help people create online courses, the first thing that most people say is like, oh I love Duolingo. I'm like, well I don't have anything to do with Duolingo but that's a testament to Duolingo has a pretty strong following for the people that use it. And so if you haven't used it before, this isn't a pitch for them or anything but they also are probably the best example out there of using those game mechanics and gamification in their app and in everything they do. The points and the leaderboards and all that like really works for them in their model. But they're also a company that does a whole bunch of A.B. testing and sometimes will share those results and they claim hundreds of tests a week and tens of thousands of A.B. tests a year that they do between their marketing and in their app and in their products. But they had a really interesting case study on their landing pages and their kind of sign up and checkout process. And basically the end result is that they had originally a pretty hard paywall at the beginning of the high up in the funnel where if you wanted their paid version, like they wanted your credit card and they were gonna take you right into the paid version and once you kind of showed interest in that paid service, they made it kind of hard to get out of that funnel once you were in there. And so they kept testing over and over again like what if they put a softwall in there where they give you a choice? Like sure we'll take your credit card now and we'll update you but here's another option. You can extend your free trial for a week or you can go and try this lesson or they did all these things. And what they found and what I was reading is that the more softwalls they put in and the longer they extended this funnel, the better their overall like monthly analytics of sign ups and everything became. And it's kind of counterintuitive to everything we hear like we need to slim down, we need to have one, you know, one CTA, one funnel, it needs to be pretty strict and pretty aggressive. So that's a pretty cool story. And I like to have this argument about one goal. I don't like to have this argument but I seem to be having it all the time. Another question is beautiful always best. So here's some more debates that we get to have with designers sometimes when we're content people. I think games are an example where think back to the games that you probably played when you were younger, super eight bit, kind of like these slides or my kids play Minecraft or whatever, it's not the most beautiful experience. It's not the most engaging experience. But, well, it is engaging, but it's not beautiful, right? And this is a pretty cool case study from a few years ago. I know it's not games and it's not even content but it's pretty funny. So Tropicana, orange juice, if you didn't see this one for a long time had the carton on the left. With the, if you can't see it, it's with the orange. There's an orange, a picture of a pretty inviting nice orange with a straw through it. And then their marketing team came one day with, well, we need to modernize and update and get this super modern slick looking redesign. I mean, how many of us have gone through that with websites like ours looks outdated and our page looks outdated or whatever. We'll fix all of our problems if we just redesign. Well, in Tropicana's case, they rolled this out, put it on the shelves and within two months, 20% sales, 20% it's pretty significant. It's something like $30 million or something because of this redesign. So they're kind of, what they said from what I could read is that they thought it was like brand loyalty. People were like rejected the change. I think that most of us don't have like a lot of brand loyalty to our orange juice. It was just that the left picture, even though it may not be beautiful, just told a great story. Like it's a, you're drinking right out of the orange. The text on the right, by the way says the same thing, pure and natural or something like that. But it's not as obvious, right? I've seen so many did a lot of university website work in the past, do big redesign and immediately all the metrics would just go down. You would plan it out perfectly. You would think you would, you did all the user research or whatever, but the redesign of the nice newer, beautiful thing wasn't successful. So I think games kind of give us some of that. It doesn't need to be always the most beautiful thing. It just needs to be the most functional thing. Can we gamify pricing? This one's kind of an interesting one. I don't know if you saw this a month or two ago. BMW announced that if their new cars have leather heated seats, your heated seats are only gonna work if you pay them $18 a month or whatever it was. I mean, to me that seems just crazy. This is an example of this subscription fatigue that's going on like businesses. Some of us in this room are probably guilty of trying to monetize something to monetize it that doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense or that is an obvious benefit to the user. There's no real reason that BMW needs to charge for the heated seats. It works, right? They got a lot of backlash for this, as I think they should. But are there actually good ways that we can gamify pricing? This one I don't have good answers for, so I would love to see tweets or comments. The one thing I kind of think of that I have seen is pricing calculators instead of like some, or maybe in addition to a sales customized quote or something, let the user customize it themselves when appropriate. See all the different variables in a pricing situation. And that's an interactive experience where you get to customize and have some choice. So maybe that's one example. There's also, you can reward people for loyalty or for completing something in a funnel with a discount. That would also be an example of gamification in pricing. And how can we change people's behaviors? Cause ultimately that's our goal, all of us. Like if we're building a product, we want them to use it. If we're writing a blog post, we want people to read it. Whatever behavior we're wanting to change. And I think in games, some of the mechanics that we see through points or through lives and a video game or something, there's numbers, there's metrics there. And those metrics can also be super influential to your user or to your reader. And this is an example of an app that I use when I have video calls at Zoom or Google Meet. It helps like block out my three loud kids when they're home. But it also gives me the summary of every call that I have right after I have it. Like right after I have it, it pops up. And so I've been working on not talking too much in meetings. And clearly this one said I talk 69% of the time so I talk too much. And then this meeting was scheduled for 30 minutes and I immediately saw that it was 44. So I also blew that goal. But I got immediate feedback that was like targeted to exactly what I need to keep tabs of. And so I think that in a game, you always get immediate feedback when you're playing and that sort of thing. So I'm trying to figure out within personalized emails that we send or content on landing pages or whatever. How can we put relevant impactful metrics in front of people? I think that will, it's gonna give us a good chance of influencing their behavior. So remember this, we started with a game. This is, it's called the Monty Hall Problem. I'm a big math nerd. And there's three doors up on the stage behind one of the doors is a brand new car. Behind two of the doors there's nothing. You would go home empty handed. And as a group, we all agreed that we chose door number two. But before showing you what was behind door number two, I opened up door number one, showed you that I was a loser. And then I asked, should you go with your gut feeling? I feel like that might have been the strongest, the highest number of you in here so that you should go with your gut feeling. I said, or the other option was you could switch to door number three. I think of the three that was the fewest number of you. Raise your hands for that one. And then a whole bunch of you said it doesn't matter. There's two doors, right? So the actual answer is that you should always switch. The one that the fewest of you said. And this is a, I kind of show my work, my math work here, there's three. I'm sorry, there's nine possible outcomes for when you stay and there's nine possible outcomes for when you switch. And if you just simulate it through, you'll see that only in three out of the nine times when you keep your original door, do you win? But six out of the nine times, you'll win if you switch. So it's double actually your chances of winning if you switch. This game was played dozens and dozens of times on, let's make a deal. And I don't think the contestants knew this strategy, but there would have been a whole lot, twice as many probably cars sold or given away if people would have known. And I think it's worth just noting, because I am the big math nerd, this problem was made pretty famous. In the worldwide, I think around 1990, Marilyn Voss Savant, she's a writer, syndicated in newspapers worldwide. She also held the Guinness Book of World Records as the world's smartest person or the world's highest IQ for a long time. I think the Guinness Book of World Records has taken that out. They don't recognize IQ as a good measure anymore, but regardless, Marilyn is clearly brilliant. And someone asked her this question about this problem and she wrote the answer and of course she got it right. But this was 1990, she got a ton of hate mail. Hate mail from professors at MIT in mathematics and other people that should know better that told her she was wrong. They all thought it was a 50-50 chance that it didn't matter, basically. And the lesson here really is that our intuition is often wrong, mine's often wrong. And so the, most of us here, our intuition here on this problem, because this problem is not intuitive for sure. I definitely got it wrong the first few times that I looked at it. But what can we do to know if our intuition is leading us in the right direction? Right, well, when I used to teach this exact problem to like 12-year-olds, which I did like 20 times, what we did was we paired up and they would play the game. 10 times where they switched, 10 times where they stayed. And then we would add up in the room and it would be without fail, 33% of the time. If you stayed, you would win and 67-ish percent of the time you would win if you switched. And then it became clear, you couldn't really argue with that. So I think this is just a good example that we need to be testing, we need to be experimenting, we need to be running simulations when we can. I know it's a problem, most of us, I don't have sites that have enough traffic to really A-B test a ton or ever. So you can't do like proper A-B testing, but you can still be experimenting, making changes, talking to users, doing some sort of qualitative feedback and that'll help us know what we should be changing, making more interactive. And that's really my whole goal here is that I, it's a philosophical thing that I've been kind of working on for a long time that so much of what we try to do as marketers or what we try to do when we're building products is funnel people through right to our goal. We're taking out a lot of choice sometimes where we're not really standing out above the crowd, we're not doing things unique. And I think that has to change for us to be as successful as possible in many cases. And I think one way to do that is to just be as interactive as possible when it makes sense to be interactive. Don't look for passive experiences. I'm excited that WordPress blocks and different page builders too like are making this so much easier for people creating content. And I really, yeah, I feel like that has the most potential for what we can change about websites and web content going forward. Right now, most of the interaction on the web is taking place on these proprietary platforms and social media or whatever, getting away from our websites. So how can we bring some of this back or build it on our WordPress sites? That's the gamification here. I think we have a little bit of time if people do about five minutes, if people do have thoughts or answers to these questions or additional questions. If you have a question, raise your hand. I'll bring you a microphone. That's so everyone that's on the live stream can also hear the question. So let's go back here. Hi, just attended a near near session on cognitive disabilities designing for people with cognitive disabilities. We really like to be a fly on the wall during a conversation between you and that speaker. I got a lot out of it probably because I do have some of that. So the idea of making the user struggle just turns me right off. Yeah. But it's just me. There may be a category of an audience out there that I don't know if there is a balance between these two approaches or certain sites and the functionality of some sites will benefit from some of the things you've been sharing whereas others might do better with a simpler critical path. Yeah, no, I really appreciate that and I agree with you completely and that's something that I didn't really mention. I mean, in the education world we call it differentiation. One size is never gonna fit all for any number of reasons and that's where that choice comes in as well. So we present opportunities for less struggle and opportunities for more struggle when that makes sense. Thank you for bringing that up. Hey, really interesting talk. I was wondering where your thoughts are of like gamification but for more like passive mediums. So like audio, podcasting, video, kind of like thoughts of applying those techniques but whereas people aren't like directly interacting with the website, they're kind of just observing it. I mean, some of the metrics that I talked about, there's a podcasting app that I use that tells me how much time I've saved because I use that app and it speeds things up through which I enjoy. Like it makes me appreciate the app more. So metrics when it makes sense, maybe. I personally don't get like super excited about like you've listened to five podcasts this week, here's a badge that doesn't like do anything for me but I know that it does for other people, they appreciate those things. So some of those mechanics might make sense. Hey, I just had a question. Do you have resources on how to implement that like WordPress plugins or tools that you could more easily or readily add some of these components to your site? Yeah, I mean I've played with a bunch and been building some too that are just different blocks. So the best place to start is the.wordpress.org plugin directory and then you can filter by blocks and then what it is that you're trying to do. There's now pretty much blocks for everything which is for a lot of things which is pretty cool. So I would start there. It is a newer thing. There's a lot of room for improvements and new things to take over but I would start in the plugin repository. Anyone else have a question? We got. Here are the funds. Oh, got here, okay. Hi, this is really interesting. I have a question about gamification for a personal blog. Like let's say the entire traffic is based on the Google and engagement, right? The ranking and stuff like that. So comment is not really a good idea because it slows the site down and telling a story is like passive. It's not very interactive. So what other ideas do you have for gamification of the blog? Yeah, I mean, in the blog post, I, you still tell a story but maybe you can tell it in a way that some ways I think back to that kind of cognitive load discussion too. Just as simple as there's a more block in Gutenberg, right? And adds pagination. I know it doesn't sound like gamification but it just adds that like I've read a paragraph or I've read a small section. I'm choosing to go on to the next piece instead of like one really, really long flow of content. Just helps break it up. There's different video mediums that you can embed that you can tell the story that way but you can have like a choose your own adventure type thing or some pause and like reflect piece or something. And we can talk more about the comments and slowing down. I mean, I'm hoping that's not always the case where that can be better, but I hear you. A lot of people don't like comments for a lot of reasons. Yeah. I have one. So when you were talking about that there's been like the extrinsic and intrinsic gamification, like, cause I think game, I think competition, getting points, but what I was almost picking up is it's more encouraging them to play with your site. So not necessarily a game, but just staying around. Yeah, I was looking at it as an engagement thing and not win it type of thing, right? But I have seen, trying to think some stories or some examples of putting competition into like encouraging there. I don't know if I have a great example, but I'll look for one. Anyone else? Do you know of a plug-in or a block that for fundraising when people are paying through PayPal to have that go back and show of a increase, increase when you have a fundraising goal, showing like a thermometer how fast you can get to it? I have seen several, some that like our extensions and some that are like standalone fundraiser, but I don't know that I've ever actually worked with one enough to be able to recommend something specifically, but I know they exist. I did a fundraiser with a nonprofit last year and it was very successful. And I didn't, I wanted to do something like that, but I couldn't find anything that worked easily, that was free. And so what I ended up doing was just, you can get thermometers made online. And so I just went and every day I'd check it and I'd put in a different picture of a thermometer. So you simplify, that's brilliant. And I know there are like free blocks that show like different charts and graphs and things. So you could like kind of, maybe there's even one for a thermometer block by now, there seems to be more and more coming out. Then you would manually update it that way, right? All right, that's it then. Thank you very much. Yeah.