 On this episode of Skeptico, a show about what happens when you really ask for answers. Do something! Come on! Breathe it! Show me something real! I need it now! Not later! Now! And a show about how you sometimes get those answers in places you wouldn't normally expect. Because there's people now who are claiming that it's a false thing and don't go in the white light and you're going to get trapped. The interesting thing to me is that I have no doubt that the basic premise of what you're saying is true. Is that there is some non-human intelligence with advanced technology that can implement means of deception in a way that he interferes with or has the appearance of interfering with what people would understand to be a near-death experience or reincarnation experience. They're faking it. I think they're faking it. That is my ultimate conclusion. But that is an important shift that no one in the NDE community is really looking at. Wow. I don't know. All I know is what I experienced is a realization that went beyond my normal consciousness of what's in the personality of this identity or any other lifetime. It's an eternal now beingness that is so deep that it's beyond question of... It's a dreaming. That's how I understand it. This is a dreaming. This here now reality is a dreaming. Yeah. Yeah. Probably co-creating a dream. But hey, I don't consider myself enlightened. I still have a long way to go. That is the closest to making sense to me. It's a co-created dreaming reality for the purpose of our own personal growth of our soul in some way. I mean, that's the only way I can wrap my arms around it in a way that both feels supported by a total opening to the data and kind of my personal intuitive sense of it. That first clip was from the movie The Gray. It's a great scene. And the second was from today's guest, Eve Lorgan, who I was reluctant to. In this interview, you'll see that I keep trying to pull back, pull back, because I didn't want to hit you with the whole my lab abduction stuff, underground basis stuff, because so many people think it's crazy. I would, of course, suggest that the natural flow of following the data here is just kind of plainly leads in that directions. I mean, we live in a post-disclosure world where these things flying around are acknowledged. And we can only assume that there is some form of non-human intelligence that is piloting those crafts. That's the most parsimonious conclusion. The part that throws people is that evidence dovetails directly with the idea that that non-human intelligence in some form is interfering with, interacting with people here on our planet. So given that all that is not that hard for people to get to, it's kind of surprising that people really pull up on the my lab thing, because if you look at it from its simplest perspective, and you've got to credit Melinda Leslie, who will come up now or in future episodes as being one of the important voices in this. If you take the my lab thing from the simplest form of, hey, there's non-human intelligence that seemed to be interacting with the humans down here, well, that's an intelligence issue. Of course, that's an intelligence issue. Of course, we need to know. We need to know what was the interaction like? What was their technology like? Did they let you fly the ship, which a lot of people say? Now, what do they know? What do they want? Those are intelligence questions. Those are questions we would expect our intelligence agencies to be asking. So of course, they're asking those. It's just really hard to swallow my lab. That's why I kept pulling back in this interview. And if you go read Evie's stuff, it goes two or three steps behind that. But I'm down with it. I'm down with some form of all of it in a skeptico kind of way. Hope you enjoy it. Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality. Today, we welcome Eve Lorgan to Skeptico. Eve has a master's degree in counseling and psychology and is a trained hypnotherapist. She's the author of two books, The Dark Side of Cupid and The Love Bite. She's an expert, both as a researcher and a therapist in anomalous trauma, particularly as it relates to relationships. Eve, welcome to Skeptico. Thanks so much for joining me. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be on your show today and we'll just go with where you'd like to take it because I know you've had some fantastic guests that I actually have known in my life. When you showed me the list, so I thought, oh boy, I better be my best self today. Well, good. You know, I'm glad you're bringing your game because I am, I am too. You know, we've had a really good exchange. I really appreciate how much you've shared with me and you've kind of pointed me in different directions as from the way I originally contacted you and it's been great. And I've listened to a lot of your interviews. We did read both your books, not thoroughly, especially on The Love Bite wasn't able to get through with that all the way. But, you know, I feel like I have a pretty good grounding and all that. And, you know, so what I wanted to do is I wanted to, well, I'm torn on how to approach this because you are super bright. You do such a great job. You're such a good presenter and people who listen to your other interviews, you know, you're highly intelligent. You're well trained and then you're in this very fringy, fringy out there kind of thing, which even for people who are fringy, it's fringy and you are not fringy. You know what I mean? You come across as very, so that's a good thing. Yeah. So what I kind of wanted to do, though, is I wanted to creep up on some of this stuff a little bit with you in a way that maybe won't totally freak people out right from the beginning. And we'll give us a way to maybe, even if we get fringy, to kind of point out how wacky the non-fringy explanation for this stuff is because I think there's really a point to me there. So, you know, one of the ways I thought about it is if you were going to the American Psychological Association and we're asked to come and do a presentation. Just on anomalous trauma as it relates to relationships. You know, just if you were going to kind of sanitize it down to that level, what would you talk about? And because I think of this comes right out of your book. Does that make sense? No, actually, I'm glad you asked that question because so much more has come to light in the counseling circles, especially relationship counseling. With respect to what they used to call in the old days was like codependency and addictions and family systems of alcoholics and co-alcoholics and abusers. And in the old days, I mean, I got my master's in 92. So that was quite a while ago. And even then it was a popular term that they threw around codependency. But I had no idea the depth of what it really means with respect to what now they're calling complex trauma or complex PTSD and how that manifests in relationship styles of relating that have to do a lot with not only certain disability disorders, which is kind of a psycho babble term, but how our early attachment styles when we're young babies and children affect how we relate later in life. So I think our vulnerability to having, let's say, dysfunctional relationships that don't work that have a lot of bizarre and conflicting characteristics could be because of unrecovered complex trauma that we didn't get to the root of, let's say people now call it shadow work. We got to do our inner child shadow work and work out those traumas you had when you were a kid and old marriage woes or whatever. But it's actually much more difficult than one would think, because with complex trauma, it means that it is something that usually starts from birth till, you know, teenagehood or whatever. And that means your brain has developed a certain style of relating with the nervous system that affects how you respond to, you know, what you think are threats or triggers. So long story short, I think a lot of the codependency issues are the narcissistic abuse like everything's all about narcissists and narcissistic abuse. What is has some merit in terms of what people notice and relationships and especially people who've been abused in narcissistic abuse relationships. So what I found is that with my work that I came from another angle I came from wanting to study what was happening with people who claim to have multiple alien visitation abduction experiences in their family lines and then relationships that they had with their families as well as with their romantic and marriage partners or those that seem to be set up by these beings that were interacting with them on these other levels. I'm going to interject, like, I'm going to pull the reins a little bit on the alien contact, not because I mean I go there all the time. And as a matter of fact, that's how I, I came to your doorstep is by interviewing people from my area of research like near death experience research near death experience science. And some of those people are saying hey, there's some kind of ET non and non human intelligence interference here thing so I'm with you on that I'm not like afraid to go there. But what I want to draw people's attention to and I wanted to draw you out on this because you do it in the book, The Dark Side of Cupid, I think in a really cool and very grounded way at the beginning. And that's this thing of anomalous trauma and anomalous experiences. So I've had these kind of conversations with people who go to the American Psychological Association and they're kind of struggling with, hey, I'm trying to get these guys to talk about like spiritually transformative experiences, which all these people are having, we can't deny, but psychology wants to pretend well no that doesn't real well let's look the other way. And then when you get into near death experiences, or you get into premonitions pre-cognition all this stuff. Psychology is reluctantly over the last 20 years had to say, Well, I can't completely look away from that. And then what you're bringing to the table which I thought was just fascinating and I hadn't thought about before but I can see you at the giving this presentation and saying, What do you do with the relationship when the start of the relationship comes with, I could telepathically hear what he was saying, I had a premonition, I had a dream that he was going to show up that she was going to show up. We all have this. I remember when I the first time I saw my wife over 30 years ago. There was something about it. There's something about the first time I laid eyes on her. And I don't know, but I think this is common to so many people when they talk about this, there is an anomalous aspect a lot of times associated with relationships. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not good, but this has not really been even touched on from a psychological standpoint. And you are going there in a number of respects in this book, beyond there, I'd say, as a precursor or a part of the ET thing that we'll get into. Yeah, I think, I mean, a lot of it is that we actually, as many humans, we don't have just five senses, we have much more. And there's many people who have more heightened perception in different ways, so they could pre cog, for example, before something happens, or being able to intuitively communicate with someone, sometimes telepathically or sometimes just sentiently knowing what they're feeling and knowing when you're going to see them next. So I've met many people who have those abilities that are natural. And so when they explain having something that they think is orchestrated by an entity, it's often because they have a perception that's above and beyond the norm, or the relationship is definitely beyond the norm of even let's say, you know, bizarre, something bizarre with a narcissist, for example. So there was enough witness testimonies in my work that indicated there's much more going on that we didn't even think was in our reality. And we need to take a look at it so that we can really regain our own sense of power and control in our lives and learn how to mitigate the negative effects of that so we don't fall vulnerable. And a lot of my work was really how to strengthen ourselves so that we are not vulnerable to these influences, and that know when they're happening or before they happen, and know what to do so that it doesn't become a problem. And it doesn't really hit you over the head like a horrible love obsession for years and years and years and, you know, believing it's your twin flame and then have all these strengths and happen. So I've run across that. And I know that there are paranormal influences that are beyond the norm that do happen that they've even photographed things and so we know they happen it's just for the standard five senses person who believes in only the, I don't know the western psychological model, or even the psychological model of what they think is the psych, or what they think is a human is limited to what we're really experiencing now. That limitation of what we think science is or humans are keeps us as a race more powerless than we have to be, and that we could actually overcome much more and be much more if we start going beyond those five senses and start exploring who we are. And this kind of gets into the, the question that one of my colleagues, Dr. Karate Molanga of Italy, who is actually a PhD in organic chemistry, he's a professor, and he did research with alien abductions in Italy, along with the UFO phenomena and how that kind of connected. And really, you know, his bottom line was, we have to know who we are as humans in order to fully understand what these other beings are and what they're really doing. And once we know who we are, we could really connect more deeply with that, which is really our eternal spirit. Then we have much more understanding and power in our lives to really live the way we want to live and not have to worry about having these bizarre things happen to us. Okay, so this is going to be an interesting kind of tug of war, but it's a true dialogue. And I really love the fact that it's so deep. Your work is so deep. And the other thing I should say is that you are coming at this from a people helper perspective. That's what you do. And as your books evidence, there are a lot of people that are suffering greatly, they're unable to get on with their lives in so many ways due to anomalous trauma. And, you know, like, because the reason I kind of pull up and kind of jump all over the place is like every word we would have to parse when we say these entities. Now we're implying nonhuman intelligence. Are we also talking about spirit beings? Are we talking about kind of satanic, malevolent? What does satanic even mean? Do we have to couch it in some kind of biblical perspective or does it go beyond that? I wrote a book a few years ago, Why Evil Matters. That was the point of the book was that we don't process evil at all really in our society. We're either secular and go, it doesn't exist, or somebody's going to pull out their Bible and say, no, I'll tell you what it is. It's right here and it's confined to this little book here. And neither one of those makes sense. We wound up with the kind of schizophrenic idea of what evil is. So I'm down with so much what you're saying. I agree that from a people helper perspective, which is where you're coming at it. You are obligated to go where these people are and enter into their world, which is also you have your own experience with this and then work through that, you know, I'm not coming at it from this perspective, right? I mean, I just spoke to, you know, the guy I interviewed just last week, a terrific guy. He had a near death experience. He was dead for an hour. Rigor Mortises had set in and the EMT in the ambulance cuts the body bag open because there's this light that comes in and a voice shines and a voice talks to Vinny can see the voice. This guy can't see it says that this guy isn't dead, puts the paddles on him. Vinny is resuscitated has this incredible near death experience, right? And Vinny comes through and so the whole thing with Vinny was very interesting. But one of the things I get from the near death experience and I talked to a bunch of people is that near death experience is definitely evidence, very convincing evidence that consciousness survives bodily death. I believe that it's evidence of a moral hierarchy, God, if you will. But it's not evidence of Jesus. It's but a lot some people come back and that's what they see is Jesus, right? That's their experience. So my point is, you're a people helper, you have to go where people are. Even this kind of researcher inquiry to perpetuate doubt guy, I'm looking at a lot of these cases in going, you know, we're probably in sync on some of this stuff, but some of the other stuff. It's just, it's kind of confusing the whole situation. And that's where I was going initially. I'm sorry to go on and on, but I want us to be on the same footing so you know where I'm coming from because at this point I know a lot more about where you're coming from than you know where I'm coming from. But like relationships are complicated, right? So you're in a field where, hey man, take all the anomalous stuff out of it. It's complicated on a just basic level of, you know, how do we get along? Who's going to change a diaper? Did you bring your check home? You know, we got to pay the rent kind of thing. It's complicated on an emotional level of love and this and the deepest part of me and you're so hot baby. And it's complicated on this spiritual level of, you know, it's complicated on a deep psychology level of, you know, you do that just like my freaking mother, you know, you're driving me nuts kind of thing. So there's so much to tease out before we even get into the anomalous stuff. I'm so glad that you're there bringing in the first layer of anomalous stuff is like you said, there's this extended consciousness realm. We are all psychic, telepathic, all the rest is. And now you're going to layer on top of that that potentially there's advanced non human intelligence or demonic stuff or whatever that is actually trying to manipulate that process. So you get where I'm coming from. I'm a little bit I'm a little bit reluctant to go all the way with some of your stuff for all the reasons that I think we need to tease a lot of stuff out before we jump all the way to the end. What are your thoughts on that? I'm sure you've you've thought a lot about this you work through a lot of this. It's you have 20. How many years of experience doing this? Now, I mean, I think I wasn't. Well, what drew me to be interested was my own experiences that had to do with UFO sightings and what I thought were ET encounters and paranormal experiences and that kind of thing. So, in my own family, I mean, I was drawn because my father worked for Lockheed and he had like books that were aerial phenomena and then some of the early UFO books and I became interested because I had sightings and experiences that I thought were benevolent but I didn't really remember. There's always this amnesia thing so there was an incongruence with the excitement about these positive space brothers and UFOs and then this horrible fear behind the real experience itself. And so what really, I mean, I was a scientist before I became a therapist I was a biochemist and then changed my field of study because I didn't really want to go there anymore. I wanted to learn more about humans and psychology and work with my own family of origin issues which I thought could contribute to my understanding of all the other stuff which it did. I don't think it explains everything that happens. Some people seem to have these unusual experiences without having had early family trauma to blame it on as being let's say a vulnerable victim being at the wrong place at the wrong time because of something. And so they're normal people who were just kind of plucked up and taken and had these unusual experiences. What can I say, but my understanding of human psychology and trauma helped me understand how to help people so that they could actually get to the root of their experiences and actually remember or recover from the trauma. Somebody understands complex trauma or complex PTSD and starts working with working with their nervous system to rebalance it and emotionally regulate and get your true human needs met, which by the way many people don't even get their real needs met and not even from the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but even even less than that. So you're talking about a lot of people if they really got their needs met, they would be at a place where they could actually process and understand and remember and be able to deal with these things. But it's almost like, you know, once you get in a vulnerable state, you're more easy prey, I think for some of these things that are happening and that they are. And there's a lot of trauma related to the alien abduction experience, as well as the my labs, which we really didn't talk about yet. But that was something that I discovered kind of coexisted with many of the people having the experiences. There was there was a human element working in conjunction with or because of the alien abduction experiences, which indicated that, well, it must be real why are they interested in following up and finding out what happened to these people because there really is an issue. So that kind of opened up a whole can of worms and a research that kind of came with a lot of smoke and mirrors and X file kind of stuff. Instead of human psychology. And I think it's unfortunate that many people who've had these unusual experiences. They can't, they don't feel comfortable just going to a regular psychologist. They don't want to go to a specialist in hypnotherapy or somebody who's in the field who's had experiences and then they start taking consultations based on their experiences, because they don't feel that they would be, you know, justly perceived and they would just be thrown on medication or something. So that's unfortunate because I know that that does happen. Again, you know, we'll just keep going down this thing and see how it goes. So it might be interesting for me to throw out kind of how I directly kind of came to you. So I interviewed this guy a couple months ago, Dr. Jason Giorgiani, he's a philosopher and was kind of a very go to guy in the field of parapsychology. But the point is, he starts pushing this idea that the near death experience and the reincarnation experience and the science associated with that is subject to interference in this extended consciousness realm. Right. So I had Jason on and I was, I wanted to push him on that a little bit and I said, well, you know, my read of the science can't really line up with that in a couple of important ways. One, the work in reincarnation science is among the most well disciplined and thorough work done by Ian Stevenson and all those people at University of Virginia. A lot of people have looked at that peer reviewed work and said that's very solid. That is not consistent with like Ted's account of all reincarnation are subject to alien kind of thing. It just doesn't fit with it. And the same with the near death experience science. I mean, where the near death experience science really takes us in a way that would directly contradict this idea of the aliens are running the show there is the stuff that is the cross cultural cross time. Look at near death experience. So you look at Dr. Gregory Shushan, trained at Oxford College of London now publishes peer review papers of, you know, 600 700 years ago all these near death experience accounts across time. And they all lead to beliefs in an afterlife belief that's relatively consistent with modern day near death experience. Plus you have the current near death experience science which would contradict a lot of what's going on. But what does come through, I think is exactly what you're talking about is the potential for there being some technological component to both of those things that is possibly being interfered with. I mean, we can't turn away from that data. But when I read some of that stuff and people are like I got it all handled and Jesus told me and reincarnation isn't real and near death experience that doesn't hold up to to scrutiny either so I'm kind of struggling with all the great information you guys are bringing in and then sorting it out in a way that is consistent with this other body of science that just doesn't seem to work its way into this work either so I know I'm laying a lot on the table here is any of that. I wish I heard of this guy because it, because I know I've had clients who have had experiences where they were recycled in an unnatural way in incarnated in bodies where they remembered I mean this actually happens a lot with the my labs and the people in the secret space program where it's as if they made a bargain in another life sometimes it's in a Nazi era, where they were high up in the SS, and we're in the occult level making oaths to these entities or something, and then or entrapped to work for them and basically promising even beyond the grave that they'll work for them, and then finding that after they died, their soul was taken and then held like in a test tube or something and then recycled into a body, and then they had recall of what they were, you know, in the Nazi era, you know, that that way and then they were my labs this time around and one of these programs. So I've had some who remembered like where they were murdered and then their soul was captured in like a lower astral realm and then recycled into another body that was put in directly into a project. So it's so the natural, maybe the natural reincarnation system would be, you know, you go up to a higher realm and then you work with higher beings that maybe you make a decision to come back. For some reason, but in some of these other experiences it's like they don't go up to the higher realms they actually get recycled from a lower astral. And then they'll they actually have more recall of the life before. And then they'll remember like in the 1940s or something. It's really strange, but that's not real common, but I've had it happen enough times where I'm thinking something has happened where they they're able to. Well, that that's the weird stuff capture the soul and transfer the soul a type of transfer of soul consciousness technology. So I'm just not, I'm not convinced that we can rely on those kind of accounts directly. But I think I want to make sure you understand where I'm coming from because we run into the exact same thing exact same thing with near death experience accounts right where there was an overall pattern there that is to a certain extent verifiable by science, you know, so the near death experience the history is these people start having near death experiences and the scientists get involved and said, wait a minute, these things are all over the board. This guy had a near death experience jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. This person had it when they were in a plane crash. This person what we need to do is study this scientifically medically. They started bringing the near death experience into the cardiac arrest ward and they go, OK, now we got it. We can basically control for the physiology. We know what happens when your heart stops. We know that the blood flow to your brain stops. We know you can't have conscious memories, let alone the most profound experience of your life. There's no way to explain that from our current neurological model. So when we do that, we bring it into the hospital and now we get the same things happening in terms of near death experience. We can go, aha, we do have reason to believe the consciousness survives bodily death. But the accounts. No, we can't really process these accounts. Like I told you, I mean, I got I got a guy who comes back and says, hey, I saw Jesus. And I said, well, you know, Christ consciousness. I get it. You know, it's a topa kind of thing. Maybe we don't know what it is, but you know, whatever. No, it was Jesus. And a matter of fact, he goes around to churches and he kind of says if you didn't see Jesus, then, you know, your NDE is probably satanic and all the rest of this nonsense. All I can say from a science standpoint is the near death experience science as a whole does not agree with Ian McCormick's wacky Christian centric idea of near death experiences. Most near death experiences like 8090% say yes, God, yes, love, yes, universal truth, but no to to religion and stuff like that. I don't even know if how much would how firm would want to be on that. But the one thing that comes through if he is do not rely on individual accounts. That's like the conversation I just had with Vinny, who is terrific. But at the end I said, and Vinny was super open, super great guy and it lives the lives the spirit of someone who's been spiritually transformed by their near death experience. But his thing is ultimately goes. Yeah, I get it. These lessons that I learned in my near death experience were Vinny's lessons for Vinny to learn not to go out and proselytize and, you know, bang Bibles on people and all the rest of this stuff. That's not how God doesn't work that way. You know, God is moving all of us along our own path in in our own way kind of thing. So do you understand? I mean, some of the accounts in the book now, Ted's account now, the Christian centered stuff, all the Christian centered stuff just the Jesus stuff is completely inconsistent from a logical basis with anything else we know about near death experience, anything else we know about continuation of consciousness near death experience, it just doesn't fit. And yet, why are we trying to jam that in there? Yeah, I'm just curious about how little research there is and I think it in the Asian and the Taoist perspective of what happens at death and the dissolution of the five elements and what happens with our consciousness and what goes to the higher realms and what goes back to our consciousness and how they perceive an NDE or when a soul comes back or when a soul is transferred. Like, there must be, you know, ways that they do this in different ways like in Oriental Medicine I studied Oriental Medicine before I got my other degree because I was, I knew there was more to this. And one of the reasons why was to try to figure out what do we not know in our western model of thinking that these other beings must know how they're affecting us and how can we apply understanding things in a different way so that we can work with this in a different way. And so incorporating let's say a Taoist model of the five elements, for example, and how that might change, you know, how they affect our consciousness. Are you familiar with the Tibetan Book of the Dead? Yes, because I was a Tibetan Buddhist for many years as a matter of fact and learned, you know, dream yoga and did many meditation retreats and, you know, so I think there must be other ways to understand this and even like the whole rainbow body thing, that there must be something that happens scientifically if there's enough of these cases where, you know, the body literally disappears except for the hair and nails and they transform and transmute into light. There's something going on there that we have yet to have I think scientific evidence in the Western world that knows what's going on there. So let me ask you, because you probably know more about this than I do and I love to learn and expand on this stuff. So you take the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which is very precise and is really just one book among a larger kind of canon they have about what's happening at this near death, at this near death time, this after death time, and this between lives time, and then this free incarnation time. So how is that, how are you squaring that with what you're hearing from people who are having these kinds of experiences. People have experiences based on their level of perception and I think actually even a practicing Buddhist who does a meditation practice and let's say lucid dreaming and dream yoga would have a better ability to have a better purity of perception. And be able to assess it from a different standpoint if you can be free of attachment and greed and fear and desire and be in this like witnessing consciousness to observe what happens. So this is actually a place where where I'm going in my research with people who do dream work and lucid dream work in order to observe how this happens in within lucidity, and then how to prevent it from happening and how to directly access what we call spiritual truth and communication and archetypal language and symbols that happen in a in a dream, and then working with that to find out how we can connect with our higher power of truth, so that we understand what's interacting with us from its, how it's being communicated through the direct truth of what our spirit is telling lucidity. And I know it's kind of like a whole jumble of words but in order to assess correctly we really need to know, let's say in the body and out of the body, and in different states of consciousness, what we're really perceiving and what we're assuming who our identity even is. So, this gets back to like really having to recover our own traumas and getting really really clear on nothing but our awareness of beingness that goes beyond even our personality. And so we can do this. And I think there are some people who do but it's not an easy place. It's not something easy to do while you're still in trauma and not getting your human needs met to even let's say meditate or pay your bills or be free of abuse, you know, but I think there's different ways to perceive this more correctly if we can have lucidity and calmness in different states of consciousness. Wow, there's there's a ton there. I've done a couple of shows on dream yoga, and as a practice exactly what you're saying, one of the gentlemen I interviewed was was just terrific. He was something mentorship of his Buddhist elder kind of guy. And what I remember I thought was really interesting. He was doing dream yoga, and he was somewhat successful at reaching these other states. And as you're saying, being detached enough to kind of observe. And then the guy goes, Okay, so now what you have to do is you have to go into the hell space. Oh, no, like, that's what he said. He said, no, no, but eventually he, you know, he built up the personal power, whatever to go there into doing that. But what I really took away was that this is these are practices that have been carried out for a long period of time. They have a lot of expertise on it and exactly the way that you're talking about and can lead people through it in a way that does seem pretty quasi scientific in a way like, Hey, just tell me what you observed, you know, kind of like a good hypnotherapist does with alien abductee. I can only go from my personal experience where I had a direct realization, which is different from an experience, a direct realization of eternal beingness that is beyond the fragment of personality identity that we have in these human moments, or even out of the body in this. So, and I knew that it was related to Christ Jesus, but it was more like a memory realization. And so that actually kept me on a trail of trying to discover what was that about and to Buddhism, more than anything else and dream yoga, and trying to understand things from that perspective, knowing that there is an eternal beingness that is our true identity and our true home, and that this is a dreaming. So we are actually dreaming this body here, like co dreaming it. So if we can get lucid in our dreaming here and our dreamings in our quote sleep dreams, we can have a clear way of perceiving what our real nature is. And that's above and beyond personality. So that's, but I knew that deep inside based on my experience. But even with, I think, Buddhist practice, I think it has a lot of value when they tell you that not to identify too strongly with the thoughts that are coming in with what you're fearing or desiring and trying to stay kind of clear and calm and then just observe the arising of what what's happening in the experience. And that I think that has great value, so that you, you start to see what's coming from your own mind what actually coming from outside your mind like other people like telepathy is real. Okay. But one thing that I did not learn from Tibetan Buddhism or advanced practices was the depth of complex trauma that happens let's say in relationships in your family of origin. That affect your ability to relate in a way where you can actually give and receive love in a way where you feel loved and you feel like you really have your true human needs met. And that is in other words relationships and relationship dynamics that are related to actually our early attachment styles, as we're raised is much more important in terms of just being able to get on with your life and having a balanced life. I feel like a real advanced yogi and meditator, and then sometimes that just makes you more dissociated, but, but when you have to go back to the real relationship stuff, or going deep into the origins of complex trauma and the identities that we created as a result of that trauma, we have to go beyond that to our eternal nature that went before our personality was even developed, even from zero years old years old to six years old. So this is where you have to go as deep as a yogi to go to your eternal nature that came into with. And then then you could transform all that crap and all that complex trauma. So you could function from a much more. I don't know enlightened place and not react to the usual triggers and won't have the same kinds of relationship patterns that you had before. Because what tends to happen is that even though people have gotten educated, they did all this trauma work, they still like they're like what I'm a narc magnet, you know, they keep running into like these narcissists or, well, they'll run into, you know, these bad relationships and they don't know why like, why does this keep happening and I know on a cognitive level. This this is not right this doesn't feel right but why does it keep happening and then kind of have to go through well what's all that about and having to get to the deep root of, you know, why these things happen and it I think it kind of goes into a little bit of karma and a little bit of understanding the spiritual forces behind what's really interacting in our lives and directing events and timelines. So that's where I've had to go in order to try to understand like well why you know to these quote love by things keep happening to people who have had abductions or they happen to be plucked out for this experimental project by these alien beings and then they keep having these certain patterns and relationships over and over again maybe until they learn something new or they bypass it in a certain way and then that that thing doesn't happen anymore and then they're off on another project or something. There's a lot deeper things and there's so much to really get into it's impossible really and I hope I'm not going to frustrate you or frustrate listeners as I try and parse through this but we'll just do the best we can. So take what you were just saying there which really gets into your main thing which is the interference in from an anomalous perspective in relationships, but I am going to want to tease it out a little bit because even if we just say, is it possible that that malevolent entities as we would typically understand them to be demons, dark forces, whatever black magic, whatever are interfering with relationships in exactly the way that you're talking about. There's a ton of people that go heck yes, I know that directly, I've talked to some of them and they said people cast spells and these other things. So whether somebody wants to go there or not, you can again look across culture and across time and these things pop up over and over and over again that you would have to be pretty hard headed close minded materialist to just take all of that and just throw it throw it to the side. So that's one class of this anomalous interference in relationships and I want you to speak to that and speak to why we would even suspect that that is happening for all the reasons that we're just talking about a minute ago. And then is the ET non human intelligence thing different because it feels to me like it's different and yet we kind of I think blend them together in a way that isn't super helpful because there's a technology component there. There's a different agenda component there. Is that a can we bifurcate that way or do they bleed over too much in ways that we don't understand. No, I think you said all of that actually is true there are definitely what would they call attached entities and demonic overlays and sometimes full on possession and I've had clients report those things to me where it would happen like the classic one would be like a reptilian lizard snake like when overshadow the lover that they're having sex with and then all of a sudden they'll see and then like shapeshift while they're having sex because it's the entity that's actually feeding on the sexual energy. So a lot of times clairvoyantly you just like actually you literally see it like in your third eye for people who are some some even normal non psychics can see it because it's is so amazing when that happens so people see things like shape so that definitely happens and the, I don't know, I mean, a lot of people are naturally psychic and so they perceive these things or paranormal activity like when somebody comes over, like after they. But if there isn't my book like let's say you start dating someone and you have this interesting attraction and you have a lot of these weird synchronicities that happen that sometimes it's mixed up with. Now it's mixed up with technology like texting and AI and all that kind of shit. I think there's a connection there but let's say after dating them and then this entity keeps visiting you that's like a demonic. Strange entity that's connected to the partner you were dating in is like a demon. And so then you have to do like a clearing and a prayer and a whatever to clear yourself from the entity you actually got from somebody you dated. And that sometimes you could see it like overshadowing like literally it's like a shadow that comes over them or their their eyes will change, or they'll have a sudden personality shift where you know you know something unnatural just happened and then it could happen when your your clock stop or your cell phone battery becomes dead and like with abductions for example we would know something happened if you know the same night, you know your cell phone battery like went dead and you had to recharge it like over and over and over again there was nothing wrong with your phone and then three light bulbs in the house burned out, like on the same night, and then on the same night, like two people in the house had the same dream that something really weird happened and then at the same time. We knew like something happened, because all these different things happened at the same time so we would start connecting the dots that, you know, electrical malfunctions cell phone batteries technologies and weird nightmares or missing time would happen, you know around the same time. So that we would know there's there's something going on and it does affect electrical equipment. We know that it could affect your health you could wake up with bodymarks and stuff so. So I believe you know these things happen based on what people report to me, and then how it feels when when you're around someone who's who's hosted. If you're an empathic person and you're like around somebody who's got an entity, you could feel it sometimes you could see it, you know and and it seems like many of the people who have had lifelong abductions. For one reason or other I'm sure Mary Rodwell might have mentioned this it's like, they're all basically psychic all these people are just they're naturally psychic. And sometimes the reason why these military groups take them is because they were already psychic as children and then they want to turn around and use them and these other projects and use them as remote viewers or psychic spies or, or whatever. And they're doing these other things clandestinely and they're hiding under some like an alien abduction. So it's through the people who've had more clairvoyant perception that they're able to see a little bit more of what's going on they just didn't get a little bit bigger picture. I think that means that they can't be deceived by the entities that are masquerading and doing things. In fact, one of the things that that I believe is like the the hugest thing that we can do to empower ourselves as humans is number one, we need to be able to recover and heal from complex trauma and truly understand online a purely human psychological and the body and the nervous system. Okay, that's real simple science. And then if we could truly recover and get what we truly need and and you know go through recovery that way that will help one level of not being vulnerable. The other level is spiritual deception, which actually blocks your ability to perceive clearly what your eternal spirit and quote the spirit of the all that is that is good would be trying to tell you. So what we noticed what was happening this is part of Dr. Corrado Malanga's research of Italy who work with abductees, and he found that these entities that are let's say, not as benevolent they. We have something that they don't have therefore they want it okay. So it's kind of like the eternal spirit battery they want. So they could live through us like parasites and just kind of put in their flash drive of consciousness mind and then live through them and have us do what they want us to do and to believe. And so they could interfere in the ability to perceive and communicate with our higher self, for example, and then be able to pretend they're our spirit guide, or there may be a past life memory we are an alien in a past life, or make us think things and have downloads and memories that really come from a different place. So this is where this is where we have to be absolutely serious and honest about wanting to connect with the most high, regardless of what we were believing before, and only the truth no matter how hard it hurts, so that we can connect with the most high and have that show us so that we could receive the truth, and then be able to perceive how that comes to us in our unique way to show us what the truth is about anything going on in our life. And then the spirit does come through in many miraculous ways. It doesn't matter I don't think it doesn't doesn't matter your faith. And I think the more faith you have in something good, the more it can communicate with you and actually show you what's going on. And so that's that's the way to go you have to be really honest and not want to believe in something that feels good because it makes you feel popular or whatever the channel messages are, but just be completely honest and open about the absolute truth no matter what it is, so that you could receive it in from your own internal natural resources to the connection to your eternal spirit. And that's where where we need to go with it that's when we find the truth. That's what I believe. I love that. I love so many things about that. I'm challenged though with some of that in terms of like when you jump in and say you know they live through us. It's some kind of harvesting of energy and stuff like that. But we don't know that. I don't think we know that and I can understand that that is your experience from, you know, working with these people. But again, I keep coming back to the tagline or the ethos of skeptico is inquiry to perpetuate doubt. I think doubt is a spiritual thing. I think that greater love light truth that we know is there doesn't want us to be certain certainty is for something else is for another realm another realm of knowing when everything is known in that other realm. That's what people tell us from that other realm is I knew everything. I couldn't even ask a question and the answer came into my head, and then I was put back down in this time space reality and not so much of knowing everything. But where I was trying to go with that and you did take us there is that if we want to look at malevolent entities in this extended consciousness realm. We have a lot of anthropological support for that. We can go look at all these cultures where they'll tell you exactly the kind of stories you're talking about from the shamanic experience, going over in the shamanic dream and having always it's always serpents or it's crocodiles or it's whatever, and they're coming in and they're interfering. They'll have spells being cast on people to break up lovers or to bring lovers together. All the stuff you're talking about is there in the shamanic traditions with no ET overlay on it. So that makes me wonder, should we be considering that without ET, without non-human intelligence, and what does that tell us about non-human intelligence? And the other thing, because I like to throw so many things on the table all at once, is I don't think Mary Rodwell would come down on the same side you guys do in terms of these beings being all negative. She sees a lot more positive beings in the non-human intelligence realm, and what she does is kind of say, the MyLab stuff is, she's kind of, she's, if you will, to me, a little bit too much, segmenting all the negative stuff. Oh, that's all MyLab, which I don't think makes, I don't think makes sense, but I don't think it makes sense to say, oh, this is all dark, you know, this is everything that ET is doing is all dark. There's too much genuine spiritual experiences that people are having there. There's some of it. There's healing, which is hard to kind of see in any other way as helping people get on with their life. There's a lot of negative stuff, which you're pointing out, and I don't want to gloss that over, but I'm trying to kind of paint a landscape that's more complex that isn't so siloed, which is what I see happening all over the place. I think the Hegelian dialectic that they always get, there's always like a polarization to try to make it simple and, you know, it's either this or that and I kind of understand that. But one of the things that was a problem with people that had come to me or in the early days, let's say people who are in these super soldier projects like the Montauk boys and even some of the earlier secret space project. They called it special unacknowledged access projects or whatever, but many of them had trauma and gosh so much trauma and programming but different beings having interacted with them, as well as human military and these secret projects. And then when they discovered what was going on with them, they would search the ends of the earth, you know, going to Nepal and Tibet and going to different yogis and gurus and, and, you know, begging for help and asking for help and trying to do exorcisms and it's like, nobody could help them and they were like, sorry, this is your karma. And they were really a lot of people were, they were shunned and not understood. And it, and it made me wonder like wait a minute here. There's these people claiming that they're frigging gurus, and they know all about enlightenment, and they can't help one of these people one of these projects, they don't their religion is missing something. That made me question. There's some kind of intelligence or a force. That's what I call it enabling the predator parasite programming within religions and certain spiritual narratives and traditions that are missing something really, really important. And I know that one of the simple things they're missing is they're bypassing the real importance of recovering from complex trauma, even from just a simple psychological level, but somehow they're not dealing with the attached entity business, and they're not able to truly deal with that effectively, even with their own faith, because there's some things been omitted in terms of their thoroughness of understanding of how things work. Well, what about the whole samskara stuff you're familiar with the yoga tradition and a lot. I mean doesn't to me when you say that it's like. Evie that is exactly the practice of the release of the samskara you know is that you can create the example I always love is I first heard from a Mickey singer, the untethered soul which is a super popular book and a western guy, but he was like, to me is like right out of your practice and working with people is I'm driving down the road, and I see this blue Corvette go by, and there's my girlfriend with this guy. And they're just having a good old time and they're making out and they're all this stuff. And I'm like, you know, boom, I just go off. And then later I come to understand that. No, that wasn't my girlfriend. It just looked like my girlfriend. But every time I see a blue Corvette. Boom, my body just goes off and I have this flood of emotions. So from a yoga perspective they'd say well you have a samskara, there is God's energy that's flowing through you and you've blocked it in a way. And you've probably blocked it in a million ways, including stuff that you came in with that you weren't even responsible for. But they would explain that in a very direct way and they'd say, here's how you release those, but get ready because you got a million of them to release so it's a, you know, you're not going to get through them all. But you're going to, to me, that is a direct parallel with exactly what you're saying. And I think it makes a lot of sense is that complex trauma and then how to release that and that that is nurturing our inner true spirituality and connection with the source. So I'm totally down with that part of it. What do you see is lacking from it? And couldn't we find that in the mystical Christian tradition in the Buddhist tradition in the, okay, go ahead. Well, yeah, I mean, I believe that there is a deeper tradition of those who really, I don't know, you can call it people who really have the Holy Spirit, or or they really have a deeper connection because their perception opens up so that they're not blinded by their own preconceived notions or dogmatic ways of perceiving. It's like, you know, well, the Taoist would call it spontaneous wisdom. And the Christians would call it the Holy Spirit and it, the Holy Spirit is usually imbued with love and mercy, but it could also give you spontaneous wisdom of the direct perception of what's going on with this person and knowing what it just shows you what's going on. And I think the same thing happens with people who are really connected. And then it gives them insight into how to proceed in life and how to maybe help people if they're open. But that that's not always easy. Like one of the difficulties that I've run across with many people, they have once they uncovered, let's say the dark underbelly of what, you know, secret societies are the ones controlling the, let's say the dark side of the earth, if they want to keep it secret and they don't want you to know the whole thing, and then you bring up too much attention or influence on a certain aspect of the ufology, for example, then you become a targeted individual. And so what happens with targeted individuals, sometimes it's technology, sometimes it's direct, you can relate it to a human, you know, then doing stuff to your bank account or their gang stalking you and there's a whole, there's a whole thing with that but there's a whole technology that's related to very advanced technologies that it could actually explain a lot of some of the alien and my lab stuff that people think are coming from aliens. So that there are technologies that could affect you on very deep and even spiritual levels now that's being employed to try to prevent people from bringing to light. And that's not the truth, or, you know, different aspects so that people could wake up to actually have solutions to what the problems are, so that there are forces that are trying to prevent people but then that's what I run across is like people who are who are actually being targeted and they're trying to get out from under it and working through all these quote psychological ways of doing that but but it ain't working because maybe there's so there's something else that we don't know. We're finding out more all the time. And, and I think that's good. So, yeah, and it's super important work, and you're bringing a lot forward that we definitely need to get out there and sort through and process. I know I've kind of pushed back in a lot of ways. But I also want to at the same time as I said in the beginning, kind of connect this with the normie world in a way that helps us see how completely ridiculous. It is at the same time, because, you know, we have disclosure, which is like an unbelievable. Well, it's a fake, it's a fake disclosure. It's a very limited hangout disclosure. But I mean who you've been at this for long enough and I have to not to the extent that you have but who would have ever thought that the New York Times would run the story and say, here they are. Here's the video. And you know that the Senate, the Congress would say, hey, we have to start looking at this because we do have these. There is an orchestrated manipulative, but there is a kind of disclosure that makes it undeniable. And yet at the same time, when we look at the people who are our public intellectuals and, you know, I love Lex Friedman and I listened to his show but he talks about this like there is no disclosure. And he has Avi Lopram Harvard on and he talks about anomalous things, but they pretend like they haven't seen the tic-tac videos. It's like, what are we trying to do? What is going on here? For a lot of us, we're kind of like, you know, what game is being played? The other thing I would connect it to and I want to get into this as well with you is the MK Ultra stuff is super important to this and it's been outed. I mean, I sent you the link to Annie Jacobson's book. I mean, Annie Jacobson has 10 million views with Rogan. She pulls up way short with her book. It's a limited hangout kind of thing, but give her credit. It is the most thorough explanation of the whole MK Ultra project starting with Puherec and his talking to the 9th and the council and you get all the ET stuff is in there as well. But then she brings it up to date with in terms of the mind control stuff. It's well freaking documented. So anyone who's coming at this from a normie perspective and calling into question anything that you just said needs to go read that freaking book because it's all right there and for you. It's like, hell, yes, we were doing that. We're doing every kind of mind control imaginable. And it wasn't just giving people LSD. It was Manchurian candidate, but it was also demonic. Let's bring in the demonic guy. Let's see what we can do. Let's do dissociative identity disorder by on demand. You know, I interviewed Whitley Strieber a couple times. That is his experience, you know, being recruited into an Air Force program for gifted children because his debt and going in there and seeing the kids in Faraday cages and they're cutting rabbits heads off and saying, if you ever say any of this and kind of traumatize me doing this, this shit is all over the place in terms of document. Yeah, that's the my lab thing where I mean it's trauma based mind control taken to all these other levels of interacting in and out of time and they really are doing these things, which is the reason why we need to understand how trauma affects the brain and how to restore our balance and then actually have more abilities than we would have if we hadn't had that. Actually, they're what they're doing. I know it sounds nuts, but they're activating what they call the meta gene. And I guess that's just a term whether or not it's real, but they'll traumatize a lot of people sometimes killing them because they work with many. Right. I mean these are the black projects they'd never want you to know about. And then they try to get some to activate like an ability to do things like supernatural abilities like the X men kind of thing like by locating or, you know, popping in and out of time or doing whatever and then certain people can do these things when they're pushed to certain traumas of dissociation and then they have these abilities pop out but they can only do it during certain triggers. So the whole idea with a lot of these Montauk boys and these people who realized they were in these secret space programs is to recover and integrate their traumas, release the demonic and all the icky mind control triggers and restore their true and natural real abilities that they have, and then start using it for the good and start helping others and that's what they're trying to do. I mean, in that last part, that's what who is trying to do. This has been going on for a long time, actually. Well, I mean, has it been going on for 788,000 years I think it has I interviewed Bruce Fenton and he shows kind of a genetic record and so shows technosignatures or, you know, look at the same thing with the MK ultra project part of it is the whole thing and the remote viewing thing. And if you look at those guys when they were remote view Mars, they see people over there. I don't know if they're us or if they're non human intelligences from extra treasures. But this is a million years ago, right. And if you go look at Dr. John Brandenburg and the nuclear bomb trace elements in the isotopes from Mars. He's a astrophysicist, he's solid guy, you know, he's very published period papers on that. I think the time. The other thing that kind of irks me a little bit is when we kind of want to compress the time frame down say what about Roswell that's when this started. Now what if it started a million years ago what if it started 750,000 years ago with ongoing genetic manipulation, the whole way isn't that how. Why would why wouldn't it be that way so when I hear you know, Cory good, who now has outed himself as, you know, not telling the truth and his deposition or whatever, or any of this other recent stuff. I have a hard time, kind of really focusing on that is like okay this is it you know buckle up it's all happening right now. I mean, what do you think. Well, I know that these projects are happening, and many people don't go public and they prefer not to. So, I don't, I know that there's something going on, and there has been for a long time though. I mean, we're just in our current era of technology and culture that's just taken it to the degree that it's going. But I think this has been going on for thousands of years through ancient family lines and cults and that kind of thing. From ancient Egypt and who knows maybe Atlantis and some of these other Lemuria. I think these things have been going on for a long time with the same kinds of beings that they're connecting with to work through certain human groups and doing the same kinds of things maybe they weren't as technologically the same. But then again maybe they were maybe they were even more so. Well, that's why you know the question for me for a while has been, and I really pushed Mary on this and I love she gave me a really concise answer to, but my kind of cheeky question is, does ET have an NDE. Does ET have a life review. And so I had to ask her that a few times she goes, well, well, yeah, she goes I remember doing a regression with a gentleman who went to a past life where he was ET, he was from another planet. And he remember he remembered just kind of decimating this culture, which was just kind of a primitive culture. And he went in and they just, you know, kind of wiped it out and did all the stuff that we know from our historical past, you know, has happened, both by us, but also seems to have been reported in their lore as happening from other entities that came in and did this. And he's identifying with this and he's having a very hard time dealing with this because it wasn't a conscious memory had, but it came up under regression. And as you know, people want to poo poo regression. But when you really push on the evidence for regression, it's highly, highly significantly verifiable. And people can bring recover memories not in all cases. It can be, you know, misused, but it can be a real tool for memory. But anyways, the point back to that is she says, yes, ET does have an NDE. To me, that is my only way I can understand the hierarchy of consciousness is that because the central most salient point of the near death experience is more than anything else is one. It's about love. It's about connection and people don't go fishing for that. If you just go and look at the accounts, that's what they say overwhelmingly over 90%. But the other thing is that you will be judged. You will be judged. There is a right and wrong. There is a moral imperative and you will be judged, but you will be the judge. Your soul will be the judge of your actions, your deeds. That's what comes through from the near death experience science. So that's why to me, the most relevant question is, is ET going through that same cycle? I believe from what I've seen is that I suspect that ET is ET is in the school of life, whatever that is, broader than just down on this planet. And to me, that makes the whole thing seem a lot different than to think it's some kind of Gnostic war against good and bad, but good doesn't really have an upper hand. We don't know who's going to come out. The near death experience science kind of tells us something different. Kind of tells us, hey man, the light is a billion times more powerful, more meaningful than the dark, but you're going to play out this little drama down here. That's okay. It's part of the school. It's part of the thing, but you're all going to be advancing based on what you're able to do down here. So I laid a ton on the table there. What are some of your thoughts? Well, I mean, who could, I mean, when people have these experiences, I can't question them. I think love is really important and maybe having a perspective of how we affect others and our different existences is important. But one of the things that Dr. Karatomalanga brought to light in his research was that the beings that he called the beings that were the more malevolent ETS, I guess, he claimed that they did not have the eternal spirit or anima that we had and that they could exist in time and space, but they were temporal. So they would have to kind of borrow and attach on to us and use our eternal spirit to live through us in whatever capacity they wanted. So they're kind of like piggybackers. So part of the process to prevent them from interfering was to release them and they had to stay back in the temporal realm while we connected with our eternal spirit and then worked with our eternal spirit to get rid of that which is truly not us. So if it was an attached thing that really is not us or originally us, then then it would go back to its origin and not bother us anymore. So part of his theory. And this is what I believe with respect to those that are what I call the narcissist who create chaos and drama and feed on negative or a lot of emotion. They're obviously doing something to feed on and we see that a lot with certain entities that they attach and they feed on negative or positive emotions and that where they create a lot of chaos. So they tend to why do they have to do that what are they not connected to that they have to feed on someone else. And I don't think predation is normal. I don't think predation is a normal state of being, but in this realm, it is. But I think that where we come from eternally, predation and parasitism is not even like a thing. I think it's something here because there's beings who need something that we have and they're just going to take it and that's just what they're doing and that's how I see a lot of it. The ones that have a malevolent effect and that they draw up all this energy and drama and chaos. And then when you release them it's like I then you feel peace that you're like it's just not an issue anymore. So I have to ask that question and that comes to me the good and evil is like evil would be something that wants to create a lot of misery and chaos and feed on that negative energy and actually have a malicious intent or not care at all about how they affect you. That to me is evil, or just so ignorant or like a machine or something. I don't know. So I don't know, but I think the ones that are good, that they would be eternal also and they're just going through an existence and an experience and learning from it like we are. Well, I was with you there and then you kind of threw me at the end. So where how are you understanding these extended realms as it relates to you know because in this conversation we've kind of and I'm not being I'm not being critical because I think we there's so much, you know, are we how are we to understand these extended conscious realms? Is there such a thing as lower realms? What does that even mean? We see that through in many, many cultures and they talk about us. How close are we to these lower realms? Are there such a thing as higher realms? Are there some higher realms that are closer to us than other realms? What would that even mean? Then if we start talking about different phenomena that we talk about experience, you know, out of body travel, where are we going? The dream yoga when he says go to those realms. Here they are. Here's the directions. Here's the roadmap. Where are they? E.T. Where is E.T. What, you know, so I think we got to pin this down a little bit more and I'm interested in what your read of it is. Well, I think I don't know. I just think there's good ones and bad ones and the bad ones are like narcissistic and parasites and predators or like machines and they they're amoral or like amoral. They don't like they don't care. They're just doing a job and it's like their program and a lot of them kind of act like it's just a program. You know, they're just doing what they're doing because they have to do it and it's their job. They don't really care how it affects you. But my sense is that if somebody really has any mortal, eternal spirit and they're living an experience, they're eventually going to to learn and not have to be predators and parasites. So when someone when someone does recover their trauma like a human, we really go through recovery and you connect with your spirit and you like release the grief and the joy and the compassion of your natural spirit comes back in a sense of peace and goodness and harmony comes back. And so that's a restoration of your original nature without the trauma. Evie, we have met the enemy and it is us. We have met the Nazis. It is us. The pictures that Abu Ghraib are still burned in all our memories of, you know, let's do enhanced interrogation of people. This is great. Let's get them to do all sorts of weird sexual stuff. Let's abuse people. This is our government. Everything we've done. This is the the history I always point out is slavery, you know, let's have enslaved these people, rape these kids. Let's go to church and come home and go, oh, it's okay. And then how, how are we not in absolutely in the middle of this? And at the same time, we identify with I want you on that wall. I need you on that wall because I don't want the Chinese marching in here and telling me that, you know, whatever illusion I have of self determination and free will is out the window and it should all be for the state either. So there's a lot of complexity here that kind of gets swept under the rug with some of this stuff. Yeah. Well, the I see where it swept under the rug. And I see problems with like feeding the predator parasite programming the enablers. And so, why are they not seeing that they're enabling the predators. Why are they not aware of this. It's sometimes it's it's a perplexing question like, Well, how come you can't see this. How come you can't see the harm you're doing when you're doing that. It's like, why are people blind? Sometimes you have to ask that question. Do you know the Michael Aquino story? Do you know Michael is Colonel Michael Aquino? He's dead now. He's dead now. I mean, he was a Satanist pedophile. I mean, at least that's what the government concluded when they finally let him go, but they weren't able inside the our judicial system or the military judicial system to ever convict him or anything. That is who we are. You know that that is us. That is our democracy is Satanist Colonel Michael Aquino, who's a pedophile and is respected among his super soldier peers in the military. I don't I don't know how we get out of that without going spiritual in a way that is transcends all this or we're the center of the story and it's all about us and it can't be all about us. It has to be bigger than that. Well, there are malevolent groups that control and through trickery and mind control and spiritual deception to prevent us from perceiving the whole thing. And then when you do, you're alone for a while and get targeted. Sometimes I kill you, then sometimes other people kind of wake up to and I just think it reminds me of the Anne Rand movie Atlas shrugged and I don't know why but that movie stuck with me on the end where I guess it was John Gault had a statement that you know what he said all along that, you know, don't ever allow them to steal the fire of your spirit, which is, you know, the spirit of invention, individuality to get ahead to strive for excellence, and not allow the program it's like the program to basically feed the predator in the parasite and then let everything else go to shit because, well, we're just going to allow them to do and be what they do and we'll feel sorry for them and not see what's really happening with the overall of this whole scheme. So let's just escape and create another world and just like, sorry, we're going elsewhere. So sometimes I wonder if that's what some groups have done or some secret yogis who have all these like phenomenal abilities or go hide now. They're like, they're off the radar. They don't want to go and argue and be on the disclosure panel and play that game for freaking 30 years and find out where that goes. You know what I mean? I mean, I didn't know what you mean, but isn't that part of the personal development and education process too? I mean, because that goes, that's another part of the recovery process, isn't it? When you say complex trauma is how do I deal with these people who all over the board? As you, again, folks, you will get a lot out of these books if you read them. They are challenging. The material will seriously, fundamentally rattle your paradigm, but we all need that on a regular basis. We need to tell the truth though. I think part of the process is we can't run away and just like, okay, I'm done with this place. They're not going to listen, right? So I'm just leaving and create another world or Shambhala or something. But I think part of our process, even people who've gone through 12 step programs or recovery or witnessing doing their testimony and witness for Jesus, whatever it is, there comes a point where we need to tell the truth and express ourselves for what our truth is and find meaning and belonging in that process. We heal as a result of being able to tell the truth as we understand it as we're learning the whole way. And I think we always need a connection with another human being or more to express our truth safely. And I think that's a real important part of recovery when we can create that safety to express whatever that experience is without feeling we're going to be ridiculed or killed. That's an awesome point. And let's talk a little bit about the flip side of that too, which is the after effects, proselytizing kind of stuff because this is a real issue. I don't know if you're aware of it, but in the near death experience research, right? So again, what I love about the near death experience research is there's a scientific angle of it where we say, okay, physiologically this defies explanation. Our neurological models are out the window now, but now let's go look at the accounts. And then like we talked about, if you go look cross culture and you go look in India and you say, oh my God, these people are having this basically Samadhi experience. They're kind of waking up and they're all about God and love and some fantastic things are happening, including some paranormal psychic things, but they're also filled with the Holy Spirit or whatever. And the people in India will go, okay, yeah, what we need to do is kind of take care of them over here, put them, you know, go feed them, you know, keep pat them on the head and six months later it'll kind of settle down and they'll kind of come back and can rejoin society. This is like the traditional kind of Indian thing. Well, the near death experience, because there's a technological component of that, which we'll talk about in terms of MK ultra because it's so important but with near death experience it's resuscitation. We are now resuscitating people bring him back from the dead in greater numbers. What does that mean in terms of people having these experiences, but people have these experience and they do higher divorce rates and kind of depression and suicidal ideation and all this other is higher much higher than normal, because it is this spiritually transformative experience and that rattles people's lives. So you are I'm sure all over this in your work, but speak to that for a minute in terms of feeling your truth, embodying your truth, but at the same time, finding a way to integrate into, you know, our social structure in a way that isn't going to totally screw up your life. That's the big. Yeah. I mean that's the hard part. I get if you've had a profound experience where you, let's say realize something that's out of the norm of the bell curve of the population for what they believe is reality. It makes you feel alone and isolated for a time unless you could basically find your own kind or your own tribe and get the social relational support to be with at least some mutual understanding and that that's a big, a big thing that makes people depressed when they find out. I think it like the narc abuse recovery, for example, is a big it's a good parallel to use and it's something that a therapist named Ross Rosenberg does with his a 12 step recovery from self love deficit disorder but basically people found out who were who were like married or had partners that were like narcissistic personality disorder, you know, like it's the worst kind of relationship you can have but but it's like a magnet syndrome of unresolved complex trauma on both ends that's like two sides of the same coin. So once you let's say it's the codependent and that tends to get into recovery because they're the ones that hurt the most and the other, the other ones really don't get well which is actually a worse curse when you think about it but once you start getting well and you start realizing the truth and quit gaslighting yourself and quit doubting yourself and recover your identity and you know release the grief. Then there's like a stage of like kind of being suspended in a no man's land of like losing 75 to 80% of your friends. And then like trying to find start dating again when you're just really afraid you're going to attract another one of those and, and just having to to start all over again from knowing that you're going to lose a lot of family connections and friend connections and maybe some jobs and that's that's the part where you really have to get through that and start building connections with your own kind that have that level of understanding and then start building from that place. But the isolation is really hard. You know, top it off with like my labby people for example, or people have been through love bites. It's not only the isolation that you can have from the standard psychological thing but sometimes you know they try to kill you. They do murder your mentors they, they make you sick they poison you they give you cancer they financially they you get targeted you turn into a targeted individual. And this is the real test this is like okay you have to be a super yogi enlightened being to start dealing with this shit now. Because this is the place we're going to have to be to really overcome all these things so that we can go to the next level, so that when humanity really starts waking up and realizing what's been kind of running the show and keeping me down. They're going to be really pissed. They're going to be going through a lot of trauma, and they may not come out of it unless they have somebody there for them. I mean I'm a. I think most people can't handle the truth, to be honest, I mean if they really knew like the like the deep deep stuff like the secret space program and the real entities and like the real the real weird woo woo stuff. Most people just could not handle it so. So if that is a bridge too far for a lot of people. I think we need to connect it to. What we already know is kind of happening, like with targeting people. We already have documented proof that they're targeting people in all sorts of ways, but in particular in the. You know, the, I guess I want to break that down from kind of the kindergarten level of the my lab stuff, and we kind of touched on it with Whitley Striever. But the other way to to approach it is to say, well, why wouldn't the military industrial complex the alphabet soup agencies as everybody say, why wouldn't they want to know what is going on with people who have had these contacts even alleged contacts. So what you would want to do is you will want to get these people and you'd want to talk to them. And you would want to talk to them in a way that doesn't reveal that you what you know. And we actually have evidence of this I mean, Richard Dodie was outed for doing this with Paul Benowitz. It's out. Yeah, I remember that movie. And the only thing they did is they did it before disclosure. So they hit it as, Oh, he must have seen a stealth bomber. Well, no, he didn't see a stealth bomber. We all know now that disclosure, we know that he saw what he saw. So if that is a bridge too far, kind of walk it back a little bit. And how, how would you get a normie to understand this idea of targeting and this idea of you being someone who they could have a special interest in and could cause havoc and interfere with someone's life. I mean, well, I mean, gosh, I don't know if it helps to tell like wine about it all the time. Once you know your, your targeted individual, it doesn't help like socially to like tell people that like it's better just to not say anything and try to connect on like normal levels of like walking your dog and going to park and gardening together and cooking together and just reducing your life to actually simplicity of connecting on like real natural, easy levels. And just working on increasing your, your love for one another and for people to treat each other with kindness and just focus on that. So that if you can build that quality that can overcome the, the malevolent effects of some of the targeting. And this is what some people that I know who could perceive things in different ways it's as if there's a technology that's overlaying humanity. We can call it like the theosophist Rudolph Steiner people called it the offer man, which is a almost like a machine like contractual malevolent controlling evil machine like a moral force that can move in and around and create chaos and as if it, you know, it has a program. So it's like it's automated once they have your frequency you're on this automated program for shit to happen but it happens in clusters and waves, and it operates almost like a, like a machine. So if you could figure out how to bring light into that into your consciousness and the people you're with to just basically create cracks of light and awareness to break up those clouds those psychic clouds. And you can be as influenced by those when you're when you're in one of those clouds. When they're targeting you because it's like it's almost like a, we call them like dark astral blobs, where it's like oh no, I feel another one coming you know and then then for the next few hours you're like oh my god, I did just threw me one you know, and and then trying to bring light so that you don't react, and you pull in light and then all of a sudden things just shift and change so it's like you have to change your patterns and habits of thinking and believing. And regardless of that wave that happened through whoever it happened through not to blame them, because they're just being part of it. It's like, I don't know to blame them. It is just because they're, they're, they're part of it there it's their consciousness it's hard to explain, but I think our own light and our own awareness and our own intentions could create cracks in that so that we actually start creating our reality and we start dreaming and they can't, they can't. It's like they're infecting our dreaming reality process with stupid ass shit programs that we don't want that's coming in through different perceptual windows, but they're able to do it more easily and and if we could manage to pull those out and not have those enter our reality creation mechanism in our dreaming, then we can smooth more clearly in and around all this stuff and just basically nobody even knows who you are. They don't have to know who you just do it. Wonderful, we keep coming back. I keep coming at it from an evidential scientific kind of prove it kind of thing because I think that's an important truth for people to get and then you keep flipping it to the therapeutic. No, no, don't apologize. No, it's, it's, it's beautiful. And I hope that in this kind of heresy jerky conversation people can understand that if you're at a place where what he was saying resonates at all. In terms of anomalous trauma, we haven't even talked about the relationship stuff, but I guess we've touched on it. If that resonates at all in that, you know, my relationship seems to have anomalous trauma associated with it, whether it's, you know, not demonic or a benevolent or I was part of, I was part of a wick a group or you know I was practicing Satanism or black magic and next thing you know, I've talked to people like this again, you know, you'll talk to them and they'll say they have these things going going on. And then you go, well, you know, well, I guess we did do these kind of occult practices, you know, that's like, Oh, really, do you do you think Anyways, I don't want to go too far field. If that it all resonates with you, as with you know we haven't kind of done the full bifurcation with the alien contact, contactee and is that evil benevolent or is it just somebody doing their job you know on sector six planet whatever. If that resonates at all. I think you get a sense that this person who I'm talking to you today has walked this walk and might be able to help you and that's what you do you try and help people. Number one with support right both one on one support and group support. How does that work. Really it's what people come to me for sessions I usually work with zoom or phone. And then it's really sometimes just to tell me what's going on with them, because they need some kind of confirmation or to figure out what what's really happening. And then oftentimes I could do a guided hypnotherapy to do deeper work, or, or sometimes to do a group where we do dream work we start working with dreams, as a way of healing and getting greater insights and working with the dreaming mechanism and really assessing perception on a whole different level. So I work with individuals and groups, and mostly zoom though, online. That I guess leads into one of the parts of the book that I really appreciate it because so few people talk about it as directly as you do even though you just touch on that's a tiny part of the book is the deception element. And there's so many parts to that. There is definitely, in my opinion, and I think it's just very hard to argue this. We are being run through a misinformation disinformation program constantly and it's constantly evolving and it's incredibly sophisticated and you know I just mentioned to you like the Lou Elizondo thing you know, Lou Elizondo. He's a counterintelligence agent. That's what it says on his freaking card. And yet, he's on 60 minutes he's on the history channel. He's promoting the narrative on disclosure. And that's like a small tiny example from your world, but it's so clear and I mentioned some other ones in this thing. So you talk about that kind of deception, that kind of programming that's being thrown at us all the time to kind of knock us off kilter and to make it harder for us to integrate with other people when we say, Hey, you know this is true and they go, Oh no, didn't you hear I just read this. Then there is also and I want you to talk about this too, there is the self deception. Now, I don't know how you deal with that because you're a people helper, and somebody comes for you, therapeutically, they don't need you saying, you know, you're probably kind of diluting yourself a little bit here, but that is in play too. So, how do you deal with those two aspects of deception, and then how do we find discernment through all that. I mean, for me, direct realization of your eternal nature is always the best gold standard, you know, to launch from, but sometimes we don't have that and I found that the sermon is directly related to or say inversely proportional to the amount of trauma you've had. So the more trauma we've had, that means the more self disconnection we have from our eternal nature in our heart, because you know we don't want to remember all those icky feelings and memories so we have to like stay in the head and live in the illusion. And that takes away your discernment so we always have to reconnect to create discernment, but I think there is a level of ethics where you really have to have a pure heart of goodness to allow truth to come through, because if you really don't have a good intention, and you don't want to hide your stuff and not feel and know the truth then you'll be easily deceived and spiritual manipulation is some of the worst and I've seen this. This is why I know it's true and I'm basically a Christian because of what I've seen, but let's say the high level deceivers. You're talking about high level spiritual beings who could masquerade as wonderful ascended masters, and they could do these twin flame things to elevate your Kundalini, they can give you accurate information, they can give you psychic information to lead you on a certain way, and then they will confirm with their bona fides that everything's going to go fine as long as you follow their way and and you really believe that it's true and have this kind of spiritual arrogance but you challenge it, because they actually led someone astray and I learned this from people who went to psychics and taros or even eating or this or that, and they led them to the to the friggin love bite, that was like hosted by a demon, and told them it was their twin flame, and it led them into this like horrible relationship that was, well who is this hierarchy giving them psychic information when they're leading them down that road. I'm going to jump in because I've kind of sidestepped the whole love bite thing, and it's central to what you do. And let's just tackle it here two hours in around this. But the reason I think it really resonates and it's awesome. So awesome. And I know it seems like I'm pushing on you really hard but I think your work is so important. And that's why I guess I'm pushing to kind of tidy up some of what I see is kind of the loose ends there. Why would an entity that was trying to manipulate control in all these ways we're talking about, why would they focus on relationships? Well, that's the biggest loose feed. The sexual energy is life force energy and emotional energy is a big feed. So you get more energy and you feel more life through a relationship emotions and especially sexual energy like Tantric sexual Kundalini that's like the super wow, whatever right. So a lot of these beings that that's where they go right for it and they'll they'll activate your Kundalini and they'll make you think that you know you met your twin flame or you get set up in certain situations and then you find out later that oh my God, you know that was like a manipulation and then I'm drained and I was led down a path that I thought was true and then I found out that this guru is like totally manipulating all these people but he still has like these magical powers because he's pulling it off other people's life and it's like wow you know how come I didn't see this how come all these people didn't see that how come my perception was like what happened why didn't we perceive those spiritual predators that's my big question is like how come we didn't see those spiritual predators how come we weren't warned about them and how come we have narratives and religions that are enabling those friggin predators continue doing what they're doing. Those are all good questions that the other kind of related answer, if you will, and it comes right out of those questions is that if you had advanced intelligence, either non human intelligence on the spiritual realm or non human intelligence on the ET realm. We don't even know what those two mean and how they're different so we're just kind of playing with wordsmith there. But what I hear you saying is this is where you'd go. I mean if you're just going to kind of, if you or I were sitting in the role of these benevolent beings and we say okay, how do we get this done? Where do we go? Do we go money? Oh let's go money and another guy says oh no no no let's go over here let's go you know greed and then the guy says scroll all that here's where you go. You go right here. You go sexual. You go relationship. You go emotion. And everyone goes ah of course you're right that's where we go. All the rest of the stuff. You know what I mean? That is the that is the answer is if you're an advanced intelligent intelligence this is where you would wind up going. They would they would traumatize people multi generationally and then give them lies about God or light and they would gaslight you so that when you felt bad about them treating you like shit. You know you would you wouldn't believe yourself anymore and you would say oh it must be me. But particularly with this relationship thing on a kind of on a sub project level like if you look at MK ultra they have all these projects and sub projects. I mean a major sub project would be exactly the kind of stuff you're talking about in the book. Let's kind of pit these two people against each other in a sexual relationship. Let's get these people involved. Let's you would you would just absolutely do that it would why would it be so powerful. Yeah, they keep people at each other with chaos in the relationships and unresolved trauma so that people hurt one another and get fight one another when really there's somebody else pulling the strings and feeding off of all of that. So that's why you go back to simplistic if we can go back to simplistic teachings of, you know, honoring and loving one another as much as we can so that their power to cause us to get in fights and to hurt one another is not as powerful. When they really target you when someone's hungry or when someone, you know, lost a place to live someone lovingly will take them in and help them find a job instead of leaving them there out on the streets to just then for themselves. We really have to love each other more. You know, it's hard. It's, it's, it's, I just feel like this has been going on for a very, very long time because the, the poverty of, you know, like women and children and human trafficking and the abuse and the, you know, I know in the patriarchal religions like it was always the orphans and the widows that the whole of the New Testament people, like the whole of their job was like helping orphans and widows what the hell, what problem is that. Why are there so many orphans and widows in the first place? This is what my question was, why are they making them believe in the devaluation of women and children to begin with that causes that problem all the time. So they're spending all their time doing the religion to help the women and the children, but it never gets resolved. Well, that's, that's because religion is, is, and always has been a social engineering project, first and foremost, and that's the problem I have with Christianity. If you go and look at the history, and if you read Josephus, the Roman slash Jewish historian, he lays out Josephus war the Jews 4.5.6. He lays bare the social engineering operation only it was first to the Jews, you know, it's like, hey Titus is really the Messiah, all the Jewish people like me, we should realize that, you know, he's really it. Well, then they just pull the same thing with Jesus on the next thing with, with Constantine and that whole thing it's just, it's very effective and why wouldn't you do that. Why wouldn't you, if I want to control a population, do I want to really go in there with weapons and arms and march my troops. If I can just say, hey, it's, this is it, this is the book just follow the book, we're all under the same thing. If I can control you that way, it's just the much more efficient way to do it. I don't know to me it isn't even that difficult to understand what's hard to understand is why, but this is the super big spiritual question. Why is God allowing this to play out, you know, why is and I resist the idea that, and I was going to say this before, I resist the idea that God needs our help in any of this, you know, God needs our help. We got our soldiers and just doesn't that just doesn't square, you know, somehow I'm on some kind of soul journey. I need to find truth. I need to be the embodiment of that truth. I need to grow and all the rest of that I get. The idea that I need to go strike down some, you know, evil being, you know, it just doesn't logically it doesn't add up to how that could work and I kind of feel like you're coming from a slightly different place on that. I think, well what what moved me the most was actually discovery of how narcissistic abuse really works, and how it's enabled in our culture and society, and and how to truly recover from that what we really need to be and do. And that, that to me moved me more even than learning about alien abductions. It was just another form of, let's say narcissistic abuse and mind control and spiritual deception to take our resources. And then gaslight us into thinking it's like all our fault there's something wrong with us but if we really reconnect with our true essence. We find ways to get around like basically with narcissists, you don't really fight them directly, you tell them what they are they just they're like what do you call it pigs in a pig pen they're always better at fighting and and turning around on you and they just met they're just better at, you know, doing what they do so it's like gray rocking, you ignore them you don't give them your attention, you just kind of move around it and you basically have to accept your losses, you may not ever be able to recover your losses from their theft, which will never stop as long as you interact with them. So you basically just have to start connecting with people who understand the nature of the predator versus the nature of those who are not predators. You just see it as like the predators, plain and simple, and maybe it's ignorance but I'm not there to try to make them better I'm there to to learn and get better myself and they can find their own path because I need to recover I I'm not going to take care of them and then starve to death, trying to always take care of all these people who are never going to change. You know it's like. Yeah, I hear you. This is such an interesting topic to me because we all appreciate that the narcissistic thing is just way overused to the point of where it's kind of lost its meaning and it's become a gender kind of thing in a way that it really shouldn't in that you know we're usually talking about men when we talk about narcissists. No, no, I get it, but you also get that that's when we hear when I hear a lot of the interviews you do and that's what we're really kind of a lot of times talking about and it loses the fact that the other parts of our culture that we're comfortable with are very much about promoting that kind of male energy that borders on narcissism you know the get thing done kind of mentality the protect at all cost mentality that I need you on that wall I want you on that wall go take that hill doesn't matter how you do it kind of energy. We are a product of that we are a product of the most narcissistic people that fought bravely for us to chop that other guys head off in a one on one battle, you know what I mean, and I think we're trying to understand that and resolve that and sometimes I think the way we talk about narcissism doesn't help. So it's like labels are problematic in so many ways, but so is the cultural overlay on this and what I really resonate with much more than the narcissistic thing is the trauma thing that you're talking about, both anomalous trauma and the kind of non anomalous trauma. And I thought it was very beautiful and eloquent the way that you said of our ability to kind of be our full self is inversely proportional to the amount of trauma we can relieve to me that's the some scar thing that is the yogic thing that I totally get and understand. I'm not sure that narcissism exactly fits into that other than we all got shit and some of the ship winds up looking a lot like narcissistic behavior. Yeah, yeah, but there's a real personality disorder that that's actually more, you know pathological and it comes from complex trauma. And that's the ones that I'm talking about that, like, even in my work, where when someone became hosted by an entity. It was because of that personality style, and the trauma that actually allowed those entities to even exacerbate those behaviors. So, yeah, that's what I mean but not not in the normal male female. I just think that all that gets really blurry and I think the labeling gets really blurry and then when we say real, you know, from some psychology perspective, like they have any freaking clue, they still don't believe that consciousness is real. I mean the official position among psychology is that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain. So all this stuff that we're talking about is a product of the brain there is nothing real in terms of your conscious experience. Not there yet. When we talk about spiritually transformative experiences at the beginning at the APA conference, there ain't no breakouts. Those those breakouts and spiritual transformative experiences are like tiny compared to overall psychology hasn't come around to the idea that there are these extended consciousness realms. You are because that's where you live and that's where you work. But in general, that's why you tell people they can't, the people that come to you they can't go to a normal therapist right. So, I mean, that's why I think it does get kind of siloed a little bit where you kind of see it and you lose sight of the world that that really exists out there and how it is so detached from what you and I accept as an obvious, obvious reality, which is, of course, there are these other realms. Yeah, I wish it was easier. But sometimes you don't have to talk about experiences like I found that we didn't have to go into the story and the particularities of the story of the weirdness, and just talk about feelings and feelings and needs from like a really basic human world. And then, then you're able to do work with a therapist without having to like, give national security secrets, or getting trouble that you're, you know, talking about shit that there's going to, you get in trouble for. So there's ways to get around that, because sometimes it is a national security issue, and you really can't talk about it so I feel sorry for people who have to work for those, you know, companies and they really can't talk and yeah. Well, folks, if, if any of this does seem to resonate with you in a way that makes you feel like you need to connect with this very awesome, open hearted person who we've been talking to. If you have any questions for Eve Lorgan, then please do contact her. You can find her at her website. And what we're what else should people know in terms of working with you or reading the books or anything else like that. Well, you can get my hard copy books directly through me on my website. There's a dark side of Cupid and the love bite still available on Kindle. So you still can get a Kindle edition there. And then I have a small alien love bite telegram group that I'm posting to that I can do a little more quickly than my regular website. So you can always get in contact me that way or through my email. And that's probably the best way or, you know, any interviews you've heard me on. I don't even have my own YouTube channel that I use. I just, you know, do other people's shows and it's easier for me that way. So. Well, excellent. It's been terrific. I'm very grateful for you being so open and allowing this conversation to go in ways that I don't think a lot of people hear when they approach your work. We didn't even touch on really my labs and what all that's about. But I think people will get the, get the general idea. So thanks so much for doing it, Eve. Well, thank you. It's great conversation. Thanks again to Eve Lorgan for joining me today on skeptical. Do check her out. I think if you have any kind of issues surrounding this anomalous trauma issue, it seems to me like she'd be a great person. Her books are challenging for the ways that I outlined in this interview, but other than that, I don't know, I think they're definitely definitely worth checking out. So then finally, you know, one question I tee up from this interview and it's kind of one of these where the question is just obvious, you know, do you buy the my lab thing? Let me know your thoughts as always until next time. Take care and bye for now.