 I wondered, do we have quorum or I forget how many people are usually here. We have zoom. Which is whoever showed up for the zoom is is often right people and I think yeah. And certainly if another person who cares a lot about what's going on shows up we would bend and and figure that out. Did Bentley say if he was coming today. Bentley is probably not going to make it. I got to meet Bentley in person last year. Yeah. He and Max Harper were in town for some work they're doing. And so it was great. We hung out for the evening on Friday. Like I was excited to know that they're actually humans you can hug. Very nice. So he's still in travel mode and I think we'll be able to be in this call. Oh cool thanks for sharing the indoor air quality puzzle. Yeah that's on our test site. So it still has to go through one or two more rounds of edits. But it's, you know, we're getting we're getting closer to the bullseye. If anybody wants to check in with what you would like to do with this time of sense doing please do so. Well I always enjoy talking about a topic. We could just pick a new topic and just talk about it. We could indeed. I'm interested in talking about the project since during project. I think I feel like we've never really resolved the question of whether we're working on. Whether we're working on techniques for since doing or since doing, you know, content, picking up picking a topic and and since doing. I'd be interested in one of them. Sorry, you fit. And, and I, and at the same time I'm not sure that we have, I think we would at least need Bentley or to have that discussion productively. But I, I modulo the, and maybe this is, maybe this is a demonstration that that we're actually getting stuff done. Modulo the policy keys. Air quality thing. I feel like we haven't really, I feel like we haven't done a good job of setting up goals and getting to them or getting towards them, which is a little frustrating, I think. So my own impression of our time here is that we're trying to sense do and leave a trail of artifacts of some sort that are hopefully sensible and sense made or whatever. And rather than go meta and talk about the variety of tools or the spectrum or whatever else but just, and the fact that we use policy keys was like, awesome, there's a tool, there's somebody who who developed it, and let's go, let's go nuts with that and see what that turns into. And then I was, I was hoping sort of to rotate to other ways of doing this but each time to leave behind some, some kinds of artifacts that were that looked or smelled a little bit like sense doing. And that's just my own, my own desires here. Anybody else. I have a, where I was hoping we would end up going on with some place in the middle, which was, I think, I think practicing with with particular tools a good thing. And I'm also not, I'm not interested in completely meta, you know, but I feel like we haven't defined what sense doing is what sense making is, and we can't describe how to do sense making to somebody. And that's, that's where I was really interested is, you know, what is, what is sense doing, and how do you sense do. And, you know, I, and then I can imagine that we're, we take particular tools or processes and, you know, here's our hypothesis. I, we don't have a theory of change kind of, you know, here's our, you know, here's our hypothesis about what sense making is or sense doing even better. Here's a tool. Here's how this tool demonstrates or doesn't demonstrate our effectiveness and sense doing here's how it does or does not increase the sense doing that we can do. I don't feel like that's completely meta. But, you know, it's at least so I guess I'm not interested in the theory of sense making but I am interested in practical application sense making. And I'm less interested in just just doing sense making and not practicalizing it as exhaust. So, so a sense making artifact that we've created. I think sub optimizes for the sense doing lab, because we made a little sense. Great. That's awesome. But we, we didn't level up the, you know, the practical knowledge of how to do sense making. I think I'm on the slightly slower front end of what you just described, meaning I really like what you just said. And my feeling is, as OGM for three years now and April was reminding me that yesterday a year ago she was in the Philippines, almost about to fly home pandemic was already in the air in Asia, etc, etc. So lockdown was imminent three years ago. I feel like three years of OGM ish, and we've done little sense doing of many kinds, at least collectively or collaboratively. And if we did that six times, I'm just picking a number, actively and busily like like like termites in a, you know, in a mound or whatever. And so we went up and went meta and said, Okay, what lessons can we derive from this our efforts here at sense doing sense making and headed toward principles or practices of sense doing which I think is a bit where you're heading. Like what do we mean, you know, definition principles practices anything like that. I would love that, but it feels like anytime we get close to doing the sense doing and just leaving something on the ground, we step up and look up and go meta. And I'm totally into the lessons from this and I want to do after action reviews. But to do after action reviews it feels like we need more action. Does that make sense. Yes. And so and then to the, to that point, then we should do an after action review of our policy keys work last week. Now, which makes total sense to me. I think a brief quick, useful ARs would be like, I think very useful in this process. So other perspectives on where we are and what our goals are. I was just going to say that I would like one of two things either to continue the conversation about air filtration, because I think there's more sense making that can be done, hoping that it would lead to a conference, you know, to, you know, talking about the sense making tools. And in my hopes is that eventually we find a way to weave both of those goals in and out, whether it's, you know, breaking off into groups and then coming back. You know, in general where the people that are focused on the tools and the people having the conversation or at least using the same subject matter to do both so that there's some crossover. Thank you. I'm not seeing that you guys are accomplishing anything in this. I'm sorry to say that, but I don't see what what does anyone accomplish so far. I mean the only thing we've accomplished is become more familiar with John's tool. So I don't see like when you move on to the next topic, what did you accomplish this time, and how is it going to translate to next time. Yeah, the only thing I keep stopping in my mind today as of this. I wasn't thinking about this before in grade school. I was on a debate team and you had to learn both sides of the subject and you didn't know till the last minute which side you want you had to do it I felt like I got more sense doing from that. And the last several weeks of doing this, like has anyone learned more about our filtration, or has anyone learned tools that when you move on to the next subject that you could apply it to the next tool to the next subject to, because you know to make sense, making out of the next thing like so maybe I'm just not seeing it. But that's my opinion. So sorry, because I was so excited to do this with you guys. I think you've stepped right into the after action review. And I'd like to hold that thought and come back to it if that's where we want to go but that's, it feels like my response to what you just said would be part of the after action review. John anything to add. If you want to do an after action review on the puzzle I can pull it up on the screen and we can look for errors and omissions. Let's wait on that for a sec. Because I think we just, I think we're after action review will probably reflect the whole process and not the specifics of the thing. I just went into my brain and retrieved one version of what an AR does, which is what were the desired outcomes were the actual outcomes, why were they different one from the other and what did we learn. If you wish we can sort of take that step through an AR or we can pick a different format. Let me pull up retrospective wiki real quick. Thanks. Looks fine. I think the other aspect of an AR is everyone can say any, anything to anyone about anything. Or that's the red, that's the army's version of it. I'm not the private can talk to the general general talks to the private. The cross right conversation probably is true that anyone can say anything to anyone is probably not true, because there's there's gates and not out of course, there's gates and boundaries of what's okay to within the norm. And also like, there's a thing called the writer's workshop format, where very intentionally the writer is taken out of the group and everybody talks about the work that was presented by the writer in order not to be saying this. Whoever wrote this is the stupidest person who ever existed. You want to get that out of the realm of possibilities to create some safety. Yeah. Pete, is there anything from retrospective planning that we want to add in. Okay. Then. Let me get Google Doc or hack MD. Then if you want to do a hack MD. I'm, yeah. That'll, that'll work well and then we can go through and just kind of answer these questions. And I think I think we'll be interestingly all over the map on what were the desired outcomes just even even to the starting point which I think will tell us a lot. So, so why don't we, while Pete is generating the hack MD doc. Why doesn't anyone who'd like to start in on the first question. Thank you. Are we writing this or are we saying, I would say, yeah, and several of us will take notes in the in the hack MD. If you want to run ahead with all the questions and just, I mean, Peter, you're going to copy paste the questions and just drop them. I will. Thanks. For me, I wanted to learn more about air filtration systems. And the actual outcome is I really didn't learn that much. Cool. Do you know, do you have any punch about why those things were different. We didn't have, we didn't go deep enough into the discussion. Hey, super helpful Stacy thanks. I hope I won't bend the format too much. I trust you Stacy that you're not going to get rattled by. And so, so I have a question. Why did you, why did, why was that your expectation of, of where we would get to. Well, the word sense making means to me to make sense of something. So, so we kind of teed up the subject and then we didn't make any sense or very little sense. Right, because I didn't get, had I been able to hear more discussion, I would have generated more questions in my mind that I then could have asked that once they were answered, it starts making more and more sense. Yeah, cool. Thanks. Anyone else desire outcomes. So, so let me, let me talk out loud and try to reverse engineer where I think we kind of promised ourselves that we would go. So, and so one of the things that I find, I guess, maybe, maybe this exists on a Google Doc and I'm just not good enough with Google Docs to to remember it, but one of the things that it's frustrating is that we don't have our goal written down already right. We kind of love to have had our goal written down like three weeks ago or something like that. You know, so to kind of go back in time and try to remember what we talked about one of the things we felt a little confused like we weren't making forward progress. John, I believe made made a good suggestion it's like well, how about if we, how about if one person brings a tool or a question or something like that and we kind of dig into that. You know, do sense making with that tool or around that tool or something like that. And so we kind of agreed that that would that seemed like a productive use of our time that we would, you know, swarm around one person's. You know, we call them the leader, the, you know, the facilitator, the question or the whatever, we would kind of swarm around that. And then I don't feel like we ever really decided what the swarming was supposed to accomplish. So so then now that now if I kind of come back forward in time to now. I feel like we did do a good job of proposing a tool. I feel like we did do a fair job of kind of exploring the tool. Because we don't because we never set up goals, even sub goals for ourselves around, you know, what are we going to do with this tool and what are we going to learn and whatever. I feel like we didn't accomplish it. So we accomplish milling around the the tool and not, and to me, and there were some great outcomes from that you know I learned a little bit about policy keys. Got some great background information on social social process political process and things like that just from talking with john in the process of working through stuff. You know, that that solved a, you know, a separate personal goal that I have to understand the world better and to try to figure out how to make change more effectively. But that was not, you know, that wasn't part of the sense doing goal, even though there's a little bit of sense made there for me personally. So I guess I, I have a really hard time saying that we understood our desired outcomes. And so I think we, you know, I think we didn't really accomplish our desired outcomes because we didn't have any good stated outcomes. Yeah, I just want to say that was one misunderstanding right there. I thought we were swarming around a topic and you thought we were swarming around a tool. Yeah, actually, a good, good point and thank you, Stacy. I also understand us to be swarming around a topic. So, so I had, I have a pretty clear recollection recollection recollection or remembering or understanding that, you know, we, we were swarming and milling around the topic of masking. And we kind of, we made a tiny bit of sense. It's like, well, maybe masking is actually kind of a subset of air quality and maybe you could actually make more social change with air quality and whatever right. So we did, I feel like that was good sense making, even though it was in the midst of a lot of kind of, you know, milling around. And I think to resolve that milling around feeling we said, you know, let's focus down into one tool, rather than just kind of like everybody's talking about everything about masking or air quality. So thank you, Stacy, you're totally right. But I did have both of those in mind. And unless you'd like to go jump in. Me, the one, did you say Joanne. Yes. Yeah. Okay, so the one thing I want to say so john's tool has it's great that he's got this tool and I could see so many good things for it but I feel like if this is a group about sense building that the once you have the tool I feel like all the sense building is out of it I feel like the sense building is coming up with the 16 pros and 16 cons. And so I feel like we skipped over the sense building when it came to this group. Okay, maybe I don't have to speak up at all. So, several different things. I was really happy with blacks last week's call, even though it sort of was different from maybe all what all of us expected. I don't know how we could have set up better goals because none of us really knew what policy key keys was. And I said during the call that I've seen policy keys now four times. There was a metric shit ton about it during the call, like a bunch of stuff that was not obvious to me whatsoever, suddenly showed up and I'm like, Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. And that gave me a better idea of what john might do with it in the future and how it might apply to sense doing etc, etc. I felt like I was watching the Betty Crocker cake already pulled out of the oven. I felt like the conversations you all had to come up with the 16 questions. were the interesting part that I wanted to learn more about and would have fed Stacy would have fed me. And in that process, I would have been madly taking notes in my own quirky fashion in the brain, but I was, I was really interested in which issues rise which issues fall. And then the work with policy keys made me realize that one of john's magic gifts is depoliticizing difficult questions and picking a target that doesn't cause people to immediately freeze up and show a gamut of yes and no so that people don't jump to their default setting and and and there's like three or four or five interesting things there about how policy keys tries to nurse people through the sense making part of it but it's not sense making the policy keys is doing because the sense making was done by him and his interns in creating the questions every single time. I'm really lucky and I don't know how policy keys does this people taking policy keys and expressing their opinions in it might actually be able to go deeper into any of the questions and understand how that happened, and maybe even participate in it which would be mega super cool, but I'm not sure that that does it or that that's even the intended process but but the discovery of why I agree or disagree with things is to me also like a really really interesting part of it. You all know that I was interested in the masking topic not filtration but I knew much less about filtration so I was looking forward to it. I had seen john's tool so I was eager to see that I was kind of happy at the end of the call and for me, the artifact of the policy keys template for I a indoor air quality was in fact a sense doing artifact of the kind I'm mentioning when I say wouldn't it be great to leave a trail of artifacts. So that made me happy. Now, it's a it's a it's a puzzling different artifact from what I ever expected we would have I had no idea that was going to show up but to me. That's great. And if we did that six times with different kinds of perspectives or different people maybe even on the same topic. I had an intermediate accounting course at at Wharton from a professor who was kind of a prima donna, and I should never have been in that course I barely made it through basic accounting and I don't know what caused me to take the intermediate course, but that professor use the same annual report from Stoffer Chemical Corporation for the midterm and the final. There was so much such a treasure of misinformation and crap in that in that report that use the same report and I'm like wow. And I don't know how I how I managed to pass the course, but sometimes when you stay with the topic and sort of go deeper we could learn a whole lot by staying on indoor air quality and fear filters and mandates and whatever for a while. That would make me happy as well if we never got back to masking. And we did that thoroughly and well, I'd be a happy guy also. What I kind of want to leave behind is reflections on this process, the tools, the meta stuff that Pete's looking for. I'm eager to do all that kind of stuff. But I need more action, more things dropped on the ground out of our process so that I can then go Oh, now I see a pattern, and I'm starting to get some wisdom from the process and things like that so that's kind of my. I didn't have a lot of desired outcomes other than leaving something behind, and I had a vague idea that you all were going to do stuff. I was surprised when we got there that you all had done all the thinking. I was like, Oh, I thought we were going to maybe come up with the 16 things that that's kind of my expectation coming into the call was that we would work together to figure out what those 16 or 32 things were. And I think they were different because you all took a different path from what from what we expected, which is totally cool. And I think we've learned a couple things from it. Maybe I just I said a couple things that I've learned from it in my feedback. Pete. Okay. Let me share my screen. And I, I typed some notes. Well, actually, I haven't been typing notes. There aren't enough of us typing notes to have captured the notes up here but which is okay. But you said two or three interesting things I want to kind of respond to one of them is you said something like I had, you know, a good time or I'm happy that or or whatever. So I, I want to kind of acknowledge that and agree, you know, I've had, I've enjoyed my time with this group I love, love you all love talking love learning stuff. So, you know, as a background goal, you know, I think we're doing good. You said, you said something like we didn't know enough about policy keys to set a goal about policy keys. I think that's, I wouldn't say it that way and I think. So, so an easy, you know, an easy goal that we could have set up is to learn more about policy keys. And, you know, and, and then in in projects and in collaborative work. When the group. When the group doesn't set goals and they accomplish things you can kind of talk about it and you kind of get this general feel of like well I like doing this or I like doing this but I'm frustrated because we always seem to be kind of like skittering around or I don't like this because it seems like we're always skittering around or whatever right. If you have so a, maybe not even a sense making tool but a collaboration tool is a project plan and goals and things like that. And goals don't have to be, you know, we should write a 128 page paper on whether or not policy keys is effective and yada yada yada you know it doesn't have to be a very deep goal right. So, you know, learning more about policy keys would have been amazing thing to have written down two weeks ago. And then, you know, come this, this meeting we could go, Wow, look, we accomplished a goal, we are like an amazing team. You know, we can set up a goal we can accomplish a goal. This is an amazing thing. So, that's what I'm missing. And, you know, it doesn't have to be any harder like it would have made our lives easier over the past couple meetings. To just even set up simple goals and to knock them down, you know, and, and the more you do have that, you know, the better you get at it, but the first couple are should be easy and should be knocked down a ball and then you go Wow, we're a team, you know, that's, that's how you go from, you know, forming is kind of a little bit of like project management and then you get to the point where you're storming because you build a virtuous circle of, you know, setting up a shared goal and and knocking it down as accomplishment. And I want to, I want to say, maybe I'll write here even. It's not that, you know, I think each of us had goals coming into this, this experience. So, it's not like we're not having personal goals and meeting our personal goals. What I'm talking about is, when we share our goals, we can talk a little bit and negotiate. You know, maybe somebody would say, Well, how about a goal of learn more about policy keys. We could go on a little bit further and realize that together. But if we actually work together to set up a policy, policy keys puzzle, that's the thing that I really want to do right that's like a little bit more complicated goal. And it's a goal that we come to together as something, you know, some some people might not be interested and they just want to learn about policy keys. Other people want to dive really deep into policy keys if we kind of like come to a leveled up shared goal, then that's a value add for everybody. And then we, we also get that experience of knocking down a goal together as a team. So, so, so then, you know, we could have set up this as a as a goal to. And, you know, clearly, Jerry, you've got this one like, and you've said it a couple times, and it's a, you know, and it's going to be a thing that we accomplish. In today's project check in, you know, we would say, you know, this is where this is a green, you know, a green thing. It's a green light still, it's not accomplished, but we're on track to accomplish it. John's going to push this out the door pretty soon. As soon as he pushes out the door and we all make blog posts about it. Well, let's come back and check this one, you know, so this is actually a fairly tricky one maybe to do a more complicated one but we're going to accomplish it, even though we didn't set ourselves as a goal. The thing that we're missing is, you know, what kind of artifact is that is the topic indoor air quality of the right one. You know, so the one of the things you were frustrated by was that. So, sorry, I'm talking a little bit in circles here. Coming back to work together to set up a policies keys puzzle. This is, this is something where Joanne and john and I, when we were off doing homework. We kind of knew this was in the air, even though it wasn't written down. We had to guess what was the most effective thing that the team could do. So this is another place where if, as a team we had set up some goals, maybe talk a little bit about policy key so we would know how to make a goal for it. We could have, you know, we could have done our homework to make it so that it would be easy to work together to set up a policy keys puzzle. So setting up this as a goal is a little bit. It's a this is a not, this is not quite an effective goal. It's a little bit defective. John and Joanne and I, I remember pretty, pretty carefully, we thought we were doing a good job of, you know, we kind of guessed that something like this was a goal. We didn't really talk about it explicitly but we kind of talked about so, you know, Monday is going to happen what what's going to go on. So we tried to set up the puzzle so that it would be easy to, I guess, I guess we were. I remember talking about this as a potential goal, let's just fill in a little bit of it, and then do the work of sense making afterwards. I think we kind of ended up falling back on this. Why do we make a, why don't we set it up really well. And then, and then the team will be able to learn a lot about policy keys in the process of kind of going through the homework we did and talking about the tool and all that kind of stuff. Long story short, I think, you know, I'm drilling in on what I think shared goals are and why they are useful and, and I think that we can do that as a team and I think if we don't do that as a team we're going to continue to miss expectations we're going to have not shared expectations and we're not going to reach our, our, you know, lack of shared expectations. Thanks. Did you have your hand, your hand up. I did. So I just want to say that. So, I thought the work that Peter and I do with john was really good and it's better everybody wasn't there for it. I went in a little bit naive. I didn't know much about policy keys and I thought what Peter and I were going to do with john week. John and I got together and did a whole bunch of pros and cons and I thought we were going to present all the pros and cons we came up with 15 to the group to kind of go through them. And john from that took it and made the puzzle up because he's got a lot of experience doing it and I don't understand why he didn't take some of the things we proposed as a pros and cons. So, so the end result. So I guess I went in thinking that our work with john was to see what ingredients we needed to get together. And we present the ingredients to the group and then we don't make the cake. And I feel like what Jerry said, the cake was already made. I'm not trying to just john at all, because I think he's so used to doing the policy keys and he's really good at it and it's an amazing tool. But I think if this group is sense making, we need to be more behind the scenes we need to, you know, maybe have the ingredients explained to us why we're using this why the oven is going to be on a certain time where you're going to whip versus beat and and make the cake together. And so, I think john puzzles when you look at them. The goal is to understand a topic, or look at a topic without the political, if you know, like you could look at pros and cons without feeling the whole I'm on one side or I'm on the other side. And there's that, since this is a sense doing group, I thought, we kind of jump the gun, we kind of made the cake without. Yeah, so I think I explained myself, I hope. Stacy you're muted. I wanted john to jump in because I saw him try to do it about three times so far this call. Okay. One thing I heard earlier in the conversation was about tools. I think the analogy I want to use is that you can look at a hammer it in the in the hardware store to admire it. But until you drive in some nails, you can't make an opinion on the hammer. So I don't really want to play with. A tool needs a nail. You know, so last week, I had thought that it would be best to drive a nail in. And then we can drive another nail in with a different angle or whatever. So I appreciate the comments that there are two ways to go about last week and one was to do a puzzle already made and the other one would be to do the 16 yeses and noes first. And I'm perfectly happy to do that. Another time with anybody else's puzzle. I mean that's, that's what this tool does. And the actually summary and the 16 yeses and noes is really the divergent part. And actually everything after that I've got now that it's a mechanical process. And it needs it needs an editor there's to be a human in the room doing it but I have mechanical processes that get it done. Joanne, you said something about, I think I, I try to lovingly edit the yeses and noes. Because I saw what I've learned by now because I've done 100 of these is that sometimes to really are the same. Yeah, and they need to be combined. And, and sometimes one was a great idea but it was a number 17. It doesn't quite make the cut because something else comes up and it's like oh my God we forgot blank, you know and then that all of a sudden that pushes the Bayesian sort down. And so I just try to do like a loving at it. On that I'm not trying to steer it or put my thumb on the scale. I'm just, I'm just trying to get the biggest span of yeses and noes that cover. I think I mentioned this before a bit. I try to cover the emotion the momentum. Usually that's shown in money interest something interesting, and then time span short and or long. And then by doing that it makes all of the yeses and noes. Interestingly different. Instead of echoing and I know I was doing a puzzle earlier today. I just found that I had like three. Yeses that were just echoes of the same one to the puzzle isn't done yet because I'm missing. Obviously, they're taking up rent, they're taking up space and you can move away. Some other interesting thing needs to come in that makes it more colorful. I was very happy with the way the puzzle came out. I mean, so I'm actually thrilled. I learned a lot. I mean, I didn't know a bunch of that stuff. I like to say there's aha moments when you're doing the puzzles. And the aha moment for me in that puzzle was actually We got off lucky because of that had been the antivirus the death rates 36 out of 100, not one out of 200. We got off really lucky. And I think that might be the headline of this whole indoor air quality story is that whether that was nature man made or edited, whatever's been discussed about what happened to us. The next one could be any one of those three. It would be a really good idea for venues where lots of people gather to have really good air quality. That would be really a good idea, and not even that expensive. I mean, I only think we're talking. What would that cost. That'd be a really interesting thing to find out for the puzzle would only cost you know 2.6 billion. Well, to the federal government that's pennies. Right, that's not. That's real money for a corporation but that's not real money for a sovereign nation with a monopoly currency. I mean, there's ways to figure out how to do that. That's all I have to say. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize my hand was I just want to say that last week was really useful for learning about policy keys. And it was really useful for that. But I think what I'm hearing from Jerry and Stacy is that we missed out on the whole sense building or getting to know the topic. And so I really appreciate last week just to get to know the whole sense building. I mean, john's puzzles. I want to get into the process that went into it, and what, how he uses it and stuff but that I don't sense, I feel like sense building in one sense was skipped over for the group. John what you were saying a moment ago about how fascinating you found the process of sorting out the yeses and no, that's the thing you guys did without us. So that's the thing Stacy and I were really missing. Any other angle for a are anything else. Why were the outcomes different what was learned. And Pete I like what you said about goal setting and I agree about very simple goals that you can better can do a bowl or do achievable or I forgot what you coined there was sweet. And so, so one of the things that sort of worried me going into this conversation was that many of us. If I felt like many of us were really disappointed with the call or something like that and I wasn't disappointed with the call. I just missed some of the outcome. And we could even dig back on that outcome and do it in a different way and that'd be totally fine. But I, and, and I will add that the fact that the cake was baked meant that I learned some things about icing cakes and marketing cakes that I might not have gotten to had our whole conversation been about the technologies and methods of air filtration indoor air filtration, which is also cool. You know, but then, and in particular John the nuances of how you go through building the keys. And then one last thing maybe reflecting on this is, it feels to me john, like, setting up a good policy keys puzzle is an art, and that you are the main artist. I'm wondering if you've been able to train anybody else to solo on this because it really feels like an art. I have trained people to do it and yes it isn't art. The. But at the end of the day. What was that guy from Apple, the marketing guy, because it went to win ski, because it's Kawasaki, Kawasaki guy Kawasaki guy Kawasaki yeah I think he said once you know I'm not all that intelligent. But man I sure grind it out don't I. So, I mean that's kind of what the puzzles are is grinding it out. If you get the right question, the puzzle will make itself if you sit in the chair long enough. And then it's a matter of who you do it with. So, you know with my interns. They'll come with. You know, we'll have a 10 minute sprint and we'll gather key yeses and noes. And then we'll start sorting sorting them and discussing it, and then the layers of the onion keep, you know, it keeps on blossoming because I had one I had something blossom two days ago. I got a puzzle on minimum standards to call yourself a news organization. And I realized when I was scoring telecom. The two of the biggest telecom companies are two of the six media companies that control 90% of all media sources in the country. Which way to call telecom. I would why would that even be a problem. But you know, if you sit there long enough and you look at it in a one page format. These things just, they just, they just fly out of the puzzle. Yo, who is that and all of a sudden the answer comes up so yes I think there is some. There is some artistry to it, but I don't think that unnecessarily that unique I think I just sit in the chair and grind it out. I guess I'll repeat what I said which is, you may be unaware of how special the skill you have is to find the right question if you had two or three trained people whom you have trusted to build 26 puzzles on their own without your own and you loved their answers and their questions I'd be like, you got it it's trainable. If you don't have that I still think it's your art because when you say you sit and grind it out, you know, you know, the toothpick in the cake, you know, when you pull it out that the cake is done. Yeah, that may not be intuitive to other people. Well, I have people done puzzles by themselves if not done 26, because they have day jobs. Yeah, I'm actually thinking about gearing up exactly that for the summer. Cool. With like hundreds of interns, and then see which one out of 100 or five out of 100 or 10 out of 100 can actually do a accomplished puzzle. Once you've done one, and it's accomplished is kind of like you're on the bike. You're not going to fall off the bike anymore. Okay, you still might be a little wobbly and you might not be as fast as everybody else but I could ride a bike. Well that's the point is that it's really actually that's an interesting way to look at it. Once the, I mean we're calling part of this depolarization process. Once you've done one puzzle you're basically depolarize. It doesn't mean you still don't have biases it just means that you're not like, they're always wrong. I'm always right. I never listen to anything that they have to say no you say wait a minute. I need to get to the their 32 reasons, because there are good ones in there I have to find them. There are. I mean, I've never done 100 puzzles up. Actually I have an easier time with the nose when I'm doing a puzzle than the yeses. I start with the nose. Because I want to know their argument first before I do the yeses. And, and there's, it occurs to me that there's a piece of this that's like steel manning. Have you heard the term. Yeah, yeah. So, so straw man is let's put up something steel manning is when you understand your opponent's argument, maybe almost better than they do. Yeah, because you've done the research and you sort of figured out what their arguments are and what's going on so this is a really interesting part there and it feels like it feels like some of the other tools you may turn to and the other methods we may turn to are could be feeders for the digestion process you just referred to that leads to understanding what the right questions are. I'm sorry John go ahead. So, I ever two things first quickly. They seem Jerry seemed to want to learn more about air filtration and if there's way we could do that I'm all for that. One thing I wanted to say was what I'd like to be happened, or is the next time you guys go to a completely new topic for the sense building, I'd like to see people show up one day with some pros and cons, and have the group together, make the 16 pros and I think you can't do it on master approach because we kind of talked about like a brand new topic and have I think that would be a sense making activity for the group is click. Do other people see the value of that, like, like they just a discussion of, you know, what are the pros what are we could throw like if everybody shows up with like five pros five cons we could put them all on the board and we could look at what are the pros and cons, you know, these two are similar. These two are not I hadn't thought about that. I think this is more important and I think that would be a useful activity with a brand new topic is to have the group. Work through what are the 16. Yes is what are the 16 knows and I think that that might that be an interesting thing to see if you could do that with the group and his dogs already done this he's already done this with his interns or his staff and he knows that I would or an interesting activity for this group to do. I'll just add real quick that I think that's what Bentley was hoping to do, because I had spoken to him, you know, earlier. I think that was, you know, and he when he was when he mentioned early on that he thought maybe there were different goals for the group. I think he was hoping for more of that. So can we go back and do it with air filtration or not like we should pick a new topic. I don't have that discussion but the reason I'm lukewarm is that I'm not eager to do another policy use puzzle in this process right now, I think we should try a couple other methods, or other ways of doing stuff. So the discussion that you're talking about. I totally want to know, but I don't want to be aiming for a certain number of yeses and a certain number of knows within this framework. I'm every time you did this I thought it was I did not know this was lukewarm I thought yes or no I thought you were just not lifting your fingers and that's lukewarm. This is yes this is no this is Matt. Oh there were sometimes you were doing that I thought it was a yes I've totally misunderstood you are. I apologize no no no this is Matt. I didn't. I thought that was twinkling as opposed to laziness or palsy. I thought that was twinkling like you like something that Matt, this is like. This is like. This is not so much this is not so sure. I thought it was twinkling. Sorry there wasn't clarity there. So very happy to get very and I think like Stacy very happy to stay on air filtration and go back into the stuff you already know because you've got a body of knowledge that that and can help us see through the topic very nicely. And I'm really interested in what the policy keys exercise helped me do was take a different perspective on the thing that was one of my original goals. And I think I said this but we didn't write it down as a goal but this was one of the things I was hoping would happen was the bubbling up of the priority of certain topics in within the within the domain of air indoor air quality. And one of the questions that float up high and one of the questions that seem to matter less as you start to understand the topic better. That's really interesting to me, but that's different from the process of coming up with the yeses and those in a policy piece puzzle, which is why I don't want to get entrained. I personally don't want to be entrained again and creating a new policy keys on a different topic. If that makes sense. So, we can. We were sort of not prepared to do that, although we could sort of do that at a hawk if we wanted to. We could also skip and talk about something else we could also wrap the call early and then set this or we could spend our time setting this up properly for next week. In a different way. Press. There's, I, I, you're locally muted Pete. Wow. Layer upon layer. Stacy can use me. I can hear. Oh, I hear you now but when you first talked I didn't hear a word. It's weird. There's, I think we owe some part of the group of since doing some more work with the policy keys puzzle as it as it stands. I'm not sure what that is or if we have the right group right now or what but I would suggest when the puzzle when this puzzle posts let's do what you said earlier Pete which is posted to our socials and so forth. And then I'm just imagining for what you just said, we could sort of backfill the process of getting to the logics with what we want to do next. Yeah, so so I think that policy keys. It's funny I was just thinking earlier. It feels like in those sketches of you draw two ovals then you draw feathers then suddenly you have an owl or an elf. So we went up to like step three just before step four. And now we can we have a chance to sort of do steps one and two also also. Yeah. I'm reminded about learning how to play chess. You can't learn how to play chess in one sitting. It takes a while. Like what's on peasant again. And how does the King castle green side castle differ from, you know, there's there's all these little, what's a fork. I think with any of these tools. It's like the hammer and the store. We just, you just have to play with them. And I'd be happy to play with some other people's tools and it's a screwdriver let's great let's do that. It was a chainsaw let's try that one see what it does. So you take it out for a test drive I'm not sure that you can. And then, you know, when, when you hit your thumb with the hammer, you know, not to do that again. I mean sense making sense doing I mean this stuff is complicated. You know you can't, I call it why describe this to be I call it it's a certain any sense making is a circular process. You can try to make it linear but it's circular because you learn, you go in a direction and you learn something you got to double back around and you, and you take a wrong turn you got to go back the other way now and it's that messy like that messy scribble in that one book. I think of it kind of like a little upward spiral if you're doing it right. Yeah, yeah. You're cycling back but you're learning and you're sort of getting you're making the thing better and you're shaking it into more sense as you iterate but it's very iterative in the way you just said. So shall we spend the rest of our time here planning next Monday's call in this way. It feels like a good objective. I may or may not be here I'll be in Florida, and I don't know what my wife's having me do. And I just realized I just realized I have jury duty Monday Tuesday next week so I will not be here because I have to actually actually actively be at the courthouse in person. And I don't. Pardon. Two weeks from now then. Yeah, so I think two weeks from now. Yeah, I'm just making sure yeah 13th and 14th is my jury duty and God willing I don't get put on any jury so two weeks from now work on the 20th of March. And we should also plan something for next Monday I mean whatever you'd like to do, or we can skip next Monday's call I don't whatever you want to do. What I heard from today's conversation was. There's the process. The hammer and there's the tools it's the mail. And what, why don't we take that as a formula and just pick a tool. Pick a pick a subject and then go for test drive. I'm just looking through something like that for the next session, and I'll come back to that after we hear from John. I'm just wondering if we have half an hour people have on their schedule when I pass our clear to be here. Do you want to just talk about air filtration Peter like it's to start answering Jerry and basis questions you're finding out what they want to know about it because all you guys are talking about talking but let's talk, you know, just for that with a tiny bit more planning, like I'd love to do that. And so Pete you may be having the same conundrum which is okay so what tools do we do we try to use for the next go around. At least that's where I'm a little stuck because I know I know exactly what tool I will be using it's called the brain. And I'm like I'm, I'm already. A long time ago when Tetris was popular I remember trying to go to sleep one night but seeing little Tetris cubes and in my eyelids and going oh shit I've played too much Tetris now. Sometimes I'll be in conversation and I'll see in my mind's eye where in my brain something should hang I'll be like oh that's new information, and my happy thirsty brain part goes oh I'm going to put it over here and I can see it. Luckily I haven't yet had that same reaction of I better stop using the brain because now I've, I'm like overly addicted. But I've been having that a whole bunch in our in our brief sort of touches on the topic so I'm eager to go do that. But then, does that mean we do a big Miro board together does that mean we pull out some other sense making tool and if so is it like Rome. But none of us is a happy Rome user, do we just go into obsidian, which several of us are very fluid fluid in. And do we create some logics in obsidian which means by the way, figuring out how to use obsidian in that way together which could eat a call all by us little lonesome I'm pretty sure because we would have different approaches to it but it would be really to me very interesting to figure out how to use obsidian together to do that. Can we use other kinds of tools and Pete were you puzzling on that. I was, I was trying to avoid puzzling on that. But that's a, that's a great, that's a great little tour right there. I am also wondering how we decided to can have we decided. What's the first loop we're in another tool talking about masks or indoor air quality or another topic. I'm on same topic different tool. I mean I'm interested in the first and second steps that we skipped over on the same topic, but I'm as earlier I'm flexible and can follow the group, you know if we want to do something different. I'm sorry, I think I'm going to keep going. Another question I have. And I don't, I don't remember if we're really talking about this. I had assumed that we were, we were doing collaborative sense sense doing in this group, but maybe that's not true maybe we're just exploring personal sense making or personal sense doing or something like that. And I'm assuming that's an indirect comment on me using the brain which is a single person single player sense making tool kind of because the only thing I can do is push out. And that makes me think about it. So I think it would be fun. Well, I just don't know, right. So, so if we're talking about personal sense making or sense making without, without, you know, regard to personal or collaborative, then I think having a whole call on the brain and how you use it to sense make and how other people might play with you or your frustration that other or whatever I think that's totally in bounds right. If it's, if, if we're specifically talking about collaborative sense doing then then I think the brain is still because you thought a lot about. Here's an amazing tool, you know that I can use that I'm a great artist with, but I have, I get super frustrated when it falls off the cliff and I can't multiplayer with people. So, both of those I, and I don't have a preference really well I do have a preference but. So, so then actually also you brought up a couple tools and ended with obsidian. I have seen more and more people. I'm starting to see people post. I was using notion I couldn't figure it out. Now I'm an obsidian I love it. You totally right. It takes a great deal of time to figure out how to do sense making collaboratively and obsidian but it's, it's starting to call up coalesce more and more that obsidian is a pretty amazing tool for that kind of stuff. So, I think I can answer that in a couple different ways. One is, I did a bunch of YouTube shorts about revitalizing cities the and these are sort of the YouTube shorts, and each of them is connected into. So this is a short where I do a 60 minute, basically a plug for this TEDx talk by Jason Roberts which is one of my favorite TEDx talks etc etc. I have then gone into obsidian and created a page for each of these talks and what I'm and my beef with the brain and a question that Harlan hasn't answered and doesn't seem to want to answer is. Harlan, could we make it so that when I create a thought in the brain and market a particular way it launched it opens a document in an editor other than this default editor, the notes editor that's built into the brain which he just rewrote so he has a lot of proprietary ownership over it. So that I can be editing in the brain but in fact what I'm doing is it's just another. It's just another markdown editor that manages to publish files outside the brain to some other source. And if that were true, and maybe even bi-directional where if I'm in a certain vault in obsidian it's automagically creating new paid new linked pages in my brain. Then my work in the brain is suddenly connected out to markdown files on GitHub repose or IPFS or elsewhere, and that is a greatly forward I think for the brain and for my ability to collaborate with others, the way you're, I think you're describing Pete. So, I'm happy to do this manually behind the scenes, because that's my bridge to other people doing note taking and things that are powerful like obsidian in more of a community setting. And once you should, and we should pick this up in FJB and then couple hours. You should tell Harlan, dude, what makes obsidian great is the plugin community and the API stuff. You should spend like this much time, and then you'd, you know, you'd be able to compete. I'm just so you guys are living in a world that I don't live in. I just a week after week we talk about stuff and we look at tools and discuss tools, and you're still not talking about the topic and when I said, we have half an hour let's just talk about air filtration if you guys want. And Jerry said, I'm not prepared I, you know, I'm like, but what about just talking about something I don't understand why we need to like why can't we just talk about or is that is that not what you guys do maybe I should go off and talk to people just want to talk about the subject and not talk about schools, because like are you guys do realize we've spent I don't know how many weeks now and you still haven't talked about the subject. So that's where I'm confused. It's like, is your tools more important or do you guys want to sense build about the subject. Yes. You guys did talk about indoor air quality just didn't include us in the conversation. Right, that's why I'm saying now let's oh I totally agree and we talked about that we talked about that was a mistake. Okay, and so right now I just said you wanted to start talking about it now and so, like, that's what we do with john was we just talked about it. We gave him like some pros and cons, and we did with john, we just talked that's all we do with john was we just talked. And then after that he did the, you know, we saw previous things 1660 but basically what we did with john, we didn't make the chart with him we did he did all that himself, we talked with john Peter, Peter did Peter sent me a document that had all the work you guys did. It was 80% of the yes and no, right and that's something we could do here too, but it's basically, and Peter and I did it, Peter and I did it just by talking, like literally Peter made the list by talking and then we met with john and we just talked. And so I'm used to being able to discuss the topic, and not needing to spend a lot of time talking about tool. So that's, maybe it's not a good fit for me then, or maybe I'm confused as to what the goal of this group is. I think we were just indulging in a short tools conversation to do the thing you'd like to do. And I just wanted to air some of those things about the brain not being necessarily a solo exercise because I'm happy to go do the work to make it collaborative and then, and then we were hoping to go back into the conversation and one last thing I just said was Pete. I hadn't thought about us using one of these calls focused around my use of the brain on a topic, but that hadn't struck me and it's not a terrible idea because then I could share screen the whole time and we could just talk through and I could, I could be doing live to the doc and then we can see where that goes I'm totally happy to do that as well. And I'm kind of, I'm kind of prepped to do that on the topic of indoor air quality because from from our previous call from our, our February 13 call I created air filters really reduce coronavirus spread we haven't emphasized them enough businesses should focus on workplace air filtration etc etc, you know, and which was something I created for last week's call, and, and on from there were actually two weeks ago, but I'm totally prepared to do that this way if that's the way we'd like to do it. So Jerry when you do that you just do just listen to people that do people like what we do with john you just have a session where people talk about the subject, and you do behind the scenes work the way Peter and I talked to john about the subject and he did the behind the scenes work of putting it in his puzzle. Yes, but it doesn't need to be behind the scenes if I screen share while I'm note taking right, then you can say no no no no that rephrase it this way or that should go higher or something like that which I'm thrilled about. But I mean there's one editor a bunch of people talking one editor and we could see what you're editing. Yeah, that would work to me to me that considered talking about the subject I feel like previously today we've just talked about tools or what, you know, what I didn't do was take the puzzle that you guys came up with last time and harvest the yeses and nos into my brain, which would be a simple starting point, but might actually confuse us a little bit. Because because the way you create the questions for policy keys seems to me to be fine tuned to some of the sub goals of policy keys. The question necessarily always the most important sort of, you know, everything looks flat policy keys presents a flat land and says hey tell me what you think where I think having an opinion about the topic might might intentionally not create a flat land of how to approach the subject. Yes, I just wanted to say Joanne I understand 1000% what you're saying, you know, I come here, just my goal is just to be supportive so I'm not that invested, which way it goes. That being said, even when Jerry was talking about the tools I was thinking, what about if we just had a conversation, but we invited a couple of people to bring their tool, not to even talk with us they don't talk. They just stay quiet and just do their thing. And then at the end, each one can show what they created from our conversation. This way the talkers do their thing, the creators do their thing, we're all together and happy in a community. And one time a couple years ago in the early middle middle early era in the Devonian era of GM. We actually had a ho down, which I should have just done much more often, but we did exactly that Stacey we had several people come in with different tools. We picked a topic, we only talked about it for like 20 minutes and then we each did show and tell about what we had done with that topic with our particular favorite tool and it worked very nicely and it was just the bare beginnings of what we should be doing lots, lots more of. And just to highlight, I particularly like that approach because you know we keep saying that especially in technology or finance there's so much like male energy, and I think that would open up space for more female energy, even even through men, you know, I don't mean men or women. I'm with you. So if we want to just talk about stuff I could share my screen and go to that thought in my screen in my brain and take notes and you could correct me as we go, or we could proceed a slightly different way what would you like to do. Well maybe I can ask Stacey, Stacey what do you don't have a tool. I don't have a tool. So, you'd be a good person that what do you want to know, like what how do you see the air filter like if you want to know more about air filtration how do you propose. I don't know if this is useful, but for me I'm always a question person. So for me, I would be making a list of questions that I still need answered so I do care about the costs, because if I were making a decision cost is a factor to me. So that would be a question that I would put to be found you know something to still be discovered or information that was required still needed. And even with that that's a huge kind of worms like when you talk about cost if a company does air filtration and it cuts down and schools do air filtration. So the kids have fewer cases of respiratory viruses, COVID and non COVID, they bring fewer them home to parents a lot of parents get sick because they're kids bring home. The businesses do it, parents have fewer calls like it. So the cost. So you'd have to, I think when you look at cost, which a lot of companies don't do, you look at reduce absenteeism. If with COVID or some other stuff you wind up in a hospital, you know, lower health insurance premiums, all that other stuff that it could keep going like the savings could just snowball but people don't always account for that they just look at how much about to lay out right now to get air filtration up and running in my business or school. Even before that, like I sent in a freedom of information request to my town to find out like what building permits had been pulled to put in air filtration units, which by the way they told me they could not give me, but they didn't remember any, but I don't even know. I would like to know how many, you know, like, how, how, what's the word. How common are they in the first place I, I, I know nothing. I don't know what the research says because I don't even know where there is air filtration happening. And one of the things with indoor air quality for the past 20 or 30 or 50 years or whatever. We've been working towards lead certification and stuff like that. A lot of the poorly designed I think it were poorly thought out indoor air quality. Directions has been to reduce exchange with outside air, because if you've cooled off the air inside you don't want to bring a lot of hot air you know if you're air conditioning you don't want to bring a lot of hot air and then have to cool that off. You'd rather just sit with your, your cool air or vice versa in winter you know it's like we spent a lot of energy warming up this energy and carbon warming up this air let's just keep it instead of exchanging air. So, there's a, there's a thing that's happened which is green air buildings, you know people have been spending money on green air buildings and there's social rewards, governmental rewards to incentivize that you can, you know. So, at the same time, nobody was really thinking about indoor air quality. So, so it's not uncommon now to see really high CO2 PPM readings in green buildings because you know we cared about energy we did not care about indoor air quality. Did I capture that properly in the sentence I just put in. The designers recirculate air to preserve temperature, but reduce air quality. Um, yeah, there's a hundred different ways to phrase this because I think I would say it a little bit differently. You know, the green air buildings movement focused on on energy saving at the end, and at the detriment of indoor air quality, especially things like oxygen. So whether or not you've got viruses in the air. We're starting, you know, schools and, and especially businesses are starting to suffocate their employees. And it was actually shocking to join and I when a little bit when you start to not have enough CO2. The reason we we measure CO2 is because it's a proxy for how much air you're breathing from other people and how many viruses you're getting from them. But it it's also a seesaw teeter teeter toter with the amount of oxygen in a room. So outdoor air is about 460 ppm indoor air that's up to you know 700 800 or something is still pretty good. When you get up to 1500 you're starting to lose a fair amount of cognitive function. Like a dramatic amount like 20 or 30% it's it's like a big deal. And yet 1500 is is kind of what people think of as pretty good air still, and it's not uncommon to see it go up to 2000 3000 4000. And, you know, the and the, and the, the HVAC people are gone. Yeah, we're saving you a ton of ton of money on energy. Wow. I can't believe what you just said that's like, that's incredible. Am I capturing this adequately. I haven't, haven't been watching and I something you said Stacy was I felt like I was trying to go for an answer and I'm not sure I got there. So you said, you know, how, how, how, how common is it to have indoor filtered air. I think that's not been it's it just hasn't been a focus. People, you know how common is it to heat your air is very common how, how common is it to air conditioner. Pretty common, except if you're in the right parts of California you don't get air conditioning, which is really weird. How common is it that people care about particulate concentrations, you know until covert actually the thing that you were worried about in indoor air quality was particulates smoke, like big smoke particles and stuff coming out of truck exhaust and stuff like that. So it's I don't think it's very common to filter that kind of stuff out in buildings, obviously, you know when they're pulling air in from outside they do put a pretty good filter usually to keep it from coming in. But once it's indoors or you know if you've got a restaurant or something and you don't care too much about the particulates. So then it wasn't until covert and it wasn't until after covert like six months or 12 months that people started really caring about aerosols in air. Because it turns out, you know, everybody was worried about big smoke particles and they weren't worried about tiny smoke particles and tiny viruses. So it's it's a completely new thing that we're doing indoor air quality focused on aerosol sized particles and and a lot of the work that's been done you wouldn't see in building building things, it's coursey Rosenthal boxes were super, super successful in small, you know, small verticals. So if you had a school or something like that. It was pretty easy for, you know, when everybody would cared about about taking care of each other for Coronavirus. It was pretty easy to have parents or alumni or something have an effort to a let's all build a bunch of CR boxes. And this is rough and ready kind of thing that we can do now to help, you know, help save everybody from this terrible disease that happened a lot. And so we got a lot of CR boxes installed, but not tracked very well. And it's, it's still a fairly new thing I think for for architects and HVAC people to talk about indoor air quality in any large sense. I live in a condo building, I have an air conditioner and I have one of those, you know, filter things, but, but my so but my heat comes through vents, is it possible to get filters for my vents. The, the air gets filtered before it gets put into the furnace, and then it's uncommon to filter it after it's been heated. It's just not designed that way. So you can cut up, you can actually cut a filter and just put it right under the register. Yeah, you can hack a hack it. Yeah. Because I'm wondering if my again I have no clue. I'm wondering if my events are connected to my neighbors vents in any ways. Peter, Peter and I live, when we lived in DC out just outside of DC for a year, we lived in a really nice apartment, and our neighbor smoked, we had to seal off our vent because his smoke was coming in through our vent. So Peter and I do think that in some place like hotels you were about when we go travel. Now we look for something that's not connected like we'd rather get a little Airbnb cottage somewhere that doesn't share indoor air. I think there are places I don't know about spaces but there are probably some units where you do sharing or I don't know what spaces look like. Stacey, if you worry about that you could get either build a course he rose and Bob off or you could get have the filter and put them in your room, Peter and I have filters because if we have somebody over, we just have them running for our own purposes and we got them also ahead of time thinking when COVID hit if one of us got it. In the other one we tried to keep the other person from getting it their families that were successful that one person got COVID. People were in 95 math and doors they had to have the filters running and nobody else in the family got it which typically a lot of times the whole family gets it. But I would want another thing there might be when Stacy was talking about cost Belgium is with the first country to mandate indoor air quality measuring CO2 you have to display the CO2 they have. And it can't be next to a door window because you could get fresh air from that and kind of it takes what you know further back in the room, it would be. There might be, I don't know if they've got statistics or someone ran numbers there to push this. So it'd be interesting I've, I've not looked at the numbers I've looked at the reasons for a rotation and what you could do and all that other stuff. But there might be that there's a few other countries that I've done it to. So I probably had I didn't write down all my questions but I think Peter said, you're at 1400 they feel to level of 1400 the cognitive ability might go down 30% I thought it was more like 40%. And there are some places there was somebody who wanted to do something at a kid's library and they had a little CO2 meter Peter and I have one too little CO2 reader that when we bring it when we go to the dentist or something like that. It was like 2500 in the library and at that point he says I don't have you know talk to school about viruses I could just talk about, there's a really good Harvard studies that came out. And if at 1400 CO2 levels, your cognitive functions down 40%, could you imagine what it is at 2600 you know, and you think businesses and schools want people to be functioning at, you know, on all cylinders. Is it a proper assertion to say that measuring CO2 concentration is a good proxy for viral air quality. That's what people are doing people are, that's what people are doing because you can't measure if there's virus in there. But in it, and, and another term you should know is air changes per hour I think ACH Peter air changes per hour is is a phrase that often pops up when you're talking about inner air quality, but yes people right now are using CO2 meters to look because when you're outside even though you could catch COVID outside if you're spanning like a foot away from someone talking to them for 30 minutes they have COVID, you're outside you could catch COVID from them you could probably catch further from them in 10 minutes, but in the air quality outside be like 400 something, but it's still a lot better than if you're inside a room. But to answer Jerry's question, I think CO2 is what people are using as a proxy. And they're using it as a proxy yeah. Another way to think of it is the CO2 measures how much of other people's area of breathing. There I think it's a pH. It's actually ACPH or a CH either one. Okay, either one. Okay. So I'm actually going to do this. Yeah, great. And that we'll find it with either acronym. Yeah. Go ahead. Joanne and Peter, do you have a source with a chart that cognitive ability goes down as the, because I'd like to actually use that. There's a Harvard study. I think I, is that what is from the Harvard study. That's the thing I see reference the most. So after we get off the phone, I'll have Peter. Impacts of indoor air quality and cognitive function that one. Let me find it again. It looks like that. Offhand, I don't remember the title. And here, I got it. Associations of cognitive function scores with carbon dioxide ventilation and volatile organic compounds. It's a different one. Could you put that in the chat? I'll send it to Peter and then he could do it. Yeah. Do we have any data on how many changes per hour are good? Like what's a, what's a virtue line is and I'm, I'm. It interacts with. It interacts with what you mean by change. If you are running the air through a filter, then it depends on how, how good the filter is, whether it's more of 13 or or have that, for instance. Oh, right. And then you can also mean air changes. How much outs outdoor air are you adding to the, adding to the indoor air. So I, I, I'm not a, I don't know that really well, but I know it's, it's not, it's not an absolute number. You have to add a couple of the numbers in there too. So I created a thought called issues in designing indoor air filtration systems, under which I put how good a filter to use and what measures indicate proper air filtration. And this isn't beautiful logic, but it's, it's, I'm just trying to connect up some of the dots in, in the reasoning here. And how to introduce connects back up to HEPA and MIRV, which were thoughts I already had in my brain around air filters. So most of what you're seeing here existed before this call. So here's a bit of text from this. And that, that's actually they pulled that from a prepit article. Yeah, I think there's no way to remove 100% of the air like it's air. You're, you're scooping as much as you can. I remember a very long time ago, for some reason getting a being in a lecture by Kaiser Permanente facilities expert might have been in an IFT F event. And he was talking about how they were moving toward bamboo flooring for various reasons of cost texture and and sanitation. And also that they were, he debated the, the virtues of air pads in a space, and apparently like, I don't remember if it was up to down or down to up was preferable to having registers in the same spot on the floor or the ceiling or something like that that that through flow was healthier. And that just stuck in my head but I don't remember what is exact advice was, but I was like, Oh, that sounds important. It reminds me, somebody did a study where they had they built a couple CR boxes and deployed them in a room and put them in different places and one of the obvious things and I think they actually compared it with air purifiers to you know commercial like John and I put it in the chat we have. We have three actually they, they're about the CR box size but they're you know hard plastic and they've got HEPA filters and a carbon filter to reduce orders and they're fun. They're but they're also 160 bucks each. But anyway, they had a they did a study where they compared different air purifiers and CR boxes and where they put them, where you put them on the floor where they put them up towards the ceiling. The one thing I remember is when you put them together, you get less, you know, less air changes than if you put them apart, because you, you can clean the air right around the CR box if you're not circulating the air in the room at the same time. You're not cleaning all of the air in the room you're just cleaning kind of around the box. So, you put, if you have to CR boxes you put them at opposite sides of the room and they, you know they talk together kind of in the air. And that's what you want. I just sent Peter link because I'm not able to and I posted it. No, this is a new link people often asked how many years this is from Joey Fox so somebody who's an HVAC expert, and he tweets a lot like he gets he any, if you reference is a study he'll actually link to study. But people here's one of his tweets from February 23 of this year people often asked how many air changes per hour are needed. And it's not a one size fits all and then he's got an article link that explains it so I just sent that to Peter. It's so Joey Fox 85 on Twitter. He's got a wealth of information and if I were just going to recommend one person to just he he explains things so that everyday people could get to understand it he he links. to articles that he talks about. And he's also talks about high UV, which is the totally separate thing. And that's, but anyway, so if Jerry asked about air changes per hour that article might be a good article to read. Thank you. That Twitter link goes off to a medium post that he's got. And it's his article. Yeah, so, I'm mentioning joy Fox I see that we're time join mentioning joy Fox reminds me that a big part of what I feel like is sense making, especially for emergent events is identifying and understanding experts. So talking to Joanne, you know she can rattle off, you know this person you can trust whatever they say this person often is good but sometimes they're a little bit confusing or they miss state things. So anything they say is toxic, even though it sounds sweet, you know, yada yada. We've actually got a confusing situation right now one of our specialist air specialist from the UK. She's trying to make a point. Another another thing by the way is all these people who post really good information on Twitter, they get bombarded by all kinds of people trying to take them down. It's, it's, it's upsetting and sickening to see, because if you're just trying to make the world a better place and tell people how to be healthy. They will shoot you down and some of them have to run away, you know, and, and it's scary anyway. Trish, somebody joined all green fall. She's she's in the UK. She's been posting great stuff. And Yesterday or something she posted. She's trying to counter people who are essentially thinking of her as a Mac mask maximalist that term didn't come up I don't think but she, you know, she's like, Hey, I'm trying to be sensible, you know I'm not, I'm not like crazy I'm not trying to tell everybody they were asked to ask everywhere everywhere for all time. And one of her random tweets was right now I'm in a coffee shop on mass and john, you know, our heads both kind of exploded like what is she doing you know. So one of one of the one of the replies to that real quick was do you trust the air there did you know we need to know more you know, or have you gone over to the dark side, you know. That's, it's still an open question we don't know yet. It was for coffee and croissant. And there's a really good air quality scientists from scripts in California, who has, who's today is defending her because people are like, Oh my gosh to cross over to the dark side for what coffee and you know, some people have not, he or I have not eaten inside a restaurant since COVID started. And this person who's just amazing air quality scientists at Scripps is trying to defend the person saying look at she's saying she's weighing out the pros and cons don't you know this is her choice and you know please don't think she's this horrible person but yeah. Who's this good person. The Scripps person is Kimberly Prather is that her name Kim Prather. And she's really she's the one who's done studies, and she found out we live near the ocean. Like we're about 15 minute drive and she said that when the ocean waters bad after storm you're supposed to keep out of the ocean because it's bacteria in the ocean. She's done tests when the ocean waters when they tell you the ocean waters bad just stay away from the beach, because the air quality is equally as bad. And before her study or before studies like that people hadn't made the connection that if the ocean water quality is really dangerous for you. So is the air right above it. So she. And I'm not tired. It's not like, like people I know who watch Fox News like Fox News is their God and, and no matter what Fox News so that them they always trust them. I just want to say that over the years, I've just you know this person there was someone who consistently, you know, seemed to say really good stuff and then one day they said something and after that it's like, you just like if someone suddenly turns and they're not saying stuff that's reliable and we have three and a half years of knowing whether or not looking back at what people have said like, you know, are they alarmist for no reason are they alarmist are they, you know, not giving out good advice and and if someone suddenly it's going to start giving out bad advice and I previously about their, they were reliable I'll be happy to just say okay I'm not going to rely on them anymore. So Joey Fox is one of those people that he really thought they thought he just really gives seems to give to me. I haven't done the studies I'm not but I when he talks about indoor air filtration and how much you need and also the chef I think he's proven to be pretty reliable since COVID started. And the, the person who had coughing croissants her thing she's had some really good. She's talked about air masking, and she, a lot of people referred to her, her air masking research and so. There have been people that I thought were really good and then after a while you're like, okay, they're not giving good advice anymore and I just, there was one person in England and suddenly it's like yeah everybody's going to get covered that's it it's like, okay, maybe I'm not going to value your I don't, I think when you anyway, this is a whole different topic. I'm trying up to get covered because I think covered has been shown to stay in your body for a long time and we don't know. So if I could avoid it by wearing a mask and just stay getting take out for the meeting in a restaurant that's what I'm going to do. I went off on a tangent sorry. Peter was the name of that testing unit you like. We use an internet for the CO2 monitor. Yeah. It's the, it's the one that, you know, all the geeks. He uses. Heronet, yeah. Heronet. ARA and NET four. It's, it's made in, in Europe someplace. And it's about this as we've actually brought it with us, like when we, when COVID super high we do Eric, a home delivery for stuff and then when it gets slower and we bring it in like I was curious when I, you know, COVID wasn't everybody wasn't dying on it brought it in with us. You can see stores, what the air quality is and you notice at the back of store, there's less CO2 changes we bring it to the dentist because obviously it's like your mask off of the dentist. And it's kind of, we don't bring it with us that much anymore. Because COVID cases are lower or, but it's pretty small people bring on airplanes. And it's amazing how dangerous the air is before takeoff and when you're landing there's no air exchange and that should be legal I mean seriously, it should. It's your cram like sardine, and they are super bad. And I'm amazed that's legal. I mean the airlines are would lobby to not change it or not, they wouldn't want to roll because it would cost them money. I love all this information so thank you. So Stacy if you want you can just see we could have like a separate you know you can call Peter and I could talk to you about this for like another hour or so. So I'm kind of a Peter and I like we're, we're, we're caltech dropouts. So we're, we're science geeks. And so when COVID came it's like what is COVID and, and, you know, and everything about it's kind of like when they talk about the Higgs boson things like what's, you know, I'm the kind of person who looks it up. I understand it. And it's not just covered and so I just kept up on it because it's your health I mean Peter and I haven't been sick in three years. And we're feeling healthy and we have relatives who lived a long time. You know my dad died he's almost 93 and mentally he was all there it's like, I'd like to be able to do that. You know. So, that's what I'm taking away from more than anything that one fact about the CO2 levels and cognitive function I'm carrying that one with me. Yeah, but you did so we talked about last week that if you're driving your car and you got on recirculate, just because either it's winter or summer, your CO2 level might be really bad. So maybe it's worth using up a little more gas to get, you know, fresh air because I mean we've all been like in the car driving and we're sleeping and we can't figure out why. Roll down. I just dated myself. You roll down the window. For 60 air conditioning. For windows and drive 60. Well, thank you everybody. Yeah, thank you. That was great. The one last thing I want to leave with we were talking, I think it was john he said we were lucky because the death for COVID, the I forgot the phrase is the death rate is a lot lower than other diseases. The thing is, people keep saying there's going to be another pandemic and the death rate might be higher, or it might do long term damage or irreparable damage even if you're just sick for a month and might, you know, like and somebody were saying they've done studies people's brains hearts long. There's like long term damage in some people from COVID. And so, if we did this air filtration being, it would benefit us when the next pandemic came like we could have not done the shutdown. If we'd had proper air filtration think about that if people knew about respirators not just the cloth mask people had respirators and air filtration, we could have, we maybe would have had to shut down indoor dining and indoor bars. Otherwise, we could have not shut down. And that would have been great for the economy and it would have been fewer deaths, fewer, you know, overloaded how many people died because they couldn't get attention from doctors and nurses when they had a heart attack or stroke which was not coven related. Like it's not just Peter and I don't want to have COVID. We also if we have a stroke or a heart attack or break our leg organ the cracks and we want to have medical care who could take care of us, and they're not inundated with COVID people. Yeah, I think that's the headline on this is it's it's not. It's the next one. And there's going to be a next one and it looks. I mean, I've been following the news and there's all these little outbreaks all over the world of these new viruses and are they really going to handle them properly. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe this was intentional. Maybe, maybe not. I mean, it's, I think the headline is indoor air quality. I'm not sure there's a better answer at the moment. I'd rather not be sick like we just had a daughter who doesn't ask all the time, and she's in grad school, and she was sick last week and had to take most of the week off. People, Peter was saying that a lot of people he works with are sick, and they can't do the things they planned even if it's, you know, going to wedding or meetings or something like that. I mean, if indoor air quality could mean you're sick last, less time off less having to cancel your plan, wouldn't that be great, even if it's just a cold, wouldn't that be fantastic to be sick last. I mean, we don't need this many calls we don't need this much flu. It's like water quality. It's like, yeah, I like not getting sick from my water. I wish I could not get sick from my air to. My apologies my zoom bank twice and then I rebooted my local internet connection I hope that's okay I think I need to reboot my machine, and we're well over time but I don't mean to interrupt a good conversation. But I also last week or the week before I put in the thought, hey, if water quality was a really important thing a couple of decades ago maybe air quality is the new water quality. So, to what you were saying just now. At some point, maybe the start of next week's call or the week after some will be on next week's call. I'd love to go over what are the notes I took in my brain to see if they map to how you would arrange what you were saying and then maybe do a little prioritizing or something like that. I want to figure out what are the top level questions somebody would bump into early to sort of find their way into the issue, which is contrary to what I think john is doing with policy keys, because you're, you have a particular goal approach and means for the issue by saying hey look here's here's here's the whole, here's a whole range of things find your way through by answering specific questions. And I'm sort of doing a different thing with a different tool I think. Yeah, I'm trying to take very deep dives on very thin chefs. Right so when I picked up from this conversation last half hour 45 minutes was maybe a companion puzzle about air quality but not for viruses, but just for overall health and productivity, because the United States is a kind of country that could prove that it would increase productivity in the workforce by 20%. It'd be done tomorrow. I mean, there wouldn't be any discussions going on they would be just done tomorrow. And then that's a proxy that's that that's better than trying to convince someone to do it for viruses. If you if you could show parents that if your kid takes the FAT in a room with poor air quality versus in a room with fresh air, they score a lot higher in the fresh air room and it wouldn't wouldn't parents be screaming to get good air quality in schools. I mean, you know, they paid thousands of dollars to have people tutor them in FATs I mean. It seems like an entry vector also is maybe European lead specs. Because if they're already paying attention to this than the lead specs may already include air quality and other sorts of things which would be great to point to. And if they, and I know that you go to Norway or Germany and those houses sealed tight. And the reason that they have lower heat bills is that they are really well sealed. And if they're not doing air well then the health implications are pretty huge. So that might be a vector in. I'm happy to leave you all in the room I'm I need to go prep some lunch that I've eaten something before the next call starts which I'll see Pete on and maybe Stacy. I think we should do lunch. Even the dogs gotta. Thanks, guys. Thanks.