 Good evening and welcome to the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Zaman Dunwoa Kumalo. And today we're on episode 13 of the Private Property Podcast, and we're on day 33 of the lockdown. I actually had to do a mental count of how long we've all been at home. And on today's evening, on this evening's show, rather, I'm joined by Nicholas Brody, who's the financial director at SLLR. And we're going to be talking about the impact of COVID-19 on sectional title schemes. Now, a number of us are probably staying in sectional title schemes, or maybe even have properties in sectional title schemes. And of course, this lockdown has had an effect in either the way that we're living, the way that the trustees might want to conduct their business, or other aspects of our living. So to help us unpack this, Nicholas will be joining us this evening. Thank you so much for joining us this evening, Nicholas. Good evening. Thanks for having me. I think before we even get to some of the meatier questions of sectional title schemes and how they're potentially affected by this lockdown, maybe let's just start with some of our viewers who may not know what sectional title schemes are. I mean, I think many people might be staying in a setup like that, but might not know what exactly it is. So if you could just take us through what exactly are two sectional title schemes? Okay, so obviously a sectional title scheme is a specific arrangement which has been established in terms of the sectional title schemes management act, okay, where owners who purchase within the particular scheme obviously derive ownership of a particular unit and usually attached to that, there's obviously an indivisible portion of the common property of the particular scheme. And there may be additional things that are attached to that which are specific use areas for those individual owners that are attached to the particular portion that they own within the scheme. And I mean, if you could just take us through, I'll say how they are typically run. I mean, I'm a trustee in some of the buildings or even complexes where I own, but perhaps to our viewers at home, if you can just take us through how they run, I mean, who gets elected, for example, to be a trustee? Because that probably brings me to the next thing around the AGMs, which is where we elect those particular trustees, but firstly, how they're actually run. Sure, so obviously there's sort of two phases for sectional schemes. The first would be obviously there's a developer which develops the scheme initially and they are the ones that are called to obviously do the first meeting once a particular unit in that scheme has been sold off to another owner. Okay, and essentially that starts off the annual general meetings which you mentioned. And thereafter, there should be a annual general meeting which occurs and at that energy and meeting, essentially a board of trustees are elected and they are the ones who essentially make the decisions for the running of the particular scheme within a particular year. And they do that running within the rules that are canvassed for the particular scheme or set out within the act. So each year, certain rules are adopted for the running of the scheme and the trustees obviously are the ones who are entrusted with the judiciary duties in order to make sure that those particular rules are put in place. As we can imagine, there probably has been an impact in the living arrangements or sometimes even how that particular sectional title is run because of the COVID-19 pandemic and of course, in our case, the shutdown. I think firstly, let's just look at the impact, for example, on things like the annual general meetings. There are probably certain complexes that had scheduled AGMs during this period. Would you advise that they either move out that particular AGM? I mean, I know that there are certain, I mean, a lot of them would have more likely, more often than not, communicated it by now because I think you're given notice around when it happens. So it's pretty standard. I know there are rules and regulations around where it should be happening and the fact that, for example, if you don't curate the first time around, you must meet the same place, same time, you know, the following week. So how do we then navigate that kind of setup when there's also a legislative framework that essentially helps us, especially because some of the decisions that the trustees are going to be making obviously have financial implications. And so it's not just about their particular apartments, but it's essentially managing quite a big budget of the particular complex or estate. Yeah, so I think, you know, we've got to look at two sort of periods if we're looking at the circumstances. Obviously we've gone through now a period of lockdown where essentially the gatherings of people was prohibited and it was prohibited with the enforceability of a criminal offense that happened. And we've seen certain people who've had social gatherings with multiple people and they've got in quite a lot of trouble with the police for it. So during this period of lockdown, you know, I would hate to hear that there were any formal AGMs that occurred. Obviously if there was a notice that an AGM was going to occur during this lockdown period, you know, unfortunately for all of us, the lockdown sort of got sprung on us. So it's completely reasonable that those particular AGMs didn't happen. We then have to consider that going forward, obviously, when it comes to the first of next month, we seem to be moving into a different phase of this whole situation for COVID. The important thing is at this stage, we are, you know, on the basis of the president's address, which happened last Thursday, we're now waiting for regulations on the five stages that he set out for our plan for COVID going forward. And we're waiting for those regulations to be gazetted because then we'll know exactly what the movement restrictions are on individuals, okay, and how we can move going forward. So once those are gazetted, we'll have a better idea of can we hold AGMs, you know, in person and when can we do it? The important factor which needs to be taken from the president's address is in his address, what he said is that they are going to place the five level restrictions, okay, down to a metropolitan level, okay. So it's not gonna be that, you did say that there is a, you know, there'll be a nationwide level that we're sitting at, we're sitting at a level four and that has certain restrictions, but it's going to go down to metropolitan and districts. That detail. So what needs to be remembered is, you know, what's going to happen for a sectional title scheme, perhaps in Johannesburg might not be the same for a sectional title scheme in paper, okay. Those two things can differ widely. So that needs to be taken into account, but, you know, if it comes to, when it comes to AGMs, you know, if AGM was supposed to happen during this lockdown period or, you know, perhaps it was intended to happen within the next month, you know, an option is obviously for the managing agents, for the trustees to push that out a little bit further. Okay. Again, we don't know how long this, you know, these certain levels are going to apply for. So you obviously, it's, you know, the managing agents, trustees, you don't wanna push out your AGMs for as long as possible, okay. If it pushes out a little bit, not really gonna be a problem. What the other option is, if we do a reading of the sectional title schemes manager, and specifically section 61 of the particular act. Now that's the act that obviously regulates how these body corporates are supposed to function, how the sectional title schemes are supposed to function. The meetings of the trustees in terms of 61 need to take place at such a time and in such a form as determined by the body corporates. Okay. So it doesn't actually require there that it is a personal, you know, people coming together on their feet. It does actually have scraped form of the general meeting. And then obviously, I think it's, you know, for most managing agents, it's a common practice. Now in terms of section 64, you know, it's send out notices to the relative owners of the scheme via email in order to let them know the time and where it's going to be held. So I think actually there is some scope for managing agents body corporates to actually accommodate their owners within the scheme, you know, and hold an AGM via Zoom or some other electronic platform. But I think we've all become very familiar with the Zoom at this point. So that might be a viable way in order to do your AGM to pass all these things. Again, my only warning with something like that would be, you do have to take it into account, your particular scheme and the means that may be available to the particular owners in your particular scheme. You know, you might have many owners who can, you can attend a Zoom meeting and you'll meet your quorum, which should be effective. If you're not going to have that, you don't have people in the particular body corporate who are going to be able to attend a Zoom meeting and you know this, you know, you're not going to reach your quorum and then as you say, you're going to have to pull another meeting at a later stage. So that might be a circumstance we perhaps you want to push out your meeting instead of trying to conduct it. Yeah, I was actually going to ask you on that necklace around the issues of quorum. I mean, I know with so many sectional title schemes, there's always complaints around how owners in particular schemes typically don't attend the AGMs and more often than not, we tend to struggle to meet quorum. I mean, quorating is such a struggle that you will meet that first time and then you obviously schedule the meeting for a same time the following week and you know, the week passes and it's usually the same usual suspects and so people still don't pitch up. So in the event where, you know, you don't quarrel in that first meeting, are we still going to be using the same principle where, you know, are we waiting for each other for 30 minutes in that Zoom meeting? Like we typically would in like a face-to-face meeting and should we not quarrel? Are we then essentially rescheduling? It's here now that digital AGM or meeting for the following week, same time, we'll still send out the link just to make sure that we kind of tip those boxes that we essentially know that we're supposed to be taking. Yeah, so that would be my exact suggestion. You know, obviously the Sentinel Title Schemes Management Act wasn't drafted with this sort of circumstance that we're in line with. So the act does allow for the form of the meetings to be dictated by the trustees for the body corporate and so really what you do is exactly that. Call your first meeting, see if you do have a quorum. Obviously, you still need to meet your quorum requirements in order for any substantial decisions to be made. That's just, you're not gonna get round that. So if that quorum isn't made, again, arrange your secondary meeting a week later and then move on from that position. I gotta say, I did have a debate with a couple of attorneys from my offices and, you know, we've always, we do understand the problem with trying to get quorum, you know, from people coming to the meetings. I think you might actually have a better chance if you're doing it electronically now. Hopefully, I think, I mean, I'm fortunate that none of the properties I'm in right now will have an EGM in the near future. We usually have it towards the end of the year, but I know that we do typically struggle with quorum. So it is one of those very contentious issues and those of us who attend regularly end up almost budgeting that we're not gonna meet quorum the first time around. So we have to essentially block off the following week's date and time, the moment we get in a place because we know it's just not going to create it. So if you're just joining us at home, this is of course a private property podcast. I'm on the line with Nicholas Brody, who is the financial director at SLLR. And we're talking about the impact that COVID-19 has had on sectional title schemes. So whether if you are part of a sectional title scheme or have a property in a sectional title scheme and you've got any questions for us, do send them through on Facebook and we'll be sure to address some of your questions. Now, Nicholas, of course, the other contentious issue that comes up when you talk about sectional title schemes in light of the COVID-19 and especially our lockdown is around the use of the common area. I mean, I've been seeing so many different social media posts from people who sometimes are complaining that in their conflicts, they're not allowed to be using the common area to exercise or whatever the case is. And because the reality is not all types of properties, you have your own little yard. So typically, I mean, with some, you don't actually have a tiny yard. Or if you do, it's only the guys who are on the ground floor, everybody else. I mean, I'm on the top floor. So we don't really have our own little yard space to do whatever that we want to do. What's the, I'll say the framework or the legislative framework that body corporates, while working with, of course, the managing companies can or cannot say to the people who live in a complex around what can or can't be done. Because I think, part of me is very sympathetic to both sides, I mean, in the one end, this is the yard that you're staying in. So you'd like to be able to have full use of it. However, on the other end, in the event where you get exposed to COVID and you're using the common area and walking around, you know, you're almost increasing the likelihood of spreading it in that particular complex. So it's a tricky one. But I think I'd like us to understand what the legislative framework, especially to guide whether it's trustees or people who live in a complex who can or can't be done by their body corporates and the managing companies that run their complexes. Yeah, I know. And it's a good question. It's a tricky one. It's one we've been debating thoroughly over the last couple of weeks. Because obviously there's been no direct directive which has been made by government in respect of sectional title schemes. And it would be impossible for them to have made a directive specifically for your sectional title schemes. You've got to remember, every sectional scheme is different. Yes. Common areas are different. Exclusive use areas are different. It's impossible to create a directive that would apply to every sectional scheme fairly or probably. So there's no overriding legislative indication in that respect. But where we sort of come down on the argument has always been, well, the direction that's been given from government at all times is that people must please stay in their homes. And that for us sort of lends itself to the fact that people must stay within their actual home. Now, obviously the arguments on the other side is that I'm a part owner of the common property of the, you know, within the scheme. For me, that's simply, you know, yes, absolutely you can own it, but that doesn't make it your home direct. And as far as all the regulations that have been undertaken so far, and obviously we've been looking at the draft regulations for going forward in the various stages, even though they're still in a position where they are subject to change. The indications at each level is, well, you need to stay within your home as much as possible. So my advice for my clients and, you know, body corporates is really, you know, try to avoid people using the common area completely. I don't think it's in compliance if everyone can walk around the common property. You know, you might end up with a situation where now you've got a whole bunch of your people within your scheme who are now in social context within the common property. And like you rightly pointed out, I think that's entirely against what the principles that the government has issued. You know, it's a social distance people that try and stop the spread. So for us, I think in government saying, please stay within your homes, obviously that's not a direct, you cannot use the common property, but I think it's clear enough that people should stay within their homes and not use the common property as much as possible. And the last one on the issue of common property and perhaps what they can or cannot do. And I know this may sound like one of those questions I probably shouldn't be asking given the fact that we're in a lockdown, but I've seen some very interesting activity on social media, but things like people visiting, right? So I mean, obviously I think a lot of the security at our gates have probably been given a directive that you cannot let visitors in because we're essentially in the middle of a lockdown. Why are people even coming to visit? So just understanding things like visitors but also delivery. So I mean, a lot of us are probably making use of ordering whether it's groceries or even medicine online and having them delivered. And I think one of the measures that are probably trying to be put in place is not having delivery, the delivery guys physically getting into the complex, which typically they probably would you just give them a code, but now people literally waiting at the door and you say, I mean, waiting at the gate and you essentially have to come all the way up to the gate, we're not letting people in. Is that a reasonable thing that the body corporate can make a decision on to say that we're only letting people that we know live here in? And obviously these would be people who have access whether it's via the access card or whichever way that you access your particular complex or estate and ensuring that no outsiders essentially drive in as much as possible to try and contain movement in the complex or the estate. Yeah, so I think there are two sort of elements to that. The first one being visitors for people in the sectional scheme. Now, in respect of those particular circumstances, I mean, the lockdown is basically put in place so that people don't move at all. Okay, so when it comes to people who are visiting a particular sectional scheme, there I actually, my opinion is security should stop. Okay, again, you're going to, those people are invariably going to go through your common property and that becomes a problem. So for them, I think, you know, lockdown's quite clear, people shouldn't be moving and that would include any visitors to the business. When it comes down to people who are doing deliveries, a little bit different, because obviously provision has been made during the period of lockdown for those who are delivering essential goods. And obviously what one would presume is that anyone who's delivering goods to a particular premises, number one, it's going to be an essential good. That's actually being delivered. And number two, it's going to be delivered by a vendor that is authorized. Obviously there's a licensing process that's going on in the background, allowing people to deliver essential goods. And you want that particular individual to actually have the licensing to do so. In those circumstances, obviously, there's no way to stop that. Those essential goods, you know, there's license, they're allowed to be delivered. Again, when it comes to, well, what's the logistics of the particular body corporates? Do they stop at the security gate? Are they allowed access into the particular, you know, into the particular complex to come drop it off at the house or at the door? You know, again, it comes down to, well, what is your, what's the structure of your particular sexual scheme? You know, if you're a sectional scheme with four people, you know, it might be quite easy. You might be quite close to your security gates or whatever the case is. But obviously we need to be cognizant of the fact that there are homeowners associations or sectional schemes out there with thousands of units contained within it. So, you know, trying to keep everyone's essential goods at what would be a security desk on entering into that complex may be a logistical nightmare, to be honest. And you may end up, you know, hampering the situation when you've got lots of people coming to the security to come pick up their stuff every day. So, while deliveries of those essential goods should really be allowed, I think, you know, we've got to be practical about how exactly people get those particular items. But again, you know, the real crux here is obviously when it comes to the trustees, they've got a fiduciary duty to obviously act, you know, act properly in the lights of their duties for the body corporate. And those fiduciary duties will include obviously compliance with the regulations the government has put in place. So, we do need to be cognizant of the fact that the body corporate really has to try and make sure, you know, when visitors fall for visitors' purposes, no, they really should be restricted access into the particular complex. Of course, then, Nicholas, you know, the third aspect is probably going to be around money. And, you know, some of the questions are really coming in at home. So, if you've got any questions around, you know, sectional titles and the COVID-19 crisis, do send them through. I'm with Nicholas Brody, who is the financial director at SLLR. And we're trying to, you know, help each other out and help each other figure out, you know, what's the best way to manage it in the event where you're either living in a sectional title scheme or perhaps you've got a few properties in a sectional title scheme. So, you've got tenants that you must probably extend this particular message to because the, you know, the managing company would have sent communication from the trustees. So, that message also needs to essentially filter down to your respective tenants. Before I get to some of the questions that we've been asked from the people, the viewers who are watching us at home, I actually have the last one around levies, right? Because I mean, I think a lot of us have been talking about the impact of this pandemic on our pockets. We've seen a lot of people using their jobs, we've seen a lot of people experiencing salary cuts and having really serious conversations around which bills are going to be paid, which items are not going to be paid. I mean, previously, just on Friday, we had somebody from APSA who was even talking to us about some of the relief that APSA bank has actually has for their home owners or clients who they are home owners. And so really looking at, you know, how do we then almost work around the fact that we have to obviously pay for levies and sometimes depending on how the system in your particular sectional title scheme runs, you're also paying for water, you're also paying for electricity, those items are not prepaid. And typically when you're going to be paying late or when you're in areas, you're already getting letters of demand or late payment letters from the managing companies, I think by like the 7th or whatever the case is, they're already being sent out. So how can we then essentially navigate that? Ken, is there a way that you can almost have a conversation with the managing company, what can the trustees do to try and be proactive about it because we must almost anticipate that it's going to happen, it's inevitable. And I'm sure in some sectional titles, it's already happened, where you almost need to know or anticipate that they're going to be accounts in areas and it very likely may not be one month. So in the event where people have paid for April, May is going to be tricky. I mean, we've already seen numbers around, you know, a lot of tenants not paying their April rent. Already May, we know the May rental, I mean, next week is probably going to be a blackbath for landlords. So how do we then have a conversation around levy payments with our managing companies? Yeah, so again, it's a tricky question. The essential and hard position is obviously, as long as you're an owner, their levies are payable. That's the overriding provision. So, you know, I need to address it because there's been a lot of things that go around where saying, for instance, rental levies aren't payable during the period. The fact is they're still payable during the period. However, you know, everyone's got to be cognizant of the fact that, as you say, we're going through a very hard time. You know, people are taking, you know, hits to their salaries, perhaps not being paid at all. And I think what's best in the circumstances is obviously where there's uncertainty, the best thing to do is have good communication. And I've already seen with a couple of my body corporate clients that I've got, where obviously there are some owners within the scheme are experiencing problems, they're experiencing, you know, less pay. And what you should really do is take it on yourself to then communicate this to the particular trustees. You know, as I say, there's no overriding legislative provision which you can rely on to say that you can have a remission. But I think clear communication to the body corporate in order to say, well, guys, look, I'm now receiving this salary than I normally do. If you are receiving this salary, make sure you've got a letter from an employer which sets that out so that you can provide that to the managing agent, to the trustees and then try and have good communication with them in order to come to an arrangement for maybe a reduced payment during this period and catch it up at a later stage. Again, it's really gonna depend on your circumstances. So everyone's got different circumstances. So the only way that you can navigate this is to have good communication with the managing agent and with the trustees themselves to see where that arrangement can be made for catching up on those particular levies if you are struggling to pay. Some questions coming in from our views at home. Of course, if you've got any questions, do send them through. And Nicholas and myself will address them. We've got one coming in from Dural Jafter and the question is, are property management allowed to charge you interest on overdue levies? The HOA has changed twice in a year and the previous property management company did not perform and never charged interest on overdue accounts. We stopped paying as there were unethical things happening and they've got a second question. I'll ask the second question just shortly. So let's first rather just deal with that one. Sure, so you said HOA there, so that's a homeowner's association. Now, the trick of the homeowner's association is different to a body corporate. In that a body corporate is regulated by legislation directly, okay? So sectional side of schemes management act basically regulates the establishments until such time as the body corporate itself implements conduct rules for them running of a particular scheme. Homeowner's association is different in that that is a company, okay? Most of the time an on profit company which is then established, okay? And it has its memorandum of incorporation or articles of association which govern how everything works in that particular scheme. Now what you'll find in most of those articles of association or memorandum of incorporation is that there is a provision for interest to be charged on a rare accounts or alternatively if it's not sitting within those particular documents then a resolution is taken. So the articles of association will allow for resolutions to be taken by essentially what would be the directors who can make decisions for the running of the homeowner's association and a resolution for interest may have been taken. In those circumstances provided obviously that everything is done correctly in respect to the resolution of all of the cases and interest can be charged on those particular amounts. But again, it's a very specific circumstance because obviously every company's articles of association or memorandum of incorporation will differ quite widely. So yes, but there's a big provisor on there on I don't know what the content of your particular homeowner's association documents say. And the second aspect of Gerard's question is secondly, what should the correct levy be for a complex? A reasonable value to have a functional complex. That's very difficult to answer. Because where's the complex located that would affect obviously the property rates? How many owners do you have in your particular scheme? What insurance do you have to cover? Unfortunately, that's a bit of an open-ended question. So I can't really answer it with any real clarity. Yeah, it is a very contagious one. I mean, oftentimes I've seen certain complexes where levies are as high as six, 7,000 rents. And people are paying that very comfortably and they think they're getting value for money. Whereas there are other areas where levies are 1,000, 1.2. So it really does vary from complex or estate to estate and there are different considerations to the amount that ends up being decided on by the corporate or the trustees. Another question, and this one, I think it's also quite an open-ended one. And is it worth purchasing a home in a complex? Sorry, did you say is it worth purchasing a home? Yes, yeah, in a complex. Yeah, also a bit of an open-ended question. Look, yes, there's certain benefits and that come with owning a particular home in a complex. The great thing about sectional schemes is up until the act was actually enacted, you can only buy full-titled properties and multiple people were essentially sort of restricted from living in a particular full-titled property. There are benefits that stem from a sectional title scheme. Obviously, you have multiple owners in the scheme that all share with the costs of running that particular scheme so that you can pay low levies in theory, low levies for the continued running of the particular scheme. There are definite benefits for a scheme and for first-time owners, if you are a first-time buyer, obviously, the price range that you're looking for something in a sectional scheme is something that's achievable compared to a freeholding stand, which are much more expensive depending on where you're looking. But obviously, with the ability to buy your sectional scheme, there are also obligations which you must meet. So if you are buying a property in a sectional scheme, make sure you check the conduct rules for the particular scheme. Make sure you check the financials, what exactly you're going to get yourself into, what are the levies that you're going to be expected to pay once you've actually purchased that property. And if you ask the managing agent or the sales agent of that particular unit, they should be able to give you all that information. So really, is it good buying a sectional scheme property? Yes, but you do need to do a little bit of research when buying the property, just to make sure you're getting into something that you can handle because you're going to be paying levies going forward from the month that you've actually purchased. And it's such an important one, Nicholas. I think so many of us, when we started in our property ladder and probably bought into a sectional scheme, very likely didn't know that we had to ask the estate agent for financials to get a sense of how well that particular sectional title is being run and also get a sense of how much levies are. And if at the moment that you're buying, there's a special levy, because it could very well that you're buying just after they've resolved that they're going to have a special levy. It's going to be 2,000 rands. It's going to run for 18 months and you've done all your calculations and you are not anticipating that additional 2,000 rand for a special levy. So being able to understand those dynamics when you're purchasing a property, but also once you're in the scheme, that there are those times where you might raise a special levy in order to do whatever infrastructure project that the complex might want to invest in or do is so crucial because if anything, you end up finding yourself in the worst financial situation because you didn't quite anticipate that that's going to be an additional cost to the home ownership. And now, Nicholas, before I let you go, any other tips and insights that you'd like to share with us for our viewers at home who are either staying in sectional titles or owners of apartments in sectional titles, particularly during this period? I think it's so important for us to try and get a sense of just how wide the impact of COVID-19 crisis is in our lives, that it isn't just about us staying at home, but it's affecting the whole property sector and different players within the value chain. And all of us kind of want to find different ways that we can, I suppose, navigate this and also be able to find some kind of comfort in knowing that perhaps these are the best things that we can do or these are some of the things we probably shouldn't be doing during this period. No, I did. So I think it's a little bit of what I said earlier with regards to permanence of levies. It's really, at the end of the day, obviously these are unprecedented times and it's something that we've never experienced in our lives before. And really when it comes down to something like that, the best thing is communicate with your trustees if there's a problem, make sure you let them know what's going on in your particular circumstances, because we all have different circumstances that we're dealing with. And we're all under the same burden here. We're all struggling a little bit. And the only way that you're gonna be helped is if you communicate effectively with people. So make sure you communicate. Make sure you are trying to get as much information as possible. Obviously the address from the president of last week, basically we're expecting this week for a whole bunch of regulations to be put in place with regards to who can work, how they can work, our personal movements. And all of those things are gonna have a big impact on what happens. And that's expected to come in during the course of this week. So make sure you keep yourself updated on exactly what information is coming out. Be careful for information that is not actually correct, because there are a lot of things flying around. I mean, within five minutes of the president's speech last week, I had received about 30 different levels for the restrictions that are going to be in place. And I don't know if any of them are true. In fact, I know none of them are because the regulations have not been gazetted yet. Make sure you use viable sources for your information, but mostly communicate with each other. I think this really is a time for human beings to sort of work together to try and get through these problems and communication is how we're gonna do that. Nicholas, thank you so much for joining us this evening. I think this was so insightful. As somebody who lives in a sectional title, but also has different properties in sectional titles, I've also found it to be quite useful. I think a lot of the trustees and even the management companies have tried to be as proactive in communicating the message. They would some of our management companies, they've actually preemptively sent us communication, pre-lockdown to say they will be working, they'll be remote, this is how we can reach them. And just really trying to make sure that we are at ease as we try to make sense of the lockdown and now, I mean, a lot of us don't even know how long this is going to be. So thank you so much for joining us this evening. hundreds, thank you for having me. And that was Nicholas Brody, who is the financial director at SLLR. And we're talking about the impact that the COVID-19 crisis has on sectional title schemes. And of course, if you have any more questions or you'd like us to answer some of those questions or your comments, you can always leave them down below and we'll be sure to address them. And if you want to be reading up on some of the tips to help you navigate being at home or understanding the home ownership journey, you can always go to our website, www.privateproperty.co.zn. And of course, we'll be back again tomorrow evening at 7 o'clock for more on the Private Property Podcast. I've been your host, Zaman Donga Kamala. Thank you very much for joining us. Hope you're staying home and you're staying safe. Until tomorrow evening, goodbye.