 Good afternoon everybody and welcome to our energy conversations at the ANU Energy Change Institute. My name is Ken Baldwin and I'm Director of the ANU Energy Change Institute and it's my pleasure to act as the moderator for today's energy conversations. And before we go into the webinar itself, I'd like to just first of all acknowledge and celebrate the first Australians on whose traditional lands we meet and pay our respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. So today's energy conversations will be around developments in community-based energy storage and we have two speakers from the ANU Energy Change Institute who will present on these important topics and we will follow their two presentations with two people who will act as discussants on their talks and we will then open up the entire webinar to questions. I will field some questions between the discussants and the speakers to start with and then I'll invite questions from the audience. This is a public event and media may be present. The event is being recorded and will be shared later on the ANU TV YouTube channel. So if you are an attendee for the first time and are using perhaps Zoom for the first time, let me just explain that you have the opportunity to ask questions down the bottom of your Zoom screen. There is a Q&A button which you can press and that opens up a dialogue box in which you can ask a question. There's also a chat button where you can share your thoughts with everybody who's on the meeting. I see now that we have 236 participants which is great. That's a very good sized meeting and shows the value of reaching out in these electronic presentations at times when it's clearly not possible for us to all get together. That's a terrific response from everybody in the audience. Just to go through that again, we'll have a presentation by our two guest speakers from the ANU Energy Change Institute. We will then have an opportunity for our two discussants to comment on what they've said. We will then have a discussion amongst the panel of four speakers and that will be followed by Q&A from you the audience that we will moderate and put to the speakers. We are going to have a wrap up time of around 1pm but if of course there's great interest we can maybe continue a little longer. I think that's pretty much it for the formalities. Now I would like to introduce the first of our two speakers. Marni Shaw is a research leader in the ANU Battery Storage and Grid Integration program which is part of the Energy Change Institute's portfolio of activities. Marni is also a convener of the Institute's Energy Efficiency Research Cluster. Marni, I would now like to introduce you to present your talk as part of the Energy Conversation. Thanks so much, Ken. Can you see my screen? Yes, we can. Can you see the screen, Ken? Can you hear me okay? Yep, but you're in present of view. Okay, how's that? You're still in present of view. Is that right? Yes, there we go. Thank you. Sorry about that, everyone. Okay, so thanks everyone for tuning in. It's really great and exciting to see so much interest in this topic and thanks, Ken, for the invitation. So as Ken said, I'm Marni Shaw. I'm a research leader in the Battery Storage and Grid Integration program at the ANU and at the core of our program, we have a focus on doing engineering and social research side by side. That's because the technical solutions that we develop will only work if you consider at the same time the people who'll be using them. So our talks today are an example of that. So I'll talk about community batteries from an engineering perspective and Heather will speak from a social research perspective. And I think that after you hear both the talks together side by side, you'll be convinced of why this collaborative approach is so important in this field. So I just want to mention some of our project partners. I think some of them might be tuned into the webinar. So thanks very much. These industry-wide collaborations are really integral to the success of this work. So we really appreciate their participation. So the idea of community batteries has been around for a while. But in Australia, we've seen really over the past year or so that the ideas really started to attract a lot of interest. And that interest is not just from community energy advocates, but now also from the industry more broadly, including networks, regulators, and even the market operator AEMO. And the reason why community batteries are really gaining this attention is because they can provide a lot of different services for different stakeholders. So it can provide storage for customers in potentially a cheaper way because of economies of scale. But they can also provide the kind of support for the grid that we increasingly need as we're adding more and more solar generation from our rooftops. And at the same time, shared energy assets like community batteries might be a good way to address some of the energy equity issues that we need to be mindful of as we transition to a low-carbon energy system. And Heather will speak a little bit more about that after me. So what do we actually mean by community batteries? Really, we're talking about scale. So batteries that are on the order of 10 to 100 times larger than your typical household battery that you might buy, and they would be shared between more than one user and sit in front of the meter. So typically on the low voltage network. So you can imagine something like this. I'll just try to get a pointer. So something like this on the right, which is a little shipping container. You can imagine it would be a shipping container like this in the green space, in some green space in your suburb. And we see now that quite a few companies are bringing storage of this scale to the market. So in practice, community batteries are already being trialled in Australia, but only in Western Australia. Here's one on the right that's in El Camus Beach in Western Australia. And the reason why they can be trialled there a bit more easily is because their electricity network operators are government-owned. So they're governed by different rules compared to our privatised system over here on the East Coast. In practice, it means that it's difficult for networks to own a battery here on the East Coast because they're not allowed to buy and sell energy directly to customers. So that brings me to the central question that we're trying to answer with our research into community batteries. Is there a way to operate a community battery on the East Coast? And who would own such a battery? And what rules might need to be changed, if any? So some of the specific questions that we're looking at, are there feasible models for ownership and operation of community batteries across Australia, if yes, which are optimal? And then very importantly, do the batteries actually solve the main problem that we need them to solve? And that is allowing us to increase the amount of renewable energy like rooftop solar that's being integrated into the system. This is what we call hosting capacity. And finally, we're investigating a possible real world demonstration of a community battery. And we're doing that in partnership with ACT Government and speaking with our local network operator Evo Energy. The project is planned for a new suburb called Jacka that has mandated every house to have solar PV. So of course, that's a really great thing. And it's driven by ACT Government's ambitious and world leading decarbonisation program. But it can create a challenge for our local grid. So the goal of this trial would be to work out whether community batteries provide a good way to support very high solar PV penetration. So how do we actually answer these questions? We've built some software, it's open source software called C3X, to model the behavior of distributed energy resources, DER, and the impact that they'd have on the distribution grid. So basically for our model, we consider a subregion of the distribution network that's shown here. We call it a local energy system. And that's connected to the wider grid that's shown here. So we can flexibly model households who have solar generation, who have a battery or households with no DER. And we can also add into our model community batteries you see here. So then we can calculate for a given number of houses and for a given amount of solar generation, for a given battery size and operation, what's the impact on the energy flows in our system? And what's the impact on the aggregate energy flowing into and out of our local energy system? And from that we can work out the economics. So how much do the households pay for the electricity? How much revenue does the battery make or how much loss and money made from the battery trading directly on the energy market shown here? And we can also estimate the technical impact of the battery. How much local solar energy can it soak up and how well can it provide the grid support? So I'm not going to go into any more technical detail, but if you're interested in finding out more you could read our technical reports or feel very free to get in contact with us. So we have some early results. We've been trying out different models of ownership and operation. And we do find that there are feasible models. So this slide shows the cost benefit result for one of our models where the battery is owned by a third party. It could be, for example, a local council. And we included in the revenue payment from the network for the service that provides that's shown here in orange. This simulation is for 200 households over a whole month of January in 2018 for a battery size of 500 kilowatt hours, 250 kilowatts. So you can see that the revenue for the battery is slightly higher than the cost. And the customer savings are about twice the cost of the battery itself. So this works out for 200 customers to be about $15 per day. And we've also seen that the community battery can increase the amount of solar energy that can be generated by households in our model. So the orange bars here show the total energy imported from the wider grid to our households. And the yellow bars show the total energy exported from our households to the wider grid. So these energy exports in the yellow bars are what are really causing networks headaches at the moment. And we need them to be reduced. So we can see that household batteries do a good job in reducing the energy exports. They reduce by about 25%. But then the community battery doesn't even get a job. It reduces the exports by a factor of about 50%. So I'm going to wrap up there. And I'll finish by coming back to our main question. Is there a way to operate a community battery outside of Western Australia? Our work suggests that there is. And it might provide a good solution for integrating more renewable energy into our grid. So I want to just finish by thanking our project partners and also by thanking Arena for funding this work. So thanks very much. This is our biscuit program at the ANU. Thanks, everyone. Terrific. Thank you, Marnie. And we will now move on to the second speaker in our energy conversation. And that is Dr. Hedda Ranson Cooper. Hedda is a research fellow also in the battery storage and grid integration program here at ANU as part of the Energy Change Institute. And she leads the social science part of that program. She works with colleagues from a range of different disciplines and is looking to understand and facilitate the transition to a more sustainable electricity grid. So I'll now hand over to Hedda. Thank you, Ken. And I think that I'm having some help here with the screen sharing. Wonderful. Thank you. And Paris, I'll just let you know when it's time to go the next slide. So thank you, Ken, for the invitation. It's a real delight to be able to have the opportunity to share this research because we're coming towards the end of the project. And so it's really exciting for us to be able to actually share some of our results from all this work that we've been doing sort of behind the scenes. So within Biscuit, the social science team, I guess we explore the sort of cultural, social, political questions surrounding the energy transition that is underway. We're focused on how this future is unfolding. And we're working sort of with our technical colleagues to ask some quite kind of fundamental questions about what it is that we need from our energy systems and who are we creating these systems for. This project does exactly that. We could have just looked at sort of local storage owned by a network and not really looked at how the community would be involved. But right from the outset, we were kind of interested in questions around access and affordability and sort of enabling people who are otherwise excluded currently from renewables to be able to kind of engage more in the renewable transition. We discovered pretty early on that this is a very, obviously, it's a new technology. So we don't really know what it is that people think of it. There's not a lot of research on sort of the idea of a shared battery. What do people think of it? How could the community be involved? Could this be a future technology in our energy system? So you'll get a sense as I go through the presentation that this is quite a substantive piece of work and this presentation is really just a taste of our findings. There's a lot more that we've got that we'd love to kind of share with you if you're further interested. So I guess essentially what we found was that people agreed that community batteries could be part of solving the energy trilemma, but they were focused on different benefits and different risks. So this makes pathways forward in terms of what models we go with and inherently sort of political question requiring some thought and some investment in terms of thinking about what kinds of processes could be put in place to kind of make some of these decisions. So next slide. All right, so here's your sort of one minute of social science theory. So social acceptance, what is this? It's essentially a bundle of decisions that get made at different scales. So engineers, policy makers, special interest groups collectively influence what's seen as technologically possible and households are involved in this as well, obviously with the sort of distributed energy systems that we have available now. They in turn are influenced by media, their friends, their experiences in the world. So up here on the slide you'll see the sort of research questions we're exploring in the project. We look for points of tension between different actors in the energy system, points of agreement about essentially the benefits and the risks of community storage. So from what we understand about technological change to be successful community storage would either have to fit within the existing electricity system, if it can't do so it's got a sort of stretch and transform in some way. So I think I guess what we found is that local storage could fit within the current framework, as Marnie mentioned, it could definitely work with sort of pretty minimal to no regulatory changes. But what you'll see in the rest of the presentation is that community concerns about the nature of the electricity system means that there is the possibility for this to be a bit more disruptive. So in terms of how would we go about looking at these questions about what is it that people think about local storage? Usually we would do a combination of things, desktop analysis, looking at sort of different stakeholders, their submissions, what they've put policy documents, what they've put out there about what they think about a technology. But because community storage is so new, we actually had to go and speak to people and get the story from the horse's mouth, so to speak. So next slide. So what did we do? Well, first of all, in terms of the energy, we spoke with energy professionals and we spoke with people in the community. So in terms of the energy professionals, we started with our project partners to get a sense of their thoughts about local storage and that's because they already had an investment and an idea of what they thought local storage could do. So we spoke with them for an hour or so. We then cast our net wider and ran two focus groups in Sydney and Melbourne. So participants, as you can see here, came sort of from a variety of different parts of the sector, consumer advocacy, government at all levels. We had a good bunch of networks and retailers as well. In terms of the gender split, we couldn't, though we tried to get sort of 50, 50, we couldn't quite get there and so it's a bit of a reflection of the sector as well. So then we, next slide. We went out and did some focus groups out in the community. So in total, we spoke with 52 people in eight different locations and here we were really just aiming to get diversity. So rural, urban, you'll see, it's not always easy to see, but yeah, so we spoke in Melbourne, for instance, with people from culturally and linguistically diverse part of Melbourne. We also wanted to hear from residential battery owners to see what they thought about this idea. And so here we can see we got a bit of a better gender mix. We did also have some representation from renters and apartment owners. Usually people excluded from the renewable energy transition, but the majority of our sample were home owners and lived in houses. Over, just a little bit over half were owners of PV. We'd also really like to do a focus group in Broome to get an Indigenous perspective on this topic, but we've been a bit slowed down with that with COVID. So we're still hoping to run that group, but that analysis is not going to be part of this presentation. Next slide. So in terms of energy professionals, what did they think? Overall, they saw a huge range of benefits that local storage could provide, 18 separate benefits that we found, which is quite something for such an innocuous grey box is an image that you can see on the presentation. So everything from sort of stabilizing the grid, avoiding network upgrades, improving access of renewables to the general community, and even maybe building trust in the NEM. So unsurprisingly different parts of the sector emphasize different benefits. State governments emphasized accessibility, lowering emissions, whereas networks were concerned about reducing network costs. This is important because it will be impossible to design a model that can achieve all of those benefits sort of at the same time. There's going to have to be trade-offs. It was very clear through our discussions with energy sector professionals that there would likely be different models of local storage depending on a whole raft of factors. And of course there were concerns, caveats and challenges that participants identified practical issues like maintenance, installation standards, and then challenges around governance such as ring fencing. None of these were deemed insurmountable. Next slide. So here's Gary from local government saying, are we just trying to achieve the fact that there are people out there who are pushing the idea because it suits their economic benefit? Or are we putting it out there because it actually helps the electricity system? And what this quote demonstrates is I think that it's very important to have the conversation about what the storage is for and who it benefits in the energy system. There's already some concern for instance that PV policies have led to this emergence of a divide between sort of solar haves and have-nots. And so it's important that issues around access and how the savings will be distributed are sort of tackled head-on when we have this conversation about local storage. Quite a few participants mentioned that local government with their renewable targets might make them the sort of first movers in this space. But networks are another obvious sort of group because of the urgency of the technical constraints in some parts of the network that Marnie mentioned already. So what emerged was that we find that local context is important in terms of designing what kind of model might suit. But the energy sector is not used to operating in this way. It means that there's transaction costs in terms of developing the models. So we need to have a conversation about that. Overall, a big tick. This is very sort of energy sector, but very big tick to trials and demonstrations. Everybody agreed that that would be a good way to kind of see whether this could be workable in the future. Next slide. So what did the community say? Well, they had a lot to say about all of this. Overall local storage was seen also very positively. Although and sort of some of the participants actually had a very sophisticated understanding of the technical benefits. But I guess their focus was more on enabling on the fact that it would enable more renewables in the system. It would be it would be local and that they would have greater control over their energy systems. So as Julie says, I imagine myself if there was some sort of community battery scenario, I'd feel I had a lot more power over my usage and that would be really attractive. So the battery in terms of improving reliability. So in an outage was sort of less front of mind. For most participants, most people, even though we have a couple of groups who do experience reliability issues, their focus was really more on the sort of the renewable side of things. Next slide. So really, I guess the emphasis that I wanted to make here was that what people really got excited about what people really talked about was that the issues that they have with the governance of our energy system in Australia. So as Margaret says, community batteries. So as Margaret says, I think we do need to have a conversation or a real debate about whether we do want to see electricity as a social good, not necessarily just as an individual individual good. So I guess community batteries do provide a different way to relate to energy and people really liked the idea of a collective ownership of renewables. So ownership really was critical, which is partly why I suppose local councils again, third party not for profit retailers, nursing home schools, these were the kinds of institutions that people thought would be good to manage the battery. They didn't really see the community themselves as being ideal sort of custodians of the battery because of, you know, there's not a lot of templates, I suppose, for decision making of community assets to be a kind of an enjoyable or an easy process. People didn't have a lot of positive experiences about that. And you could also sort of argue that I guess local government has had a lot of issues in recent years in terms of sort of issues of corruption and so on. But I suppose it was still by and large as a more trusted institution that could be seen to manage the battery. Unsurprisingly, people wanted whatever scheme or whatever model to be sort of simple and understandable and demonstrate that the environmental impact is positive. So this came through a lot more strongly than say with the energy sector professionals. People really wanted to be shown that the battery didn't come from or so sourcing the materials of the battery didn't pose risks in terms of human rights abuses or sort of negative environmental impact. So the life cycle of the battery, things like that. Risks around things like fire and so on were thought to be very manageable. People did raise them, but they weren't very concerned about risks like that. So next slide. So I suppose there are multiple possible models of community batteries that might suit different types of contexts and communities. And the process that is used to come to each model is critical. The community must be involved. So what we saw was that regulatory challenges could be overcome, but sort of broader questions of politics and governance might be more challenging. We also saw in a context where we see that prosumers edging away from the grid. There's narratives of self-sufficiency signalling a desire to kind of disconnect from the system that came through quite strongly in our discussions. But our research also shows that the opposite can be true. Households are excited about the idea of being grid connected through local storage because it's renewable, it's local, it could be community and people talked about keeping money in the community as well. But within our current system, lack of consistent policy settings around this mean that there's a potential for exclusion. So what about communities where there isn't a local government or a network that wants to support the battery? So these kind of bigger picture questions around access are ones that we really need to kind of talk about. And I just wanted to leave you with one little quote from one participant. A lot of the time the community voice isn't heard and I hope that the sort of some of the bits of quotes and discussion that I brought up today showed that the community are really sort of interested in engaging on these issues and that this can be a really valuable voice in our conversations about energy. So I'd like to thank Finally Arena, our funder, and thank you, of course, to all of our participants for making this research possible. And I might end there. Thank you. Terrific. Thank you very much, Heather. And we now have two discussants who would now like to present their perspectives on Marnie and Heather's presentations. The first discussant is Heather Smith. Heather is studying the social dimensions of community storage via microbrids in South Australia where she's undertaking a PhD at the University of Adelaide. So I'd now like to hand over to Heather to hear her perspectives. Thanks, Ken. I'm actually at the University of South Australia and my PhD aims to sit between the social and the technical. So I have an electrical engineering background and I'm also the chair of the Coalition for Community Energy. So this is really interesting research for us and looking at what communities themselves are pushing for when it comes to change in the energy system. So I've got a few quick points to make and some questions. Really, they lead to questions. You know, the first thing that jumps to mind is this tension between collective interest and individual interest. And I've always been thinking that we need to put a value on diversity. And Marnie's slide shows that quite clearly where she shows that if you look at the cost of individual household batteries and the value that produces, you sort of only get half the value that you get if you put those all the same households together in a collective. And we see that with our street transformers. You know, you might have 200 kilowatts at the end of the street. But if the network had to build for each of you having your peak demand at exactly the same time, they would have built 400 kilowatts. And that diversity factor is about 50%. And the networks have always captured that collective value and made the most of it for our community. But of course, things are changing. You know, a few years ago, we never talked about hosting capacity. That 200 kilowatt transformer doesn't give you 200 kilowatts of exports. There's a whole lot of issues with voltages on your system. And so you might only get 60 kilowatts of exports, 60 kilowatts hosting capacity on your system. So thinking about some of those things that define what gets delivered to your home and how they get, how the value can be improved locally and collectively, I think is a really interesting discussion that you've developed here. If we look at some of Eleanor Ostrom's work on governance of the commons, she showed that many communities governed their commons effectively. And one of the keys was the way individuals felt they had a say in how the system was governed. They had a say in what constituted a fair distribution of value. And there was a system for helping people that strayed outside of the social contract to come back in, you know, punishing offenders who use too much water, for example. So I'm really interested to see us developing that idea of what collective governance could work. And I'd be interested if both of you would talk a little bit more to that in a while. Because we've all heard an awful story about getting tangled up in Australia development where you can't get something happening or, you know, there's particular personalities involved. So there's plenty of research on local governance that doesn't work and is dysfunctional. And I think it's time for us to work out what institutions really support us to do that local element properly. So the local circumstances point was another one that you picked up on. You know, we are in a space of change and efficiency is a characteristic of lean machines, lean businesses that work very efficiently and capture all the value, but they're also brittle and they're not good at adapting to change. And having the idea that when we develop community batteries and community energy systems that the systems are going to have to be what each individual community needs, it's sort of an acceptance that we're going to have to be less efficient about this. We're going to have to have more conversations and more deliberation. And we see it in the community energy sector. You know, we have 100 groups and many of them have gone in different directions as they've all tried to work out what is right for their community in developing a community energy system. So one of the areas that I'm interested in you perhaps answering some questions about is the now versus the future. You know, when you ask people about community batteries, how far into the future do we allow them to imagine? If we only imagine them in the context of today's electricity system, we're limiting ourselves and not thinking about the electric vehicles around the corner and the fact that we might bring more heating loads onto our system, which all have a sense of storage themselves. And so that's an element I think that's really important in an energy transition about how we develop good conversations about the future. And the last point I wanted to make was the nuance around value. A value in our electricity system, network prices are flat. We haven't explored, you know, use of the network when it forces new capacity, use of underutilized assets and the difference in value that those things give us. So and that those point right back to where some of the network reforms and unlocking price, I noticed, Marnie, that you've talked in the chat area about knocking distribution use of service charges down to a layered thing where we think about the real local costs and the maybe the 11kv compared to the 240 volt system. And that's obviously that sort of thinking would require a whole lot of reforms in the system. So my last question for you guys is who are the stakeholders for your research? Do they really get it? Do they get the importance of the future, the the unknown-ness and the community bit needing to be part of this conversation and these sort of electricity reforms? Thank you. Hope I didn't talk too much there. Great. Thank you, Heather. So now I'd like to call on our other discussant, Rob Thorman. Rob is the program manager for sustainability and release coordination in suburban land agency in the ACT government. So over to you, Rob. Thank you very much, Ken. And we're really so excited to be involved in this discussion and in a wider emerging partnership that we're developing with the ANU. Just a little bit about the suburban land agency, we are the ACT government's land development agency. We do both greenfields estates and urban infill sites but we sit within the ACT government. So we're guided by the ACT government's policy framework including targets around renewable energy and zero emissions suburbs into the future. So it's an exciting area to be working in. We're looking at opportunities for potentially a number of pilots at different scales but at the moment we're really focusing on the suburb of Jacker above my shoulder on the ironing board is a plan of the suburb that I've brought in from the office and it's about 700 dwellings so it's a good size to be looking at piloting the potential for community-based batteries. So I might step back a little bit and look at some of the initiatives that we have taken in the past. Going back quite a few years with incentivized solar hot water systems through rebates or mandating. More recently in the ACT we've had the experience of Dem and Prospect which mandated solar PV in their estates but that led to the unforeseen situation where too much energy was coming out of the suburb and which was a concern to the energy network. So in the next suburb that we were developing in Malongolo Valley in Whitlam we've looked at rebates for PV but working with Evo Energy to make sure that the network was able to deal with the increased flow of energy coming into the system. But we started looking ahead to the next suburb. Can we be designing the whole suburb so there's more economies of scale? The sort of things that Marnie touched on. And so we've started in the planning stage of Jacker to look at battery storage at community suburb and scale. What does that look like in a technical sense? Do we have a number of small batteries located with substations around the suburb? And that's something we're actively engaged with at the moment working with Evo Energy with the ANU and our state design consultants. But one of the other issues that a few of the speakers today have touched on is the whole governance issue. What is our role as a land developer? Usually we develop the land, we sell it and we do some social programs afterwards but basically we move on. So if we're going to be setting up this bit of infrastructure it's not generally our role to stay involved after the suburb is completed. So how do we go out to tender for a third party to run the system? And what are the benefits that the system potentially provides? So there's certainly network benefits and I think there's a growing awareness of that within the network operators that we can potentially through, there can be services provided by our community-based batteries that can reduce peak load issues so to sort of help manage the network. There's also benefits for our customers, the people who are purchasing land in our estates. So we want to be able to offer cheaper electricity. So whether we mandate that people put PV on or offer incentives or whether we're basically offering something that's too good to refuse like you buy into Jack or it's part of our marketing, you buy into this suburb and you're part of this sort of sense of greater reliance or self-reliance in the suburb but also the financial benefits. So these are some of the issues that we're working through at the moment. So we are part as a government land organisation, we're part of a network of government land organisations around the country and yes it's interesting to watch what's going on with similar organisations to ours around the country. As has been mentioned Western Australia is leading the way. Alkamos was mentioned as an example, that that's a project by our counterparts over there. There's another one at Knutsford and we're a little bit envious that they're able to enter into these projects because they operate under different energy rules. So the question that Marnie posed, are we able to deliver community-based batteries storage program in the East Coast? We certainly want to prove that that's possible and be part of demonstrating that through a pilot. So I think I'll leave that for there in a moment, Ken. If there's any further questions we can address them later. Very, thank you very much Rob. So now's the time for the panel to have a bit of a discussion amongst themselves and maybe I'd like to guide the conversation a little bit in the direction of this local governance question, which seems to be a theme. And I'd like to hear from both Heather and from Marnie on their perspectives on that. Obviously there is an element of social contract here. So people enter into a social contract with their neighbours. As Rob just said, maybe if you move into a new suburb where this type of capability pre-exists, you are automatically signing up to a social contract in some sense. So I'd like to hear from Heather and Marnie that key questions that Heather asked and Rob asked in that context. You'd like to go first? I go first, Heather. So I think you have both sort of hit the exact benefit and complexity of the idea of community batteries, which is who are they for? So at the beginning of this project we were discussing among ourselves what does it mean to have a community battery? Is it still a community battery if it's sitting on the network, but there's no relationship between the battery and the customers? The customers don't even know about the battery, but it still serves an important purpose for the network. So for us, we say that community battery in some way benefits the community, either they own it or they are involved in the management of the battery or they directly benefit from the battery. But it's this tension between whether the battery is there for the community or if the battery is there for the network operator to provide grid support. It sort of gets at the very heart of the fact that the battery benefits a lot of different people. So how you actually put it in in practice, who owns it and who operates it depends how much of a slice of the pie each of those groups get, the network versus the community versus the owner of the battery. Did you have anything else to add, Heather, to that question? Yeah, no, there were fantastic reflections there and I agree with a lot of what Heather's raised and I suppose just for those of you who don't know, Eleanor Ostrom is a Nobel prize winning economist who did some work looking at the management, the commons and her key argument is that there's not one institution that ever gets it right. Government, the market, communities have all failed at managing the commons at various points and so looking at a set of principles for how to manage the commons is a more sort of useful way to think about how we do this moving forward and her work has been applied in a lot of different contexts and has been found to be true and relevant across again a lot of contexts, this idea that you know having faith in the market or the government or the community is not necessarily the most useful way forward. So yeah, I think there's a lot of potential to think about think about the battery, think about the electricity system more broadly as the commons and yeah I'm very interested in having more conversations with people about that. And I did a little bit of work for Six Councils South of Adelaide and when I was looking at local governance and local systems, one of the models that appeared was Bendigo Bank. So their community banks are actually, they actually have the force of the big guy sitting behind them and they, I imagine that could be your network has a relationship with the community battery and provides a lot of the technical support and the backup but in these community banks they actually have local ownership and local operation and local purpose and they're in places that Bendigo Bank doesn't want to hold a bank anymore. So it thrives on the value that the community wants that bank there and I thought yeah maybe that's the model that might you know we could dip our toe in the water with. The networks are being forced to be a lot more consultative but they're not being forced to be specific to individual communities but what would it look like if they started to interact with communities in some sort of governance format that helps drive what communities want and the ownership thing sits at the heart of this you know everyone throws up their hands and says networks can't own this. One of the community energy groups I work for is Karina and we give interest-free loans to community buildings. Well why wouldn't you put your community battery on your community building and build around that space exactly what you need to help the network, to help the community in emergencies all those sorts of things you could bring together if you imagined it that way. Can I just come in here as well? One of the challenges that we've got is when we go out to the market to find a operator of the of the battery system that we set up there are going to be multiple benefits there's going to be benefits to the network there's going to be benefits to the community who move into the estate there's also going to be the ability the operator to make money on the through arbitrage the short-term fluctuations in the in the energy network. How do we put together a package when we go out to market who are going to be the primary beneficiaries of the battery storage how do we balance that how do we develop a set of criteria to go out to find a participant and this is something we're wanting to do a little bit of research on to look at what are the different costs and benefits and how maybe we might even have to design the network in a different way it may be that small batteries throughout the suburb works really well for the energy network but for someone who's operating the system to make money it may be better to have a larger battery so we even before we design the technical aspects we need to sort out some of those those governance issues and the the costs and benefits to various participants. You have to show the world how to do it Rob. Thanks Marnie we'll do that together. Okay so just one more question for the panel before we go to the general questions and we're building up dozens of those. So as we know the there has been a coag paper released about two-sided markets and and this is to address the problem of curtailment of solar which is happening as we speak so this is not a theoretical issue it's a real problem so is there a way in which this discussion around community batteries can inform the curtailment issues and indeed how do we go about injecting this into the two-way market or the two-sided market discussion? So I guess the the two-sided market is really about trying to pay customers for the service that they're providing to the grid in the right way. I mean at the moment solar exporters are getting paid a feed-in tariff and sometimes that's not a fair payment because they're actually causing more issues for the for the grid than they should be paid for so it's about trying to work out what is the appropriate amount of money to pay the customers for the service that they're either providing or being provided with and where the batteries fit in is making better use of the energy services that the customers can provide so rather than you know the customers are producing all this solar PV it's too much and we have to just curtail it it's better to actually make the best use of that CV of that PV put it into the battery to use later on in the afternoon I mean the evening so I see that the battery fits in really well with the two-sided market yeah and you also don't really need I mean yeah you can you could argue all day about them the changes to the market that are required but I see that the battery could fit in with with either model because it's really about just making the best use of the service that the customer can provide for the grid okay so community energy system in Denmark it had two wind turbines a cogeneration plant some solar hot water a big hot water tank to use surplus energy it was doing it for a town of 300 people and the operator of that plant was still fairly naive about how he was acting with the market because he was going through an aggregator so in fact the technical expertise that he had to operate and optimize was still it was enough but it wasn't big market looking and it certainly wasn't this is so available to everyday people so I think the two-way grid is interesting obviously we might get there and that might be the thing but the very centralized nature of it might make it a game that 10% of our population plays but the other 90% just ignore and and down at the local level there's still plenty of value to go find so I'm intrigued very good well on that mate we might now move to questions from the audience and as I said there are lots of those we'll continue answering questions after one o'clock but if those of you wish to leave then would like to do so then that's that's all good so let's go back to some of the earlier questions so I have a question here from Mark Ballesteros who asks do the results to date for the community battery at alkemos in WA support the modeled results both economic and technical that you're getting that's a great question thanks to Mark we we are we've just started speaking with the people who are running that battery so I can't answer for sure it must be working technically well because they're rolling out another 10 or so batteries over the coming year so technically for sure it's doing the job economically I'm I'm unsure but that's a good idea that we should follow up with them thanks Mark great uh so Hamish McKenzie says if original town and the name were to develop a feasibility study for a community-owned battery is it possible to do that study or even actually construct an operator grid connected battery without policy change to allow sale of electricity to the grid and so um sort of so they uh you know to sell electricity to the grid you have to be a licensed retailer obviously so so you have to fit the bill to to be able to apply to to become one of those retailers um so it's not such an issue with selling electricity to and from the grid from your battery what's a little bit more uh what probably needs a real change in the near term is if you want to buy and sell energy from customers to the battery it would work a lot better if we could reduce the price that's charged to transport that energy at the moment it's the same price whether you're transporting you know from my house to the neighbor or from my house to Queensland so if you could reduce that price to be reduced then that would incentivize the buying and selling of the energy locally to and from the battery so what we see in our modeling is if we don't have that um energy transport price which is called duos if we don't have it reduced then it doesn't doesn't really work as a battery for customers um actually I'll just add that that that is a um slated rule change so it's it's possibly going to change in the new future sorry Hedda oh just to quickly add that that's exactly what our participants told us who the the kind of participants um that we're exploring these options and um and I guess this comes back to the kind of the value of trials and demonstrations and and sort of regulatory sand pits because you can sort of hold off on some of these um on some of these rules and then sort of see what happens and um and and people really um value sorry people really value that they they really value the sort of um seeing something tangible not just the kind of abstract modeling which is important and it's important groundwork but we heard sort of time and time again that that there's nothing more convincing than an actual sort of yep seeing a battery's working like you know we've already talked about our speech a few times um so the power of a demonstration and the community energy sector in Victoria have been advocating for a feeding tariff targeted at that exact problem right if you build if your community energy group build an appropriately scaled generator for your town um why should it get tangled up with only getting half the value because really it is doing the network value and it shouldn't have to miss out on that value of network charges as well okay very good so uh coming up to this social contract question there's a question here from Ellen Roberts which is interesting so it says what are the options for non-solar households accessing energy storage in a community battery are there models for that anywhere or overseas solar gardens model um sorry money do you want to go first the the solar gardens model um in the us works perfectly fine because local government own the system and they are the retailer and they say i'm in an offset this um electricity from your solar panel with your bill which even though the solar panel is in a different location to the bill and um uni of new south wales or um UTS one of those uh has been doing a bunch of work um on trying to look at solar gardens in Australia but it it points back to the reforms end of things um depending on how you structure the project so and over in new south wales which is a small community owned retailer in the northern rivers have put the solar panels inside a customer premises and they're as a retailer they have the freedom to say this solar panel owns to you it belongs to you and you are a customer on my network so i'll just trade those off um but they had to do it behind the meter to make it work uh amongst within the rules of the name as it stands yeah maybe i'll just add one thing which is um the battery and alchemy speech and some other models that have been talked about are the type where you um allocate for each customer a certain capacity of the battery say 10 kilowatt hours or so so then you would need to have solar pv to store in the community battery to use later so that's one model but there are other models where you wouldn't have to have solar pv you could just have a trading relationship with the battery but just really quickly just add that um i'm seeing a few questions about so looking at overseas and what's happening overseas um i think we have to remember that we are really world leading and that the technological imperative that's sort of pushing the community battery idea to be um or one of is um to be a viable option is is the kind of the parts of the network that have um such a high density of of pv on them and that's you know we're we're sort of world leading in that in that regard um so for instance with the social research i only found one other study um in the uk actually about what is it you know what do people think of the shared battery kind of concept so um i think we have to stop looking overseas i think we have to just um look look to us and look to to finding solutions in australia well i think it's fair to say that while we're world leading with pv installations and maybe batteries and other things uh community-based renewable energy overseas is actually well ahead of australian terms of adoption germany is a wonderful example of that but denmark and you can look at lots of places we're not so good in australia on the community aspects of things so far at least um and these studies that we're talking about today are really pathfinders in a sense for us yeah i'd just like to quickly add on that because it's something that actually came came up within the data within within the focus groups and it's something that i've subsequently went out to sort of experts in in citizen um deliberation in australia we have some world leading experts on this topic even at a new carolin hindricks for example and so just i was just really curious to see this in the data that people didn't really have a lot of faith in in community and so people actually talked about oh in germany they're doing community energy maybe this is something that australian culture this is something that we can't we can't do um and so i just i think this is something that's really interesting that's come from the data um and so explains why people go oh local government's a good option um but you know community energy i'm not so sure i'm not so sure about this idea of kind of community um driving driving this so something and i'd like to kind of kind of look look a bit more into um yeah well picked up can thank you um let's move on to another question um so uh there's a question uh here from um uh from uh john pemberton uh so john asked head i have you tested community reaction to possible peer to peer trading um uh this i feel would be welcome if it could be enabled with sensible polls and wise access rules um ask about peer to peer trading specifically within our focus scripts because our focus was was really on the sort of shared battery and that was there was already so much to talk about um you know i had to cut people off at the one hour plus mark often um but yeah sort of emerged organically this idea of peer to peer trading um one participant sort of said that that was something that he would really like to do because he owns a couple particularly because he owns a couple of properties so this idea of um you know sort of selling selling his excess or giving his excess energy to his his other property um and micro grids um which is a you know focus of heather's work came up also organically um it's uh people didn't always use that term but this idea of sometimes they use this language of kind of federated um uh sort of bits of the network came up which i thought was interesting and i just to re-emphasize this point that you know people have ideas about energy futures um heather says we need to have this conversation and i absolutely agree with that um you know they're not just a blank slate that um you know we in the energy sector need to do all the work and think up the solutions for the for the for the energy future people um have ideas um and some really exciting and original ideas i think about what what that could look like okay so uh we have a question uh from john sodavow and and maybe rob could have some input into this maybe heather and others um did you find any difference in community views between community batteries being retrofitted to an existing community versus those being integrated into a new plan development so in other words you know having a social contract on top of what is already there or a social contract when you enter into a community yeah well just from from the perspective of the land developer um it's far preferable to do it from the outset to um the idea well we as an as an entity we wouldn't be involved in retrofitting that would be something that would um yeah be and would be quite a disruptive process i would imagine when we design a suburb you're integrating all of the different infrastructure in the planning and and how the water the sewer the electricity the um it connections all of that works with your footpaths your roads um so it's it's far more economical to do it at the outset um and to sort out these governance issues in advance so i i probably can't talk on the retrofitting but i would say um that yeah it's far preferable to do it in a like in a greenfield situation from the outset and heather what about the community attitudes on those two yeah it pretty pretty agrees with sort of i mean like everybody was was keen but people definitely thought that it would be like had the idea oh yeah if it's a new development that would be easier people understood intuitively that greenfield sites would be um and our energy sector professionals mentioned that as well greenfield sites are obviously um a really you know if you're looking at sort of low hanging fruit that that would be the place to start and so it's not a coincidence that that wrong exploring this this option yeah and the other thing is um i'm still off mute yeah the other thing is the design of the individual houses so it's not only the layout of the estate if if you're starting with the vision with the outset at the outset to uh this is going to be an integral part of the suburb we make sure we've got north facing roof planes how the buildings relate to each other so you're designing not only the estate but the built form from the outset i guess just quickly to add then um i guess the differences you could see would be that rural people sort of didn't have an issue about space within an urban context people did mention that you know land um land value and finding location would be an issue um so you know people were did express a couple of people did express some concerns about property prices and mentioned you know petrol if you you know if you've got a house next to a petrol station that that brings down the value so people were kind of conscious of that um there is i suppose a prospect of we we have heard of the idea of kind of building them underground which would reduce the kind of visual impact another community member sort of talked about you know using it as an opportunity for some community artworks um so you know i think people will relate to the battery differently depending on again how the community is kind of involved involved in that process of of um of installation okay we might move to another question so Jessica Stuart asks a question about scale and i think money you've touched on this very early in the piece um so in terms of the the not only the size of the community but the size of the battery that we're talking about here uh is there some issue regarding viability when it comes to the the actual physical uh size of the of the system that has been used by by a group sharing a facility like this in other words you know can you do this with lots of small scale you know pad mount substation systems or do you have you know 10 megawatt size batteries dealing with lots of people yeah it's a really good question um i guess i mean the sort of batteries that we're talking about yeah which are trading with um local customers we're really looking at putting the battery on the low voltage network and that decision impacts the ultimate scale of the battery so um if it's on the low voltage network then you probably limited to on the order of a few megawatt megawatt hour um say one to three um but yeah if it's if it's on the medium voltage network or or above then you can have a larger battery obviously that brings benefits because the bigger the battery the more money you can make trading on the energy market and what we see which is interesting from our results um for the cost benefits is that the batteries um make the most money from the f-cast market at the moment f-cast market is very lucrative at the moment we don't know what's going to happen to it in the future so you you probably wouldn't want to bank on it um but at the moment that's that's very lucrative so the bigger the battery the more money you can make in that way so i yeah if i was buying one myself i'd try to get the biggest i could put on um on the low voltage network if that's where you know you need it to to provide the network service it's always it's a matter of pricing the service that the battery can provide appropriately and that's true i mean the Tesla battery in south austria makes a lot of money out of frequency control so so that's true so this touches on a question um that we had earlier um from chris wallin um so was there any discussion with the the people that you talked to about the income coming potentially from frequency regulation the f-cast market in addition to the arbitrage the storage of energy for a sale of a later time so did that become part of the discussion or was that just completely outside the the scope of what you uh considered is that a question for header about what people thought or about our models in particular for header oh yeah um the questions that we asked were relatively open ended um because um because of the kind of uh potential for these these sorts of models to do more or less anything um so yeah f-cast um certainly came up um and and this is what and this is why it came down to sort of different models different benefits if you're designing a model to make the most money then um you know then that has governance implications about who who owns the battery and who runs the battery and all these kinds of things so they can't we can't sort of untangle all of these all of these questions um around value and governance and ownership um within the community there was definitely a couple of energy sort of uh you know enthusiasts who you know love the idea of kind of trading um themselves and within the electricity market they're really sort of engaged um and then other people were really sort of against the market based thinking um i think the extent of suspicion and skepticism about privatization is something that we haven't probably talked about enough within the energy conversation um pretty much every focus group people talked about concerns at that with privatization marketization of energy which they saw as an essential service so they made analogies with public transport with water um so um i guess you know when you start talking about these kind of market approaches people respond very differently some people a minority i would say are comfortable with the idea um but then a lot of people just um sort of almost i would say they use the word political they use the word ideological they sort of like that question about is this a social good is this an individual good people even sort of one participant even use the term you know are we commies or are we capitalists um you know so all we asked was what do you think about local storage and we got these incredibly rich responses around the governance of the energy system um and you know you'll have to read the report to get more of uh get more detail more of an insight and some really great quotes um from people and it certainly surprised me the the level of um feeling on this issue maybe it doesn't surprise heather but um uh yeah so money in the model did you include any f-cass income in that or was it purely arbitrage so i include f-cass when the battery is allowed is owned by someone who can make money through f-cass so they basically look at four models two models are owned by a third party which could be a local council or a community group or a private operator they those people can make money from f-cass um and i look at two models that are owned by a network and then the network is not allowed to to trade but what what would be an interesting model and i i actually do include this the network can lease a part of the battery to a third party to do trading on f-cass so the short answer is yes we look at f-cass okay so now let's talk about um uh you know this question of uh that what level does government get involved so lisa stebel asks about the regulatory barriers that it need to be addressed before you can deploy community batteries in the NEM um and ask are there state by state differences and then i'll link this with another question from mary and ray which is is there a role for the federal government or at least for co-agenergy ministers meetings uh in trying to uh operationalize community batteries as a real prospect i'd like to add something to the last question that links to the state by state differences here so um the if i give an example of a street transformer um serving 80 odd households and having voltage issues uh the s-a power networks gave us three options to solve that so this is a problem that isn't a problem until it is and and then it's a it's a problem a short-term problem for s-a power networks till they solve it they could put in a 80 000 new line that's a thousand dollars a customer they couldn't limit everybody's solar exports that's um 300 dollars a customer and they could put in some sort of dynamic system that just limits those exports at at at the peak time which is 10 dollars a customer and none of that discussion is talked about the other half of the residents who don't have solar on their rooms but might like it so the cost of that problem is unevenly shared it's at the moment it's being mainly caused by the problem the person furthest away from the street transformer has the biggest voltage issues so they've got the biggest problem um so so the the way those problems are unevenly shared across the community is quite important now to bring back to the question about local differences even within the same regulatory regime the different networks are grappling with these problems in different ways and so that's giving a different experience if you are trying to put a community battery in different network areas any other comments um i just wanted to add that with respect to federal um policy so the energy security board um which is a coag group there they are actively looking at um these and related issues so they're looking at the issues of how do we reprice the market like the two-way market that you were talking about ken um and also they are look actively looking at community batteries and community scale storage so yeah it's all it's all marching forward as you would hope good well you've still got around 150 people online so we might keep going with the questions a little longer um so we have a question uh here from erin midson uh who talks about uh life cycle environmental issues okay so uh in other words uh what about uh the management of these community battery systems at the end of their life uh how does battery disposal work uh what is the average lifetime of community batteries you know who deals with environmental um fall out from uh from you know the battery uh technology that needs to then be somehow ameliorated and then of course there's a replacement you know who does the maintenance and the replacement and all the rest of it to make this an ongoing proposition and is this an issue that we push straight into the electricity industry as having to deal with because we're starting to see solar panels um being dumped uh from the first wave of our solar panel investments um and we're only just starting to see the waste regulators deal with what is that back end of the life issues that they need to to deal with so i think there's all of these sustainability life cycle questions need to be embedded in our systems a little bit better right from the start but of course we could say that about carbon emissions and just get ourselves sunk into a debate we don't need to have on this webinar i can hear the um pumped hydro and the hydro people saying this is why you should use just hydro for storage because you have a much longer life cycle but um i mean one thing to point out is that there there's quite a lot of research into repurposing of batteries so even within our program we're looking at repurposing batteries after they've been used up in electric vehicles and then recycling of batteries so that doesn't answer the question to who pays for it but it's certainly um it's not like you finish up and chuck it away it's it's recycled and repurposed just to quickly add that i agree with heather i think um you know this needs to be institutionalized and um and it's a really live issue for the community there's enough awareness about battery toxicity and um it was um it was definitely sort of up there with probably the biggest concern that people had with the idea despite all the enthusiasm um so you know um i think just like we're seeing with COVID you know the role of government is being reimagined as changing is changing um in this context because of a of a pandemic but i suppose you know you can see the energy transition in a similar sort of way as a challenge to to the roles of the various kind of actors in the system and uh and that's certainly one that i think is is pretty key in terms of community batteries um so we have another question from Vivian Griffith who's moving the discussion a little bit away from kind of residential communities to more business communities so would a community battery also work in let's say an industrial estate where there's a you know a single major landlord and lots and lots of different renters that utilize that that particular industrial estate could this be applied to the commercial and industrial sector as well as the residential sector perhaps i'll have a go at that um i mean in some ways that can make it a lot easier because if the battery is behind the meter then it's um it's a lot more straightforward because you don't have to worry about the energy that's being um charged and discharged to the battery being settled on the NEM um on the other hand if you have customers um that the battery is serving behind that meter um so what we call embedded networks then it it becomes uh complex again because we have a rule that customers uh have the right to choose who they buy their electricity from so you can't have set up a system where people are locked in to to not having a choice about about where they buy their electricity from but um but really yeah the com the complexities come when you put the battery in front of the meter that's where we have to start looking at regulation change in the embedded networks space i mean we know we've got lots of even just an individual building with lots of tenants in it um i'm quite interested that the market model has been some of these uh professional billing companies who take on board all the energy issues in your embedded network we've seen the regulator come in recently and try to tighten the experience for a tenant in an embedded network versus a normal residential customer so that those embedded network operators are held to the same standards but one of my criticisms of these billing companies is they've never done any of the big value for residents value for tenants work that they could do on energy efficiency and demand management and the things that could make the whole much cheaper for everybody or a little bit cheaper for everybody now is that because that's just hard work or is it because they're set up from the wrong incentive point to start off with and so that there's not enough how to how to get that value into the system and have it recognised by everybody very good so we might now move towards the final question and this is a bit of an interesting research question we have from Bob Webb um so he's talking about understanding the community view and he asks how do you get the voice of the broader and perhaps maybe not as well informed community uh on on these questions and issues as opposed to maybe people who are enthusiastic and kind of want to do this sort of thing anyway how do you how do you tap into wider community understanding and and uh you know decision making to adopt this sort of thing rather than concentrate on people who are already partly in the game at least yeah now recruitment is obviously a big a big topic in these sort of research methodologies that we're doing um so for our study we um we gave a $50 gift voucher it sounds like a very simple simple um thing sort of a woolly's $50 gift voucher that's being found fairly consistently to kind of reduce that um that risk of just sort of the the entities coming along and I would certainly say based on quite a few of our focus groups um that you know we had we had good representation of people who you know um didn't know very much about energy um and yes we had the keen beans along but we wanted the keen beans as well because keen beans were solar um and so our prospective kind of users of something like this shared that I suppose in terms of more broadly your question about sort of ways forward um you might have heard of kind of terms like citizens juries um or deliberative democracy or town hall or many publics um there are a lot of kind of really um interesting um and by now quite well established sort of um citizens engagement type formats that require organization great facilitation resources um so you might have heard um not sure what's up to at the moment but there was um this sort of a citizens jury process happening in France at a national scale um to explore um how to tackle climate change and in these kinds of contexts people are randomly selected to get a broad representation across the community people are paid for their time they are given information from experts and time to liberate um over sort of maybe even a series of um so you just google sort of um or there's a participator in fact there's a kind of Wikipedia of examples of innovations where citizens are sort of involved in decision making this is not something that's um terribly new we've been doing it for quite a while now um and I think I think the energy sector is kind of poised to do a lot more of it actually we had a citizens jury in the ACT run by a local um expert on deliberative democracy um on on gas so you can also google that and check out you know what it is that people um you know came up with some recommendations on on that um so yeah I hope I've answered that question um I've got a couple of points I'd like to make on that um as the land developer we sell land to basically two groups it's the um in purchases individuals and families and uh and to developers um and so there's different um different messages and different motivations um what we found in the market research that we've been doing leading up to our incentives package for Whitlam was people generally want to do the right thing about the environment but it's very complex there's a lot of decisions and so what we've found is providing the information making it easy for them so we've come up with a package of so you get a rebate so as a financial incentive you get a $10,000 rebate if you put in five kilowatts of PV um electric heating and cooking electric charge point for an EV um an EV charge point in the garage and the other the other thing is an energy management system so that's a package we've done the research um and we made it easy for people and we've given them a financial incentive in terms of the community battery I think the biggest thing for to get to everybody is it just makes economic sense you're going to it's going to save you money um and if if that's I mean that's going to be where we really make a difference when we can demonstrate to people that it's not only good for the environment but it's going to save money um in in terms of your energy bills ongoing and that's really important with the people we're dealing with because they're about to you know take out big loans they're going to buy a piece of land and then go through the building process and there's always going to be that sort of value management exercise as you know is it the is it the kitchen bench top or the sustainability feature that I'm going to put money in so you really need to be able to address it from a financial perspective and from the developer's perspective as well like one of our challenges is are they going to put in an ongoing energy inefficient hot water system that's cheaper up front or how do we incentivize or mandate um in something that might cost a little bit more up front but the long term running costs are lower so yeah there's different different targets or ways of targeting those those different um our customers basically thanks very good so we might leave it there we're after 130 now and although we still have 100 or so people on the line uh I think this has been a terrific discussion we've had uh well over 300 participants I noticed there and uh and and so that's been a great opportunity to get some of the research that we do here in the energy change institute out there and to discuss some key issues on energy matters that that the wider community are interested in hearing so uh let me thank again our two speakers head of rants and cooper and money shore our two discussants head of smith and rob thorman and uh let me thank you the audience for your excellent questions and we look forward to your participation not only in our energy conversations which we hold quarterly uh we do this uh in collaboration with the Australian Institute of Energy uh but also in the uh seminar series that the energy change institute runs uh and you'll see this on our website we'll be looking at uh putting uh some more topics uh out there not just our own research but in other areas as well in the in the coming months so thank you all very much for participating and we look forward to seeing you uh at our next webinar thank you all