 Hello everyone. Welcome to our session today on Stakeholder Capitalism, Building the Future. We have a fantastic panel with us. We're going to start this session with the expert on Stakeholder Capitalism, the web chairman and founder, Klaus Schwab. Klaus has a new book out today on this subject that we'll launch our panel and then we'll join in a broader discussion. Klaus, welcome. Thank you very much, Edward. It's really a very important moment, not just because I'm publishing a book, but we are witnessing a mindset change. I think we are moving from the priority of short-term shareholder profit maximization to a world which is characterized much more by stakeholder responsibility. The COVID crisis has shown us that companies which were committed to the stakeholder concept have performed much better because they have invested into the long-term vitality of the company. So what we have to do now and what is very important is to walk the talk. And walking the talk means not just to talk about stakeholder capitalism, but also to establish a framework of metrics which allow everybody to see that a company is performing according to the ESG criteria. So the International Business Council of the World Economic Forum has undertaken the task, together with the four big audit companies, to develop such a comprehensive system which allows not only a reporting process companies can be really measured, but which allows also to see progress companies are making, similar to the financial reporting system. I feel this mindset change is essential if we want to move from a world which is just based on material objectives like GDP and so on, to a world which is much more conscious of the well-being of people. And I think the COVID crisis has shown us that we have to pay more attention to the well-being and this means that I come back a change in the approach of business philosophy to move really to a large-scale stakeholder capitalism. So this is a book you were writing, you had started writing before the pandemic, it's really a book you've been writing for 50 years. But you were working on this book then as you write in the book, February of 2020 comes and you had what you call an ACBC moment realizing that everything was about to change, there was an after COVID world and a before COVID world that were going to be nothing alike. Can you talk about how the pandemic not just shifted your thinking on stakeholder capitalism but the landscape that it operates in? I think the notion of stakeholder capitalism is old one. I wrote about it 50 years ago and we should not forget that last year a major change happened when the US business roundtable which represents major companies in the United States actually issued a statement embracing the stakeholder concept. Now what has happened with the crisis, with the corona crisis is showing us that people expect more from governments and business not just material satisfaction but security for example in terms of health services. But what we also have learned is that all those services related to cleaning up the environment, providing the necessary diversity inside companies and society, this cannot only undertaken by governments or by business alone or by civil society alone, we really need public-private cooperation. So the crisis has shown us we need a mindset change and we need also to move from a society where business and governments have very separate tasks to a society where two together with civil society work hand in hand. How different do you think the book is the final form of the book versus where it would have was headed prior to that moment, that realization in February? I think as the big changes the people are much more open today compared to a year ago where we felt or being in a society which is well-doing and so on. Now they have noticed the fragility of global society. So we went from crisis to extreme crisis in a way, health crisis, economic crisis, inequality crisis, trust crisis, democracy crisis and that has spurred this openness. So everybody went into panic mode. We all did around this time last year. Obviously some companies fared extremely well in the pandemic but of course far more. Quickly small businesses have suffered terribly. How has that impacted not the philosophy of stakeholder capitalism but the ability of companies across the spectrum to execute it? You ask me? Yes. Yes, question to you and then we'll open to the group. No, what we are seeing frankly is companies now really engage and I see it in terms of our different initiatives. The forum has about 100 initiatives related to climate issues related to creating jobs and so on. What we are seeing is at least multinational big companies engage much more compared to a year ago. I think they have listened to the people who have great expectations today. Expectations which means that they have to exercise stakeholder responsibility. I guess I was really asking about the smaller companies that have suffered much more and for whom survival minute by minute is such a focus right now. Is it playing out at all beyond big companies? I mean for this to really grow obviously it's got to go beyond the largest companies and include the way everybody thinks about capitalism and their employees and their community. No, it's my big concern because smaller medium-sized companies have been much more hit by the crisis compared to large companies or most large companies. So I'm very pleased and I think it's a task of society to take care because they are an essential part of our economic tissue. So we have to make sure that it's not the default that they can survive the crisis because we need at the end of the crisis we need still a prospering middle class in the as far as companies are concerned. Thank you. Let's now open it up to our terrific panel. We have to introduce them and I don't think I introduced myself at the beginning. I'm Edward Felzenthal. I'm the editor-in-chief and CEO of Time and I'm joined today by Professor Klaus whom you just heard from also by Mariana Mazucato a professor at University College London where there's snow on the ground I gather. She's also the author of a new book coming out this week right? Yeah. Mission Economy A Moonshot Guide to Changing Capitalism. We have with us Dan Schulman the president and CEO of PayPal where he's been since 2014. We have four-time Grammy Award winner the amazing Angelique Kidjo musician, UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador. Great to have you here with us from Paris and we have Alexander Dekru the prime minister of Belgium, prime minister Dekru. You as well. I want to start with you in part because I know you have to just to let the audience know you've got can't imagine what's on your to-do list every day but I know you have to leave a few minutes. Let's let's you took over as prime minister in October country with one of the highest death tolls per capita death rates in the world certainly in Europe facing a massive economic recession the worst in probably a hundred years. I guess I'll say in that context how are you and and give us a sense you know it's it's been a few months. Where do you assess the recovery both the health recovery and the economic recovery given what you what you faced coming into office? Well first of all thank you for the invitation and a discussion which I think is a very very timely one. One thing I would like to start off with is that over the last years all of us in the public on the public side and the private side we've been talking so much about trust and this is a moment to not talk about trust but to show that we can be trustworthy and it's an incredibly difficult time to do so because we're confronted to something which is new to most of us which is new to the public. I think the western European public is confronted to a level of vulnerability that we thought was not there. I mean we would live a safe life and never be confronted to anything like that and so in these very unstable times showing that we can create trust with all the things that happened which which you could not know in advance and seeing actually week by week that we're confronted to something to something new is I would say in politics it's a new sport in politics. I have to say I feel much more as a coach of the population than I have ever been. This is about keeping people motivated. This is about explaining the things we know but also explaining the things we don't know. It's very often also telling that we have made a decision and we thought it was the right decision because of these reasons but it is clear now that actually it maybe was not the right the right decision and really trying to explain to everyone we are a population of 11 million that we are a team of 11 million and that as a team we can beat this. We actually did a communication campaign around that as well and really convincing every person that everyone in their own individual action has an impact on this crisis has an impact on its own health and especially an impact on the health of everyone and maybe to conclude with that I think that element that people now are convinced of in the in the medical in the health sphere if we could keep that and keep that mindset in the recovery being also an economic recovery my own actions have an impact on myself but have an impact on on the society I think that would be a great thing if if we could take that out of this crisis I think it will be one of the determining elements to to to economically get out of this crisis. Let's let's talk about trust for a moment. It'll be a running theme throughout the discussion. We've talked about just now the the teamwork part of trust the the collaboration that's required to establish trust the deliverables that are required to establish trust. What about something I think about in my role all the time and I'm sure you do and all of us do the connection between truth and trust and this crisis we're facing I didn't even mention as I ticked them off earlier around misinformation. How do you think about and combating combating misinformation as you try to build this this team? We are confronted with that every day now we have we are in an atmosphere where there are experts that they're basically growing out of the ground experts in everything especially a lot of obviously virologists and vaccinologists and so on they have a very broad audience in the in the belgium press I would say that there's even there's almost more space for for experts in the in a medical in a medical domain than there is place for for politicians and maybe that's not wrong. I think we find a way where the expert voices and the political voices work together often we get sometimes a bit on each other's domain and that does create some tension from time to time but very often and I've often said it look if you if you want to be convinced that being vaccinated is a good thing I'm not going to convince you listen to a vaccinologist listen to an expert I am going to get vaccinated I'm convinced but if you have doubts then listen to the experts and and and science should be able to to convince you I think that this is a great moment to make a link between expert scientists give them give them an audience and politicians policy makers and and so on now does this mean that there are no wild conspiracy theories going around no obviously not but if you look at the the share of people who are willing to get vaccinated is actually quite high in belgium it's somewhere between 75 and 80 which is which is incredibly incredibly high the trust discussion is now also more and more towards the cooperation between governments and the vaccine producing companies there are very high hopes a lot of people the light at the end of the tunnel they see is the vaccine the fact that there are now delays in the production and and and is something extremely hard for the copulate population to to cope with because it seems that that light at the end of the tunnel it's it's basically going through their hands that's a hard one and I think more transparency from the corporate side on what is going on and explaining that producing a vaccine is a bit more complicated than baking bread is is is a message that that should get across more often and the science around the variants which we're still struggling to understand I I have so many questions across the panel but I before we move on I I would love to when I'm sure the audience would love to to just get your you just gave a sense of it the the blurry light at the end of the tunnel but but we're we're we're you're two and a half months in how do you how do you see where Belgium is right now are you at a moment of optimism pessimism somewhere somewhere in the middle with all the challenges well we we've had an extremely difficult second wave we have been able in eight weeks eight weeks time to move from the worst country in Europe to today one of the best countries there there's not that many countries that are in a better situation than us but still a very worrying situation and we will do everything to keep that rather advantageous situation that we that we have my view is that vaccination will of course come up to speed and the months of February and March are going to be very difficult because the active population at large is not yet in the scope of vaccination but once that starts and that will be March March April I would think that rapidly we will start open again public life and restaurants and bars and and and so on and that will have a huge impact on the way we look at the future today it's hard I mean end of January February these are the dark months in general and people are extremely fed up with this so I would hope that the coming weeks are the hardest ones and that when the sun is coming that the light of the vaccines will be will be shining into people's minds as well thank you I hope so um Mariano Mariano Mazzucato you've been everywhere during this pandemic advising the Pope working with the World Health Organization also writing for Time Magazine and I want to talk about your book but but I but you wrote a really provocative piece for us here in our our issue the great reset which we did in partnership with the forum in which you went through a really fascinating thought exercise imagining we're in 2023 end of 2023 the same people a different society that that we we succeeded that the the light was there at the end of the tunnel that we made that we made progress on all these issues where we need a reset where the crisis is um prompting reset what does that look like um in three years if if we get it right and and how how did we do it um from that perspective great and thanks for both asking me to write that piece and to join this panel again so really at the center of both my new book on um emission economy but also that piece is the idea that you know Klaus's wonderful concept of stakeholder capitalism can't just be about corporate governance and how the corporate world interacts with you know different stakeholders that actually has to go to the center of how we design our capitalist system because there's different ways to do that and we unfortunately have really a wrong design uh both in terms again of the whole issue of shareholder maximization versus this kind of more purpose driven stakeholder uh value concept but really you know the nitty gritty of how business interacts with government and with the broader kind of you know civil society organizations and I think what COVID has done which is fantastic is it's really highlighted how we can do things differently but we need to start normalizing it it can't just be during a crisis just you know quick example what we've seen this time around which we didn't see in the financial crisis and I hope we see post COVID hence you know the importance of the piece going to 2023 is for example that the bailouts that have been provided to different industries globally for example the ones that have been really hard hit like airlines because they're not flying as much have been in some countries and I come back to this issue of heterogeneity not every country has done this the same um those bailouts to airlines but also to autos in some countries have been conditional on the companies receiving the public benefit to commit to reducing their carbon emissions this happened in France where Macron was very clear he said we're not here just to bail you out we want to help you transform because otherwise we shouldn't use the word build back better or in Austria and Denmark they also made the bailouts conditional on companies not using tax havens you know it's not rocket science let's do that in the US even the US care act had a bit of a seed for something that didn't actually then happen but there was discussion about it that companies receiving bailouts can't just use that money to say buy back their shares in the last 10 years four trillion dollars have been used by companies just to buy back shares to boost stock prices stock options executive pay so how do we bring that notion of a social contract to the center of this notion of purpose and a more purposeful system personally I think unless it's conditional it's not going to happen but the word condition kind of sounds negative it sounds like someone has a stick over your head we need to change that too this really needs to be a better win-win about building back better and those companies interested in long-term growth really need to radically change how they're working with governments and I'm a bit less optimistic by the way of what we're seeing you know it's great we have a vaccine for example or almost in terms of a complete rollout but the way it's being governed is still problematic in a truly symbiotic and mutualistic ecosystem in different areas including health and specifically around the vaccine would make sure for example to govern the intellectual property rights in a way that really foster what Dr. Tedros and and who talks about collective intelligence so using a patent pool Pfizer has not signed up to that we should make sure that the prices of the vaccines actually take into account the public contribution you know there's been lots of different governments that have contributed not only to this vaccine but also to the different drugs like remdesivir and historically almost all blockbuster drugs trace a lot of their research back to the public sector and yet the prices of those drugs or vaccines don't reflect that so we really need to get our hands much dirtier than we have in the past in terms of what it means to create a mutualistic ecosystem right the the the skeptics of stakeholder capitalism argue that capitalists and capitalism by their nature are a really predator prey not symbiotic and and tell us about how would your your your book the moonshot guide to changing capitalism how how do you out how do we change that how do we make sure that it really is mutualistic as you say and not predator prey sure so what I do in the book is to sort of start with you know the moon landing when 50 years ago great ambitious you know bold inspirational mission to get to the moon and back again in one generation there was that great speech where Kennedy was like you know this is also going to be hugely expensive we might screw up along the way but it's worth it and so on you know what would it look like to bring that kind of ambition to the sustainable development goals to have real leadership but it's not about like a top down state driven system right it's about really setting the direction for change being really ambitious about it and then redesigning I come I always come back to this notion of design redesigning everything we have on the ground from procurement policy grants and loans and these are all interfaces of course with the private sector which receive procurement contracts grants and loans to really foster collaborations to work together towards solving the goals and what's interesting about the SDGs the sustainable development goals there's 17 of them they're really broad and inspirational their challenges which were negotiated they didn't come down just you know randomly they were negotiated globally but they're very broad so transforming them into moonshots so the clean oceans one saying 90% of the plastic out of the ocean no one country is going to do that alone and no actor state or private will do it alone it requires a new form of collaboration but the real tragedy and this is you know what I talk about in the book there's a whole chapter dedicated to this is we now no longer have the capacity and the dynamic capabilities that we need within governments because they bought into this notion that they're there just to fix market failures and I advocate for market co-creation co-shaping agenda which then would require both the private sector and the public sector to be investing within their own knowledge creating organizations as opposed to what we've seen definitely in the UK this immense outsourcing of the public brain to say consulting companies and one of the reasons the vaccine rollout is working quite well in the UK compared to the testing rollout which didn't work well is the vaccine rollout is actually happening through the public health system through GPs and you know that requires also strengthening that public health system whereas the testing occurred purely through an outsourcing mechanism which in and of itself is not a problem unless it's accompanied by what we've seen which is an underfunding of the brain itself if you want of government which absolutely requires when crises occur but also again in the everyday governing you know what it means to build back better. Thank you Angelique, Kijo I wanted to ask you to really jumping off what Mariana just said about take for example plastic out of the ocean it's going to no one country can do it you're a global citizen in all of your work an advocate great advocate for collaboration across borders one of the things that strikes me is how hard given how hard it is at the moment in particular to get collaboration within borders Prime Minister DeCruz spoke about that and we're all feeling it how do we find a path back to the kind of international collaboration that these challenges require? I think thank you for asking the question and I listen to everybody and it is really interesting what I'm hearing to talk about collaboration they have to be respect of one another and when we talk about global economy we're talking about stakeholder capitalism it doesn't shareholder capitalism doesn't work in Africa we don't have that in Africa my continent is never on the global agenda when it comes to capitalism when it comes to anything that only profit the western country and the rich countries and the leaders of Africa are shareholders of all those big companies we've been talking about they do not care about their own population to create job or to create anything of course to get the money they start learning from all this forum that we do to patch up the outside of their home to get money from the rich countries and nothing goes back to the people and if we're talking about stakeholder we need people in Africa to be educated to have jobs to participate in an economy how can we build an economy in 53 different countries that take into account the most vulnerable people the women they create more jobs than anyone but they don't have access to fines you have all those banks in Africa they only lend money to the middle the mid business the medium business size and the biggest one the one below that can get out of poverty they don't have access to money Mariana is talking about sustainable development goal but none of those 17 goals we can achieve if we don't tackle first poverty when people are hungry and there all the energy they in they out is to think about putting food on the table for their children nothing we're talking about here work and when I hear digital a solution that does not work too because digital is also discriminated the one that have the money to go to digital will go to digital the poorest that we have to to help they don't understand they can't do the business with cell phone I mean we have been helping Africa instead of empowering Africa's economy Africa is the richest continent on the planet yet the rich country have managed to take the resources out anytime this COVID pandemic gonna finish we're gonna end up with a lot of debts the rich country that are out making money to get the economy back up will be good but us we won't be good we'll fall back and back and what does it create to the rich countries immigration the oceans are more and more polluted we can't fight climate change without people being educated about what they have to do the whole global economy depends on the well-being of Africa if that continent don't shake we don't change the way we do business with African leaders not giving them pass for everything then when we invest we won't return when we give money to government we don't want return so we keep on feeding into the poverty the lack of education the lack I mean we kill the creativity of young Africans and we all see here with Goodwill talking about all the things you're hearing we work in Europe we work in America because you have a system in place but in Africa it won't work so we can't be talking about global economy without paying attention to what is going on in the on the continent of Africa Europe we never get away with the immigration that is coming to take what is taking away from them we can't fight immigration if we do not have the young African to find work in the country when you hear an immigrant say death is better than the poverty I'm living in how can we come to this form for people to be so desperate and while we sit and talk we talk number economy for me is always number I don't see people it does when we're talking about economy I don't see a face of a human being algorithm has become a weapon to create more poverty algorithm become the atomic bomb that is created by the new technology that is out there is not taking care of people we're talking about trust we're talking about fake news what is what is really feeding those people on internet the fact that they feel they feel disenfranchised they don't trust the system anymore they don't trust any government they don't trust anything because every time they try first the system in place that stopped them from trying so stakeholder capitalism are all I'm all for it but we have as Marianna said to go back to the nitty gritty at the bottom of it and build this our society strong enough to understand that this COVID is showing us that we are interconnected we are here we want to know that we leave one person behind we all gonna fail though all those dice all these puzzles that we are if we don't really tackle corruption institutional corruption in Africa that is really killing every day as we speak in people are dying from that corruption and we see you're talking about stakeholder capitalism that doesn't mean anything to us in Africa is something that disturbed me a lot so the price so the priorities are wrong in your in your completely completely wrong and and as I mean we're talking about stakeholder capitalism today with a particular focus on business but of course trillions of dollars and euros are are being as spent a stimulus to to pull countries out of this crisis and I'm reading into your perspective here that those plans are too inward looking that they're they're really focused on the US stimulus on the US and the EU stimulus on the EU and so on and leaving out we're not going to solve it unless we unless we extend that beyond borders is that that is that your that's exactly what I'm saying and we need to really strengthen the the banking system in Africa the financial system in Africa the the the thing that is really painful for me as I say is that we don't have any currency that can make it to the Wall Street our currency per the country where I come from my currency is index on the euro so how can you have any economy when you don't have your own money how can you have an economy when the rule of post colonialism is still imposed upon the countries I mean our leaders are facilitator for that there are the client of the rich country to continue taking the the resources out of Africa without creating anything in return for the for us to create our own economy I mean for people to be able to invest in African businesses the businesses that are there that are thriving in Africa are owned by the rich countries by France England America all those people that make do business in Africa that make money out of Africa are not the African business very few African businessmen are make money or a millionaire there are some of them but at the scope of Europe in America no the broad issue you raise is one Dan Shulman I'd love to talk to you about which is and Klaus and I spoke about a little bit at the beginning you you took a no layoff pledge when the pandemic hit we did we were able to as well at at time many many companies have have you know been a lot of success of wealth creation you know during this this period you've been able to increase wages and lower benefit costs for for your employees but what Angelica's getting at is is and I'd love to sense of is you know really I think in a way how much can this how much can stakeholder capitalism how much can business do given the depth of this a global crisis you know well thanks for first of all for having me Edward and it's really an honor to be with all of my fellow panelists and listen to all of their remarks I think that business has a very important role to play in this and I don't want to minimize that and I don't want to minimize the responsibility that CEOs and companies have to our broader communities I think everyone's brought this up but the pandemic really I think just brought into stark relief uh issues uh and trends that have been with us for quite some time they may just not have been as visible you've got several billion people throughout the world who live outside the financial system in the United States you have basically two-thirds of adults 185 million adults that struggle to make ends meet every single month um and if we think about kind of our politics our society the social unrest we've seen the political unrest we've seen that I mean that rings true to me like how can we expect somebody to embrace uh democracy when they don't think that the system is working for them when they think that others are doing well but they're not doing well and I think we as businesses do have an obligation to step up to work with the public sector to work within all the communities that we serve and I think we have different roles to play I think this idea that profit and purpose are at odds with each other inside business is ridiculous in fact I would argue that the two go hand in hand I mean where do the best employees want to work they want to work for companies that are making a difference in the world they want to work for companies that are taking care of them you mentioned that um you know we lowered health costs uh benefits raised wages well you know one of the things I found when we did a survey inside PayPal um and we're PayPal we pay at or above the market in every single country that we operate in but I found out that almost 50 percent of my employees were struggling to make ends meet at the end of the month in fact we created this metric we called it net disposable income it's how much money does somebody have after they've paid all of their taxes and essential living expenses what I found out for about half our company is that NDI was four percent and um to me that was just no wonder they were struggling and we worked with academics and we worked with the governments and we felt like the minimum NDI necessary for somebody to be able to save for somebody to be able to dream again about um you know having their kids have a better lives than they do is 20 percent and so we slashed health care benefits by 60 percent we raised salaries we gave everybody in the company equity and today we've taken that NDI from four percent to 16 percent and this year I hope we get to 20 percent I think those kinds of things we can do inside our company and I think every CEO has an obligation to first of all take care of your employees we can't depend on governments or shift that burden just to governments to go do that we can do that ourselves and then we need to step up and address issues in our society whether it be uh racial injustice social injustice you know we made a five hundred and thirty five million dollar commitment to reduce the racial wealth gap uh in the U.S. I think those are the kinds of things that we as leaders of industry need to do we don't stand in isolation we stand in solidarity with the communities that we have and hoping that helps us I have uh want to follow up on on a couple of key points you made but um I know Prime Minister DeCruis has to leave momentarily and I would love to um um pose to him and and in a sense to the two of you um you know what what's the where's the line um or how do you think about uh what government should be doing in the areas that Dan just described um uh government policy um regulation um versus a kind of loose partnership I mean again this also gets to what to the theme of Mariana's book you know what what where what is the role of government in what um in the aims that Dan just described um Prime Minister DeCruis maybe if I can echo one element that Dan mentioned is that you know if if you have corporates who have bad behavior towards their clients to our society as an employee you can be quite sure that if things go wrong they will also show bad behavior towards you and and that I think is is is more than ever a way that people look at it and a way that that people employees vote with their um with their uh with their feet so I I agree 100% with what Dan said and purpose and profit is not opposite if we talk about sustainability there is no activity that is sustainable if it is not profitable at one point and so profitability is not a bad thing quite the opposite but there are certain domains which obviously in in the way especially on the european side we look at it are are in a non-for-profit environment that is the case for healthcare and and it has proven that it is a successful uh formula but in the challenges that we see now we can achieve incredible things if everyone brings their best at the table see what we have done in in in vaccines I mean if if the public sector brings to the table what they're best in being uh funding uh early stage research and so on providing stability of financing and if the private sector brings what they're best at at the table that is being innovative speed um bringing things to market see what we can do we've developed vaccines in less than a year's time but in general it would take eight years and for me that's that really is the lesson instead of pointing fingers at each other let's see what we are best at and if everyone brings at the table what they're best at I mean what we have we've proven over the last months what humanity is capable of I think it's mind-boggling and we should continue doing it and have that mindset instead of being pointing at each other let's let's see what you're best at and bring that at the table if we do that incredible can I just add a a framing issue on what was just mentioned is that okay Edward I don't know if we're allowed to bump in here so in terms of this issue that Dan was raising because I completely agree with him I just want to give it a bit of a different twist of course it's possible to make profits without purpose what we want to do is bring profits and purpose together but take any sector if you take retail you know Costco and Walmart you know we're making more or less the same profit margin one through kind of you know innovation one basically through exploiting the labor force this is to be honest to respect Walmart it was before they actually started to change in that situation what you then need for government to do is to say we're not here to level the playing field this like word that or sentence that basically just means almost status quo you need to tilt the playing field towards making it more profitable for those companies that are able to achieve a certain type of profit margin through innovation through investment in the workforce and so on instead of exploiting them but that does mean really again getting your hands dirty with you know tax you know whether it's capital gains tax to foster long-termism and not short-termism or with companies of this sort to make sure they really are treating their workforce well in order to get a public loan and so on but this notion about leveling the playing field I think that's one of the things we should get out and bring in the notion of tilting not meaning choosing one company one sector but getting a system that really rewards the kind of companies that we're talking about is being more purposeful so you're talking about government policy at some level and the framing of it there's a framing of it blouse if I could ask you to chime in and I know you and dan have worked on this together mariana frames it around government policy what about internally within the corporation you briefly mentioned this at the beginning the metrics where do you see the place of metrics measuring commitment to stakeholders within corporations public disclosure around those metrics now first first I want to express my my appreciation for dan you are really a role model for stakeholder capitalism but let me come back to something which is fundamental I think we have two different levels here we have what has to happen inside a society where also government plays a key role in terms of taxes avoidance of taxation and so on and then we have in specific insights of society we have the role of the enterprise and let's not forget the enterprise the corporation is the world's creator and many of the issues which were mentioned like poverty and so on can be solved if we have enough at fair wealth creation it's companies with which drive innovation it's companies who in a competitive way drives a forced industrial revolution drive social benefits and so on now the problem which we have is when we talk about capital we think of financial capital but actually what you need for wealth creation is not just financial capital it's human capital it's social capital it's natural capital so we need to to embrace a much larger definition of capital and all those capitals create in a shared way wealth and indirectly or directly for country prosperity so we we coming back to to the essence of your question we still measure only how a company uses the financial capital whether it's really efficient in terms of allocation of financial capital but we should measure also how a company in which way a company uses natural capital people planet in a most responsible way so that's the essence of stakeholder capitalism and here of course the metrics are important because otherwise we stay with I mean every company has now a purpose that we have to measure how the company moves really forward in fulfilling this border purpose going beyond just serving shareholders and and how do you you take that that purpose those metrics those commitments far enough to you know back to the concerns Angelique was raising particularly in Africa but in you know many places around the world where you know the amazing things that Dan is doing at PayPal and many other you know companies that have joined in this movement are doing but they're so far to go how does that reset how does the reset that's supported by stakeholder capitalism get to the poorest of the of the poor no give me I give you just an example related to what Angelique said corruption if you are really forced in your reporting to indicate every dollar you paid to for non directly let's say corporate related issues and you have afterwards on a government levels and necessary penalty system and let's say you you really hold companies accountable if they deviate from good behavior I mean it's a dream but we can make this dream and companies like Dan provides a good example we can go into this direction of making stakeholder capitalism the core of our economic system a moonshot as I think Mariana would would put I don't think we can have stakeholder capitalism if we continue Klaus to say that wealth creation is just in business I think the whole point of stakeholder capitalism is to actually admit that wealth is collectively created you know everything that makes our iphone smart and not stupid happened not just through government you know taxation in the background it was actually government investment in the internet gps touchscreen series and then you know privates the private sector did magnificent things with them but we have to stop talking about wealth creation is just business sorry Mariana if you take stakeholders governments is an important crucial stakeholder in this context but not just for taxation sorry that was my point it's also investment what I agree with you it shared wealth creation so it's a benefit should also be shared yes but we cannot share the benefits properly if we don't also admit that we created it created it collectively and I think the really cutting edge discussions globally are where this distinction between wealth creation and wealth distribution that dichotomy is no longer there and we think about the direction of government investment and how it collaborates with business in new ways in the ways that Antoudique was talking about so in non-corrupt ways and ways that are catalytic to really inspire bottom-up innovation that that's truly how we talk about wealth creation itself when government hold the wealth of the country and it doesn't distribute the world wealth that's it there's nothing you can do because if you the leader of a country is the one that own the main resources and that is profiting from it with his family how are you gonna you can't I mean it's it's just I wish we have a solution class I just wish we have a solution that will work on African continent because the youth today in Africa they are so entrepreneur they have so many ideas no money to develop they I mean it's crazy every time I go there my head is a bubble they bubble with ideas and they have all those beautiful ideas that for example then can finance and create more wealth and more job but they can't they don't have access to the money and if they have that and they have it so if the company that start working then the government gonna come and say you can't do this and they take away how do you protect young entrepreneur a new entrepreneur in Africa to do business to create job to create wealth without the government being on the back through tax or stealing their company away from them that's the problem and what I'm saying I see it I heard about it it's not like I'm just making it up it's the reality of the 2021 till today so the COVID-19 is just hammering the young kids that have project and on the right to go to get off and their stock because they can't reach out to to finance in Europe or anywhere else and it is I want this stakeholder business capitalism to work I want it to work because the people in Africa are the one that are creating the wealth that is being hijacked by the leader of their countries Dan I I mean I asked this of a prime minister to crew and really and we've all been talking about it throughout where do you see this this line if that's the right word between government the role of government as a stakeholder and the corporation well I there has to be a partnership between government between the private sector between academia non-profits we all need to work together I don't think any of us can advocate responsibility you know one of the things that I think and I believe in at least is that you can be overwhelmed by the extent of the problems that exist in our world you know we're facing as I think you mentioned or somebody did multiple problems at one time that have all been magnified by the pandemic but I believe that leadership matters I believe that each and every one of us can make even if it's a small difference we can make a difference like I know that I can make a difference with the resources that PayPal has and there are places that I am doing my best to go and do that I think we can encourage government we can encourage by investing in NGOs by working with academia hand in hand to come up with solutions that we wouldn't come up with individually I think you know the collective power of that whole can be very very powerful it is not easy to go do and sometimes you just need to say look I'm going to go do this inside my company I am going to you know give loans as Angelique was saying to small businesses that otherwise wouldn't get them and there is discrimination in the way that loans are put out and this is one of the reasons why you know we dedicated money to just give grants to black-owned businesses here in the U.S. that were hit particularly hard by covid 41 percent double the number of non-black businesses owned businesses went out of business during the pandemic and so helping them to get loans helping them to survive through this pandemic we felt was essential to have a country that comes out of this that can at least start to come together and prosper and I I think this idea of stakeholder capitalism is so important because look anyone can maximize profits next quarter that's not the that's not a harder thing to go do it's really if you want to move from being a good company to a great company if you want to build a long enduring company that can make a difference this is about building for the long term I mean I think if we if we have a purpose if we inspire employees to do the right thing we treat them well we treat our customers and regulars with respect as people were saying then over the long run we do maximize profit we do maximize returns for shareholders but we can't just think about one constituent versus others we work in a complicated world and we need to have we need to have solutions that are multivariate in response I want to ask Dan said something that really is true we need all the all the pieces to work together because there's no way it's gonna work without it because you can't wash your left hand without your right hand and everything in our world is like that and what I'm doing as you said each one of us we can we can do something I started an organization where I give seed funding to adolescent girls and young women in my country I started three years ago last time I was there it was late 2019 and the result of it is just mind blowing even myself could not believe how fast those younger young those adolescent and young women gonna transform their family their community the COVID-19 hit their villages those young women from the get go they say we're gonna produce soap liquid and solid soap and my question was why are you doing such a small business and they said to me we buy the soap far away when we come back that soap we have to divide the use of the soap in three washing the dishes washing the clothes or washing ourselves our self-confidence start from our own hygiene so we need people to have access to soap COVID-19 arrived there were the first one to provide the soap the water fountain going to the radio and telling people in their different languages how to prevent COVID-19 to come to their village just a little seed I mean I mean beginning seeds goes a long way that's why I'm that's what I know this stakeholder capitalism can work because if you give to people the ability to work to create something for themselves to dream the kids do better the family do better the whole society and the world get better and we live in the world at peace and not in the world in pieces inspiration to all of us and a lot of work to do I'd love to let that class have the final the final word and and just your thoughts on you know great discussion today thank you all for being part of it class does this leave you where are you on the you announced a great reset there was skepticism there was skepticism there was optimism skepticism a new word where are you where are you on the are you if we if we get this group together in two years how much progress have we made if I look back the last 50 years since I created the world economic form humankind has made such a progress and it's a little things and if everybody gives more sun takes in I think son we as a humankind will fulfill our obligations which we have towards the next generation so I I have seen despite all the question marks we raised I have seen many positive signals the last let's say statement of kid you I think we stakeholder capitalist gives us direction now we have to walk fast to implement it thank you thank you and thank all of you thank you hope to see you in person soon