 Good morning or good afternoon or good morning. Good morning still Welcome to New America. I'm Peter Bergen. I run the international security program Here and we're really delighted to be the place where Mohammed Fraser Raheem the co-author of the new report by Quilliam Transforming the hate that hate produced is going to present some of the key findings from his from his new report Dr. Fraser Raheem used to work for the Department of Homeland Security The director of national intelligence the National Counterterrorism Center, so he's had a long career in government He earned his PhD last year from Howard and then commenting after Dr. Fraser Raheem is Yahya Fanouzi who's at the foundation for the defense of democracies He also had a distinguished career in government working as both an economic and counterterrorism analyst for the Central Intelligence Agency So I'm going to hand it over to Dr. Fraser Raheem and he'll basically set the table for our discussion. Thank you Great. Good morning. I hope everyone's doing well. I'm going to try to I think we have some PowerPoints. So we're going to try to use and put up if not, we'll have a backup plan for that as well But I want to thank first and foremost Peter Along with the new America Foundation including David Sturman who were graciously Allowed us to be able to come here to engage on what I think is an important topic This topic in particular is dealing with the experience of African-American Muslims And the report in particular I should start off with my organization I work with now, Quilliam, is the oldest and first kind of extremist organization in the world working and compose a former extremist themselves and The work that I currently do I let head our efforts in all of North America Engaging in our Africa portfolio too as well But I think this opportunity that we have today is engaging on a critical issue Dealing with the oldest Muslim community in the United States And so as a student I study throughout West Africa and Senegal, Mali, Guinea, Sierra Leone, and the Gambia I studied in traditional Islamic centers of learning in the Middle East as well and One of the most important things that came up when I was there was to eat Khushadi Egyptian food or food But one is I bring this up this is very local to the Being in the Middle East in Egypt, etc But we say that if you have not had a beam pie in the United States of America You haven't experienced Islam in the United States and I think that that framing is important because African-American Muslims the descendants of enslaved Africans have been in the United States of America since its inception And so this report builds off of the great contribution of the work of enslaved Africans leaving West Africa coming to the United States by force and with them These individuals brought with them a nonviolent spiritual form of Islam That has been in the United States since its inception some scholars say roughly between 50 to 30 to 30 percent of the enslaved Africans came from Muslim lands like in Senegal and Mali Jair in Nigeria, which is very important to highlight to understand the context And so as a child growing up in Charleston, South Carolina, I Was the beneficiary of a Gala Gechi tradition, which is very much the experience of enslaved Africans of still preserving culture in the low country of South Carolina and Georgia as well as studying and memorizing the Quran as a young boy in Charleston That experience and that journey is important in light of the contemporary narrative of Islam being something different and foreign Away from the American experience, I think that was at the the funeral last year of Muhammad Ali the Dr. Sherman Jackson He said very eloquently that With the death of Muhammad Ali that in his death There should be no question of the compatibility between Islam and Being American being Muslim and American What Ali did and many others was basically make it very visible For the American experience to see that there is Muslim presence Muslim influence. And so Muhammad Ali Karim Abdul-Jabbar Dave Chappelle Mark Rock Akiyo, these are just well-known individuals that within African-American Communities, they are happened to be Muslim that are new are used to multiple faith traditions Within Muslim within families of African-American experience even in the relation of pop music and hip-hop You see the influence of African-American Muslim identity as well So I framed that just to give you a context to understand that American Muslims themselves and particularly African-American Muslims have been engaging in a conversation of being both American and Muslim from the very beginning and this journey From that period onwards and so There's sent essentially was this gap before I get into the report. It's important to kind of frame the conversation Dr. Suleiman Yang Professor emeritus at Howard University essentially calls it a 60-year gap between African-Islam and African-American Islam the traditions the cultures what you're used to many people that Islamic identity of practice falling of the various schools of Islamic thought whether they're in the Arabian Peninsula or in West Africa and with the journey coming into America we have a very new identity emerging with the rise of proto Islamic movements if you will elements of Islamic identity that incorporated the nation of Islam That incorporated the influence of the Ahmadiyya movement to as well It's important to to recognize that when the development of Islam in America was certainly very much the result of Ahmadiyya Missionaries in the United States without Mufti Muhammad Sadiq in the turn of the century in the 1900s He was very instrumental in the establishment of Islamic identity in the United States and I say that in light of Certainly that the blasphemy laws and issues in Pakistan largely But this is a very interesting to show you this mailu this fusion this this melting pot of Islam Coming into the American experience and so African-American Muslims Journey into the air to this experience have engaged in this sense of resistance Looking for spirituality Looking for purpose and in that journey we saw the development of the nation of Islam now to make a very sort of complex story Very short to as well to simplify it in 1975 the late Imam working Muhammad led the largest mass conversion of American Muslims to Sunni Islam So many individuals are very familiar with the nation of Islam for its rhetoric in black nationalism It's rhetoric of divisiveness and segregation as a result of the experience of Jim Crow laws the rich the the result of the American encounter with race relations W.D. Muhammad was the son of Elijah Muhammad who essentially instituted radical reforms to reject his father's teachings and Usher in a community that has currently Over 300 mosques throughout the United States and the Caribbean that also has the oldest Islamic Institution in the United States as well and is a model that has judges lawyers former counterterrorism analysts Intelligence officers individuals who are diplomats individuals who are businessmen who have been in to and Congressmen's in the United States as well particularly Congressman Andre Carson to as well to demonstrate this specific plan by the late Imam working Muhammad to create an inclusive Pluralistic Islam that in that says that you can be both American and Muslim so his reform methods one an ideological rehabilitate or ideological reform one rejecting the teachings of his father and Rejecting it in a way where he was also offering an alternative to self-empowerment Creating this sense of worth and meaning for many African Americans who were affected by Feeling a sense of victimhood and dehumanization and in light of the racial disparity operating in the United States as well three a Healthy sense of patriotism in citizenship. There's an Arabic phrase that says Hey, but what's any man that the love of country is part of faith very well known for the Islamic tradition and taught by Muhammad the prophet the late Imam working Muhammad Encouraged a sense of patriotism in citizenship in and as a result This is why we have the first American judges Coming from this community the first American congressman's coming from this community the first American elected officials coming from this community So this formula one in which individuals could easily Stay in a sense of frustration and anger Wanting to carry out actions against the state that we see as part of grievances individuals used through the larger Muslim world in the broader Islamic world Imam working Muhammad was able to institute mechanisms in framing to say yes You can have legitimate grievances channel it through the the Constitutional efforts of the United States and do it in a productive meaning way You can be vocal about it But also recognize that you are part of this society that there is no other place that you're gonna go back home to that in fact as an Americans as in fact as Muslims you owe a responsibility to do something as well you can be critically You can be critical of issues and policies, but recognize that where you are in the society where you are in this In this United States of America is part of where you are and where you should be going for the future as well And and and just those just examples right there are just some of the mechanisms in framing of what? WD Muhammad was able to institute as well I'll close out with this and we'll have a much more time for Q&A is that I think that the Formula of particularly what working Muhammad and what he offered in the report and it's now readily available is one in which other Western and larger Muslim communities throughout the United States can Throughout the world they can borrow from of how can diaspora communities address issues of critical Complaints the African-american community regardless of being Muslim or not has been very much one that has dealt with issues of police brutality the community has dealt with the issue of what they've seen as Surveillance and so what what the experience of this community has said is that listen the the government state security services Will have to do their job entrapment is a tool that law enforcement will use Absolutely, it's part of that apparatus as part of that engagement What needs to take place also is that that? Also engaging critically in a manner where you can have a dialogue of Pushing back on a policy level, but also recognizing that this is also part of what law enforcement Intelligence service state security services are going to be engaged in anyway So constructive dialogue and looking for solutions as well I'll stop there because I think there's much more that will will potentially cover as well And particularly some of the recommendations that we offer as well. Thank you Good morning everyone I'm just going to follow up with Mohammed sort of riff off of what he's done And just say a few words before we get into the Q&A To do to do two things one to give some context historical context To this movement to this community and then say a little bit It gives some personal insights and maybe contextualizing my personal Experience will help us get into the discussion so number one The first I think is important to to provide to have this historical context in terms of how Islam has spread Throughout history You've always had throughout Islamic history new Muslim communities springing up right throughout Asia throughout Africa Where often you had small communities who maybe were not really connected to the Islamic tradition in much depth. There were a lot of syncretic Practices you had often these were illiterate communities and Then Islam would grow later and get deeper later But that engagement with what we would think of like the true Islamic sources The Sunnah of the Prophet the example of the Prophet it usually happens with some connection to the Ulema with some connection to the sort of Established religious authority that that's how Islam really spread how you got new new small communities become Established in their Islamic or Quranic identity. That's usually how it happened the Ulema were were key This was the process of Islam spreading this always happened, but there was a difference in 1975 which is what Muhammad refers to in 1975 something happened, which had never happened in the history I would say I'm not a historian, but my wife is a historian And I've learned a lot from her What happened in 1975 was for the first time you had a large collective body of new Muslims start to engage the Islamic text and Develop an authentic Islamic identity Without the prodding of or the influence of the established Ulema That had never happened before So the mid 70s in the midst of the Cold War On the cusp of globalization a changing world advances in communication It's very sort of unique in the middle of the the world's most powerful country, right? the United States Was birth a very unique Islamic identity and it's interesting that this happened in the context of the African-American community Now why might this have happened? I mean My my thought is that if you think about the African-American community in our history The African-American community is as you referred to dr. Sue Mon Yang saying that there was this gap As you know the African-American identity is one that has been cut off right cut off from history Even though there were traditions and there's a historical connection, but even to say African-American Which specific country are you talking about right? It's very rare only in some situations make can you trace it? So you had this new identity of a new really a new people and It makes sense if you think about it that for Islam to grow within this community You're gonna have something very unique and so for the first time you had this again this community where Islam was even in the face of sort of racial oppression and and this the legacy of Racial oppression and and these things You had Islam growing you had people taking on this identity But they did it in a way and this is due to Imam Muhammad sort of example and how he sort of helped this community grow Where the Islamic identity was you being comfortable in your own skin? And I would pause it before we step into the discussion that This community's Example may be the sort of the reform movement that people especially in the post 911 period people are always sort of Asking about and talking about as if it doesn't it never exists, but it actually has been here Just in the New York Times a couple of days ago It was Mustafa I coal I think had a piece about authoritarianism in the Muslim world and how this is driving people to leave You know this authoritarianism and bigotry and narrow-minded mindedness drives people away from Islam Talk about Saudi Arabia what MBS is is doing these talks of reform and a more enlightened Islam This is something everyone is talking about but these a lot of these voices are coming out of the quote-unquote Muslim world experience it's interesting to note that This real Islamic reform which happened cut off independent from the Ulema with with with this African-American Muslim community Has been operating Developing an Islamic in that was was comfortable And has been overlooked and it probably was overlooked because the Islamic reform That people are looking for or the body that people think this should show up in didn't look like what they thought it would look like It didn't look like someone who's trained in al-Azhar who of who who is trained in al-Azhar and trained in the West and went to Oxford and Can now bridge the Islamic experience and the Western experience. It's not what it looks like Doesn't mean that the community was not engaging al-Azhar and that he met Muhammad wasn't engaging scholars Right we weren't cut off in that sense But the direction happened in a very independent way independent thinking about Islam and independent thinking about how you approach the Quran How you approach the Prophet's example that happened when the Muslim is the most of the Muslim world was not even thinking about that because they were too Connected too attached to their tradition which we can still respect we can still respect that history But it was the breaking off of the African-American identity that allowed a different American Islam and so I will end by saying so what does this mean for us? This means something to me personally Muhammad Muhammad You know I think we've got a great example here a great model here because Muhammad you were born and raised You know what you third fourth generation Muslim? In South Carolina, I was raised in the West Coast my mother is from is African-American born in New York And my father is from West Africa, and I was not raised Muslim. I converted to Islam in college and I came out of an experience where I sort of came to Islam as a young adult And it was really seen in man Muhammad's community that really merged and made my my identity as a Muslim American harmonious And so I guess hopefully we'll talk a little bit more about that but those are those are my words and my experience Well, thank you both very very super interesting Opening comments one factual question a third of Muslims in the United States or African-American is that correct? Is that well understood do you think I think I should I should start off to say that Imam Talib Sharif the resident Imam of Mashin Muhammad the nation's mosque the oldest mosque built by indigenous Muslims in the United States in Washington His sister passed away so he couldn't be here the The statistics are changing 2011 the Pew data poll 2015 It showed that African-American Muslims were roughly around 33% South Asian Muslims were roughly about 28% Arab Muslims are rough are obviously continue to be less than that those numbers as well I think quite frankly now in African-Americans the numbers are probably Maybe a little less in light of probably immigration issues or immigration of Individuals coming from different countries and so it may be a little less than that but it's it's right around that I mean am I right in thinking that when Americans think of Muslims they think of Arab-Americans or South Asian-American they tend to think of that is that correct absolutely? I mean listen, I think that there is a slow if we had to be honest There's a slower ratio of African-American Islam And if you look at the pundits on TV the commentary that's on television Despite our background having served our country Written co-wrote hundreds of presidential daily briefs and strategic assessments We were actually mistaken as each other Several times we were at government But but this but this happened But no, I think that you know, I think that our the conversation has shifted in light of Perhaps this idea of American Muslim exceptionalism which I pushed back off I think that you know roughly 40 percent 45 percent according to 2015 2011 data pool Shows that 45 percent of American Muslims are at or below the poverty line So it challenges this this notion that all Americans are wealthy. Yes many are well-to-do very successful I'm on the board of the America's Islamic Heritage Museum That's right here in Washington DC in Southeast in Anacostia that documents the history of The entire Muslim experience But is that voice heard is that is that narrative being shown as it seemed? Not as much as it should be You know you said Mohammed so I'm very interesting which is this idea that you could be Nationalistic and still be Muslim because obviously some of bin Laden would very much differ and I want you to unpack this a little bit because Bin Laden would often talk about the nation, but he didn't mean You know Saudi Arabia or he talks he means the entire Uma the entire Community of believers which he presents himself as sort of defending But so what how you know how would Osama bin Laden react to some of the things you've just said and these ideas was interesting, you know Osama bin Laden and Taliban we haven't now enough to classified information and also open source available information now They were targeting seeking to target African-American Muslims looking to use and incite on racial grievances going back when Then senator Barack Obama was going to What was seeking to become the president? They were using the house Negro field Negro concept So very keenly aware of the the racial dynamics To reach new recruits because they made the assumption that they were certainly African-American Muslims in the United States that some who potentially spoke Arabic There's some Taliban documents that are out there too as well I think Osama bin Laden himself and you know, particularly when you're talking about the umma It's a very different narrative than how I've engaged it Which is all of humanity is the umma as well that the that the umma is also a very local Dynamic as well. And so for the community as a whole, I think particularly this particularly one is it certainly been very much Has pushed back against that narrative that this isn't what we would accept at all But I think that that argument with the bin Laden Zohari With with now with the rise of Hamza bin Laden too as well. They are framing This idea of of the Muslim polity in some way having been unified There's an interesting new book that's out called the idea of the Muslim world and this idea of Muslims being unified collectively Thinks from the days of the Abbasid period the Umayyad period from the Islamic learning institutions in West Africa So there's been this There's been There has never been sort of this idea of a of the perfect Islamic state It has always been this sense of influx of experimentation when the jizya tax when the money was flowing in a sense of openness intolerance was was certainly there you can Look at a number of Islamic polities that have been As examples, but when taxes were restricted You see a much more conservatism. That's not to say conservatism equates with extremism But conservatism can be one out of many other sort of dynamics or or triggers For individuals interest down the extremist pathway. I don't know you've been on appeal to African-American Maybe I think it was a man al-Zawari who used of this Was specifically I mean that fell on deaf ears, right? I mean if I turns out the African-American Muslim community was not I mean there was almost no takers, right? I mean if you look at the cases I mean African-Americans don't really there are Carlos Bledsoe. I guess in yeah in Arkansas was one of them but I mean he's It wasn't it wasn't a very fertile field that turned out the report itself I mean we get into this and we go to the examples Carlos Bledsoe is being an example Malik Jones who's just in Baltimore tell tell people who Carlos Bledsoe is called Carlos Bledsoe was an African-American convert who traveled to Yemen former military and He also then he carried out an attack down in Alabama Which he now is incarcerated with in his family his father and his sister now have an organization Because they weren't aware of the signs. They weren't aware down in Tennessee They weren't aware that he had that this pathway of Conversion was going to lead them down this journey Loan it's very interesting because Memphis, Tennessee has one of the oldest Muslim communities that has particularly the Community of Eman Muhammad that if he had just drove a little bit further He would have been exposed to a formula and an antidote that would have helped him see a broader holistic understanding And so him Carlos Bledsoe Malik Jones who's in Baltimore, Maryland is another example You know the African-Americans who have gone down the path of sort of jihadist recruitment haven't come from this community There's not a single individual in this report. We highlight that That has been exposed that has carried out any actions From al-Qaeda from ISIS to al-Shabaab to Boko Haram at all as a date Yeah, you mentioned something very interesting, which is about this question of interpretation and I mean I kind of mispronounced where but I think the concept is it's jihad Which is basically the idea that you can interpret the Quran and of course for fundamentalists for Wahhab You know, that's the sort of you know, which is their prerogative to say, you know You can't you know the gates of interpretation of clothes But and I thought it was very interesting use because of after 9-11 There was a lot of discussion about potential reformation in Islam But I mean that was by people who didn't really know much about Islamic history because there've been lots of mini-reformations along the way right and people so But I was unaware that in 19 what anything you just said about this attempt So was it controversial in the Islamic world that the Americans were sort of doing this without Al-Azhar University and other sort of Arab Yeah, I mean so obviously I didn't live live through it directly because I was born at that time I was born in 1975 So I didn't see it But I think you had you had a very quiet sort of movement You know what so when Muhammad when Imam Muhammad sort of took the reins of the nation of Islam and did everything that Muhammad mentioned You did have an outreach to the Muslim Muslim world You did have I think one of the original names of the community was the world of World community of al-Islam in the West right so the idea was that we're not just a small sort of sectarian group We are Muslims. We are the you know traditional Muslims We're following Muhammad and we're we have the same brotherhood and sisterhood with all Muslims around the world So it was this idea of universality, but it wasn't one of of direction And I think from from what I've seen what I've read and heard from folks who were there who were around at that time Other scholars appreciated Imam Muhammad Other folks acknowledged that he was sort of the the person in America who sort of had leadership No one else and I think who in 1980 was a key Muslim American leader that had a large following Can we name anyone no right? Well, it was it was a Imam Muhammad that was doing this So I think there was respect, but he was very independent So I think what did happen in 80s and 90s Here in America in particular a lot of people saw even though he sort of naturally had this leadership in this community was growing People would say that he wasn't authentic. They would say that well, you know, okay now we're here We you know, my family came from wherever Pakistan or Egypt and now we're we're here in America And we can provide the guidance of Islam and I think we've sort of been caught up in that which is That's where we are. I think that's what we've dealt with you. You mentioned Muhammad bin Salman who courses the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia He's here in the United States right now on a two-week trip. He met with President Trump last Tuesday on Tuesday What do you I mean? He's said some very interesting things. I mean, I think he told the Washington Post that you know, they kind of the the road that Saudi Arabia has been going down since 1979 as a result of the Iranian Revolution and they're kind of counted to that basically Wasn't you know, it's kind of a cool the sack and there was a lot of problems there So and you know, he's letting the women are going to drive in June. He's extraordinarily. He's letting Very unusual for the Gulf if you're a divorced mother, you can now get have custody of your kids without going to court So so he's making real changes, of course He's also locking people up and you know doing some other things that so if you're you're both intelligence analysts We work in the US government if you were talking to You know one of your you know the president or You know one of your the directors of the CIA or DHS and you were sort of advising Them or trying to analyze What would you be saying about this right now? I mean, is this a big deal or is this kind of window dressing or what I think what's Happening is is probably inevitable. I think everything that you've mentioned is is good And and important and we've seen pockets of it and I think this is it's inevitable It had to happen. I think it's good that it's happening. Is it window dressing? I would say what it is is it's going to be easier said than done, right? One person sort of dictating to a whole country There are a lot of there's a lot of institutional inertia that that that he's going to have to fight against and others Who are doing the same things so that has to be taken into consideration the one thing that I would add is For these efforts to be Successful I would recommend that those who are doing them consult those who have been successful in Providing this sort of enlightened Islam Islam in the modern environment. That's what I think I'd like to see I'd like to see I'm not trying to ask for you know for an invitation But I you would think but you would think that if folks are sort of saying these This is how Islam should be and they should look at where Islam has been like that in the West Again, not to be Western centric and say that us as Muslims are going to save the rest of the Muslim world But just sort of I think practically I think we've got it We've got a lot to show that the rest of the quote-unquote Muslim world can learn from Arab spring in the Gulf I mean in the sense of this without all the trappings of what it looked like and Starting to New York Center. I think that you know MBS is trying to institute a slow Engagement in light of two stakeholders that are in Saudi Arabia you have the religious clerical establishment and you also have the the royal family and those two engagements require surgical sophistication in a way where you are making everyone happy And so doing that requires slow Reforms that for us may be a bit slow But it may be timely and may be for the long haul the best decision at this particular moment Leading Saudi cleric and old friend of bin Laden's so who's he's now rejected But I mean he I mean if you're not going along for the ride. He's putting you in jail So so this is the this is the task one is you know The joke or the conversation always comes up is oh, you know, let's work up and prop moderate leaders Let's work with soupy voices Yeah, those are individuals who already drunk the Kool-Aid the real engagement are those who are You know Salafi who are are on the border who? Make us bit uncomfortable to work with in some way some shape or fashion engaging them in a constructive way or some Requires a real Purposeful tactful strategy and that engagement, but I'm of the I'm of the opinion that engaging those types Some who are nonviolent and some who are part of the engagement that we need particularly in the Gulf and for the broader Islamic world Because I think you all are hitting on it I think we also have to remember that you know changing culture Changing society isn't something that can happen in a policy directive And so we have to and I think maybe the experience that we've been through sort of shows that that it really is an organic process Right, so we I think we have to be comfortable with the idea that even if a leader or policymaker sets out these guidelines The path to freedom to enlightenment to whatever we want to call it reform revivalism It's not going to follow by scripts So we need to you know, we need to be aware that maybe you know some some actors who were who were doing Asking for reform. Yeah, they may not be perfect. I'm not endorsing what I'm endorsing them I'm just saying this is an organic process an organic process Yeah, one thing that's very different like if we had this conversation a few years after 9 11 I mean, I'll kind of framed everything through the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, right? I'm constantly talked about it if you look at what's happening now with jihadism. It's all about anti Shia, it's sectarian and and and you know, you had Mohammed bin Salman going on 60 minutes from comparing Come any to Hitler and and implying that he might start a nuclear weapons program. So, you know that Speaking again is sort of, you know wearing your analysts hat. I mean, what what does this all look like going down the road? I mean are these sectarian tensions going to Sort of continue being an issue. Are they gonna amplify get worse and what does it mean for the Middle East? What does it mean for Islam writ large if there is this kind of growing sectarianism? I mean the wild card factor too as well It's now, you know, you have a growing rise of atheism and Middle-East as well. So, you know, individuals are leaving and sort of that rise of Of a movement if you will quietly that's being take place that many people It's very problematic, even if So, no, I think you know the rise of this is the age-old issue between sort of Sunni Shia tension. It's still an issue It's still a problematic one. I added the Ahmadiyya one earlier to as well It's not even mentioned that and that dynamic. So, yeah, I think that these issues continue to become one All throughout the world, I think there's proxy elements that certainly will manifest itself Whether it's in Southeast Asia Africa to as well. We forget about that. There's a Nigeria particularly you have the rise of anti-shia views particularly with Shixxzaki Oh, there's a larger number of Shias in Nigeria all throughout West Africa Lebanese influence has been there and including Scholarships that have gone to Qom and studying Isfahan to as well So that that competition that's been taking place and isn't just in the Middle East It's in West it's in East Africa and looking for new new areas to get influence to get Yeah When when I am you know bringing it to the personal so I converted 1997 And I often think about you know when I converted to Islam. I didn't convert to Sunni ism You know, I didn't convert to Shia ism I was it probably became later. It was probably a year later before I understood the actual distinction Right because I was you know really into the text and not into the politics so So it's interesting because even though I mean I think the African-American Muslim community That we're talking about came to Islam where yeah for sure. Had we could say you know We were brought to Sunni Islam by default But I think it's real important to note that it wasn't a really sectarian view It was yeah Maybe a lot of the sources are gonna be from Sunni scholars and they weren't using Shia scholars But the identity was was really not so much attached to that And so maybe in in the the broader the things that we were seeing now Maybe there's benefit in this identity being created which was not so or has not been so sectarian Yes, maybe Sunni by default, but that's not the that's not the way I really contextualize it that it was a Sunni reform It was really a a push to this idea of Islam consult the texts, you know be connected to the broader Tradition but not so Closed in to a sectarian identity and that's probably maybe Saudi needs that Down a sectarian path by its nature or not So I think what I mean again from a personal standpoint I I think about in the 90s coming to Islam before the internet right the internet wasn't a huge thing and If I'm going into different mosques like I would there was so much Salafist, you know, Wahhabi literature I it's I think most converts at that time if you're gonna be sort of engaging Islam for the first time going to different mosques Like the people were talking about the carl's blood so's you probably would be inundated with with Wahhabi literature Coming from Saudi funded right from Saudi all throughout the right the 80s in the 90s and that's what we were we were dealing with Interesting if you look at this the popular culture go to Philadelphia the notion of now Salafi You can be a Salafi, but not Muslim And if you go to if you go to Philadelphia now just an example and everyone has a The Salafi identity of a long beard is I mean this is what's very much a fad going back 10 years ago Five years ago, and it's probably still the place now that beard is comes from the influence of Salafi thought in America in Philadelphia East, Orange, New Jersey It are just two locations that now it's just part of popular culture in urban societies people having a big beard that comes from the influence of From a very Salafi Framing of the world that has nothing to do that in the contemporary context It's hard to distinguish it being one and the same, but you can see that That that influence but no absolutely I think that throughout the u.s. The Salafi sort of educational textbooks or I should say, excuse me Well, how do you certainly textbooks have been part and parcel of many months? I think things are shifting You're part of an organization called Quilliam. Yeah, what is Quilliam named after and what is the purpose of the organization? So Abdullah Quilliam was first convert to Islam in the UK and Quilliam we were in the United Kingdom in 1800s and The Quilliam as an organization now I run our offices in North America and we work on counter extremism composed of and comprised of former extremists themselves Who had gone down the pathway of his but there would go on the pathway of al-Qaeda as well We have a new report coming out next month of an individual who was one of the what individual of the early days Actually one of the youngest cases of an individual who has been a member of al-Qaeda And we'll be announcing him and doing some efforts to head to as well in the United States So we've been engaging on this issue and I've seen this from you know The government side having written on it brief senior level policymakers engaged with our former counterparts worked on it sort of in the academic sense to as well and then on the outside as well working on Ideological rehabilitation point-to-point with individuals and so you know, this is not easy work This is very much the policy level work that we do we put out policy analysis like what you're seeing today We deal with the media, but we also roll up our sleeves and real Issues of how do you deal with preventing individuals going down that pathway and this experience is unique? I think particularly the African-American one as well is that you know, we've been dealing with gang prevention We've been dealing with drug addiction Our families are the highs and the lows of individuals who are very wealthy and successful To individuals who are in public housing facilities and we've dealt with the issue day in and day out Violent extremism in its fullest full expression and and I think that that balanced approach is important a lot of individuals who push back particularly quite frankly within Muslim communities that CVE is in some way Again, CVE accounting violent extremism is in some way Anti-Muslim it's it's in some way against Muslims at large This community has been front and center involved with communities. We live in the community We are in the boards of community. We are in the inner city in community We give money in communities and we have engaged with extremism in all forms And so I think that's important that you know, what we tell our co-religionist to as well as that Engaging this issue in a balanced fashion Being honest the fact of the matter and I can say this you would appreciate this black-on-black crime is a tough issue to deal with I had a cousin who was shot 18 times in the chest at 17 years old That was a tough thing to deal with but that's the same issue with me Also when I was in government working on issues from being in Pakistan and Afghanistan dealing with issues and Gitmo and dealing with formers This is this is a responsibility question do it in a way that is nuance. It's surgical and it's tailored Okay, we'll turn to questions if you have a question Can you wait for the mic because we have a c-span audience and also identify yourself before you ask a question no questions This gentleman here Yes You mentioned in 1975 Eman Wafting Mohammed kind of bought on this mass conversion And you went on to talk about 300 mosque and all the professional and political figures that grew out of that movement Where is that movement today and? Where do you see yourself? Helping that move or do you? So I think and you know normally it's I'm in the sort of capacity of My analyst hat and I think this is one of those rare moments where I'm kind of playing dual hats Is it a personal side too as well? So I'm a product of this. I mean I I've studied I Study extensively throughout the Middle East and West Africa I'm a product of the community itself And so really in many respects not just me there are Thousands of others who are come from my same experience Who are in many different experience who are in many different circles? Who have been working and I think in a very balanced fashion who are very conversant in their religious understanding of Islam who take a very think middle the way approach and Have been quietly doing the work Without a lot of fanfare without a lot of conversation and have been engaged in aspects domestically and internationally And I think so I would argue that going forward that the community is still strong I think the community still is being one in which they are making sure to Advise where they can and engage with their Co-religionist as well To be frank with you. It's it's the real challenges of the This larger conversation of pushing back against extremism is also an intra Muslim conversation and that intra Muslim conversation largely isn't taking place and it's one in which The most divided hour on an America is on set on Sunday for American Christians the most divided hour for American Muslims is on Friday and If you go to any of the message the mosque in this association, there's no partition for women It's an open space for individuals to come as you are Regardless if you are religious or you're not religious at all. You can sit and serve The monster pack if you go to the oldest mosque in Washington, it's filled with diverse groups of individuals There's visitors on a regular basis. These are open spaces and they're safe spaces For people so I think it's thriving Yeah, I would say you know, I would say the community is still here I would say there is a need to exert more of its sort of presence I think like Mohammed said people are Communities are doing what they're doing working on their job in their communities doing all types of things like like people do But I think the missing piece has been Highlighting or elevating or sort of you know, I mean obviously people are doing stuff because you have you know Congress congressmen you have people in all these positions But I don't think publicly. They're still the same. There's the same Exposure and I think a lot of that is internal. I think that's you know, the community has not really engaged Media in a strategic way. I think there's also an appetite for other things I mean, I'll mention as a when I was growing I was someone who grew up out of the 80s and 90s hip-hop I was very focused on what was going on with the black community and I was from that era Right the Afro-centric era them sort of militant hip-hop era. I didn't know about him now Mohammed At all we're growing up in California personally back then And then I later, you know, my wife my wife comes from that community And I've sort of learned and much later become exposed to it and I realized all this stuff was going on And I just wasn't aware of it So it's not always that that people aren't doing everything sometimes. There's not the same exposure. That's part of it Yeah, one thing that's always struck me obviously that a lot they're American Muslim communities And that that maybe that's a good thing or a bad thing because you could you could make an argument up Take a pack which obviously is a very effective pressure group for Jews in America Do you think? It would I mean there's care. There's other groups I mean a do they speak for America Muslims writ large and be should there be some kind of analog to a pack If that's if the answer is no should there be some kind of analog to a pack that is more effective at But with the caveat that you know There's so many different groups that it's hard to kind of speak with one voice But I mean have is the American community well served by the pressure groups that exist. I guess it's a question But I think there's something unique about Islam in America that we we would be it might be a mistake To try to which actually is what has happened people trying to make Islam an ethnicity. Yeah I think that happens sort of happens by default with a lot of Islamic organizations, right? And again, it's not because of mal intent. I mean right you could go to an MSA Muslim Student Association on campus and Maybe maybe they're 90% you know South Asian which is which is fine on campus and the MSA may take on a certain ethnic flavor sometimes I think that's natural that happens But I think we have to be very careful to just assume that okay Muslims means there's going to be one common theme There are going to be political differences political, you know different aims So I don't I don't think that has to happen. I think it's fine. I think we force that we may it may be troubling I think you have to have multiple where all human beings People operate many different expressions. You need to have as many voices that are out there No one speaks for all of Islam. No one at all there are many Muslims of varying expressions and we encourage that and I think that should and particularly in our American experience and our Western experiences. These aren't it's more important than ever to amplify that diversity Somebody that I major in the Dal Hassan. He has a double first cousin coordinator Hassan You may know and he's a lawyer in Virginia and he said of something to me, which I thought was very interesting Which is you know, I'm a sort of secularized Muslim and I have a beer in the fridge I play golf I voted for George W. Bush, you know, very different from his cousin who killed that in people at Fort Hood But no one speaks for me and which I thought was an interesting because I mean the the groups that do exist our care I mean, it's very religious in flavor, right? It's a kind of quasi Muslim brotherhood organization. I guess it's some shape or form No, I think you know, listen, I think that you I think you know secular voices are important to have I mean you may disagree with me on that but I think many different voices of really showing the human experience people who are just culturally Muslim just like Just like Christians and Jewish communities as well that you know, the Palestinian issue isn't the only issue What happened to Somalia? What happened to you know, jumping up and making sure that women's empowerment issues are heard? What about your LGBTQ brothers? What about African-American church Charleston and domestic terrorism issues you have to be very respectful of our Collective American identity and I think that that's that's something that we encourage. Yes, well, there'd be disagreement absolutely We're gonna have gonna have these different viewpoints But I think it's important to have these multiple views and it doesn't have to be the quote-unquote old guard or old Institutions that have been around. Maybe they don't necessarily speak for individuals anymore Hi, thank you so much. It's been really interesting panel and I wonder if you'd comment a little bit more about a Salafi, that's not a Muslim and if you would comment a little bit about How that's played out with a whole Saudi influence of all the literature all the money coming in because we've certainly seen in Europe a pushback on that of maybe it's not a good thing and I was really curious about your comment about is it 45 percent of Muslim in America living below poverty. So that's something we never hear and And and just also, you know, if you travel in Arab countries a lot of times a lot of prejudice Against North Africans and probably against black Americans as well So that's whole bunch of things to come in town. Thank you But the I think you know one of the things is the communities particularly in associate Mohamed, you know, they have soup kitchens There are just from Muslim Muslim Americans. They're for all Americans. You can come in and get a warm meal Right down the street in Washington in my hometown in Alabama in California I can go anywhere and they open their home. They open their homes They open their their centers to help everyone they you man Muhammad was one of the first was the first individual to be involved with activities You know, I recognize that, you know My neighbor was an orthodox Jewish family that I used to go over for Shabbat dinners and I respected them and I Also grew up next to or near and that evangelical friends and Catholic friends Etc. And I think that that's important I think you know, I give you that point just as an example to say that, you know, the Muslim community isn't all wealthy and Successful there are individuals who are struggling to meet day-to-day needs and they need spiritual support but they also need jobs and any resources and the community takes that very seriously to address those in a balanced fashion as Relates to you know, racial issues. I think in the Muslim community You know, listen, I could tell you many occasions studying in Egypt and studying in Maracos Where individuals and this I was watching a video recently where individuals they they may not know the assumption that you know a language and The words that you hear It's quite interesting as you can imagine and so I only give you that to say that you know That's that's the reality of life, right that there there are individuals who particularly within Even faith-based communities. There's even a racial hierarchy even in Islam. We recognize that there is There is a there's that issue taking place I think Muslims particularly in this community have been vocal about it and sometimes that criticized for their vocalization of that Muslims haven't always lived up to the standard of What they say they believe despite religious mandates, etc The Salafi thing on the cup I'm in. Oh, yeah, I'll maybe touch on it with maybe a little twist, which is I think the idea of a Salafist trait becoming Adopted by folks who are not Muslim Relates to the idea that it's Muslims particularly in the US have really had this ability to make certain things cool and Let that spread And if you go back to I mean just think about Muhammad Ali even if you think about Malcolm X and the original nation of Islam the impact where to be Muslim and to have a Muslim name became a thing of pride if You might not have been Muslim But if you you thought about Islam in the African-American context as someone who was prideful, you know doing for self, right? Islam Islamic features took on something in the cultural context now I think though that There that's a good sign of what needs to happen now Because I mean I can point to the legacy, you know the early early 60s legacy of Muslims I what I'm just sort of interested in and I'm thinking a lot about is so what's the legacy now, right? So when we think of African-American, you know African-American Muslims We can think of folks from the past and we can see how their culture sort of spread and impacted the broader society What about now and then these are some of the things that we're thinking about as we as we engage youth as we engage culture pop culture What is Islamic because Islam should be I think Islam is cool, you know I think it's really cool And I think there are aspects of it that could be you know should be wrapped up and in a very positive way To fit the needs of of the broader community African-American community and the broader American community in general I think we I think that's a good thing this Just blind talk this back up Hi, I'm Kevin Russell with the Marquis International So a quick question for you comparing the African-American Muslim experience to the experience of Muslims abroad Do you think the reason why violent extremism never kind of evolved through evolve from the African-American community is Because they have legitimate means of influencing the political system I mean, I think the American experience that sort of gets the idea of maybe the American exceptionalism I think there's a there is a big difference So I'll acknowledge that you're gonna have extremists, right? You're gonna have folks who rise this message will resonate with them, right? It's gonna be impossible to to quote-unquote inoculate everyone But I know when I was really when I was in the CT realm working in the government, you know One of the key things that that we thought a lot about was well What is so different about America that we don't see the same type of radicalization the same type of plotting as we see Overseas some of it is cultural some of it is structural some of it is even geographic Right in Europe. Where are you in Europe in Europe in the in the early 2000s, right? When the Iraq war was going on and folks coming from Iraq and Afghanistan, you're in net We're you're in the middle of networks whether in Germany where jihadists are moving from Chechnya in Europe it's very easy to connect with those networks a lot A lot of this has changed now with with with the internet But but back in those days you didn't you know It was very easy to connect with the jihadist group in Europe here in the United States much more difficult the US We're blessed in many ways of by being a big island Where you don't have the same yeah, there's still radicalization radical preachers and all that you you'll have that But that's the structural I do think culturally there has all there has been a more there's more openness to religion in the United States generally because of the American history and religion being a part of it or Openness for religion people don't shun it in the same way as maybe in Europe So that allows for people not only to just engage the political sphere, but allows them to have associations of Islam I mean because think about it if if the jihadist message is that in the West is keeping you from fulfilling your religion And is against your prayer But if if you're having your Islamic life right all the things that you typically traditionally you need to quote-unquote be Muslim You're able to do that and you're also able to engage the society as that you know Authentically as a Muslim and again not perfect everyone you know doesn't fit for everyone But I think we have more of that in the United States Hi Can you lay out more specifically the recommendations from your report on how the example of Imam Muhammad's community can be used for CV efforts in other communities So I laid out a few already, but I think that one is and I'll just walk through a couple of them in the recommendations One we recommend engaging African-American Muslim imams I think that it's important from their experience having worked in the prison system understanding and dealing with various individuals who have varying degrees of ideological interpretation including some who are very hard in Salafi to I think just African-American moms who have been able to travel overseas some who are you know all of us I think many I was when I was a young boy. My father was the mom the master grew up in I was his Arabic translator I just read through these nerdy texts and I was going through the muwata Mammalik and said are various religious texts and being of resource so they have sort of I think the religious Understanding but are very much part of the American experience as well. I think that the one secondly We offer pilot an alternative to preventing violent extremism Program basically offering Just preventative tools off ramping efforts some of the work that obviously we've been doing with quilliam and working point-to-point with Individuals who've already been radicalized and offering alternative expressions. I mean the formula of Imam Muhammad of changing individuals to not want to go overthrow the state and Actually making them part of the American fabric and not having them stay into a black nationalist rhetoric and framing seems very similar to the issues that we hear about through the broader Arab world through out Pakistan or Pakistan and the larger subcontinent that can be very helpful Thirdly we offer what we consider a rapid response as it relates to individuals I think we've titled a rapid response office within the usd to prevent or counter violent extremism essentially Having individuals who are well equipped to deal with these issues. There's a lot of individuals who are working this problem set But I've just come on this issue really quickly overnight The Trump administration doesn't employ the term countering violent extremism and didn't use some of them There was money from which is gonna run out at certain point that was supporting And of course, you know, it's hard to measure success with countering violent extremism But it seems that the Trump administration has realized they need something and they're calling it countering terrorism So they've changed the name but they Well, how do you assess what the Trump administration is or is not doing in this space? Well, you know with the new appointment of John Bolton at the NSC It would be very interesting in terms of the language that may be used I mean, I think quite frankly a lot of people were thinking, oh There's an uproar on counter radical Islam. We didn't see that. I mean, ultimately, we haven't seen it Well in the national security strategy, which is written by John Bolton's predecessor a John McMaster and his team They didn't use any of these phrases. They they talked about jihadist terrorism. They didn't talk about Islamic or so then but Yeah, so we just don't know. Yeah, we don't know. Yeah, I think that the jury is still out to see what it will take place I mean in all fairness, I mean, there's a lot of pushback one can give to the administration I think that the administration quite frankly, they didn't use that language yet. We will see Relatedly, what did you make when Trump President Trump traveled to Riyadh and gave a big speech Which was sort of the analogue of President Obama speech in Cairo, but for President Trump, but what did you make of that speech? Earlier the last year May 20. Yeah, basic. I mean, you know, I I think I don't have a strong opinion. I think yeah, so I don't have a strong opinion I think the speech could have been given by Obama minus the Iran bashing. I think you know, maybe some of the It seemed like a fairly When you're gonna get that's the thing right when it has been in government, right? I mean when it's easy to say a lot of things when you're out campaigning, but then when you go and you're the guest of You know when you're writing the actual strategy, there's there's a there's a big difference And if that's one thing we can share which is the difference The political sphere where Islam is talked about is very different in many ways From what happens when you're really making decisions trying to write policy trying to engage communities or engage governments It's very different. And so so that would probably explain that, you know, the tone of that conversation of that lady here Can you wait for the microphone and identify yourself this way see if that way the c-span audience knows who you are and can hear you This presentation I'm I mean up from from the bridge initiative at Georgetown University on Islamophobia I had a question on the Tafaka program you had that was mentioned in your Report, um, I just wondering how did you determine who would be best? Chosen to be participate in this Tafaka program How did you develop the curriculum and what is your overall impact and assessment of the effectiveness of the Tafaka program? So the Tafakor program is a Tafakor in Arabic to think to ponder to reflect that's what it means And so the Tafakor project initially started as a pilot project in Washington, DC And we work with a cross-section of individuals Muslim non-Muslims white black South Asian Arab Latino etc and in the curriculum it was a trying to come up with the issues of critical thinking Helping young people to think deeply about issues and do it in a fashion where it's in a safe space environment So in Washington DC We borrowed and used very much from the Socratic method. So being able to brainstorm ideas do it in a fashion where you can then Co-construct a way of looking for a solution to simplify it the curriculum obviously was very much tailored toward in this case US specific diverse Issues from geopolitics to modernity to history broader American history We also were able to do this obviously recently in Nigeria Where we deal with Islamic civilization and culture critical thinking using the Socratic method Islamic philosophy Western philosophy and from there Addressed the issues in this case in the Northeast Nigeria who are dealing with day in and day out Actions of the Islamic State in West Africa and also Boko Haram We happen to be there last month and we were dealing with the issue of the 110 girls who abducted and dupche So this was Over a group of 45 individuals the goal is to continue to expand this out And so the measurement of success is what we've seen so far as one an increased amount of learning to being able to apply Critically thinking in an open space with their counterparts in the Northeast so issues of gender issues of differing religious viewpoints the issues of How to engage the government itself in a way where it's constructive And you have a real life Trial participant because my son my teenage son was part of your first to fuck our circle in DC My son participated and the thing I would say that it gave him was Just an appreciation for critical thinking and doing it in an environment where he's with his peers, right? I mean you all were coaching and but it was you know group of young teenagers meeting Discussing these issues and it wasn't a debate. It was sort of a discovery and and It was it was for him. I think something that has helped him become a more probing, you know deeper thinker This lady here hi, my name is Kristen Garrity Shakerji, and I work at the bridge initiative at Georgetown University Muhammad I believe earlier you said that entrapment is a counterterrorism tool for law enforcement Can you please clarify what you mean by this and how entrapment fits within this so-called counter radicalization model that you and William have identified in this report So I think that what I was framing is that law enforcement throughout the US have been using entrapment in particular communities throughout particular urban communities have been dealing with this in the report you can see it For a long period of time So there shouldn't be a surprise that entrapment is in some way Unique to just particularly I know Muslim communities have pushed back to say that in some way have been singled out As an African American as an African American as a Muslim I recognize that these are two dynamics that are very much part and parcel of law enforcement techniques and tools It's been used since the days of Hoover, so I don't see that as a particular anything to to be to be It's not a surprise and so I think that with with communities thinking that this will be something that will change overnight I think with policy with Advocating if individuals are wanting to be engaged in that certainly that can be part of but I think it's it's nothing new And so I say that that's part of a larger counterterrorism tool Saying that that's part of a larger law enforcement law part of a larger intelligence security Effort that has been taking place for decades Just to clarify I mean There's no terrorism case in which entrapment has been argued successfully as a defense So it because entrapment has a very specific even if it from a legal point of view, it's not entrapment It usually when the undercover informant goes in he he says the person Four or five times on tape, you know, you really want to do this And it's you know, that's very persuasive if it goes to a jury trial or and or a strong argument to take a plea Yeah, but the use of informants, I think you know as Mohammed saying, you know The use of informants is is part of the law enforcement toolkit This gentleman here, I think this will be the last question Grayson slover the student at the University of Colorado You guys both touched on how it's important that we talk honestly about counter extremism and radicalism And it seems to me that there's a unique problem at in doing that on the political left today I think a pretty good example of that is the founder of your organization being mislabeled by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a anti-Muslim extremist which is pretty ridiculous in my mind So I guess my question is um, how How would you recommend that we attack that problem and try to create some unity on our side and Attacking a problem that should be a universal one that we all should want to solve I think you captured it. Well, I mean I think that there are there's you know individuals and organizations that I've been around They've done some good work historically But I think they've lost their bearings a bit in the contemporary context and so We believe in constructive engagement with all sides and I think that the left the right And perhaps those who are heavenly above need to find out a careful balance of how do we Work in a nuanced fashion on these issues and just labeling individuals that can get people hurt get people killed can affect people's lives including death threats and And I think that it has to be done in a way where it's its balance And so particularly the work of Culliam with me being head of it to as well in North America is is to keep and keep that balance that's moving forward and This report is part of that to as well showing that balance fashion I mean everything that we've said today I think is part and building off of the tradition of the great work of the community ma'am Ahmed But also the work that we seek to have coalitions across all political isles and various communities as well And I would say I think you're right and a lot of this You know I come from the the standpoint that often we think about things based on what we are exposed to right? And and what we expose ourselves to and I think the biggest thing I'm seeing in this Environment where everyone is in their corners and in their camp and and there seems to be more interest in proving your point of view The thing I think that that I'd like to bring is just exposure right? I mean how often do you get to talk to? Muslims who've worked in counterterrorism right a lot of people have views about counterterrorism that they've gotten from watching MSNBC or Fox news right have they ever talked to a counterterrorist someone who knows counterterrorism have they ever talked to a Muslim counterterrorism Person and people who are against CVE But have they ever dealt with someone who's maybe a dread dealt with the FBI and understands a little bit about these Informant issues and and that nuance I think that's a key thing We need just more exposure if you have exposure to someone who has been on the radical side Who's been radicalized and has had certain ideas if you're not exposed to them? How are you even going to understand it? So I think we have to get more we have to get away from just trying to prove our positions because we have our Organization we want our organization to get points and really engage and learn because my thought at the end of the day I'll end with a quote that I think Is is is appropriate which is in terms of you know, why aren't why aren't people why don't we have this more? Why don't we have these sort of forums and learn about these unique experiences and I'll quote the famous or infamous? Doughboy from the movie boys in the hood that either they don't know they don't show or they don't care and And you know we have to sort of really put that to people like do we really want to solve this problem? Do we really want to engage and show what's going on or do we just want to sort of be with ourselves and prove our points? And that's I think what we have to address Want to thank both of you gentlemen very much for a really interesting and illuminating conversation