 Felly, dyma ymlaen, roedd ydych yn gwybod. Dwy'n gwybod i'n ddweud beth sy'n gwybod i'r adegolion o'i ddysgu adegolion ddechrau. Yn nesaf, yma yw Milika. Felly, mae'n ddegosio'n gwybod i'r adegolion gwybod i'r adegolion ddechrau. Mae gen i'n dod yn ymlaen i'r event ar y 7 olybod. Felly, mae'n drwy'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'r adegolion i'r adegolion. We have known each other for a couple of years now. We have worked together on the D-Pedaptation Forum holding group. I am particularly enlivened at the moment. One of the things I have particularly enjoyed getting to know about you is this incredible multidimensionality that you bring to your work and your life. Holding this maybe both ways of being very, very practical and very clear and also very deep, rich, intuitive wisdom. I am hoping that the people who have joined us today will be able to hear some of that from you. Malika, shortly I am going to ask you to introduce yourself. First of all, here are some headlines to give people an idea of how you have come to be here with D-Pedaptation. Malika has been working for the last 15 years in the field of natural resource management and sustainable consumption and production. She has worked as a sustainability practitioner, as a scientist and as a facilitator. She applies system thinking, mindfulness and embodied practices to support people in companies, in NGOs, in universities and in development organisations to move towards systemic and holistic change. As a scientist, she does participatory research on the topic of sustainable agriculture, trade and mining, indigenous rights and ecosystem services. Malika, I would really love it if you could tell us a little bit more about yourself as a person. Thanks Katie. And thanks, I think you introduced it really beautifully to say I'm a very deeply practical person and at the same time, since I was a kid, I really felt I could, I really felt a strong connection and communication with nature and I've always used the sense felt that I have in nature to deepen. My connection with people as well. So I think that describes me a little bit. And I don't know, Katie, if you want to know a little bit of my background. Yeah, I'd love to. Thank you Malika. And also maybe something about how your journey has led you to hear involvement in D-Pedaptation and talking to me on this topic. Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, in preparing this interview, I was reflecting a little bit about my journey. I come from Mauritius, which is a small island, so I grew up with a very mixed tradition. Mauritius has, I'm of Indian origin, Mauritius has also African slaves that were brought by Europeans there. So I grew up with Hinduism as practice and tradition, but also whenever we were sick or there were problems in the family, we went to local shamans who practiced black medicine. So that was a very lively part of my life. And so I feel like East African and also had a very European education. As I mentioned, I had a really deep connection to nature from a young age and I didn't have in Mauritius because we were all displaced, you know, everyone came from a different part. I really sensed from a young age that I didn't have any spiritual guide to have maybe this nature connection and the only guide were nature. And when I began to work in sustainability, I also felt how sustainability practitioners also hadn't been initiated into this nature connection, this adulthood as well. And I really struggled with that a lot and my journey was towards deep adaptation came through observing first of all how much mini collapses were happening all around the world. I was working with WWF on some of the climate witnesses stories, so basically recording what fishermen and farmers were saying about climate change and looking at whether the scientific evidence matched that. And I began to realize that many societies had gone through cultural collapses already and we were having now mini ecosystem collapses and yet everyone was going on. Normally, you know, and it was not when I was reflecting on for this interview I realized it was not until 2018 that many things came together at least at the planetary level also for me as well in 2018. In 2018, Jam published his paper. I think greater was also shaking the world with her speeches and also the extinction rebellion had really grown and in 2018 I became involved with extinction rebellion with deep adaptation, and I was also moved very moved by greater. I realized for me I felt because my scientists and I've been working with the University of Oxford on climate change, I really realized how much scientists were living in cognitive dissonance and greater couldn't live in dissonance. She couldn't separate the science and the emotions and I was shocked to realize to what extent we have all, you know, like it was just unconscious that practice of dissonance. And I felt like she was a teacher to us you know she taught us how to stop this dissonance. And because scientists they were telling us how bad the science was but they were going to bed every night and sleeping you know, but she couldn't do that she couldn't do that. And I think Jam also had that realization, and, and was trying to convey that message as well. And that started to bring also I stopped also, I stopped living in this dissonance. And I think, yeah, since then, yeah, and then I joined the deep adaptation forum I think that's a little bit in a nutshell my journey. I'm going to talk a little bit more about this phenomenon later on. Yeah, thank you. I'm about to ask you to talk about. Yeah. First, if you don't mind talking about your own. What the integration of collapse awareness means to you now. And maybe how that's changed if it has. And I know I'm thinking in particular about the. Yeah, so for you personally the emotional journey because I know that you, I'm thinking of the article that you guest wrote for gems blog, why make time to feel. And then specific and then more specifically about how you've. What impact this has made on the work that you do and how you do that work. And I just want to remind participants here that you can submit questions for Malika and already send them directly to Stuart in the chat. Yeah. Thanks Katie. I think I'm still learning how to integrate collapse. At the planetary level, you know. As I mentioned, I had a strong felt sense that I was part of a postcollab post cultural collapse society in any case, you know, but at the level that we are experiencing, I think I'm still integrating. You know, I'm still integrating that in my body and and observing what am I being called for as I'm integrating that in my body. I, I think for a long time I. As I said, I had a deep nature connection, but, and I felt really ashamed to be human, I felt really, I didn't like being human, I really hated being human and I. Yeah, I. When I begin to integrate collapse more into my body. I had a strong sense and I was hearing that from a lot of spiritual teachers that collapses a form of initiation for for us into adulthood. And when I realized maybe I was an adolescent or the time that's why I was hating myself, and I was hating humanity. It was a somehow a big relief. I mentioned, we haven't been most of us haven't been initiated into adulthood because we are part of postcollab societies that have lost a lot of their indigenous traditions. We were not initiated, we were not initiated into adulthood and most of us as adults are still adolescents. And I begin to read about it and see what do indigenous tradition see as if you made that initiation what is it characterized by. It's very simple in some ways is is to to to manifestation one you have moved from being egocentric on the self. You know, imagine how adolescents are, you know, to egocentric you have a sense of being part of the web of life you are an interbeing, you act and respond to phenomena and feeling part of the web of life the mountains the sea. And other humans as well. So that's one sign of being an that you have moving to adulthood and one is being authentic to your to your unique spiritual being and psychological being. I realize that actually that that that most of us haven't had this initiation and when I work with you now on the street I am a lot into social movement but was also with deep adaptation when I work with people I realize that climate change is forcing us into that into that initiation because we've lost the practices and that. And that really changed something for me at a very deep level towards my relationship about being human, but to other human being and to my. And yeah, yeah, so that changed my relationship. And then I realized that I think I realized that, although we are being initiated, we still need to have a lot of spiritual practices, because I'm really afraid of the intergenerational anger or intergenerational trauma that will be triggered. I can understand why the youth will ask us why have we been in denial. Why have we been in dissonance, why have we been in dissociation for so long. And I'm called for to help with spiritual practices how to how to, you know, how to work with those. Yeah, does that make sense Katie. It does make sense as there's a lot coming up for me as I'm listening to you. Yeah, explain and describe. Your insights through this journey, particularly around this reorientation to recognising that we are all stuck in an adolescent stage and that and that a lot of compassion can unfold from that compassion for self and compassion for everybody. Yeah. I was also, I was also. Yeah, thinking about the fact that in Western modern cultures what what you describe as post cultural collapse. We don't have any rights passage of the kind that you're that you're talking about and they're, they're not traditionally they're not. They're not safe by definition. It's a it's a period of transformation where a lot is lost and it's not a safe space. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I think that initiation is a bit like it's, it's, it's, it's either transformed or you or you disintegrate, I think. And, and, you know, that's why many of the initiations were very. What you can call as hardcore rituals, you know, you were left, I was reading, even among the bus in Europe, you were left for one year in the pyramid to, you know, survive on your own. That was your initiation from adulthood into from adolescence into adulthood. They were not, you know, workshop, light workshop initiation. No, they were deep. Yeah, they really were deep practices, very hardcore practices and climate change forces us into this hardcore practices and in which we don't know whether we are going to disintegrate and or transform and that uncertainty is important in that deep practice. Because that uncertainty, we learn that we learn that we cannot control, you know, our fear of our fear of impermanence, we have to work with our fear of impermanence, because that only for that fear can something emerge, working with that fear. And, and yeah, I think a number of fears we're going to have to work with with climate change. I was also thinking, you know, that fear of chaos, you know, of lack of control and what's behind the fear of lack of control is the fear to be incompetent and to be insignificant. And we have for so long felt so competent on earth and felt so significant. Now we are having to have this initiation of our fear of impermanence, our fear of incompetence, our fear of insignificance. And they are very big fears to work with. Yeah, and as I'm speaking about it, I feel quite emotional and I feel my heart is thumping. It's yeah, I, and when I was preparing for the interview, I was thinking of sharing just one spiritual practice, one embodiment that might help with today, you know. Maybe I can do it now Katie. Yes, please. And you said that this is a practice that you do with young people when you're working with them. Is that right? Yes. Yes. So, so it's a very, very simple practice that I learned from Dan's movement. And it's, you know, like right now, as I'm speaking, I feel my heart. And it's a simple practice first to just caress your heart. It's, you know, like what we are being asked to go through as humans or where we brought ourselves back into initiation is very, very hard cost of that we're going to have and to just caress our fragile heart. First, we caress our fragile heart ourselves, we learn how to, you know, to accept our fragility and support that fragility. And then if you just imagine, if you're physically with other people, you can do it with other people, but it's beautiful if you can imagine someone is behind you. And you can just let your hand down because they will then caress your heart. You can still continue caressing your heart, but you just feel that somebody else is behind your back and caressing your heart. So we're in this, in this collective fragility where we're supporting each other's fragility. That's like a, how do you say that? A very simple embodiment that can really help us accept this human fragility that we are at right now. At least it really helps me. That's Malika, as I was listening to your, to your voice and following your lead there. What I noticed was an increase in my sense of presence and also an increase in my sense of vulnerability. I noticed that that was there, but as I've been sitting in this space with you, there's some little bit of protective armour I'm sitting holding this space. I need to be sensible, I need to be capable. And then suddenly I felt a lot more tenderness. Wow, that's beautiful to hear what happens. To witness that. It felt like an invitation to show up. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that tenderness that it brings when we accept that vulnerability that we are actually always trying to be in control, always trying to be capable, because we feel the predicament we are in. Yeah. Yeah, or I might also describe it in myself as pretending that I'm a grown up. I have two more questions for you and then I'm going to, we've got a couple of questions already from the people who've joined, but time for plenty more if any of you want to ask Malika your own question. So the first one relates to what you talked about with the fear of chaos and the fear of unknowing. And connecting with your experience working in as a scientist and working in sustainability and the dissonance that shows up as we've seen in the last 50 years to have been responding to increasing urgency with getting better and better at measuring things. You know, seeking deeper and deeper to find ever more granular illusion of knowingness and that it's getting in the way of. It has, I guess it's got in the way of us feeling and being able to take any meaningful collective action. About your thoughts on that. How can we reach out to the people who are doing the science and communicating the science with them with embodiment practices? Yeah. Yeah, that's a beautiful question. Yes, I think that I think you beautifully said it. I see that everywhere I work among scientists among people in the UN among NGO. The more we feel the urgency of the situation, the more we control the situation. One sense of controlling, measuring, evaluating, judging. And I know how it feels because I think that the more you don't dissociate yourself, Katie, I think you and I have been feeling that the more we feel dysfunctional. And many people are afraid to be dysfunctional, you know, because they feel like we're in a situation of urgency we need to control. And that's a little bit like we're reinforcing a pattern. And I think when we are not in dissonance and dissociation, there is a certain level of dysfunctionality because it's not normal that, you know, the way the world is operating right now. And I don't see that. I don't see among the scientists and among the communicators, among the practitioners, I don't have a sense at all that there is a level of dysfunctionality that's happening right now. I think everyone, I'm almost afraid that the IPCC report would make more of a sense of urgency and control. The only places that I see it happening is on the street with social movements. And I don't know how to change it or whether it's my role or whether it will happen by itself. I'm trying to think where am I going with that. I don't know if it's only embodiment, you know, like that needs to happen because embodiment can also be a sort of just a little rapid response, you know, to show the emotion, you know, like to be a bit connected in an instance and not continue that deep practice. So, whilst I agree we need to bring more embodiment, what I'm trying to say is that I think feeling like changing the whole way we operate. Everyone has been calling for that but stop pretending we're not in dissonance, stop pretending we're not in dissociation and stop pretending we're not in denial, you know. I go to the cup in November and, you know, like, I want to ask this question, I want to ask this question. Yeah, and I want to understand what, with every IPCC report, how have you been your personal development in those free fields, denial, dissociation and dissonance. I don't know what answer I have but I think it's, I think what I'm leaving now is that I realise that young, you know, like the young on the street today are the adults and the people that have been holding the sustainability field of the adolescents and I'm part of these adolescents. Yes, thank you. One last question, and you mentioned earlier that you were going to touch on this a little bit more and it's about the, what you talked about, post cultural collapse. The fact that you grew up in Mauritius, your work has taken you involvement in many countries in the global south, and you also have experience living and working in Europe. And I'm particularly interested in hearing from you about different perspectives on collapse. And I'm thinking particularly that there can be an inherent whiteness in many of the ways in which collapse is framed. This is not applied to everyone, of course, but this idea that there is an apocalypse is an event which will have a start and an end, it's coming for us and we have some sense of agency about how we might prep for it, whatever that means. And I'm just curious to hear from you about what different perspective you have. Yeah, maybe it's a story of healing for me, but I, so when I was working in the global south, I saw how much, you know, suffering poverty, you know, like violence, often as a result of colonisation. There are in those places. And I really felt, you know, like I felt very attuned to the land right movement to the, to the human right movement and economic right movement. I'm still very in brotherhood in those places. And in my mind, I always saw a Europe as a place of privilege, a place of non suffering. And seven years ago I moved to Europe and actually I was really shocked how much suffering there is in Europe. And I just, I just didn't realize and I realized that we remember our cultural collapses. So we can, in some ways, because we remember, we have a route to our foremost, you know, like state before collapse, you know, our traditions or a sense felt of. Who we are in our common humanity. I really felt, I had a sense of actually Europe had a cultural collapse, you know, you lost a lot of your pagan tradition, you know, like very beautiful traditions that you had. It's still captured in some old songs, but you've been lost for, you've been lost that you, you, you don't remember many things that we remember very painfully. And in some ways, because you don't remember it, it's operating and I have a sense that it's operating in an unconscious way and it's hurting you more. And when I realized that it made me so, feel so compassionate, I couldn't be in this, you know, the carp man triangle, the perpetrator, the victim and the savior. And I couldn't be in that triangle anymore because you know, like, I wanted to celebrate that extinction rebellion and deep adaptation movement have so many white people because I felt that no, they are going through that initiation. They are going from egocentric to ecocentric. They are remembering something. Of course, you know, like it's under the banner of planetary collapse, but it's all part of the same thing, you know, like indigenous people are working on their rights because that's what locally is relevant. And one thing that I really wanted to talk about is the idea of justice. I've been finding that this, this labeling a little bit problematic because I think it seems as if there is a simple solution and a simple analysis of the problem when we call it justice without giving justice to the complexity of that we're all part of post collapse societies at different times in in history. And I was thinking in preparing for this interview how I'm so grateful that reconciliation is one of the awe of deep adaptation because I feel that I want to talk less of not so much about justice but about reconciliation. Reconciliation is that in that many multi dimensional level you were mentioning before Katie. I mean in Europe is reconciling what they lost what you lost and what we lost through what you lost reconciliation between us cultures reconciliation with the earth. We don't ask justice to the earth, you know, like that, at least the earth won't ask us justice they will call us for a reconciliation, you know, if the earth could speak. As I mentioned it was a story of healing because when I saw that in Europe and I was really missing, I came because of my family my husband is German and I was really missing the south, everything about the south, you know the culture, everything. But then when I joined the social movement it feels something very painful like that had been part of many generations being part with these young people who are going through their initiation it feels something very deep within me and for me. Yes, for me. One thing that I realized also with this initiation and what I found really beautiful is that many of these people of these young people or grandmas or adults are not directly affected by climate change, but they have a sense felt of something very wrong. They have a sense felt of future generations, you know, and that's what's calling them. And that's what I want to be of service with them. One of the things that I'm hearing you describe is a kind of spirituality, which is, which is the opposite of spiritual bypass when I hear people say, Well, we're all one and everything's. So therefore there's no separation and actually a spirituality of integration and healing of the kind that you're talking about requires us to be able to feel the deep pain our own and that of other people, those who might have been framed as other with a capital O and that of the earth. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes, it resonates with me because I think that yeah, a lot of language that we're using, you know, it's all part, you know, like it will all flow, it's all one. It's, it's at some level, there's some deal, denial, silence, you know, part of it, but when we stop doing that and we really feel, we really feel it's, it's very scary to feel a lot, but it's, it's part of the initiation. Mm hmm. Thank you. Thanks, Malika. I'm really feeling moved hearing you and receiving you here. I'm going to open up now questions. We have quite a lot. A high proportion of people here have already sent in questions for you. So first of all, I'm going to ask Alan if you're ready to unmute yourself, Alan and ask Malika your question. Okay, let me begin with saying thank you to everyone. Katie for facilitating steward for taking the questions and Malika for being so open, honest, authentic and quite emotional as well. It's good to show emotion. So on the basis that less is more, I've only posted three questions so far. So it's about a choice. So I'll pick one of those if that's okay. So I'm speaking as an acknowledged man of privilege. So I am a man, I am white and well educated and I currently live in Northwest Europe. So I acknowledge all of those things. So I acknowledge that I'm seeing in my question one of my teachers is Charles Eisenstein. Who, who I know we'll all know, and he writes about unlearning, but he also writes about consciously turning towards a love based response towards the sacred into being and you've mentioned all of those terms. And, and I know we'll all be familiar with the work that we connects around Joanna Macie and the other deep connection work I'm doing is with an American called John Young, who hosts the eight shields Institute that ties in with your questions about Europeans having lost access to initiation at various in the life. So my question is, how do I respond? So how do you respond to your lack of initiation to yourself or The fact that I'm part of that privileged group. I mean subsequent questions are about me co-opting indigenous spiritual knowledge and the fact that I'm part of that privileged group. So how do you respond to your lack of initiation to yourself or the fact that I'm part of that privileged group. I mean subsequent questions are about me co-opting indigenous spiritual knowledge to deepen my spirituality. So that's another colonial act. So, so I have all of these conflicts. Yeah, yeah. So given what you said right at the beginning about living on Mauritius and being brought up there, and the cultural collapse and so on. How do I in the Western so called developed world respond because I'm working with others like me to work out how we respond. Yeah, thank you Alan. Thanks. And thank you everyone. I saw a lot of head nodding. It was really good to be able to access my own self as I saw you. You know, like as I felt you and I wanted to say thank you. Alan, I think that what I was trying to say is that what I realized about being in Europe. I thought you were a place of privilege. That's how I perceive, or I had mental models. When I came, I realized that you had lost a lot of things as well. So this concept of privilege didn't stand anymore for me because you had lost some very fundamental, fundamental traditions, fundamental way of being knowing, relating. And, and I think that you have lost more than we have lost, you know, in some ways. So I was trying to say that much compassion it brought to me when I had that realization. And that. And also, I hear your question about co-opting spiritual traditions from other indigenous societies. And I've also been listening to a lot of Charles Eisenstein and his podcast what I've heard from indigenous people is that for them they do not hold that tradition to be only theirs. So they want, you know, like all the traditions that they have had that have helped them in initiations and other transformations, they want to, they want to share it to the world. And that's why they say since 2012 the shamans recognize that they need to spread their practices back to Europe. One thing I would say on that often I feel that they want to share the wisdom, and it's for us to honor that they're sharing the wisdom and in some ways it to honor that these wisdom is becoming the wisdom of the world, you know, we're all sharing practices, you know, like we can integrate Aboriginal Native American traditions and to honor the places that they come and the people where it's coming from. And to realize that they want to share these practices because they don't hold it only for theirs, it's really of service to humanity. Thanks, we're going to have a little bit of a change of tack now. Stuart, you've got a question for Malika. I'm Malika, busy in my position of privilege somewhat. Thanks for joining us today, thanks for all you lot coming on. So I just wanted to turn back to the question of dissonance, which seems to be a thread through out what you've been saying today. And I wonder personally how much you, I wonder personally how much that dissonance might feed into the rise of authoritarianism and fascism. Yes, yes. When you ask this question, Stuart immediately thought of corona. I think we are seeing, you know, like that dissonance that dissonance means we have conflicting ideas, values and belief systems in our bodies, you know, so the mind and the heart is thinking differently. Or have different value systems. And I see that with a lot, I don't talk about vaccination to anybody because I see a lot of dissonance in that, you know, in dissonance between different in the collective versus the individual, the holistic versus the medical and, you know, like many aspect of dissonance operating in us. And instead of accepting that we are lost in dissonance, we form very strong opinions, you know, like the kind of opinions that's going around in vaccination is a sign of dissonance. And the more a society is dissonance, the more, the more someone will try to take control of, you know, like we think that they have the right answer. And I see that a lot in, yeah, I see this virus came to teachers about dissonance. It didn't appear out of random, it came to taught us something very important. I feel like it's preparing us in our initiation with climate change. So I, and then you talk about fascism. And I have it, like, when I, as I live in Europe, and I see a lot of posters around in Berlin, you know, like, I hate the far right, you know, like really violent language. I feel so, so hurt inside for them, because I feel that the left is using the same. You know, like there's so much hatred going on in, nobody is listening to each other's story, each other's stories. Maybe because we want to dissociate ourselves is dissonance happening. And I, yeah, and now I think that climate change will be used by these more movements as a, as a ball game, you know. It's going to be about the, the, the fascists are going to think that, you know, there is going to be like, you know, green dictatorial ship, you know, I'm really afraid of that. Instead of having a planetary initiation, you know, we might fall into green dictatorship, you know, at least some form of more control. And I'm really afraid of that. And yeah, I'm afraid of that. And that's why I feel called to work with, with, with people who are on the street, because I think they will head into, into us not getting there. Thanks for your questions, Stuart. Thank you for sharing your, your insight, Malika, and quite grave and scary. Yeah. Several of the questions that, that we've received unsurprisingly are very much about the, the how. You know, given this dissonance given the lack of rights of passage given the mental models that have been exported nearly all over the world. The, what are the practices what are the next steps and I'm going to go to Susan to ask your question please. Katie me. Yeah. Okay. Hi Malika. This is very powerful. Thank you. I was thinking about as you were talking about not remembering or Katie might have been talking about that too. And also about. I was thinking at the same time about being anesthetized to being numb. And it seems like both of those are in operation. I, it's, it's another kind of how question in a way, but, but do those seem to go together. Do you, do you, do you have anything to say about both amnesian and an anesthetic. You know, thing going on to. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Susan. And I could really feel your presence isn't so. I mean, I don't know if I have a good answer to you I know from trauma from anyone who has, you know, we know from trauma research that when you go through it something that really traumatize your body you first go through an amnesia. And any time it comes you are necessarily yourself. So I think these are automatic body responses that we do when we are not conscious. And I think everything that I've spoken denial dissonance dissociation automatic responses to protect the body. It's a protective response. We can only this. I realize that will for me. I've lived in dissonance and I can only stop being in dissonance now. Because there is enough of a collective now to support me not to be that because otherwise I would really have end up in an asylum or something I would not have been able to function in society. Literally I would not have been able to function because I wouldn't know I couldn't be anything. And so they have been there for a protective function. And now that we are having enough of a threshold of humanity that is moving from eco centric to eco centric, we can collectively we can let down this barriers because we couldn't do it individually before, unless we wanted to, you know, end up, you know, you know, like stopping part of society. I think that's a real gift that we have right now is that threshold of the collective that's moving from eco centric to eco centric. And I think, I mean, I love the what did not hunt says I think it is the next Buddha would be the summer will be the collective and I think I really have a sense of. It's the collective that will help us to not be in denial not be in this situation and not be in not be in dissonance because the world has gone so further in this development in this mental models that you know like individually we just won't be able to do it. Yeah, does that answer your questions is and I don't talk about practices but I think it's like those collective practices that we will do you and I you know of different cultures reconciling something. Yes, that that does answer it. And I think about just for myself personally. I think about feeling more deeply and and it's happening anyway, and it does often feel when I'm there that I am disintegrating and that I could go mad. It is scary and and I you know, I can understand why I went numb for a lot of years for just personal reasons but so it's really a tough one. The whole thing is very, very hard, and I happen to live in an area that is not necessarily consciousness has not moved tremendously. Yeah. Thanks for your courage Susan and I think this is the kind of stories that the youth will need to hear when they will ask us why have we been in denial, why have we been in dissonance, why have we been in this situation, you know, like to hear the stories of why we had to, why we couldn't get out of it. Yeah, thank you for your question Susan and Igor like to your question for Malika please. Thank you Katie and Malika. The question is simple and in the same time a bit personal, like in the situation you described and we're in, what are you going to do now, I mean near term, maybe long term if you do plans and what are the right things to do as you think. I'm still figuring this out. On a day to day level I have to figure out what am I going to do. All I know is what I have to do is not to be denial, dissonance and dissociation, you know, like to just feel the full things of what my body is feeling different parts of my body. And that's as simple as that. The second thing I used to be super afraid of people I couldn't even communicate as a young child I had trouble speaking. And as the more I feel and the more I, the more I'm authentic to myself, the more I found that it's not so difficult to speak and that I enjoy being with you, and that I enjoy being human. And, and I'm not so enjoying my connection to people not only to nature because I always had that has been a good force of knowing what to do. And also I love this word that's coming to me all the time is to be of service, you know, and I used to be to think on your being of service to nature. But now I'm thinking of being actually when I connect to all of you I want to be of service to everybody regardless of the color culture age. Yeah, it's like I'm called to to be of service. And yeah, that word is very hard to say that has a center stage in my life now. And I don't know what I'm going to do, but I know I want to be of service. Thank you. Thanks ago. Thanks, I think we might have time we've got time for at least one more question. Yeah, and then maybe I'll finish up with with a question of my own if I still have it at the end. So, Jane, would you like to unmute yourself and ask your question please. Yes. Thank you. And thanks, Malika. I found your speaking very, very interesting. So mine is really a practical question. I am a co counselor, which is a form of peer support for personal development and emotional literacy. And as a consequence of that I have at quite a lot of times in my life felt very intensely connected to other people in a way that fills me with joy and facility and makes me open and loving and And that's how I love to be. I live in a very small village in Scotland, very isolated, full of lovely neighbors, well, rife with factions and bickering and fighting and attempts to grab control of things and I would like to know the best practical ways, the best practices that you see to take to people at a really basic level who don't have any inkling of what they might, how they might be or what they might feel. Is it around climate change or in general? In general, but of course that is also climate change. And collapse. Yeah, I don't know. I feel that you're already doing it because the way you speak I could really feel like, you know, like that you're connecting to people on a deep level and it brings you joy and a source of, you know, a source of inspiration. So you probably already fulfilling your purpose in the community. So I don't really have any practical thing when it comes to climate change. Because I struggled with that I have a very rich community of friends who are dancers and artists and I still don't know I struggle how to bring climate change because they are still in, you know, with that, you know, like they are full of life and they can go and enjoy or they have their own problems of their own. And now you bring climate change and I still struggle. If this question is coming from a climate change angle, I can, I can relate to that. I think I've learned not to force things, not to force things, but not to want people to be in my shoes to feel things the way I'm feeling. And at the same time not to not talk about it, you know. I don't know if that's helpful and whether it was the direction you wanted to go. Thanks. Yes, it wasn't quite the direction, but I know we're running short of time, and there are some useful stuff in the chat for me now so thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much, Jane Malika. Thank you so much. Thank you to everybody who sent questions and apologies if I didn't get to asking your question. There were several on this same theme of the how. How do we help scientists to X, Y and Z? How do we engage best with our community? And then, yeah, my reflection on that is it's really kind of typical and predictable in this kind of forum is Malika's here in the middle of the screen. She's the expert and please tell us how and what to do. So we heard, yeah, we did hear some really, really practical and some questions on that, but I also just wanted to acknowledge that there's the not knowingness and the discomfort with the not knowingness is here accompanying us in this Q&A as well. So I would like to say again a huge thanks to each of you who has joined. Thank you to Stuart for capably holding the technical side of this Q&A. And Malika, huge appreciation for you joining us today and sharing with us. Thanks very much. Thanks for inviting me and thanks everyone for listening. And yes, I want to finish with the word of Katie that yes, it's, you know, like it's this sense of not knowing for all of us as well, including myself. And it's only through connecting to our self and to each other and to nature are we going to have slowly know what is the right thing at every one step. Yeah, yeah, this slowing down as I hear you speak it doesn't preclude taking steps. It just helps bring a bit more wisdom to those choices. It's been a pleasure. Each of you will receive an email in a day or two with the link to the recording of this and also information of gems next to Q&A, which will be on the 7th of October. And thank you very much for joining. Be well and I look forward to seeing you next time. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye.