 Good evening and welcome to the last Monday night Tiskey where you won't be able to go to a pub garden afterwards and get pissed. Yes, we have seven days until a significant stage of the unlocking process in seven days time. We will be able to drink in pub gardens, get haircuts, I think go to gyms. Ash, I can't remember every single one. What's the one that you're most excited about? Eyebrow threading. It's a niche one, but when it comes to facial definition, I've always said that eyebrows are the boobs of the face. They're intended to draw the eye, creates a much needed intrigue and definition. So yeah, I'm going to be turning up to next Monday's Tiskey Sour with beautiful eyebrows and also absolutely legless. Fabulous. Obviously, yes, Boris Johnson today gave a very, I suppose, high profile press conference where he confirmed that we are on track for the unlocking, which he promised a couple of months ago from next Monday. But the big headline was not that things are going to plan even though they are, but that the government seems to have changed its tune when it comes to vaccine passports. We'll be discussing tonight whether this is a reasonable policy to reopen those places where social distancing will never be possible, such as nightclubs, football stadiums, or is this just one step to a dystopian big brother that pretends it's for public health. We are also going to be talking about the big announcement on lateral flow tests. I'm going to be speaking to an expert in the field. And we're going to discuss the latest in terms of the police crackdown on the movement against the policing and crime bill. And talk about a labor right-wing or a Blair right who, I suppose, chatted lots of bullshit on the radio on Sunday. As ever, do make sure you share the show link to it on the hashtag Tiskey Sour. Keep sending as you super chats and put your comments under the Twitch stream. Now, on the issue of vaccine passports, Boris Johnson has been on quite a journey. This was his stance on February 15th. I think inevitably, there will be great interest in ideas like can you show that you've had a vaccination against COVID in the way that you sometimes you have to show that you've had a vaccination against yellow fever or other diseases in order to travel somewhere. I think that's going to be very much in the mix down the road. I think that is going to happen. What I don't think we will have in this country is as it were, vaccination passports to allow you to go to, say, the pub or something like that. That was February 15th. Let's fast forward to March the 25th here. He suggested the need for vaccinations could in fact be left up to pub landlords. I do think that the basic concept of vaccine certification should not be totally alien to us because after all, when you're entrusted with care of a patient and you say you're a surgeon, you're expected to have a vaccination against hepatitis B, the principle is there. I think that that's the kind of thing that may be up to individual publicans will. It may be up to the landlord. So in February, he says we won't have vaccine passports in pubs. By March, it's probably going to be up to the pub landlord. There was obviously a big announcement on it today. Let's see what Boris Johnson's latest line on vaccine passports is. I think the most important thing to say to everybody listening and watching is that there is absolutely no question of people being asked to produce a certification or COVID status report when they go to the shops or to the pub, garden or to the hairdressers or whatever on Monday. And indeed, we're not planning that for step three either. May the 17th, as you know, we're hoping to go for the opening up of indoor hospitality and so on. We're not planning for anything of that kind at that stage. There are complicated ethical and practical issues, as I think I said last time, raised by the idea of COVID status certification for vaccination, using vaccination alone. Just because after all, many people will be for one reason or another unable to get a vaccine for medical reasons, for instance, or perhaps because they're pregnant or whatever. So you've got to be very careful in how you handle this and don't start a system that's discriminatory. But obviously we're looking at it. We want to be going ahead in the next few weeks with some test events, some pilot events, which you can see in the roadmap that we've laid out. And big events like getting 20,000 people into Wembley on May the 15th, that kind of thing, getting people back into a theater, that will unquestionably involve testing to allow the audience really to participate in the numbers that people want. So that was Boris Johnson today, very keen to suggest that vaccine passports won't be rolled out to the general population in the next two phases of the unlocking. So that's not until at least the 21st of June. That's when most venues or all venues, I suppose, are supposed to open from that point in time. You also heard him there suggesting that some of the concerns that he originally had about vaccine passports are ameliorated because now people will be given an option to also have a test. So if you haven't yet had a vaccine, if you don't want a vaccine, if you haven't been offered or you can't have one for medical reasons, then instead you could get a lateral flow test, 24 hours or whatever the time limit is before the event. Or if you can prove you had COVID in the previous six months, that will mean that you also are entitled to an immunity certificate or whatever they end up calling it. The concrete announcement is that this certification scheme will be trialled at some large spectator events in the coming months. That includes the FA Cup semi-final and final. I doubt actually this full system is going to be in place for the semi-finals because that's in two weeks time, but the final is the 15th of May and they seem very confident that they want to have that as an event where to get in you have to show your vaccine passport. Ash, what do you make of the vaccine passport plan? Okay, so before I get into the criticisms, I can of course see the upsides of it. There are upsides in terms of being able to safely facilitate the gathering of people, minimize the need perhaps for social distancing as well so you can have a bit more ambiance, you can have a bit more of that sense of being in a crowd and really relaxing and not constantly monitoring your distance between people. Those are all lovely things, but I'm instinctively uncomfortable and I'm instinctively uncomfortable when this government in particular wants to expand its powers of surveillance and exclusion even if it's for relatively trivial or non-essential social gatherings like a football match or a night club and what have you. The idea that that's going to be where the government is sticking its beak in more than it already does, I think puts me off in a very big way. This government has not used powers responsibly. Two, when you think about what kind of infrastructure will be needed to set it up and make it work, well we had a test and trace system which was essentially a slush fund for corporate buddies of government ministers. So it was an opportunity for huge transfers of public money into private hands where you also didn't end up with a system that even worked. So there are specific problems in terms of how will this government go about doing it. And then I think there's a third thing which is about fairness and inclusion. So there aren't any plans as you said to have vaccine passports to get into pharmacies or doctors offices or supermarkets, basic essentials will still sort of be protected. But why shouldn't an undocumented migrant or someone with precarious status be able to go to the pub or a football match or something like that? It's not just about immigration status. It's also things like learning difficulties and old age and there are community centers which take the form of cafes and pubs and hospitality venues which often are real lifelines to people who are really vulnerable in lots of ways. And they're exactly the kinds of people who tend to get squeezed out when you introduce new forms of identity barriers before you can access a kind of social space. I remember when I was working in a pub like some of our most frequent and beloved regulars were exactly that kind of person. Someone who was kind of already on the margins didn't have a huge social network or support system that they could rely on, weren't particularly well off and being able to come to the pub every day was their contact with other people. And so introducing a barrier to that which is always going to disproportionately impact those kinds of people, people with precarious immigration status, people with learning difficulties and other kinds of disabilities, people who don't have much money, real capital or indeed the kind of social capital you need to navigate these systems, those are all things that make me uncomfortable. Yeah I mean I think it's clearly the big issue which we'd need a lot of reassurance about is how long is this going to last because quite plausibly it could just be a six-month system which ends afterwards and also where do they draw the line about where it will be used because you can imagine you know if it's impossible to open the FA Cup final without it then you know having an FA Cup final which isn't as inclusive as it normally would be I mean I don't think they're normally particularly inclusive events anyway probably were for if it then once you've introduced it for that you end up introducing it for all pubs I can see your argument about how that becomes exclusionary in quite an important way and let's look at the justification from you know the government themselves. We got confirmation that these trials were taking place when Michael Gove wrote in the Sunday Telegraph this weekend so these were his justifications for the move so Gove writes if we do accept that Covid certification is going to be required to travel abroad the question then follows can these certificates help in other ways if Israel can accelerate its citizens returns to nightclubs football stadia and theaters with these certificates might we given the hit the night time economy and the entertainment sector has taken over the last year anything which might help businesses reopen sooner must be worth considering that is why the government proposes to pilot the use of certification criteria in a range of venues this month events which would have been closed to the public until much later this year will now be able to admit spectators who've been vaccinated or tested now later in the article Michael Gove does say he opposes it being used for supermarkets chemists and GP surgeries he doesn't make any mention of those more gray areas such as pubs although Boris Johnson has sort of suggested in the meantime that they won't be introduced into pubs anytime soon but you can quite clearly have function creep so you introduce them for things like football stadiums and then you end up having pub landlords saying actually we want them as well and then you have some of the same exclusionary outcomes that Ash was talking about earlier the other issue is how this would work so what new technologies will be set up will this imply a level of surveillance that we haven't already been used to now for this we can start to look to other countries where they are slightly ahead of us on this question we're not alone in having a conversation about vaccine passports so this is a graphic from the telegraph again so israel has already set up quite a developed past system so they give inoculated citizens a green pass so they can use gyms and hotels china has built a vaccine passport system into we chat which is its most popular social network Denmark has developed a corona pass system granting access to hairdressers restaurants and cinemas for immunized citizens France is considering a health pass allowing vaccinated people to resume leisure activities and Bahrain has introduced the be aware app that can be used to provide that subject to prove that subjects have received two doses of a jab now I've looked into the Israel system that's all linked up to an existing mandatory ID card so obviously that means that they haven't had to set up a technology that would worry us in this country because we don't have mandatory ID cards most people don't want mandatory ID cards in Israel it was very easy to roll out this system because you linked someone's identity which is already obvious on this card centrally controlled and then you match it to the vaccination status the little video I was watching there was you know there were older people super happy that they could go to the gym just showing their card you know people obviously have civil liberties concerns but for most people they're just like this is super super convenient that's not to say that should be an overwhelming argument Denmark they haven't quite rolled theirs out yet but they do seem fairly advanced in it and I think it looks actually quite likely that their technology will be rolled out across much of Europe it's called the corona pass app and we can take a look here at what it's gonna what it's gonna look like you'll have on your phone a picture of yourself it tells your vaccination status or again whether you've had a test in the last 24 hours and then you've got a barcode that whoever's I suppose running the door or you know checking tickets at your venue can scan to make sure that it's not a fake obviously that implies that there will be everyone's identity and their vaccination status stored on some kind of central database obviously there'll be disputes about who who can and who cannot access that database that will determine how secure and private the system is on the politics of it I thought this was quite interesting in Denmark this is from the local which is quite a good website for looking at especially the politics of of northern Europe so they write the plan was announced after an agreement was reached between the minority government and a broad section of parliament the agreement includes a sundown clause on the corona passports that means they can no longer be required apart from in relation to travel and tourism when everyone in Denmark has been offered a vaccine which is likely to be by august this year according to the current vaccination calendar so I mean many people I mean I would be inclined to find the sunset clause fairly reassuring is it reassuring enough will the government think if we introduce it here are we have this technology now let's find an excuse not to get rid of it already we've invested the money let's keep it and repurpose it for some longer term surveillance system to check out your health I'm still kind of unclear what the motive is there for them to sort of carry it on beyond the pandemic I don't know ash what do you think about this because a big issue here and it's very speculative people are saying look I wouldn't mind if this was only in place until the pandemic was over but I don't trust them to get rid of it once once we're through this once they're actually not needed anymore well boy oh boy do I have a hot take for you on this one because there are so many examples we have these technologies of governance or monitoring which are supposed to be for some kind of exceptional circumstance usually it's not something like a public health emergency but because it's monitoring a section of the population who've been deemed exceptional in some way because they're they're criminals or they're undocumented migrants or you know they're suspected of being you know benefits cheats and then you do see mission creep in terms of these ways of monitoring so for instance you had various forms of monitoring which were only supposed to be for convicted criminals and then you saw a form of mission creep as they became applied to people with first ASBOs and then PSPOs so you don't have to be you know convicted of a criminal offence as such to be subject to these various forms of control and monitoring similarly ways of monitoring and surveilling those who were suspected of being undocumented migrants that then had mission creep on to say welfare recipients so it's not just the conservative government many of these things I'm talking about had their origins in the glory days of tiny Blair but you do have a tendency where governments set up exceptional forms of monitoring exceptional technologies of governance and then you find them being applied elsewhere and we have seen I think lots of kinds of norms being eroded over the last year and not all of them are to do simply with civil liberty some of them are also about monitoring and democratic accountability so for instance the lack of oversight that we've seen when it's come to you know doling out contracts for public money I don't think that that accountability is magically going to come back once the pandemic is over when you think about some of the you know quite extraordinary and politicized uses of police power that we've seen in clamping down on protest in recent months I don't think that that's something that's going to wait going to go away particularly when you've got a home secretary like pretty Patel at the helm who wants to politicize the role of the police and so while it might not be that this exact database then just rolls over into a new use or this exact technology just you know gets reapplied again I think that there are legitimate fears non-cranky fears that aspects of it will be sort of taken rehashed and repackaged where they might be applied it's hard to tell but these things often are I don't think very many people thought that you know the kind of technologies and monitoring for undocumented migrants would suddenly be applied to in similar systems for welfare recipients but there we go that's what happened I mean at the same time that argument was made about loads of policies which ended up being essential so the lockdown for example there were lots of lockdown skeptics who say once the government have put us into lockdown we're going to be stuck in lockdown forever and it was like well what's the incentive for us to keep them to keep us in lockdown forever and obviously for public health reasons we had to do it anyway it's weighing up the pros and the cons but sorry it's weighing up the pros and the cons and also some stuff is stupid and some stuff isn't I mean what would a government purpose be in having a lockdown which never ended so you had the collapse of the economic system as we know it which keeps you know many members of the cabinet rich well there's not really an obvious reason why the government would want to oversee that whereas you can see reasons why this could be a useful technology in different contexts and that's the thing that you've got to assess so I'm not saying that you know based on the issue of vaccine passports alone it means you've got to do coalition building with Lawrence Fox but do you think that you've got to take these issues of civil liberties seriously not be complacent about them and also don't leave it up to the kind of libertarian cranky right to make the case for freedom as its own good you know not necessarily a kind of contingent benefit which you know you could lose if it means that you get to have in the fake up final yeah right let's go to some comments Megan Forrest tweets on the hashtag Tiskey Sour ash Sarkar echoing my thoughts exactly on part on vaccine passports although much more eloquently than I could and Raji Adi with a 499 super chat was just thinking what a good idea vaccine passports are ash has changed my mind so lots of love coming in for you there Ash keep sending us your comments you can tweet on the hashtag Tiskey Sour let's move on to whether this will happen because it's it's not clear to me and it also actually raises some interesting political questions now according to the telegraph Michael Gove has promised Tory MPs there will be a vote on any proposal for vaccine passports so they won't just introduce it via executive powers Boris Johnson was actually reluctant to confirm that today in the press conference but let's for the purposes of argument assume that Michael Gove wasn't lying would they manage to get that through the comments it's not clear because there is also a fairly already sorry a fairly broad coalition in opposition that includes 70 MPs who've already written an open letter opposing the use of vaccine passports within that 70 MPs is 41 conservatives and two past leaders of both major parties so Jeremy Corbyn and Ian Duncan Smith to actually defeat the government you need all opposition parties to vote against the bill plus 60 Tory rebels this of course means that Stammer will play a key role if he whips his MPs against vaccine passports then there's a significant possibility that the Libertarian Tory backbenchers will mean that that Boris Johnson is defeated and we've had some indication that Keir Starmer was considering voting against vaccine passports he did an interview with the telegraph recently and this was just last week in fact which was headlined Keir Starmer thinks that vaccine passports would be un-British so he was pitching himself there against this this potential policy proposal why I think it's probably unlikely that Keir Starmer will whip against this is because it turns out that whilst he said it was un-British the British public kind of disagree so there is quite widespread support across age groups for vaccine passports once the rollout is complete now I'm going to read actually you the whole question here because whether or not people support vaccine passports depends quite a lot on the details which are within the question so you've asked some people have suggested introducing a system of vaccine passports this system would involve giving everyone a vaccine passport once they have received their COVID-19 vaccines and allowing services and venues to reopen so long as they only serve those who have already been vaccinated i.e those who can show their vaccine passport in principle would you support or oppose introducing such a system now phrased like that when you look at the youngest demographic only 45% would support that being rolled out while the vaccine rollout is still ongoing but that goes up to 60% once everyone has been offered a vaccine then once you get to the the over 65s 75% want a vaccine passport now basically an 85% would want one when the rollout is complete the reason the specific question there is is relevant because it could be the case that if you specified to 18 to 24 year olds that you wouldn't just get this vaccine passport if you'd had a vaccine but you could also get a lateral flow test then maybe that would increase the support for it's difficult to know another very interesting part of this poll was where people would support introducing a vaccine passport so 72% of the public think that you should need a vaccine passport to get into a care home 56% think you should need one to get into a gym there's 10% who don't know there 56% for pubs 55% for cinemas 53% for restaurants so there's normally there's a plurality in in terms of most of these places where people think you should need a vaccine passport although once you get to coffee shops hospitals shopping centers that's when people say no you should not need a vaccine passport so not actually that difficult different from from the government position at this point in time there is one thing that the public do agree on which is probably not what the government are planning though britains tend to be opposed to private companies being allowed to develop their own vaccine passport systems so the big majority of people who say if we're going to have a vaccine system vaccine passport system sorry it should be done by the state now the reason i think even though there is some opposition to this it's going to be very difficult for kia starma to stand up and oppose it is because one it seems fairly possible popular sorry the downsides to it are all fairly abstract and if kia starma stands up and says i'm going to vote this down with your libertarian backbenchers or as johnson can basically stand up at pmqs and said look kia starma you backed lockdown with me you know we recognized that when a pandemic comes you have to limit civil liberties we all know how difficult that was you backed that now we have a possibility which is relatively cost free for people that we can reopen the f a cup final and for some very abstract concerns that i don't seem to understand you want to deny people that opportunity and kia starma will say well i don't i don't trust um that you won't continue having these these vaccine passports beyond the pandemic and borrow strength will say well look i've already ruled that out why are you so committed to stopping people going to the f a cup final ash i want your predictions now what are your predictions on whether this will go through do you agree with me that kia starma is probably um gonna say look i don't want to be the guy that stands between the british public and going to night clubs concerts f a cup finals when the downsides are these sort of speculative things that may or may not happen in the future i mean look we know that kia starma generally is led by the nose when it comes to focus groups and polling and in terms of the voters that he's looking to win over vaccine passports are unequivocally popular with that group so i think that he sort of pins his colours to the mast you know quite early on when he was suggesting that they're un british it's it remains to be seen whether that will result in actually voting down or abstaining so he can preserve his blushes um but i think you're right i think the the politics of it make it tricky for him to take a principled stance based on civil liberties um i think that he's he might have sort of uh he might have sort of underestimated the the public appetite for increasingly authoritarian measures when it comes to uh managing the virus or wanting to go to football matches and night clubs or i i don't think this is just a pathological desire for authoritarian measures no i think you've got you think you've got to look at it within within a context of wider measures which have also enjoyed broad public support so when you're looking at things like you know the ten thousand pound fines and you know all sorts of silly news stories around you know jail terms for people that don't obey um you know lockdown or don't sound vice delay when they know they've got the virus people are like yeah that sounds great so i think that of course people want to do the positive stuff right and there's a kind of broad mood of like we would really really like this to be over we would really like to you know socialize and go to the football and do all sorts of fun stuff but there is also i think a sense of you know i want everyone to be abiding by the strictest possible rules even if i myself don't really want to abide by them and i do think that's something that you see a lot in terms of polling um about you know which particular measure with the public support and it's something that you've got a bear in mind is that the british public really like authoritarian measures as long as other people have to abide by them and you the individual the protagonist of reality doesn't really have to now the other big announcement from today's press briefing was on lateral flow tests so from this friday two tests per week will be offered to everyone regardless of age or occupation they will be available by post to pick up from pharmacies or from workplaces and local authority centers now at today's press briefing boris johnson and patrick valance is the chief scientific advisor explained the reasoning for the ramping up of lateral flow tests i i think that lateral flow testing will be of great advantage to us all as we as we go forward i mean i do lateral flow test before i go out on a on a visit to test whether or not i might conceive it would be infectious i think it's a sensible thing to do the nhs is now offering as i say these free tests and i think people should should use them no i mean lateral flow tests are effective at picking up people infectious they're not hundred percent effective so a negative doesn't mean you absolutely haven't got it but a positive that is useful to identify those people who then need to isolate and you're right that testing alone isn't what matters it matters if you're positive and it's a true positive you isolate and lateral flow tests are definitely part of a way of trying to pick up more people who otherwise wouldn't be picked up so as usual there you heard boris johnson sounding very very enthusiastic and you heard patrick valance being a bit more reserved you know they're not they're not completely reliable but they're one part of a much broader agenda which will probably on balance do a good thing will it on balance do a good thing though i'm joined to discuss that question by john deeks professor of biostatistics at birmingham university john leads their test evaluation research group um thank you so much for joining us this evening what do you make of this plan uh good evening um well it's something which we have promised back last september with the moonshot proposals that would all be getting these lateral flow tests um at that time when you listened to the scientist to to john bell he was talking about these tests picking up nine out of ten people um and the reality is that the test we've got the interval test is is nowhere near that good so um we have to look at the data quite carefully to understand how well these tests work because what we've learned in the in the last few months is that they're not really very good at picking up people who are asymptomatic the people without symptoms they work pretty well in people who have symptoms and all of the original data the government was telling us about was from studies where people had symptoms so the only data we have actually for how well these tests work in people without symptoms is from liverpool from the mass pilot and there the data showed that actually they found 70 people in their study with covid and the test found 28 of them so it was pretty poor and there's a lot of discussion as patrick valence mentioned about these are good at picking up people who are infectious well that's actually a pretty hard thing to nail down we can't really tell whether somebody's infectious or not um what they're actually talking about are they actually are they good at picking up the people with high viral loads now a bad test picks up the easy cases and they're the ones who have high viral loads and in liverpool we found that they actually managed to get two thirds of those in the highest group of high viral loads so it missed a third still so we're looking at these tests thinking oh dear they're not going to pick up everybody they'll pick up some and that's that's a good thing providing they don't actually mislead people in the in the way of picking up just those few which they actually succeed with and and that's a concern that we've been discussing is there a way you think to sort of roll them out because i suppose the argument for them is you say look if people are doing activities that they do anyway then finding some people who are positive is better than finding no people who are positive so if people are already going to go to the football match then if you find two thirds of the people who have covid that's better than finding none of them on average um you will help reduce the are do you think there is a way they could roll this out where we only got really the the plus sides of this or do you think it's inevitable that this is going to give people a false sense of security and end up potentially actually increasing the spread of the virus i that's the worry is that actually when you get a negative test we're left thinking oh i've got a negative test i'm i'm safe i'm free i haven't got uh the virus boris johnson just said it on on that clip you showed us that he's not infectious that's why he does the test and that's using them as a as a green light test um and that's what we're not meant to do we're meant to use them as red light tests which say stop go go back home isolate uh audio self a pcr test um so the problem is that because they miss half the cases roughly um it means that when you get a negative test your chances of having the infection are half of what it was before you had the test done and and that's not enough to be safe it's not enough to say okay i can go and hug my granny uh it's not enough to say i can go to a football match and stand uh two feet from the person next to me or even closer all of those things we're going to make mistakes with uh by doing this now there are tests which are better than the one we've got i think one of the issues we've got is actually the evidence for the in of a test has all come out of department of health studies um there is no independent evaluation of this test from any other country um and people at the world health organization have been doing a whole set of great studies through an organization called the foundation for innovative diagnostics of the other lateral float tests and some of them are looking really bad and some of them are looking really good so if we're a little bit wiser and chose a better test we'd actually move forward a bit quicker and in time these tests will get get really good i i'm pretty confident that in the future we'll be using these tests but the ones we've got now are the first ones off the block and um we're being a little bit misled as to how good they are by by what the government keeps telling us i want to bring up a tweet from susan mickey today so she's on the sage subcommittee advising uh sage on behavior or science she's been on the show before um she tweeted until we get adequate financial and practical support for people to isolate when symptomatic or testing positive there is little point ramping up testing just because government has brought millions of lateral flow test doesn't mean they need to be used if ineffective now we've talked a lot on this show about how you know if you're going to roll out testing you also want to roll out support for people to self isolate it's value for money and it's a sort of obvious no brainer they probably don't want to do it or it seems they don't want to do it for ideological reasons um what i want to focus on with you though john is is this question do you think they are just rolling these out because they've bought them you know it has seemed for a while that it was this was the pet project of dominant comings who wanted to roll out this moonshot campaign they struck this deal with inova and or inova or however you pronounce it and ever since then they've just been desperate to find a use for all of these kits yeah i mean i'm a scientist so i'm struggling to actually understand the psychology of how how how government ministers make decisions at this point i'm afraid um i mean there are the uses they could put these two i mean they followed a scientific program to come up with some studies which give them um a grounding for doing this but they're all usually based on mathematical models which have you know they start with a load of assumptions and and the answer that you get depends on what assumptions you put in at the beginning um and there's so little data as i've already told you as to how well these tests work you know we're we're just making assumptions um but there is another model which they could use these tests for which will be really good and that's actually to use them in test and trace centers because these tests work better in people who've got symptoms and one of our biggest faults with test and trace is it takes you days to get the results so if you went to a test and trace center you had one of these tests done you get the results whilst you wait there and if you had the infection control team there and you had the forms to fill in for financial support there and advisers to help you you could start contact tracing within 30 minutes which is three days earlier than we do now and that really is going to be the way in which we we actually control this virus you know we'll be able to go to football matches when we've got vaccination sure but when there's actually um not such great leakage of virus going on we're spending all this money trying to find the needles in the haystack with this let's test everybody twice a week when we've got this test and trace program which everybody knows is is not working and there hasn't been a single new idea put forward as to how to improve it in well since last year so i mean that's really i think where you know we need to be knocking heads together and saying let's do something new with these tests give results pretty quick we'd still back them up with a PCR that's easy to do and we could actually move forwards and get the contact tracing and get the support working at a local level it's not the model we've paid for with with our our consultancy companies running this which may be the problem but it's one which we should look at switching to and and finally having looked a lot at these tests how worried should we be about false positives i think that the government have said it's one in one thousand but if we're testing obviously you know 25 million people a week that becomes 25 thousand false positives a week are we going to start seeing a huge surge in in in in positive cases which are actually just because we're testing too many people well yeah i mean it's whether it's one in one in a thousand or even less than that is you know that that's what's being debated that they're actually really good at not giving false positives but you still get them as you say the more people you test the more you'll see um and i think we've had this issue in the last few weeks of the introduction testing in secondary schools where the people who are tested positive weren't being backed up by having a PCR and so you know you couldn't tell the difference between a false positive and a true positive so there are whole clusters of families and bubbles and you know it was creating mayhem for many schools as soon as they went back and so the false positive problem becomes more of an issue when the disease becomes really rare because it means when you get a positive result you get to a point where it's more likely to be wrong than right um we all have to put up with a bit of it uh you know we're never going to eradicate it completely so um you know in the in in the times we're at right now where the disease rates actually are quite low it's probably a bit more of an issue for the person who gets the result the government always takes the strategy of saying they're very rare it doesn't matter but actually when you've got a positive result you're the person who needs to know if I lock myself down and I take my family out of school and everything else and create all this mayhem from my contacts um is that is that all a lie and that really is important and it's very easy to sort out with with taking a PCR test afterwards so they are there the test actually you know is very good at not giving them very often and we have a strategy for sorting them out and the government had stopped doing that strategy back at the end of January last week they announced they're going to start it again which is a battle which you know we were campaigning for in the Royal Statistical Society and other places for weeks it was too late for some of the people who started school but at least it's fixed now well done for getting that win um John Deeks thank you so much for for joining us this evening no no worries pleasure thank you um you're watching Navarra Media Tiske Sauer of course um as you know um this show is only possible because if you're kind support if you are enjoying what you're watching then please consider becoming a supporter and to do that go to navarramedia.com forward slash support donate the equivalent of one hour's wage a month if you already do that thank you so so much we really do appreciate it now since the first vigil in memory of Sarah Everard the police have come under widespread criticism for their heavy-handed treatment of protesters in particular women this weekend we learned of two more really quite shocking incidents which should shame the four two incidents which took place in Bristol both were police tracking down participants from a protest two weeks ago so that protest that ended up with a fair amount of violence on the street although as you'll find out the two people here were not involved so the first incident involved 21 year old Kate McGoran she had left the protest before violence broke out but last week was handcuffed in her bedroom after police had tricked their way into her shared student house pretending to be postman so she told the observer it was frightening having all these policemen in my room after what happened to Sarah Everard and seeing footage of the vigil in Clapham I was only wearing a t-shirt underwear and a short dressing gown I felt really vulnerable I started having a panic attack I was so scared I was shrieking and asking to call my mum but they said no and told my flatmate to go to her room now she told the observer that the officers kept her in handcuffs even after they realized she didn't match the picture of the person they were looking for and then watched her as she struggled to put her joggers on so again more more comments from the person in question I couldn't put them on because of the cuffs I was crying I was really it was really humiliating they were making jokes when they had caused me to have a panic attack really really awful to hear now the second incident involved a 16 year old the family of Grace Hart who is 16 claimed she answered the door twice to a mail officer pretending to be to be a postal worker with a package for her flatmate her father Paul Hart said she became suspicious so she started to close the door the officer he claimed then barged in along with a group of at least three other plainclothes mail officers shouting police and pointing tasers at her they pushed her up against the wall they had tasers out she had read dots on her body he said three of those could have killed her because of the voltage it's an excessive use of force it's absolutely horrendous the officers claimed Hart searched the entire house including his daughter's room even though the person they were looking for wasn't there and Grace didn't attend any of the protests Grace said she felt violated by the raid and added I'm now really nervous to open the door when I don't know who is behind it um two just incidents that just sound you know appallingly disturbing and again just incidents where you know the police have massively overstepped the mark they're using like quite significant anti-terror tactics as if you know when they barge into the house they're expecting someone's going to attack them or shoot them when they're knocking on the door of a student flat everyone who lived in that house was a woman who'd attended you know a protest where some things got thrown it wasn't any of them but they weren't serious criminals ash I want to bring you in on this particular story I mean what did you make of those accounts I mean what the screams of is a gang who feel that their turf have been infringed on and so what they want to do is reassert their authority in the most spectacular and brutal and heavy-handed ways possible that's what it looks like quite obviously these police are not using their powers in a proportionate way you're using these counter-terror tactics for a student house even if you did suspect that you know these two young women were responsible for I don't know throwing an egg or shoving or jostling um pointing tasers is not a proportionate response which is commensurate with the risk you seriously think they pose it also transpires that the intelligence that they were operating on was either non-existent or you know lacks credibility and three you've also got this horrible gendered element where there seems to be a real perverse pleasure being taken in intimidating women and in the case of the first story that you talked about of a woman being in her bedroom handcuffed in her underwear and a t-shirt and a short robe you know there's a feeling of of gendered vulnerability there and it's horrible it's horrible absolutely no police officer should be okay with seeing somebody who clearly doesn't pose a risk in that amount of distress and you know being that vulnerable and it's completely outrageous that she was kept in handcuffs even after they'd worked out that she didn't match the description of the photo but it's unsurprising it's the kind of horrible heavy-handed tactic which you do see on a much more regular basis outside of the context of public order policing um you know focused on you know disproportionately working-class communities and working-class communities of colour or never forget being at Notting Hill Carnival and seeing a teenager you know this kid is quite obviously a teenager being stopped in search with his hands cuffed behind his back shoved up against a wall and the entire search uh which was being carried out in suspicion of possession of drugs was carried out with with this teenager in handcuffs that's not to mitigate the actual risk it's about stamping down the authority and I think that again this is something which is not an emergency response to an exceptional situation it's something which uh you know in this case that even in Somerset police force I feel able to act upon because I've got the political cover to do so for as long as we've got this government and a opposition which quite frankly is not taking civil liberties or that seriously and I think that you will see more police forces abuse their power in this way so that was Avon and Somerset police we're not going to leave out the Metropolitan Police so they've also um I mean made a bit of a show of themselves this weekend so there were fairly big protests in London this weekend they were against the policing bill and the political statistics when it comes to prosecutions for violence against women so like much of these protests a sort of combination of two concerns which is gender-based violence and a crackdown on protest now we can look at some scenes of this as a a decent sized crowd you can see here that was in Parliament Square in terms of the the behaviour of the police and how they interacted with the crowd we can have a look now at scenes of police charging um I mean a crowd of people and grabbing people they I mean it looks to me like they're clearly trying to clear the street or at least clear the the entrance to that building but they're doing it by basically just running into a crowd of people grabbing people and throwing them across um not doesn't seem like the most sensitive way to to police any kind of protest um I also can't go without showing you what has now become the traditional way that all protests end in London um it's now I see you know something the police will never not do at a central London protest we can see them guarding the statue of Winston Churchill there so as far as I understand there was no intelligence to suggest that someone was going to pull down the Winston Churchill statue or cause serious harm to it I think they just like the photo opportunity because it gets certain people annoyed um the big news from that demonstration in London was the police arrested 107 people including two legal observers now that's controversial as legal observers aren't there to take part in the protest but just to record what's going on I mean it's it's not a legal status you don't you know it's not in law that police aren't supposed to arrest legal observers because it's not on an official position it's basically a self a self-prescribed position but um it's still you know it's not the done thing there's no reason why they should do that it's also I mean a bit much given Cressida Dick justified Kate Middleton going to the Sarah Everard vigil despite COVID regulations because Cressida Dick said she was working now Kate Middleton working is just she happens to be a princess you know legal observers that's actual work you've gone to a protest you've got your notebook you're taking notes about how the protesters and the police are interacting you are actually doing a job there you're doing something socially useful but they are the people who get arrested um Ash I want your comments I suppose on these arrests on the policing of the protest but also I mean how much how much legs do you think this movement has got that that was quite a lot of quite a lot of people in parliament square they were seeing protests every every weekend and it doesn't seem like they're they're going to dissipate anytime soon well I think the real test for this movement is to what extent can they build outwards and there are successes in it you see these protests which were initially concentrated mostly around Bristol spreading to London's or protest taking part in Leeds and Manchester as well I think it's because it does speak to a very intense suspicion people feel particularly young people particularly young people who identify as progressive of this government with regards to civil liberties and who can blame them you've got a home secretary who has said uh you know I don't like protests or I don't believe in protests when on LBC with Nick Ferrari um and you've got police forces when given the latitude to do so have behaved in politicized and disproportionate and violent ways in order to stamp their authority against those who are deemed to be unruly so I think for as long as you've got that that caliber of political opponent both within the police force itself um and within the government then yeah you will see this movement build what victory would look like what it would mean to achieve a win I think is the the tricky bit so how are you going to work that out because this bill obviously contains so many measures um not just in terms of you know the criminalization of peaceful protest but also its impact on the GRT community which I understand you talked about in some detail um last week on Tiskey Sour um that even if it passed with some amendments to protect civil liberties it would still be a bad and unjust and in places a discriminatory bill so working out what what victory would look like what would the transitional demands be or do you not let up until you achieve the whole thing and what are the mechanisms for achieving the whole thing do you work with libertarian Tories do you try and get the labor party on board um or do you simply become you know a word which a lot of anarcho's like to use is ungovernable um all of these things have benefits and drawbacks the benefits of electoral coalition building is that you don't have to try and um out to muscle the institutions of state drawbacks so that what's likely is that you get some amendments in but the core of the bill um you know particularly its impact on marginalized communities that remains the same uh or you try and do the thing of okay we'll we'll have a mass campaign of non-compliance ranging from uh you know non-violent acts of civil disobedience all the way through to confrontations with the police well certainly that's becoming ungovernable and what that can do is demonstrate that this bill is unenforceable but of course that comes with drawbacks as well um when you have a strategy of of confrontation with the police in that way what can often lead to as a kind of insular and inward-looking movement culture something which isn't so interested in coalition building and you've got the really obvious drawbacks of people being sucked into uh the criminal justice system which is itself off-putting and also a really distressing thing to go through so yeah you've got all sorts of drawbacks all sorts of I think strategic concerns that you need to be taken into account and I'm interested to see where it goes I think that sometimes there's a there's a tendency on parts of the left of you these discussions as being optics you know oh this is all just optics no it's called discipline strategy and a theory of change you've really got to engage seriously with all of these things Ash I've got a important question for you before we go on to our last story so prepare yourself it's from Joshua Youngerman with five dollars and he asks will Ash be getting a vaccine passport just to see Arsenal beat Tottenham again next year get fucked wait wait no no no no I I want to take this up a view Michael because you're the host of Tiskey sour so the buck stops with you okay do you not have an anti-bullying mod spicy when it comes to when it comes to the comments because this is deeply hurtful to me and very insensitive very insensitive considering the recent trauma of Spurs's performance and so now he uses the questions I just read them out and you jump this on my plate I feel I feel the audacity, the gall, the cheek and the gumption would you would you get a vaccine passport if you you knew that Tottenham were going to win a vaccine passport and a new manager yeah all right final story Keir Starmer has been Labour leader for 12 months now many have been assessing his first year in charge we did so on Friday's show and it was happening all weekend now on that topic this is former Labour Home Secretary and Blair Wright Alan Johnson speaking to Tom Swarbrick on LBC I think you have to be in the Labour Party to really appreciate where we were in December 2019 compared to where we are now I mean I thought we were finished you know when you see us losing Redcar Bishop Auckland Sedgefield Grimsby Skuntle Bolsova yeah it really looked as if it might all be over for us not because of that election result but because this cult of the far left had virtually taken over the party at all levels and it looked as if the only successor to Corbyn would be a Corbynista and then we'd get more of the same but for Keir Starmer to first of all be brave enough to put himself forward for what is a awful job even more terrible in circumstances Labour Party was in and then turn that around you know in June we're talking about where we are now but in June he reached the highest rating for an opposition leader any opposition leader since records began since they started to record that in the early 70s and now it's not too bad by the way there's been a boost for the government with the with the vaccine of course you think 10 points off is not too bad but I feel oh 26 points off when Keir Starmer was elected and you know this you can sum up where the Tories are now in one word which is vaccine so no he's had a tremendous first year more than anyone could expect and I think I caught a bit of Jack Straw earlier on as Jack Straw was saying we've had a long period of leaders who haven't been popular with the public and have been less popular than their Tory counterpart going right back to Gordon now a few things to mention there first of all he says you know things are really bad when Labour loses red car now Labour lost red car in 2010 when Alan Johnson was was the home secretary so a bit of an odd example to say this is this is the really important one if you lose that you you know that this was the pits obviously the 2019 election wasn't particularly good no one's going to pretend it was anyway a few other things he says he's he says the Tory lead is all down to the vaccine now this is the the story that the Starmer stands like to say he's doing brilliantly but how could anyone possibly be popular when Boris Johnson is rolling out one of the most successful vaccination programs in the world on one level that's a reasonable argument on another it doesn't really fit with the the facts because as we talked about on on Friday if you look at when Starmer's satisfaction really tanked it was way before the vaccine was rolled out so you can see here Starmer as Alan Johnson says there people were very satisfied with him at the beginning of his his leadership I think partly because he looked like a Prime Minister he's knighted he wasn't Jeremy Corbyn and the media were very nice to him but once they sort of started to see the decisions he was making that's when they changed their mind so you can see there the biggest drop is between October and December last year that's when he goes from 15% net positivity to 5% net positivity and the big drop there is among Labour voters so he goes from 50% people saying he's doing a good job net to 31% saying that and what happens then it's not that the vaccine was rolled out it's that he kicked Jeremy Corbyn out of the Labour Party he's basically said a big FU to a huge section of Labour's base and guess who else is saying a huge FU to huge sections of Labour's base Alan Johnson on LBC if you want to be cheerleading for the Labour leader which is fine you know he wants the Labour government that's good he's on LBC telling people Keir Starmer's a good guy then you have to take seriously the fact that one of the big things which is threatening Keir Starmer's ability to become Prime Minister is the fact that he's pissed off one in five Labour voters one in five Labour voters thinks he's taking the party in the wrong direction basically because he's been incredibly insulting to anyone who supported the previous leader and now that is just being reinforced by Alan Johnson calling everyone a cult right so it seems like these people in a way have a death wish for the party they would prefer to insult the left and kick out the left than have any chance of entering government by forming a broad coalition which includes yes both voters in the red wall who voted Brexit by the way Alan Johnson ran the Labour Remain campaign one of the worst campaigns we've seen in the last 20 years right he's one of the reasons we're in this mess but you also have to have left wing Labour voters we saw in 2017 there's actually quite a lot of them Ash what do you make of people like Alan Johnson constantly coming out to basically say a big FU to the Labour left what do they think they're achieving here well that's the things that they actually don't want Keir Starmer to succeed at the helm of a kind of soft left rightish coalition that's not what they want what they want is for Starmer to not do so well in the local elections to panic for there to be some back bench jitters about losing confidence in the leader and then what that creates the space for as a you know Labour right coup within the shadow cabinet so they're already making those noises of dissatisfaction about Annalisa Dodds there have been talks about a lack of a lack of of joined up thinking between himself and Angela Rayner Angela Rayner who was drafted in kind of to talk to the parties left and I think that there are those like Alan Johnson who would look at it as a chance for a turn of some of those Labour right figures in particular you know the likes of Evette Cooper and what that shows us it's two things is that one these people aren't serious about winning elections and winning over the public they're simply not what they want to do is reassert control over the party and they don't care if it's in opposition for you know 20 more years and the second thing is that they also are completely out of ideas now I don't want to define my politics by Jeremy Corbyn I didn't even want to do that when he was leader but it's certainly not a healthy political culture now that he's not leader and you know to the left's credit well I think there are still you know huge amounts of people who are quite rightfully very wounded by everything that's happened in the last few years is that you do have those aspects of the left who are looking forward and thinking about what the really important policies you need to get people moving on what the kind of movements that we need to draw together to make those things happen whether that's around a green new deal or you know a nurses pay rise combined with rolling back on privatisation in the NHS you do have people who are out there doing that thinking and johnson I don't know what he would say if you go okay what's your solution to you know the most pressing political social and economic crises which face our country today he would probably just say I don't know vet cooper I don't know kick Jeremy Corbyn in the head one more time these are people who are completely defined by animated their own petty squabbles within a party that nobody you know particularly cares for anymore you know the country at large being being you know core component of that and one of the reasons why people don't really care for it anymore is that people just see it as a vehicle for infighting this is a mistake that the left makes is that sometimes it gets so caught up in its own experience of the infighting which is of course really awful that it goes oh this is what people will be really interested in is how we've been reduced and betrayed and vilified by the right now actually people don't care about that but it's also a mistake that the Labour right make which is the go aha well we heard that you don't like Jeremy Corbyn and guess what we still don't like him either and we hate everybody that ever liked him the public don't care about that they don't care about your petty internal beefs and so the more that you have this kind of story out then just getting airtime I think the more turned off people feel from politics what we've learned is that there's a Conservative Party in power which is able to capitalise on that sense of apathy cynicism and lack of faith in politics's ability to do anything good for you or the community that you come from the Conservatives are actually best placed to capitalise of that feeling so no I don't think it's going to be good for Labour but the point of Alan Johnson doing these media rounds isn't for it to be good for Labour it's for it to be good for the Labour right in terms of the progression of their own careers within the party that's it that's why it was so striking that he said and I wrote this down in my hand to make a note of it you know it's not because of the election results because I think even Alan Johnson recognises that in all those places Red Car and Bolsova that the Labour vote share was in decline and had been since 2001 it's about the result of 2019 offering a lifeline to a dying and discredited set of politics because it allows them to define themselves against Corbyn rather than having to make a case to the country I'm going to say now you should support Navarro Media so we can get Ash a pad so she doesn't have to write the notes on her hand when we're showing videos live on Tiskey So also what I want you to do is hit the subscribe button and we go live every Monday Wednesday and Friday at 7 p.m and we put out videos every day we have a little bit more of that interview we're going to subject you to apologies in advance it's Alan Johnson The criticism would be that for you Blair right lot it's looking good because the hard left cultures you've described have been pushed back Jeremy Corbyn is no longer a Labour MP in Parliament he's an independent he has to sit as an independent now but there are huge percentages of the membership the Labour membership who are much more left-wing brought in by Jeremy Corbyn and who for instance 66% of them want the Labour Party to campaign to return into the European Union what does Stammer have to do to address that just ignore him No well I mean in a sense you're right I mean that me endorsing Keir Stammer as same as Jack endorsing him is kind of old Blair right's kind of looking for a repeat of history when I'm looking at I can only look at it from my point of view and the biggest poll 7,000 people in the opinion poll in December I've got to remember we're not even 18 months beyond that general election by the way when you know a huge boost for Conservatives that opinion poll in December went into the figures you know in the language that you and I will understand at many listeners one the C2DE votes which is the working class coming across to Labour and leave voters coming across to Labour and so I think in terms of all the big issues the big calls that Keir Stammer's had to make he's made them right not least of all on Europe remember there was a lot of internal disagreement that we should oppose the deal on Europe and Keir Stammer faced it down and he was absolutely right to do it because we can't go through those arguments over again all over again and for the 66% of Labour people who want us to go back into Europe that's the 66% of Labour supporters who voted to remain so they're not going to change their views but you know the politics of this isn't that they're going to vote for another party to get Labour back into Europe. You're never supposed to say that he said the quiet part out loud the truth is they're never going to vote for anyone else are they now I actually you know I agree with Keir Stammer and Alan Johnson's latest position on Europe even if it's evolved over the past few years I don't think Labour should be talking about going back into Europe I actually didn't think they should have kicked up a fuss about Boris Johnson's deal I think that's one of the things that Keir Stammer kind of has got right even if it is a bit of a U-turn from his position when he was in Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet I mean also an issue there was the question it's not the Corbynites in the party who want to return to the European Union that was not the contours of the battle over the past three years I want to go to you though Ash on that really important thing which I think is Alan Johnson there basically saying look I'm coming to this from a position whereby we only have to appeal to people in the red wall and people in the so-called red wall which were traditional Labour seats which went conservative at the 2019 general election everyone else no one else has anywhere to go so we can completely ignore them he's being quite explicit isn't he well yeah and he's also displaying the attitude which lost Labour the red wall and was responsible for their decline at least in part which is this idea if you've got this cohort of voters they've got nowhere else to go and somewhere else in the country there are swing voters and they're the ones who you have to appeal to now when Tony Blair was leader of the opposition that thinking was centred around London and the cities you know that there are swing constituencies here you know we've got an opportunity to turn urban blue constituencies red and so that's who we focus on when it comes to you know the north and the midlands and and formerly industrial areas while they've got nowhere else to go that wasn't true and I think whether whether a myth or whether in truth there was a narrative which emerged of a patrician distance and somewhat disdainful Labour leadership which didn't care very much and took for granted all of those voters and that's a narrative which the Conservative Party having rebranded itself through the lens of Brexit and indeed you know parties further to the right of the Conservative Party first Duke and then the Brexit Party were able to wield to their advantage so simply shifting the lens and deciding ah fuck my camera's just conked out I will try and get that working but in the meantime I'll keep talking um it's done that thing where it's overheated um by simply shifting the lens and deciding that what you're going to do is is is express your disdain and your disregard for another set of voters is just I think you know kicking that problem over to the other side of the football pitch it's not it's not actually dealing with it what I would say is that there's also I think a fundamental lack of curiosity about what is it that the Conservative Party do so well who are their voters and how are they appealed to because it's not simply through narrative about you know disdainful patrician Labour because you know the Conservative Party have actually served some voters within those you know formerly industrial heartlands very well there's homeowners and there's pensioners and there's people who live in relative privilege in deprived areas right and that's who the Conservative Party are relentlessly focused on and I think that there's a lack of honesty both in terms of the Labour left who want to homogenise these areas as just sort of you know bastions of you know authentic working class decency you know it's like they watch bar stuff once and they're like that's everybody who lives in the north and then there's also a fantastic movie but then there's I think you know there's a lack of willingness to explore the kind of other cohorts of voters which exist within the same place and who've been very candidly appealed to on a material basis by the Conservative Party both the left and I think the right struggle to deal with that and also those on the left who say well you know that's fine just focus on London London we'll see you through there's also lack of honesty there about having to have a you know values based container and a policy platform which can appeal to you know there's quite diverse coalition but Alan Johnson is not interested in having that conversation and very few people are because it would mean interrogating some of your core political assumptions about who the working class are where they are and how is it they live and you don't want to ask those questions because actually conjuring up you know a straw man of the working class and the most convenient shape to you is often a very good you know ventriloquist dummy for the thing that you always wanted to say anyway it's very rarely got anything to do with how people live or what they actually think Michael Deary with 10 pounds says I think this is sarcastic I feel so bad for Kier Stammer the government has just presided over 150,000 deaths chiefly because of their incompetence what is there for Stammer to attack them on it is I mean I know that suck but it is quite a good point actually because they're saying look how could Kier Stammer have possibly done any better during this year you know he's the government have been doing so well they haven't been doing terribly it's the same as the situation everyone's like any other leader would be 20 points ahead yeah that was because the reason they said that was because it was quite chaotic the way the the tour is by handling Brexit I mean letting 150,000 people die that's a lot worse than kind of cocking up the Brexit process right so so I do think you're letting Kier Stammer off quite lightly if you say oh no how could he have possibly expected to get ahead of the Conservatives the vaccine is out now yes obviously the vaccine was going to give a boost to the Conservatives but he started from level pegging even when you know we'd gone into a catastrophic late lockdown which was tragically leading to lots of deaths ask yes what can I chime in very quickly and I'm not supposed to do this because this is your show Michael but I'm going to plug my own because tomorrow evening on downstream I've got Samuel Earl coming on to discuss just why the Conservative Party are so good at what they do in terms of winning elections and maintaining that polling lead obviously exploring it with relation to coronavirus and is there or is there not a vaccine bounce how is it they've managed to evade accountability for that absolutely dreadful number of deaths but we'll be going into it in quite some depth so feelers are just interested tune in so long as it's Navara content you're always allowed to promote it on on the show sorry I interrupted the important bit though tune in tomorrow at 5 p.m on this here YouTube channel the one you're on right now fabulous that's a good reason to hit subscribe isn't it do make sure you hit that subscribe button ash it has been a pleasure speaking to you this evening I do hope that when the pub gardens open I'm still going to be lucky enough to spend my Monday evenings with you and thank you everyone for your super chats tonight and your comments on Twitter we'll be back on Wednesday at 7 p.m for now you've been watching Tiskey Sour on Navara Media good night