 All that people sometimes go through in middle-class society to find a name that nobody else India is very posh now. That's the new statesman and guardian a full of Indians So you started something no, I didn't Already India Hicks. Ah You're right. Yeah, bloody Hicks that bloody Hicks family We do it to the tune of one girl Who's now a mature woman, I would guess probably this whole conversation started and it was inspired by my name plate, huh? That remind you about yeah, the Miko Pallade I'll be Well, Ray's got the beard for it If anybody looked like It's not Ray McGovern. It's Ben fucking gun. Look. I Love treasure Island It's one of my favorite questions. Here we go. What was the name of the portrait who shinned up the main mast and pinned Jim whatever his name was to the mast with his nine Hawkins Yeah, Hawkins, what was the name of the pirate? Yeah, the pirate it went up. Yeah Are you saying you don't know? I don't know. I've forgotten Great to gloat. Roger's going to gloat. I'm gonna tell you you really you will remember as soon as I say Israel hands All right Click-click-click Will's turn And they pirate they dead on the floor while Jim Hawkins Sailed the hispaniola single-handed around the corner to the other bay All right fellows. We are we are at that time. Sorry. Oh, no, you're fine. I wish we could just go on like that This has just been renamed discussion on treasure. I Feel free to detour it there We're supposed to be talking about since I'm hosting this thing We'll just wing it, you know Okay, all right, I'm going to take us live here and What I'm gonna do is just do a quick one two-minute intro I'm gonna pass the reins off to Miko Miko's gonna take over and then I'll pop back in for the Q&A John you're trying to you're at one hour, right? Yeah Probably can run over Questions Okay, run over but not for us now No, no, no a couple of good questions we filter the questions do a couple of good ones 15 or 20 or something Okay, yeah, that'll be it. I will deliver probably like they're all watching this arguing about how long we can stay Yeah, all right, I'm gonna take us live Okay, we are alive I Am just gonna give it another 15 seconds or so so that folks can stream into the event and We do have a lot of people registered for this one Please remember that if you can't get in for some reason or if you didn't register ahead of time You can access this via Miko pellets YouTube channel You can just do a quick search on YouTube for Miko pellet find the official channel And of course we will make this recording available afterwards And Let's go ahead and get started. So hello everybody. Welcome to the trial of Julian Assange This is an online event hosted by author and activist Miko pellet My name is Jamil and I'll be your event admin today along with my friend Michael So if you need assistance during the course of the event, you can send us a private message or just address us in the chat room Both of us will have the word event admin next to our names if you want to ID us So this is the 10th online event in Miko pellets webinar series and it just so happens that this is Easily the highest number of registrants we have had to date Might have something to do with our panel But we think it's also likely related to the near mainstream media blackout in regards to this important topic So I don't want to take up too much time here. I just want to thank the audience for tuning in for this important discussion I also want to thank the excellent panel that we're fortunate enough to have with us today We have three prominent activists who have persistently advocated for Julian Assange's release and freedom Since he took refuge in the embassy of Ecuador in London in June 2012 And I'd like to introduce them to you all So we have Roger Waters, of course songwriter and musician Co-founder of Pink Floyd and human rights activist We have John Pilger journalist writer documentary filmmaker And of course, we have Ray McGovern X CIA presidential briefer writer and human rights activists And as always we have author and activist Miko Pellett who is best known for his work advocating for Palestinian justice and freedom And Miko is going to be today's host And I'd like just like to preliminarily preliminarily. Thank Roger for sporting a keffiye in the background of his video Um, so thank you to the panel for their time and participation. We're really looking forward to your insights and your analysis Uh, a little housekeeping before I hand things over to Miko We are live streaming this event to Miko Pellett's youtube page Like I said before so if you want to share this event with folks who didn't register ahead of time Send them over to youtube.com Slash c slash Miko Pellett official. We're gonna get that url in the chat room so you can copy and paste it And you'll be able to watch the live stream from there. We also make all these webinars available to rewatch Uh after the fact so just give me a couple days to get that up and I assure you it will be up and edited So after the discussion wraps up, we will move into an audience Q&A So hit that Q&A button in your zoom toolbar at the bottom of the screen to submit your questions at any point during the event And I think we are ready to start here. So I'm going to pass the reins over to Miko Pellett Thank you. Jamia. Thanks for your help. Uh, thank you Michael behind the scenes for your help And thank you gentlemen for for your you know giving us your precious time to talk about this. I know all three of you Uh feel very strongly about this issue. All of us also share very strong Uh feelings, um, and we all act on the issue of justice for Palestine. So we all have that in common as well Um, the issue of Julian Assange, you know, considering the impact that he's had Considering what he's going through personally as a result of that the price that he's paying Um, number one, I think it's it's you probably agree with me that it's criminal the way his story is being completely ignored by the mainstream media And even the alternative media there's not really a lot. Um Being said and a lot being reported about his case And it's it's it's come to the point where I talk to people who are actually knowledgeable about issues And they don't know who Julian is or maybe they've heard his name But they don't really know what he did or they confuse him with snowden and wait a minute Is he the guy from here? Is he the guy from there? and um, and uh, it's it's tragic it's criminal and um again considering the enormous impact that he's had And the enormous price that he's paying personally for what he did um, we owe him at least to uh to have uh to have a lively debate Public debate on on what is what he's done and what he's um, what he's suffering and why? Uh, which is why you know, we put together This fantastic panel So I'd like to cover a few you know as much as possible in the limited time that we have I think it's crucial to talk about his contributions as a journalist uh the campaign And the persecution that he's gone through for for for many years Um, why he was evicted from the embassy of ecuador why he is in the cell in a british in a british high security prison Um, we know that now we're waiting for the british court to decide whether or not he will be extradited So we need to discuss what happens if he is what happens if he isn't And what I find considered terribly troubling is also the fact that so few journalists are actually standing up for him So john, I thought we'd start with you Perhaps you can if you could give us an idea of the his contribution to journalism As a journalist, uh, what did he actually do? What did he do for us as a journalist? Uh, how important is it? um and uh, and what is it that he's done that Has brought him to the place where he's where he's being punished like this Well, he started uh being a real journalist And we've been lacking in real journalists for such a long time um the uh Today all the spaces that were in the misnamed Mainstream media have closed People like myself others who worked through the so-called mainstream for many years Uh, are not there anymore and one of the reasons is that Julian Assange and wiki leaks Exposed the whole media system as an extension of great power uh A few years ago. Yes, as I say there were spaces for some of us to To criticize that to report from places. We thought honestly uh julian has has given journalism the uh The kind of good name that it's denied itself For such a long time for one thing. He revolutionized journalism. He invented this Sorry, you're muted for a moment. Go ahead He he revolutionized journalism. He invented this fail-save method of of people being able people within systems being able to whistleblow And not reveal their identity uh Now most of us certainly in my case throughout my career Most of the best stories if you like scoops that I've had Have come from people within systems Julian and wiki leaks produce more scoops In a short space of time all of them authentic all of them Telling us something that we needed to know all of them giving us a glimpse Of how governments behave behind our backs How they start wars based on lies All the very things that journalists are meant to call them out on Julian and wiki leaks did this in a very short space of time So he did real journalism and when you ask because why um Journalists or you queried why journalists hadn't support him because he shames them I believe he shames journalists. He shames uh Those who are often overpaid under talented In uh in and who have who have these exalted platforms Particularly in western countries in this country britain in in the united states on great tome like newspapers like the new york times and the washington post uh He shamed them with real journalism How did you do this in other words? How did he how did he how was he able to expose all this information? Well, he he did as I say he he he invented the julians I suppose he's He's genius in a way is inventing something that so many media organizations have now adopted And that's basically a failsafe dropbox Where people within governments within systems Could could drop in something that needed to be told but they felt as conscientious objectives needed to be told about that organization uh That blew the whistle on them and as I said whistleblowers have been the uh the staple Of real journalism for a very long time, but they've been so few of them Because it's a very dangerous It's a very dangerous pursuit as of course we now know from julians Suffering from the suffering of chelsea manning And uh But but but so so he gave us If you take just one example the infamous collateral murder video that in a very short space of time uh Told us how america conducts its colonial wars it conducted in a homicidal way I reported vietnam For over 10 years and I can assure you there were plenty of collateral murders But we didn't we weren't in the cockpit with them. We weren't able to get hold of Of of that kind of evidence Other evidence was forthcoming of course famously with the mealy massacre and so on But that's how colonial wars of such are conducted and the way the united states treat so much of the world There it was If you like in a nutshell in this horrific episode With a crew of the apache Helicopter gloated at shooting down civilians in the street and bagged out including children uh that I mean that was That was vivid But there's so much else he uh he exposed that Uh, the the long running for instance, uh chalk what inquiry in this country into uh Blair's invasion with bush of iraq in 2003 How was rigged to appease american interests? uh He she exposed the chalk on report as being rigged. Yeah as being rigged Sure, the and and i mean we'd be here all night if i Yeah Went into how he did it but i mean in in ticking off. There are so many of these Uh, he exposed how the british army year after year Uh in helman province in afghanistan was a disaster And and enjoyed the united states In uh in in so many war crimes against the people of afghanistan That was exposed He exposed how hillary clinton a secretary of state ordered the theft of of of of of credit card details and id information from Everyone up to Angola merkel and people in the united states and so on and so forth And you mentioned hillary clinton. I want to throw this question at you um I think I know what you're gonna say, but there's a there's a theory out there that he was working for the russians That he was somehow collaborating for the russians, which is not a theory. Miko. It's just crap Frankly, sorry. I was right. That's what I thought is a good word Yeah, there's no evidence There's no theory. It never happened. He didn't work ray as an expert on this Uh, he never worked for the russians. It's ludicrous My god, they tried though the guardian newspaper Invented a story that a bunch of russians with paul manifold the An advisor to trump turned up at the equator in embassy and put it all over the front page. It never happened fake news Fake news. Well, since you mentioned ray, let's move on to ray So let me ask you this as as someone who's worked on the inside and has worked as a as an analyst for many years a ca analyst um, is there any foundation to uh, to the claim that what he did um Is is is um deserving of uh prosecution And i'll just say i'll just before you answer. I just want to just just um Mention that i'm grateful ray organized a meeting for me with julian while julian was still at the uh, Ecuadorian embassy And i i'm very grateful for that. So i so thank you. I just wanted to put that out there But do you think that what he did what he exposed is deserving of of prosecution not to say persecution? right Oh, you're asking me. Yes Of course not. Um, what he exposed was the truth Uh, this is something in very short supply. Uh these days Uh, as john has so eloquently stated Uh, it's a marginalization of people who speak the truth You know, uh back in the exposed secrets that were dangerous to the state and therefore Is deserving of of prosecution. That's the claim that's out there Very briefly, uh after the war logs came out on afghanistan and iraq Uh, a lot of the people screaming always endangering lives. She's endangering sources and methods and so forth and finally, uh centered 11 ahead of the armed services committee at the time said hey, mr. Gates Secretary of defense, give us a memo on that will you and this is what gates said Uh, these charges are quote significantly over ross any quote Okay charges against julian. Yeah, so he said that, you know Uh, what what happened was not only he said that but the head of the nato forces in afghanistan said them and so did the us army commander of that part of the world so Uh, those are unsubstantiated churches that don't hold the don't hold water and i was really shocked that the Queen's prosecutor started out with that at the latest round with With julian. It's crazy. It doesn't hold water and you have the secretary of defense saying that so, um Let me ask you as well the whole russia theory you write a lot about russia and the whole russia gate issue You are a russia expert. Is there any reason to assume that? Is there any reason to believe that these claims have Are founded Well, I like uh, john pilger's long-winded answer to that. It's crap I mean you want to blacken somebody? You might say they're identified with russia. It's really really crazy. I have friends that think i'm working for vladimir poutine And these are not dumb friends. They just you know every now and then Trump says something that is correct Okay, it's only two percent of the time But you know if it's if it matters you need to give him credit for that and russia gate, of course, he's correct on So, you know, it is real really a problem getting the the information out there so americans can understand what's really going on You know edmund bergbeck and the late What 18th century talked about the fourth estate those gentlemen in the balcony who are more important Than all three estates at the time in parliament. Well, there there was a fifth estate created by julien assange It still exists But that fifth estate is so dangerous to the powers to be That they they try to clamp clamp down on it and make an example of julien. This is what happens to you If you dare to reveal secrets like collateral murder I would I would add that On collateral murder. We know there was a washington post correspondent with that same unit. We know that he saw the video We know that he didn't say anything. We know that he wrote a book about this unit and call it the good soldiers Yes, there it is. Okay, there's the the The abrogation of responsibility by the by the mainstream press Well the collusion actually ray I would go more than abrogation collusion. Yeah And uh, his name was finkel. He's were risen far far high in the washington post circles And I think he got a noble price or noble but a Pulitzer for that You know, it's really very insidious. It's very incestuous. And it's uh, You know, I would like to if I may go uh a juice one small example Of the kind of material that came out of the state department cables Which I found really really interesting from a russian analyst's point of view. May I do that? Please Okay Well, this had to do with the The the question as to whether ukraine and georgia could become part of nato Now nato had already doubled in size Despite george hw bush's promise to garbatshof We won't move one inch to the east of germany if you allow the reunification of germany So it already doubled and then all about 2008 that became rumors and then reports ukraine is going to Apply for membership in nato. Okay, so on the first of february serguei lavrov newly appointed foreign minister says Uh, uh Call call bill burns. I need to talk to the u.s. Ambassador burns goes in and he says mr burns Do you know what yet means? Now we have this in burns this cable courtesy Bradley your shelter manning and wiki leaks Yes, I think I know what net means. Well yet means net You you report to your superiors that if you enlarge nato to include ukraine and georgia There'll be real trouble. We'll have to decide whether to intervene in ukraine yet means yet Tell your folks back home that So now I have to say that bill burns. Uh, one of the better foreign service officers did a Well, he told it straight. He told uh, I guess it was going to at least arise at that time Look, you better not try this. The russians have real security concerns here It would be sort of like a cuba a cuba incident here With the arm pinning on their regional perspective. So what happened? Well Uh on two two months later on april 3rd 2008 nato Declared in his formal declaration NATO and ukraine and georgia will become part of nato period Whoa So Were we warned about that? Yes, we were warned that was 2008 now 2013 comes along and because poutine helped pull obama's Chestnuts out of the fire with respect to making war on syria for this false flag Chemical attack outside the mescus in august of 2013 Poutine says look mr. Obama We can we can figure this out because we've got a working group We can destroy all those residual those archaic syrian chemical weapons on a boat on the use of un supervision on one of your one of your ships here That's specifically outfitted for such destruction. Uh, you think that'd be a good idea? And obama breathes of syria leaving. Oh, wow. I don't have to start another war after all I can do this now. Why do I mention that because on in early september? 2013 the new york times published an op ed by poutine and he said, you know, i'm really delighted That there's a growing trust Between our countries and between mr. Obama and me personally Whoa That can't be allowed Who's going to be able to sell arms to europe if the the russians have a growing trust with the us and vice versa? So what happened? Well? Five six months later. There's the coup in ukraine Now this all is the context in which this happens the coup in ukraine and of course russia seized Crimea or sabastopol the the naval port that they're there That they've had since kathryn the great its only warm water naval base And so the the the neocons had their way The the warming or the growing trust was dissipated mh 17 comes along Even the europeans are persuaded by the united states to To cut off their nose despite their face to Introduce very stringent sanctions that help the europeans more as much as that hurt the europeans As much as the russians so you know From looking at that one cable and if i've seen one cable from embassy moscow probably Several thousand okay, it's genuine and that goes to the root of this thing You know Does julian doctor what he puts out does he embellish it or comment on it? Hell no And i want to point out here if because it's very ironic He got a left-handed compliment from my old colleagues at the cia And what was that compliment? Well in this Community assessment about russian interference the date was 6 january 2017 They said all the russians hacked of course they didn't I hope you all know that they didn't okay russians hacked and gave it to wikileaks Why did they give it to wikileaks? Well, I have the answer right here. That's precisely the claim That's precisely the claim that's out there. Yeah, okay, but this is why they gave it to liquid weeks according to this analysts of cia nsa and fbi moscow most likely chose wiki leaks Because of its self-proclaimed reputation for authenticity Disclosures through wiki leaks Did not contain any evident forgeries Okay, well, let's get rid of the adjectives here. I mean julian bragged and he had every reason to brag about 100 percent Accurate record. I'm trying to say record the correct way. Okay, it is a hundred percent Okay, and that's why when you look at wiki leaks material including the dnc Emails that wiki leaks published didn't get from russian But they published it and showed that hell of a it's stolen the nomination from bernice sanders. That's really hurt celery okay, so all these things come into play and It's really very unfortunate that well unfortunate At least one could say you know, I just want to finish here with my little thing on on What it reminds me is It reminds me of the death of a salesman, you know Arthur miller He has a he quotes willy loman's wife. I don't want to screw it up. So I'm gonna read it here Will willy loman's wife cries out in in agony He's a human being and a terrible thing is happening to him So attention must be paid He's not to be allowed to fall into his grave like an old dog Attention attention must be paid must be finally paid to such a person Now that goes in space for julien assange our mutual friend And attention must be paid and it's true bear that it's just us doing it But we have to break into the consciousness of people who care about justice and make sure that julien has vindicated Thanks Thank you ray Roger I So you've been involved in so many issues as an activist, but you know, palestine, of course Has been something that you you've you've put yourself out on a limb supporting bds supporting You know being out there with your kofia in in in concerts and so on Now you're advocating for probably the most controversial guy on earth, julien assange Can you tell us a just talk a little about about your work in regard to julien how you got involved Why why do you feel so strongly about About speaking up for for julien assange I could attempt that but i'm not going to because I've been listening to the testimony from these two great men and uh, it's so far beyond My ken they have a grip on detail that I know all about all of the detail that both john and ray have Shared with us here and it's extremely, uh, obviously important and and it's Great stuff to know and whatever so I thank them both for for that for reiterating. I've heard it many many times before because I live in your world I live in the world that we live in the four the five of us sitting here today We live in a world that most people do not inhabit sadly If people lived in our world this program is called i've just looked at it up here the trial of julien assange If most people lived in the world that you and I inhabit It would go something like this it wouldn't venessa Whatever name Verica is her name who is the judge who will decide upon julien assange's fate on her fucking own this woman If she wasn't the judge if I was the judge and if the world Understood all the things that ray and john and micho and roger understand It would go something like this and i'm quoting myself here now It would go the evidence before the court is inconsiderable There's no need for the jury to retire Case dismissed The fucking end of it because this is such a put up kangaroo court pieces of bollocks So none of us should be taking it even faintly seriously So our our dilemma here is that we have to because it's the reality of our lives Vanessa Barrett sir will do her thing obviously in january. She's gonna come out Well, she's gonna sit between now and january and we all knew what she was going to write six months ago It's a complete charade But why why is it then that every journalist in the world isn't standing up for for julien assange a completely innocent man I've got a little anecdote which again has nothing to do with this miraculously delivered Detail of this sometime in the summer of 2019. I've been on tour for a couple of years I came back to the united states sitting in the sunshine looking at the lovely view outside my lovely house with some Painter chap here with his girlfriend blah blah blah a couple of glasses of wine. I bring our passage Oh, christ. Have you seen what's happened now? Isn't it awful? And this woman who may be perfectly nice. I don't know. I'd never met before and I've never met her again suddenly went Do you think I said, what are you talking about? Well, he did rape those women, you know, oh god Fuck me, you know, and there's nothing you can do but flying to arrange and go. No, he didn't Why would you say that? Well, I've read it in the new york times or the hero there Yes, she has because this this is concerted thing to organize what we the people believe To be going on in the world And to print it and to keep saying it over and over and over again And as gearing said if you tell the big lie often enough people will believe it and they have believed the big lie about Assange and part of the reason That nobody not nobody but that there are only maybe I don't know 100 000 of us or something over the world who are going what this is insane This is a great man a great journalist a great publisher a great human being and a great thinker He should be on a statue in front of the houses or in Trafalgar Square Take fucking Nelson down, you know that one. I'm blind bloke and stick union up there We're guarded by the lions of the British Empire And and and obviously he's not and why because of what ray and john have explained to us He is an inconvenient truth to the oligarchs who run the world for their own benefit And so he has to be Removed you think the trial is a foregone conclusion. You think the judge is gonna is going to It is Unless she is gone You think she's not even listening to him. First of all, they've stopped people giving evidence I know people who were trying to go to the court to give her They've stopped journalists going to cover it unless they're the paid hacks from the new york times And the times of london and the washington post and all the rest of the mainstream media They're allowed to cover it, but they won't That's why they're allowed to cover it because they know that they won't Because they've been told Not to so they don't So that's so yeah, of course, it's a foregone conclusion You know the the tragic thing is What what happens then? Well, that's the question and can anybody look at the travesty that's gone on In the old bailey in london over the past 17 days Working days or whatever and tell me that she hasn't made her mind up Every breath that she took every word she uttered in that courtroom said I'm gonna find this bugger guilty and send him to my masters in washington They can kill him. We've had a bloody good try We've had him locked up for no reason at all in a high security jail Where he's been subject to almost Certainly Catching covet 19 in there and dying Plus plus he's been tortured as neils melts have said so eloquently in his in all of his reports And as repub uh reported by our friend k kreg murray who's also been You know covering the um The goings on in the courts over there now So i'm you can hear i can hardly speak with the rage that i feel that the world just doesn't go are you fucking kidding Why are you talking about this has nothing to do with the law nothing to do with justice And certainly nothing to do with what might be good for we the peoples of these united nations This has nothing to do with 1948 and the universal declaration of human rights Julian astanches a human being he has rights. Are they being afforded him not one scrap of his human rights is being afforded And they're just telling people ignore it. We own the media We own the machinery of propaganda We are big brother. We run the ministry of truth and you will do as we tell you Even if we have to persuade the young lady with her glass of white wine That Julian astanches a great piss. Oh, there's something just tasteful about him. They bought it these fucking morons You know, you made a comment at a previous the previous uh panel that i had on zoom You made a comment about it's time to stop being so polite and nice about these things to express the rage And i couldn't agree with you more. I mean i i think it's true and ray always talks about You know, uh, was it thomas akinas? I think uh Quote about if you're not angry, you know, then then that it's a sin not to be angry in cases like this So Let me interrupt so in a ray right, um I've got video of ray going to ask a question of david patreus A q and a in some maybe it was in that jewish place on 92nd street was somewhere up there anyway All he wanted to do was to go in he had to forge his identity even to get ticket to get through the door That's how open they are at 92. Why about answering was it there ray? I can't remember it was that's where he gets there He's done all he's gone through all this stuff. He learned in the cia about getting into meetings So that he can ask a question of some awful murdering united states army general david patreus And they but they cop him at the door. What do they do break his arm? Well practically throw him to the floor put him in handcuffs and take him to prison And he still wouldn't shut up. He still kept talking. He's still Crazy They couldn't get the man to shut up even as these goons were jumping on him He kept talking. No, it's it's it's insane. John. What do you think's gonna? What do you think's gonna john? What do you think's gonna happen? I mean, I I assume you agree with roger said that the trial is a foregone conclusion But then what what happens next? I mean, I you know, I wrote this book about the hurlin foundation by falsin americans who are sent to To these terrible prisons here. This is these, you know, high security prisons here in the united states and they're completely innocent Do you think that's what's going to happen? You think he's going to come here instead of some kind of a trial and What do you expect? First of all, let me say that what roger said about how this judge she's not really a judge. She's only a magistrate But she's certainly a puppet Can you explain the difference? Imagine well a magistrate is is lowly is It doesn't have to have a jury Uh, uh a judge doesn't particularly have to have a jury But if there was a jury in this case, I think would have been thrown out on the first day, of course I've worked her trial of such so a trial of such incredible importance was just incredible consequences And it's not even a full judge and jury No No, no, it's not it's going through the system and that the bottom of the system is the magistrates court They're very powerful people The the chief magistrate One lady a bath not husband is so connected with the the the Defense establishment so called and the arms business in britain That his connections were part of wiki league's exposure She had to stand back because of this This is a judge that when julian first came before her. She abused him Uh, she had to stand back and in came this rather strange gothic looking creature called Vanessa beretsa now when roger when roger talks about how she's made up of mine He's right. I watched her. I sat through most of the 17 days in the public gallery disguised as a member of the public not a member of the press and I watched her after argument of between truncated argument But from the defense the defense's arguments were as they say guillotine At half an hour. That's all they could do. So a witness had only half an hour to say their peace The prosecution on behalf of the u.s. Government had up to four hours Now trust examination usually does have more but the the disproportion of this she would sit there Feigning taking an interest and then she would open a laptop And read her decision Which had already been written and that happened time and time again Uh, that's why it's not agit prop It's not rhetoric to call it a show trial The only difference with a show trial the kind of Stalinist show trials that went on during the cold war was that the the the Defendant actually stood in the court proper in the dock julian wasn't even allowed to do that He was in a glass cage Effectively it was a corridor at the back of the court and the only way he could communicate with his Lawyers was to get down on his knees And push a post it through a slit or talk through his mask To a junior lawyer who would then pass the note through the body of the court up to the barristers Who were who were arguing the case against his accreditation extradition to an american hellhole? That's how it was conducted Uh, it was a show trial from beginning to end. Uh, I mean, that's very important. This is not just A descriptions. I say it's not just agit prop on our part. That is an accurate description of what happened. What will happen? Uh, okay. He's uh, uh, she says he is to be extradited There will I have to say we hope Britain has a home secretary at the moment. That is a equivalent of an interior minister Who is probably the most extreme certainly the most extreme in my memory. Her name is pretty pretel Uh, she seems to hate all humanity and undoubtedly hates julian But uh It's an appeal. I understand is that her discretion It there will be an appeal And the hope for julian I've always felt Is that when it goes into the court of the court of appeal into real courts And there still are real courts Uh, some of these crustal even very conservative judges Uh, some of them do have actually a belief in the law Injustice I'm sorry john. I just can you clarify this again? So So so if this judge decides to extradite him His lawyers will will request an appeal It'll be appealed either way even even even if a miracle happened and and You know had some lobotomy or something the night before Then uh and and found for julian Then the u.s. Government would appeal it will go to appeal regardless and that's when it goes down the road Into the strand the royal courts of justice where the the uh, the Court of Appeal is You said that the interior minister It's at the it's at her discretion As I understand it's at her discretion, but that may well be a formality, but look may I don't know Uh, it could it could well You know where these people the people running britain are true extremists And I said I don't say that likely I say Is the appeal court is the appeal court would that be a jury trial or is it to Three judges or three judges, right? So it's like the american system where the court of appeals is like a A panel of three, but there's three real judges Very well Not Paris. I mean not not not magistrates. They're they're they're judges there And occasionally Occasionally though even at that level That is called the high court these judges make political decisions, of course they do But I've seen them actually make decisions based on the law Uh, if if that fails it could go to the the uk supreme court Which used to be called the law lords and is no longer it's now the supreme court Which has A certain in a short life kind of liberal tradition almost so The point the point is through all of this Julian is going to be in solitary confinement in belmarsh prison Denied Denied any real stimulus in his life. Why is he being held? Why is he being held in? Why is he being held in a cell while this is going on? Why does he have to be in prison during the procedure the proceedings because they say he's a flight risk Takeaways most famous face on They want to they want to this is the beginning. This is punitive Of course it is but legally is there no argument That his lawyers can make to to counter that You know This is this is an utterly lawless hero I mean, I think that's what we have to say. It's a lawless I didn't think I would sit through that most through most of the the the court hearings for julia Last year and and this year in this latest one. These are these are lawless events And to the point where you hear Season lawyers the people who are part of the establishment called qc's queens counsel You hear them say things I never thought I'd hear Them say about the system The judge the cause the magistrate the court and so on We're through a lawless period because there's an extreme period. These are politic. This is a political court This is the political trial of this century and one of the great political trials Of certainly of my lifetime. It's often compared with drafus, but I think it's much more much more clear cut and important than drafus the drafus trial represented and so so That's julian's hope that he gets Into the court of appeal And a judge goes against the grain Because it's a mighty grain to go against Ray you've you know, let's talk a little bit about whistleblowers Ray you've worked with whistleblowers. You know a lot of the whistleblowers here in the united states and what has happened to them Can you talk a little bit about His his work and and and the whole issue whistleblowers as it relates to julian? Well, very briefly. That's the idea behind this whole charade. Is it John pelger taught me how to say charade rather than charade. Do you remember jet? Okay, anyhow, that's the the idea We have to quote you when you finish right we have to quote you on that when I first interviewed you in 2003 the carry on sorry okay For once I think I was right But you know it is a charade or charade and the whole point of it is to be as brutal as you possibly can So no one else will even think about doing what julian has done. I mean Panetta has said They've all said it look we have to make an example of this guy Now that has nothing to do with the law That has nothing to do with the first amendment that we used to have That has nothing to do with the magna carte for god's sake 800 years ago So the whole system has been corrupted and the idea of this charade is to make it so painful for julian that He'll either do away with himself Fall to covet 19 as our mutual friend craig murray has suggested they really want And not make it through this appeal process I My own personal view is that if julian didn't have stella And those two beautiful little sons to live for I think well, let me put it this way I think he does have them for that for and I get that john and and rajah will know more But I think that may play a role in his In his determination to get through this thing And that's all I'll really say about this but the whole thing is designed as an example Don't even don't even think of doing what julian saans did because it was too dangerous now think about covet 19 Now the army warns the u.s. Army warned its troops that you know, this thing is going to be awful They're going to be almost 200,000 people killed that was early february of this year Did anybody leak that? Did anybody just I mean hardly classified did anybody have the guts to say We ought to get this out so that people know well with what's happening to julian And the quasi dormant state of wiki leaks You don't want to take a chance, okay because they're going to get you and that's the whole purpose of this thing Yeah And you know what they're doing to julian let me there's there was a bbc reporter who was asked By one of the few who actually answered a question like this Why the bbc wasn't covering this and his view was well the proceedings are rather competitive aren't they I mean I found that obscene profane One on one day which was not covered. I would call it the medical day it sent shivers and I Both craig Murray and I were sitting together and we wondered If we should Even write about it because it revealed the depths of julian's despair But it is out now and we've we that's the day that professor michael koppelman one of the world's leading Neuro psychiatrists Said that julian Would certainly find a way to take his own life If he was sent to the united states But another witness Dr. Kate Murray Another distinguished neuro psychiatrists Said and this is what they've done to him Said julian's intellectual function Had gone from quote the very superior range unquote To significantly below average That's what they've done to him now Having seen julian and visited julian in belmarsh I know that's not the whole story because the man has a formidable resilience Back by a wicked sense of humor and a sense of himself in the world But they've got to him they I had to revise that when I heard some of the evidence Of julian having written Last notes to people Uh and that as this is now out they had found razor blade in his cell and so on all the all the all the the the the the clues to what we know Happens to so many prisoners In oppressive when a court is no longer a court of justice. So the prison allowed razor blade The prison the prison authorities allowed razor blades into his cell they didn't allow it. In fact, they charged him They did the prosecution the prosecution tried to argue against this the prosecution tried to say to these Distinguished people who know what they're talking about who would examine julian Who'd examine julian came for the defense to describe the state he was in The process the prosecution I I mean in this day and age. We're finally recognizing that mental illness illness Uh mental anguish is so widespread Uh that we're starting to to take a civilized approach to it in this day and age this barrister Dismissed their evidence about julian's anguish and despair that could lead to his suicide As malingering that was the term he used malingering a victorian term That they would have used in asylums and bedlam And but the man the man has been hurt So badly As roger mentioned neils melzer the un special reporter on torture Uh said that he was no doubt that he'd been psychologically tortured In the same way that chelsea manning was and they only let chelsea manning out Because she tried on the day before they let her out. She tried to take her own life um This this this is they we're talking about societies apparently still called democracies and civilized We should put out there's the there's the report by the u.s. Repertura on torture There's a link to that I'll ask jamila and michael behind the scenes to find and put it in the chat so people can read Can read can read it. It's a very revealing. It's an excellent report that people should absolutely read Why haven't they seen it? You know, this is the thing. There's nobody's seen it. It's been there for months and months and months We all read it the minute it came out. Well, that's the next thing I was going to ask you They have to let him go tomorrow. It's quite clear. Why are they Fucking around keep why is he still and now and of course listen to you guys and what I know my service It's obvious why they're not letting him out. Why nobody takes why that information isn't disseminated by the new york times So the b the bbc. Oh my god, don't get me started on the bbc The bbc is a complete sham now It's a mockery of what was supposed to be and it's paid for by the people for god's sake It's paid for with taxes from the british people and yet it's become a complete sham that's unbelievably slanted A program that john were made for bbc this is completely another subject but about anti-semitism in the labor party, which is a shocking put up job and just has just been it's floated away on the clouds of rubbish that come out of the ministry of truth and to never to be seen again in in public Well, it will be seen again in public because people like you and you and you and you and me are going to make Fucking sure it's seen again in public because we can't live with the disgusting nature of the deceit bbc having become completely corrupt I wrote to the bbc and suggested that we make another panoramic program showing the other side of the argument about Alleged anti-semitism in the labor party They didn't even answer not even not even an answer But I write to people often I wrote to a I wrote to the foreign secretary You talk about the home so the foreign secretary is a guy called james hunt When I was wanting to go off to Syria to rescue some children whose father had gone off and You know, he was a bit of a jihadi. They were from trinidad and tobago two little kids. Ayub and muhammed We finally got them out. I wrote to asking help from james hunt the then foreign. He never even answered my letter I could send it to you Give me. Oh, I say it myself. It was extraordinarily eloquent and very well written. I did go to a grammar school, you know So we have to understand is they don't give a fuck Then not as john said they have no interest in the law or protocol or democracy or liberty or human rights or any of the things that they pretend To hold dear they have no interest in any of all magna carta that it took an american on our panel to bring up Article 29 no man shall be blah blah blah blah save that he appeared before a jury of his peers and all of that 12 Roger you pre-empted the question I was going to ask I was going to start with you is how the hell do we get the word out? How do we make sure that more of the people Who do think or or maybe are on the fence on this issue and are willing to hear get the damn information? Because it's out there. Like you said the report is out there that Miko my friend Is the 64 000 dollar question Yeah, why don't we get it out? Why doesn't it get out naturally and people go? Oh, that's what's going on Well, this is ridiculous. Let's put a stop to it Well, the answer is that the ministry of truth is enormously more powerful than we are in putting out its propaganda they get to Millions and millions and for every one person that you get to they get to 200 000 Yeah, go come on Ray way in brother I just wanted to uh to Adduce a small example of the of this in a very meaningful way Last time I was with julian uh, it was just before the us election about a week before And uh, he was just completely uh spent But he was happy He was happy because he had done his job Okay, and he had just given an interview to a fellow named john pilger And it was an excellent interview Sent about to the bbc and other places correct me if i'm wrong john And john couldn't pay these people to run the interview He couldn't he couldn't get anybody to take it. So it ended up on rt, which is not ideal Okay, but that's how bad it is. All right, but julian himself felt You know, I've done everything that my conscience Made me do and whatever happens with the us election. That's okay. Let's have a beer and we did That that spoke to me about julian He was in this to to as you say spread the truth around and in an unadulterated way and I mentioned that left-handed compliment from the cia before It's a perfect record. All right, and uh, and it just seems so clear why the Powers that it be are after julian not only after julian, but Hell bent and determined to make an example of him. So none of us How did the great unwashed all those millions billions of people out there? How are they to know that we five are telling the truth and the ministry of truth is telling lies Well, let's get that across to them One way would be if anybody ever listened to the evidence and said well support your theory And then we could get under those circumstances. We can prove there was no chemical attack in duma We can prove julian Assange never committed a crime of any kind except one minor bail infringement We can prove these things, you know We can prove them. We have the The facts are on the side of truth. There is empirical data to support our stance. We are not Conspiracy theorists. We are lovers of fellow human beings human rights and the truth And julian a julian exemplifies and epitomizes all of that, which is why we're also passionate And so passionately Furious so angry that they're killing him because he is a great man He's one of the great men of our generation. I'm sorry. I was going on again No, I'd say he's a great man now What I would like to do Is to invoke the the Noah principle That I've invoked this with my colleagues and veteran intelligence professionals for sanity Um to no avail but the Noah principle is no more awards for predicting rain awards only for building arcs Now We're all frustrated We're all pretty bright, you know Can we not find some way To force this into the public consciousness? We've tried we keep trying and the truth is on our side But I can't resist thinking that somewhere there's some kind of idea that would germinate And like some he's that in the soviet union or like wiki leaks up until now We can get this stuff out And uh, how don't ask me. I'm just trying to ask everybody to think about building arcs Rather than predicting rain Well, uh, look they're after him ray Uh, and they're treating him so appallingly Uh julian And They are punishing him so viciously Because What he did and what wiki leaks has done has been effective Don't ever forget that if it hadn't been effective, they wouldn't have given a day uh They're after him because He released The kind of information That did inform millions of people All over the world and we don't have the time here That there isn't to describe the impact of wiki leaks revelations In every country in the united nations Uh From Northern island down to argentina across to australia to To into up to canya Right across the world Now we can't We don't know how to quantify this But it must have been effective. We know it's been effective Because it it's revelations Uh, for example in tunisia, it's revelations about The regime in tunisia undoubtedly contributed to the downfall of that regime During the so-called arab spring and and there are many others now um I don't think we should Despair Too much. I think we're doing it here and now doing programs like this uh Kicking the door of the Of the the bbc and the rest of them Shaming them as much as possible. They're not spending too much time on them They're part of the problem Uh, and propaganda now is universal as I mentioned the beginning All the cracks the spaces have closed. It's now propaganda 100 percent But there is this wondrous thing called the internet that we're all talking to each other at the moment And millions of people are aware of julian We may know quite a few who are not aware of him or as roger described and that's not an uncommon situation where the silly woman Talked about sweden with such Certainty uh when that was part of the setup to get him wiki leaks only own revelations about peace-loving sweden Revealed it as in effect part of nato And up to its neck with the us so In a way wiki leaks was revealing was giving us the sense of what was about to happen to julie leeks is the arc wiki leaks is julian is noah He felt the fucking arc and they can't bear the fact that the arc is if you I don't really like biblical references I've been worried Ray ray looks at it it almost it almost Looking at ray it's hard to avoid right now How how do we five and all the others hundreds thousands millions maybe like us how do we Compete how do we persuade people that what we say is the truth and that it is Supremely important that people begin to understand of what we say is the truth because But you know julian is what we're talking about here now, but these fuckers are destroying the planet Faster than is imaginable. Yeah in front of our eyes and and they're going. Oh, look, there's kim kardashian's bum let's look at that and and so You know, I'm sure it's lovely that kim kardashian's bum, but So much more important to look at the fact that they are destroying the planet There's nowhere for our grandchildren to live. It'll be gone. Everybody will be dead gone finished over and the reason the Probably the main reason that julian is having to suffer so much Is as an example It is meant to intimidate and there is something called the assange effect and the assange effect has happened throughout the world I've I was in australia recently the australian federal police Invading the australian broadcasting corporation officers taking away journalists computers laws coming in that uh allow courts in camera to to uh Making in effect the sum of it making journalism a crime And and that's why getting julian is so important because it'll intimidate Journalists like me for instance or others who Who who have have Are committed to to write being just old-fashioned journalists Investigative or whatever but just being journalists it will change it so that it makes a journal most journalists It'll make it official. They're all public relations people from here on Most of them are now anyway, but the whole lot will be First they came for the jews, then they came for the gypsies, then they came for the commonists Then they came for the journalist and then they came for you I don't I want to he's the tip of the he's you know, he's the spearhead of this except that Coming for the journalists is so fundamental to our capacity to survive That's why we're here Well gentlemen, I I'd like to I'd like to I think it's a good place to Allow for some questions We're not going to take too many although there are lots of questions in the in the in the q&a thing So jamil, would you hop back in? and maybe pick the best a few and Let's get this going go ahead. Please everything the first question is from janet The question is what has happened to the wiki leaks infrastructure that julian designed? Is it shut down? no, it's not shut down and it's It has an editor in chief In christian rafton Who took over from julian? Obviously a lot of energy is going on On on on defending julian, but it certainly hasn't shut down. No So and he's from iceland. They're the only people who imprisoned their bankers after 2009 So there's a lot in Icelandic blood for a stall to aspire to. I've met him obviously. He's a good man Are they publishing information as wiki leaks publishing more material if people want to access it to the what do they do? What do they do? Well, it's difficult at the moment because it's mainly publishing about julian Yeah, it has to this is the most important issue. Of course, you know, he goes wiki leaks wiki leaks will probably survive But but julian must not be allowed to To sink and a lot of wiki leaks is energy And the people in wiki leaks is devoted to To defending yeah Go ahead jameel The next question is from rania I would like to know when did journalism or the role of journalists change? Did it happen at a specific historical time? Like a shift that took place in order to control the media worldwide and shut down truth in real news with the purpose of creating this nasty Unjust world we are living in When was the beginning of the end of true journalism? From news from from providing news to providing pr and entertainment, I guess is the question John you want to start with that go ahead? I don't think there's ever been So-called mainstream true journalism We if you if you pick up a a very good book like the first casualty by fellow nightly about How wars have been reported and he goes back He's he says the only and he makes it's an excellent book and that he describes All the coverage of wars right from The crime era in the mid 19th century. He said that's the last british war that was reported honestly And since then Right through the second world war the the cover-up of of hiroshima one reporter wilfred birchard Broke from the pack to go to hiroshima to report The effects the true effects the atomic bomb that the new york times reporter was up to his neck with the uh with the u.s. Uh occupation people and the atomic energy People and had put out these stories that uh The only uh casualties the casualties have been caused strictly by the blast There was no such thing as radio activity In fact the headline in the new york times said no radio activity in hiroshima ruin. So that's 1945 Uh, and it's gone back well before that korea was reported Uh, mostly as propaganda. So it's not new We must understand that it's not new but we've come a long way since then and the arrival of all of us have learned something the generations have have progressed and the arrival of of wiki leaks Uh, as I think exemplified The the quest of new generations for real journalism a break with the old And that's what wiki leaks has done Go ahead please John you know an awful lot more than anybody else about cambodia in vietnam, uh, would you Would you agree that? A censorship went on steroids with respect to vietnam and Later embedding journalists and all that kind of thing Is there a difference in kind between vietnam and earlier or is it just a simple progression? There was a superficial difference Uh, which seduced a lot of reporters Uh, it seemed that you could go anywhere and see what you wanted to and that was a true That was true Up to a point of zealom war wrote of lord copper Up to a point But if you take just the melee massacre, uh, which happened In 1968 When there was something like 200 reporters in saigon not one of them Not one of them wrote that story. It was only seymour hirsch who never went to vietnam Who bothered to interview? Lieutenant cali and all his people who had done this Done this war crime and pieced together the story As as a maverick Not a very well funded journalist at the time. He wasn't he was a freelance so That that was that's one of the great stories of vietnam the whole I mentioned earlier the collateral murders Were common. I wrote about the forms of collateral murders in quang nai province in vietnam It it the the anger directed at me later by Journalists on for example newsweek and others particularly in the united states Because in saigon whenever you went into The bureau offices they would have on the wall Pictures that were never published of of uh of war crimes stories their own The the original copy of stories that good reporters had sent which were turned down by editors So one of the reasons that vietnam actually went on for as long as it did contrary to the the The received wisdom that the media brought that war to an end. It didn't Was uh was was the fact that That by and large the reporters Perhaps not in the field but certainly in new york and in london In the newspaper offices Were on side in the same way the new york times is permanently on side as the washington post is And as the guardian is and so on By the way, you mentioned seymour hersh. I'll say two things about him number one His memoir reporter is out and he talks to him a lot of details about how he exposed the meli massacre Which is it's a great book. I recommend it and he's also a journalist who can't get a word into any any regular newspaper anymore You know, he can't publish nobody will publish his work because it's it's like you john It's it's the kind of stuff that uh, you know, the powers that be don't want don't want out there Jamil should we Maybe you guys can put out the uh the link to uh to reporter if anybody wants to check out that and and his work on meli A lot of his articles are still available online about that You really want to go ahead and uh, maybe we'll take two more questions and then and then that'll be it Sure, this one is from uh, constantine And this one is uh directed at roger However, I think I think we can probably open it up to ray and john as well if they have something to say So, uh, the question is as someone who's heavily influenced by the works of huxley and orwell And admits that their predictions about the present world are correct How do you think we can move away from the current dystopian state of affairs? Asan just clearly an effective member of the resistance But his efforts are continuously put into shame by the officials as is the case for many other activists Just like in the books by those authors. How do we win over that? Well, education clearly they have to completely change our education policy and start educating our children I live in the united states. So we're a very good thing if they started there if every child went for start from start with You have to start funding education You have to give money to it instead of spending it on building a nuclear weapon So and you know sending f16s to the middle east to kill yemenis If you spent that money instead on building proper schools and paying teachers and educating and those and the children in those schools It should be absolutely required reading 1984 in a brave new world Among many many other books that there is a great deal of wisdom out there in the world of literature I suspect that sigh hershey's book Whatever we'll find its way onto that list at some point. Let me just finish right just me finish I forgot what was going to say now because he stuck his finger up go on. I'll remember while you're telling us I'm sorry. Yeah, that's all right No, I just wanted to paraphrase what you've just been saying and that is our children Need to know as you've eloquently stated. They're still killing the children They're still killing the children. Absolutely. That is manifest And our children have no way of learning that and I'm not saying first graders, but I'm saying high school and up Yeah, we have to we have to let them know that They're still killing the children. I've remembered what I was gonna what I was gonna say as well In america anyway, and it's probably it's true all over the world in the uk We should be taught about our settler colonial past and what we did to the world when we with the power with all the hegemonic powers and And we practically destroyed this planet single hand Whether uk and the french and the belgians and the germans and the dutch mainly mainly from europe It's happening now in palestine That you know as we all know settler colonial is american children have to be taught the history of the united states of america None of them know anything about it But then none of them know or most of them know nothing about anything They don't know whether yemen is they could most of them can't point to england on the map never mind iraq or vietnam They have no idea. They live in this isolated little hegemonic Organization that and where they happily feed all the all their work all their effort to jeff bezos So he can pontificate about us all living in space in spaceship fucking prick It's so absurd Anyway, so I can't remember what the question was now. What do we do? Educate our children, you know and stop killing them as ranger And the thing is with the educating the children. I you know as a parent and you know We need to talk to our children as well. We need because they're not like roger was saying very clearly They're not getting I mean, you know, even if they do study 1984 in high school We need to talk about these things at home every day Show them how we vote show them why we vote show have the discussions about politics have the discussions about the environment From an early age get them involved and get them to care and get them to know and take them around That's how we that's how we we we change the story because then they grew up and they changed the story And also, you know, we widen our own networks We have to talk to the neighbor and we have to talk to the neighbor's neighbor And then we have to get together with those two neighbors and bring somebody from across the street So maybe he still has a trump sign up, you know, we have to do this one person at a time And then grow the network and organize in a way that people do get that information That's out there and that their children get involved and come in and listen not, you know Sit in the next room watch tv but come in and be part of the conversation. I think that's how we Sorry go. No, I'm sorry. Go ahead Well, I was just saying so We're talking about breaking down the the famous wall We have to break down our own personal walls before we can engage with our fellow human beings And we have to do this not just between us and our children But across the boundaries that exist between us and the bloke who lives down the street and people who live in other countries and Between the settler colonialists us and the people who lived there when we came in and started killing them Because it's not certainly my generation wasn't wasn't or anything about that. We just assumed that The british amper was all right, you know, what's wrong with that and there's a couple of couple of great And you learn about it and then suddenly you start to get a cold feeling of going Fuck me. We did we did that. I did that we did that And then you start to earn that there is no such thing as race That we're all homo sapiens Probably started in africa a couple hundred thousand years ago We're all brothers and sisters. It doesn't matter what we look like Doesn't matter if we look chinese or mongolian or african or european or whatever. It doesn't matter. We're all we're all cousins all of us And we're all in the same boat. We're all in the same arc and we're sinking We are sinking and there are a couple of great there are a couple of great songs out there one that talks about being just a being just another brick in the wall And there's an one about being comfortably numb That I think roger may have had something to do with both of these songs And I think people need to listen to the lyrics listen to the words because the words have a great deal of meaning I know that the the the comfortably numb is something that we see all around us That's exactly the problem is that people are comfortably numb Well, I did I did an interview with my friend vj. Prashad the other day And he made the whole interview about one song in mind the gunner's dream And he reminded me that there's a couple of lines in it with you know, um and which go um A place to stay enough to eat somewhere old hero shuffled safely down the street where you can speak out loud about your doubts and fears And what's more no one ever disappears. You never hear their standard issue kicking in your door You can relax on both sides of the tracks and maniacs don't blow holes in bansman by remote control And everyone has recourse to the law and no one kills the children anymore And I and I thank vj to reminded me that I wrote those words in 1980 So listening to the lyrics of some of these great old songs, you know, especially with especially with If we're talking about education, this is uh, this is education This is part of part part of part of the legacy that's out there Should we take one last question jameel? You guys have been very generous with your time. I think we'll take one more and call it a day Sure, and thank you to everybody who submitted questions and apologies for not being able to get through You know we had like over 80 submitted So this one is from ellie the question is in a world that takes truth as a threat Do you ever feel pressure when speaking your truthful mind? I believe people get scared into agreeing with lies and popular opinions on the julien assange topic for the sake of not being hated Truth as a threat. Wow gentlemen, why don't you go all all around everybody? Truth is a threat to truly what we've just been talking about Which is basically we we if we're going to have a civilized society and and literally save the world Those of us especially those of us who live in powerful societies have to look in the mirror Looking in the mirror is critical And that's what our education doesn't do our journalism has almost never done it It's looking in the mirror if we looked in the mirror and understood what empires do The british empire that roger has referred to It's carnage instead of this ridiculous benign idea of of empire that is still promoted the leader of the labor party Sir kia starma started to talk about patriotism And the empire all over again How can he get away with this? You know that the quality of public discourse is so low That that people can actually start praising the empire. Look at the american empire Americans as roger was they don't even know they've got an empire boy. Have they ever they've got the biggest empire They've they've done they've done more damage in their empire In in a relatively short space of time than other empires Controlling the destinies of other people plundering their resources denying their children food and education Destroying their environment. That's what empires do Uh, you know that mica because your country is the product of empire and that's that is is Is is is something that has to be addressed at every level of public education And information if we are to become a truly civilized society And even the word civilization was of course Uh appropriated by the imperialists, but there is a word civilization that applies to humanity Will only be that if we look in the mirror Thank you john go ahead ray Yeah, I would just amen amen to what john just said And uh, no one has mentioned, uh, the real f word fascism Uh When john pilger first interviewed me 17 years ago. Can you believe it john? He ended up with a with a question about fascism And I think you referred obliquely to that before john. Do you want that you want? I've got it exactly. I'd written it down. I asked ray Um, what he made of norman mailers from our What mailer was still alive then? That america had entered a pre fascist state And ray answered. I hope he's right Because there are others that saying we're already in a fascist mode 17 years on ray. What do you think? Well, I'm afraid to To say that it looks like this whole business of suppressing the first amendment and the free speech Is an integral part of fascism It's sort of like the necessary step and that's what we're dealing with. I mean Make no mistake about it once they Once they make sure that we have to believe everything in the new york times and there are no other outlets Then it's going to be a piece of cake. There's going to be a cake wall To institute full fascism in this country and then elsewhere Roger you want to end with a statement about that? That was I thought that was a great question in World where truth is threat Go on say say I'm just saying either she she was saying in a world where truth is a threat How do you not how do you not be afraid to stand up and speak as as you do? well I thought John and ray's answer to that question was fascinating in that they totally ignored the question because they are unafraid They are truth tellers and they are unafraid and that makes me feel Passionately proud to be sitting with them and you on this webinar You know, it reminds me of the story. I constantly tell about my old mum saying you're going to come up against tricky questions during your life when I was about that big and and she said um When you do Look at the question from all sides get all the other but didn't gather it together Right and make certain that you've got the facts and the whatever then you will have done all the hard work The easy bit comes next you do the right thing Wow, what a great gift that woman gave to me, but that's what they do Ray and john they they know a lot about a lot and what do they do with their truth? Their actual true knowledge of things They do the right thing and that is what we must expect of ourselves And of all our comrades and brothers and sisters all over the world Fuck the consequences If you don't do that, you might as well be dead in my view Yeah, so we've had uh, I'm just looking at this panel gentlemen. You've been incredible. We've got uh a journalist Um, we've got a whistleblower and we've got a uh an artist and musician a poet So I think this is a great. Uh, this is a great combination I'll say, you know people talk about uh courage and you know being an activist and being courageous I think I think in the case of at least the four of us um You know being white males in this world obviously give us privilege and and and I think the important thing is to use our Privilege wisely and to use our privilege to expose the truth Um because for other people who perhaps are not as white and and and and male It's not it's not quite as easy But all three of you have been terrific very generous with your time today and your work is uh Phenomenal, I think the issue um, I would ask everybody to tweet today And to use uh free assange hashtag and if we all do it and maybe do it for a while It's gonna get some we're gonna get some traction Um, this is going to be available on youtube very very soon. So you can share that with people I think some great things have been said in this on this panel. So again, uh, john and ray and roger I can't thank you enough And um, let's hope that we see julian assange free and soon I just like to thank john and roger for all the good support they have rendered to julian and to his legal team And to all the other people who fight for justice You've been a real beacon and an encouragement for the rest of us to pick up where we can and try to help So thanks john. Thanks roger and thanks miko for getting this together. Sure learned a lot today. Thank you gentlemen Have a nice day. Have a nice. Bye. Take care