 All right welcome back it's still the breakfast on plus TV Africa away from off the press our first discussion for this morning is insecurity specifically terrorism financing it is disheartening when we hear stories in the newspapers all over that 18 billionaires actually moved within the nations and financial system annually you know for the islamic state of west african province it is disturbing how did they get their financing how could they pass through you know our financial system undetected so basically that's what we'll be talking about at this particular segment and we have a you know former assistant director of the the department for state services and then is a mockery joining us on this this course a good morning to you Dennis a mockery all right many thanks for joining us on this particular discourse you know sometimes it is really disheartening when you think that we have a financial system and that's supposed to be you know a very formal system how is it possible that terrorism could actually be financed you know when Nigeria is actually at the peak of you know the war against insurgency and 18 billionaires actually moved within the nation some system annually undetected yes you have a good the system is formal but this particular set of monies are being moved in the informal sector because we have an illicit criminal economy that exists you know and it is very very vibrant whereby you know a lot of different kinds of bodies have moved in and out either for terrorism financing or for by the farms all part of the same violent criminal economy okay so i remember vividly that the attorney general of the federation sometime in may had announced that the Nigerian government was very i mean was have started the prosecution of 400 suspected Boko Haram financiers and was profiling you know some persons so the question now for me is do you think that we're winning the the fight against insurgency i mean looking at the fact that you know the the president came through and he said security is a major consent for him and how many more years to go what are your thoughts juxtaposing that with the fact that this funds we know how vital and important you know funds are for every institution yeah now let's go back a little bit history or in the recent past that we'll find out that actually um all these monies where Boko Haram started they don't have any money they don't even have guns but in 2002 it was very significant that Osama bin Laden you know heard about Boko Haram and actually came around and gave about three billion dollars you know where they started buying guns and then as they started buying guns they had this affiliation and they were being taught on how to raise money because there is no way you can continue um uh running a terrorist opposition without raising money and then they now ended up that's what we started hearing about kid Lapey all kinds of back robbery uh drug drug smuggling you know even protection money some governors in the north were paying protection money to these guys so that they will not be attacked and they were paying in the millions you know so i am not surprised right now that it has reached up to 80 billion because that economy is actually booming and then of course with all the things that are going on even in the chad area the Boko Haram people control the fish market the fish market from the chad you know so these are all different forms of how they raise their money and then of course we were very serious about uh persecuting them how many have they prosecuted so that if you read the newspapers you don't even see you know where people are prosecuted um how they have done to jail um the ones that they caught in Dubai we are still talking about it and we need to get those people in jail so that others will learn lessons but um we are so slow about it that it encourages them to continue kid Lapey is a big business in Nigeria right now and this is what is going on we have to start looking at this is very very critically because Nigeria is a member of all those international anti-violent groups and then we should of course make our membership very effective all right uh Dennis uh the equals body that came out on with this particular reporter said let me just quote them that the government lacked adequate insight into Boko Haram and eastwap international linkages and abuse of the former financial and commercial sectors do you agree with that postulation yes i think uh we are not looking at it and there is no way we are busy trying to either you know uh get it right with the informal sector forget about terrorism let's think about ourselves right now you know when you look at the parking sector it is all those big companies and big people or salaried people that are walking and getting loads and you know in fact we don't you know remember what they said we are good cashless society cashless society now the cashless society they try to put this in place whereby you use card you don't change cash and all the rest but we are still using cash Nigeria is largely a cash society the market woman selling tomato and all those kind of those people don't use ATMs they don't use POS you know so it's cash based and most of this is a ransom payment for kidnapping it's cash you know it doesn't go through the formal system so the the government does not have a very good idea about how much money is being moved around in that particular plan okay putting it put in a differently right now um then it's uh 18 billion an era is actually a war paying sum and you heard um historically talked about them how um you know uh Boko Haram got the attention of a Musamabin nothing but if they are transacting or maybe doing some sort of financial uh transactions uh in the country is it like they have businesses here that have formed the operations or just how exactly do they get to move 18 billion nara across Nigeria annually okay um you know it is not the situation where you collect the money out to when it is 18 million you move it around okay this is the total sum of what is available in that economy that criminal economy you know the volume of business going on is 18 billion that's what the report is saying and then when you look at it it's bigger than the annual this you know of many countries you know so um it's a very large sum of money what happens is that people are using it what like I said in that informal business informal platform this is the volume that is moving around all right understood uh Dennis okay um Dennis Amakuri let's also talk about the fact that you know the government as a way of fighting because I mean we're still very big on the BVN and the NIN uh you know sim linkage do you think that that's uh that's been very effective with the fight against uh insorgency um the BVN is still tied to the formal circle you know the NIM and the BVNs are all tied to the formal sector and they have not been very effective it says that you know um I know if you drop a lump sum into the any bank it will be reported to central bank and central bank is supposed to investigate to find out where this money is coming from uh but I don't know how good to do that I am not really tell because I don't know I'm not head of anybody that has been confronted uh with the likes of money uh huh so these are the kind of things I really I can answer your question I will tell you that I I don't think it has been very very effective okay but we also had a case where uh Kudobank reported you know a person who actually dropped 800,000 Naira or there about now you've also mentioned the case of that the government have not been able to prosecute their slow to action and also that's not far from the truth because the government themselves had said I remember that this statement was made all the way in New York that they had identified those who were sponsoring and you know funding this terrorist group and as such there will be prosecutors so the question is do you have an idea why they haven't been prosecuted well we have a very slow justice uh system the criminal justice system is very very small in Nigeria because we don't give priority to some cases people they are high-profile cases I remember Evans the kid rapper this case it was just for last week when he was sentenced to death and after how many years you know so uh we are not very very uh fast when it comes to dealing with this because when you don't uh do justice and let it be seemed to be done you know then people will take him for granted many states have even declared kidnapping as uh they've uh said they've passed the law saying it's death sentence if you are caught kidnapping but how many people have been caught and how many people have been sentenced to death we are not yet uh we've not heard anything about that so I think that's where we are so the case that we have right now would you say that is the fact that you know the financial institution in Nigeria is not they are loopholes I mean there's a lacuna or they're not properly structured or it could be that the federal government in itself is not willing you know to prosecute arrest and deal with this persons who are sponsoring and funding this group of persons well when you talk about the financial system whether it has loopholes I think it does it does uh it is something that could be overcome but I don't think that we are actually serious unfortunately we are not very serious unfortunately because um there are loopholes the informal sector especially is is there a lot of money moves around and um we are not being able to gather it into a system where it can be monitored and I think that is the biggest problem we are having so all these terrorists can you know use their kind and move them around in fact uh change it into dollars and then of course move it around so these are the things that are happening we should be able to diligently diligently make sure that we spread the net in such a way that most of the monies that are moving into the informal sector come back into the system whereby central bank or even the EFCC can't be monitoring that they're knowing that this is what is going on all right and Dennis uh you know the um global anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing stand that stipulates that uh you know this asset of a you know terrorist should be confiscated but this report that came out had just uh barely 24 hours ago exactly indicting the federal government of not confiscating the assets of these terrorists yes there are resources of problems we have you know Nigeria is a member of the financial action tax force uh international body under the united nations I think and uh we've not been able to write ourselves very well we've been on that list of countries that are not compliant you know countries that are not compliant now um why do we keep on um not meeting up to this and I don't want to call it a Nigeria factor because normally I know whenever anything happened in Nigeria there is this factor of manual or long leg or whatever you know and even the terrorists some of them that have been arrested some cannot even be prosecuted because you find out people begging for them or some one that will make you political statements about them and stuff like that so those those situations where we are not you know following up on certain things I think is the factor that is pulling us back where there is a look attitude or like a physical attitude in certain things that we are not following up according to global standards all right can can you take us through because in the course of our conversation you have constantly mentioned the informal sector where you think that these elements are actually you know pushing this one through what could which what informal sector are we talking about now and the informal sector of cash based transactions cash based transaction I'll give you an example now right now Boko Haram controls or ISWA controls the fish market the smoked fish market in the chart you know at the red pepper market now they don't send their money to the bank they sell and they give that cash there are people that are actually buying and selling and of course the taxes that's another way of financing their activities the tax people and these taxes are being paid to them and this is not paid to the banks these are paid cash and as they collect the money physically they gather it up together either change it into dollars or use it to buy they will go around and maybe buy food buy food and there are people who sell their food you know and if you collect the money in cash and give them food which they use in going to do their own thing but what I am really worried about is tell those areas where they go out and buy taxes golds when you look at AK47 what's simple AK47 is about 400,000 lira one one so when they are buying it internationally from manufacturers and stuff like that yes there is the the dark market where people underground they can go and buy whatever they want to buy you know and then of course business is done in Bush-Hush but security agencies have also come to monitor that very particular environment where they do you know even with drugs where second movements are being made and of course if we use technology very well all these movements can be monitored it can be monitored either the movement of amps and ammunition or drugs or illegal money all that can be monitored but you have to go down to the dark cloud to do that all right Dennis I still think we should talk about some the role of the DSS in all of this I don't know how effective they have been would their intelligence when it comes to terrorism financing critically you know there's so much movement when it comes to small arms and weapons in Nigeria how do we begin to monitor this ensure a bit of control and sanity so that you know when these arms are bought or if they should even be bought you know would know what channel where they're coming from and who can be nabbed and all of that yes the DSS itself you know I think I'm doing very well because most of these things that are becoming coming to light now you know our intelligence that we gathered so far you know so they are doing their own but I think that they could do more they could do more and if they could do more it is the government that will sponsor them I don't want to the situation where we you know like as you know I think was doing when they were paying ransom instead of giving it to the security people and now they decided not to pay the ransom but the money are you giving it to the security people to use because they can use that to increase their capacity all right so we have you know just how many more days and to end this administration what would you think that the government of course security is a major consent for them what can this government do to remedy the fight against insorgency and of course the fight against terrorists in Nigeria I think the president has said it that he's not going to leave the office in disgrace and is not going to leave it you know just as it is now that means he's going to do something about it you know and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are going to do something about it because we are the security sector when the first came into power it was one of the pillars of which he came to power and then he has said it and of course they've done a lot because if they've not done a lot I can tell you what the book around you have overrun this country okay that is a reality although we would not be able to decimate them but a lot have been done but I would want more to be done by either recruitment recruit more security people police because the police is too thin you know we cannot continue having 400 policemen policing more than 200 million people you know so let's go ahead and have the police recruit more people equip them look at them you know their welfare same thing with the security agencies the dss because we need more more human intelligence and if you need more human intelligence that means you have to send it you have to send it more human more people into the field to gather that information or intelligence for you you know so even the military because when you talk about the whole security setup in Nigeria the army navy air force police efcc wherever dss and ia they're not up to two million the security system you know it's not up to two million and we are prosecuting a war and if we are going to prosecute this war effectively and they can even go ahead and post-credit people if they have to do it but again I think I don't think that's even the problem I think is the money because if you don't give out enough money to recruit people and which will take care of their salary uniforms and everything then you are you are not serious so I think I think the politicians should wake up and take care of this situation because 2023 is coming and instead of looking at this security problem and making sure that it is out of the way they are busy competing telling you who is going to be next president telling you who is going to be next chairman and all those kind of things as if as if they are not in this country it is something a patriotic call for people to first secure this country then we can talk about their political systems all right uh then is a mockery let's talk about some you know policies that have been put in place in Nigeria specifically uh sometime in july that's four months ago uh the central bank came out with a policy you know uh limited or banned you know the you know the cb uh the bdc's that's bureau de schange operators you know from transacting you know sale of um forex because we find that that sometimes that we've had in reports that uh these uh they get their their forex and financing from that particular you know parallel market no but over time now it's been four months you only think uh that has actually helped it has actually reduced maybe the financing um of there's some terrorists uh yes of course that is part of the informal sector that we're talking about that is a part of the informal sector because uh he you know the terrorists will go ahead and gather some diagram uh kidnap somebody uh 100 million and all those kind of things 10 million and this money they don't carry it around like that because of the bureau de schange and the bureau de schange people that's why i find out that the last two that were cost cost most of them were brought to change people you know and um uh the parallel market is well and alive and until cbl go ahead and marriage is two together whereby you can actually go out and buy from that parallel market at the cbl rate uh and then do your business because when they do that it gives them the opportunity to monitor who is buying or who is selling but if you allow the uh parallel market to be running on its own then what do you expect they will buy dollars because even the cbl come out to say that uh these two who should go ahead and lose source for their dollars if they are sourcing for their dollars they can source it anywhere anywhere and when they source it anywhere you are out of control of that dollar that they are sourcing it's simple it's simple logic so i think the cbl have to look at this if they are very very serious because that market is very like i can tell you very very like all right another issue right now would be uh kidnapping for ransom banditry and terrorism because uh from all that you have said that they uh this uh bandits this terrorist this um as well the boko haram they have too much money in their hands that's why they could go as much as uh you know dealing with term the b this is so basically it just goes to the fact that and the nation has not been able to tackle this issue of uh you know kidnapping for ransom what are your thoughts really yeah we've not been able to tackle it properly because we've not been able to follow it systematically you know we are still doing it in the fire brigade way and let's go through this somebody skip that what do you do you go and report to the security agencies or the police you know and then they call you they call you and they say they don't call the police and bring the social social amount and then of course um you don't have a quick response team i don't think the irt of the police are done very well the Boston so many kidnap cases even the army even the sss so now they do that but they are not enough they are not enough the number of people that are being kidnapped on a daily basis is more than can be handled by the irt so what do you do you follow it systematically because kidnapping is a low risk low risk adventure but high yield you know high yield uh uh profitably so you find out that uh to kidnap somebody is very very easy but the way you get the money the money is a lot of money so it is very very easy and Nigeria is fun enough we've had situations where even the uh uh children are arranging themselves to be kidnapped so that their father can give them money uh to do whatever things they want to do we've had cases where a girl arranged with her boyfriend to be kidnapped so that uh their father will bring money for the boyfriend to go overseas you know so all kinds of things do happen but if you are following it systematically i want to say systematically i'm talking about ransom payment ransom payment you don't give money to them to just take away you should be able to follow the money follow that money by tracking it you know make sure that it's not easy for them to just collect it and then go and spend it or send it to iswab you know because that money because look at it when they kidnap people and sometimes when the military go and post their camps they just collected about 50 million but you don't see a combo in that camp what does i tell you it tells you that money has been transmitted to somewhere else you know and it is moving around in this country we have checkpoints all over the place they are not seeing this money or maybe they are seeing it that they are being compromised to allow it to pass you know so these are these are fundamental issues that have been deviling our system and um i hope uh we'll have a rethink by actually sitting down and look at holistically look at our problem because uh you cannot solve what and then the rest will be solved at the same time discuss you have also mentioned the fact that you know the personnel is is a major consent for the fight against insurgents in nigeria looking at the entire force not uh you know making up to i mean meeting up the two million figure like you mentioned but some other you know peasants would say that religion is a major you know consent against the fight against insurgency because of some religious affiliation and what a view that's also a big problem and others are also saying that the issue of corruption because whether or not we want to agree you also look at the budget year in year out you find out that the military and defense would always take a huge chunk of the budget and some people say the corruption that is going on in the military is also affecting the fight against insurgency i'd like to share your thoughts on it do you agree with these peasants who are putting out this opinion yeah yes um the thing is that it's not actually even religion anymore in the beginning of Boko Haram when Boko Haram started it was religion but right now it's no more religion because Boko Haram kills christians they kill muslims you know the red mosques the red churches so it is no more religion but corruption yes you know we have a very corrupt system and we know it and that's why you know when you really break it down to the street level whereby uh people don't want to be streetlights you know and you do certain things and they say oh no it is Nigeria style oh this is Nigeria somebody said that to me about two days ago and i was really really angry with the person you know this is Nigeria i said what do you mean by this is Nigeria you know so you can't do the right thing because you feel that this is Nigeria so this is the problem we are having corruption yes it has eaten deep into our system and it lives with us right now because it has permeated everywhere where people feel that you cannot even get anything done properly if you don't teach somebody or something like that you know or you can commit a crime and then a policeman arrest you and then of course you you you you give him someone and they let you go you can't do those kind of things in some countries you try to bribe a policeman in the united states you are weak for it you know so these are the problems we have and they are fundamental all right all right we must say a very big thank you to you uh denny's a macro reformer assistant director of the dss thanks for sharing your thought and this particular discourse we do appreciate your time thank you very much for having me thank you all right it is still the breakfast and plus tv africa we'll take a quick break and we'll return you have guests join us to tap on uh the issue of bullying in our schools in a moment do join us again