 Hello, welcome to the Judge Ben show. My name is Ben Joseph. I'm a retired Vermont Superior Court judge. This is one of the series of interviews that I do with people concerning legal issues in Vermont. Today, my guest is Dr Catherine and Lee, who was an officer in the let's see the official title is the International Academy of the science and impact of cannabis. Cannabis is another word for marijuana. I think the people who've been pushing for the legalization of marijuana one have gone over to cannabis thinking that it will help them. I'm not quite sure why, but in any event, there have been a recent commercialization of marijuana sales in Vermont, and there was a by the statute that made it legal. There is a cannabis control board, which will make rules for the distribution and sale of the drug in Vermont. My guest today is going to talk about some of the things that are in consequence of the legalization. And I wanted to ask Catherine if you could tell us who will be on the cannabis control board, you know, Well, there are three people who are going to be making the law around cannabis in Vermont. The first one is James Pepper, P E P P E R. He's Deputy Deputy States Attorney for the Department of States Attorneys and Sheriffs or in the past he has been I guess. So I guess he's an attorney. He received his BA in political science from Johns Hopkins University he received his JD from the Vermont law school. They work with his wife. Let's say he met his wife while working for the Democratic National Committee in Washington DC. And then they decided to really locate and raise their family and Vermont. And they have twin boys and that's all from the website. And it doesn't say a whole lot more than that other than I guess he was active in the marijuana advisory committee and steering commission. He's the leader. Then we have someone Julie Hubbard. Julie has 20 years of experience in human resources, serving private and nonprofit and public organizations. She's worked in municipal government. She has leadership, city diversity, equity and inclusion goals. That's what her work was in. And then she's worked at, she has a BA from Northern Vermont University. And she holds a professional in human resources certification for the Human Resources Certification Institute. So that's that's great. And then there's the last person is Kyle Harris. He works from the Vermont Agency of Agriculture, food and markets that's a VAF M where he worked in agriculture development focusing on emerging issues and economic development. So those are the three people who are going to be making laws around this new drug that we for sale as a commodity in Vermont. Who appointed them. My understanding is it's the governor. Well, just just by way of background, could you explain what THC is. THC is the is the primary psychoactive component in cannabis. There are a number of other ones. THC gets you high CBD is something that has a different effect. THC is not psychoactive is anxiety, a litic. Both of them have interfere with a variety of drugs that Vermonters may be taking in other words they are an active metabolite metabolized primarily in the liver. It's a lidocrine P 50 P 450 method and therefore that interferes with a host of other drugs that especially elderly Vermonters, but any Vermonter may be taking in rats. The CBD is certainly associated with a hepatic toxicity. There are a number of other psychoactive components. There's one called THC eight or something like that and people are isolating that it's also psychoactive. People don't know a lot about it. So they're well the drugs really from a plant with 400 components, any one of which in Colorado are legal. But the THC is the one that is the most concerned to lawmakers I understand because it can affect people when they're driving, for example, is that right. Yeah, there may be others though. Okay, and what will there be anything that could be done by this new cannabis control board to control the amount of THC in marijuana sold in Vermont. So, there's a good and a bad story here. Vermont took a number of years to pass the marijuana commercialization law. And in that time legislators, enough legislators were educated that THC concentration is an issue THC is associated with psychosis. The more likely you are to have psychosis adults can can become psychotic and schizophrenic from the use of marijuana. The earlier you use the more often you use the more likely you are to experience a psychotic break. And if you have a psychotic break you have a, a significant percent chance of eventually developing schizophrenia. So for all those and there are other things too it's associated with suicidality. Of course, performance and in job and school are impacted. And importantly, if you increase the concentration of THC people become addicted or have become develop a use disorder with marijuana much more quickly if they have use very high potency THC. You know, crack cocaine as opposed to chewing on the coca leaf. And so that addiction hits your brain right away 15 minutes later it's gone and the impulses to get it again it feels so good so it's incredibly addictive. Before you know when we started talking about this in 2014 2015 the people who are actively proponents of high concentration THC said well you know it's more medicinal because you use less of it you're exposed to less of the harmful chemicals that lead and other contaminants that may be present in the marijuana. That in fact has not proven to be true people become addicted they use more. And that fits right into the, you know, commercial playbook because this is an industry industry as everyone who watches the science of prevent effective prevention knows this industry is really dedicated to creating people who have a use disorder. Those are the 20% of users who will consume 80% of their product. So the industry is interested in creating high potency THC and getting it into the hands of young people in any way they can preferably in candies associated with advertising through cartoons or any way that will you know attract children but it's harmful it's dangerous for all ages. Could the cannabis control board create rules for limiting the percentage of THC in products sold in Vermont. So Dr to one of the child psychiatrists in Vermont one of the leading child psychiatrist in Vermont also at the Department of Health has said, you know the Vermont first in the nation has put a first in the nation has put a cap on THC it's 30% THC for a flower and 60% for concentrates. The problem with that is it's like having a speed limit of 200 miles per hour. We have a speed limit, at least it's not speed limit less. And it's an acknowledgement that the legislators heard the testimony of the victims and the doctors who testified as this was happening that THC is a risk for psychosis is a risk for for mental illness and other dependency. So they, they put this limit, but the limit is is much too high. And so for example, all of the research that's done on this on on marijuana that's supposed to be used for any kind of, you know, presumed medicinal use has been done on, you know, five or 10% THC. So we have absolutely no in no information about medical information about THC, this 30%, which is now legal and well will be you know legal for sale in Vermont. And or 60% and the answer your question I guess yes they this these three people if if you know people in the audience and other people in Vermont were to spend a lot of time educating these guys. Three cannabis control board members that, you know, THC is a risk to youth but also all ages. They could put a limit the problem is that they, they're, if you know I would encourage the audience to go to their website and look at their, the different you know the different meetings that they're going to have it's open to the public. When you go there. And you attend a meeting you'll see half of the room is full of lobbyists. So these folks are hearing a lot of information from people who are being paid. You know, Judge Ben Joseph and I are both not being paid. And that's it to inform the time we try to inform the public, but these, you know, they're hearing a lot of information people are people who are being paid, and his industry is telling them we need high potency THC, in order to make a profit in Vermont straight up, they say that. And they've even it's, you know, they'll say on the record that if we can't have high potency THC, you know, this percent of our profits will be gone. Could there be rules that would limit the amount of THC and marijuana that's sold for recreational use. Yes, yes, I think that's true and I think that's important to pay attention to and it's important to limit the THC of marijuana that's also in medicinal. I think this is another, you know, conversation that needs to be happened. You know, if you want to I can take, we, I just, you know, as a day to digress a tiny bit. This is a really important topic, and I think part of the reason that you brought it up is we're having this discussion in Colorado, Colorado has recently over the last two years, looked at what what's happening you know why why are we having high potency THC in our state. Why is 50% why are 50% of the students who are marijuana users using high potency THC, which is a danger to them. So for the last two years they've been educated by doctors by victims and frankly, the legis members within the Senate and the legislature have been affected. So they've created laws that have then hurt the families of the members who created the laws in other words, there was no limit on THC. And so they they passed something that said, we're going to limit it to what's safe. And here in Vermont, we believe that, you know, 30 and 60% is not safe. So I can play. It's a two minute clip. Should I play the testimony from why don't you do that. We'll try to wrap up this section. So I also would like to speak in support of this bill today. As many of you know, I have a son who started smoking marijuana in the eighth grade, and then smoke marijuana consistently and persistently. He went through high school and at age 18, he has first psychotic break. And we did not know what the cause of that was, but during that time, before that happened, we have tried everything in our power to stop his marijuana use. We sent him to psychiatrists, to therapists, we grounded him, we drug tested him, we punished him, we praised him for the things that he did do. But we couldn't stop the use everywhere he went. This product was available and in greater and greater concentrations and potency. And after his first psychotic break, we, we sent him to a hospital where he spent six weeks and it cost us $60,000. And they didn't fix it. They couldn't fix it. Today he has schizoaffective disorder with co-occurring substance misuse and he will never recover. And our family is broken as a result and we will never be made whole. So let's not talk about him today because it's too late for him. Let's talk instead about your children and the thousands of other children that are being negatively impacted by the use of marijuana. It's a real thing. And let me just say that hundreds of parents, thousands of parents are being affected by this and we are done being blamed and shamed into silence. We will be silent no more. And this bill gives us a voice. It says, yeah, we have to look at this. This is on us. This is what we were sent here to do. And I urge you to vote yes. Representative Holtorf. Now that woman is in the legislature in Colorado. Yes. Yes. Well, that's a very powerful. Will there be warning labels on these products when they're sold? Will there be an effort in making it public that this is dangerous? I am. And so the warning labels are important. And what the warning, what they've decided in Vermont right now is that the cannabis control board, as I understand it, will make the warning labels. So humans resources, professional, a lawyer, and someone who's worked in agriculture and food markets. These are the people who are going to be making the warning labels with impact input from the Department of Vermont Department of Health. So that's a deviation from what it has been in the past. In the past, the medical marijuana, when it originally passed in Vermont a number of years ago, the warning labels were to be created by the Department of Health, full stop. And perhaps that presiding law or that settled law, as it happened in the past, should have been the method by which the warning labels are created for our recreational marijuana. Why they decided to have these three non medical professionals, you know, write this law, write the warning labels. I, you know, is a question that, you know, people might want to ask. The warning labels, well, the warning labels wouldn't, in effect, would limit the amount of product use of people. Yeah, I think that's, that's very important. I mean, when you pick up a cigarette, you know, that I'm, you know, this may cause cancer, it may cause heart disease. You know, use it, I may need maybe ask to go, you know, use it away from other people. When people pick up tobacco, you know, THC concentrates or, or flower. They should know they may develop psychosis. They may develop suicidality, unmanageable anxiety. Their schooling may end up having a much lower, you know, final result result from what it would have been. And if they use consistently and persistently for many years, it's, there's evidence that it probably decreases IQ in those people. So, so I, yeah, I agree with you 100%. People should know my people should be informed. There should be no question that that these are the risks of using marijuana and that's not what's happening right now in the United States or in or in Vermont. And I think that, you know, I think that it's a real lesson for Vermont that in Colorado, after all these years, since 2014 or 2000, 2000, whenever they made medical marijuana available in Colorado. Now they're having to revisit that because they have so many kids and, and adults. It's not just kids who are who are developing, you know, psychosis and mental illness associated with their and addiction quite frankly, use disorders associated with their use. And now they're trying to backtrack. So, in Vermont, you know, one thing that we could easily do is say, look, we need to limit a 15%. And if people want to call the cannabis control board and say, look, I've done research on this and 15% is is a lot of very concentrated THC. If you used in the 80s or 90s up until 2000, you didn't ever probably encounter a THC of 15%. What's really happened since commercialization in Colorado is that we have created the industry has created a drug. It's not the drug. It's not grass. It's not pot. It's not weed. It's a concentrate. It's a, it's a drug. It's a, it's a distilled form. The cannabis cup this year I'm told went to a crystalline, a clear, it's a clear drug, and nearly 100% THC, you know, high 90s THC levels. No one is prepared for that. We know nothing about it. The evidence that we do have is on five or 10% THC. And we're giving it in such a way that it's getting into the hands of our own children who are then developing, you know, mental illnesses and and have suffering the consequences. It's really an incredible story. If it weren't actually happening, you almost wouldn't believe it. There was no more testimony in Colorado. I mean, that was one individuals, but there were, I think 200 people who testified, and many, you know, schools who testified about the number of children who were coming, who were using 50% of the kids in Colorado who use marijuana use concentrates. Well, Catherine, I want to thank you very much. You know, this is, this isn't over. I'm sure we're going to have, we're going to have to talk about this again, as things, as things transpire. It just what, what else could be done to limit the harm caused by the increased use of the drug. Well, I think that one thing that's very important is the one lesson learned from Colorado is if you if you review what's happened recently over the last two or three weeks, and the passage of this bill, this bill by the way that seeks to eventually limit the THC in marijuana in Colorado passed unanimously in the house in the Senate. That's how gut wrenching the testimony was and how the individual families of the senators and representatives are being affected. It passed unanimously and the governor signed the bill. So, I think that one thing that people can do is to to certainly to educate themselves and to contact the people on the cannabis control board. But the other thing that I think is really important is that many people got up and said we couldn't have passed this without the industry saying it's okay. That's the level of control that the industry apparently has over the house and Senate in in Colorado. Right now, you know, hopefully we're not in that situation. And so if there are things that we can do to create a law in Vermont that doesn't give that much power and influence to the industry over our legislature and our government. Then we will be able to make this a more healthy product. Okay, I want to thank you very much for coming in today. I'm sure we're going to have conversations again as time goes on. I want to thank you very much and keep up the good work. Thank you.