 To learn about building communities in open source, you should join us in room C1. Y'all can move forward. They told me that I can't bite people at this conference so everyone should be safe. I've also got on my mask. They gave us a big room. I'm totally kidding. Or you can say it. You guys took off your mask? Nobody told me we could take off your mask. Well, that's why we didn't want to show the microphones. I'm sitting here like, hi, everyone. That's probably a little clearer that way. Which one? I think it works all right. Yeah? It's okay. It's the hallway trap, but bring it inside the room. So when I was a kid, I wanted to tell a story because it's related to this, like what I'm doing, right? I had a choir teacher who was not always super nice, but I like people. Clearly that's why I'm a developer advocate. And she's like, Taryn, if you were alone in a forest and there was just a stump to talk to you, you would talk to the stump to keep it company. And at first I was upset and I was like, actually that's true. Well, there's like slugs and mushrooms and squirrels in that stump. See? They'd probably be like, ah. Ready to record? Over-recording this? Hello. So before we begin talking about all that, I thought it would be a good idea for us to introduce ourselves and talk about what community we're a part of and our impact in the community that we are part of and also our impact in the greater community. So Matt, do you wanna start and we'll just work this way? Sure. My name's Matthew Cheney. I work at Pantheon and I previously worked at chapter three and I've been doing, this is my 33rd DrupalCon, which I think is quite a few. And it's really been interesting over the last, pretty much my entire adult life to try to like work an open source, both as kind of a developer and but also in terms of doing event organizing through like local meetups, through conferences, through I helped to organize the DrupalCon in 2010 in San Francisco. And I think a lot of kind of the impact that I see in these activities are often very, sort of amplifies the energy people have that an event like this brings people together, allows them to then take that kind of passion and knowledge and then they can go back to their communities and sort of like influence the people that are around them. And that's just something I sort of, in terms of my view of it stuff I'd like to talk about today. It's just that even, 1,000 people here, 12,000 people here is excellent, but if those people all know two or three other people, the impact everything we do is amplified. And that's I think really, really cool. And then Amy, Jim, do you want me to just talk about like my Drupal communities or like another community I organize outside of that too? It's up to you. Cool. Okay, well hi y'all. My name's Taryn Allman-Dars. I am a developer advocate at Pantheon. I am also currently the lead of the Drupal Diversity and Inclusion Initiative, Drupal Diversity and Inclusion Initiative. There's a lot of, and that sounds all together. I have been doing that for about two years. I'm actually gonna step back in December to grow other leaders and let them step into that. And outside of that volunteering, I'm actually a member of the board of the Texas Organizing Project and we do community organizing in the state of Texas. So I like bringing people together and growing them. My name's Ruth Cheesney. I work at Acrea as Project Lead for Mortic, which is an open source marketing automation platform. I've been involved in open source, probably about 18 years, which makes me feel extremely old. I started out my life in the Joomla community, but don't kick me out. I was on the community leadership team for several years and involved in starting up the marketing working group and supporting user groups and things like that. So I've always been drawn to community. Like you, I also run communities outside of work. So I'm part of the Buddhist Center in my local area and I support that and yeah, various other communities. So and the impact I think, certainly in the Joomla community, kind of encouraging people to set up meetups in person when we were allowed to do such things and really helped to grow the communities in those regions. That's why I started a user group myself. And yeah, in Mortic, we're a quite a new community and so setting up a community with the culture and the values that I want to see in a community and being the one that's sort of responsible for setting that bar and keeping it there is quite a challenge, but it's also quite good because you get to decide what that it looks like, so yeah. Cool. My name is Amy Jin and I work at opensource.com right now and I'm the community manager for our editorial team. So I solicit articles and I keep people happy working on the editorial team. In the Drupal community, I help with the Drupal mentoring group. Unlike Ruth, I did not build the communities. I step in as a community manager that communities that have always already been built. It's a different sort of challenge. The impact for me on opensource.com and I didn't leave Drupal, I'm still in Drupal, but for me, I have the privilege of opensource.com and community management that I can promote Drupal and the projects I'm really supportive of. And so for me, my impact as community manager is really amplifying all open source projects which I feel very privileged to do. I want to ask Ruth the first question because as she mentioned, and I don't know if you folks stepped into your communities or built your communities, but Ruth mentioned that she built the communities. Do you have any practical tips for starting a community? And how did you grow that community? Yeah, well, I mean with Maltic, there was a loosely bounded group of people who were trying to contribute, but there was no clarity on how they could actually get involved or what the process is for them to get involved. So I think that was probably the most important thing was making it clear that you want to build a community around a product or in a center or whatever and that there are opportunities for people to actually step up and do stuff because a lot of the time, either you're getting all the stuff done and they don't realize that you actually practically dying on the side because you're so busy or they feel like they could help, but they just don't know how to help. And so making it really explicitly clear is really important, but then also setting the expectations of what your community is going to be like from a cultural standpoint. I think that's also really important. So for communities that are already built, how do you gauge if your community is an audience versus engaged as a developer advocate? How do you measure that? How do you measure whether or not people are engaged or just being an audience? And how do you move one from another? I feel like looking at it from the developer advocacy point of view, my position is part of the developer relations team as well. And it's one thing to put content out there, right? And sometimes people come into your Slack and they'll like it or you'll pull the tweet out into the either and you'll see that it's there and maybe it got some retweets. We use some tools at Pantheon to be able to measure that engagement. We're using OrbitLove and so that's been really great to be able to check into that, but it is essential to understand if you're just creating products to be consumed or experiences to be consumed. Putting on my hat of being in the Drupal Diversity and Inclusion Initiative, we recognized actually this summer that we had a lot of audience inspecting going on. We have meetings that we do, at first it was every single Thursday and then it was every other Thursday, but we would get some notes sometimes saying, hey, thanks for doing the meeting, but when we were actually running the meeting live, they were like crickets. And so there's kind of to talk about what you did, Ruth. There's work that needs to be done and everybody kind of assumes that it's gonna get done and everyone's watching to see if it is done. So measuring the volume of the conversations, if it's just a one way thing, I feel like that's a pretty good sign that you've got an audience situation going on. What about you, Matt? Yeah, I think something I've found really interesting in sort of working in communities is that you really have both sort of an internal audience, which are the people who are active participants in that community and then you have an external audience where the people that attend your events use your software or otherwise sort of are kind of consumers of the activities of that group. And that in both ways I feel like you can have really great impact on either side. Like I've been part of plenty of kind of activist kind of communities where what you're really doing is you're trying to have some effect in the outside world, maybe trying to like help climate change or somebody's larger issues. And you have some effect on that issue, but the impact that I actually see most prominently is actually on the participants themselves that being able to like engage with other people who are really passionate about a certain topic, like open source like Drupal is excellent because it really ramps you up too. I certainly felt like often development can be kind of solitary, even in working in a company or in a larger organization, you're often by yourself with your computer, writing code or engaging. And when you're able to be around people that share the same passion you were sharing by yourself, it really amps you up. And it's an experience every Drupal con coming back from it or even near the end. It's just so exciting because all of these things that maybe I had like read on Twitter or seen in blogs or tried out in software, suddenly are things that other people really like too and are caring and talking to me about and I always come back really motivated. And I think that's an important part of the sort of community organizing along with actually just what actually ends up happening for the other people. Yeah, so at opensource.com we have a community but we also have like a core community that we manage. We have those like an incentive program, right? Because we want not just the one article but the continued participation. And so we have these like for lack of a better word like rewards programs. You write 10 articles and you get these perks or you write three articles and we send you some swag. But there's also all the little things that come along with it. There's the engagement in forums. There's the engagement in the community. There's engagement in speaking. I know that we have tools that measure engagements which helps because we give incentives. So do you have like incentivized programs to keep with the continued contributions versus the singular contributions and how do you measure that? I know for Pantheon and just to let y'all know I'm speaking on behalf of the community side of our team. Unfortunately, they were not able to make it here if y'all would like to contact them for more details about it. That's gonna be Katie Reed and Viva Fam. We have our Heroes Advocacy Program. It was started in 2016. Amy June is actually one of our heroes. But that is a way to, can you ask the question again? My ADHD took over. That's fine. So if you run an incentivized program like what kind of tools and what kind of engagements do you track? Yeah. We are tracking how people are, there's missions right that y'all take part in. Those are actions that we want our heroes to do like writing blog posts, giving some talks at conferences, talking to people about Pantheon, right? It's one thing. If me, Taryn comes up to you and is like, yeah, Pantheon's amazing. And it's a whole other thing. If you've got some of this using that product and service on a day-to-day basis talking about it. Being able to see to if our heroes are engaging with the missions that we send out, that's a good sign of is this an actually great program for them to be a part of? Or is this something that like we're tuning our own horn? That's what I could say about the heroes program. Do you track like and like, how do you value their contributions? Is there a tracking system? Yes. I've been involved with helping them set up the orbit integration system. That's what I'm most familiar with. And to explain the orbit system as succinctly as I can, there is a love score, which exists. And that tells you, hey, this person is looking at the content, engaging with it on a kind of I'm viewing this level as, and it also combines with the reach of that person to determine their orbit level and their gravity. And it lets you know about, for this person who is engaging with your community, what is the level of impact that they can have in growing your community? I realized as other folks were answering, when a good way I've seen to recognize whether or not you have an audience too, is if an audience versus a community, if you are the one that's putting out most of the information about your community, then you've got an audience. But once the people who are in your community are also contributing and engaging, that to me is when you have a true mark of community. So tools like orbit will help with that. I know, Ruth, you use Savannah. Yeah. And you've given some talks on Savannah, which I use Savannah in a very limited way to track contributions. I'm interested in hearing like, what do you pull into Savannah? And like, what are the reasons? Like, I guess what I'm wondering is, you know, do you find tracking in a CRM valuable to how you run your community? Yeah, I mean, it's very helpful. We haven't got to the point really where we're doing like you do with the rewards and the incentives individually. I wanna get to that point, but we need both funding and capacity to do that, which we don't have. But what we do use, so we track the traditional code stuff. So GitHub, pull request being created. We track things like people's answers on our forums being marked as a solution, as a contribution. We also track Reddit, Stack Overflow, things like that, where people are helping in places that are not like our community. They're out there, but they're still helping people. And also things like we use the API to track when someone reviews a pull request, because that's really a contribution as well. It helps us to merge that pull request. And when someone works on a Jira issue, because not all of our projects are actually in GitHub because they're marketing or they're documentation or whatever. So we also do that. But what we have used it for is incentivizing organizations to support their staff to contribute. So a bit like what Dries was talking about in the keynote about, I think it was Dries, about free time and encouraging more sustainability. Anyone who wants to become a partner, community partner in Maltic, they have to show sustained contribution from their employees. And that can either be answering questions on the forums, it can be giving contributions, it can be anything. And so we actually use that to look at eligibility for partnership, which comes with a whole bunch of perks. So we're sort of focusing at the organization level rather than the individual level at this time. Okay. And then Matt, you run like community, like communities of volunteers when you do camp organization. How do you manage to have continual engagement year to year from the same volunteer group? And what do you do when those volunteers drop out? Yeah, I think especially organizing in an open source context, I think is really unique because you have a lot of very talented people who have very marketable skills in terms of development time, project management time, design time, and getting those people to like, want to spend hours of their time that could otherwise be billed to their customers or working at their organizations, is it's sort of an expensive ask to someone. And I think the two sort of insights I would share here is one, to understand that people contribute and be part of running an event for a lot of different reasons. Some people really enjoy the social connections that they make, make friends, make, you know, have interactive time. Some people like the professional development of making relationships with companies. People like learning new skills. If you're used to doing one kind of thing and you volunteer, you actually can often learn really new stuff. And you know, just trying to kind of meet people where they are on that. Like, if you want, if someone comes in, try to like, you know, specifically like doing a sort of open source conference, trying to talk to people who are coming in for the first time and having sort of, a number of times we'd run sessions for like, you know, hey, we're starting this conference this year. Everybody who wants to help, please come and we'll do like a first meeting where maybe you have some food, maybe you will have some conversation. But the big question is sort of like, why are you here? And sort of what do you want to get out of that? And people don't always know, but like just kind of getting and trying to make mental notes as sort of an organizer or a lead organizer, co-lead organizer. You know, if someone's looking to like, you know, get like, networked with other people, you know, maybe they could help run sponsorships for your, for your camp. Someone's looking to learn, you know, to like continue to like use their technical skills. Maybe they can help build the website. Maybe if someone's very into social stuff, they can help to organize the party and try to like slot people in on that. The second insight is how to answer your question in terms of continuity is I think one really good tip for event organizing, community organizing is never let anyone do something alone. Always have one or two people that are part of it because it A allows, first of all, it's just more fun to do it with other people. Two, having that redundancy is helpful in case someone does like, you know, can't participate or has to kind of change situations. But it's also something which lowers the barrier of participation because there's already someone who's kind of like, you know, already knows how to do sponsorships. It's easy to kind of be like, oh, I'll help that person, you know, sort of as an understudy or someone who's like a helper. But then they of course learn the skill set and then the next year or subsequent years, they can kind of keep doing it. And I would say that's in terms of continuity, people always have different life changes. People have changed jobs, changed geographies. But if you have multiple people doing something, it's easier to get people contribute to there and it's easier to keep continuity year to year. You're also building leadership too because you're allowing a graceful way to step down, having that buddy system and redundancy. And this can be for all of us. I know that when I first got into tech, I struggled with maybe participation on a larger level. I helped that do bad camp, but on a larger level because I would look at organizational teams and I wouldn't see anyone who quite fit my role or fit what I look like or fit my values and goals. So how do we address the diversity of our community? How do we recruit people who may not have know about like, so how do we address diversity inclusion in our communities? Sounds like a question for me. So to give you all some context, I've been part of the Drupal community since 2017, 18. My first DrupalCon that I went to was Baltimore and I had been doing Drupal by myself as a front-end developer on a very small team for a local government. My senior developer had convinced me that Git was resource intensive and we didn't need it. So and if you don't know, that is a lie, I did not know, but there were people in the Drupal community that let me know. And part of the reason why I have been in the diversity and inclusion group is because there was this sense of belonging that was created, not just for me, but it felt like it was created for me for folks that might not be able to see this. I am an African-American, cisgender woman and a lot of the people at that DrupalCon did not look like me, but I could sense that there was a place for me and I think that that is the first step of building diversity and inclusion intentionally. I'm trying to think of this as I'm sitting here. Oftentimes when we're building a community, we think of who it is for. Sometimes that's in the context of what is the goal that we want to achieve? And if, for example, I wanna have a Barbie collector's community, right? I'm thinking of here's this specific brand of dolls that I want people to come in and do and I don't think about the experience it is that I want to create. In doing that at times though, it's the Barbie community, right? But by doing that, we're also saying who this community is not for. And there are actions that we can take when building our community that communicates that without us saying it. And I think that when we are building our communities, recognizing who we're building it for and who it excludes and addressing that intentionally will help us to be able to create more diversity and inclusion. Seeing when you're making this group, hey, this person might not feel welcome. So that's my thought on that. I would love to hear what other people think, because yes. I know for mentoring when I first got into Drupal, I'm a non-coder. I don't have any interest in code, but I have interest in moving the Drupal project forward. And so for mentoring, for me, I started at the local regional level and I would give workshops, first-time contributor workshops that were a lot different than the national level. And I'm talking about diversity of thought and diversity of skill level here. I would go to these national workshops and I would not be able to walk away with a contribution because I did not know how to put a local environment on my machine, period. I would cry, I would have tears, and I would never make it to the next space. So I decided as a non-coder, how do I present, because I want to be part of the community. I want my name on that maintainers.txt file. I want to be a contributor to Drupal. So how do I create a space for non-coder? So at the local and regional level, I made an effort to change the way we did mentoring. We talked about the non-code contributions and then we talked about the code contributions that you could do that weren't code. So someone like a project manager or your human resource person could come in and be like, okay, here's Amy June who does an encoder. Here's the step-by-step thing of how do you write a patch without having a local environment, without having to know code? So let's do a read me and just use get. So for me, it was those small steps of lowering that barrier of you don't have to have a local environment. I know that sounds really kind of reductive, but we grew the community of contributors. And now we have more people at that national level too, because the way we teach our workshops isn't like you only have to know code, you have to have DDEV installed. No, you can come in and you can work on documentation. You can work on community management. You can like host a camp and all that kind of stuff. And so that's how we addressed the diversity of thought and experience and code contributions. And then just to step back a little bit and talk about opensource.com, we have a lot of writers who are North American or white. So when I started, I was like, how do I have different? We can have an article on the same topic from 50 points of view, but you need to solicit that point of view. And so when I first came on at opensource.com, I had to be deliberate. And instead of just coming to DrupalCon North America or DrupalCon Europe, I reached out to the open source summit in Nigeria and I asked people to write articles. They're not coders or they haven't been coders very long, but they're from a different community. So they have a different point of view from that software, but it was the deliberacy. I had to be deliberate in asking these folks, but because they come from those excluded communities, they were more than happy because they'd never been asked before. So sometimes that building of diversity of thought or diversity of voice or diversity of body, whatever you want to think about is like that deliberacy of asking someone to do that. Yeah, I've definitely find it helpful in the multi-community. We have a community handbook and we have a section which is about contributing. And we've literally just listed out all the possible ways that we think that someone might want to contribute, even if we have no one contributing with those skills at this time. And we've given links like this is how you find a filtered list of on Jira of all the design tasks that we've tagged that are good for a beginner or good for someone who's new to the project. And this is the step that you go through to start working on these issues. And this is how you contact the team. Not a lot of them, we don't have anyone with those skills right now, but there may well be people who come along and they're like, well, how do I contribute to multi-Google? They come to that page and at least they see something roughly along the lines of what they're, so it's almost like you're saying like, please help us with these things. It's not a personal invitation, but it's a, these are the things you could help us with. And it's proactive versus reactive. Yeah. You have the space for them, for when they're ready to join versus someone coming in and not finding a space. Yeah, yeah, but there's probably spaces that are missing and that's just because I haven't thought about it yet. Yeah, I would just definitely echo that in terms of like having multiple kinds of spaces for people to participate in, that if you're organizing an event, it might be fun to have happy hours and maybe those are good, but those don't necessarily appeal to everyone because there's drinking, because there's a lot of noise, crowded areas. So doing other events that are maybe more quiet that like offer kind of alternatives gives people more times to plug in or some people don't necessarily want to come out in person. So having a virtual space along with these other spaces gives kind of more access points for people to participate and ultimately help. And I think just sort of varying what you're doing, trying to have different ways for people to come in and just sort of doing the stuff that works on a consistent basis, but always be comfortable to try some new way or a new approach to community organizing because that will attract different kinds of people that bring in different kinds of voices. Just do the same thing and just get the same people. To piggyback off of what Matt, I know what Matt was just saying, one thing that we've been intentional about in the Diversity and Inclusion Initiative the last couple of years is making the spaces for the people who don't feel like they want to go out partying at DrupalCon, right? We sponsored a board game night the last two years at the last two DrupalCons and we've been doing our own camp for the last two years, DDI camp, and while folks are returning to in-person activities right now, right? There are a lot of people who still don't feel comfortable coming out. And we intentionally made DDI camp a virtual camp that people could participate in, people from anywhere across the world could participate in. And it's been rewarding seeing the people who would otherwise be left out of this kind of experience being able to participate. I could gush about it forever, but it's been great. And I applaud that because I think me and Matt work on the San Francisco Drupal community together and we do San Francisco Drupal users group. And when we went virtual, it lowered that geographic barrier which was so important because people don't always have the privilege of coming out to San Francisco because it's on rush hour or they don't have the privilege of coming to bad camp because it's in California and it's expensive. And so I think that lowering that geographical barrier is super important too, yeah. One of our most popular mottic meetup groups is in Lagos in Nigeria and they started that group right literally the week before lockdown, they had their meetup planned and Facebook pulled the venue. They said, no, we're not doing meetups anymore. So since it started, it's always been virtual. And because of that, people from all over the world come along and we have speakers from Nigeria but loads of people are coming and they've also had speakers from the global community. And we've decided to make our world conference always virtual because of that. Because there's people who can't afford to, like we've had people who literally can't get visas despite trying, but having the world conference online means it's like open and accessible to everyone. And then we have an in-person conference but we're moving continents every year. So it's not like it's just in America and just in Europe. So next November we're in Brazil and we've had Europe and Brazil so next time we're gonna be somewhere else. That's sort of how we're trying to work around some of these challenges because, yeah, we had so many people join us online for our event. It was great. Yeah. So as a community manager, we're community leaders in a way. How do we set the values and cultures of a community as community managers? And then as our community grows, natural leaders step up that we manage. How do you enforce culture and values? What do you do with bad seeds? What do you do with those contributions that you don't want? Because, yes, we wanna build a community but there's also that aspect of not everyone fits in your community. Codes of conduct are critical. One of the worst things that we can do when growing a community and it's also against diversity and inclusion is to just assume that everybody will know what the norms are. A thing that might be okay for me to do when I'm hanging out with Matt, Ruth doesn't know me. I might make her uncomfortable. There was one place that I went to where the culture was you hugged everybody when you first came in, whether you knew them or not because everybody was friendly and I'm a generally friendly person but I found myself being like whoa, I don't know you, this is kind of odd. It helps us to be able to set a boundary so we all know what the rules of engagement are, what passes as acceptable behavior and what is not and putting that out that explicitly also allows your community to give you that feedback with it. I'm gonna step back because I lost the rest of my thought. I think also alongside the code of conduct you have to be explicit about what you do in the event of people breaching that because if your code of conduct doesn't have clarity on what the processes are, how that's dealt with, what if there's a complaint against the project lead or against the leaders, who are the people who are in the code of conduct team or whatever, you might as well not have a code of conduct because as soon as someone pushes the boundaries of that code of conduct as a leader you have to take action. And we've had to refine our code of conduct over time as people have been like exploring the gray areas, shall we say? I'm sure we all know those people. And yeah, we've had to take, there's been some cases where it's very clearly an immediate ban, like spam, scamming, anything like that, you're out. But we've also had cases where someone's behaved inappropriately, they've been warned, they've been through that process and they've done it again and it's like, well, now we take action. Like the first step is you have to verbally apologize but the next step is that you're out. You're out for a period of time and then we go through a process to bring you back in. I think that's quite important and I think it's important that the leaders are, leaders should be held to that standard and higher but also you're confident to enforce that. I also think in terms of dealing with a lot of those issues is sort of proactively trying to think about the problems that can happen and then figure out generic solutions that aren't about a particular person or specific set of facts, talk to other event organizers or other people running communities because a lot of these problems are the same in different kinds of places. And then yeah, to sort of the point of getting it written down in a way you can refer to it later and that this is the record of what we all agreed to without specifics and so then when something does come up the people can really highlight that. And to be clear, like the code of conduct isn't about just meet space. It's not just about being in person. It's about interactions in the code. It's about interactions in your communication tools. It's interactions in your forums. And I think being very specific about where the code of conduct applies because I think some folks might think they're outside of those areas and I think reminding folks that it does apply like gatekeeping knowledge is something that we have sometimes in coding communities where someone will say something that's reductive to a new person coming in and that's just as detrimental to a community when you're gatekeeping knowledge or you're treating them in a way that does not make them feel as important as they should because all code contributions are important, right? So what I found is over time that the community actually started to step in and self-moderate people who were being assholes basically but on the gray areas they weren't completely breaking the code of conduct but they were just being really obnoxious or rude or being responding in ways that just weren't helpful. And instead of me having to step in every time as the leader, people in the community are like, hey, this isn't the kind of behavior that we wanna see in this community, you know? Step out, take a breath, go away from the computer and come back. And I think that's really helpful as well when people really do value the values that you put in place and they can then help you in enforcing. To speak to what you were about, somebody might violate a boundary, right? Or an agreement of how we say that we're gonna be together but if our response is equally, if not more toxic, that can also be a violation, right? And I know, speaking on this because diversion and inclusion, it is a very tempting thing to do to try to cancel a person for doing a bad thing, right? But if you've got a community and you've got a group of people that are okay with the behavior, right? You cancel the person, you kick the person out but if you haven't addressed the behavior, the behavior will perpetuate. And I think that making sure that we're addressing behaviors and making that known, and I think like you were saying earlier, modeling that ourselves as leaders of the community that will spread into other folks in the community and it will become clear that it's not about that person, it's about the behavior and it can be all of us. I'm sure there have been plenty of times that I have been problematic as well. And it's important for people to hold me to account just like they are expected to hold each other, so. So we run volunteer programs, you know? We have contributors who have the privilege of time to contribute to our communities. What do we do when we see an active member of our community starting to lack engagement? Do you have any strategies to help them with burnout or let them know like this is okay? What strategies do you have to keep your leaders as leaders or, you know, continued contributions? One of the things that I like to make sure to do is write our volunteers are volunteers but first and foremost, they are human beings. Amy Joon and I are friends outside of this, right? And there's work that we do together in building community and there's just the fact that just this week, Amy Joon said, hey, Taryn, how are you doing? And I was like, oh, well, I'm doing this decision. She said, no, I asked how you were doing and her acknowledging my humanity let me to be able to evaluate like, am I doing too much? Am I burning out? But seeing who your volunteers are as people and checking in with them before the work first, I feel like that has mitigated burnout situations for so many people in the communities that I serve and I feel like that's a really big first step. So this is really cheesy but I use postcards. Like I have these people who are continuing, you know, engaging but then I don't see them engage for a couple of months or they're not writing an article or they're not coming to our weekly meetings or they're not participating in the forums and I don't wanna like bug them and like feel like they're obligated to commit but I'll send them a postcard from where I was. I went to Colorado, here's this postcard and it generally, that human touch makes them feel good and then guess what? It's kind of a tactic because within a couple of days or a week, I get an article. So it's that human part of it too, I think that's important, you know. But we also let our correspondents know because we run on a yearly program or we have a fast track program that you know what, you didn't make those 10 articles or you didn't make those 20 engagements to have this extra perks but you know what, we have this fast track program. This is how you can get in it sooner than the next cycle year and you're welcome to come back. We always have that, it's okay, you can take a break, we know that life happens, the pandemic is really hard, you're raising your children, come back when you're ready and really having that personal touch, I think allows them the opportunity to not burn out, step back and know that they're welcome to come back. Yeah, I'd also share that like thanking people and sort of like grounding your thanks and kind of why we're all volunteering working on something is really motivating. But you know, burnout is super real, there's a real tension between feeling responsible for getting something done and then feeling overwhelmed by those responsibilities but realizing that like even a little bit sort of moves us in the direction we're all trying to go. And if you do see people that maybe aren't as engaged sending a note, thanking them for something that happened in the past, reminding them of a positive thing but also being totally understanding things do happen but at the same time, hey, let's just celebrate something that was positive in the past and sometimes that motivates them to wanna do more positive in the future. Sometimes they just go ahead and share something that's sort of on their mind and that can start a conversation but I think it's just really important to realize we're all kind of in it together especially in a volunteer context we're all trying to do something, it's okay if it's not perfect because it's way better than not doing it at all. And you know, the more you get that kind of in your mind I think happier and more virtuous the process is. So we kind of ran our time and I didn't pay attention to the time to allow for Q and A. So can we all share some ways that we can get a whole, people can get a hold of us to ask us more questions about our specific tools or communities? Yep, so a couple of them, right? If you'd like to get in touch with the Pantheon community team and the DevRel, DevAdvocacy teams, we're on Twitter at getpantheon, that's G-E-T-P-A-N-T-H-E-O-N. If you'd like to get a hold of me in the Drupal Diversity and Inclusion Initiative, Drupal Diversity and Inclusion on Twitter is at Drupal Diversity and for me I'm at T-E-A-R-Y-N-E-G as in George. So I'm Volkswagen Chick on most of the spaces and then opensource.com if you just go to the Contact Us page. And then for mentoring, if you wanna witness an example or just sort of look at how we've run our mentoring program in the Drupal Slack channel, there's a mentoring channel and just watching how we engage with our volunteer mentors, I think is a pretty handy tool. Yeah, I'm at Chesley pretty much everywhere, our C-H-W-S-L-E-Y. Contact me on Twitter, LinkedIn, wherever, or email, at accu.com. I'm Matthew Cheney, I have a website. And an email. I'm not that big on social media. If you all wanna email me, I'm happy to write back. I really do enjoy that kind of long form correspondence. Yeah, so we're at time and we have closing ceremonies, so thank you for coming in to the group. Thank you so much.