 Bring that forward some Greg That's you guys booked everywhere you Okay goes ready. Yep. Yep. Here we go I'm Scott Rouse my body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation body language And I don't know I get to giggle What do they call that mark corp sing corp sing for no reason there's nothing down I'm Scott Rouse my body language expert and analyst and a true I'm Scott Rouse I'm Scott Rouse Make you laugh it out. That's how you do it when you're on stage is when you're rehearsing just laugh it out So is my dog. Yeah I'm Scott Rouse my body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation body language And I created the number one online body language course body language tactics calm with Greg Hartley mark I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language help people all over the world to stand out win trust gain credibility Every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the G7 chase I'm chase Hughes a behavioral expert in 20 years in the US military Now I teach intelligence agencies and the general public in persuasion interrogation and behavioral profiling Greg Greg Hartley. I'm a former army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor I've written 10 books on body language and behavior also put together this number one online body language course with Scott body language Tactics calm and I spend most of my time on Wall Street or in corporate America All right. Well today. We're going to talk about Chris Watts he's the guy that's in prison right now for killing his pregnant wife and his two little daughters and This has been one that the panelists have been asking for right and left We've got a whole lot of requests to do this So that's why we're going to do it and go ahead and subscribe now that you're here We're just we're firing up go ahead and hit subscribe that way, you'll know when we have a new show come out All right, you guys ready? Joe, let's go Chris Watts WATTS What's going on right now right now it's got canine units the sheriff's apartment Everybody's like they're they're doing the best right now to figure out like if they can get a scent See where they went they went on foot. They went in a car. They went somewhere And right now it's just like they've they've been on point. They're going through the house trying to get a scent And hopefully they can pick something up to where it's it's gonna lead to something Mark what do you got? Yeah, so look obviously we know that he committed the crime. He's doing time for this he You know, we know that so what is the point of watching a video like this? Well, I think the interesting thing is for you is You'll see examples of these type of videos come up a great deal Well, somebody goes to the media and says hey, you know find these people and you'll often look at those and go Hang on is is something going on here. Why don't we give you some of the things that we can see that may well Indicate what was going on at the time? What do we got? He does an eyebrow raise on his own name now That's not an indicator of somebody lying, but it's kind of interesting that saying his own name He what he already wants some buy-in on something which is total fact at this point We know this is Chris Watts the interviewer knows it's Chris Watts. Why that moment of? Recognition of buying so notable there He's already Bound up here. We can already see he's bound up He there's no way his hands are coming away at the moment to do any kind of Descriptor and we've already got this pacifier gesture or movement of the kind of side-to-side stuff that's going on already So already quite Notable what's going on there eyebrow raised at the end there on to something So he wants some kind of buy-in on the idea of of something, but he's not naming any of the possibilities at this point Early days in this interview, but I think already some most notable elements Most notable for me is the raise of the eyebrows on his own name Scott. What do you got? We see that really strong eye contact just right out of the gate like you said mark his arms already crosses already in that adapter phase of Holding on to himself. He's doing what the Greg and I refer to As romance or there's a thing we've that we've come up with that that's called strip And that's where it's we have The ways that a person being deceptive will engage with the person that's asking the questions or the person they're talking to And strip stands for stancer transfer romance or Insulator and prancer and in this case it won't go through all the definitions of them But in this case we're seeing what's called the romance or that's where they Dead-eye within it was like, yeah, they're they lock eyes with you and they pay attention. They're close They're right on you as they're talking to you so they can make sure you believe what they're saying And if anything looks even just a little bit of a hint of wrong they can start adding a qualifiers to that He doesn't start his swaying until he says to see where they went And that's when he's talking about the dogs and the and the cops So that's when he starts to sort the swaying now here in the beginning we you if you just saw this at the beginning You haven't seen the full in Interview then you couldn't say ah, that's a that shows deception because we don't know it yet They could be part of his baseline as you go along so until you have all that information Which we'll have by the end of this we can't say that is as indicative of someone being this deceptive or he is But in this case we have to take that into consideration You keep that information when you see this these big body language movement movements happening and his forehead We see little or no movement in his eyebrow or his forehead in his brow area and something that's this emotion Should be this emotionally charged. We're seeing nothing We see nothing not much eyebrow movement Except one of the parts where Mark was talking about rise is his brow went up when he when he said his name So this is one of those things where we'll start tracking this because Throughout this we'll see the hallmarks of a psychopath as we go through this at the same time We'll be gathering this information to see that he's being deceptive about all this so remember right out of the gate You can't this is where absolutists Are created where they say oh, I know now and he does this that means they're lying It doesn't mean they're lying or being deceptive you have to watch and remember as you go down the questions happen He only does this when he's talking about his family and that situation That's when he starts rocking back and forth. Otherwise. He's just straight ahead. He's staying there straight So that's what I've got for that Greg. What do you got? Yeah, so let's talk for a minute about baseline because I've watched this guy There's actually another video of him before he gets in trouble in 2012 talking about how to maintain a strong relationship and not Screw around on your wife and that kind of thing irony whatever but What we notice is this is kind of an adapter for him this I call it chained elephant shifting weight from the right to left legs Politicians do it when they're uncomfortable until they're coached What we'll notice is that that will change frequency. It will get faster and maybe even shorter and faster as he gets more stressed That's an adapter in a way to release nervous energy. It's a way of making the uncomfortable comfortable. That's all it is So we talk a lot about fight or flight on here So let me talk for about 30 seconds on what fight or flight is Your brain is pretty simple. It's there to protect your body the body being the most important thing to the brain at the moment When you're in a bind so the amygdala what happens when you first get stimulus is a thalamus in your in your little brain Sends a signal to the neocortex to say hey Here's this thing going on and at the same time sends that signal down to the amygdala And there's one on each side of your head one's more responsible for positive memory one for negative memory But it gets the first vote because that's why we're still alive is if it mistakes a bear for a rock You don't reproduce if it mistakes a rock for a bear well then so what and so the amygdala gets first vote And it decides whether you go into fight or flight and whether you run away That's quite simply it and then it dumps hormones through the adrenal cortex and other parts of your body to start Getting you ready to fight and when it gets you ready to fight it does a handful of things it takes blood away from your skin and Leaves it pale takes blood away from your digestive and reproductive systems So mucus membranes dry up and their signals to each of those running down vagus nerves and that that affect your body And then of course your blink rate increases because your eyes are dry and your eyelids are trying to wet them And those are all things you can see from the outside Now it also causes you to try to make yourself comfortable because you're uncomfortable pupils dilate There's other things that you really don't care about when you're watching somebody like their bladder expands So they don't know they have to urinate and that kind of thing But all of those pieces are tied to your autonomic nervous system and they're there to protect the organism and make you get out Of the way or fight back. We're just joking about fighting earlier. There's an interesting piece What it does to you is turn off your thinking brain that neocortex now doesn't matter So the amygdala is running the show and it will start taking away that brain and what's telling about this guy And you're gonna see it starting right now is when that happens you lose language because then neocortex is your language friend and When we talk about things like mark you call them filler words. Those can also become adapters like like like And when you run out of words you start trying to make sense out of what you were saying and we're gonna see that a lot So we're gonna see him sway more. We're gonna see his blink rate increase We're gonna see a bunch of things happen But the words start clustering for those and you'll find where he's starting to tell you lies a few interesting things he does show grief Almost a micro expression just for a second there, but it's not profound It's not what I expect when my wife and kids are missing and he does a hard eye contact for persuasion and then My favorite he's talking about a dog being in the house getting a scent when the dog barks watches blink rate It's Amazing to watch then he goes into a slight smile of helplessness and the way you can see that smile of helplessness is the forehead has Concern the eyes are large because they're afraid and you get that weird little smile those three things are not good Indicators together now. We can't tell what's going on inside his head of course because we are not mind readers We're reading symptoms what I think is going on is because now we know he killed his wife and kids He's afraid of being discovered Could there be a reason for him to have a smile of terror discomfort or fear because his wife's missing sure But we'll see a lot more of these clusters and I'll bring this up over and over and over as we see more of it chase What do you got? Yeah going with no context whatsoever his behavioral table development scores of 12 but the definitive study on this was done by Yardley Wilson and Lines and They classified family killers or people who killed their families into four categories The first one is self-righteous then we have disappointed Anomic and Finally we have paranoid the self-righteous is usually concerned with suffering will torture Younger people in front of the the mom in order to maximize suffering here. We have a disappointed case Where his life is not satisfying with them anymore So I'm just gonna delete that part and start my life again. Anomic is mostly concerned with economic income It's associated with my family and finally the paranoid part is people who are thinking I need to kill in order to protect them and that's that's specifically to from the president from the police from the CPS workers or from aliens no matter what it is that would be that part They need to go away the only way that they're gonna be Protected as if they're dead, but right here. We have the dissatisfaction this Disappointed mindset here. I think it's interesting to just take note of that knowing that with hindsight as we look at the the next few clips Chris Watts WATTS What's going on right now Right now, it's got canine units the sheriff's department Everybody's like they're they're doing their best right now to figure out like if they can get a cent See where they went if they went on foot they went in a car or they went somewhere Right now, it's just like they've they've been on point They're going through the house trying to get a cent and hopefully they can pick something up to where it's it's gonna lead to something We good right What happened? I should like she came home from the airport 2 a.m. And I left around 5 15. She was still here and Like about 12 10 and that afternoon her friend Nicole showed up at the door Like I had texted she had a few times a day called her say you know But she never got back to me But she wasn't getting back to any of her people as well And that's what really concerned a lot of people is like she's not getting back to her Like she doesn't get back to me. That's fine. Like she gets busy during the day But she didn't get back to her people which was very concerning and Nicole called me when she was at the door and that's when I came home and then walked in the house and Nothing vanished. Nothing was here. I mean she wasn't it. She wasn't here the kids weren't here. Nope. Nobody was here All right, Greg. What do you got? Yeah, something to be a little long-winded here because really If you can't see this guy's brain is not in gear. You really are missing the boat word choice Right anytime you're talking about people you love and you talk about use his words like nothing was here not my family was not here and The choices of words other people or many people were a lot of people was a word a lot of people were concerned Well, how about you? You know if I were interviewing him I would ask a few questions. Of course. He wasn't so anyway You're starting to see the compounding of fight or flight in him See that tongue jut out His lips are dry. He's trying to wet his lips and you make all that a grooming or an or or some other kind of gesture Or it could just be his lips are dry and it's just he's starting to feel the impacts of this He's rocking more his arms are tightening We call these barriers when somebody puts her and just because you put your arms in front of you It doesn't mean anything But most of the time when somebody is feeling Threatened they will put their arms in front of them and their hands will be free So they can get them loose and do something with them if you're comfortable you may cross your arms and just bunch Your hands in so just crossing your arms means nothing But when you cross your arms and you're hugging your body and you're rocking now it's starting to catch up with him So I'm gonna coin a phrase here for him. We'll call it his sway rate instead of his blink rate. How's that? We'll look at his sway rate as we go forward He also has increased respiration as he gets to a lot of people and you'll hear him scramble for words as he Gets to it when he says a lot of people then oh, oh, it's no big Here's cadence shift when he says no big deal that she wasn't talking to me But her friends click click click. He fills that in very quickly Too much information then went and that's when I came home Okay, where were you before that? Why what were you doing would have been my question there? And then he says and the dog barks watch his respiration that dog barks again I love this part of this entire video because I'm not sure if that's the police dog But we all know that those dogs bark when they identify like body fluids or that kind of stuff on the floor So I could hear him doing that Another word poor word choice was nothing and Then he realizes he raises one shoulder and he fills in the blanks again guys Progressively everything we look at reduced illustrators no illustrators except when he's talking about that the friend coming over the sway frequency He's increasing his respirations increasing fight or flight everywhere. He's screaming fight or flight Chase what do you got? Right after the person the interviewer says what happened? I want you to take a look because the video is about to play You'll see a smile And it's horrifying when I took a look at it. It is horrifying. There's an actual smile there and Then it's this is before he starts answering. There's a sharp kind of a hidden inhale a Lip-lick a single shoulder shrug and a head shake which before he starts answering his deception score is a 16 This is not counting Greg's quote chained elephant movements here or his sway rate and when he says It was 5 15 His eyes move up to 12 o'clock to recall a time Then when he says 12 10 the eyes shoot up to the 10 o'clock position and I think this is his deception area So I want you to keep this in mind when his eyes move to like the 9 or 10 o'clock area For the next few videos take a look at what he's saying when the eyes move to that exact position Walked in the house And he's describing the house There's a sudden complete absence of pronouns while he's going through this entire thing which is even more deceptive here But guess what he does when he's talking about walking into the house his eyes move to 10 o'clock and This is his baseline for deception in less than 40 seconds. We've got this Mark chase. Let me add one thing to it. Watch his eyes Here's the thing regardless of what you think an eye movement when people are thinking their eyes go somewhere If he's telling the truth this time he's not going to be telling the truth next time because he's changing up watch his eyes Mark So, let me put myself in his shoes now. Obviously. I'm I'm not him. We're not the same person We can't govern or judge other people's behaviors by our own But it is you know sometimes an interesting starting point to start thinking about the behaviors that you see going well But what would I do in that situation if it were me? I wouldn't want to be bound up like well This is kind of what we're seeing at the moment in that shot bound up like this because I'd want my Illustrators out there because I'd be wanting to describe to the interviewer look Here's what happened and because the better picture I can create for that audience The more likely it's gonna be that something will trigger in their mind and they'll go Hey, I saw something or or I think I might have some information for you because you know I want my my kids and my wife back. So my illustrators would be would be out there I'd also be leaning forward into the story. I wouldn't be Found up and trying to keep away from the story. Yeah, I'd be I'd be if I were doing any rocking motion I'd be wanting to rock forward into this story rather than rock side to side around it I'd also want to be mentioning the names of people and their relationship to me I'd be wanting to say, you know, my wife's name my kids name and that relationship wife my kids He's not mentioning names or and certainly in the case of the wife He doesn't seem to be describing anything of the relationship and then for me. He minimizes and distances almost negates by saying Nothing was here That for me is the biggest red flag there that use of the vocabulary of nothing was here then we see he goes back to correct himself and try and attach human beings and Relationships to things, but it's a bit late by them. Would you ever say? Say to an interviewer, you know, I went it when you're talking about your wife and your kids Okay, or any any solid relationship important relationship. Yeah, I went in and nothing was there They're not things they're human beings and again, so for me it starts to flag okay, that's kind of interesting that he's seeing these these people as Objects essentially and not relational to him Might be an insight into the personality that we have here Scott. What do you got? All right Well, we see him lick his lips as he comes into this and he's still doing that that thing of his mouth where it's like this A lot of people are gonna think that stress mouth. It's not yet It's gonna be later on but right now he's still working his way up his limb the limbic system has been triggered So we're slowly seeing the stress build and build and build now what he's doing in this case When you would you have a I used to have a little a month It looked really cool to a really like a mustache and a little beard things. I can't grow it out here For say it just looks horrible, you know, it looks like a hobo or something even when I'm in full beard So when you get that you start doing this all the time And you start goofing around little hairs there and you pull on with your teeth and stuff That's what he's doing. That's a habit. That's little ticky's got right there, but at the same time It's become an adapter. So as he's talking to this as he's being asked these questions He's using that adapter as he's thinking and the whole time. He's waiting here Is he's waiting for these questions to be asked? He's waiting for the bombshell question He's waiting for him to really come in strong on and so every time it isn't he so you almost seem relaxed a little bit As he moves forward and the answer that so that's just an adapter at this point We don't see stress mouth. However, it does look it's starting to look like it when he's again Let's take into consideration what we saw the last video the big swaying and stuff It almost stops here almost stops not completely as he goes back and forth as he's talking about the facts When he's talking about the girl coming over where the situation was when he starts talking about facts That's when he starts slowing down But then it increases when he starts talking about the wife and kids and that tells us there's an issue there And if you pay close attention to it, you'll see you'll you'll see this this Behavior goes in our pile of deception cues that we've seen so far That we don't we don't know for sure. They are so far a few of them that we that we've already seen Because we haven't seen enough to be able to tell yet because there are no absolutes for pretending. We haven't seen this yet We will just say those look kind of those look questionable and we see those quite often when something like that happens Then we have his blink rate. It's still slow. It's it's it's not it flutters a couple of times But nothing big nothing major to go all look He's got, you know, his eyes are fluttering because of this that or the other thing We don't see enough of it yet, but his eye contact is still still tight He's still in that romance or groove that he's got going with this guy trying to pay attention Making sure that the guy believes him and that everything is sounds the way it should because he's rehearsed this thing He's rehearsed in here as but I'm sure he's told the story quite often So he's got so far. He's got a pretty good handle on how that story should go Keep in mind when he starts talking about facts, he slows the swaying down But at the same time when he does he starts talking faster things speed up when he starts talking about The facts when he's the what the things that really happened when he starts talking about talking to somebody on the phone You're all came over to do doesn't and he starts talking faster Probably just to get that out of the way because he doesn't need to think about that So his baseline I'm thinking it's probably a little faster when he usually talks But at this point he's talking sour so he can pay attention to everything he says All these things we're seeing indicate they denote they suggest that he's heading into not limbic overload But his limbic system is really firing up here And he's really trying to keep it under control and trying to look cool The only thing that's really bad on them is the swaying and sway rate is pretty much the same right now But it's it's going and we see it the whole time Except for when he's talking about a relaying facts things that actually happened She came home from the airport 2 a.m. And I left around 5 15. She was still here and Like about 12 10 and that afternoon her friend Nicole showed up at the door like I had texted She had a few times a day called her say you know But she never got back to me But she wasn't get back to any of her people as well and that's what really concerned a lot of people's like She's not getting back to her like she doesn't get back to me That's fine like she gets busy during the day, but she didn't get back to her people Which was very concerning and Nicole called me when she was at the door and that's when I came home and then walked in the house and Nothing vanished. Nothing was here. I mean she wasn't she wasn't here the kids weren't here No, nobody was here All right, we good. Yeah, will you be posting those pictures of you with the moustache? So actual panelists can decide if it did look cool because you just saying it looked cool. That's you know, that's not evidence I called her three times texted her about three times just to say, you know What's going on like I did I could after that for the after I called her and texted her once is like Maybe she was just busy like she just got back, you know, like everybody's probably calling her from her trip she just got back from Arizona and I figured just you just busy, but when her friend showed up that's what it was like It registered like all right. This isn't right All right, Greg. What do you got? Yeah, so I told you listen for his brain to go out of gear trying to scramble As his body is trying to take over and get away like like like like like six likes Because they're asking him something hard and chase you're dead on when he's going over here He's using his brain in one way when you ask him questions about how many times he called or texted I'm sure he did that as a cover his eyes go over here. He goes to a different part of his brain So he's going to a different place for recall than he was going earlier. So Okay, does it mean that he is lying about something? Yeah I mean with 90% likely that he's lying about something just different part of his brain His eyes are moving and people can tell you that eye movement doesn't matter It does when a person's moving around in their head to new places for a piece of information They should be recovering from the same place. There's an indicator. There's a baseline deviation That's what you're after doesn't mean I know what he's thinking. It means I'm going to ask that next question He's sucking on that facial hair thing, you know in a kind of a grooming adaptor move He does request for approval when he says I called her about three times He raises his brow waiting for approval and with a confirming glance And then his sway rate is up now He you're dead on earlier Scott when he's telling the truth or when he's stating facts his illustrators come up his sway rate Slows and his speech pattern comes up. So all that stuff comes up. He's got six six Six likes He is looking around and he blink blink blinks and it makes hard eye contact again back into romance or that's plenty for me I don't think there's you know, this thing is so full. We'll all have plenty to talk about Scott. What do you got? All right Again, we are seeing that that mouth adapter. It's not stressed mouth yet, but we're getting close That's good. It's gonna happen a little bit later on now We got to keep in mind this swaying thing we're seeing this is again I won't say one more time This is how I absolute it's our born when they see something to go I that person swaying back and forth So that means you're lying never we saw it in the in that video on Chris Watts So that's not what we're saying here. That's not what's happening. It's just happens to be part of what's going on Having said that up to this point We can say this is now showing us it could be seen as a deception Q because of the way things have changed when he's talking about his family We would have noticed that he was swaying back and forth when he's talking about anything else He's talking about water facts that we know that we know are true already not knowing his story That's when he straightens up and slow and slows down So that that behavior of the back and forth thing is not an absolute. Let's keep that in mind now Something I found very interesting was a micro expression when he says she had just gotten back That did you see that part of his mouth go up and that denotes it indicates disdain or contempt for her Later on we're gonna find out that he had what he calls an emotional discussion with her as we know now from his When he confessed they got in the fight about their relationship knows that that's when everything went sideways and he ended up killer It's hard. It's tough to notice that when you're talking to someone like that, but you try to keep those things in mind You see that you can't run back say what did he say when you're doing this live? So you have to go back and watch video at that point if you're an investigator or an interrogator You have to look at it and from that point of view from that perspective I've got to take some time out and go look at this because I think this is what I saw When he touches his face with his finger right there during that lie That's an adapter at large. They don't get much bigger than that We could bang it comes up and does that number wow cuz he's right in the middle of the light at that point All these things now that we've seen in in the in the past during these videos leading up to this are now We can start considering those as deception cues And we start putting those in the pile of deception because we know which ones to put in the pile of the truth Because we know the girl came or they know she called they know she came over all those things They can sussles out fairly quickly. So yeah, that did happen But right here we can put those other ones all over here in the deception pile and it's starting to grow Okay, Chase. What do you got? So some lip retraction immediately so we're starting to see I want you to pay attention to this There's we'll talk about it in a second But a lot of his deception indicators are piling up before he starts answering So before he gets to answer as he's realizing the nature of the question that's coming along. I Think he doesn't realize That he is being judged Before he starts answering I think in his mind the moment he starts speaking is when he needs to be on and Right here. I'm surprised Greg and Scott didn't say it this is a textbook perfect example of Fading facts as you guys like this color Yeah, so the volume starts up here and ends out down here so he starts the conversation and it just kind of trails off into the end and He says after I called and texted once with an eyebrow flash a no head shaking a single-sided shoulder shrug Facial touching both solar shrugs and eyes moving to that lie spot that we talked about earlier Which is 10 which is a 22 on the behavioral table of elements and keep in mind you just need an 11 To be judged as likely Deceptive he says Friends showed up his eyes move towards the front door of his house which is over there So this is just a physical reference. I don't think it is an eye movement whatsoever and After his statement if you're wanting to know when to look for blink rate for deception It typically about 60 70 percent of time is after someone starts or after someone finishes a statement They're done talking to you and now they're really nervous about whether or not you're gonna accept it or whether or not you bought it That's all I got mark. Yeah, good Okay. Yeah, exactly content disdain a little bit of anger as well in the canine there on as you said Scott She just got back. I think it starts around. She was busy And then she just got back and it and it grows over that and then he gives it again on trip as well So, you know, it red flags for me. There is something around Getting back from that trip or the trip itself and as Scott bought up There's this idea of an argument, you know after that. So, you know good signal there Yeah, that's that's all I got on on that one You know, I think this is a really good one for us to bat around because what you just said Scott and what everybody is saying here The absolutist would say he scratched his nose. He's lying. Okay. Well, we touched his face There's an adapter doing this increasing sway rate doing this increasing blink rate. We're looking for clusters guys This guy is wrapped up in clusters of behavior that indicate something in his little noggin is on fire right now He's stressed and that's what we're looking for. We don't know what but we now we know because we know what he did But if we were talking to this guy, we would all be digging into him pretty hard right now Yeah, I'll throw one thing in here, too. When he's talking about she didn't answer my calls or texts and that's fine. I Think he is explaining character that is missing. I think he's explaining and offering some self-control and Nice guymanship that is not there That's good I called her three times texted her about three times just to say, you know What's going on like I did I could after that for the after I called her and texted her once is like Maybe she was just busy like she just got back, you know, like everybody's probably calling her from her trip she just got back from Arizona and I figured just you just busy, but when her friend showed up that suppose like it registered like all right, this isn't right We good. Yeah I mean right now, I don't even want to just like throw anything out there like I Hope that she's somewhere safe right now and with the kids But I mean could she event because she just taken off. I don't know But if somebody has her and they're not safe like I want them back now Like that that that's what's in my head. Like if they're safe right now, they're gonna come back But if they're not safe right now, that's what that's the not knowing part like if they're not safe Last night. I was at every light in the house on I was hoping that I would just get Just ran over by the kids running in the door and just like barrel rushing me But it didn't happen and it was just a traumatic night trying to be here All right chase. What do you got? We've got my favorite here failure to make reasonable assumptions about events and suspects And this is on the read interrogation manual page 65 quote It is natural to think about possible motives perpetrators or causes of events Guilty people are gonna be much more afraid to eliminate things from the pool to eliminate suspects and Potentialities from the pool. That's why we're not hearing him say the names of his kids the names of his wife's the names of his friends The location she could have gone we want to make the pool as wide as possible. You need to search everywhere I don't even know where to start Does he like to ask himself questions? Yes. Yes, he does This is another thing that is a deviation from his baseline and He's exhibiting something that medically is called nystagmus here in psychology Terms, this is called a trans derivational search where he's his brain is trying to access his file clerk is Running around as fast as possible trying to access information and this is processing it's very akin it's the closest you can be to being fully in trance when you're completely awake and he's looking for data and His story centers around his grief his anguish Not a desire to recover the family He said it was a traumatic night for him. That was an honest statement you could see his swaying start to slow down as he was talking about how traumatic it was for him and That the second identifier that it was a traumatic night for me You can see his lips remained open after the statement. I'll pass it up to you Greg Yeah, so great call out when you look at there There are many studies that show this now, but when you look at guilty 911 callers, they don't try to get help They tell you the story. He's telling you the story. I mean this is not a 911 call But he's telling you the story and it has nothing to do with these poor kids It has to do with how he felt if he were really smart. He would shut up once he talked about the kids and Just go cold because what he's doing is showing you what he does when he's telling the truth by illustrating with his hands When he's talking about how bad his night was and then when he's talking about these kids So this guy is a piece of work. He says I hope and this first time you see a grief muscle I hope that she's somewhere safe or what words to that effect and the eye blocks only time I see the grief muscle. He knows that she's not safe at this point. There's the asymmetric smile You would call it mark uncovering the canine We know that anytime you've got the asymmetric expression on your face face It's discussed or contempt or some of that and when he's talking about his wife It's there and then he almost assaults her character. Could she have abandoned and then it's like he's alluding the fact Maybe the kids aren't with her. I hope they're together and they're safe But if they're not so there's a whole lot of stuff going on his head I think he's trying to figure out what to say to make sure that when things go wrong and he gets in a Bind something will come back and he'll have something to use but he is very he's illustrating very clearly a little bit of voice Fraby he's illustrating very clearly clearly how he felt And then he uses like in this one seven times a very short clip so we know his little brain is scrambling like a squirrel in the road trying to figure out which way to go and His frontal lobe is not working not sure how well it works when he is But we also know again. I'll go back to this rocking We know by watching a baseline of him trying to deliver a class for One of the courses he was taking at a college that when he's uncomfortable He does the shift so his sway rates up and we see all of that going Mark yeah, so again if it were me You know, I would be worried worried that people and that my wife and kids are missing I Would want to throw a lot of stuff around throw a lot of options out there, you know And he says I don't want to throw anything out there. And when he says I don't want to throw, you know Anything out there we see that canine come up yes Disgust disdain contempt anger elements of those possibly in there The swinging from side to side has gone up now We we've got to critically think some of the the swinging understand by putting his arms here He's raised his center of gravity So so, you know anybody could swing if they put that if they put there They put their hands high enough and try and stand still the body will start start swinging but This is pronounced enough that clearly there is some tension in the legs that has to be Exorcised in some way and because he can't get off and walk anywhere. He can't leave the interview He's only left with this pendulum device going on One notable thing as well watching really watching the reaction of the interviewer Eyes dead set on that interviewer to work out how's that person responding to my story And here we start as well For him to be framed as the victim here. He had a traumatic Night so poor me at a traumatic night. He starts to put himself in that narrative as a as a victim there So again, uh, we'll feel empathy for him. We'll feel sorry for him Our heart will go out to him and that should Dull our critical thinking around some of the discrepancies in the story or the behaviors that he's giving out here Scott, what do you got? Uh on this one. I'm not going to be able to uh I'm disgusted. So I'm not going to be able to approach this from a non-emotional perspective and use foul language. So I'm going to pass on this one I mean right now, I don't even want to just like throw anything out there like I hope that she's somewhere safe right now and with the kids But I mean could she event could she just take it off? I don't know. But if Somebody has her and they're not safe. Like I want them back now Like that that that's what's in my head. Like if they're safe right now, they're going to come back But if they're not safe right now, that's what that's the not knowing part like if they're not safe Last night. I was at every light in the house on I was hoping that I would just get just ran over by the kids running in the door and just like barrel rushing me But it didn't happen And it was just a traumatic night trying to be here All right, we good? Yep Yeah, I mean my kids are my life. I mean those those smiles light up my life And there's like I mean last night like during like I you know when they usually dinner It was just like I miss them like I mean I miss telling hey you got to eat that or you're not going to get You're just hurt, you know, and just like not going to get your snack after I miss that like I miss them You know cuddle up on their couches They have like a Minnie Mouse couch and a Sophia couch that they cuddle up on and watch no bubble guppies or something and it was just like, you know, I It was tearing me apart last night and I needed that I needed that last night and For that for nobody to be here last night and to go into their rooms And not and know that I wasn't going to turn the rain machines on I know that I wasn't going to turn their monitor on and know I wasn't going to kiss them to bed tonight. It was It was I I that's why last night was just horrible. I couldn't do it If I just I just want I want everybody to just come home like wherever they're at come home That's what I want All right, I'll go first on this one Um We're seeing that mouth habit again and now it has turned into stress now At this point because he's hanging on to it there and you can see him pressing down He sees lips pressing together there and he's prepping again. He's prepping for the question He's waiting for that bomb to drop it never drops So he's so that's almost a relief for him then he gets into this explosion Of flowers and glitter about how he loves his children and his unquestionable love About and all the little things they do and he smiles the entire time now a normal human What at this point if they're going to cry or show any emotion whatsoever If their eyebrows are going to start their brow is going to be pulled together in the middle If they're going to start showing some grief right here in their mouth their channel the forehead This would be the place in a normal human Again as we've gone along here, we've seen all the things that show us We're dealing with a psychopath not all of them, but a whole lot of them No emotion here whatsoever still talking like a robot Still not showing any emotion at all his eyebrows and it's not from Botox His eyebrows aren't moving much at all and again, we see nothing that shows us any grief whatsoever Now he's talking about his children That's the whole thing is based on what his children how much he misses him and it's all supposed to be focused on him In 64 seconds, this guy says I 27 times Now if you'll listen to he says something really quickly, but you count him I did I went through this thing about five or six times and make sure I was right on that 27 times he says the word I showing no emotion whatsoever smiling the whole time And it's not even a real smile what he's done here as psychopaths will do is they'll they'll be in the impression They should be smiling during something to show Oh, I just missed him so much and the smile should be real if he was going to do that We see no hallmarks of a real smile when you he's he's doing the smile in Impression of a smile, but when he's smiling His these parts of his mouth don't go in deep enough They don't indent when you really smile your brain is the one that pulls those parts of your mouth in so this part of your mouth Comes forward and it Deepens it in there makes these big dents in there and the same thing for the eyes You don't see this is the obituary ocular right here And when you squint and he didn't try to squint when you squint when you're smiling That makes these things wrinkle on the side But they don't wrinkle the right way because it's not your brain doing that you're doing that these facial muscles in this big Part right here is pushing up the obituary ocular, which is pushing those up and makes it squint What happens in real life when you really as dejeune a bologna? Noted is when the when they really smile and their eyes go on the side like that and make those little wrinkles It comes down like this it doesn't go up like this It comes down like this because it's happening from the inside It's pulling those not pushing on those and by the inside. I mean the brain Now the last thing he says is that's what I want That's what I after you that's the 27th eye in there And then there's a full seven seconds of stress mouth just standing there Doing that as he starts to begin that little sway part again. So that I think at this point we can Feel pretty good that we're dealing with someone we would Question about whether they were a normal human or might be a little bit headed towards psychopathy in this Personally having seen so many of them and dealt with so many of them I would go ahead and say man, we need to watch out. I think this guy's a psychopath But clinically you can't tell sometimes for six months to six months to a year But in this case, I think we're seeing enough here to go ahead and say wow This isn't good at all Especially since we already know the outcome where he's killed him And we can look at him and say there's no emotion there anywhere still talking like a robot And doing the mistaken impression of trying to smile when he's supposed to be sad and smiling He didn't put that together when he's as when he's seen Someone else smile during their sadness. He thought it was just smiling And psychopaths will do that because they don't understand emotions because they have none. They have no empathy So what they'll do is they'll see your emotion And they'll remember that and they'll copy it as they go out with their friends or people they hang out with And show them that emotion so that person will never question whether or not they have emotions or not They'll take you the emotion they see on you or someone else and they'll just copy it and show it to someone else That's how they look like they have emotions. He's he's not even doing a good job at it I can't believe the guy talking to him and saying and this is this is getting weird. Why are you acting this way? Didn't call him on it because that shouldn't be A real smile. It's not but he shouldn't be trying to make a real smile He should be sad and smile at the same time chase. What do you got? Well said 100 agree. I think there's some malignant narcissistic traits For sure in the first three seconds We have a hard swallow lip retraction eye blocking and an escape glance, which I don't think we've mentioned here before This is a horizontal a version of the gaze where the skull and eyes move both So the eyes move and the skull starts to follow it. This is searching for an exit or an escape glance or escape gaze The word like is coming into play 700% more than his baseline. I spent an hour watching this piece of Human on youtube today his youtube videos Communicates uncertainty and is This is a linguistic tool He's using the word like as a unconsciously as a linguistic tool to create vagueness With the hope that vagueness will create some understanding In the long run, it'll be easier to relate to because I'm not certain about this stuff Not one single team pronoun here in a statement like scott said he doesn't say we would do this I missed I missed them. We would all do this us We need us back together He did all the parenting according to his stories. He didn't say we would turn on their Noise machines. We would put them to bed. We would be watching the movie together And he finalizes his statement with eye blocking blink rate at 93 per minute Granted somebody might say there's a tv camera around which might make him a little more nervous The average tv camera blink rate when someone's on television is 21 Greg Yeah, so a couple of things. Well, I agree with you. He's using like I think that He's just a roach with when lights come on when he uses a word like I don't think that anything's in there I think this is just his brain going And trying to fill in blanks and that's his word, right if he used a word like Chicken and he would be saying chicken seven times whatever it is because he can't think of the right word He's just going to roll something off of his tongue And if you watch his video even when he was teaching this course He has filler words all the time because when he's uncomfortable. He does that So mark you talk about peach all the time. Let me talk for a minute about horses Horses have this thing called weaving and it's considered a vice if you have a horse who has The weaving vice you have to say Hey, this horse weaves because it wears their joints out and they do this And what you notice in a horse is that they do it when they're nervous And then more nervous they get the shorter the stroke and the more frequent it becomes Watch what's happening. He's not swaying as smoothly. It's getting to be more frequent and shorter stroke So interesting to watch the effects of stress on his brain and you're seeing it and you're chase your head and dead on I call it oblique angling that escape That look away. It's the guy in the standing looking at his watch Looking past his watch to the bus that you were joking around with It's that move trying to get away and get that head out of the way So, you know, don't leave with your jaw. I have it on my notes as well The only time he was really illustrating is he did say I want them back. I'm sure he's thinking What did I do? Not because he feels for them because I don't think he has any feelings But because he realizes this is going to come to an ugly end for him I think he can see that with all those dogs in there You watch his barriers get tighter His blink rate just goes through the roof there at the end because he realizes that this thing is tightening in And we're going to hear harder and harder questions as this goes I can't say I feel any sorry any sorrow for him Guys, if you wonder why we giggle about things like this, it's because Comeuppance is a good thing for this guy And so watching him do something stupid and get look like a worm on a griddle doesn't bother any of us It's just the way it is and that's where we're at. Is that everybody or Mark yeah, Mark. Yeah um So he's being torn apart. So he so he says last night he was getting torn apart and and he needed his Kids, he said I needed that I needed that So to chase this point what we have there are some examples of of narcissism where where the others in his life Are there in order to feed his well-being his emotional well-being or he or or his practical well-being Yes, if it's malignant narcissism and he's psychopathic It's a really really bad combination the kind of combination That could potentially commit the kind of act That he did in the end, which is if you know about that it's it's It's pretty out there uh, I Okay, so he says I miss them an optimist would say I'm missing them right now He says I miss them that has a finality For me that even if I didn't know the outcome. I would be going. Why is he not have Hope Right now what I've experienced with others in similar positions, but not the bad actors In in in this situation is they tend to have they hang on to an optimism Whether it's something religious or just a general optimism. They tend to form words around that He doesn't seems very final um And then yeah, so so frames himself very much again as the victim here with everybody else being part of holding him Together and his well-being the finality of I miss them And then uh, I think as scott was saying we get this long lip compression at the end Which is nothing like we've seen before on I want, uh, everyone to come home Huge lip compression on that there. That's what I got on that one excellent Yeah, I mean my kids are my life I mean those those smiles light up my life And this like I mean last night like during like, you know when they usually dinner It was just like I miss them like I mean I missed telling. Hey, you got to eat that or you're not going to get You're just hurt, you know, and just like you're not going to get your snack after I missed that like I missed them, you know cuddle up on their couches They have like a Minnie Mouse couch and a Sophia couch that they cuddle up on and watch no bubble guppies or something and it was just like, you know, I It was tearing me apart last night and I needed that I needed that last night and for that for nobody to be here last night and to go into their rooms And not and know that I wasn't going to turn the rain machines on I know that I wasn't going to turn their monitor on and know I wasn't going to kiss them to bed tonight It was It was I That's why last night was just horrible. I couldn't do it If I just I just want I want everybody to just come home. Like wherever they're at come home That's what I want. All right, we good. Yep It wasn't it wasn't like an argument we had emotional conversation, but I'll leave it at that but it's I just want them back I just I just want them to come back and if If they're not safe right now, that's what's that's what's tearing me apart because If they are safe, they're coming back. But if they're not this this this has got to stop like somebody has to come forward Yeah, they've been in constant contact like every hour. I mean, it's I mean everybody back in North Carolina and east coast I mean from Maine to Florida All right Work what you got? Yeah, so this is the first time we see a fuller shot so we can actually see that he's protecting Uh, one of his joints here So it's not, you know, because it could be could be cold. Couldn't he could be cold It's he's raised the center of gravity and so no, but it's not he's he's protecting a joint here Which suggests to me under stress um What kind of sings out to me in this is the pleasant look he has all the way through this It's not quite a smile It's just pleasant. It's just a pleasant day for him right now And that is for me totally incongruent Totally incongruent with this he he remains with that pleasant air on his face gentle smile All the way through very incongruous Again, he goes for uh, it's it's tearing me apart frames himself as the victim and then This has got to stop Well, the this that he's talking about because he doesn't know You know, uh, if if if the story were a story where he's not the perpetrator He doesn't know what's happened to them and he's come up with no solutions as to it So he doesn't know so that this can't be what he imagines is happening. It has to be his own state This has got to stop So now I think we're seeing the tension and pressure that he's under under and he wants this to stop For him again. That is a a relatively narcissistic trait Even if even if he weren't the perpetrator and there were the possibility that they've been abducted Um, the the the wife has run off with the kids taken them away Um, whatever it might be you possibly wouldn't say well, this has got to stop Because the focus wouldn't be on you It would be on them and there is no focus at the moment on them Their state their potential state Their safety there's nothing around that and for that reason It if I was seeing this fresh and this has just come up on the news Alarm bells would be going off for me Because I'd be going why do you care so much about yourself and not them in this particular situation? Chase what do you got? Most of his nervous behaviors. We're starting to see more now our anticipatory in nature in anticipation and in my career I don't know how many thousands of hours. I've I've been doing this I've noticed this is a lot more common in people involved with sports and athletes You can even go back to the oj. Simpson interrogation, I think the detective's name was john venader and You watch those tapes and watch him being questioned or or deposed. You can see the same thing You see it with a lot of athletes There's some digital flexion finally Finally Right in the pinky excellent Right in the pinky So that digital flexion is a stress response And if we're breaking body language down, I have to teach you body language in three seconds The body's either closing or opening. That's how I would teach it to you So we see that digital flexion the fingers are pulling in towards the palm and it's great It's right there on on his arm And I wrote down here mark taught me this We were Having a glass of wine or something somewhere Yeah Mark taught me this thing about the joints and I've started to see it In a lot more places than I thought I would and I truly believe it And I think when he says I want them back He's more concerned with the rapport with the interviewer than anything else So that's what he's done his whole life is mimic and build rapport and build trust with people So he defaults to that script or that narrative that is just programmed in him and This is common in guilty people because innocent people are more likely to open the floodgates No matter what it's guilt or shame or anger or sadness. They're a lot more willing to open this stuff up This is research from a guy named vridge. I think everybody here has seen his name I think it was 1999 And it continues to make no mention Of these people's names, which is shenan Bella And cc. I hope you guys remember it because I won't say this guy's name Uh, I'll pass it to you great Yeah, so there's I used to say to my kid every morning. I wake up a monkey every night I hope to go to bed a human there's a lot of monkey in us a lot of behavior patterns that emulate apes And one of those is nervous smiles that when you're in a bind and you go hey Chumps show their teeth when they're nervous or terrified And when we're not cognizant of what we're doing We can do all kinds of weird things with our face And if you I think ackman said that there were 19 smiles and the smiles are most complex of all human communication If i'm wrong, you guys write it down below But I think I recall that being correct. It's been a while and you see here This face that's connected in some weird way an awkward kind of a smile that doesn't fit And there's still asymmetry in the smile all at the same time He's signaling all kinds of confused things and scott I know you're going to wrap this part really good because you're going to tell everybody why he's doing that but He just he's asked a question. Did you argue with your wife and that question's clear? It's coming across the bow What would you say if you didn't no no we didn't you wouldn't say we had an emotional discussion Okay, that's softening whatever happened Right there I'd want to dig in if I'm talking to this guy because he's had he's hiding and hedging something He distances then he does that little weird nervous smile again And Every one of you has made a mistake in your life Done something that didn't feel like a mistake when you were doing it You wanted to do it and then you got busted and you all did that weird little smile too It's how when we ask a question in interrogation someone laughs We know they did it They may not realize they're doing a laugh or smile. It's a nervous release He does that So we're paying attention to that that's asymmetric signaling and then this barrier gets tighter and mark I appreciate that covering the joints piece. I also think he's keeping that hand free, right? No one is going to trap their hands if they're under high threat So we're seeing that and then let's leave it with words that he says It wasn't like an argument. It was an emotional conversation, but I'll leave it at that That means I'm not talking about that anymore and then he goes into this weird logic thing. I won't cover again about if they're Safe then I didn't even follow it. It's so squirrely. It's just about they're dead and I know it and if they're safe They're safe. If they're not they're not So scott you want to wrap up his behavior? Yes Let me start here though I can't believe none of you all said this when I say as you go Oh my god because chase nailed us on one of these earlier And usually I'm checking these off because I have to do a bunch of them because the time it gets to me They're all gone He opens up with chaff and redirect He does because he says yeah because he says uh, we had an emotional conversation I'll leave it at that then he starts talking about all this other stuff and the guy just goes down that hole with him I can't believe another guy said that And you went back to it. Uh, Greg, I was like well, I'll see you. It's your chaff redirect is something Is one of your terms so I figure well here it comes. I get rid of that one So that's what we're seeing is this is this chaff and redirect But when he said that when he said we had an emotional conversation, I'll leave it that That's when he should have pulled the dr. Phil and climbed right on up in that cullin and let him have it Because that the door pardoned upon is wide open at that point. You can say hold on this man What are you talking about? Where are we going with this? What do you what do you mean? You Had an emotional conversation. What is it? But he doesn't he's okay. I just let some go on mind blowing how use that was And I think the reason that we're seeing that that weird smile because again, he doesn't know what emotion to use He's seen somebody use the smile as they're sad trying to go, you know, I just I'm trying to get through this horror You know challenge that Kind of thing, but he doesn't know how to do it. He's doing it wrong So that's why we're seeing those all that weird confusion on his face He's seen people do it and he's tried to do it earlier and he's trying to do it one more time So that's why that's why I think it looks so confusing at that point Then he says I just want them back You kidding me? Really? It's it's unbelievable unbelievable how How lame that was and the the interviewer let him get away with it. Now that might not be that the interviewer the News guy from tv, you know, the the guy who goes out the reporter gets the story He basically go asking these questions and bring it back and let it together Maybe in a situation like that But if this guy is any kind of of interviewer, he should be ashamed of himself for not Stopping it right then and going. Hey, man. You know, we got to get into this He's we're going to hold on everybody check this out should have really gotten up his hide in on that one and It's that it and then that same going back again to wrap that thing up That we're seeing the confusion because he doesn't know how to give the the correct or proper Emotion in this situation and he thinks he does but he's doing it wrong in other words And now this might be a tough question, but Did you guys get into an argument before? It wasn't it wasn't like an argument. We had emotional conversation, but I'll leave it at that but it's I just want them back I just I just want them to come back and if If they're not safe right now, that's what's that's what's tearing me apart because If they are safe, they're coming back But if they're not this this this has got to stop like somebody has to come forward He's will be our family like our parents. Yeah, they've been in constant contact like every hour I mean, it's I mean everybody back in North Carolina and the east coast I mean from main to florida Right. We good. Yep. Yeah What is her parents saying to you like I just like like if they need to get on a flight Just let them know because I mean they don't they they feel helpless right now because they they're on the outside of the country I mean, Colorado is I mean You can't just drive around and look. I mean it's just like you wouldn't really know what you're looking for That's what the cops pretty much told me that that first day. I was like, I want to get out and drive around You wouldn't know what to look for All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so just a couple of things. Remember we talked about the sway rate It's not slowed. It's constrained. So he's moving He does a request for approval raises his forehead when he's telling you why he didn't go out and look because the cops told him He wouldn't know what he's looking for His point rates up and that's all I got Scott, what do you got? All right, this way like you just said the swaying stops almost completely because he's relaying facts He's talking about what happened there. So he's not worried. He's not got his family on his mind And it doesn't have that set of information that he's been spewing out earlier That he has to worry about or pay attention to or that's making the stress level go through the roof Um and going back from the very beginning up to this point We've seen when he's talking about family when he's talking about things that happen He's talking about the what the police did or what people are doing Then he's he's stopped swaying. He just stands there as he's talking We see his illustrators get bigger a lot larger Usually when someone's being deceptive, you'll see the illustrators as we've seen throughout this this these videos Come to a halt almost as he may be moving back and forth Illustrators are things you used to your brain emphasizes specific words and phrases like I did just then And so now he's that swaying his hand around making a slapping noise on his elbow And going to the joint thing you guys were talking about you'll also people see people Cover their their knuckles and their fingers this way with the other hand Does expose these but they are covering them is an adapter and they're also most of the time squeezing But you'll see that as well when it comes to Covering joints and that's why then they rub their legs. It'll be on their knees those Those style of curries. All right mark. What do you got? Yeah, so the biggest one for me is the big swallow on the mention of the parents So I think the parents are a threat in this situation if the parents actually he said, you know fly down Sure come come on over But hey, you know the police are telling me you wouldn't even know what to look for there's just really no point Because I guess the parents are a big threat here in that they would Potentially not give up. They would search longer and longer. They wouldn't cover more They would be able to get into the relationship. So I think, you know, big swallow there on the parents is Is indicative there of there is a bigger threat In his mind with them chase. What do you got? This little you know what? Didn't even have time to start a go fund me before any of this stuff Which some of them do I think it's interesting He's uh, he's finding it easier to use his hands to gesture and talk about stuff because he's mostly telling the truth here Um, so there's three phases A person does they commit a crime they go through three phases before they talk to the police most of the time This is rationalization projection and denial planning And this is from me, but the rationalization I did this because the projection These are all the reasons this is who could be responsible the environment my childhood Society social media all this other stuff and then denial planning now I'm going to kind of craft a story Or figure out, you know, I'm just going to rehearse saying I didn't do it on the car in the car on the way to the police station So you kind of go through those three phases And you see that he's in this third phase. He's already got to this this third phase already He's got his denials planned out And I think a lot of what we're seeing here keep in mind We talk about how this stuff is very tactical and calculated made to make up another person feel a certain way It's unconscious He he's not he doesn't have some mastermind Playbook on how to control human emotion An idiot could do some of this stuff because he's been doing it since he was young I just wanted to put that out there that this is not a smart Person it's a person who has these innate skills Mostly due to a lack of emotion What is her parents saying to you I just like If they need to get on a flight just let them know because I mean they don't they feel helpless right now because they're on the outside of the country I mean, Colorado is I mean Can't just drive around and look I mean it's just like You wouldn't really know what you're looking for. That's what the cops pretty much told me that that first day I was like I want to get out and drive around this you wouldn't know what to look for Okay, we're good Right now, this is what they're doing right now is with the k9 in the sense I think this is the biggest thing this is the biggest thing they've done so far because Yesterday they all federally department did all the searching of the house and try to gather whatever information they could And with the detectives officers and sergeants and today it's I mean obviously with all the activity that's around it's It's it's there's a lot going on around here And I really hope that all of this can lead to something positive All right Greg what do you got? Yeah, so chase when you're talking about why people lie whatever they make up whatever cause They also have to think about how they're actually going to deliver the lie And so Scott and I talk about a trigger Trigger in this case is he killed his wife and family So he had to start making up details already and he knows where he's got stronger weak story You don't have to be smart to know that if you say hey, I went to work today and I went to this place They might go there and check it So he's trying to avoid all of that and that's just that's a style of avoidance We talk about lies of omission. So he's had a trigger. He's fabricated what he wants to talk about And he's deconflicted. He's not going to talk about work. He's not going to talk about anything And every time he gets the chance When he's pitching he's gonna when he's telling his lie is he's going to redirect and get away from it And that's what he does here when they're asking questions about what the police are doing That's a rambling bunch of nothing. He has riveted eye contact He's back Scott in romance or from what we talk about in true crime His blink rate is up and he's licking his lips. He also is doing kind of that Drawn back mark. You'll talk about bitter taste in some of his mouth Disgust and his swallow He's swallowing pretty heavy He's back to some facts because he jumped off the thing about his family and he's now talking He's now jumped off and he's talking about something else entirely In this entire thing. I hope that something positive can come out of this Well If I were missing my wife and my kids I would know what the positive thing I want to happen is and I would be Somebody helped me find my wife and kids. He knows that's not possible So he's hedging and I think you're right chase. He's not the sharpest tool in the in the drawer. So that's the way it is Chase, what do you got? Yeah, so I think it's a non-answer To begin with which is deceptive in its own He the interviewer asked, what are the police saying and he talks about what the police are doing And we have three categories of that deceptive behavior can fall into and this is preparatory Delivery and review Like at the review phase I'm looking. Did you believe me? I'm assessing what I said. I'm planning. What's going to happen next And if you want to see it at the very beginning of this as he realizes what the question is about Blink rate is over 100. You've been waiting for an example of this on the behavior panel So the panelists finally get a chance to see what it looks like over 100 blink rate Also lip licking in preparation phase more deceptive hard swallow I hope this leads to something positive, which is his innocence is what he's thinking about And his answer his entire answer is like a mental Thesaurus Like we have this and this and this and here's another word for it And they're doing this and here's another word for that and another word for that So it's just trying to give out as much information as he can to sound smart well informed Who the hell knows? I don't give a crap Scott okay All right, so as he's uh Again, we see we hear that swallow. It's audible You're getting a gulp as he swallows because they're starting to talk about the sheriffs and the police department law law enforcement And that's making him nervous. So we're seeing that limbic system. It's it's it's not worn out But at this point it's been through so much. He's kind of relaxed for a minute Then he starts talking about that stuff and he stiffens up again Again, he's waiting on that possible bomb shell to be dropped on but it never happens He's still waiting for that from to dr. Film one time and get up and start trouble with him No swaying Nice sway rate is dang zero not nothing not even a little bit because he's just talking facts His illustrators get huge at this point just swinging around talking throwing his hands around And he's just relaying information about what the police are doing. So it's low stress for him and again Look at all the footage of the lying You know comparing the lying and telling the truth He's lying when he's moving around a lot When he's when he's talking about his family because that stress builds up and he starts tightening up that grip And then when he starts relaying facts when he opens like chest Jay says it's you're either closing or you open opens right up and he's like, hey It's like frank's I'm not welcome. You know, he's just opens right up and starts talking mark, what do you got? Yeah, so uh, absolutely chase like blink rate goes off the charts At that point and and just as you said scott audible gulp. I mean it comes over the mic Clear and positive. I think he's under a lot of pressure and stress right now because he starts in and greg you'll like this He starts into this jibber jabber. It's just a torrent of nonsense before he finds his form again And he really hits a list essentially he's able to give a list of law enforcement that have that have come round And he's got it all there. He says he's and he names hierarchy So what he's trying to do is go look at the list of people that are here Look how important they are. So he says canines detectives officers sergeants like we've got them all We've got them all and they're all in there And you know, there's a lot going on he says around here and that he hopes something positive comes out of it And he looks away from the house and off my guess is he's trying to put down that hierarchy of police to go look There's a lot happening here if there were anything to find They'd be finding it right now and really the positive thing is is they should all clear out and go and search Elsewhere and get out of where the hot spot might be which is not necessarily the house. I think it's him It's the concentration on him right now that is the big Pressure. Uh, so, yeah, you know, he really does name everybody involved in law enforcement there And uh And well done that he managed to form some words in the end as a shopping list of law enforcement Even to the dogs That's all I got on that one excellent Right now, this is what they're doing right now is with the k9 in the sense I think this is the biggest thing This is the biggest thing they've done so far because yesterday they all Frederick Lee department did all the searching of the house and try to gather whatever information they could and with the detectives officers and sergeants and today it's I mean, obviously with all the activity that's around it's It's it's there's a lot going on around here And I really hope that all this can lead to something positive All right, let's move along My last question if you haven't either It's a real crew deceptive my last question if your wife can see this If she if she can watch this Shanaen Bella Celeste if you're out there just Just come back like if somebody has her just Please bring her back. I need to see everybody I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete with without anybody here All right chase, what do you got? Just in the prep we talked about how he's more deceptive in preparation phase He has object insertion hygienic gesture blink rate up to 69 before even answers his question His score is a 12 interesting He has a hard eye block as he's saying I need to see everybody Because I think he's envisioning Seeing them where they are at that time in that moment. Just my opinion His repetition is Unconscious and he's trying to reaffirm that he means it so people will typically unconsciously repeat a phrase To reaffirm to themselves That they mean that phrase And when he says anybody Please call home You know, there's nothing there. He's just saying anybody who has her not like hey you guys Please call call me send me a text message. Just reached out. Just please let me know you're safe Let me know the girls are safe and It's just this is a Incredible and it finishes up with some hardcore lip retraction at the end there which which we all Saw and anything going just as a quick lesson for the for the panelists. Something passes the barrier of the teeth Most of the time that means it is a need for reassurance Uh, greg Yeah, I won't go into a whole lot here. I think Guys by this point, we've seen the sway rate all this stuff. You can see when he's lying What's more interesting to me in this is just how quickly he's off her and to somebody else I mean when what would you say to her and he says shenan he goes down list their names and then said I got to see you but then he goes to third person if anybody out there has her I need to see them It just the words i'm not complete without anybody in the house That's just weird words to talk about somebody that you love and your life revolves around Now you might be angry with your wife. You might put your children You would not even if you think your wife ran off with your children You'd be like bring my babies back whatever it is I don't care how hard you are your kids or your kids or your kids unless your something is Off in there and you're thinking of them differently But shifting quickly that third person person pronouns Chase you always hit the pronouns when he starts talking about if they and somebody else And that distancing from her that quickly is my first red flag and i'll drop at that And hand it to scott All right When he says wife that's when the stress begins to build again because that's when he starts going back and forth And then but when he says if you're out there if you're out there come back come on man when you're when When he asks this when he said every person you see that that is that if I said to you Let's me let me pose this question to the person watching if I were to ask you this Show me the face you'd make and the expressions you'd make if you're asking someone to return your kidnapped husband You kidnapped wife your kidnapped child They would say this Please their eyebrows would go and say please bring my child back I'm hoping you'll do whatever it is and that that's that's what they would say in reality Those people that do that are the ones that don't have those that don't know that emotion either That's why their eyebrows go up. What they would do is come down and say please bring my child back They're making a command to them on the way out Please bring my child back and you would see this in here like I've got there You'd see that brow Like come come together they're knitting of the brow You don't see any movement up there in this guy at all again when something would Is an emotional situation of the utmost Emotions should be coming out here. You don't even see eyebrow movement. We got nothing on this guy You know you what would you say, you know to have him come back tell the person to have him come back Well, it just talks like a robot. Everything's just just straight But remember that woman who who put her kids in the van and then ran it off into the lake and said, oh, somebody killed my You know, car jack me at the red light What's her name? Do you remember there's something right? South Carolina, they give us Susan Harris I can't remember him So if you watch that thing where she's asking her the guy to bring her kids back She's doing this her eyebrows are up Everybody in her family their eyebrows are down like this because they're trying to say they're thinking about what they would see What she she would say you see that that's one of the first cues or tips that made those police officers the detectives go Hey, man, something's up over here. You know, I knew it. I told because she's not doing this She's doing this. I just want to and they use words like I just want and I just and we just But they should be down not up like that So this is just a lame attempt at pretending to ask Whoever it is that might have his kids and his wife his pregnant wife as a matter of fact to bring him back So it's just does lame at that point mark. What do you got? Yeah, so as we've heard before He's making himself the center of this. He's casting himself as the victim. I need I need it's all about what he wants Just as everybody said there there's that moment of if there's no optimism In it, you know, if you're out there Yeah, no, look, I I I really hope you're out there. I really there's no hope. There's no positivity there The biggest thing for me Is when the interviewer is when the interview interview interview goes down And the interviewer comes to collect the mic We see his head move away now. Maybe the interviewer has got into close proximity We can understand that he might want to move his head away from there Again, if it were me, I'd be looking the interviewer Right in the eyes as they take off the mic and I'd be saying so look when is this going out? When what time does this go out? How often will it who's who's show is it going to go on? Is there is there a way we can do another one of these like is there do you know anybody else who could Like I'd be asking for more help. I'd be saying thanks so much for for doing that Politeness would be up the need for more engagement would be up Uh, nothing. It's like he's done. It's like I'm I'm I'm done with this. There is a slight hint Maybe it's me projecting because I'm I don't think I see it in the in the face I don't think so But I do get a sense of of again disdain For this interview. It's something that he shouldn't have to be doing And I think if you were truly in that position You would be going I'll do as many of these as is necessary Like do you want to do another one? Have you got everything that you need? Yeah, we don't see any of that There that's what I got Last question if you haven't seen that it's really hard to accept but my last question is if your wife can see this If she if she can watch this What would you like to tell your wife? Shanann Bella Celeste If you're out there, just just come back like if somebody has her just Please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete with without anybody here That's it So look the the thing is if you if you're watching Interviews like this and you see them go on, you know, be really careful because You can't tell from Any one little moment if somebody's a perpetrator or lying But hopefully we've shown you some of the signals that you can Look out for that might lead you closer to the truth of what's really going on here So watch out for them I agree. Yeah, look for clusters. Look for all this to change. Look for deviation around certain kinds of story and Hopefully if the person's a criminal and they're as stupid as he is and they'll stand up and give you all the signals When they're telling the truth so you can tell when they're not When he's using facts and using his hands and open to your point chase. I love that Open and closed. He's open when he's giving facts that you know are true Those are control questions and interrogation and then when he goes to Things that you don't know about he closes up and does the sway thing So he gives us a baseline. It's a great thing Yeah, and if we went through here, you saw from video one two three four five We saw these things happen over and over and over and we could tell when he was being honest and when he was being deceptive That shows you there are no Absolute you can't just say because he's swaying that means his lying You can't say because he's doing with this this with his mouth. That's not a deception or a cue for deception None of these things in and of themselves by themselves mean squad But when you start putting them together and you remember what happened what he used to do in the older videos It's coming up and he's still doing that. That's how you put these things together So when someone tells you every time you see this it means they're Being deceptive now. That's not what it is. All right. Why don't we throw it around the room and kind of give our percentages of deception mark you want to go first? Uh, yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting. I loved hearing from everybody this this difference between the the sway on deception and how it softens out during truth telling I mean look hindsight is we know he's being almost utterly deceptive Throughout so it's a tough one to to throw out a number because Because we know the reality of it awful case Um, you know, maybe we'll have something brighter and lighter next week for you. Maybe not. I don't know Uh, chase. What do you think what percentage you got? Chase what percentage you got? Uh, we know he's 100 and uh, I think prison is way too good of a place for this guy Yeah, however, uh, maybe we can do something next week Maybe another really juicy alien abduction or something for you guys Greg what are you giving percentage wise? Yeah, okay. He did detail any truth. Yeah, because we could tell we could tell from baseline But that was not his story. That was just his ability to fill while he was thinking about detail So when it comes to his story lie lie flat lie Nothing good came out of his mouth. He used truth only in a way to manipulate the interviewer. So I'm with you 100% bad guy done I hope we don't see him again Scott you want to wrap it up? I'm with you guys too. That's all we saw the only time he was telling the truth is when he was telling Who came over and who made a phone call and how the parents felt and what the police were doing That was it. That wasn't part of his story. So if we take just his story into consideration I give it 100 as well 100 lying. That's a deceptive. That's a psychopath every card I have every chip I have I put it over on the psychopath side for that guy All right, please subscribe and hit the little bell so you know, we have a new video come out They always come out on thursdays if not before if I get them edited before on wednesdays, they'll be out So we'll see you next time. Thanks so much guys All right, okay you guys ready yep Yep, here we go I'm scott rouse my body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation in body language And I don't know I get